1 00:00:03,010 --> 00:00:10,690 INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast, where we share learning and expertise in child protection from inside and outside of the 2 00:00:10,690 --> 00:00:15,730 INTRODUCTION: organisation, we aim to create debate, encourage, reflection and share good 3 00:00:15,730 --> 00:00:24,080 INTRODUCTION: practice on how we can all work together to keep babies, children and young people safe. 4 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:30,020 ALI: Hi, and thanks for listening to the latest NSPCC Learning podcast. In this episode, we talk to 5 00:00:30,020 --> 00:00:36,199 ALI: Jahnine Davis and Nick Marsh, founders of Listen Up, an organisation that engages 6 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:41,510 ALI: professionals to critically reflect on approaches to safeguarding children and young people. 7 00:00:41,510 --> 00:00:44,629 ALI: - and you'll find links to Listen Up on this podcast's webpage. The conversation with Jahnine and Nick was recorded 8 00:00:44,629 --> 00:00:54,259 ALI: in May 2021 and focuses on intersectionality, which underpins all of Listen Up's 9 00:00:54,260 --> 00:1:00,350 ALI: work. Intersectionality is vital for professionals who work with children and young people 10 00:01:00,350 --> 00:01:10,399 ALI: to know about, understand and apply in practice. Jahnine and Nick sat down with Ineke Houtenbos, a senior consultant with the NSPCC, where they 11 00:01:10,490 --> 00:01:19,889 ALI: discuss what intersectionality is, its origins and its importance in safeguarding and protecting children and young people. 12 00:01:20,766 --> 00:01:23,919 INEKE: Hi, so we're sitting here with Jahnine and Nick 13 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,919 INEKE: from Listen Up, and today we are going to 14 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,839 INEKE: be talking about intersectionality. 15 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,749 INEKE: And the question that we really want to cover today 16 00:01:31,750 --> 00:01:34,749 INEKE: is: what is intersectionality and how 17 00:01:34,750 --> 00:01:36,489 INEKE: does it impact on children and young people, 18 00:01:36,490 --> 00:01:39,129 INEKE: especially when it comes to safeguarding and child 19 00:01:39,130 --> 00:01:41,550 INEKE: protection? There's a lot for us to cover today. 20 00:01:42,610 --> 00:01:44,709 INEKE: So who wants to start? 21 00:01:44,710 --> 00:01:46,419 INEKE: What do we actually mean when we talk about 22 00:01:46,420 --> 00:01:49,329 INEKE: intersectionality? What does that mean to us? 23 00:01:49,330 --> 00:01:53,499 JAHNINE: Intersectionality means, ultimately, 24 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:57,039 JAHNINE: how we are positioned within 25 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:58,522 JAHNINE: society, within the world. 26 00:01:58,523 --> 00:02:01,839 JAHNINE: It allows us to explore all of the different 27 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,259 JAHNINE: elements which make up our identities. 28 00:02:05,260 --> 00:02:08,533 JAHNINE: So that includes our race, ethnicity, our 29 00:02:08,534 --> 00:02:10,373 JAHNINE: gender, sexuality, our age - all 30 00:02:11,830 --> 00:02:14,259 JAHNINE: of these areas - our locations, where we live. 31 00:02:14,260 --> 00:02:16,640 JAHNINE: So intersectionality is around how 32 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,889 JAHNINE: our intersecting identities collide, 33 00:02:20,890 --> 00:02:23,169 JAHNINE: how they intersect, how they come together so that 34 00:02:23,170 --> 00:02:25,719 JAHNINE: we're not just taking universal approaches or 35 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,959 JAHNINE: perspectives to understand experiences, 36 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,199 JAHNINE: but instead we're looking at how me, 37 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,319 JAHNINE: for example, how my intersections as a black 38 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,229 JAHNINE: working class woman, how I'm not just going to 39 00:02:38,230 --> 00:02:41,409 JAHNINE: experience racism over there, or sexism 40 00:02:41,410 --> 00:02:44,169 JAHNINE: over there, or classism over there, but actually 41 00:02:44,170 --> 00:02:46,689 JAHNINE: all of those experiences are experienced 42 00:02:46,690 --> 00:02:48,069 JAHNINE: simultaneously. 