INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast, where we share learning and expertise in child protection from inside and outside of the
INTRODUCTION: organisation, we aim to create debate, encourage, reflection and share good
INTRODUCTION: practice on how we can all work together to keep babies, children and young people safe.
ALI: Hi, and thanks for listening to the latest NSPCC Learning podcast. In this episode, we talk to
ALI: Jahnine Davis and Nick Marsh, founders of Listen Up, an organisation that engages
ALI: professionals to critically reflect on approaches to safeguarding children and young people.
ALI: - and you'll find links to Listen Up on this podcast's webpage. The conversation with Jahnine and Nick was recorded
ALI: in May 2021 and focuses on intersectionality, which underpins all of Listen Up's
ALI: work. Intersectionality is vital for professionals who work with children and young people
ALI: to know about, understand and apply in practice. Jahnine and Nick sat down with Ineke Houtenbos, a senior consultant with the NSPCC, where they
ALI: discuss what intersectionality is, its origins and its importance in safeguarding and protecting children and young people.
INEKE: Hi, so we're sitting here with Jahnine and Nick
INEKE: from Listen Up, and today we are going to
INEKE: be talking about intersectionality.
INEKE: And the question that we really want to cover today
INEKE: is: what is intersectionality and how
INEKE: does it impact on children and young people,
INEKE: especially when it comes to safeguarding and child
INEKE: protection? There's a lot for us to cover today.
INEKE: So who wants to start?
INEKE: What do we actually mean when we talk about
INEKE: intersectionality? What does that mean to us?
JAHNINE: Intersectionality means, ultimately,
JAHNINE: how we are positioned within
JAHNINE: society, within the world.
JAHNINE: It allows us to explore all of the different
JAHNINE: elements which make up our identities.
JAHNINE: So that includes our race, ethnicity, our
JAHNINE: gender, sexuality, our age - all
JAHNINE: of these areas - our locations, where we live.
JAHNINE: So intersectionality is around how
JAHNINE: our intersecting identities collide,
JAHNINE: how they intersect, how they come together so that
JAHNINE: we're not just taking universal approaches or
JAHNINE: perspectives to understand experiences,
JAHNINE: but instead we're looking at how me,
JAHNINE: for example, how my intersections as a black
JAHNINE: working class woman, how I'm not just going to
JAHNINE: experience racism over there, or sexism
JAHNINE: over there, or classism over there, but actually
JAHNINE: all of those experiences are experienced
JAHNINE: simultaneously.
SPEAKER: So intersectionality really allows professionals to
SPEAKER: just be that bit more curious to ensure we aren't
SPEAKER: just taking a one-size-fits-all approach, but
SPEAKER: instead we're really looking at those various
SPEAKER: different dynamics which make up who we are.
NICK: There's a quote by Audre Lorde that I really like when
NICK: I think about intersectionality - and I might not get
NICK: the whole quote right off the top of my head - but
NICK: she talks about, without intersectionality, we're
NICK: being encouraged to just pluck out one aspect of our
NICK: character and seeing this as a meaningful whole,
NICK: as opposed to our complete experiences of who we
NICK: are. Actually, without this, we might take a mono-lens
NICK: and just see a person as a male, a female,
NICK: as part of the LGBTQ+ community, a Black
NICK: person, an Asian person, rather than seeing how all
NICK: these interact and compound one another.
INEKE: Absolutely, because I think the concept gives us the
INEKE: opportunity to really look
INEKE: at a person's lived experience without putting them
INEKE: into boxes. Because that can be very easy sometimes.
INEKE: And I think especially when we're talking about
INEKE: working with people, whether they be young people or
INEKE: adults, we often want that tick box of, 'where
INEKE: do they fit?'. But this concept has
INEKE: the power to encourage
INEKE: us to think about people as more than that.
INEKE: Because there's so much more to all of our lived
INEKE: experiences. And this concept really gives us an
INEKE: opportunity to talk about it from that point of view.
JAHNINE: Definitely. Especially when
JAHNINE: we think about child protection and safeguarding
JAHNINE: because intersectionality isn't new.
JAHNINE: And I think that's something Nick and I always
JAHNINE: encourage professional services to really
JAHNINE: ensure they don't erase the origin
JAHNINE: and the history of intersectionality. Because
JAHNINE: intersectionality really was founded within black
JAHNINE: feminist activism.
