1 00:00:02,259 --> 00:00:04,260 ALAN POWER: Thanks for downloading this garden cutting 2 00:00:04,269 --> 00:00:06,840 from the National Trust. In these shorter programs I'm 3 00:00:06,849 --> 00:00:09,239 exploring a particular aspect of our work. 4 00:00:09,890 --> 00:00:12,359 I'm Alan Power, the head gardener for the National Trust 5 00:00:12,369 --> 00:00:15,489 at Stourhead in Wiltshire. But today I'm at Sissinghurst Castle 6 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:19,069 Garden in Kent, a garden designed by poet and author Vita 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,510 Sackville West and diplomat Harold Nicholson. 8 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:30,129 I'm standing next to Josh Sparks in the garden at Sissinghurst. 9 00:00:30,139 --> 00:00:33,069 It's quite chilly, but actually Josh has got a particular 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,150 passion and interest in the meadows here, don't you? 11 00:00:35,619 --> 00:00:37,970 JOSH SPARKS: I certainly do even though some people probably call 12 00:00:37,979 --> 00:00:39,849 it an obsession rather than a passion. So- 13 00:00:39,860 --> 00:00:41,169 ALAN POWER: No, there's a fine line, isn't there. 14 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:42,389 JOSH SPARKS: Yeah, definitely, definitely. 15 00:00:42,439 --> 00:00:46,919 But the reason why I'm obsessed or love them so much is because 16 00:00:46,930 --> 00:00:49,610 they're so entwined in our culture. They've been with us 17 00:00:49,619 --> 00:00:52,930 since Neolithic man, hung up his bow and arrows and spear and 18 00:00:52,939 --> 00:00:55,540 decided to keep animals rather than hunt them. So they've been 19 00:00:55,549 --> 00:00:56,849 with us for thousands of years. 20 00:00:57,169 --> 00:01:00,650 And in recent years, in the past really 60, 70 years, we've seen 21 00:01:00,659 --> 00:01:04,379 a 98% decline in the wildflowers due to fertilizers, the 22 00:01:04,389 --> 00:01:08,480 mechanization of farming equipment and almost this need 23 00:01:08,489 --> 00:01:10,139 to make a lot of profit from our land. 24 00:01:10,150 --> 00:01:13,300 So ponds disappeared with that hedgerows, trees and every scrap 25 00:01:13,309 --> 00:01:15,610 of land has been used for the production of food or the over 26 00:01:15,620 --> 00:01:16,610 grazing of animals. 27 00:01:16,970 --> 00:01:18,809 ALAN POWER: So, what are you doing at Sissinghurst at the 28 00:01:18,819 --> 00:01:21,519 moment? Because I know you're trying to re-establish some of 29 00:01:21,529 --> 00:01:22,209 the meadows here. 30 00:01:23,139 --> 00:01:26,019 JOSH SPARKS: When Vita and Harold came here. They, well, 31 00:01:26,029 --> 00:01:27,879 the reason why they got Sissin- Or fell in love with 32 00:01:27,889 --> 00:01:30,379 Sissinghurst was because of the Kentish countryside. Vita writes 33 00:01:30,389 --> 00:01:33,290 about it regularly. And when they came, the farm that was 34 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:35,660 here originally was crashing against the castle walls. 35 00:01:35,860 --> 00:01:39,190 And now we're taking it back to the kind of 1930s farm. So we're 36 00:01:39,199 --> 00:01:41,889 turning a lot of these homogeneous, boring lawns making 37 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:44,410 them back into wild flowers. And we're sharing this kind of 38 00:01:44,419 --> 00:01:47,089 wildflower experience, wildlife, with our visitors. 39 00:01:47,099 --> 00:01:49,050 ALAN POWER: And that helps I suppose, tell the whole story of 40 00:01:49,059 --> 00:01:51,169 Sissinghurst, you know, its connection with the agricultural 41 00:01:51,180 --> 00:01:54,290 landscape, its connection with the surrounding landscape and 42 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:56,330 merges both closer together, doesn't it? 43 00:01:56,339 --> 00:01:58,430 JOSH SPARKS: Yeah, definitely. Within the three years that 44 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,309 we've created the meadows, the wildlife has shot up almost or 45 00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:04,150 is more visible. Now, we try and manage our meadows in the most 46 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:05,269 traditional way we can. 47 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:09,100 So we do scythe we do make hayricks, for example, the oast 48 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,139 meadow, which we created two years ago, this kind of blank 49 00:02:12,149 --> 00:02:14,940 boring lawn. Now, when you walk down, there's all these Oxeye 50 00:02:14,949 --> 00:02:17,309 Daisies and Ragged Robins. But there's all these sparrows kind 51 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,070 of spiralling up out the centre of it playing. 