1 00:00:08,060 --> 00:00:11,000 KATE MARTIN: Hello and welcome to the National Trust Podcast. 2 00:00:11,050 --> 00:00:15,119 I'm Kate Martin. Lead Ranger at Formby in Liverpool. And today 3 00:00:15,130 --> 00:00:18,940 I'll be visiting Exmoor in North Devon. The project team at the 4 00:00:18,950 --> 00:00:21,989 Holnicote estate are trailing an experimental and rather 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,319 surprising way to tackle climate change. 6 00:00:24,790 --> 00:00:27,670 I'll be checking out their new flood management scheme and 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,010 learning why it may have the potential to bring back a 8 00:00:30,020 --> 00:00:34,680 habitat that hasn't been seen in the UK for over 400 years. 9 00:00:41,509 --> 00:00:45,729 Exmoor National Park occupies almost 700 square kilometres of 10 00:00:45,740 --> 00:00:49,069 North Devon's rugged moorland and shingle beaches. To the 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,470 north of this area is the Holnicote Estate, a 32 square 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,060 kilometre National Trust managed segment of this parkland. Its 13 00:00:56,069 --> 00:00:59,590 coastline, ancient woodland, a network of rivers, make it a 14 00:00:59,599 --> 00:01:01,799 wonderland for the outdoor enthusiast. 15 00:01:02,310 --> 00:01:04,760 The area that I'm walking through at the moment is sort of 16 00:01:04,769 --> 00:01:08,440 a natural bowl where you've got these sort of rolling hills. So 17 00:01:08,449 --> 00:01:11,559 there's a real sort of abundance of natural features here. But 18 00:01:11,569 --> 00:01:14,930 ironically, some of these natural features that contribute 19 00:01:14,940 --> 00:01:17,529 to the climate concerns that have plagued this area for 20 00:01:17,540 --> 00:01:18,370 decades. 21 00:01:22,430 --> 00:01:24,620 NIGEL HESTER: I'm Nigel Hester, and I live within the Holnicote 22 00:01:24,629 --> 00:01:28,080 Estate near Allerford. It’s a tiny hamlet of about six 23 00:01:28,089 --> 00:01:30,839 buildings, lovely cottages, as you can see. 24 00:01:32,180 --> 00:01:34,879 And it's a absolutely perfect place to live. 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,230 There are two river catchments here. The Horner rises high on 26 00:01:39,239 --> 00:01:43,620 the moor and the Aller comes down the Vale behind us. And 27 00:01:43,629 --> 00:01:44,510 they both meet. 28 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,400 Today actually they're flowing nice and gently and it's all 29 00:01:48,410 --> 00:01:55,190 very lovely. You get a heavy downfall of rain and the water 30 00:01:55,199 --> 00:01:58,190 just comes off these steep hills. You've just get a torrent 31 00:01:58,199 --> 00:02:01,769 coming down. It's looking to spill out and it spilled out 32 00:02:01,779 --> 00:02:03,669 into the villages, flooding the cottages. 33 00:02:05,620 --> 00:02:09,300 The worst one I remember was back in 2000 when most of the 34 00:02:09,309 --> 00:02:11,720 cottages in Allerford and Bossington got flooded out. 35 00:02:13,250 --> 00:02:16,919 But I remember one cottage, literally, that the sewer burst 36 00:02:16,929 --> 00:02:20,309 and all the effluent came up into the house. Completely 37 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,880 ruined The whole house. It happened at night time, which is 38 00:02:22,889 --> 00:02:26,479 worse somehow because it's quite scary. It's the uncertainty of 39 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:28,889 not knowing when it's going to happen and then the total 40 00:02:28,899 --> 00:02:29,929 disruption to your life. 41 00:02:34,029 --> 00:02:36,380 KATE MARTIN: I can see a group of stone buildings, which I 42 00:02:36,389 --> 00:02:40,179 assume is the estate office. Hopefully someone there will be 43 00:02:40,190 --> 00:02:44,050 able to put me in the direction of the estates project manager 44 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:47,080 and the driving force behind the flood management scheme that he 45 00:02:47,089 --> 00:02:50,360 believes will be able to help solve some of the area's water 46 00:02:50,369 --> 00:02:52,107 management issues. 47 00:02:52,107 --> 00:02:54,542 UNKNOWN: Alright? 48 00:02:54,542 --> 00:02:56,410 KATE MARTIN: Hi are you Ben? 49 00:02:56,410 --> 00:02:58,410 UNKNOWN: No, I'm not. Ben. I'll just get him for you. 50 00:02:58,479 --> 00:02:59,220 KATE MARTIN: Oh, Cheers. 51 00:02:59,460 --> 00:03:01,539 UNKNOWN: Ben, there's someone here to see you. 52 00:03:03,850 --> 00:03:04,639 BEN EARDLEY: Hey, is it Kate? 53 00:03:04,649 --> 00:03:05,070 KATE MARTIN: it is. 54 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:05,880 BEN EARDLEY: Hey, how you doing? 55 00:03:05,910 --> 00:03:07,820 KATE MARTIN: I believe you’ve got some issues with flooding? 