JAHNINE: That's when we see intersectionality really taking
JAHNINE: hold to challenge the kind of status quo, the
JAHNINE: universal assumptions around what
JAHNINE: feminist activism was - that actually didn't
JAHNINE: acknowledge, or always consider, those various
JAHNINE: different challenges, experiences, that Black and
JAHNINE: minoritised women and girls encountered.
SPEAKER: So when we think about intersectionality, we
SPEAKER: can't think about intersectionality without talking
SPEAKER: about Black feminist activism.
SPEAKER: And the reason why that's so important is because
SPEAKER: intersectionality allows us to explore
SPEAKER: how black women and girls experiences
SPEAKER: of gendered violence have positioned
SPEAKER: them in ways where sometimes those experiences
SPEAKER: haven't always been acknowledged. They haven't
SPEAKER: always been amplified.
SPEAKER: As intersectionality has developed over the years -
SPEAKER: we have Kimberley Crenshaw in the late 80s, early
SPEAKER: 90s from her work, 'Mapping the Margins', talking
SPEAKER: about intersectionality, actually coining the term
SPEAKER: intersectionality as a theory, not just as
SPEAKER: a concept, has been instrumental
SPEAKER: in Black feminist activism years
SPEAKER: prior. So I think what we're now seeing,
SPEAKER: which is really exciting, is how intersectionality
SPEAKER: is starting to take form in safeguarding
SPEAKER: practice. And I think that's something which is new
SPEAKER: because, as I said, in the VAWG sector - violence
SPEAKER: against women and girls - it's something we've been
SPEAKER: seeing and knowing for years.
SPEAKER: What we're now seeing is how it's now being lifted
SPEAKER: up in safeguarding.
NICK: When we think about safeguarding - I'm social worker
NICK: and I reflect back on my social work training,
NICK: my social work degree and even my practice, we're
NICK: often encouraged to see
NICK: young people through a snapshot.
NICK: So when we think of an assessment, it's only ever a
NICK: snapshot of a young person's life.
NICK: But what this can do is pluck them from their
NICK: social experiences, pluck them from their identity.
NICK: And we might see - just
NICK: thinking about age, for example, adolescent
NICK: development - not every young person
NICK: fits neatly into our psycho-social
NICK: theories around adolescent development.
NICK: We often see adolescent development as, 'oh, they're
NICK: ten-years-old they're now entering adolescence',
NICK: rather than thinking, 'who is the young person?
NICK: What are their experiences?
NICK: What are their family's experiences -
NICK: inter-generationally and contemporary?' and thinking
NICK: that adolescent development doesn't start at ten, it
NICK: actually is, who the family are, it's their
NICK: experiences - any migration patterns, their
NICK: ethnicity, class, gender, etc.
NICK: So adolescent development starts way before the young
NICK: person is even born. So I think we need to start to
NICK: really critique our understanding and our assessments
NICK: by thinking more systemically, and intersectionality
NICK: is part of that.
INEKE: Absolutely. And I think it's really important that we
INEKE: recognise that we already have that language
INEKE: in social work practice.
INEKE: Because we very often talk about capturing the
INEKE: child's views.
INEKE: But that's very different for a child to articulate.
INEKE: And always recognising, too, that whenever we
INEKE: are in that interaction with a child,
INEKE: there is a level of power
INEKE: dynamic at play.
INEKE: And children are very good sometimes at
INEKE: knowing how to act in certain situations.
INEKE: So we as professionals have to ask
INEKE: those questions. We have to ask those difficult
INEKE: questions of, 'what is life like for you?
INEKE: What does that mean for you?
INEKE: What does that look like?'.
INEKE: Because if we're not, how are we ever going to
INEKE: capture their views if we don't understand where
INEKE: they're coming from?
JAHNINE: And I think the point you raise comes up quite a
JAHNINE: lot in terms of those difficult questions.
JAHNINE: And something I always invite professionals to
JAHNINE: consider is, who is it difficult for?
JAHNINE: Because actually these are experiences, I think,
JAHNINE: how if we're not used to normalising those
JAHNINE: discussions and we're not used to as professionals
JAHNINE: having coversations about identity, about bias,
JAHNINE: about discrimination, they're difficult for us,
JAHNINE: they're not difficult for that young person.
JAHNINE: They have been navigating those experiences
JAHNINE: throughout their life course.
