1 00:00:04,269 --> 00:00:06,960 ALAN POWER: Welcome to the new National Trust Podcast series. 2 00:00:09,029 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm Alan Power Head Gardener at Stourhead and somebody who's 3 00:00:12,050 --> 00:00:18,030 very passionate about everything outdoors. In this series, we'll 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,940 be exploring the Trust's amazing spaces delving into the stories 5 00:00:21,950 --> 00:00:25,149 and characters that make each place so special. We'll be 6 00:00:25,159 --> 00:00:28,200 traveling all around the country from hilltop to seaside. 7 00:00:28,540 --> 00:00:31,190 We'll tread sandy paths and the polished wooden floors of 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,430 country homes. Not to mention some spectacular gardens. We 9 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:38,630 delight in bird song, sublime views and exceptionally good 10 00:00:38,639 --> 00:00:42,750 cream teas. So join me on this journey and immerse yourself in 11 00:00:42,759 --> 00:00:44,729 the wonders of the National Trust. 12 00:00:47,619 --> 00:00:50,790 In this episode, we're exploring the magnificent gardens of 13 00:00:50,799 --> 00:00:54,080 Cliveden set high above the Thames in Buckinghamshire. Just 14 00:00:54,090 --> 00:00:57,119 a stone's throw from London, This enchanting garden has been 15 00:00:57,130 --> 00:00:59,909 in the care of the National Trust since the 1940s. 16 00:01:08,879 --> 00:01:11,900 Everything about Cliveden exudes grandeur. You know, it's a 17 00:01:11,910 --> 00:01:14,699 magnificent garden. Every corner you turn around, there's 18 00:01:14,709 --> 00:01:18,940 something unique and special to see. Well, at the moment, I'm 19 00:01:18,949 --> 00:01:22,040 standing on the terrace just outside the grand house which 20 00:01:22,050 --> 00:01:23,459 overlooks the parterre. 21 00:01:23,769 --> 00:01:26,980 An ornamental garden of huge scale that was developed by the 22 00:01:26,989 --> 00:01:31,669 renowned gardener John Fleming while this area of the garden 23 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,309 was developed in the 19th century. It was based on the 24 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,209 geometric patterns and traditional Knot Gardens of the 25 00:01:37,220 --> 00:01:38,269 Elizabethan era. 26 00:01:39,279 --> 00:01:43,660 The parterre at Cliveden is particularly impressive with 2.5 27 00:01:43,669 --> 00:01:48,580 miles of hedges and topiary and over 30,000 plants. It's no mean 28 00:01:48,589 --> 00:01:49,099 feat. 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,260 My eye is immediately drawn to the parterre. You've got this 30 00:01:55,269 --> 00:01:59,309 really strong formal lines of box hedging running down the 31 00:01:59,319 --> 00:02:03,269 parterre and then within that box hedging is, is multicoloured 32 00:02:03,279 --> 00:02:05,849 bedding, impeccably laid out. 33 00:02:05,860 --> 00:02:09,309 So you can see kind of whites and reds and blues in the first 34 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,860 triangular bed and then you move into the next one and you've got 35 00:02:11,869 --> 00:02:16,100 yellows and whites and reds and you know, we are so far away 36 00:02:16,110 --> 00:02:18,429 from it and it's hard to tell what those plants are. 37 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,089 So that gives you an idea of what the scale is and then these 38 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:25,220 beautiful pyramids of Yew that just punctuate the parts you 39 00:02:25,229 --> 00:02:30,169 can't see a building or a town or an urban area here from the 40 00:02:30,179 --> 00:02:31,350 view that we're standing at. 41 00:02:35,559 --> 00:02:38,720 I did a very, very brief period in my history. I came to 42 00:02:38,729 --> 00:02:42,089 Cliveden and it was only for about eight or nine months and 43 00:02:42,509 --> 00:02:46,940 it's a garden of such scale and deep history that it's hard to 44 00:02:46,949 --> 00:02:50,440 connect with it entirely in such a short period of time. But what 45 00:02:50,449 --> 00:02:53,860 I really did take away was the variety of people that influence 46 00:02:53,869 --> 00:02:59,440 the place over the years. 47 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,250 Today Cliveden House isn't actually run by the National 48 00:03:02,259 --> 00:03:02,660 Trust. 49 00:03:02,669 --> 00:03:06,130 It's a luxury hotel, but it can be seen from many parts of the 50 00:03:06,139 --> 00:03:10,320 garden and its history is fundamental to this place. I'm 51 00:03:10,330 --> 00:03:12,979 here with one of the National Trust's volunteer historians, 52 00:03:12,990 --> 00:03:16,449 Mike Bellum to learn a little bit more about the house and its 53 00:03:16,460 --> 00:03:17,320 inhabitants. 