1 00:00:02,089 --> 00:00:03,920 ALAN POWER: Thanks for downloading the National Trust 2 00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:07,110 Gardens podcast. I'm Alan Power, the head gardener for the 3 00:00:07,119 --> 00:00:08,989 National Trust at Stourhead in Wiltshire. 4 00:00:09,649 --> 00:00:12,100 This is the third garden we'll be visiting in our series, 5 00:00:12,109 --> 00:00:14,979 bringing you the secrets and sounds of some of the UK's most 6 00:00:14,989 --> 00:00:18,309 beautiful gardens. Today, I'm going to be exploring 7 00:00:18,319 --> 00:00:21,639 Sissinghurst Castle Garden in Kent. The garden here is 8 00:00:21,649 --> 00:00:25,040 enclosed by 300 acres of farm and woodland. We'll head up an 9 00:00:25,049 --> 00:00:28,350 Elizabethan Tower that was once a brutal prison hear how this 10 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,510 magical place was home to a great love- 11 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,099 VICKY MCBRIEN: That deep respect and love for each other really 12 00:00:33,110 --> 00:00:36,029 is a thing that's fed everything here. Not just the gardens. 13 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,700 ALAN POWER: And find out how a working farm was restored to a 14 00:00:38,709 --> 00:00:41,860 world famous garden the National Trust are preserving today. 15 00:00:41,889 --> 00:00:44,490 TROY SMITH: It's a garden to explore, a series of intimacies 16 00:00:44,500 --> 00:00:46,259 that you just have to find for yourself. 17 00:00:50,569 --> 00:00:53,669 ALAN POWER: Sissinghurst was once a grand Tudor estate 18 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,700 visited by Queen Elizabeth I. Controversy came in the 18th 19 00:00:57,709 --> 00:01:00,459 century when it became a brutal and murderous prison for French 20 00:01:00,470 --> 00:01:03,669 captives in the Seven Years War. And after that, the land became 21 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,849 home to farm labourers with much of the castle and estate falling 22 00:01:06,860 --> 00:01:07,709 into disrepair. 23 00:01:09,150 --> 00:01:12,279 This was until the early 20th century when two unique people 24 00:01:12,290 --> 00:01:12,849 came along. 25 00:01:17,190 --> 00:01:19,639 JULIET NICHOLSON: A tired swimmer in the waves of time, 26 00:01:19,650 --> 00:01:21,080 I throw my hands up: 27 00:01:21,379 --> 00:01:23,599 Let the surface close: 28 00:01:23,629 --> 00:01:27,400 Sink down through centuries to another clime, 29 00:01:28,019 --> 00:01:32,669 And buried find the castle and the rose. 30 00:01:32,669 --> 00:01:34,690 Buried in time and sleep, 31 00:01:34,690 --> 00:01:37,720 So drowsy, overgrown, 32 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,230 That here the moss is green upon the stone, 33 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:42,760 And lichen stains the keep. 34 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,870 ALAN POWER: That was the start of Vita Sackville West's poem 35 00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:50,540 Sissinghurst read by her eldest granddaughter Juliet Nicholson. 36 00:01:51,199 --> 00:01:54,029 That extract perfectly captures the haunting spirit of the 37 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,000 garden which would become an escape and loving home for her, 38 00:01:57,089 --> 00:01:59,339 her husband Harold Nicholson and their family. 39 00:02:00,010 --> 00:02:02,949 The poet and novelist fell in love with the beautiful ruins. 40 00:02:03,349 --> 00:02:06,089 She'd been denied inheritance of one of the grandest homes in 41 00:02:06,099 --> 00:02:10,438 Britain, Knole, for being born a woman. So she set about creating 42 00:02:10,449 --> 00:02:13,729 a home of her own here. Vita and Harold made Sissinghurst their 43 00:02:13,738 --> 00:02:16,199 family home and the garden their life's work. 44 00:02:16,608 --> 00:02:18,998 It would provide them with the spiritual fulfillment and 45 00:02:19,009 --> 00:02:22,029 inspiration that their garden has provided to visitors ever 46 00:02:22,039 --> 00:02:25,630 since. Today, we'll explore their legacy as romance and 47 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,740 formality collide in spectacular design here in the Weald of 48 00:02:29,750 --> 00:02:30,199 Kent. 49 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,559 I'm standing in the Garden Of Sissinghurst at the foot of the 50 00:02:37,570 --> 00:02:40,339 Elizabethan Tower, which really is the beating heart of the 51 00:02:40,350 --> 00:02:40,899 estate. 52 00:02:41,669 --> 00:02:45,800 And I'm surrounded by really inviting... little doorways and 53 00:02:45,809 --> 00:02:49,320 entrances into the garden which I can't wait to see later. 54 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,350 To my left and right, there are two red brick walls with very 55 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,389 mysterious looking doorways and I know what they lead to, but I 56 00:02:55,399 --> 00:02:58,009 can't wait to see it at this time of the year. I'm lucky 57 00:02:58,020 --> 00:03:00,500 enough to be standing here with Troy Smith, the head gardener at 58 00:03:00,509 --> 00:03:01,630 Sissinghurst. 59 00:03:01,630 --> 00:03:04,610 And Troy, what was Vita's vision for this place? 60 00:03:04,729 --> 00:03:06,990 TROY SMITH: That's a good question because they weren't 61 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,039 doing it for posterity or to show off. 62 00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:12,460 Actually, for Vita and for Harold, the garden at 63 00:03:12,470 --> 00:03:15,550 Sissinghurst was a very personal thing. It was something for 64 00:03:15,559 --> 00:03:19,389 their own pleasure and enjoyment and very intimate and special 65 00:03:19,399 --> 00:03:20,050 because of that. 66 00:03:20,059 --> 00:03:24,039 And I think she very much wanted to garden with nature, with the 67 00:03:24,050 --> 00:03:26,289 seasons, with the land around Sissinghurst. 