JAHNINE: I think it's more about, as professionals, how can
JAHNINE: we hold space to ensure that these conversations
JAHNINE: don't only come up when we have somebody from
JAHNINE: a minoritised or marginalised background.
JAHNINE: So I think instead it's about, how can we ensure
JAHNINE: that these are just a part of our day today?
INEKE: Absolutely. That that's kind of just a normal part of
INEKE: being able to explore those experiences
INEKE: with young people.
INEKE: And sometimes that does mean that no matter how
INEKE: experienced you are as a social worker, that you need
INEKE: to go back and check yourself and kind of go, 'what
INEKE: questions do I need to be asking?
INEKE: And if I'm not asking them, why?'
NICK: And also it's not just about
NICK: questions.
NICK: Jahnine and myself were providing training recently
NICK: and some of the conversations
NICK: centred around; a white professional said, 'sometimes
NICK: as a white professional, when I raise issues around
NICK: racism, homophobia, sexism,
NICK: I feel like I'm making an issue and the young person
NICK: might not have experienced that.' But I think
NICK: we have to not place as much onus
NICK: on the young person being able to articulate what
NICK: systemic racism or systemic social inequality
NICK: feels like. I know as a LGBT
NICK: young person, I didn't necessarily know
NICK: what homophobia was, or what I was experiencing
NICK: might have been homophobic. I, as a child, and
NICK: understanding child development, we know that we
NICK: internalise these feelings, 'oh, it's me, it is
NICK: how I feel about myself. I must be not as good as
NICK: etc.' So we can't always just rely on a young person
NICK: being able to articulate or pinpoint their
NICK: experiences. We have to also use our
NICK: understanding of how the world functions and
NICK: acknowledge that racism and social inequality, exists,
NICK: sexism exists, and apply that to our assessments as
NICK: well.
INEKE: And ableism as well.
INEKE: You know, from all these different points of view
INEKE: that we're knowledgeable enough
INEKE: ourselves to have those conversations effectively
INEKE: with young people in a safe way.
INEKE: But that's I think, again, is the only way that we're
INEKE: ever going to really get their views and their voice
INEKE: heard. And we know that from serious case reviews,
INEKE: going back to Victoria Climbie, when
INEKE: we're talking about what was that child going
INEKE: through? Do we really understand that?
INEKE: Who asked? Who stopped to ask, 'what
INEKE: is life like for you?'.
INEKE: And I think it's very easy sometimes to get caught up
INEKE: in the process, and forget that
INEKE: there is a child with lived experience that really
INEKE: matters. That really matters for us to be able to
INEKE: effectively engage with them and effectively affect
INEKE: change in their life, we need to understand who they
INEKE: are.
JAHNINE: I agree. And I think in order to do that we have to
JAHNINE: be brave to know that, as professionals, we don't
JAHNINE: know everything. And there are some times we're
JAHNINE: going to make mistakes. And I think we have to
JAHNINE: acknowledge, unfortunately, that sometimes due to
JAHNINE: this kind of blame, this culture of blame, it can
JAHNINE: make professionals quite... it's quite difficult to
JAHNINE: say, 'well, actually, I don't know' or 'I can't be
JAHNINE: knowledgeable on every single thing related to
JAHNINE: equity, diversity and inclusion', for example.
JAHNINE: No, no, you can't. What you can do is be brave to
JAHNINE: acknowledge what those gaps are so then you know
JAHNINE: what support you might need to continue developing
JAHNINE: your learning.
SPEAKER: When we think about work with young people, I think
SPEAKER: we focus so much on
SPEAKER: the young person, their identity, their
SPEAKER: positionality, but we also need to be able to
SPEAKER: acknowledge our own, that there were various
SPEAKER: different experiences in that space which are
SPEAKER: intersecting and coming out and playing out in
SPEAKER: various different ways. And as professionals, we
SPEAKER: have our own intersecting identities, too, as Nick
SPEAKER: was just sharing.
SPEAKER: So I think, when we think about intersectionality,
SPEAKER: the word itself can feel really quite long and
SPEAKER: complex. It really is not. We're talking about
SPEAKER: identity. We're inviting you as professionals, as
SPEAKER: services to consider identity on a micro
SPEAKER: like level in terms of with family, how
SPEAKER: identity interacts within your familial context,
SPEAKER: within your neighbourhoods, but also what that then
SPEAKER: means from a macro level in terms of looking at
SPEAKER: those wider, different elements of structural
SPEAKER: and systemic inequalities and how they
SPEAKER: operationalise.