54 00:03:19,630 --> 00:03:22,009 MIKE BELLUM: Well, we're standing at the moment by the 55 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:25,229 shell fountain which Astor put together around about 1900. 56 00:03:25,910 --> 00:03:28,770 ALAN POWER: So Mike for, for the listeners out there who haven't 57 00:03:28,779 --> 00:03:31,929 seen the spectacular house at Cliveden. Can you just describe 58 00:03:31,940 --> 00:03:33,470 it from where we are on the drive? 59 00:03:33,949 --> 00:03:36,580 MIKE BELLUM: Well, from where we are, it's sort of three stories 60 00:03:36,589 --> 00:03:38,410 goes back to 1670. 61 00:03:40,679 --> 00:03:42,970 You've got to remember that Cliveden always was used for 62 00:03:42,979 --> 00:03:46,710 entertaining when we say people lived here, they didn't really 63 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,100 live here very much. They came here for weekends or weeks in 64 00:03:50,110 --> 00:03:50,729 the summer. 65 00:03:52,710 --> 00:03:55,500 Heyday was probably around about the thirties, late twenties, 66 00:03:55,509 --> 00:03:59,669 thirties. When you had so many politicians here, you had kings 67 00:03:59,679 --> 00:04:02,710 and queens, you had Franklin Roosevelt was here with his 68 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:07,619 wife, Henry Ford, Charlie Chaplin. 69 00:04:07,970 --> 00:04:11,119 George Bernard Shaw was a regular visitor and of course 70 00:04:11,130 --> 00:04:15,619 Churchill. English politicians like Balfour- Gandhi was here, 71 00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:21,109 but it's often said that events were discussed here and agreed 72 00:04:21,119 --> 00:04:24,899 here which still affect us now because a lot of politics took 73 00:04:24,910 --> 00:04:28,369 place at country house weekends and this was one of them. 74 00:04:29,089 --> 00:04:32,799 ALAN POWER: And you, you kind of reeled off an amazing list of 75 00:04:32,809 --> 00:04:35,890 visitors and people. But I think one name that's fairly strongly 76 00:04:35,899 --> 00:04:39,429 associated with Cliveden is Nancy Astor, isn't it? And can 77 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,709 you tell us a little bit about kind of who she was? 78 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,470 MIKE BELLUM: Well, Nancy was from Virginia in the States and 79 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,829 she married a rich New Yorker and the, the marriage didn't 80 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,899 last very long. He accused her of all sorts of things. She 81 00:04:52,910 --> 00:04:56,170 accused him of drunkenness, but eventually she decided that she 82 00:04:56,179 --> 00:04:58,010 wanted to travel and came over to England. 83 00:04:58,230 --> 00:05:00,779 She was accused at one point of coming over here to find a 84 00:05:00,790 --> 00:05:04,670 husband. She is supposed to have said, "My dear, if you knew how 85 00:05:04,679 --> 00:05:06,790 much trouble it was to get rid of the first one, you wouldn't 86 00:05:06,799 --> 00:05:09,209 say that." 87 00:05:09,209 --> 00:05:12,200 But she met, on the way back on the ship, coming back to 88 00:05:12,209 --> 00:05:16,700 England, she met a guy called Waldorf Astor who was the son of 89 00:05:16,709 --> 00:05:21,440 William Waldorf Astor who owned the place. So 1906, Waldorf 90 00:05:21,450 --> 00:05:23,660 comes back and says dad, I want to get married. 91 00:05:23,829 --> 00:05:27,220 Dad being a nice dad or sucker. I'm not sure which you want to 92 00:05:27,230 --> 00:05:30,429 put it! Says, "don't worry, son, here's £10 million in Cliveden 93 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,390 and I'll go and live in my other house, Hever Castle." 94 00:05:33,390 --> 00:05:37,799 So Nancy was the Chatelaine of this place from 1906 until she 95 00:05:37,809 --> 00:05:39,200 died in the 1960s. 96 00:05:42,079 --> 00:05:43,850 ALAN POWER: Do you have an insight into what kind of a 97 00:05:43,859 --> 00:05:44,910 character she was? 98 00:05:45,589 --> 00:05:49,570 MIKE BELLUM: Yes, a bit abrasive at times. She was an intriguing 99 00:05:49,579 --> 00:05:52,619 character because I'm sure, you know, she became the first 100 00:05:52,630 --> 00:05:55,130 female MP to take her seat in the House Of Commons. 101 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,500 But Nancy was an MP and a husband who was still into 102 00:06:02,510 --> 00:06:05,170 politics even though he was now Lord Astor, which is why he had 103 00:06:05,179 --> 00:06:08,260 to give up his seat in Plymouth. They used it for entertaining 104 00:06:08,390 --> 00:06:09,940 their political friends. 