Bill Geist: You know, the political side is crucial because we have to figure out how public money can match up with private money so that we can make the case that this is a great place for quality of life entrepreneurs and yeah, visitors. Adam Stoker: 00:17 Today's show is brought to you by a great partner of ours named Connect Travel. Connect Travel puts on the premier trade shows and conventions in the destination marketing industry. Coming up in February is the Marketing Leadership Summit and that's February 19th through the 21st in Kissimmee, Florida. We're really excited about that event. It has a unique format that we'll talk about a little bit later in the show, so go to connecttravel.com if you want more information. We hope to see you there. Welcome again, everyone to another episode of the Destination Marketing Podcast. I'm your host Adam Stoker and I'm excited to be with you today. Before we dive in to today's show, I want to remind everybody and I just got done this morning posting some content on our LinkedIn group, Destination Marketers. If you are listening and you haven't yet joined that group, you're missing part of the story because lots of times, we'll talk about assets or we'll talk about different content and then we'll post it after the show in the Destination Marketers LinkedIn group so you can actually see some of the stuff that we're talking about. So, if you haven't joined, go in, request to join, we'll add you and then you can be part of the community. The whole idea is learning and growing together. We're getting comments from several people within the industry and kind of learning together, so if you haven't done that yet, I'm excited to have you join our group, but we have an awesome, awesome show for you today and I'm excited to have our guest. He is the Chief Instigator at DMOproZ and he also hosts the DMOU podcast. That's Destination Marketing University. His name is bill Geist. I'm sure if you're in the destination marketing industry, you've heard of him. Bill, welcome to the show. Bill Geist: Adam, it's great to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. Adam Stoker: Oh, absolutely. You know, everywhere I go in the industry, I keep hearing your name and it's kind of like, "Man, I've got to get this guy on." Bill Geist: Well thank you. It's very kind. Adam Stoker: 02:15 Awesome. Well, I have a little icebreaker set of questions. Of course you know the drill, you've got your own show, and we'll make sure everybody by the end knows exactly where to find you and how to listen. But first of all to break the ice, tell me a little bit about your dream destination. If you'd go anywhere in the world, if there's anywhere you haven't been yet, where would it be? Bill Geist: 02:35 Well, there's a couple. So right now, I don't why. I'm focused on Malta and Portugal. Those are the two places internationally I want to go. But domestically, I still have not been able to nail down my all 50 states. And so interestingly, Vermont and New Hampshire are the last two and they're right next to each other. So I can't wait to get to one of them, get near the border and just put my foot in the other one. Boom. Got it. Adam Stoker: Just check those last two off the list. Bill Geist: 03:09 Yeah. So maybe this fall for full colors, we'll head up to New Hampshire and Vermont. But I don't know, just Portugal, I've been looking at Portugal for geez, a while because one of my daughters was a foreign exchange student and she said that the people there were, she goes, "Of all of Europe,", she said, "They struggle the most with the English language but they try the hardest." And that's what I want. I want to immerse myself in a culture of people who, regardless of language, are that welcoming. And she said Portugal was her absolute favorite and she did virtually every country in Europe and Malta, I'm not sure why. Adam Stoker: 03:54 Bill, before you get to Malta, let me just follow up on that. So you and I may have to go to Portugal together because I speak Portuguese. I could be your translator throughout the trip. Now I speak the Portuguese, that Brazilian speak because I spent two years in Brazil, and so we might have a little bit of a challenge with the dialect in Portugal but I think we could make it through and have a pretty awesome trip. What do you think? Bill Geist: 04:18 That would be great. I went to Greece earlier, well it was actually this last year and I went with somebody who spoke the language and it was amazing to watch how having somebody with language skills opens up doors because there were restaurants we went to that we would have had a great time. But the minute that he began to speak Greek, it was like anything you want, just doors opened and it was so yeah, let's definitely plan Portugal. Adam Stoker: I like it. I like it. We'll coordinate after the show. Bill Geist: Okay. Adam Stoker: Let's talk Malta. Bill Geist: 04:58 Yeah, I don't know what it is about Malta. It just appeals to me. It's a very arts and culture focused island. It's not on a lot of lists. I mean it's kind of one of those unknown destinations. You hate to go to a place like, and this is not fair, but Iceland became so over tourism because it was that cool next place. And so, I tend to look for places that aren't experiencing that. It's what's next. Adam Stoker: So you want it to still be a little bit undiscovered. So it's like you knew them before they were famous. Right? Bill Geist: Right. Absolutely. Adam Stoker: 05:40 Well, I've never actually researched Malta. Now