SPEAKER: There was a point you raised around assessments and
SPEAKER: the different challenges with assessments, I would
SPEAKER: say that one of the challenges is that they're
SPEAKER: still quite universal. That they focus on universal
SPEAKER: experiences based on a dominant group
SPEAKER: of young people we might research; based on what
SPEAKER: research is saying, so that what we don't
SPEAKER: necessarily have are assessments which allow
SPEAKER: for that intersectional experience.
SPEAKER: And that's why it's even more important for
SPEAKER: professionals to use their professional curiosity
SPEAKER: to apply that to their learning, to ensure we are
SPEAKER: thinking about those different identities and we're
SPEAKER: not just saying what we've done, this assessment,
SPEAKER: this is what it is. And then we've ticked this box
SPEAKER: and that's it. How do we ensure that we apply that
SPEAKER: intersectional understanding to
SPEAKER: everything that we do?
NICK: We have to think about what underpins the assessment
NICK: framework on our contemporary application of that,
NICK: and also what underpins social work.
NICK: If we think about the theories, social
NICK: work learning models and social work theories, we
NICK: have to think of Bowlby attachment theory, Erik
NICK: Erickson life-cycle, Bronfenbrenner systems
NICK: theory and ecological theory - and although his work,
NICK: especially in the later years, did pick
NICK: up people's bio-ecological elements, when we
NICK: think of systems, they're are actually very
NICK: heteronormative, Eurocentric and ableist.
NICK: So instantly our training as a social worker,
NICK: we have to then apply a critical lens
NICK: to what we're doing and how our training has been
NICK: embedded upon us and within us,
NICK: and how we view young people, how we view child
NICK: development, how we view healthy relationships, how we
NICK: view independence, what independence
NICK: looks like, how we view risk-taking and think about
NICK: all of our theories push us down one
NICK: avenue and then being able to have spaces to
NICK: critically reflect on that and what that means and how
NICK: that influences our policies, our interventions,
NICK: our practises, and how gendered they can be, how
NICK: Eurocentric they can be, and all the other elements of
NICK: intersectionality. I think what further can compound
NICK: that is, who are our team?
NICK: Who are the decision makers?
NICK: Where's diversity within team?
NICK: Is it front-facing? It is right through to senior
NICK: leadership? Is it male and female?
NICK: Who are creating and designing our
NICK: interventions? And what does this mean when we then
NICK: apply them to young people?
INEKE: Absolutely. And I think, too, about the concept of
INEKE: being evidence-based.
INEKE: You know, a lot of organisations talk about being
INEKE: evidence-based, a lot of the systems that
INEKE: we use, as you say, evidence-based.
INEKE: And yet we don't necessarily take that time always to
INEKE: critically reflect on who was
INEKE: represented in that evidence and who did we speak to,
INEKE: which voices are being heard on the basis of that
INEKE: evidence. And the work that you've done, Jahnine,
INEKE: around giving black girls a voice in CSA
INEKE: research is so important because I don't even think
INEKE: that people recognise that, or
INEKE: ask that question, we just kind of see
INEKE: evidence-based, peer-reviewed, wonderful, let's go.
INEKE: And we're not stopping to go, 'actually who was
INEKE: researched here?'. Because that matters.
INEKE: Especially when we're talking about all those
INEKE: universal services and all the universal ways that we
INEKE: try to roll out what we do.
INEKE: It's just not always going to reach those
INEKE: communities. And that's my pet peeve about that
INEKE: word of, 'hard to reach'.
INEKE: Communities aren't hard to reach.
INEKE: They're right there.
INEKE: They're right there. It's incumbent upon us, as
INEKE: organisations and professionals, to know enough.
INEKE: To have appropriate conversations.
INEKE: To educate ourselves on all those aspects of
INEKE: intersectionality so that we can go into those
INEKE: communities and have an intelligent
INEKE: conversation about what might be going on for those
INEKE: people.
INEKE: Language is so important because language in itself
INEKE: can really place a barrier.
INEKE: And from our own learning, if we continue to use
INEKE: language such as, 'disengaged', 'not engaged',
INEKE: 'hard to reach', when actually, I think part
INEKE: of that difficult question we were talking about
INEKE: earlier, I think the difficult question is, as
INEKE: professionals, as services, asking ourselves,
INEKE: actually, are our services hard to reach?