43 00:02:48,070 --> 00:02:50,979 SPEAKER: So intersectionality really allows professionals to 44 00:02:50,980 --> 00:02:53,589 SPEAKER: just be that bit more curious to ensure we aren't 45 00:02:53,590 --> 00:02:56,589 SPEAKER: just taking a one-size-fits-all approach, but 46 00:02:56,590 --> 00:02:58,989 SPEAKER: instead we're really looking at those various 47 00:02:58,990 --> 00:03:01,784 SPEAKER: different dynamics which make up who we are. 48 00:03:01,785 --> 00:03:04,749 NICK: There's a quote by Audre Lorde that I really like when 49 00:03:04,750 --> 00:03:07,299 NICK: I think about intersectionality - and I might not get 50 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:10,419 NICK: the whole quote right off the top of my head - but 51 00:03:10,420 --> 00:03:13,449 NICK: she talks about, without intersectionality, we're 52 00:03:13,450 --> 00:03:16,119 NICK: being encouraged to just pluck out one aspect of our 53 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,629 NICK: character and seeing this as a meaningful whole, 54 00:03:19,630 --> 00:03:22,779 NICK: as opposed to our complete experiences of who we 55 00:03:22,780 --> 00:03:25,690 NICK: are. Actually, without this, we might take a mono-lens 56 00:03:26,830 --> 00:03:30,159 NICK: and just see a person as a male, a female, 57 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,249 NICK: as part of the LGBTQ+ community, a Black 58 00:03:33,250 --> 00:03:36,009 NICK: person, an Asian person, rather than seeing how all 59 00:03:36,010 --> 00:03:39,069 NICK: these interact and compound one another. 60 00:03:39,070 --> 00:03:41,649 INEKE: Absolutely, because I think the concept gives us the 61 00:03:41,650 --> 00:03:44,799 INEKE: opportunity to really look 62 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,319 INEKE: at a person's lived experience without putting them 63 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,199 INEKE: into boxes. Because that can be very easy sometimes. 64 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:51,879 INEKE: And I think especially when we're talking about 65 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,579 INEKE: working with people, whether they be young people or 66 00:03:54,580 --> 00:03:58,299 INEKE: adults, we often want that tick box of, 'where 67 00:03:58,300 --> 00:04:01,449 INEKE: do they fit?'. But this concept has 68 00:04:01,450 --> 00:04:03,450 INEKE: the power to encourage 69 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,239 INEKE: us to think about people as more than that. 70 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,459 INEKE: Because there's so much more to all of our lived 71 00:04:09,460 --> 00:04:12,249 INEKE: experiences. And this concept really gives us an 72 00:04:12,250 --> 00:04:15,609 INEKE: opportunity to talk about it from that point of view. 73 00:04:15,610 --> 00:04:16,946 JAHNINE: Definitely. Especially when 74 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,709 JAHNINE: we think about child protection and safeguarding 75 00:04:20,710 --> 00:04:23,589 JAHNINE: because intersectionality isn't new. 76 00:04:23,590 --> 00:04:25,899 JAHNINE: And I think that's something Nick and I always 77 00:04:25,900 --> 00:04:29,259 JAHNINE: encourage professional services to really 78 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:32,679 JAHNINE: ensure they don't erase the origin 79 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:33,814 JAHNINE: and the history of intersectionality. Because 80 00:04:34,870 --> 00:04:37,959 JAHNINE: intersectionality really was founded within black 81 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:39,399 JAHNINE: feminist activism. 82 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,099 JAHNINE: That's when we see intersectionality really taking 83 00:04:42,100 --> 00:04:44,739 JAHNINE: hold to challenge the kind of status quo, the 84 00:04:44,740 --> 00:04:47,829 JAHNINE: universal assumptions around what 85 00:04:47,830 --> 00:04:50,799 JAHNINE: feminist activism was - that actually didn't 86 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,529 JAHNINE: acknowledge, or always consider, those various 87 00:04:53,530 --> 00:04:56,259 JAHNINE: different challenges, experiences, that Black and 88 00:04:56,260 --> 00:04:59,019 JAHNINE: minoritised women and girls encountered. 89 00:04:59,020 --> 00:05:00,184 SPEAKER: So when we think about intersectionality, we 90 00:05:02,170 --> 00:05:04,779 SPEAKER: can't think about intersectionality without talking 91 00:05:04,780 --> 00:05:06,849 SPEAKER: about Black feminist activism. 