I've got to go kind of find out what it is and learn more about it. So thanks for adding that one in my list. Bill Geist: You bet. Adam Stoker: How about places you've been, Bill? If you could look at one vacation that you've taken, what was your favorite destination that you've been to? Bill Geist: 05:57 You know, it goes a couple of different ways. I mean Sarasota and the Keys, those areas are fabulous. But probably my favorite experience ever was probably along the Maine coast, the state of Maine. And it was exciting and exhilarating because of the experience that was offered to us. And there was a guy, he's retired now and he's sold the business, so it's not there anymore, but he was in his, I don't know, 50s or 60s. This was 10, 15 years ago. And he had this little fishing shack. I mean, he was a lobster fisher. I mean he was, his dad was, his grandfather was, that was their deal. And we sat down one night when I was there with him and he says, "I keep going into town and people would see me and they'd see me out, I'm in my fisher gear and they would ask me questions about what to do and can I go out and lobster fish? Can I bicycle and do blueberries? Can I do this? Can I kayak?" And he says, there was nobody that was essentially curating the Maine coast experience. So he said, "I built a 20 unit dorm. I have a boat, I have all the tools." And he goes, "I create the Maine coast experience." And so one day you go out kayaking, one day you go blueberry picking, one day you go out looking for arts and culture. And of course the final day you go out and you are lobster fishing. So you're pulling the traps up. You're measuring the lobster because too small, too big, they have to go back into the ocean and 30 minutes after you get back from your excursion, you're eating lobster. And it was just one of those where every part of the Maine coast experience he was providing. And he wasn't a tourism guy, he was a lobster fisherman. But he tapped into this amazing vibe that he knew that that's what people wanted. They wanted that true experience. And so I look back over the years and I've been to some amazing places, but it was this guy who really wasn't from the tourism industry that figured it out and said, "I can expose you to what it's like to live here in Maine on the coast." And that was probably my favorite and my kids' favorite. They still talk about it. Adam Stoker: 08:33 Well Bill, that trip just sounds like a dream. It sounds like you guys had a great time as a family and I love that it was somebody that he didn't even have that tourism background that was able to, show you such a unique experience. So it sounds like a lot of fun. Bill Geist: 08:47 Yeah. And I think that's probably why it was so much fun. It was because he wasn't, I mean, it wasn't an expected experience. It was so different because he saw it from a different perspective and it's like, wow, this is really cool. I loved hanging out with him each evening. We would just chit chat about everything because every evening, he'd hang out with us in this big great room. I mean he would serve dinner and then you just hang around. There was no internet, there was no TV, there were board games and just conversation and it was a wonderful experience. Adam Stoker: Amazing. Amazing. Okay. I'll have to get the, in fact, what is the name of the guy? We might as well give him some PR if he created such a great experience. Bill Geist: Well he's retired now and he has sold the experience. It would be, it was called the Maine Coast Experience and I think it's gone now. I don't believe it's still in business, but it was a while ago. Adam Stoker: Okay. Well I ought to piece it together on my own then. Tell me a little bit about you, Bill. Tell me about your background and kind of how you got into tourism. Bill Geist: 09:56 Well, kind of a backdoor thing. I think like so many of us that are in destination marketing, that's not what you grow up wanting. I'm not going to be a fireman. I'm not going to be an astronaut. I'm not going to be a rockstar. Most people don't grow up thinking they're going to be in destination marketing. So I think we all somehow back into it. For me it was, I was in my hometown, the Convention and Visitor's Bureau in that community had an opening. I applied and lo and behold, I got it. I got the job. And so, learning on the job, but fell in love with it almost instantly. My mom always instilled, "You need to give back to your community." And I'm not sure I was in my previous profession, but I definitely realized that I was in destination marketing. So I spent four or five years in my hometown. Adam Stoker: When was that that you started at your hometown? Bill Geist: I started in the mid-80s. Adam Stoker: Awesome. Bill Geist: 10:58 So, yeah, I in a little town called Kankakee, Illinois, south suburbs of Chicago. We like to joke that the unofficial slogan is, it's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there. But then I had the opportunity in 1990 to go to the Madison Convention and Visitor's Bureau and I mean totally serendipitous. I mean, we're just, this is pre-internet. So I had no idea what was happening in Madison and they were just about to go to referendum to build a Frank Lloyd Wright designed convention center. And so boom, here I am in Madison, leading the referendum charge for the first couple of years, and then bringing it home when that thing started to come out of the ground. And it has absolutely transformed Madison. Madison is one of those communities that's on everybody's