68 00:03:26,559 --> 00:03:30,630 So you will see at Sissinghurst, roses grown to, you know, 69 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,500 wonderful quality, but you'll also, I'm sure Alan, see a much 70 00:03:35,509 --> 00:03:38,429 deeper kind of experience. And I think the best place to start 71 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,539 perhaps is if we go up the tower, we can get an overview of 72 00:03:41,550 --> 00:03:43,619 the layout in the garden right from the top. 73 00:03:43,630 --> 00:03:47,133 ALAN POWER: Oh, fantastic. Well, let's go and have a look then. 74 00:03:47,133 --> 00:03:52,764 It's a never ending tower or something! 75 00:03:52,764 --> 00:03:56,240 TROY SMITH: It's a long way, but it's well worth it when you get 76 00:03:56,250 --> 00:03:56,520 to the top. 77 00:04:00,559 --> 00:04:02,990 ALAN POWER: Troy, this is amazing. Apart from the obvious 78 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,440 temperature drop now that we've come out and we're more exposed 79 00:04:06,449 --> 00:04:09,509 up here. It really lays the garden out before you, doesn't 80 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:09,669 it. 81 00:04:09,679 --> 00:04:12,789 You can see the rearrangement of some of the planting that you've 82 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,910 been doing. The magnificently crisp formal hedges, I must say, 83 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,320 you know, I can see you smiling at that and being very pleased 84 00:04:19,329 --> 00:04:20,109 with the results. 85 00:04:20,429 --> 00:04:22,950 But on one side, you've got compartments of the garden that 86 00:04:22,959 --> 00:04:26,720 are fully enclosed by walls, you know, a very intimate space. And 87 00:04:26,730 --> 00:04:29,540 then on this side, we're looking out- formal garden and right out 88 00:04:29,549 --> 00:04:32,489 into the countryside, a very, very commanding view. You know, 89 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:33,640 it's spectacular. 90 00:04:34,049 --> 00:04:34,989 TROY SMITH: You never tire. 91 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,660 I never tire from coming up to the tower and seeing the view. 92 00:04:38,769 --> 00:04:41,700 And you're right. I mean, I think Sissinghurst is more than 93 00:04:41,709 --> 00:04:42,239 the garden. 94 00:04:42,250 --> 00:04:44,839 The garden is beautiful, this little treasure box at the heart 95 00:04:44,850 --> 00:04:47,779 of the estate, but that estate is also very important and 96 00:04:47,790 --> 00:04:51,549 precious to us. So here we can look out onto the farm land and 97 00:04:51,559 --> 00:04:55,029 beyond into the Chestnut Coppice Woodland, which really Vita was- 98 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,100 was also inspired by. 99 00:04:57,109 --> 00:04:59,339 ALAN POWER: And your time at Sissinghurst Troy, you were 100 00:04:59,350 --> 00:05:03,559 starting to revitalize elements of what Vita put into the garden 101 00:05:03,579 --> 00:05:03,809 aren't you? 102 00:05:03,820 --> 00:05:06,769 TROY SMITH: We are absolutely. I mean, the trust took on the 103 00:05:06,779 --> 00:05:10,059 garden in the 1960's and it's just about trying to bring about 104 00:05:10,350 --> 00:05:13,609 a celebration of their garden. And that was about beauty and 105 00:05:13,619 --> 00:05:16,369 romance and all of these lovely qualities of Vita. 106 00:05:17,329 --> 00:05:21,809 Furnishing the rooms that Harold created these vistas that he 107 00:05:21,820 --> 00:05:23,209 struck across the garden. 108 00:05:23,649 --> 00:05:25,149 ALAN POWER: Right in front of us, which you don't always 109 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,369 expect to find in the middle of a garden. Do you? Is, is a 110 00:05:27,380 --> 00:05:27,959 cottage? 111 00:05:27,970 --> 00:05:29,540 TROY SMITH: Yeah, that's the south cottage we're looking at 112 00:05:29,549 --> 00:05:32,510 there and that's part of the Elizabethan mansion that was 113 00:05:32,519 --> 00:05:33,480 here. That this tower was the centre of- 114 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,100 So part of the original scheme? 115 00:05:36,109 --> 00:05:38,779 Absolutely. And, and you can't at Sissinghurst, I think, 116 00:05:38,790 --> 00:05:41,880 separate the garden from the buildings. They're very integral 117 00:05:41,890 --> 00:05:44,720 to it actually just dotted around the garden. 118 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,119 It actually means that the garden for Harold and Vita 119 00:05:48,130 --> 00:05:51,679 wasn't some sort of adjunct actually beside their house 120 00:05:51,690 --> 00:05:54,339 because they lived and worked and ate in all of these 121 00:05:54,350 --> 00:05:56,399 different buildings in a very peculiar way. 122 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,769 And probably the first time if you think about this idea of a 123 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,179 room outside, actually Vita and Harold were doing in the 1930s 124 00:06:04,190 --> 00:06:09,029 and using the garden as a place to live in, to entertain, to eat 125 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:09,299 in. 126 00:06:09,940 --> 00:06:11,269 ALAN POWER: Truly as part of their home, wasn't it? 127 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,489 TROY SMITH: Absolutely. It's a garden to explore as Harold put 128 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:17,790 it. A series of intimacies that you just have to go on and find 129 00:06:17,799 --> 00:06:18,440 for yourself. 