105 00:06:13,459 --> 00:06:16,709 ALAN POWER: You know, how was Nancy as to received in England 106 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,339 as a politician when she started? 107 00:06:19,339 --> 00:06:21,640 MIKE BELLUM: Well, as a politician. No, she was very 108 00:06:21,649 --> 00:06:24,739 unpopular. It took about a year before people would speak to 109 00:06:24,750 --> 00:06:28,549 her. Churchill apparently once said something along the lines 110 00:06:28,559 --> 00:06:31,390 of, "well, I was so embarrassed because it felt like it was 111 00:06:31,399 --> 00:06:34,440 caught in a bathroom with just a loofah to cover me, having a 112 00:06:34,450 --> 00:06:35,690 woman in parliament." 113 00:06:35,690 --> 00:06:40,029 The famous saying was for Nancy was "Winston, if I was your 114 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:41,600 wife, I'd poison you." " 115 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,950 If I was your husband, I'd take it." 116 00:06:43,950 --> 00:06:48,500 You know, that defines some of some of the elements of the lack 117 00:06:48,510 --> 00:06:53,470 of empathy between men and women in power in those days. And that 118 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,500 was one of many examples that took place. 119 00:06:55,510 --> 00:06:57,500 But Nancy was Nancy. 120 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,959 ALAN POWER: Now tell me, Mike, the swimming pool has got a 121 00:07:03,970 --> 00:07:05,859 little bit of a story behind it, hasn't it? 122 00:07:05,869 --> 00:07:08,829 MIKE BELLUM: It has yes. It's the infamous swimming pool in 123 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:14,179 1961 Astor had won some money on the, on the racing and he built 124 00:07:14,190 --> 00:07:17,630 himself a swimming pool and he was doing entertainment for the 125 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,329 government, I say for the government because it was 126 00:07:20,690 --> 00:07:24,329 included the president of Pakistan. It included Louis 127 00:07:24,339 --> 00:07:27,109 Mountbatten who was the chief in imperial staff. 128 00:07:27,350 --> 00:07:32,200 And it included John Profumo Minister of War. And he went out 129 00:07:32,209 --> 00:07:34,980 for a walk to have a look at the swimming pool. And they came 130 00:07:34,989 --> 00:07:44,029 across a couple of young ladies wearing not very much. Profumo, 131 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,130 rather liked the looks of one of them. Her name was Christine 132 00:07:46,140 --> 00:07:50,890 Keeler and he slipped her, his phone number and an affair 133 00:07:50,899 --> 00:07:51,589 started. 134 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,869 It wasn't a great passionate affair wasn't helped by the fact 135 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,170 she was also sharing a pillow with the Russian Naval Attaché, 136 00:08:00,179 --> 00:08:01,119 Mr Ivanov. 137 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,059 Now, for the younger people, they weren't understand the 138 00:08:09,070 --> 00:08:13,850 paranoia that 1961, Cold War and Russia and the defense minister 139 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:14,899 would have. 140 00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:19,420 But basically the big connection was Russia, Cold War, Minister 141 00:08:19,429 --> 00:08:23,540 of War, Toffs, all the bits and pieces, all the things that 142 00:08:23,549 --> 00:08:25,700 embrace paranoia in the country. 143 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:30,660 Profumo called it off. Two years later, it came out and it didn't 144 00:08:30,670 --> 00:08:33,500 topple the government, but it had a bearing on it. Certainly. 145 00:08:33,690 --> 00:08:36,750 So one of the major political events was triggered here. 146 00:08:42,210 --> 00:08:44,229 ALAN POWER: So I'm heading off now to meet Andrew Mudge, the 147 00:08:44,239 --> 00:08:48,140 Head Gardener. Really just to find out what's going on in all 148 00:08:48,150 --> 00:08:50,270 the garden at Cliveden nowadays. 149 00:08:55,270 --> 00:08:57,659 Hi, Andrew. Great, great to see you again. 150 00:08:57,669 --> 00:08:58,239 ANDREW MUDGE: Good to see you again. 151 00:08:58,340 --> 00:09:02,010 ALAN POWER: And we're standing here today. In the baking heat 152 00:09:02,390 --> 00:09:04,659 outside the rose garden. And I know that you've been 153 00:09:04,669 --> 00:09:07,090 fundamental in sort in the rose garden out here, haven't you? 154 00:09:07,409 --> 00:09:10,440 ANDREW MUDGE: We have. Yeah. Yeah. Very fortunately, the 155 00:09:10,450 --> 00:09:14,289 Trust many years ago did a radio interview with Geoffrey Jellicoe 156 00:09:14,299 --> 00:09:17,820 who designed the first rose garden for the Third Lord Astor 157 00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:23,390 in 1959. So we had a fabulous record and from that record, 158 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,690 we've been able to do the restoration of the rose garden 159 00:09:26,929 --> 00:09:30,179 probably as Jellicoe intended. And this is the first time, it 160 00:09:30,190 --> 00:09:31,520 never got completed. 