INEKE: And how often do we look at our services, rather than
INEKE: placing the onus and responsibility of traditionally
INEKE: marginalised, minoritised communities
INEKE: to, 'why are you not coming in?' Or 'what work
INEKE: do we need to do?'. There is something about
INEKE: constantly questioning, reflecting and thinking about
INEKE: how our services are reachable.
INEKE: And if they're not, what work do we need to do?
INEKE: Who are our critical friends?
INEKE: How evolved our we in working in partnership with
INEKE: specialist organisations?
INEKE: I think there is something about having to take that
INEKE: additional time to ensure that we are being
INEKE: inclusive and equitable.
INEKE: That it can't just be that universal approach
INEKE: or assumption that by having somebody with a
INEKE: diverse workforce means we've ticked the box.
INEKE: No, it doesn't. Because if that diversity, that
INEKE: visible diversity, is not something we're seeing
INEKE: reflected within middle management, within senior
INEKE: leadership, within the board, then again, we're still
INEKE: perpetuating and mimicking the social inequalities
INEKE: we see happening externally.
SPEAKER: So I think it's not just the outside work
SPEAKER: in terms of how we work with various different
SPEAKER: young people, especially when professionals working
SPEAKER: with young people from different backgrounds to
SPEAKER: themselves, it's also thinking about what can we be
SPEAKER: doing within our services to really strengthen our
SPEAKER: approaches, to ensure that when we talk about
SPEAKER: intersectionality, we are talking about equity, we
SPEAKER: are talking about diversity and inclusion.
SPEAKER: So how does that become just embedded across all
SPEAKER: layers, not just on the ground where we tend
SPEAKER: to see much more diversity
SPEAKER: playing out?
NICK: What this says to me, Jahnine, just thinking about
NICK: this conversation is, we have to commit
NICK: serious resources to this.
NICK: It can't be at the end of the financial year you have
NICK: ten thousand pounds left over, so let's get some EDI
NICK: (equality, diversion and inclusion) training. It has
NICK: to be integral to everything that we do.
NICK: We have to have spaces systemically
NICK: from recruitment, retention,
NICK: reward, recognition, critiquing
NICK: our assessments and our tools, our policies, looking
NICK: through our practices, holding space,
NICK: having uncomfortable conversations around
NICK: intersectional experiences.
NICK: It has to be a real and permanent commitment
NICK: to this area of practice.
NICK: To just have it as piecemeal, or something that's nice
NICK: to do, is really providing a disservice
NICK: to young people and our families that are from
NICK: minoritised and marginalised groups.
JAHNINE: For sure. When
JAHNINE: we think about intersectionality, it shouldn't just
JAHNINE: be wrapped up as this
JAHNINE: area of, 'oh gosh, you know, it's going to be
JAHNINE: challenging or complex'.
JAHNINE: It's actually an opportunity to just celebrate
JAHNINE: difference. To celebrate diversity.
JAHNINE: We're all different. Obviously, those who
JAHNINE: are listening can't see, but I'm just looking at
JAHNINE: Nick, Ineke, Ali, me, and
JAHNINE: we all are from different backgrounds, walks of
JAHNINE: life, some of that's visible, some of it is not,
JAHNINE: and why are we not celebrating that?
JAHNINE: Why is it sometimes so difficult just to talk about
JAHNINE: identity as something rich and vibrant?
JAHNINE: Something which we should all be very proud of.
SPEAKER: And when we think about the work we, if we're
SPEAKER: thinking about it being person-centred,
SPEAKER: strengths-based and so forth, why are we not
SPEAKER: thinking about having those questions within
SPEAKER: our sessions? Within those one-to-one spaces with
SPEAKER: young people? Because it's not just about
SPEAKER: acknowledging and exploring the possible various
SPEAKER: different oppressions they may have experienced -
SPEAKER: or maybe at a heightened risk of experiencing.
SPEAKER: It's also an opportunity for professionals,
SPEAKER: especially where you may not be used to working
SPEAKER: with young people who differ from you in terms of
SPEAKER: your backgrounds, it's an opportunity just to hear
SPEAKER: and learn and share.