130 00:06:18,450 --> 00:06:21,040 ALAN POWER: Thank you so much Troy. That's- that's fantastic. 131 00:06:21,049 --> 00:06:23,160 And I know we're going to catch up again later, but I'm going to 132 00:06:23,170 --> 00:06:26,220 disappear now and just learn a little bit more about Vita and 133 00:06:26,230 --> 00:06:28,399 Harold and who they really were. 134 00:06:32,529 --> 00:06:36,070 I'm lucky enough to be standing in the library at Sissinghurst, 135 00:06:36,079 --> 00:06:41,109 which is a very atmospheric room surrounded by books and insight 136 00:06:41,119 --> 00:06:44,350 into the personalities of the people who lived here. 137 00:06:44,579 --> 00:06:49,350 I'm standing with Vicky McBrien, who's the conservation assistant 138 00:06:49,429 --> 00:06:52,910 at Sissinghurst. And she has the Joy of working with all of these 139 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,450 clues and hints to the past. 140 00:06:55,450 --> 00:06:59,209 Vicky to start with. Can you tell me about Vita and Harold 141 00:06:59,220 --> 00:07:00,760 and their life while they were here? 142 00:07:00,769 --> 00:07:02,929 VICKY MCBRIEN: Well, basically, I mean, Vita and Harold, they 143 00:07:02,940 --> 00:07:07,880 were married in 1913 and then subsequently had two children, 144 00:07:07,890 --> 00:07:12,559 Benedict and Nigel. They had both been through a very 145 00:07:12,570 --> 00:07:17,880 tumultuous time in their lives. So coming to Sissinghurst 146 00:07:17,890 --> 00:07:23,160 allowed them really to refocus and to resettle. 147 00:07:23,820 --> 00:07:29,239 And I think being here really brought them together in so many 148 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:33,010 ways, particularly the gardens actually. I think it became that 149 00:07:33,019 --> 00:07:38,329 lovely joint project even though Harold was also involved in 150 00:07:38,339 --> 00:07:41,730 diplomatic service and politics and all sorts of things. 151 00:07:41,739 --> 00:07:44,089 ALAN POWER: Vita and Harold became fairly well known in 152 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:46,279 society and they were well connected at the time, weren't 153 00:07:46,290 --> 00:07:46,529 they? 154 00:07:46,540 --> 00:07:48,970 VICKY MCBRIEN: They knew everybody in politics. They knew 155 00:07:48,980 --> 00:07:52,570 everybody in royalty. There was, of course, Virginia Woolf. 156 00:07:52,910 --> 00:07:58,140 Virginia based her very famous book Orlando on Vita. If you've 157 00:07:58,149 --> 00:08:01,649 seen Vita's writing room, you would have noticed that there's 158 00:08:01,660 --> 00:08:05,049 actually a painting there. And that painting is of Violet 159 00:08:05,529 --> 00:08:06,010 Trefusis. 160 00:08:06,739 --> 00:08:13,600 Violet was a great love of Vita. She was the only woman that Vita 161 00:08:13,609 --> 00:08:17,399 was prepared to leave Harold for even though Vita was connected 162 00:08:17,410 --> 00:08:21,640 with a number of other people. But Violet was her great 163 00:08:21,649 --> 00:08:22,279 passion. 164 00:08:23,019 --> 00:08:26,399 Harold obviously had to be considerably more discreet and, 165 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:32,090 of course, it was illegal, but this gave Vita and Harold a 166 00:08:32,099 --> 00:08:37,039 mutual understanding of each other. And if anything, because 167 00:08:37,049 --> 00:08:40,150 they had that understanding, it brought them closer together. 168 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,789 ALAN POWER: And do you think that helped with the development 169 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:46,719 and the creation and the energy they had while they were at 170 00:08:46,729 --> 00:08:47,469 Sissinghurst? 171 00:08:48,419 --> 00:08:51,919 VICKY MCBRIEN: Very much so actually Alan, because they both 172 00:08:51,929 --> 00:08:55,909 had things in common but also individual interests. 173 00:08:56,299 --> 00:09:00,760 So Harold with his sort of more classical approach to things, he 174 00:09:00,770 --> 00:09:04,979 did that beautiful structure of the garden. Whereas Vita having 175 00:09:04,989 --> 00:09:09,929 that other romantic dimension to her, added that other colour and 176 00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:10,700 vibrancy. 177 00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:15,280 So it's having those differences in their personalities and yet 178 00:09:15,289 --> 00:09:18,919 those lovely things in common and that deep respect and love 179 00:09:18,929 --> 00:09:21,650 for each other, that really is a thing that's fed everything 180 00:09:21,659 --> 00:09:24,719 here, not just the gardens, but also our collection. 181 00:09:24,729 --> 00:09:26,770 ALAN POWER: Have you picked up hints and tips that have been 182 00:09:26,780 --> 00:09:29,640 useful for Troy or little nuggets of information about 183 00:09:29,650 --> 00:09:32,020 different parts of the garden at Sissinghurst that you've handed 184 00:09:32,030 --> 00:09:33,539 out the window, so to speak. 185 00:09:33,794 --> 00:09:35,734 VICKY MCBRIEN: Actually, yes, we're picking things up all the 186 00:09:35,744 --> 00:09:40,775 time in Vita's writing room. For instance, we do have a full 187 00:09:40,784 --> 00:09:45,575 press on all her gardening books and it's absolutely fascinating. 