top 10 list. But people don't remember that in the 90s, early 90s, half of downtown was boarded up. I mean, it was almost a ghost town. It was really, really painful. But this convention center, and I'm not going to say that all convention centers will do this, but the convention center really was that shot in the arm and all of a sudden, we had three restaurants downtown. Well today, there's 53 restaurants downtown. So it just was that catalyst that brought Madison's downtown back from the brink. And so that was really the moment in time that I think, and we were hanging out, a number of us were at one of our industry conferences and we were all talking about the consultants that we were using. And the interesting thing was, is that while they were good at what they did, none of them had ever spent time in a convention visitor's bureau. And so, I don't know what got into me, but at one point I started to think, "Well, maybe that's me." So in 1995 I jumped, and put out the shingle and said, "Okay, these other guys out there that are doing the work are doing good work. But I've got the political side. I know what it's like to actually sit in the chair, and so, now 25 years later, here we are and it's been a great run. We've had an amazing time working with great destinations, great people for a quarter century. And it's just funny to say that. I mean, it seems like yesterday, but yeah. So that's kind of the storyline. Adam Stoker: 13:36 Well, and Bill, that's what I kind of love about, you've got your podcast DMOU and I have a marketing background. I've done a lot with destination marketing. I definitely have a deficiency on the political side, on a little bit more of the internal affairs that happen as opposed to bringing in visitors to the destination. And so listening to your podcast, I've really been able to get a more wide ranging education right on outside of even the marketing, what are all the other things that go into it, and it helps me to kind of understand, okay, what are my clients dealing with that I don't necessarily get exposed to? And I think you guys have a really well rounded base of education there. Bill Geist: 14:20 Well, and I wouldn't call it a deficiency because I mean that's why we get into this business, right? We're sales and marketers. That's what we love and we love our towns and we love our communities. The problem is that because we're working with public money, I mean I think the last time that Destinations International did a review of funding of DMOs, I think it was something like 83% on average of our budget is public tax money. And because of that, that makes this very political, and I got to give a shout out to Destinations International because they are doing some great work right now trying to change the narrative of what it is we do so that people understand that this public investment of revenue is critical to the life and quality of life of our communities. Joe and Joe Public don't get it. They think that it's their tax dollars and we're pissing it away doing all this marketing and silly stuff and it's like, no, absolutely not. This should be a shared community value. And that's the problem right now is we have become, those of us that are in leadership positions at destination marketing organizations are increasingly, we're politicians more than we are sales and marketers. And that's the sad part because it is the sales and marketing. One of my absolute favorite examples right now is Tulsa, Oklahoma. And so if you've never been to Tulsa, I think one could be excused for thinking that there's tumbleweed rolling down the street. And that's just not Tulsa. I mean, Tulsa is sophisticated. It's arts, it's culture, it's music. I love Tulsa. It's an amazing community. Adam Stoker: So I'm going there for the first time in April. Just FYI. I've got family there, so I'm excited to go check it out. Bill Geist: Make sure you go to the Cain Ballroom. It's a great music venue. Adam Stoker: Cain Ballroom, okay. Bill Geist: 16:24 But here's the deal, is that the major employers in Tulsa are having a hard time getting workforce there. They can't get MBAs, they can't get medical, they can't get engineers because nobody wants to go to Tulsa because they have this image that Tulsa's like, yeah, and they don't know. And so there are over 50 corporate entities in Tulsa that are writing checks every year to the Convention and Visitor's Bureau, not for tourism, but for image saying, "Make us look cool. To the tune, these 50 some corporations are investing $2 million collectively a year into an image campaign. And that's what I think destination marketing is becoming. It isn't just about heads in beds. It isn't just about tourists. It isn't just about conventions. It's actually, it's leading the brand for every possible person for every possible reason. And I think that's going to be the future of what we do. And so, the political side is crucial, back to your original question because we have to figure out how public money can match up with private money so that we can make the case that this a great place for quality of life entrepreneurs and yeah, visitors. Adam Stoker: 17:55 Yeah. Good stuff. In fact, I want to go back to one of the things that you said. You brought up Destinations International and I actually, I've listened to your podcast and learned a lot about Destinations International, so much so that I'm actually on track to, to start my CDME program this year and I'm excited to do that. So I was wondering if you could just, I think we have