161 00:09:32,549 --> 00:09:34,809 ALAN POWER: To give you some context. Geoffrey Jellicoe was a 162 00:09:34,820 --> 00:09:37,989 prominent garden designer whose creations dazzled the nation 163 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,820 throughout the 20th century. He had architectural training and a 164 00:09:41,830 --> 00:09:44,130 particular interest in the Italian Gardens of the 165 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:47,890 Renaissance. Both influences are clear in his structured and 166 00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:49,109 ornate gardens. 167 00:09:51,770 --> 00:09:54,640 ANDREW MUDGE: What Jellicoe had really, really tried to capture 168 00:09:54,650 --> 00:09:59,669 was the garden as the sunrise on the east there going across to 169 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,190 sunset in the west. So the sort of pale yellows going through 170 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,090 the the spectrum to go out the real dark colours on the on the 171 00:10:07,099 --> 00:10:08,729 other side, you can really see that. 172 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:12,570 You know, as the sun gets to sort of midday, it's above those 173 00:10:12,580 --> 00:10:15,409 real intense reds and so forth. 174 00:10:15,590 --> 00:10:18,590 And then as it goes over in the later afternoon, you know, it 175 00:10:18,599 --> 00:10:23,169 goes into those really scarlet colours representing sunset and 176 00:10:23,179 --> 00:10:28,909 the other clever bit of the design that Jellicoe described 177 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:32,280 really well is that you, the garden should envelop you. 178 00:10:32,289 --> 00:10:35,669 So when you go into the garden, you've got the taller plants on 179 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,510 the outside, the shorter ones in the middle and you can sit on 180 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,140 the seats, and just be enveloped with the scent, the colour. It's 181 00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:45,349 just wonderful. 182 00:10:45,809 --> 00:10:47,429 ALAN POWER: I think what's beautiful about this garden and 183 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,380 we're standing underneath some Pine Trees. You know, there's 184 00:10:50,390 --> 00:10:53,539 some Sweet Chestnut around some Beech Trees and it feels as if 185 00:10:53,549 --> 00:10:55,929 the rose gardens in the middle of a- of a woodland, doesn't it? 186 00:10:55,940 --> 00:10:59,289 You know, it's backdrop of Yew trees. So it's a real oasis of 187 00:10:59,299 --> 00:11:00,669 colour in the middle of the woods, isn't it? 188 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,590 ANDREW MUDGE: It really is. And we've tried to fit it into the 189 00:11:04,599 --> 00:11:08,349 original round point in the 18th century landscape because that's 190 00:11:08,359 --> 00:11:13,659 what this was. And it's had many, many overlays, but this is 191 00:11:13,669 --> 00:11:15,270 the one I think that works the best. 192 00:11:15,849 --> 00:11:16,869 ALAN POWER: It's fantastic. 193 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,900 ANDREW MUDGE: Great- great visitor enjoyment. You can hear 194 00:11:18,909 --> 00:11:21,260 people in the distance really enjoying it and talking about 195 00:11:21,270 --> 00:11:24,760 the roses and having a good old laugh and chat and it is a nice 196 00:11:24,770 --> 00:11:27,909 place to go and sit and just absorb the atmosphere. 197 00:11:33,169 --> 00:11:36,280 ALAN POWER: Isn't it funny when you enter a garden like this? 198 00:11:36,289 --> 00:11:39,250 And I'm sure you walk the way I walk at work, you know, you're, 199 00:11:39,260 --> 00:11:43,099 you're strolling between points of the garden is quite fast. You 200 00:11:43,109 --> 00:11:45,390 get to an area and both of us came in and our pace slowed 201 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,409 down. Immediately slowed down because you're just observing 202 00:11:48,419 --> 00:11:50,309 the colour and inhaling the scent and- 203 00:11:50,630 --> 00:11:53,049 ANDREW MUDGE: Yeah, and just taking it in, you know, it's 204 00:11:53,059 --> 00:11:57,690 quite a confined space and it's, the design is, is what actually 205 00:11:57,700 --> 00:12:02,539 makes this garden, you know, so unique. I think it's the 206 00:12:02,549 --> 00:12:06,710 statues, the arches in that humanist form, which are the, 207 00:12:06,719 --> 00:12:11,419 these are original Jellicoe designs. And the original arches 208 00:12:11,429 --> 00:12:12,840 that he intended to go here. 209 00:12:13,630 --> 00:12:15,369 ALAN POWER: I'm a little bit jealous to be honest. 