SPEAKER: So I think intersectionality, again, allows
SPEAKER: you to just explore and to go that bit further; to
SPEAKER: look beyond the universal lens; to think about that
SPEAKER: kind of kaleidoscopic lens.
SPEAKER: So you're not just having this one-size-fits-all,
SPEAKER: but actually an opportunity to just explore your
SPEAKER: various differences.
SPEAKER: And I think that's something we should celebrate.
NICK: Intersectionality isn't just something we apply to
NICK: others. It applies to ourselves.
NICK: It applies to our colleagues.
NICK: Our peers. Our senior leaders.
NICK: Understanding how all of us have intersectional
NICK: experiences. We're all positioned differently in the
NICK: world and experience the world differently.
NICK: And that changes over time, on resources,
NICK: on climate.
NICK: So our experiences aren't static either.
NICK: So it's really acknowledging that intersectionality
NICK: has a fluidity to it as well.
JAHNINE: Some of the questions we don't always ask
JAHNINE: ourselves, or the reflections for me, should be
JAHNINE: around, actually, what have we missed?
JAHNINE: Because if we're not taking an intersectional
JAHNINE: approach to our work, what does that mean?
JAHNINE: What's the impact of that?
JAHNINE: We focus so much on the good
JAHNINE: intention of everything that we do, or not wanting
JAHNINE: to get it wrong, or being really concerned about
JAHNINE: saying the wrong thing and language - and yes,
JAHNINE: let's acknowledge that, let's acknowledge and
JAHNINE: support professionals to hold
JAHNINE: space where they can feel bold and courageous to
JAHNINE: say, 'do you know what, I'm worried about saying
JAHNINE: this word because am I going to be accused of this?
JAHNINE: I don't know what if I say this? Is this wrong?'
JAHNINE: OK, let's have that conversation - but let that not
JAHNINE: overtake the focus and the importance of
JAHNINE: acknowledging impact.
SPEAKER: Now, when we focus on impact, let's think about if
SPEAKER: we do not take intersectional approaches to the
SPEAKER: work we do, what is the impact?
SPEAKER: What does that mean? Picking up on your point Ineke
SPEAKER: around my work around Black girls and child sexual
SPEAKER: abuse, something which always
SPEAKER: stands out for me is that one of the participants
SPEAKER: said, 'well, who's protecting us?
SPEAKER: Who is protecting us?'.
SPEAKER: And that impact, that feeling of, no one is seeing
SPEAKER: us. No one's seeing our experiences.
SPEAKER: Because services continue
SPEAKER: to provide this universal approach or services,
SPEAKER: because of the lack of development or
SPEAKER: opportunities that professionals have to ignore and
SPEAKER: explore their bias, they're just seeing us as being
SPEAKER: angry and aggressive. They're not
SPEAKER: seeing our innocence, our vulnerability. No one is
SPEAKER: seeing that. So if we do not take intersectional
SPEAKER: approaches to our work, we need to be talking.
SPEAKER: We need to be holding ourselves accountable to say,
SPEAKER: well, what does that mean then in terms of the
SPEAKER: impact? Does that mean that we have young people,
SPEAKER: children and young people's experiences, being
SPEAKER: disregarded, dismissed, erased?
SPEAKER: Because that is the impact.
SPEAKER: So we can talk about intersectionality in terms of
SPEAKER: why it's important or buy in.
SPEAKER: But we also need to talk about when we don't
SPEAKER: buy into it, what does that mean to the children
SPEAKER: and young people we're supposed to be safeguarding?
INEKE: Exacly. And it's about what Nick was saying earlier,
INEKE: it's not incumbent on them to explain
INEKE: that to us. Because a lot of the kids that we're
INEKE: working with, in terms of safeguarding, are surviving
INEKE: as best as they can.
INEKE: So it's our job
INEKE: to give them that voice.
INEKE: I think that's the only way that we're able to build
INEKE: that trust. Because in terms of
INEKE: systemic oppression that's been happening over years
INEKE: and years and years and the statistics from
INEKE: government websites will show you in terms of, you
INEKE: know, incarceration and the school to prison
INEKE: pipeline and all that stuff has been
INEKE: around. Kids know this.
INEKE: They know this. That's the life that they're living.
INEKE: So it's up to us to break down those barriers that
INEKE: they've had to create for themselves in order to
INEKE: survive.
NICK: I really like the point you made there.