52 00:02:19,789 --> 00:02:22,500 And when I come into the orchard where we are now at five in the 53 00:02:22,509 --> 00:02:25,309 morning to scythe on the hayrick pile, there's always a Tawny Owl 54 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:25,940 at the top. 55 00:02:26,009 --> 00:02:28,149 And then as you work down the hayrick, you get birds taking 56 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,970 hay to make nests and the next bit down you get all these flies 57 00:02:30,979 --> 00:02:33,490 and moths and butterflies all playing in it. And if you look 58 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:35,110 at the bottom of the hayrick, you just see the bottoms of 59 00:02:35,119 --> 00:02:37,110 mice, kind of scuffling in, scuffling out again. 60 00:02:37,619 --> 00:02:41,089 So we are really creating amazing habitats for wildlife 61 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:43,330 through traditional management and through the kind of 62 00:02:43,339 --> 00:02:44,169 wildflowers. 63 00:02:44,589 --> 00:02:45,910 ALAN POWER: I'm gonna have to come and see that Tawny Owl 64 00:02:45,910 --> 00:02:49,279 JOSH SPARKS: We'll get you scything! 65 00:02:49,699 --> 00:02:52,550 Because I'm a bit of a soppy git, I mean, I see it as a 66 00:02:52,559 --> 00:02:53,490 connection to people. 67 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:56,240 You know, Romans brought Scythes over 2000 years ago. So you're 68 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:59,289 doing something that someone 2000 years ago is doing. 69 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:02,190 But you're so in tune and connected to the meadow when 70 00:03:02,199 --> 00:03:02,440 you're scything. 71 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,009 If you're scything your windrow and you hear some squeaks or 72 00:03:06,020 --> 00:03:08,500 noises, you can move the grass and there's a nest of mice and 73 00:03:08,509 --> 00:03:11,039 you can work your way around them and then carry on. It's not 74 00:03:11,050 --> 00:03:12,839 like a machine which just kind of sucks and splutters 75 00:03:12,850 --> 00:03:15,160 everything up. You really are connected to it and you can 76 00:03:15,169 --> 00:03:15,639 really- 77 00:03:15,649 --> 00:03:17,270 ALAN POWER: And you feel it, don't you? Because you develop a 78 00:03:17,279 --> 00:03:18,639 rhythm when you're scything. 79 00:03:18,649 --> 00:03:21,240 JOSH SPARKS: Oh, yeah. It's like a dance. Once you get the rhythm 80 00:03:21,250 --> 00:03:23,589 you just go through. I mean, I do it barefoot as much as I can 81 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,179 because you can feel how much you cut the grass. So, when 82 00:03:26,190 --> 00:03:28,029 you're walking through you can see the stubble and stuff. So, 83 00:03:28,050 --> 00:03:28,845 it's really fantastic. 84 00:03:28,845 --> 00:03:31,199 ALAN POWER: Nice one. But you've, you've been doing some 85 00:03:31,210 --> 00:03:33,289 research into the plants as well, haven't you? And has that 86 00:03:33,300 --> 00:03:34,350 been research abroad. 87 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,470 JOSH SPARKS: As a gardener personally, I take most 88 00:03:36,479 --> 00:03:38,339 inspiration from seeing plants in the wild. 89 00:03:38,350 --> 00:03:38,369 ALAN POWER: Yeah, 90 00:03:38,380 --> 00:03:40,809 JOSH SPARKS: I think as any gardener to see different 91 00:03:40,820 --> 00:03:44,080 combinations, different habitats, how they grow, how 92 00:03:44,089 --> 00:03:47,160 they colonize themselves is so important as gardeners and we 93 00:03:47,169 --> 00:03:48,740 can apply in all our gardens. 94 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,779 So I've done a lot of traveling. So I've been to Slovenia, the 95 00:03:51,789 --> 00:03:55,080 Outer Hebrides, Romania, the French Alps, the Mediterranean 96 00:03:55,830 --> 00:03:58,919 in search of kind of wildflowers- meadows to see how 97 00:03:59,289 --> 00:04:01,679 people manage them and to see the combinations. 