56 00:03:07,830 --> 00:03:09,960 BEN EARDLEY: Obviously, with climate change, we're seeing 57 00:03:09,970 --> 00:03:13,190 more frequent and more extreme weather. But some of the issues 58 00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:16,259 are also to do with how the rivers and streams here have 59 00:03:16,270 --> 00:03:19,440 been managed. That in itself has caused and does cause issues as 60 00:03:19,449 --> 00:03:24,630 well. Now we're learning how we can work with nature to benefit 61 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,149 those downstream communities. 62 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:27,639 KATE MARTIN: It would be good to see some of the work that you 63 00:03:27,649 --> 00:03:29,919 doing so err, any chance we can go and have a look? 64 00:03:29,929 --> 00:03:32,710 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah, it does get a bit muddy up there. So the only 65 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,960 way we're going to get there really is, is in the Gators. 66 00:03:34,990 --> 00:03:36,520 KATE MARTIN: I’m intrigued, what’s a Gator? 67 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:38,800 BEN EARDLEY: That's the only vehicle that's going to get us 68 00:03:38,809 --> 00:03:41,119 there. Let me pop and get it from the shed for you... 69 00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:56,029 There she is. 70 00:03:56,970 --> 00:04:00,550 KATE MARTIN: So it's a golf buggy with off road tires. 71 00:04:00,860 --> 00:04:03,699 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah, I guess it is a souped up golf buggy. It's 72 00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:06,639 diesel. It's four wheel drive. Got a flatbed in the back, seats 73 00:04:06,649 --> 00:04:08,600 for people. It’s even got a drop top. 74 00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:09,650 KATE MARTIN: It's a convertible. That's what you’re telling me? 75 00:04:09,650 --> 00:04:09,880 BEN EARDLEY: Exactly Yeah. 76 00:04:11,570 --> 00:04:12,479 KATE MARTIN: We gonna go for a spin? 77 00:04:12,679 --> 00:04:14,320 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah. Let's get on up to the site. 78 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:30,929 KATE MARTIN: This vehicle’s fantastic! Going off road, but 79 00:04:30,940 --> 00:04:32,420 we're going on the road as well. 80 00:04:33,750 --> 00:04:35,820 Seems to do absolutely everything. 81 00:04:38,049 --> 00:04:41,220 It's a great place to appreciate the landscape because it's all 82 00:04:41,230 --> 00:04:44,559 sort of open sided. I can see the villages. You can see 83 00:04:44,570 --> 00:04:47,519 people's houses. Obviously, these are the people who are 84 00:04:47,529 --> 00:04:51,029 affected by the flooding. But there's also a fantastic 85 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,269 landscape and I imagine a real abundance of wildlife. So what 86 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,929 effect do these flooding events have on the wildlife? 87 00:04:58,260 --> 00:05:00,570 BEN EARDLEY: This landscape looks beautiful, but it's 88 00:05:00,579 --> 00:05:04,809 actually suffered significant declines in biodiversity. 89 00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:09,630 So what we'd like to do is to help increase biodiversity, 90 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,989 bring some of that lost wildlife back. Ironically, what we'd like 91 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,329 to see in certain areas of the landscape is more water. 92 00:05:18,489 --> 00:05:22,149 Creating space for water upstream we can help to reduce 93 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:23,869 flooding downstream. 94 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,429 KATE MARTIN: And I also believe that you are doing something a 95 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:29,640 little bit special? 96 00:05:29,679 --> 00:05:31,989 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah, we've got our own flood engineers, if you 97 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,649 like. So why don't we drive on a bit further and I'll show you 98 00:05:34,660 --> 00:05:35,510 what I'm talking about. 99 00:05:41,579 --> 00:05:44,730 KATE MARTIN: We've come off the roads now. We're actually going 100 00:05:44,739 --> 00:05:50,859 down quite a bumpy track, we’re just going through a river now. 101 00:05:51,149 --> 00:05:52,339 BEN EARDLEY: I told you it’d get us there! 102 00:05:53,459 --> 00:05:54,410 KATE MARTIN: We're just pulling up. 103 00:05:58,339 --> 00:05:59,690 This is a gorgeous spot. 104 00:05:59,910 --> 00:06:01,350 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah, it's beautiful, isn't it? Whiteman’s 105 00:06:01,390 --> 00:06:01,769 Wood. 106 00:06:01,779 --> 00:06:04,540 KATE MARTIN: I can see sort of woodlands around us and a field, 107 00:06:04,549 --> 00:06:05,470 in front of us. 108 00:06:05,869 --> 00:06:07,739 BEN EARDLEY: If I take you over there, I can talk through some 109 00:06:07,750 --> 00:06:10,250 of those issues that we discussed earlier on. 110 00:06:12,519 --> 00:06:14,769 KATE MARTIN: We're looking out now over the rolling green 111 00:06:14,779 --> 00:06:15,540 fields. 