92 00:05:06,850 --> 00:05:10,059 SPEAKER: And the reason why that's so important is because 93 00:05:10,060 --> 00:05:13,269 SPEAKER: intersectionality allows us to explore 94 00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:17,259 SPEAKER: how black women and girls experiences 95 00:05:17,260 --> 00:05:20,439 SPEAKER: of gendered violence have positioned 96 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,329 SPEAKER: them in ways where sometimes those experiences 97 00:05:22,330 --> 00:05:24,459 SPEAKER: haven't always been acknowledged. They haven't 98 00:05:24,460 --> 00:05:26,709 SPEAKER: always been amplified. 99 00:05:26,710 --> 00:05:29,949 SPEAKER: As intersectionality has developed over the years - 100 00:05:29,950 --> 00:05:32,739 SPEAKER: we have Kimberley Crenshaw in the late 80s, early 101 00:05:32,740 --> 00:05:35,529 SPEAKER: 90s from her work, 'Mapping the Margins', talking 102 00:05:35,530 --> 00:05:38,109 SPEAKER: about intersectionality, actually coining the term 103 00:05:38,110 --> 00:05:41,229 SPEAKER: intersectionality as a theory, not just as 104 00:05:41,230 --> 00:05:44,589 SPEAKER: a concept, has been instrumental 105 00:05:44,590 --> 00:05:47,619 SPEAKER: in Black feminist activism years 106 00:05:47,620 --> 00:05:50,619 SPEAKER: prior. So I think what we're now seeing, 107 00:05:50,620 --> 00:05:53,169 SPEAKER: which is really exciting, is how intersectionality 108 00:05:53,170 --> 00:05:56,289 SPEAKER: is starting to take form in safeguarding 109 00:05:56,290 --> 00:05:58,549 SPEAKER: practice. And I think that's something which is new 110 00:05:58,550 --> 00:06:00,969 SPEAKER: because, as I said, in the VAWG sector - violence 111 00:06:00,970 --> 00:06:03,189 SPEAKER: against women and girls - it's something we've been 112 00:06:03,190 --> 00:06:04,929 SPEAKER: seeing and knowing for years. 113 00:06:04,930 --> 00:06:07,659 SPEAKER: What we're now seeing is how it's now being lifted 114 00:06:07,660 --> 00:06:10,419 SPEAKER: up in safeguarding. 115 00:06:10,420 --> 00:06:13,089 NICK: When we think about safeguarding - I'm social worker 116 00:06:13,090 --> 00:06:16,779 NICK: and I reflect back on my social work training, 117 00:06:16,780 --> 00:06:19,829 NICK: my social work degree and even my practice, we're 118 00:06:19,830 --> 00:06:22,109 NICK: often encouraged to see 119 00:06:23,910 --> 00:06:26,339 NICK: young people through a snapshot. 120 00:06:26,340 --> 00:06:28,169 NICK: So when we think of an assessment, it's only ever a 121 00:06:28,170 --> 00:06:29,609 NICK: snapshot of a young person's life. 122 00:06:29,610 --> 00:06:32,729 NICK: But what this can do is pluck them from their 123 00:06:32,730 --> 00:06:35,819 NICK: social experiences, pluck them from their identity. 124 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:36,820 NICK: And we might see - just 125 00:06:40,350 --> 00:06:42,149 NICK: thinking about age, for example, adolescent 126 00:06:42,150 --> 00:06:45,179 NICK: development - not every young person 127 00:06:45,180 --> 00:06:48,209 NICK: fits neatly into our psycho-social 128 00:06:48,210 --> 00:06:49,949 NICK: theories around adolescent development. 129 00:06:49,950 --> 00:06:52,151 NICK: We often see adolescent development as, 'oh, they're 130 00:06:52,152 --> 00:06:55,149 NICK: ten-years-old they're now entering adolescence', 131 00:06:55,150 --> 00:06:57,103 NICK: rather than thinking, 'who is the young person? 132 00:06:57,104 --> 00:06:58,949 NICK: What are their experiences? 133 00:06:58,950 --> 00:07:01,606 NICK: What are their family's experiences - 134 00:07:01,607 --> 00:07:03,689 NICK: inter-generationally and contemporary?' and thinking 135 00:07:03,690 --> 00:07:06,180 NICK: that adolescent development doesn't start at ten, it 136 00:07:06,181 --> 00:07:08,339 NICK: actually is, who the family are, it's their 137 00:07:08,340 --> 00:07:11,369 NICK: experiences - any migration patterns, their 138 00:07:11,370 --> 00:07:14,249 NICK: ethnicity, class, gender, etc. 139 00:07:14,250 --> 00:07:16,589 NICK: So adolescent development starts way before the young 140 00:07:16,590 --> 00:07:19,259 NICK: person is even born. So I think we need to start to 141 00:07:19,260 --> 00:07:22,619 NICK: really critique our understanding and our assessments 142 00:07:22,620 --> 00:07:25,709 NICK: by thinking more systemically, and intersectionality 143 00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:26,819 NICK: is part of that. 144 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:29,639 INEKE: Absolutely. And I think it's really important that we 145 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,639 INEKE: recognise that we already have that language 146 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,319 INEKE: in social work practice. 