188 00:09:45,585 --> 00:09:47,815 ALAN POWER: It's wonderful, isn't it? I feel surrounded by 189 00:09:47,825 --> 00:09:51,489 information in here and clues to the past. It's been really 190 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:54,809 lovely to meet you, Vicky. Thank you so much. I'm off out to meet 191 00:09:54,820 --> 00:09:57,690 Troy again now. And spend some time in the garden. But I'll 192 00:09:57,700 --> 00:10:00,429 definitely have a few new pictures in my mind when I'm 193 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:01,840 going around the garden. Thanks to you. 194 00:10:01,979 --> 00:10:02,880 VICKY MCBRIEN: Lovely. Thank you. 195 00:10:07,219 --> 00:10:08,440 ALAN POWER: Hi Troy, how are you doing? 196 00:10:08,690 --> 00:10:09,200 TROY SMITH: Ok. 197 00:10:10,010 --> 00:10:12,270 ALAN POWER: And we're standing here now at the bottom of the 198 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,150 orchard. And I'm looking back towards the magnificent tower 199 00:10:15,159 --> 00:10:17,989 where I had that wonderful view of the garden earlier laid out 200 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:18,770 before me. 201 00:10:18,979 --> 00:10:21,869 The trees are bare and I'm standing next to a medieval moat 202 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,760 which really gives a strong hint of the deep history that's at 203 00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:29,030 Sissinghurst. What's on your list at the moment for the team 204 00:10:29,039 --> 00:10:29,590 to be doing? 205 00:10:30,010 --> 00:10:32,260 TROY SMITH: Yeah. Well, we're in December now, of course. And 206 00:10:32,289 --> 00:10:35,900 what we'd like to do is try and achieve all the rose pruning 207 00:10:35,909 --> 00:10:39,590 before Christmas. So probably that's the key task that we're 208 00:10:39,599 --> 00:10:42,599 underway with, but we're also very flexible because you have 209 00:10:42,609 --> 00:10:43,780 to go with the weather, of course. 210 00:10:43,789 --> 00:10:45,599 ALAN POWER: And I think speaking of the weather, we might get wet 211 00:10:45,609 --> 00:10:48,219 shortly because it's starting to come in, isn't it? These parts 212 00:10:48,229 --> 00:10:50,169 of the garden are actually closed at the moment, Troy, are 213 00:10:50,179 --> 00:10:50,390 they. 214 00:10:51,090 --> 00:10:55,659 TROY SMITH: We are, it's a fragile garden and therefore we 215 00:10:55,669 --> 00:10:58,400 have to be so careful that we get the balance between allowing 216 00:10:58,570 --> 00:11:02,159 lots of access for all of our visitors and sharing the work 217 00:11:02,169 --> 00:11:05,349 that we're doing. But also, of course, fundamentally, look 218 00:11:05,359 --> 00:11:08,890 after the garden and, and in these periods in the winter, 219 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,419 particularly with our heavy clay soil. 220 00:11:11,429 --> 00:11:14,390 It's just very difficult to, to get people around the garden 221 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,109 safely without causing that damage. So, yeah, these parts 222 00:11:18,119 --> 00:11:20,630 are closed, but there's lots of other things that visitors can 223 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:20,969 see. 224 00:11:20,979 --> 00:11:23,330 ALAN POWER: And there's another myth, isn't there Troy, that 225 00:11:24,219 --> 00:11:27,130 winters a quiet time for gardeners but it's not is it? 226 00:11:27,859 --> 00:11:30,599 TROY SMITH: No, you, you say that smiling and yeah, you're 227 00:11:30,609 --> 00:11:31,840 absolutely right of course. 228 00:11:31,849 --> 00:11:35,010 You know, it's almost, our busiest time- at this time of 229 00:11:35,020 --> 00:11:38,969 year between October really and February that the more enduring 230 00:11:38,979 --> 00:11:43,950 tasks happen, the renewal work, the vital conservation work. And 231 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,260 it's a lot of that which we're underway with right now. 232 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,489 ALAN POWER: Shall we mosey around the corner and have a 233 00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:49,049 look at? 234 00:11:49,150 --> 00:11:50,659 TROY SMITH: Yeah, let's take you and show you what we've been 235 00:11:50,669 --> 00:11:53,760 doing around here. 236 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,359 ALAN POWER: And what an amazing contrast to come through from 237 00:11:56,369 --> 00:11:59,000 the volume of the orchard through here. And there's a 238 00:11:59,010 --> 00:12:01,539 little bit of mystery in each bit that you travel through. 239 00:12:02,489 --> 00:12:04,989 Here we have a medieval wall and we have Azaleas planted on the 240 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,969 left hand side. You know, Azaleas from a completely 241 00:12:07,979 --> 00:12:10,380 different period, you know, introduced into this country. 242 00:12:10,539 --> 00:12:12,409 Are there plants that run through these borders that 243 00:12:12,419 --> 00:12:15,179 you're trying to stay true to the original design with? 244 00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:17,460 TROY SMITH: They are, we talked about the Azaleas. Actually, 245 00:12:17,469 --> 00:12:21,789 these ones here, I mostly reverted to the Azalea Mollis 246 00:12:21,799 --> 00:12:25,539 Luteum, the yellow flowered one beautiful in May with its scent. 247 00:12:26,090 --> 00:12:29,280 But actually, we know for a fact that Vita had all sorts of 248 00:12:29,289 --> 00:12:33,599 colours here, oranges, reds, gold colour Azaleas. 249 00:12:33,940 --> 00:12:38,929 And, she actually bought them from the prize fund for a piece 250 00:12:38,940 --> 00:12:43,520 of work which she wrote and she, I think she's, she had £125 251 00:12:43,530 --> 00:12:46,609 prize money. She went out and bought all of these Azaleas. 