210 00:12:15,580 --> 00:12:17,809 ANDREW MUDGE: I mean, you, you hit the nail on your head. It's, 211 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:22,030 it's team effort, team effort. And Jen who is one of my team 212 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:25,840 looks after this. I mean, it's a daily, dead head. 213 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,510 JEN: Well, basically, I'm in here nearly all the time. It's 214 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,340 been pretty full on since the since the roses started 215 00:12:36,349 --> 00:12:41,559 flowering a couple of weeks ago. So, every morning before we 216 00:12:41,570 --> 00:12:43,340 open, I'm in here deadheading. 217 00:12:43,650 --> 00:12:45,690 ALAN POWER: So, Jen, how many roses in here do you have to 218 00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:46,179 Deadhead? 219 00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:50,219 JEN: So we have over 900 individual rose plants in here. 220 00:12:50,229 --> 00:12:54,219 Something like 44 varieties. Yeah, 900 keeps me busy. 221 00:12:55,719 --> 00:12:58,049 ALAN POWER: I bet it does all done with your secateurs gently 222 00:12:58,059 --> 00:12:58,780 and carefully. 223 00:12:58,809 --> 00:13:01,590 JEN: Yes. Yeah. No, no hedge trimmers in here. Not even when 224 00:13:01,599 --> 00:13:04,590 we prune, it's all done by secateurs. So all the roses that 225 00:13:04,599 --> 00:13:07,539 we have in here are repeat flowers. So as soon as they 226 00:13:07,549 --> 00:13:11,340 start flowering this year, they started in May, they will go on 227 00:13:11,349 --> 00:13:11,580 right. 228 00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:14,260 The way through to sort of September, October. I've even 229 00:13:14,270 --> 00:13:17,559 seen flowers in December and we wouldn't have that if I didn't 230 00:13:17,570 --> 00:13:18,229 Deadhead. 231 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,489 So by deadheading every day, certainly during its peak means 232 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,820 that we get more roses coming through and more for the 233 00:13:24,830 --> 00:13:25,869 visitors to enjoy. 234 00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:28,010 ALAN POWER: Do you have a favorite rose in this amazing 235 00:13:28,020 --> 00:13:28,469 collection? 236 00:13:28,799 --> 00:13:31,150 JEN: I do. I have a number, I would say my favorite is 237 00:13:31,159 --> 00:13:35,000 Fellowship, which is the orange one. It's just on the inner 238 00:13:35,010 --> 00:13:35,539 beds. 239 00:13:35,729 --> 00:13:37,789 I like it for a number of reasons. Not necessarily for the 240 00:13:37,799 --> 00:13:40,549 fragrance because actually of the roses in here is probably 241 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,409 one of the least fragrant, but it's easy to Deadhead. It's a 242 00:13:44,419 --> 00:13:47,890 nice colour and it's got a really lush green leaf as well. 243 00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:50,210 So I think that that one works really well in here. 244 00:13:56,580 --> 00:13:59,219 ALAN POWER: I've seen a couple of members of your team out and 245 00:13:59,229 --> 00:14:02,950 about today, some of them, you know, doing the bedding in this 246 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,229 heat, you know, working really hard. How many have you got on 247 00:14:05,239 --> 00:14:06,059 the team in total? 248 00:14:06,070 --> 00:14:08,960 ANDREW MUDGE: Yeah, there's 10 of us all together full time in 249 00:14:08,969 --> 00:14:12,080 the garden. So if you work that out 100 acres, that's 10 acres 250 00:14:12,090 --> 00:14:14,900 each and pretty labour intensive. So I don't think we 251 00:14:14,909 --> 00:14:17,770 do too bad, but most importantly, we have a great 252 00:14:17,780 --> 00:14:19,760 team of volunteers that help us as well. 253 00:14:20,059 --> 00:14:24,609 We have 45 + volunteers that join us during the course of the 254 00:14:24,619 --> 00:14:27,479 week. And we're also training as Well, we've got a couple of 255 00:14:27,489 --> 00:14:31,559 trainees here that are learning the ropes. So we want to pass on 256 00:14:31,570 --> 00:14:32,390 those skills. 257 00:14:38,630 --> 00:14:41,750 ALAN POWER: I'm just approaching a space that's underneath the 258 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,530 terrace at Cliveden. It really is on underneath the terrace. 