listeners that aren't necessarily, especially some of our smaller destinations that are listening, aren't necessarily up to speed on what Destinations International is and does and the opportunities that come along with it. Would you mind speaking to that? Bill Geist: 18:29 Absolutely. Destinations International is our trade association. And this is where you go for education. This is where you go for political advocacy. This is an organization that represents all of us in the DMO world and whether you're a member or not, I mean their job is to make sure that we are all as good as we can be. So I would say yeah, it's an investment. I mean it's not inexpensive dues to get in, but the value of being able to hang with other destination marketing organizations to go online, to get into their, I mean, what did we use to call them, I can't even think of the name now, but I mean there are the opportunities to ask questions in a forum, online forum, say, "Hey, I'm, I'm thinking about going in this direction, has anybody had any experience there?" And then boom, all of a sudden, you've got 15 other DMOs around the world who will say, yeah, we tried it and we did this, we did that. Make sure that you don't make this mistake or make sure that you do this. And so just the ability to network. I mean, people ask me a lot of times they say, "Well, should I go to a U.S. Travel Association event or should I go to a Destinations International event?" And I say, "If you learn by networking, it's Destinations International, hands-down." I mean, U.S. Travel has some fabulous speakers at ESTO and some of their events, but it's the networking that is I think the key at Destinations International is you get to meet people who are doing what you do. And everybody in this industry, funny enough, we all share like crazy. I came from broadcast and in broadcast, you are cutthroat as hell and all of a sudden you get into destination marketing. And when we were doing the original DMOU back when it was a teleseminar, we did 125 interviews over five or six years. And I only had one person who declined an interview, and I called him and I said hey, I said, "You have one of the best sales departments in the country." I said, "I'd love to talk to you about that." And he says, "Nah, not really." And honestly, I laughed because I thought he was shining me. And I said, "Really?" He says yeah, he goes, "I got no real need to share our success with my competitors." But that was one in 125 requests for an interview. And so it's an amazing sharing opportunity and Destinations International really enables that. Adam Stoker: 21:27 Well, you brought up the two types of shows you could go to, right? You can go hear a big inspirational speaker. I went to the Texas Travel Summit last year and they had a juggler on stage and he was juggling while riding a unicycle. And he came up with a really great inspiring message. And I think everybody left that meeting with great attitude and excitement and then it was kind of like, okay, well what do we do with that? And Texas Travel Summit had some great additional speakers, including me, that kind of helped with the tactical recommendations. But the thing that I think, my philosophy is inspiration is great, but to know what I can sit down at my computer tomorrow and execute on, that's kind of what you're saying is the learning by networking and saying, "Okay, now I know that I can reach out to this group and I can get feedback on the exact problem that I'm having." Because guess what, the problems that you have in destination marketing, it's very rare to find one that somebody hasn't been through before. Bill Geist: Right, exactly. Right. Absolutely. Adam Stoker: Cool. Bill Geist: 22:34 That's really what I love about Destinations International is you make lifelong friends that you can reach out to at any time and they got your back and they'll have solutions for you though. They'll have suggestions for how you deal with whatever that issue is. Adam Stoker: 22:51 I mentioned earlier that today's show is brought to you by Connect Travel. Their marketing leadership summit is coming up in February. I had the opportunity to go last year and it was such an interesting format. It's actually a format that allows you as a destination to sit down with suppliers for a few minutes, a short period of time to see if you want to continue the conversation. It allowed me to really meet with several people and get to know their needs quickly and build a quick relationship so that we could see if we wanted to continue the conversation. If you're looking for new technologies, new products and new partners, it's a great way to have a quick introduction without taking too much of your time. I hope to see you there February 19th through the 21st in Kissimmee, Florida and President Obama will be speaking this year, so we're excited for that event and we'll see you there. Well, I'm big on industry education and I know that there's that CDME certificate, and I've been looking into it for quite some time. I think a lot of our listeners either aren't aware of it or maybe just haven't pulled the trigger to get their CDME training. Do you want to talk a little bit because you've been through it, right Bill? Bill Geist: 23:59 You know, actually I haven't. No, but I absolutely support it. CDME began after I was already pretty established in my consultancy. So it was one of those things where I probably should have done it, but I thought I knew what I needed to know and I've just moved on. Having said that, I