112 00:06:15,989 --> 00:06:17,440 BEN EARDLEY: It's a lovely landscape, but it's not a 113 00:06:17,450 --> 00:06:20,440 natural landscape. Before this was floodplain, so the water 114 00:06:20,450 --> 00:06:23,859 would move through this field. You'd have had wetland, streams 115 00:06:23,869 --> 00:06:27,790 and ponds flowing down into the main floodplain itself. What 116 00:06:27,799 --> 00:06:31,609 we've done to graze these areas is drain that catchment and you 117 00:06:31,619 --> 00:06:32,920 can hear the sound, the sort of flowing water. 118 00:06:32,929 --> 00:06:34,779 You've got that drainage ditch behind you, but that drainage 119 00:06:34,790 --> 00:06:38,369 ditch is there to drain this land so they can be managed in a 120 00:06:38,380 --> 00:06:41,750 certain way. The drawback from that is that that water just 121 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,010 moves through the landscape very, very quickly now. So 122 00:06:44,019 --> 00:06:46,820 rather than it being soaked up by the field, it just shoots 123 00:06:46,829 --> 00:06:48,880 through that drainage channel straight through the catchment 124 00:06:48,890 --> 00:06:50,089 and out into the Bristol Channel. 125 00:06:50,399 --> 00:06:52,529 KATE MARTIN: And thats all moving really quickly through 126 00:06:52,540 --> 00:06:54,829 the land? So that's when you then get those sort of flooding 127 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,024 events in the villages and people's properties. 128 00:06:57,024 --> 00:06:57,345 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah. 129 00:06:57,565 --> 00:07:00,234 KATE MARTIN: So is the flood management scheme that you're 130 00:07:00,244 --> 00:07:02,894 working on at the moment aiming to reverse management that's 131 00:07:02,904 --> 00:07:04,114 happened in the past. 132 00:07:04,125 --> 00:07:06,625 BEN EARDLEY: In certain areas. We are looking to reconnect 133 00:07:06,635 --> 00:07:09,494 those rivers and streams with the surrounding landscape. We've 134 00:07:09,505 --> 00:07:11,454 got some little engineers helping us with that at the 135 00:07:11,464 --> 00:07:14,369 moment on the project. If you come with me, I'll take you over 136 00:07:14,380 --> 00:07:17,179 to the enclosure where we're implementing a big part of our 137 00:07:17,190 --> 00:07:18,119 flood management scheme. 138 00:07:18,130 --> 00:07:18,899 KATE MARTIN: Fascinating! 139 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,489 This is quite a serious fence! 140 00:07:24,589 --> 00:07:26,260 BEN EARDLEY: It looks quite severe, but it does let the 141 00:07:26,269 --> 00:07:27,359 wildlife in and out. 142 00:07:27,670 --> 00:07:29,875 KATE MARTIN: But the workers can’t? They're locked in? 143 00:07:29,875 --> 00:07:31,220 BEN EARDLEY: No, we want them to stay on the job. 144 00:07:31,850 --> 00:07:34,290 KATE MARTIN: That's quite concerning! Oh I’m Intrigued 145 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:35,124 now, I want to see them. 146 00:07:35,124 --> 00:07:36,450 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah. Okay. Let's pop in. 147 00:07:38,429 --> 00:07:40,980 The easiest way to walk through the site is up through the 148 00:07:40,989 --> 00:07:41,950 stream itself. 149 00:07:43,619 --> 00:07:46,989 That's deeper than it looks, I think. Hang on. No, you're 150 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:47,519 alright. 151 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:48,200 KATE MARTIN: There you go. 152 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:58,230 Oh it’s Glorious. It's like Narnia. There's something 153 00:07:58,239 --> 00:07:59,779 otherworldly about this. 154 00:08:00,339 --> 00:08:02,489 BEN EARDLEY: I think it's been untouched and managed for so 155 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:03,000 long. 156 00:08:04,010 --> 00:08:05,420 KATE MARTIN: Yeah. If you suddenly came across like a 157 00:08:05,429 --> 00:08:07,230 woodland elf or a nymph, you wouldn't. Be surprised. 158 00:08:13,709 --> 00:08:15,600 BEN EARDLEY: So you can actually hear some of the work that the 159 00:08:15,609 --> 00:08:17,690 guys have been doing up here. Actually. 160 00:08:18,869 --> 00:08:20,339 KATE MARTIN: Yeah, it's definitely getting louder, isn't 161 00:08:20,350 --> 00:08:23,100 it? That water is... 162 00:08:23,100 --> 00:08:24,959 BEN EARDLEY: So that's some of the work. They've been doing. 163 00:08:25,359 --> 00:08:26,869 KATE MARTIN: A Lot of sticks. 