259 00:14:45,539 --> 00:14:48,289 And I'm actually had to stop here because I've been stopped 260 00:14:48,299 --> 00:14:52,030 by heras fencing. Can see scaffolding ladders, light bulbs 261 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:55,659 strung with yellow cables around here. It's a real work zone. Got 262 00:14:55,710 --> 00:14:58,330 all sorts of workmen inside this chamber. 263 00:14:58,570 --> 00:15:01,250 And I can only describe it as a chamber and it's quite an 264 00:15:01,260 --> 00:15:05,469 intriguing space. I can't go in today because the team are in 265 00:15:05,479 --> 00:15:08,799 the throes of restoring this magical space. But it's 266 00:15:08,809 --> 00:15:11,760 intriguing because it's true story isn't really known, you 267 00:15:11,770 --> 00:15:15,070 know, it's, it's an echoey chamber and the sound bellows 268 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,109 throughout the chamber. 269 00:15:16,369 --> 00:15:19,989 There are two funnels, you know, in one half of the chamber and 270 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,760 perhaps their purpose was to direct the sound up into the 271 00:15:22,770 --> 00:15:27,140 house or to echo it back out the doors into the landscape. So I 272 00:15:27,150 --> 00:15:29,830 suppose in, in a little part of my mind, I'm thinking that this 273 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,969 is a huge speaker, you know, and you just turn the volume up on 274 00:15:32,979 --> 00:15:36,570 the sound of an orchestra so that it can be cast across the 275 00:15:36,580 --> 00:15:37,309 whole property. 276 00:15:48,869 --> 00:15:51,625 I don't know. You know, it's not something that I can say, 277 00:15:51,625 --> 00:15:54,469 'Actually this is definitely used for this' but I love the 278 00:15:54,479 --> 00:15:57,859 sense of mystery. It's not a space that the National Trust 279 00:15:57,869 --> 00:16:00,830 have known about forever. It wasn't until 2012 that they 280 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,219 discovered it as part of another restoration project and it does 281 00:16:05,229 --> 00:16:09,539 appear on an infantry in 1849 that describes it as a sounding 282 00:16:09,549 --> 00:16:09,929 room. 283 00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:13,609 So it must have been used for some amazing recitals and 284 00:16:13,619 --> 00:16:18,979 amazing parties and used to echo the sound up into this towering 285 00:16:18,989 --> 00:16:27,650 building that stands above it. 286 00:16:27,650 --> 00:16:30,580 To help really imagine what this sounding chamber might have been 287 00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:33,679 used for. In 2016, the National Trust commissioned a sound 288 00:16:33,690 --> 00:16:38,109 artist Robin Rimbaud, also known as Scanner to recreate some of 289 00:16:38,119 --> 00:16:41,070 those historic sounds in this chamber. It must have been 290 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,379 magnificent. [ 291 00:16:43,379 --> 00:16:53,237 GENERIC: SFX] And now... a toast, I think to the great and 292 00:16:53,237 --> 00:16:56,559 glorious majesty- [ 293 00:16:56,559 --> 00:16:59,880 SFX Continues] 294 00:17:17,010 --> 00:17:19,800 ALAN POWER: The Astors were not only socialites, Cliveden was 295 00:17:19,810 --> 00:17:23,859 not merely a party place. I've just arrived in a very special 296 00:17:23,869 --> 00:17:27,040 part of Cliveden to meet Stephen Acourt who's got some really 297 00:17:27,050 --> 00:17:29,979 interesting stories to share with me about Cliveden's rather 298 00:17:29,989 --> 00:17:33,040 surprising role in the First World War. Hi, Stephen, how are 299 00:17:33,050 --> 00:17:33,430 you doing? 300 00:17:33,439 --> 00:17:35,439 STEPHEN ACOURT: I'm very well. Thank you and lovely to meet you 301 00:17:35,449 --> 00:17:36,020 here today, 302 00:17:36,050 --> 00:17:38,199 ALAN POWER: Stephen, So what brought you to volunteer at 303 00:17:38,209 --> 00:17:40,270 Cliveden or with the National Trust? 304 00:17:40,650 --> 00:17:42,280 STEPHEN ACOURT: Well, it's, it's an interesting- because I've 305 00:17:42,290 --> 00:17:44,829 done so many things over the last few years, five years to, 306 00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:47,479 to be precise. But I first found myself up here as a visitor. I 307 00:17:47,489 --> 00:17:51,430 live locally and I saw a notice on the notice board near the 308 00:17:51,439 --> 00:17:53,640 information centre that was looking for people who wanted to 309 00:17:53,650 --> 00:17:55,589 volunteer to be a charcoal maker. 