think both CDME and DMAP, which is the accreditation program for destination marketing organizations, both of them are, well CDME is essentially MBA style education. You're going to hang out with 30 or 40 of your peers and you're going to be led through top to bottom, the destination advocacy, marketing, social media. I mean, everything that we do, you're going to be taught by people who have been very, very successful in those areas. And I think that for many of us, we'll go in and we'll say, "Okay, I'm learning a few new things, but this is pretty much what I already know." But there's an advantage to that. That means you're on the right track. You're being validated that you're actually, you're doing it, and so that validation I think is important. The CDME program is one of those things that you can carry with you. It's like an MBA. It's a certification that when it's time to go to that next destination, having CDME next to your name, that's not little stuff. Adam Stoker: It's a big differentiator, right? Bill Geist: 25:54 Yeah. I mean, there are not that many CDMEs out there. And so, it's one of those things that frankly puts you in a better position I think, as you begin to build your career, go to the next step, the next size destination, if that's what you want to do. And it just is a great network. Again, it's great networking. And then the DMAP program is organizational. So CDME is for you as a person. DMAP is for the organization and there's really, I think only like 250 organizations that have earned the destination accreditation program certificate. And so that also I think is one of those things where when politics of gets in the way and people begin to question whether you know what you're doing and your best practice, you should go, "Hey, we're one of only 250 out of who knows how many DMOs there are in the world, 6,000, 10,000?" And it's rigorous. It's tough. But my favorite story was that Jack Wert from Naples, Florida was one of the very first bureaus to go through DMAP accreditation and they failed on their first round, and he shook his head and he goes wow. He goes, "We thought we were nailing this thing. We thought we had it all going on." And he said, "I recommend DMAP for everybody because it really shows you, hey, you're missing this, you haven't considered this. And you really, to be the best of the best, you need to be doing these kinds of things." And they nailed it on their second application, but he'll tell anybody that this really was making the organization better. You may think that you've got it going on, but when you put your organization up against the top 20 in the world, you go, "Oops, missed that one." And so, it's pretty cool. And that's really what Destinations International I think brings to all of us. And one of the interesting things that just broke over the past couple of weeks is that a lot of times, people were joining the former DMAI, now Destinations International because they wanted access to the meeting planner database. DMAI was known during that period of time as having this amazing database where I may never have known about these 20 associations, but they actually would fit in my market, and I could get all the contact information. I mean it was a very sharing kind of a thing. They've just nailed down a deal with Simpleview that it's now being called Mint Plus. And in the next year or so, there is going to, I mean this database is going to be cleansed and it's going to be huge. And so anybody who's in the meetings and events side of destination marketing, they need to be a part of Destinations International because this database had gotten a little long in the tooth and now, the new freshly scrubbed version is going to be pretty freaking cool. So there's a lot of things that DI is doing right now that are really exciting. So, and full disclosure, I'm on the board of directors of the foundation for Destinations International, but I really believe the organization is on the right track and doing some great stuff and regardless of your size, I think it's worth a look. Adam Stoker: Well, that's exciting news about the new database. I've got Simpleview slated to come on in February on the show and so I'll definitely have to make that a discussion point and maybe go a little deeper on that product. Bill Geist: Yeah. Yeah. What Simpleview is offering to do on behalf of the industry is amazing and we're really excited to see what happens. Adam Stoker: 30:09 Great, great. Well, I want to shift gears a little bit. Obviously you have a consultancy that works with destinations across the country. Do you work with any international destinations, Bill? Bill Geist: We've done a couple. We did some work in Belize, we've done a little work in Canada, but really we're fairly domestic. Adam Stoker: 30:28 Great, great. So you've seen a lot, right? And you've seen a lot both on the marketing side and probably on the operational side and the political side. But I would say let's focus a little bit on the marketing side. What are some of the things that you've seen that kind of keeps coming up? Maybe mistakes people make without calling out any past acquaintances or anything like that, just what do you see at the industry level that it's like, man, everybody needs to know to do this better. You know what I mean? Bill Geist: 30:56 Yeah. And I think the number one thing that we see that we just wince every time we see it is when destinations aren't intentional about their imagery. And I can see it going both ways, but I see an awful lot of