164 00:08:26,980 --> 00:08:29,730 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah. And that's where they live over there in 165 00:08:29,739 --> 00:08:30,940 the hole in the bank. 166 00:08:31,570 --> 00:08:33,789 KATE MARTIN: I'm getting the idea these aren't people. 167 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:36,789 BEN EARDLEY: No, they aren’t people no. This is a beaver 168 00:08:36,799 --> 00:08:39,789 created dam. We've actually got beaver living and working in 169 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:40,130 here. 170 00:08:46,049 --> 00:08:49,760 CHRYSSA BROWN: Beavers were quite widespread across much of 171 00:08:49,770 --> 00:08:55,080 Europe and also in the UK during the 1600 & 1700s. They were 172 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:58,750 hunted. There were still concentrations of them in 173 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,340 Germany, France and Norway, but at their lowest we were at the 174 00:09:02,349 --> 00:09:04,270 point of almost losing them. 175 00:09:05,239 --> 00:09:09,169 My name is Chryssa Brown and I am a Ph. D. researcher looking 176 00:09:09,179 --> 00:09:13,700 at how reintroduced beavers affect rivers and streams. We've 177 00:09:13,710 --> 00:09:17,010 seen in the UK this real interest in beaver 178 00:09:17,020 --> 00:09:20,750 reintroduction and how they could assist in natural flood 179 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:21,380 management. 180 00:09:23,380 --> 00:09:28,789 As a rodent who lives in water for the majority of their life, 181 00:09:28,799 --> 00:09:32,450 they’re interested in creating and extending their territories. 182 00:09:32,780 --> 00:09:35,119 To do that, they create dams. 183 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:41,359 By doing so, this water then spreads out as soon as you're 184 00:09:41,369 --> 00:09:46,760 able to increase and extend that area of water, you attract all 185 00:09:46,770 --> 00:09:50,320 of these other species and animals that thrive on that 186 00:09:50,330 --> 00:09:56,700 environment Flies, beetles, bugs, fish, amphibians as well. 187 00:09:57,239 --> 00:10:01,049 They create life and through their modifications they 188 00:10:01,059 --> 00:10:04,760 encourage that life to continue to use that environment. 189 00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:14,250 BEN EARDLEY: So this is where they started a dam, this area. 190 00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:19,869 But you see all the boulders, stones, all the woody material, 191 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,530 all the earth, that's all material that they've moved, 192 00:10:21,630 --> 00:10:23,140 They built All that up? 193 00:10:23,140 --> 00:10:26,320 KATE MARTIN: The difference between the sort of stream and 194 00:10:26,330 --> 00:10:30,799 the top is what about four foot? five foot maybe? and how long 195 00:10:30,809 --> 00:10:32,289 has it taken them to build that? 196 00:10:32,414 --> 00:10:35,295 BEN EARDLEY: They've only done this in the last few months. 197 00:10:35,295 --> 00:10:35,465 KATE MARTIN: Really? 198 00:10:35,465 --> 00:10:38,815 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah. So it hasn't taken them very long at all. And 199 00:10:38,825 --> 00:10:40,815 you can see we’re starting to create wet woodland over there 200 00:10:40,825 --> 00:10:43,914 to the right. Before you just have one channel. Now you've got 201 00:10:44,054 --> 00:10:46,114 a variety of different water habitats. 202 00:10:46,125 --> 00:10:47,835 KATE MARTIN: That's absolutely amazing. 203 00:10:48,135 --> 00:10:49,945 BEN EARDLEY: They are incredible creatures. Yeah. I mean, if, if 204 00:10:50,195 --> 00:10:52,395 we walk around there a section, you can get a better view of 205 00:10:52,405 --> 00:10:52,955 their house. 206 00:10:54,289 --> 00:10:56,150 I think we could just track straight through this bit. 207 00:10:58,820 --> 00:11:01,539 KATE MARTIN: Just walked up through this holly bush and I'm 208 00:11:01,549 --> 00:11:04,960 stood in a pond. Around me there are trees that are now 209 00:11:04,969 --> 00:11:08,820 surrounded by water. It's so different from that kind of 210 00:11:08,830 --> 00:11:12,270 rushy tumbly stream that we've just walked past. 211 00:11:12,530 --> 00:11:14,530 BEN EARDLEY: It's not just about them engineering those water 212 00:11:14,539 --> 00:11:18,190 systems. It's as much about the effect they have on the wider 213 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:18,840 landscape. 