252 00:12:47,419 --> 00:12:50,150 So, what we're trying to do is we're working with partners in 253 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:53,000 the trust and one of our neighbouring garden Sheffield 254 00:12:53,010 --> 00:12:56,359 Park have some of those old varieties which actually you 255 00:12:56,369 --> 00:12:59,090 can't buy anywhere in commerce. So it's so nice to be able to go 256 00:12:59,099 --> 00:13:02,880 to Sheffield, get those plants micro propagated and bring them 257 00:13:02,890 --> 00:13:04,809 back and reintroduce them here at Sissinghurst. 258 00:13:05,330 --> 00:13:08,539 And so here, as well as the Azaleas, we've also got things 259 00:13:08,549 --> 00:13:11,260 like the Blue Poppies, Meconopsis, which are a 260 00:13:11,270 --> 00:13:13,140 wonderful sight in early spring. 261 00:13:13,150 --> 00:13:16,030 So if we walk a bit further, I can show you what we've done in 262 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:16,210 the nuttery. 263 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,669 So this is the nuttery and it's, it's a very special part of 264 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,539 Sissinghurst Alan because it's, it's actually one of the few 265 00:13:26,599 --> 00:13:29,739 bits of planting which were here when Vita and Harold arrived. 266 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:34,239 And very quickly they started to introduce plants under the 267 00:13:34,250 --> 00:13:38,929 canopy of the trees here. And right through for really 40 268 00:13:38,940 --> 00:13:41,799 years, it was something that Sissinghurst was very well known 269 00:13:41,809 --> 00:13:45,000 for people would come from a long way to see this whole 270 00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:48,919 carpet of brightly coloured Polyanthus under the canopy. 271 00:13:49,150 --> 00:13:51,609 ALAN POWER: It feels very different in here Troy, doesn't 272 00:13:51,619 --> 00:13:55,010 it? To the- we've walked past two compartments from the 273 00:13:55,020 --> 00:13:57,890 orchard through to the borders and in here it's a very, very 274 00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:00,590 different feel. Do the visitors give you that feedback as well? 275 00:14:00,869 --> 00:14:02,619 TROY SMITH: I think people do respond about the feel. It's a 276 00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:05,640 little bit more relaxed here and the, and the planting perhaps is 277 00:14:05,650 --> 00:14:06,849 a bit more achievable. 278 00:14:06,859 --> 00:14:10,250 It looks kind of casual and as if it's just happened, which of 279 00:14:10,260 --> 00:14:12,030 course people can respond to. 280 00:14:12,039 --> 00:14:15,469 You know, a garden needs to have pace and this part of 281 00:14:15,479 --> 00:14:18,390 Sissinghurst, you just relax and then move into the next space 282 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:19,359 which we can do now! 283 00:14:19,369 --> 00:14:22,320 If we walk up here, we can go into a part, which is one of my 284 00:14:22,330 --> 00:14:24,599 favourite parts of Sissinghurst, which is the Spring Garden. 285 00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:25,109 ALAN POWER: Yeah. 286 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,530 And this is completely different again, isn't it? You know, we've 287 00:14:30,539 --> 00:14:34,280 left the nuttery behind, but still down the length of the 288 00:14:34,419 --> 00:14:36,349 nuttery we're lucky enough at the moment in the winter that we 289 00:14:36,359 --> 00:14:38,080 can see the statue in the centre. 290 00:14:38,340 --> 00:14:41,890 And these lines left and right. It's a really, really rigid 291 00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:45,330 avenue of trees, isn't it? Really controlled? It feels as 292 00:14:45,340 --> 00:14:46,809 if it's on its best behaviour. 293 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:49,210 TROY SMITH: Yeah, it's, it is unusual for Sissinghurst but 294 00:14:49,219 --> 00:14:54,039 it's very formal lines. This was more Harold's area. She really 295 00:14:54,049 --> 00:14:57,409 left Harold to do the, the planting as well and he called 296 00:14:57,419 --> 00:15:00,640 it my life's work. And I think you can see in spring when 297 00:15:00,650 --> 00:15:03,169 you're here through March, April. May, you know, the amount 298 00:15:03,179 --> 00:15:06,320 of detail he devoted to this space. 299 00:15:06,330 --> 00:15:10,700 It's all planted with spring bulbs. So of every kind 300 00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:15,590 Fritillaries, Tulips, Narcissus. A whole range of things that 301 00:15:15,599 --> 00:15:19,940 just pop up effortlessly done... But actually, we know the work 302 00:15:19,950 --> 00:15:20,559 behind that. 303 00:15:20,809 --> 00:15:21,520 ALAN POWER: Nothing's effortless! 304 00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:23,690 TROY SMITH: I can only imagine the amount of effort that he 305 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:26,099 must have took devising the scheme and, and keeping it 306 00:15:26,109 --> 00:15:26,599 going. 307 00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:29,349 ALAN POWER: Vita and Harold were well travelled, weren't they 308 00:15:29,359 --> 00:15:31,549 Troy? And did- do you think their travels influence what 309 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:32,750 they were doing in the garden here? 310 00:15:32,750 --> 00:15:36,070 TROY SMITH: Very much, Yeah, they- I think were inspired all 311 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,979 the time with the places they went and the plants that they 312 00:15:38,989 --> 00:15:42,640 saw, whether it was tulips strewn on a hillside in the 313 00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:45,700 Middle East somewhere. And certainly when they saw that 314 00:15:45,710 --> 00:15:49,109 they wanted to replicate those ideas back at Sissinghurst. 