147 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,169 INEKE: Because we very often talk about capturing the 148 00:07:37,170 --> 00:07:38,579 INEKE: child's views. 149 00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:42,209 INEKE: But that's very different for a child to articulate. 150 00:07:42,210 --> 00:07:45,209 INEKE: And always recognising, too, that whenever we 151 00:07:45,210 --> 00:07:48,599 INEKE: are in that interaction with a child, 152 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,599 INEKE: there is a level of power 153 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,339 INEKE: dynamic at play. 154 00:07:53,340 --> 00:07:56,399 INEKE: And children are very good sometimes at 155 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,739 INEKE: knowing how to act in certain situations. 156 00:07:58,740 --> 00:08:01,919 INEKE: So we as professionals have to ask 157 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,229 INEKE: those questions. We have to ask those difficult 158 00:08:04,230 --> 00:08:06,449 INEKE: questions of, 'what is life like for you? 159 00:08:06,450 --> 00:08:08,759 INEKE: What does that mean for you? 160 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:09,829 INEKE: What does that look like?'. 161 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,619 INEKE: Because if we're not, how are we ever going to 162 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:16,079 INEKE: capture their views if we don't understand where 163 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,039 INEKE: they're coming from? 164 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,769 JAHNINE: And I think the point you raise comes up quite a 165 00:08:19,770 --> 00:08:21,809 JAHNINE: lot in terms of those difficult questions. 166 00:08:21,810 --> 00:08:24,179 JAHNINE: And something I always invite professionals to 167 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:26,429 JAHNINE: consider is, who is it difficult for? 168 00:08:26,430 --> 00:08:29,399 JAHNINE: Because actually these are experiences, I think, 169 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,709 JAHNINE: how if we're not used to normalising those 170 00:08:31,710 --> 00:08:34,139 JAHNINE: discussions and we're not used to as professionals 171 00:08:34,140 --> 00:08:37,559 JAHNINE: having coversations about identity, about bias, 172 00:08:37,560 --> 00:08:39,513 JAHNINE: about discrimination, they're difficult for us, 173 00:08:39,514 --> 00:08:42,059 JAHNINE: they're not difficult for that young person. 174 00:08:42,060 --> 00:08:45,299 JAHNINE: They have been navigating those experiences 175 00:08:45,300 --> 00:08:47,219 JAHNINE: throughout their life course. 176 00:08:47,220 --> 00:08:49,779 JAHNINE: I think it's more about, as professionals, how can 177 00:08:49,780 --> 00:08:52,259 JAHNINE: we hold space to ensure that these conversations 178 00:08:52,260 --> 00:08:55,409 JAHNINE: don't only come up when we have somebody from 179 00:08:55,410 --> 00:08:58,169 JAHNINE: a minoritised or marginalised background. 180 00:08:58,170 --> 00:09:01,349 JAHNINE: So I think instead it's about, how can we ensure 181 00:09:01,350 --> 00:09:04,109 JAHNINE: that these are just a part of our day today? 182 00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:07,019 INEKE: Absolutely. That that's kind of just a normal part of 183 00:09:07,020 --> 00:09:10,139 INEKE: being able to explore those experiences 184 00:09:10,140 --> 00:09:11,429 INEKE: with young people. 185 00:09:11,430 --> 00:09:14,519 INEKE: And sometimes that does mean that no matter how 186 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,649 INEKE: experienced you are as a social worker, that you need 187 00:09:16,650 --> 00:09:19,049 INEKE: to go back and check yourself and kind of go, 'what 188 00:09:19,050 --> 00:09:20,699 INEKE: questions do I need to be asking? 189 00:09:20,700 --> 00:09:24,239 INEKE: And if I'm not asking them, why?' 190 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,389 NICK: And also it's not just about 191 00:09:27,390 --> 00:09:28,859 NICK: questions. 