214 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:20,830 KATE MARTIN: The beavers have done this in a relatively short 215 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,099 space of time, only a matter of months. So what are you 216 00:11:23,109 --> 00:11:25,559 expecting this area to look like in a year's time? 217 00:11:25,919 --> 00:11:28,309 BEN EARDLEY: The guys, they will take on bigger trees and they 218 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,059 will affect bigger change. There's somewhere else that I 219 00:11:31,070 --> 00:11:34,030 can take you and show you that’ll really sort of highlight 220 00:11:34,039 --> 00:11:36,520 that for you. It's a very different site to this one, but 221 00:11:36,530 --> 00:11:37,533 more exciting in some ways. 222 00:11:37,533 --> 00:11:39,130 KATE MARTIN: All right, let's go. 223 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:57,940 BEN EARDLEY: So this is Paddocks Wood, a different site to 224 00:11:57,950 --> 00:11:58,690 Whiteman’s moor. 225 00:11:58,700 --> 00:11:59,390 KATE MARTIN: Wow. 226 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:04,250 The first enclosure that we went to, they, the beavers had 227 00:12:04,260 --> 00:12:08,320 created a pool that was tens of metres squared across compared 228 00:12:08,330 --> 00:12:11,890 to where we are now. It does look like something that you 229 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:13,820 would expect to see in, like the Everglades. 230 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,690 This pool stretches hundreds of square metres pretty much as far 231 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:20,460 as I can see. 232 00:12:21,229 --> 00:12:23,820 BEN EARDLEY: This was all dry before, this woodland. This was 233 00:12:23,830 --> 00:12:27,030 just a small channel. And now essentially you've got a wetland 234 00:12:27,039 --> 00:12:30,409 and you can see, you know, more signs of them felling trees. 235 00:12:30,969 --> 00:12:34,299 It's a habitat we've lost in this country. You know, we've 236 00:12:34,309 --> 00:12:38,849 lost 90% of our wetlands since Roman times. And it's a missing 237 00:12:38,859 --> 00:12:40,804 component of the landscape and a super important one. 238 00:12:40,804 --> 00:12:48,840 KATE MARTIN: Yeah, it's amazing what relatively small animals 239 00:12:48,909 --> 00:12:51,599 can actually do, the changes they can make in their 240 00:12:51,609 --> 00:12:55,210 environment. It really is quite astounding. 241 00:12:56,210 --> 00:12:58,190 BEN EARDLEY: I can show you some more further down in the site if 242 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:07,780 you want to follow me down. Yeah, that's the original beaver 243 00:13:07,789 --> 00:13:11,039 dam in the site. So that's what's holding back all that 244 00:13:11,049 --> 00:13:11,539 water. 245 00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:13,409 KATE MARTIN: That's unbelievable. So that is a 246 00:13:13,419 --> 00:13:17,590 essentially a pile of sticks holding up a huge pond. 247 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:19,900 BEN EARDLEY: They literally constructed this over the course 248 00:13:19,909 --> 00:13:22,599 of just a few days. You know, we did a site check one week and 249 00:13:22,609 --> 00:13:26,979 the site was just a couple of spring fed streams and then came 250 00:13:26,989 --> 00:13:28,979 in the next week and did our site checks, And there was a dam 251 00:13:28,989 --> 00:13:31,530 here and a, you know, a big wetland. 252 00:13:32,109 --> 00:13:33,859 KATE MARTIN: You can obviously see the physical changes that 253 00:13:33,869 --> 00:13:37,299 have happened here obviously with the dam and the pond and 254 00:13:37,309 --> 00:13:40,789 then the stream. But what's the sort of environmental impact of 255 00:13:40,799 --> 00:13:41,210 this? 256 00:13:41,219 --> 00:13:44,190 BEN EARDLEY: When we have sort of more extreme weather, Water 257 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,859 is flowing more slowly through this environment, so that 258 00:13:46,869 --> 00:13:49,799 protects communities downstream at drier times when you've got 259 00:13:49,809 --> 00:13:52,530 hotter, drier weather and perhaps the risk of droughts, 260 00:13:52,539 --> 00:13:55,059 you've held more water in the landscape that's released more 261 00:13:55,070 --> 00:13:58,500 slowly. So you've reduced the impact of that drought on the 262 00:13:58,510 --> 00:13:59,849 local area as well. 263 00:14:00,590 --> 00:14:03,760 KATE MARTIN: Obviously introducing animals into a new 264 00:14:03,770 --> 00:14:06,659 area. And I know technically this is an area where they have 265 00:14:06,669 --> 00:14:09,659 been in the past can bring problems. So has there ever been 266 00:14:09,669 --> 00:14:12,289 anywhere where, you know, beavers have been introduced and 267 00:14:12,299 --> 00:14:14,969 it hasn't worked very well. 268 00:14:15,119 --> 00:14:17,359 BEN EARDLEY: People always talk about Tierra del Fuego, where 269 00:14:17,369 --> 00:14:19,760 they had issues on the Woodlands over there. 270 00:14:22,390 --> 00:14:24,539 ROISIN CAMPBELL PALMER: The case of beavers in Argentina is 271 00:14:24,549 --> 00:14:27,729 sometimes brought up as how destructive animals they can be. 272 00:14:28,659 --> 00:14:31,739 My name is Roisin Campbell Palmer. I’m the restoration 273 00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:35,640 manager for the Beaver Trust. The Argentinian government many 274 00:14:35,650 --> 00:14:39,159 decades ago introduced beavers as part of the fur industry. 