NICK: It really resonates with me, 'the school to prison
NICK: pipeline'. And I think if we had a more intersectional
NICK: approach to how we understand trauma,
NICK: how young people might manifest their distress,
NICK: and we actually started to think around
NICK: tropes and some of the categories that we apply
NICK: to some young people and how it can include and
NICK: exclude in people. If we think of trauma responses
NICK: around boundaries,
NICK: emotional regulation, aggression,
NICK: daydreaming or disassociation, and we think
NICK: about how we might apply innocence
NICK: or vulnerability to some groups of young people and
NICK: not others, and what we can see in our alternative
NICK: education provisions, are often
NICK: whole groups of people, often males.
NICK: There's an overrepresentation within
NICK: our YOS (Youth Offending Service) and alternative
NICK: education systems of people from ethnically
NICK: minoritised backgrounds.
NICK: And I wonder if we had an intersectional of
NICK: understanding of how trauma manifests - both trauma
NICK: in the home, and outside of the home,
NICK: intergenerational trauma, communal trauma - would
NICK: we have a more therapeutic approach, rather than this
NICK: punitive and managed approach to how we work with
NICK: some of our young people, particularly
NICK: boys, where class, ethnicity
NICK: and gender and age intersects?
JAHNINE: 100 percent. I agree.
JAHNINE: And I think it makes me... as
JAHNINE: I'm saying this, I feel the discomfort of we're
JAHNINE: in safeguarding practise, and ultimately our work
JAHNINE: is to ensure that we are safeguarding and
JAHNINE: protecting children and young people,
JAHNINE: but do we always do that?
JAHNINE: Do we have a perspective
JAHNINE: or a perception of a deserving and undeserving
JAHNINE: victim? And who does that look like?
JAHNINE: And we have to own that.
JAHNINE: We have to own that. And I think, in an ideal
JAHNINE: world, you want to say, well, you know, we're doing
JAHNINE: what we can. Yes, we know that there are the
JAHNINE: background challenges which continue to be there in
JAHNINE: terms of high case loads and burnout.
JAHNINE: There is a context which we mustn't
JAHNINE: disregard, but, oppression,
JAHNINE: discrimination exists.
JAHNINE: It exists in our society.
JAHNINE: Racism is real. Something me and Nick always say in
JAHNINE: any learning and development workshop we go in,
JAHNINE: we're like, 'look, we're not here to to decide
JAHNINE: or to discuss if racism, as an example, is a real
JAHNINE: thing. We know it is. So we're not going to
JAHNINE: converse on that. What we're going to now look at
JAHNINE: is what does that mean in terms of your practice?
JAHNINE: What does that mean in terms of the individual
JAHNINE: responsibility that you take in terms of working
JAHNINE: with young people from ethnic minoritised
JAHNINE: communities? What does that mean on a systemic
JAHNINE: level?' and these are the things we have to
JAHNINE: consider when we think about intersectionality.
JAHNINE: We are inviting professionals, as I said,
JAHNINE: to step outside of their own
JAHNINE: experiences in terms of, 'well, this is the work we
JAHNINE: do, we work with young people.
JAHNINE: We might have a service for young boys'.
JAHNINE: That's great. But again, if you're still just
JAHNINE: saying a service for boys, and you're not thinking
JAHNINE: about those intersections, so touching on the point
JAHNINE: school to prison pipeline, well then, look at that
JAHNINE: from an intersectional perspective.
JAHNINE: Let's talk about why we still have Black British
JAHNINE: Caribbean boys still three times more likely
JAHNINE: to be permanently excluded than their peers.
JAHNINE: Let's look at why Gypsy-Roma Traveller boys are
JAHNINE: still more likely to be temporary excluded than
JAHNINE: their other peers. Let's talk about attainment in
JAHNINE: terms of white working class boys and why that
JAHNINE: still playing out.
SPEAKER: So we can take an intersectional approach to
SPEAKER: really allow us to see between the lines rather
SPEAKER: than just saying, 'well, we know in education we
SPEAKER: have this issue over here' or 'we know that
SPEAKER: boys are more likely to experience punitive
SPEAKER: responses', I would say, well, actually, let's look
SPEAKER: at girls. Let's look at girls from minoritised and
SPEAKER: marginalised backgrounds, because I think you see
SPEAKER: something similar playing out.
SPEAKER: When I think about my research, I see Black
SPEAKER: girls saying, 'well, actually we're getting
SPEAKER: punitive responses because no one is seeing us.