white faces in a lot of destination marketing stuff. And I see an awful lot of boomers. I don't see the breadth of faces that are Gen Z all the way to through boomers. I don't see multiple colors, and I think that is inadvertently we're shooting ourselves in the foot because for whatever reason, and I think it's probably because it's easy, we're working off of old school image libraries and I'll just give you an example. This isn't a DMO example, but I remember about a year ago I was in the whatever it's called, the people mover, the train in the Atlanta airport and on the windows they had all kinds of ads for the retail and the restaurants and all the things that are going on in the concourse. And there was one ad, one window that showed three different pictures of interaction between essentially retail or waitstaff and the consumer. And in each of the three, the consumer was white and the waitstaff or the retailer was African American. I was like, "What?" How did this get past the review process? How did somebody not say, "Wait a minute, this doesn't look right." And I got to tell you, I see it all the time in destination marketing and that's it. I think it's the biggest issue we have. Now, not to get too philosophical here, but there's also the other side of the question and that is what if your destination is 95% white? Should you have faces of color in large numbers? Adam Stoker: I'd love your opinion, Bill. What do you think? Bill Geist: 33:21 Well, and that's just it. That's the problem. Do we market for aspiration because we want to be culturally inclusive or do we market for reality? Because what's going to happen if half of our images are faces of color and somebody of color comes to our destination and goes, "Wait, this looks pretty white to me." It's a problem. And yet that's the conversation I think we need to have. I think our imagery needs to be more inclusive. And so, however we get there, to your point, what's the biggest mistake we see? The biggest mistake I think we see is that our imagery is not representative of who we are. Adam Stoker: 34:06 That's really interesting. And I think it's powerful that you've been doing this as long as you have, you've been working with as many destinations as you do and you're bringing up something that is as simple as photography, when in reality, it's the little things that you do as a destination that really move the needle. And so I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I've seen ski jackets from the 80s in an ad or in a photo database when we bring on a new client or something like that. And it's like, "Man, we got to get a photographer out there and we got to get them out there quick." And so, yeah, I think photography, it's a simple thing, but if you think about how the photography affects the entire, whether it's the website or the advertising or the print ads or whatever that goes along with it, well, the photography is the most visible part of that whole thing. and so I love that you're bringing up one of the fundamentals of destination marketing. Bill Geist: 35:04 Yeah, and it was funny, we did some, one of the services we offer is we test tourism video, not unlike what you'll see coming up in the presidential debates. Both FOX and CNN will have panels listening to the debates. And then afterwards though they'll go through and you can see and you've seen these, the video with the lines that show whether somebody likes what they're hearing or hates what they're hearing. Well we use the same technology on tourism ads. And it's really fascinating to see the things that we all believe are, this is a tourism specific image and it's golf. And every time somebody puts golf in a video, the lines drop into like 30% likeability instantly. Well, what do you mean? Golf, tourism, it's the same. Golf is wonderful. Yeah, it is. But most people don't want to see golf. I mean, only 9% of Americans still golf and even less golf when they're on vacation. But we think that that makes sense. So the point is it was funny, we were doing some focus groups I think in Atlanta and we were showing some images of African American families doing cool stuff. And after the thing was over, an African American woman came up and she gave me a hug and she goes, "On behalf of your client, just tell them thank you for including us, but we don't look like that." And we had to go back and look and the images that we were showing were African American, but it looked like, what was the guy's name in Fresh Prince? Adam Stoker: Will Smith? Bill Geist: No, not Will Smith. The other guy. Adam Stoker: Carlton. Bill Geist: 37:13 Carlton. The actors were dressed up like Carlton and we're going, "God, you're absolutely right." And she came up to us and she said, "Hey, thank you. You tried, you failed, but you tried." And I just think we have to be more focused. I think that we need to make sure that our imagery works. Adam Stoker: 37:39 Totally makes sense. Okay, that's something that destinations need to improve on. What are you seeing out there that's being done well? What do you like or is there a specific campaign out there that you really like right now? Bill Geist: 37:50 I think I like the campaigns that turn people's previously held beliefs on their head. Salt Lake has done a great job with this. A couple of years ago they did a great campaign saying, "No fun allowed." And so the concept was you can't come here and you can't drink and you can't have fun. And that's because we're Mormon and just take it and just turn it on its head. Because