275 00:14:39,380 --> 00:14:43,239 Quite ancient forests that had been either felled or flooded. 276 00:14:43,369 --> 00:14:46,900 People looking at it can look at quite decimated landscapes. So 277 00:14:46,909 --> 00:14:49,520 beavers in the southern hemisphere can be quite negative 278 00:14:49,530 --> 00:14:52,570 because the tree and plant species have never evolved to 279 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,460 live alongside the beaver. Where in the northern hemisphere 280 00:14:55,469 --> 00:14:58,280 obviously where we are, and where species of beavers have 281 00:14:58,289 --> 00:15:01,030 always been and evolved for many millions of years. 282 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:03,770 The plant species, they've evolved with and... you know 283 00:15:03,780 --> 00:15:07,390 water loving species when they're cut, they regenerate 284 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,710 very fast. And this is all natural evolution process to 285 00:15:10,719 --> 00:15:13,900 deal with beaver foraging. And that's why beavers in the 286 00:15:13,909 --> 00:15:16,190 northern hemisphere are actually a very good thing. 287 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:20,630 KATE MARTIN: All the stuff that we've seen so far... We can see 288 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,460 from a environmental point of view and also from a natural 289 00:15:23,469 --> 00:15:27,239 flood management point of view is is fantastic. But I know 290 00:15:27,250 --> 00:15:29,890 myself any sort of change you're trying to do, any sort of 291 00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:32,159 environment for what you're trying to do. There are always 292 00:15:32,169 --> 00:15:35,700 people who are less keen. Have you had a lot of sort of 293 00:15:35,710 --> 00:15:36,299 complaints? 294 00:15:36,489 --> 00:15:38,440 BEN EARDLEY: I'm of the firm opinion that they're easily 295 00:15:38,450 --> 00:15:42,098 managed. It just needs to be a common sense approach. So if a 296 00:15:42,098 --> 00:15:45,155 farmer has land and beaver move in and start building dams, he 297 00:15:45,164 --> 00:15:47,244 knows who to call to come and sort that problem out. 298 00:15:47,255 --> 00:15:49,804 You can put in things called beaver deceivers or you can 299 00:15:49,815 --> 00:15:52,895 relocate the beaver to somewhere else in that catchment. So it 300 00:15:52,905 --> 00:15:56,505 just needs to be sensible and thought through. And I think the 301 00:15:56,515 --> 00:16:01,364 positives far outweigh any of the inconvenience we have to 302 00:16:01,375 --> 00:16:04,434 accept for that species being in the wider landscape. 303 00:16:04,809 --> 00:16:06,630 KATE MARTIN: It's interesting. I think most people would probably 304 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,809 think of beavers as kind of wild animals that we don't really 305 00:16:09,820 --> 00:16:12,760 have any sort of control over. But here, I mean essentially 306 00:16:12,830 --> 00:16:15,669 they're a working animal. I mean, I know they're not quite 307 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:19,200 the same as a sort of a sheep dog or- oh, you know, cattle or 308 00:16:19,210 --> 00:16:19,630 sheep. 309 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,315 But they are still an animal that we're put into use to to do 310 00:16:23,325 --> 00:16:26,775 something we want. So do you still see them a little bit as a 311 00:16:26,784 --> 00:16:29,844 sort of more of a human connection than you would do? 312 00:16:29,854 --> 00:16:31,585 They have sort of personalities. 313 00:16:31,724 --> 00:16:33,135 BEN EARDLEY: The animals themselves. They've certainly 314 00:16:33,145 --> 00:16:35,775 got personalities. And one animal in particular, we sort of 315 00:16:35,784 --> 00:16:38,625 nicknamed her Grylls, she had sort of quite a hard start in 316 00:16:38,635 --> 00:16:48,369 life. Grylls introduced with her mum beavers cachet food in the 317 00:16:48,380 --> 00:16:51,309 falls in ponds to feed on it during the winter when times are 318 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,369 tough and construct dams. 319 00:16:55,369 --> 00:16:57,890 They’re big animals, when they're fully grown well over 30 320 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:00,659 kilos, some of the bits of wood that they move will be a 321 00:17:00,669 --> 00:17:03,510 significant branch for me to pick up. But obviously Grylls 322 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,000 wasn't at that stage. She was two or three months old, you 323 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:08,020 know, a few KGs. 324 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,869 She wasn't going to be carrying out any great feats of 325 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,530 engineering. They pick up a lot of the behaviours that they need 326 00:17:14,540 --> 00:17:18,270 to survive from other family members. But things didn't work 327 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,150 out like that for Grylls. 