310 00:17:55,599 --> 00:17:59,349 Now as a latent bonfire and barbecue specialist, this was 311 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,260 right up my street. So I joined the charcoal making team, which 312 00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:06,290 is all here on site from cutting the trees down, cutting them up, 313 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:08,930 putting them in the kiln producing the charcoal and 314 00:18:08,939 --> 00:18:12,540 actually has sold you know, from the information centre. 315 00:18:12,550 --> 00:18:14,439 ALAN POWER: So a completely homegrown product, those little 316 00:18:14,449 --> 00:18:16,449 bags I saw down the information centre? 317 00:18:16,459 --> 00:18:18,579 STEPHEN ACOURT: Made by volunteers made by volunteers 318 00:18:18,589 --> 00:18:18,900 here. 319 00:18:18,910 --> 00:18:22,140 No longer me, I've moved on from that. I've tended to migrate 320 00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:25,140 more towards sort of historical research. I'm currently involved 321 00:18:25,150 --> 00:18:28,219 in a project which is involved going to Reading University. 322 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:31,380 The Astor archive is held at Reading University in the Museum 323 00:18:31,390 --> 00:18:34,910 Of English Rural Life and it's in there that there are all 324 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,229 sorts of records that relate to the generator house. That's a, 325 00:18:38,239 --> 00:18:41,229 it's a building- a derelict building on site built in about 326 00:18:41,239 --> 00:18:42,670 1895. 327 00:18:43,670 --> 00:18:47,290 In line with the Victorian trend to have self generation of 328 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:49,180 electricity in English country houses. 329 00:18:49,189 --> 00:18:53,560 And maybe this time next year, we'll see a generator house, not 330 00:18:53,569 --> 00:18:56,579 generating electricity here but refurbished as maybe a new 331 00:18:56,589 --> 00:18:57,589 visitor space. 332 00:18:57,810 --> 00:18:59,900 ALAN POWER: It's great to be here. And I'm I'm intrigued 333 00:18:59,910 --> 00:19:03,729 because over your shoulder, there's this magnificent space 334 00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:07,069 in quite, I suppose off the beaten track part of Cliveden. 335 00:19:07,439 --> 00:19:10,219 And I'm hoping that you can share its background and its 336 00:19:10,229 --> 00:19:11,099 stories with us. 337 00:19:11,469 --> 00:19:14,760 STEPHEN ACOURT: As I understand it. The starting point was the 338 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:18,359 establishment of a hospital. The Astors wanted to do something 339 00:19:18,369 --> 00:19:21,180 for the war effort. They were both in politics. And they had 340 00:19:21,189 --> 00:19:23,060 all this land and they wanted to do something. 341 00:19:23,229 --> 00:19:25,989 They had this indoor tennis court which is on the other side 342 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,319 of the estate and it still exists today and they offered it 343 00:19:29,329 --> 00:19:31,500 to the British authorities in the first instance to be a 344 00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:32,410 hospital. 345 00:19:32,709 --> 00:19:35,510 I think the intention was it was going to be something like 110 346 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,479 bed hospital. And the Canadian Red Cross took up the 347 00:19:40,489 --> 00:19:45,030 opportunity to, invest in that tennis court and convert it into 348 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,439 a hospital for the First World War. 349 00:19:56,229 --> 00:20:00,300 It was quite a successful hospital in the sense that the 350 00:20:00,310 --> 00:20:03,280 mortality rate was not particularly high. And I don't 351 00:20:03,290 --> 00:20:06,939 think necessarily all of the soldiers that died are buried 352 00:20:06,949 --> 00:20:09,459 here, but I believe quite a number of them are, I mean, they 353 00:20:09,469 --> 00:20:11,640 all that are buried here did die here. 354 00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:19,880 ALAN POWER: I suppose the first thing you, you know, you come 355 00:20:19,890 --> 00:20:22,859 around that corner and the first thing you sense is, is the 356 00:20:22,869 --> 00:20:26,170 difference between the woodland walk that we've just been on and 357 00:20:26,180 --> 00:20:28,500 the level of care and maintenance, you know, the grass 358 00:20:28,510 --> 00:20:32,160 is perfectly clipped and the each, each headstone is, is 359 00:20:32,170 --> 00:20:36,349 immaculately presented and edged and, and it's, it's like this 360 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,609 oval shape and it feels as if it's been cut into the bank and 361 00:20:40,619 --> 00:20:42,829 it's got like rustic rock and ivy. 362 00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:45,310 STEPHEN ACOURT: I would draw your attention to the statue 363 00:20:45,319 --> 00:20:49,069 there of, of the lady, a statue which was commissioned by Nancy 364 00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:52,780 Astor. Some say it's born in her own image, sort of her if you 365 00:20:52,790 --> 00:20:56,579 will, looking over these graves is the sort of interpretation of 366 00:20:56,589 --> 00:20:57,550 it and looking after them. 367 00:20:57,790 --> 00:21:00,349 ALAN POWER: Yeah. Should we, should we go down the steps? 