315 00:15:49,119 --> 00:15:51,270 ALAN POWER: So, what's next on the list today, Troy? 316 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,299 TROY SMITH: Well, I think you should go to the rose garden now 317 00:15:53,309 --> 00:15:57,020 and look at the rose pruning and Helen's out, one of my gardeners 318 00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:59,030 and perhaps I'll catch up with you in the White Garden. 319 00:15:59,119 --> 00:16:00,940 ALAN POWER: Yeah, I'll see you in a bit then. Thanks a lot, 320 00:16:00,950 --> 00:16:01,210 Troy. 321 00:16:04,539 --> 00:16:07,289 So I've now moved into a different part of the garden at 322 00:16:07,299 --> 00:16:10,210 Sissinghurst and I use the word different because every 323 00:16:10,219 --> 00:16:13,659 compartment feels very different as I'm going through it on this 324 00:16:13,669 --> 00:16:17,440 Cold December day. But to my left, there's shadows of 325 00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:20,469 wonderful roses that would have looked stunning in June. 326 00:16:20,479 --> 00:16:24,640 And to my right, there's this glorious shadow of a border, but 327 00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:27,349 really, I'm standing here next to Helen Champion, one of the 328 00:16:27,359 --> 00:16:31,130 gardeners at Sissinghurst. And I want to know a little bit more 329 00:16:31,140 --> 00:16:34,900 about the historic collection of plants directly in your care at 330 00:16:34,909 --> 00:16:36,630 the moment because I know that you're pruning some of them at 331 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:37,349 the minute, aren't you? 332 00:16:37,710 --> 00:16:37,979 HELEN CHAMPION: Yes, I am. 333 00:16:38,059 --> 00:16:39,039 ALAN POWER: And how is it going 334 00:16:39,489 --> 00:16:41,849 HELEN CHAMPION: Fine... Except it's cold! but it's fine. 335 00:16:41,940 --> 00:16:44,020 ALAN POWER: It is cold, isn't it? I know exactly how it feels, 336 00:16:44,030 --> 00:16:46,549 standing on the ladder, pruning a rose in the middle of winter 337 00:16:46,559 --> 00:16:47,979 and the wind always finds you doesn't it? 338 00:16:47,979 --> 00:16:50,080 HELEN CHAMPION: And the layers of your clothing build up and up 339 00:16:50,090 --> 00:16:52,659 until you're like sort of Michelin Man and can hardly move 340 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,979 ALAN POWER: Hunting for your secateurs in your pocket. But 341 00:16:55,989 --> 00:16:59,419 Helen, can you tell me and you're obviously very close to 342 00:16:59,429 --> 00:17:01,859 it? What is so special about the collection of roses here? 343 00:17:01,869 --> 00:17:03,919 HELEN CHAMPION: Well, I suppose sometimes when we think about a 344 00:17:03,929 --> 00:17:06,270 collection of plants, we might think about a national 345 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,130 collection where all the plants are gathered together of a 346 00:17:08,140 --> 00:17:11,300 certain genus and just put in one place and looked after for 347 00:17:11,310 --> 00:17:14,550 posterity. But this collection is quite different. It's not 348 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:15,569 like that at all. 349 00:17:15,709 --> 00:17:21,020 It's created by one person and it was created by her for her 350 00:17:21,030 --> 00:17:26,050 own pleasure really. And Vita was very romantic and it was the 351 00:17:26,060 --> 00:17:29,819 romance of old roses that she really loved. So we have lots of 352 00:17:29,829 --> 00:17:35,103 Albas, we have Bourbons, Centifolia, Damasks, Gallica, 353 00:17:35,103 --> 00:17:38,260 etc. You know, she loved the fact that bourbon roses came 354 00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:38,979 from an island. 355 00:17:39,329 --> 00:17:41,410 She was very caught up in the romance of it. You know, the 356 00:17:41,420 --> 00:17:44,550 romance of the names. Cardinal De Richelieu, Belle de Crécy, 357 00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:49,319 Madame L'oreal De Barnet and the colours as well. That reminded 358 00:17:49,329 --> 00:17:52,959 her of the carpets that she saw when she travelled in Persia. 359 00:17:52,969 --> 00:17:57,109 And she particularly liked Tuscany Superb, this very deep 360 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:58,449 dark red. 361 00:17:58,660 --> 00:18:03,180 And she wrote the velvet rose, what a combination of words. And 362 00:18:03,189 --> 00:18:06,530 of course, then there was the scent, this heady powerful scent 363 00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:10,050 that old roses give out. And when she came to Sissinghurst, 364 00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:13,900 she finally had the space to indulge in her passion and she 365 00:18:14,060 --> 00:18:17,189 liked to plant very profusely, very lavishly. 366 00:18:17,199 --> 00:18:20,709 And so the rose garden is full of these roses and other 367 00:18:20,770 --> 00:18:26,339 herbaceous plants like Peonies, Irises, Eremurus, etc. And she 368 00:18:26,349 --> 00:18:29,219 said, oh, I'm drunk on roses. And I think that's a great 369 00:18:29,229 --> 00:18:32,219 expression and I love to think that people can still come here 370 00:18:32,469 --> 00:18:36,739 and see the roses that Vita planted and get drunk on roses a 371 00:18:36,750 --> 00:18:37,689 little bit themselves. 