328 00:17:22,050 --> 00:17:27,630 Unfortunately, her mum passed away within a few weeks of being 329 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,650 introduced to the site. People didn't give Grylls much chance 330 00:17:31,660 --> 00:17:33,510 of surviving the rest of the winter. 331 00:17:37,849 --> 00:17:40,180 Beavers themselves have got no natural predators anymore in 332 00:17:40,189 --> 00:17:43,514 this country, but young Beaver will still be taken by Fox. We 333 00:17:43,514 --> 00:17:47,089 know there are Fox around and about in that habitat and Grylls 334 00:17:47,099 --> 00:17:52,069 was small, so the fear was that she would be eaten by Fox or 335 00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:55,229 that she was simply too small to survive. The harsh weather 336 00:17:55,239 --> 00:17:58,709 conditions in the winter. We spent a lot of time putting 337 00:17:58,719 --> 00:18:02,349 vegetables and fruit into the site to keep her going. 338 00:18:03,609 --> 00:18:06,349 We were just checking the camera traps, checking the site 339 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,640 regularly, fully expecting to find her having passed away. We 340 00:18:10,650 --> 00:18:11,910 were just on tenterhooks. 341 00:18:16,270 --> 00:18:19,650 We've got several camera traps in the site to check on the 342 00:18:19,660 --> 00:18:23,189 beaver. We have to go out to the camera traps, download the 343 00:18:23,199 --> 00:18:26,020 footage from an SD card, take it back to the office and check. We 344 00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:28,790 all sort of hunk around the laptop. When we downloaded the 345 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,270 footage from the enclosure that Grylls is in. We saw something 346 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:32,319 that surprised us all. 347 00:18:33,849 --> 00:18:37,310 We saw footage of Grylls trying to construct her own little dam. 348 00:18:37,479 --> 00:18:40,900 You know, you'd be stretching it to call them dams. They were 349 00:18:40,910 --> 00:18:43,890 sort of gatherings of twigs and branches, but it was good just 350 00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:47,000 to know that she was trying her best. She had us in fits of 351 00:18:47,010 --> 00:18:50,180 giggles a few times. She was always trying to carry sticks 352 00:18:50,189 --> 00:18:51,939 and branches that were too big for her. 353 00:18:52,229 --> 00:18:55,579 She used to funny little dances and things. She tried to hold 354 00:18:55,589 --> 00:18:58,109 like two or three parsnips in her mouth at once as well as a 355 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,140 branch, and went nose to nose with the fox on the trail cam. 356 00:19:01,150 --> 00:19:04,959 That was quite funny as time went on and she survived sort of 357 00:19:04,969 --> 00:19:05,810 week after week. 358 00:19:05,819 --> 00:19:08,579 And then, you know, more signs of feeding, more signs of other 359 00:19:08,589 --> 00:19:11,900 beaver behaviour, more signs of her looking sort of healthy and 360 00:19:11,910 --> 00:19:15,729 okay on the camera traps. That's why she's called Grylls. It's a 361 00:19:15,739 --> 00:19:18,520 bit of a funny take on Bear Grylls and Born Survivor, but 362 00:19:18,530 --> 00:19:21,859 it's because nobody really gave her a chance. And to everyone's 363 00:19:21,869 --> 00:19:23,510 surprise, she pulled through. 364 00:19:30,589 --> 00:19:33,959 She's the beaver in here now with the male yogi, and they're 365 00:19:33,969 --> 00:19:34,660 doing really well. 366 00:19:34,829 --> 00:19:37,839 KATE MARTIN: Now I do realize they are wild animals is never a 367 00:19:37,849 --> 00:19:41,819 guarantee. But do you think there's any chance we might see 368 00:19:41,829 --> 00:19:41,989 one? 369 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,829 BEN EARDLEY: Well, we can potter along to the lodge. And I've got 370 00:19:44,849 --> 00:19:47,670 a thermal imaging camera. That's a good way. If they are out and 371 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:48,609 about to spot them. 372 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:54,829 Right. We're going to walk sort of across the back here and then 373 00:19:54,839 --> 00:19:58,959 along that bank and their lodges at the end. So if we're quiet as 374 00:19:58,969 --> 00:20:00,609 we walk along that we've got more chance. 