SPEAKER: We're being criminalised because no one is
SPEAKER: understanding our trauma, because everyone is
SPEAKER: responding to what they think our trauma is, or
SPEAKER: seeing our trauma as an issue and pathologising our
SPEAKER: experiences, rather than just acknowledging that we
SPEAKER: are children who have experienced abuse'.
SPEAKER: So, intersectionality is broad and
SPEAKER: encompassing. But ultimately, I would say it allows
SPEAKER: you just to explore bias, identity, positionality
SPEAKER: and inequality.
INEKE: How can we support practitioners to
INEKE: start thinking more around intersectionality?
INEKE: What would you advise?
JAHNINE: So I guess there are a number of things.
JAHNINE: First, educate yourselves.
JAHNINE: There's so much resources.
JAHNINE: You just type in intersectionality and you'll get a
JAHNINE: plethora of resource.
JAHNINE: And I guess that leads to my first point, that
JAHNINE: when we think about intersectionality it's so
JAHNINE: important that we remember its origins, so that we
JAHNINE: don't possibly erase or
JAHNINE: dismiss the experiences of Black women and girls,
JAHNINE: that by implying intersectionality, again, allows
JAHNINE: us to be really explorative and curious.
JAHNINE: But we need to also acknowledge that Black women
JAHNINE: and girls still bear the brunt of sexist, racist
JAHNINE: and classist opressions. And we must not forget
JAHNINE: that. Because those experiences still exist today.
JAHNINE: So we must ensure that as we amplify other
JAHNINE: experiences, we always remember to also
JAHNINE: amplify those too.
SPEAKER: And let's take action.
SPEAKER: Thinking about the work that you do, use those
SPEAKER: reflective spaces - whether that's in supervision,
SPEAKER: whether it's group supervision - to really discuss
SPEAKER: them and think about how intersectionality can
SPEAKER: strengthen your work. Or if you're already applying
SPEAKER: it to your work, to be able to explore how
SPEAKER: it's making an impact. So you want to do some dip
SPEAKER: sampling looking at some of your various different
SPEAKER: case files, thinking about the groups of young
SPEAKER: people you work with and explore how often identity
SPEAKER: is explored in your discussions and in your
SPEAKER: intervention. And again, think about how you
SPEAKER: apply your interventions and the work that you do
SPEAKER: and how often you explore your implicit and
SPEAKER: explicit biases. How do they play out in your work?
SPEAKER: Not just with the young people you support, but
SPEAKER: also with your colleagues as well.
SPEAKER: But in order to do that, you must take
SPEAKER: responsibility. We have to be responsible for our
SPEAKER: own practice. Yes, we are in a system, and let's
SPEAKER: think about those systemic barriers and
SPEAKER: challenges, but we also need to think about us as
SPEAKER: individuals. What can we be doing differently?
SPEAKER: How often do we reflect with you and challenge what
SPEAKER: we read? The research which we look at, who
SPEAKER: that research is for? Who the dominant voice and
SPEAKER: experiences are and therefore, again, how does that
SPEAKER: possibly influence how we understand other
SPEAKER: experiences which might differ outside of those
SPEAKER: spaces? And again, question, how can
SPEAKER: intersectionality really help inform your work?
SPEAKER: Most importantly, speak to young
SPEAKER: people and families. Hear directly from them.
SPEAKER: Be brave. Be bold.
SPEAKER: Be courageous to ask questions about their
SPEAKER: identity, their experience, celebrate that.
SPEAKER: Explore how young people experience
SPEAKER: the world. Shape your interventions, the work you
SPEAKER: do around that. Ensure that you're really being
SPEAKER: strengths-based and person-centred, by not only
SPEAKER: just exploring perceptions of behaviour or the
SPEAKER: behaviour we feel young people may be presenting -
SPEAKER: especially those who are minoritised or from
SPEAKER: marginalised backgrounds where we know they're at a
SPEAKER: heightened risk of experiencing those negative
SPEAKER: stereotypes. How do we ensure that we reflect
SPEAKER: on behaviour as an indicator of something else - of
SPEAKER: possible trauma - rather than assuming it's
SPEAKER: just a negative stereotype based on who
SPEAKER: we think those people are.
SPEAKER: Let's hear directly from young people and let that
SPEAKER: guide and shape the work that we do.