the club scene, the night life in Salt Lake City is fabulous, but people don't know that because they have this image that it's something else. So the campaigns I love are the ones that take a commonly held belief and flip it and say that's not what we are, we are this. I mean, there was one a number of years ago in Leavenworth, Washington, which is a very huge Bavarian destination, but they had a bunch of women, fairly scantily clad women in essentially a rap video dancing to this total disco kind of thing going on. It's like, that is so not Leavenworth. And the director almost got fired for it until a week later there's like 200,000 views on YouTube. I mean, that's what I love is- Adam Stoker: Yeah, going against the grain a little bit. Bill Geist: 39:32 Much as it got beat up a lot, I loved the Australian campaign a number of years ago where the spokesmodel comes out of the water and goes, "Where the bloody hell are you? Why aren't you here?" I think we're in that, for at least me, I need to shake preconceived notions and the things that stand out. The typical is, I mean it's nice, it's a great reminder that we want to go someplace. But I think that the campaigns I like are the ones that are a little edgy. Rockford, Illinois is a great example. They will take an opportunity. So a number of years ago, Rockford was named by Forbes as the third most miserable place in the world to be. And Rockford's I mean, I don't even know why Forbes does that. That's just dumb. But they do. I don't know why they think that that's going to sell magazines, but they do. But within a week, that bureau came back with a YouTube video and I would encourage people to go and go to YouTube and go Rockford and misery. Adam Stoker: Well, you know what, we'll post it in the Destination Marketers LinkedIn group after the show. Bill Geist: 40:52 Okay. And it essentially says, "Hey, recently, Forbes said that we're the third most miserable place in the world. Forbes Schmorbes. Does this look like misery to you, Steve?", as in Steve Forbes. And the next two minutes are these fabulous images of people in Rockford having amazing times and laughing and fun and outdoor recreation and it just, the ability to take a lemon and turn it into a sensational lemonade is one of the things that Rockford, Illinois has done very well over the past couple of years. And so their videos have been the kinds of that really impressed me as this is pretty cutting edge stuff. Adam Stoker: 41:38 Oh, that's great stuff. Well, it reminds me of one of my favorite campaigns that we actually had John Ricks. In fact, I bet you know John from Nebraska. Bill Geist: He worked for Wisconsin Tourism. Adam Stoker: 41:50 Oh, that's right. Yeah, he did mention that. So we had him on the show a couple of months ago and he talked a little bit about their Nebraska, Honestly it's not for Everyone campaign and the copy in that campaign is just brilliant. And anyway, we had a fun conversation. And once again it's, I think the days of, "Hey, I can do this safe campaign that every stakeholder is going to feel great about and it's marketing by committee." And those days of being effective with that kind of a message, I think they're over. I think you've got to push the envelope and push the envelope does not mean inappropriate. It just means different. It means standing out because in the social culture of today where you can go on Instagram and see just about every destination in the world, there's not very many best kept secrets anymore. And so, standing out and cutting through the clutter, I think makes a huge, huge difference. Bill Geist: Yeah, absolutely. Adam Stoker: 42:51 Well, Bill, we've talked about a lot and I think I could talk to you a lot longer. In fact, maybe we'll have to do a follow-up episode sometime, but tell me for one, what you think the next five to 10 years holds for the industry. In fact, let's start there. And then I've got one more question after that. Bill Geist: 43:13 I think we've got two things going on that we need to keep our eye on and one of them is that we increasingly are going to come under fire for this being fluff, that what we do isn't relevant, it's not worthy of public sector finance. And I think we just need to continue, as Jack Johnson and the folks at Destinations International are doing, we need to find a way to communicate that this is a shared community value. And the unfortunate part about being a shared community value is you have to explain what that means, and what it means for Destinations International and for Jack and for all the work that they're doing is nobody wants to cut education, nobody wants to cut police and fire and clean water and healthcare. So why would they cut destination marketing? And we need to be just as much of a shared community value as those other issues are. So that's going to be part of I think where we need to go. The other part, honestly, I'm kind of realizing that we're all getting close to being gathered up in this over-tourism thing and you think, "Okay, that's Venice and it's Amsterdam and it's all these other destinations." And yet I was out west earlier this week in a very small community that is dealing with over tourism. And the over-tourism issue is that there were, as of this point in 2018, there were 200 AirBnB. At this point, in 2019 there were 600 AirBnBs. And we're not talking about how this is impacting hotels. We're talking about how this is impacting real estate, that as more and more houses are transferred over to sharing economy, that makes it