375 00:20:04,650 --> 00:20:07,180 I'm just going to show you how to use this before we get down 376 00:20:07,189 --> 00:20:10,640 there. So anything bright white is hot. 377 00:20:10,910 --> 00:20:13,650 KATE MARTIN: Okay. Okay. I’ll keep quiet. 378 00:20:16,699 --> 00:20:18,739 BEN EARDLEY: That’s their lodge over there. 379 00:20:18,750 --> 00:20:19,660 KATE MARTIN: Wow that amazing. 380 00:20:22,890 --> 00:20:25,040 BEN EARDLEY: See, You can see just. All that jumble of wood 381 00:20:25,050 --> 00:20:25,550 and stuff. That's their lodge. 382 00:20:27,329 --> 00:20:35,504 So you can see the slides how they get in and there’s a hole 383 00:20:35,504 --> 00:20:35,726 over there. And there’s a... 384 00:20:35,726 --> 00:20:36,053 KATE MARTIN: Is that a fallen tree? 385 00:20:36,053 --> 00:20:36,187 BEN EARDLEY: Yeah a really great pine and they can run out and 386 00:20:36,187 --> 00:20:38,930 they can access underneath the water, out into the pond the 387 00:20:38,939 --> 00:20:45,489 other side as well. 388 00:20:50,510 --> 00:20:52,229 KATE MARTIN: It's a shame we haven't seen them. It's a little 389 00:20:52,239 --> 00:20:54,390 bit early. They're still having a good kip. 390 00:20:54,479 --> 00:20:56,550 BEN EARDLEY: They’re like students. They like to sleep 391 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:57,250 through the day. 392 00:20:57,579 --> 00:20:57,964 KATE MARTIN: Nothing wrong with that! 393 00:20:57,964 --> 00:20:57,979 BEN EARDLEY: No! 394 00:20:59,089 --> 00:21:01,400 KATE MARTIN: So what's the future do you think for them 395 00:21:01,530 --> 00:21:01,599 here? 396 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,810 BEN EARDLEY: We haven't really seen Grylls very much, so we 397 00:21:03,819 --> 00:21:06,410 think it's probably pretty likely that she's pregnant. 398 00:21:06,839 --> 00:21:10,040 They'll probably have kits in the next few weeks. They'll 399 00:21:10,050 --> 00:21:13,089 probably get even busier with the work that they do once 400 00:21:13,099 --> 00:21:15,839 they've got sort of a family, as in, you know, male, female and 401 00:21:15,849 --> 00:21:18,880 kits that tends to kick start another round of sort of 402 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:20,209 ecosystem engineering. 403 00:21:20,219 --> 00:21:24,150 So and it'll be interesting to see how that develops. But yeah, 404 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,189 my hope is that in 2 to 3 years that we're in a situation 405 00:21:27,199 --> 00:21:30,839 whereby, you know, beaver, a more commonplace species that we 406 00:21:30,849 --> 00:21:32,925 see in, in our rivers and streams. 407 00:21:32,925 --> 00:21:34,229 KATE MARTIN: That’ll be good wouldn‘t it. 408 00:21:40,020 --> 00:21:46,250 I’m just leaving the beaver enclosure behind me now. And I 409 00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:51,420 have to say I have had a really eye opening day when I first 410 00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:54,180 stepped out of the door this morning, I thought I was going 411 00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:57,810 to see some new amazing technology. It's been 400 years 412 00:21:57,819 --> 00:22:01,040 since beavers have been hunted to extinction, and it's really 413 00:22:01,050 --> 00:22:02,150 nice to see them back. 414 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,689 Now in the UK landscape, obviously they're not the only 415 00:22:06,699 --> 00:22:10,400 solution to flood management, but they are part of a suite of 416 00:22:10,410 --> 00:22:14,010 things that we can look at to sort of use nature, work with 417 00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:17,790 nature to improve not just habitats but also improve 418 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:18,800 people's lives. 419 00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:34,910 Thanks for listening to this episode of the National Trust 420 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,989 Podcast. If you'd like to learn more about Beaver introduction 421 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:44,569 at the National Trust, go to nationaltrust.org.uk/NTP96 as a 422 00:22:44,579 --> 00:22:47,829 National Trust podcast Episode 96. 423 00:22:48,260 --> 00:22:51,400 If you've enjoyed this episode, remember the National Trust has 424 00:22:51,410 --> 00:22:54,420 a huge resource of audio programmes which you can find at 425 00:22:54,430 --> 00:22:59,790 nationaltrust.org.uk/podcasts to make sure you get new episodes 426 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,650 of this podcast, follow or subscribe on Spotify, Google 427 00:23:03,660 --> 00:23:05,660 Podcasts or Apple Podcasts. 428 00:23:05,989 --> 00:23:08,959 And while you’re there, do leave us a review to let us know what 429 00:23:08,969 --> 00:23:12,569 you think of the show. We'll be back soon with a new episode. 430 00:23:12,579 --> 00:23:15,569 But for now from me, Kate Martin, Goodbye.