372 00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:41,439 ALAN POWER: And tell me, do you, are you close to finishing the 373 00:18:41,449 --> 00:18:43,989 collection, having the collection as intact as you'd 374 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,900 like it or have you got years of work ahead of you to carry on 375 00:18:46,930 --> 00:18:47,479 building it? 376 00:18:47,489 --> 00:18:49,650 HELEN CHAMPION: We were fortunate in that Vita's first 377 00:18:49,660 --> 00:18:53,319 head gardener, Jack Vass had made a list of all the roses 378 00:18:53,329 --> 00:18:56,979 that had been growing in the garden in 1953. So we're now at 379 00:18:56,989 --> 00:19:00,689 about 300 roses and I think we are nearly there. 380 00:19:00,699 --> 00:19:01,810 ALAN POWER: That's remarkable, isn't it? 381 00:19:01,839 --> 00:19:03,630 HELEN CHAMPION: Yeah, and exciting as well to have all 382 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,599 these new, roses in the garden. You know, we've got more mosses 383 00:19:07,609 --> 00:19:12,449 Général Kléber. We've got another Bourbon, Souvenir de la 384 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:12,670 Malmaison. 385 00:19:13,459 --> 00:19:16,609 Just loads. And that's just to mention, you know, two or three. 386 00:19:16,619 --> 00:19:18,069 But yes, they're all old roses. 387 00:19:19,099 --> 00:19:21,729 ALAN POWER: So we're, we're in December now and I walked past 388 00:19:21,739 --> 00:19:23,699 you earlier. You were in the middle of pruning one of the 389 00:19:23,709 --> 00:19:25,880 roses at the bottom of the tower. 390 00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:28,890 HELEN CHAMPION: Once we've done all the pruning on the walls, we 391 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:33,400 all come into the rose garden. It's a really nice combination 392 00:19:33,410 --> 00:19:37,640 of sort of technical skills where you're, you're doing the 393 00:19:37,650 --> 00:19:40,510 method of pruning, you know, taking out dead disease, damaged 394 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,859 wood to increase health and you're taking out some old stems 395 00:19:44,869 --> 00:19:47,439 to increase vigor and trying to get a lovely shape. 396 00:19:47,449 --> 00:19:50,560 But there's also the creative side of it. You know, we do this 397 00:19:50,569 --> 00:19:54,199 special training method and of course, you're thinking about 398 00:19:54,209 --> 00:19:58,260 how to train the rose so that it looks lovely, aesthetically, 399 00:19:58,270 --> 00:20:00,959 beautiful and will flower well. So there's that nice 400 00:20:00,969 --> 00:20:01,719 combination. 401 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,459 ALAN POWER: That's great. And you, you say we all, yeah, I, I 402 00:20:05,469 --> 00:20:08,219 had it in my head that maybe you do all of this all on your own. 403 00:20:08,670 --> 00:20:11,900 Presumably you've got lots of volunteers and help from staff 404 00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:12,109 and? 405 00:20:12,109 --> 00:20:14,459 HELEN CHAMPION: The volunteers at Sissinghurst are really 406 00:20:14,469 --> 00:20:18,329 fantastic and crucial to the sort of smooth running of the 407 00:20:18,339 --> 00:20:22,699 place. And we have about 370 that help overall, but we have 408 00:20:22,709 --> 00:20:26,000 30 that help in the garden. And in the summer we have two 409 00:20:26,010 --> 00:20:28,609 special groups that come in and they're called the Dead Headers. 410 00:20:28,739 --> 00:20:30,979 And then they start at the top of the rose garden and they sort 411 00:20:30,989 --> 00:20:34,430 of woosh their way all the way down, dead heading as they go. 412 00:20:34,650 --> 00:20:37,930 And when they finished the rose garden looks just totally 413 00:20:37,939 --> 00:20:40,760 amazing again. You know, it's really restored to its pristine 414 00:20:40,770 --> 00:20:41,319 state. 415 00:20:41,329 --> 00:20:43,359 ALAN POWER: Helen, thanks a million. I need to go and find 416 00:20:43,369 --> 00:20:45,829 Troy in the White Garden. There are so many routes through the 417 00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:47,974 garden here, which is the best one for me to take? 418 00:20:47,974 --> 00:20:50,194 HELEN CHAMPION: Well, we're in the Roundel now. So I would 419 00:20:50,204 --> 00:20:53,494 advise just going straight ahead. Look ahead and you'll see 420 00:20:53,505 --> 00:20:57,185 actually the vase in the White Garden, which is a brilliant 421 00:20:57,224 --> 00:21:02,244 viewpoint. And I think one of Harold's best design elements in 422 00:21:02,255 --> 00:21:05,734 this garden, this amazing view from the top of lime walk all 423 00:21:05,744 --> 00:21:08,594 the way through to the White Garden. So go and enjoy it. 424 00:21:08,775 --> 00:21:09,854 ALAN POWER: Thanks a million, cheers Helen. 425 00:21:09,854 --> 00:21:10,015 HELEN CHAMPION: Bye. 426 00:21:13,699 --> 00:21:16,069 ALAN POWER: Hi, Troy. How are you doing? Helen said, I'd find 427 00:21:16,079 --> 00:21:19,319 you over here coming into the White Garden again. You know, I 428 00:21:19,329 --> 00:21:22,530 love the brick work here. It gives a great sense of enclosure 429 00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:23,459 in the White Garden. 430 00:21:23,869 --> 00:21:27,400 And although we're almost in the depths of winter now, I can 431 00:21:27,410 --> 00:21:30,709 almost feel the luxurious floral display that comes in this 432 00:21:30,719 --> 00:21:34,699 garden. But for Vita, it was much more about the white 433 00:21:34,709 --> 00:21:39,040 flowers themselves, wasn't it in this place? How they showed 434 00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:41,030 themselves in the evening and at twilight. 