98 00:04:01,740 --> 00:04:04,610 And especially in Romania, I live with a farmer and we did 99 00:04:04,619 --> 00:04:06,940 scything, we made hayricks and he talked to us about the 100 00:04:06,949 --> 00:04:10,240 farming and how he benefited the wildlife and it benefited him 101 00:04:10,649 --> 00:04:12,509 and everything I learn, I bring back here. 102 00:04:12,610 --> 00:04:14,850 ALAN POWER: And Vita and Harold did something very similar, 103 00:04:14,860 --> 00:04:17,399 didn't they? They travelled and took inspiration back here as 104 00:04:17,510 --> 00:04:17,690 well. 105 00:04:17,700 --> 00:04:19,929 JOSH SPARKS: Yeah. So Harold was a diplomat. So he went all 106 00:04:19,940 --> 00:04:23,989 across kind of Constantinople and Vita especially went to Iran 107 00:04:24,119 --> 00:04:26,299 and she saw a lot of Irises growing out of the desert and 108 00:04:26,309 --> 00:04:29,570 took inspiration from that to put Irises in and especially the 109 00:04:29,579 --> 00:04:32,399 garden room, Delos, which we're going to start next year. Used 110 00:04:32,410 --> 00:04:34,899 to be her Mediterranean garden, which she took inspiration from 111 00:04:34,910 --> 00:04:37,170 the Mediterranean and the ancient city of Delos. 112 00:04:37,179 --> 00:04:39,089 ALAN POWER: You must be learning an awful lot from what you're 113 00:04:39,100 --> 00:04:39,700 doing here. 114 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,820 JOSH SPARKS: Yeah, I mean, anything I learn I want to share 115 00:04:41,989 --> 00:04:44,855 and here at Sissinghurst, The work we're doing is quite 116 00:04:44,864 --> 00:04:48,345 innovative. And we actually now run our own meadow internship 117 00:04:48,355 --> 00:04:51,195 where people come and stay here for a week, get engrossed in the 118 00:04:51,204 --> 00:04:52,214 kind of atmosphere of Sissinghurst. 119 00:04:52,554 --> 00:04:55,975 And we scythe and projects later on is a massive field at the 120 00:04:55,984 --> 00:04:58,054 back lake field. We're turning it back into a meadow and a 121 00:04:58,065 --> 00:05:01,125 cherry orchard and the field out the front, which is this huge 122 00:05:01,135 --> 00:05:04,204 kind of manicured lawn. We're really boning it back, turning 123 00:05:04,214 --> 00:05:06,804 it back into meadow, having sheep grazing animals. 124 00:05:06,815 --> 00:05:09,144 So when people walk down the car park, they're just going to be 125 00:05:09,154 --> 00:05:12,220 connected to this rural idea straight away. And we're going 126 00:05:12,230 --> 00:05:15,200 to teach more people about that how to incorporate it into their 127 00:05:15,209 --> 00:05:15,700 gardens. 128 00:05:15,709 --> 00:05:17,029 ALAN POWER: That's brilliant. Josh, thanks a million. 129 00:05:18,489 --> 00:05:20,929 Thanks for downloading this garden cutting from the National 130 00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:21,390 Trust. 131 00:05:22,070 --> 00:05:24,750 If you've enjoyed this podcast, you can find more of them by 132 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,410 searching for National Trust Gardens, subscribe on iTunes or 133 00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:30,529 follow us on your favorite podcast app. 134 00:05:30,540 --> 00:05:32,970 We'd love to know what you think of this series and help us to 135 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:36,179 make more of them in the future. Please do leave us a review on 136 00:05:36,190 --> 00:05:38,959 iTunes as well as filling out our survey, which you'll find in 137 00:05:38,970 --> 00:05:41,890 the programme description and hope you can join me again soon. 138 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,500 BETTANY HUGHES: I'm Bettany Hughes. I've been visiting 139 00:05:51,510 --> 00:05:55,070 National Trust Properties all my life, but in this series of 140 00:05:55,079 --> 00:05:59,859 podcasts, I'm going beyond the delights of tees and topiary to 141 00:05:59,869 --> 00:06:03,440 reveal the surprising European roots of some of the most 142 00:06:03,450 --> 00:06:05,100 splendid sites in England. 143 00:06:05,980 --> 00:06:09,539 You can subscribe to my series by searching for Bettany 144 00:06:09,539 --> 00:06:14,609 Hughes's 10 places, Europe and us, on your podcast app.