368 00:21:04,829 --> 00:21:07,369 Stephen, you described wonderfully the, the statue that 369 00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:09,959 we're looking at and she's in the sunshine at the moment, you 370 00:21:09,969 --> 00:21:12,810 know, overlooking the graves that we can see in the garden 371 00:21:12,819 --> 00:21:14,380 and it's a very peaceful spot. 372 00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:18,170 And you said that she was possibly made in the likeness of 373 00:21:18,180 --> 00:21:21,119 Nancy herself. But I mean, that, that for me has raised a 374 00:21:21,130 --> 00:21:25,880 question, you know, about Nancy's role in, in all of this. 375 00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:28,319 STEPHEN ACOURT: She was keen, she, I think she's undoubtedly 376 00:21:28,329 --> 00:21:32,060 she was very keen to do her piece and offer part of her, of 377 00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:35,680 the extensive property, to be this hospital in the First World 378 00:21:35,689 --> 00:21:36,089 War. 379 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,459 And she visited it regularly and she talked to the men and she 380 00:21:39,469 --> 00:21:41,959 went around and it is said in the records that, you know, she 381 00:21:41,969 --> 00:21:45,459 really sort of uplifted their, their spirit and their morale 382 00:21:45,469 --> 00:21:48,770 and, you know, in, in a hard but fair way, you know, told them to 383 00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:50,300 sort of shape up and get on with it. 384 00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:53,040 But, but at the same time, you know, it was, I think it was 385 00:21:53,050 --> 00:21:55,209 thought to be a very happy hospital if that's such as 386 00:21:55,219 --> 00:21:56,660 possible in the First World War. 387 00:22:13,670 --> 00:22:16,319 ALAN POWER: Today has been an amazing day. Cliveden is a truly 388 00:22:16,329 --> 00:22:20,239 beautiful garden. It's also brimming with history. I mean, 389 00:22:20,250 --> 00:22:23,699 to think this is where the Profumo Affair all kicked off 390 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,530 that pivotal scandal that contributed to the defeat of the 391 00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:30,280 then Prime Minister and changed the way the British public 392 00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:32,180 thought about authority forever. 393 00:22:33,719 --> 00:22:36,890 And what about Nancy Astor what a character she must have been 394 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,609 and the sounding chamber that really is a feast for the 395 00:22:39,619 --> 00:22:43,489 imagination and the senses. What a treat. I hope you enjoyed it 396 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:44,510 as much as I did. 397 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,739 For more information about Cliveden, you can visit their 398 00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:54,630 website at nationaltrust.org.uk/cliveden 399 00:22:56,839 --> 00:22:59,380 and to learn more about the full range of podcasts at the 400 00:22:59,390 --> 00:23:05,339 National Trust, go to nationaltrust.org.uk/podcasts. 401 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,680 You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter. 402 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,569 For our next full episode, which will be live at the end of the 403 00:23:14,579 --> 00:23:17,760 month, I'll be in Stowe exploring the hidden meanings of 404 00:23:17,770 --> 00:23:20,949 the incredible landscape gardens, but don't worry, there 405 00:23:20,959 --> 00:23:23,290 will be a mini episode available next week. 406 00:23:23,449 --> 00:23:25,949 We'll be going behind the scenes at Cliveden with one of our 407 00:23:25,959 --> 00:23:29,300 National Trust volunteers, Josh Turner and also exploring some 408 00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:32,969 fascinating creepy stories associated with the Astors.