really expensive for people in the tourism industry to live or anybody to live. That people now, I mean a house that a couple of years ago was maybe $200,000 is now $400,000 and I think those are the two issues that I think we're going to need to deal with is one is how do we prevent the tourism economy from being blamed for over-tourism. And also getting back into the whole shared community value thing. So those are, and neither one of them are marketing, right? I mean, and I think that's why this is becoming such a sophisticated view of the world is when I got into this business, I mean, you just placed a lot of ads. It was as easy as that and now you're dealing with social issues that you never would have imagined 20, 30 years ago. Adam Stoker: I think those are great points and while it's not marketing, it's something that all the destination marketers that are listening are going to have to help navigate one way or another. Bill Geist: Yep, absolutely. Yep. Adam Stoker: Well Bill, one more question. Is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you feel like would really benefit our audience to hear? Bill Geist: 46:40 You know, you've really nailed it with your questions. I think that we've gone the breadth and the width of what destination marketing is becoming. As I said a little earlier, I think that where destination marketing needs to go in the future is that we are the brand manager, we are the content curator for every person, for every possible reason. This is more than heads in beds. This is more than tourism. This is about entrepreneurship. This is about long-term sustainability of our communities. I mean, we need to, I mean there was a great research program that was done four or five years ago by Longwoods International, one of the most respected tourism research firms in the nation, and they absolutely proved the connection between tourism, advertising and entrepreneurship, starting a business in a new town, going to a new, people selecting university when they're 18, that they're looking at tourism advertising and saying, "Maybe I want to go to the University of Montana." What we do is so much more than heads in beds. And I think that that's really, that's the future of, I think where destination marketing goes. I was talking to somebody the other day and they were saying, "Well, there's this whole DMO, is it destination marketing? Is it destination management?" I say, "We're trying so hard to save the M." And I said, "What it really is and what our organizations do is we're DLOs. We're destination leadership organizations." You can't manage independent businesses throughout your community. There's no way you're going to manage the destination, but you can certainly lead it. And I think that that's our role going forward. Adam Stoker: 48:42 And what a powerful point over the responsibility that it is to be a destination marketer. Because you literally, whether you like it or not or know it or not, the decisions you make now for the destination organization are really going to impact the future of that destination in perpetuity. And so to think about that impact and am I doing a good job with this destination today? We talked about the Destinations International trainings that are out there, and there's a lot of other educational resources as well, but am I using my time at this destination correctly knowing that it's going to affect not just heads in beds for the next 10 years, but the actual future of the destination as a whole? I think that's a really powerful statement. Bill Geist: 49:28 Yeah, it really is. And I think that our responsibility has really grown over the past 10, 15, 20 years. And yeah, I think that tomorrow's leaders in this industry are going to be all about that. It's going to be far more about the future of the community as a viable entity, organism, whatever you want to call it, and less about heads in beds. Adam Stoker: 49:53 Absolutely. Well, Bill, this has been fun. I appreciate you coming on. I look up to you in the industry. Like I said, I hear your name everywhere I go and it's a pleasure to have you on and speak with you today. Bill Geist: 50:05 Well thank you so much and we can't wait to have you on DMOU in the next couple of months. It should be fun. I think that we are both, our guests are from different quadrants if you will. I love listening to yours and your viewpoints and the guests that you have and they're very different than the ones that we have on DMOU, and so I think there's going to be a great little, what would you call it, crosspollination as we get you on DMOU in the near future. Adam Stoker: Yeah. Lots of room to work together. I'm looking forward to it. Bill Geist: So are we. Adam Stoker: 50:42 Well everyone, this has been another episode of the Destination Marketing Podcast. Thanks for joining us today. Quick reminder, if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating or review that helps us continue to kind of climb up the charts and get recognized and have more destinations be able to hear us. So check that out. And other than that, oh Bill, I'm sorry, I still got you right? Bill Geist: Yeah, still here. Adam Stoker: Tell us how to find your podcast and your website please. Bill Geist: Probably the easiest is just go to our website at DMOproZ, and that's Proz with a Z. So D-M-O-P-R-O-Z dot com and you can find everything there. Adam Stoker: Great, great. Well, thanks again and thanks for listening everyone. We'll see you next week.
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