435 00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:43,689 TROY SMITH: Yeah well, the White Garden is positioned as you can 436 00:21:43,699 --> 00:21:47,290 see here next to what we call the priest's house. And this is 437 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:50,810 where Vita and Harold would eat. So, you know, they slept in one 438 00:21:50,819 --> 00:21:54,270 place and worked in another. This is the house that they had 439 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:55,699 the kitchen and that they would eat. 440 00:21:56,010 --> 00:21:58,949 And so on an evening, they would spill out of the door there 441 00:21:58,959 --> 00:22:01,579 that, that we can see coming out from the side of the, of the 442 00:22:01,589 --> 00:22:05,439 house into that lovely seating area and of course, sit there 443 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,810 long into the evening. And so it seemed actually very sensible 444 00:22:09,819 --> 00:22:13,579 therefore to have a garden which really illuminated itself 445 00:22:13,589 --> 00:22:16,530 without artificial lighting at the end of the day. 446 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,489 ALAN POWER: And there are certain varieties and there's, 447 00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:20,760 you know, Phlox is one that really stands out in my head 448 00:22:20,770 --> 00:22:23,199 because they almost glow, glow in the dark, don't they? 449 00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:25,329 TROY SMITH: It's funny you should say that just down the 450 00:22:25,619 --> 00:22:29,010 flight of steps there, which we've recently restored Vita had 451 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,989 about as a little Phlox garden just because of the evening 452 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,060 light that used to capture. 453 00:22:34,349 --> 00:22:36,969 ALAN POWER: And they do. You know, it's something that goes 454 00:22:36,979 --> 00:22:39,489 right back to when I was at Mount Stewart, we had a Phlox 455 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:41,739 there that you could almost see your way home with it. It was 456 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:44,689 really, really, really beautiful, but I honestly can't 457 00:22:44,699 --> 00:22:48,209 think of a better place to kind of end our program today. 458 00:22:48,410 --> 00:22:51,930 I've learned so much meeting you and your team and actually, I 459 00:22:51,939 --> 00:22:55,270 feel as if I've got to know Vita and Harold a little bit better 460 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,229 today than the heart and soul they put into this place. But 461 00:22:58,239 --> 00:23:01,310 what's really come out for me, Troy is talking to you and your 462 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:04,829 team, the fact that your heart and soul is in it as well. 463 00:23:04,869 --> 00:23:06,800 TROY SMITH: It's lovely to hear that Alan because I think what 464 00:23:06,810 --> 00:23:10,260 we really try and strive for here is the sense that when 465 00:23:10,270 --> 00:23:13,640 everybody comes, every visitor, they feel that spirit, they 466 00:23:13,819 --> 00:23:15,160 sense Harold and Vita. 467 00:23:15,459 --> 00:23:17,229 ALAN POWER: I just want to say thanks for today. Thanks for 468 00:23:17,239 --> 00:23:20,359 showing me around and letting me borrow your team for a while. 469 00:23:20,369 --> 00:23:21,520 TROY SMITH: It's great to see you here again. 470 00:23:22,819 --> 00:23:25,069 ALAN POWER: If you've enjoyed this podcast, you can find more 471 00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:27,260 of them by searching for National Trust Gardens, 472 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,760 subscribe on itunes or follow us on your favorite podcast app. 473 00:23:31,140 --> 00:23:33,520 We'd love to know what you think of this series to help us make 474 00:23:33,530 --> 00:23:36,530 more of them in the future. So please do leave us a review on 475 00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:39,300 itunes as well as filling out our survey which you'll find in 476 00:23:39,310 --> 00:23:40,359 the program description. 477 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,640 This may well be the last full program in this series, but 478 00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:45,859 we'll be giving you some more little extras from Sissinghurst 479 00:23:45,869 --> 00:23:49,469 throughout the month such as how you can use no dig gardening if 480 00:23:49,479 --> 00:23:52,380 you've also got difficult clay soil and a little extra on the 481 00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:55,729 magic of meadows. But thanks for listening and hope you can join 482 00:23:55,739 --> 00:23:56,380 me again soon. 483 00:23:58,969 --> 00:24:01,270 BETTANY HUGHES: I'm Bettany Hughes. I've been visiting 484 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,839 National Trust Properties all my life. But in this series of 485 00:24:04,849 --> 00:24:09,640 podcasts, I'm going beyond the delights of tees and topiary to 486 00:24:09,650 --> 00:24:13,209 reveal the surprising European roots of some of the most 487 00:24:13,219 --> 00:24:14,869 splendid sites in England. 488 00:24:15,770 --> 00:24:19,325 You can subscribe to my series by searching for Bettany 489 00:24:19,325 --> 00:24:24,410 Hughes's 10 places Europe and us, on your podcast app.