192 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:32,109 NICK: Jahnine and myself were providing training recently 193 00:09:32,110 --> 00:09:34,080 NICK: and some of the conversations 194 00:09:35,850 --> 00:09:38,699 NICK: centred around; a white professional said, 'sometimes 195 00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:40,649 NICK: as a white professional, when I raise issues around 196 00:09:40,650 --> 00:09:44,339 NICK: racism, homophobia, sexism, 197 00:09:44,340 --> 00:09:46,589 NICK: I feel like I'm making an issue and the young person 198 00:09:46,590 --> 00:09:49,739 NICK: might not have experienced that.' But I think 199 00:09:49,740 --> 00:09:52,859 NICK: we have to not place as much onus 200 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:55,559 NICK: on the young person being able to articulate what 201 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:58,648 NICK: systemic racism or systemic social inequality 202 00:09:58,649 --> 00:10:00,380 NICK: feels like. I know as a LGBT 203 00:10:01,830 --> 00:10:04,949 NICK: young person, I didn't necessarily know 204 00:10:04,950 --> 00:10:08,669 NICK: what homophobia was, or what I was experiencing 205 00:10:08,670 --> 00:10:10,379 NICK: might have been homophobic. I, as a child, and 206 00:10:10,380 --> 00:10:12,389 NICK: understanding child development, we know that we 207 00:10:12,390 --> 00:10:15,389 NICK: internalise these feelings, 'oh, it's me, it is 208 00:10:15,390 --> 00:10:18,569 NICK: how I feel about myself. I must be not as good as 209 00:10:18,570 --> 00:10:22,169 NICK: etc.' So we can't always just rely on a young person 210 00:10:22,170 --> 00:10:24,479 NICK: being able to articulate or pinpoint their 211 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,569 NICK: experiences. We have to also use our 212 00:10:27,570 --> 00:10:29,639 NICK: understanding of how the world functions and 213 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,149 NICK: acknowledge that racism and social inequality, exists, 214 00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:36,209 NICK: sexism exists, and apply that to our assessments as 215 00:10:36,210 --> 00:10:36,842 NICK: well. 216 00:10:36,843 --> 00:10:38,399 INEKE: And ableism as well. 217 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,979 INEKE: You know, from all these different points of view 218 00:10:40,980 --> 00:10:44,009 INEKE: that we're knowledgeable enough 219 00:10:44,010 --> 00:10:47,129 INEKE: ourselves to have those conversations effectively 220 00:10:47,130 --> 00:10:49,199 INEKE: with young people in a safe way. 221 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,019 INEKE: But that's I think, again, is the only way that we're 222 00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:54,899 INEKE: ever going to really get their views and their voice 223 00:10:54,900 --> 00:10:58,319 INEKE: heard. And we know that from serious case reviews, 224 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,321 INEKE: going back to Victoria Climbie, when 225 00:11:01,590 --> 00:11:03,959 INEKE: we're talking about what was that child going 226 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,119 INEKE: through? Do we really understand that? 227 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,299 INEKE: Who asked? Who stopped to ask, 'what 228 00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:11,309 INEKE: is life like for you?'. 229 00:11:11,310 --> 00:11:14,309 INEKE: And I think it's very easy sometimes to get caught up 230 00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:17,369 INEKE: in the process, and forget that 231 00:11:17,370 --> 00:11:20,569 INEKE: there is a child with lived experience that really 232 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:23,929 INEKE: matters. That really matters for us to be able to 233 00:11:23,930 --> 00:11:26,569 INEKE: effectively engage with them and effectively affect 234 00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:29,689 INEKE: change in their life, we need to understand who they 235 00:11:29,690 --> 00:11:30,379 INEKE: are. 236 00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:33,139 JAHNINE: I agree. And I think in order to do that we have to 237 00:11:33,140 --> 00:11:35,209 JAHNINE: be brave to know that, as professionals, we don't 238 00:11:35,210 --> 00:11:37,039 JAHNINE: know everything. And there are some times we're 239 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,039 JAHNINE: going to make mistakes. And I think we have to 240 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,529 JAHNINE: acknowledge, unfortunately, that sometimes due to 241 00:11:42,530 --> 00:11:44,869 JAHNINE: this kind of blame, this culture of blame, it can 242 00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:46,729 JAHNINE: make professionals quite... it's quite difficult to 243 00:11:46,730 --> 00:11:49,249 JAHNINE: say, 'well, actually, I don't know' or 'I can't be 244 00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:52,009 JAHNINE: knowledgeable on every single thing related to 245 00:11:52,010 --> 00:11:54,299 JAHNINE: equity, diversity and inclusion', for example. 246 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:56,959 JAHNINE: No, no, you can't. What you can do is be brave to 247 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,599 JAHNINE: acknowledge what those gaps are so then you know 248 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,879 JAHNINE: what support you might need to continue developing 249 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:02,629 JAHNINE: your learning. 250 00:12:02,630 --> 00:12:05,089 SPEAKER: When we think about work with young people, I think 251 00:12:05,090 --> 00:12:06,469 SPEAKER: we focus so much on 252 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,029 SPEAKER: the young person, their identity, their 253 00:12:11,030 --> 00:12:13,099 SPEAKER: positionality, but we also need to be able to 254 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:15,439 SPEAKER: acknowledge our own, that there were various 255 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,749 SPEAKER: different experiences in that space which are 256 00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:19,969 SPEAKER: intersecting and coming out and playing out in 257 00:12:19,970 --> 00:12:21,919 SPEAKER: various different ways. And as professionals, we 258 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,510 SPEAKER: have our own intersecting identities, too, as Nick 259 00:12:24,511 --> 00:12:25,609 SPEAKER: was just sharing. 260 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:27,757 SPEAKER: So I think, when we think about intersectionality, 261 00:12:27,758 --> 00:12:30,859 SPEAKER: the word itself can feel really quite long and 262 00:12:30,860 --> 00:12:33,559 SPEAKER: complex. It really is not. We're talking about 263 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:36,349 SPEAKER: identity. We're inviting you as professionals, as 264 00:12:36,350 --> 00:12:39,649 SPEAKER: services to consider identity on a micro 265 00:12:39,650 --> 00:12:42,709 SPEAKER: like level in terms of with family, how 266 00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:46,279 SPEAKER: identity interacts within your familial context, 267 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,369 SPEAKER: within your neighbourhoods, but also what that then 268 00:12:49,370 --> 00:12:52,009 SPEAKER: means from a macro level in terms of looking at 269 00:12:52,010 --> 00:12:55,459 SPEAKER: those wider, different elements of structural 270 00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:57,409 SPEAKER: and systemic inequalities and how they 271 00:12:57,410 --> 00:12:58,430 SPEAKER: operationalise. 272 00:13:01,250 --> 00:13:04,292 SPEAKER: There was a point you raised around assessments and 273 00:13:06,110 --> 00:13:08,089 SPEAKER: the different challenges with assessments, I would 274 00:13:08,090 --> 00:13:10,399 SPEAKER: say that one of the challenges is that they're 275 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,459 SPEAKER: still quite universal. That they focus on universal 276 00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:16,669 SPEAKER: experiences based on a dominant group 277 00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:19,729 SPEAKER: of young people we might research; based on what 278 00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:21,649 SPEAKER: research is saying, so that what we don't 279 00:13:21,650 --> 00:13:24,889 SPEAKER: necessarily have are assessments which allow 280 00:13:24,890 --> 00:13:26,929 SPEAKER: for that intersectional experience. 281 00:13:26,930 --> 00:13:28,729 SPEAKER: And that's why it's even more important for 282 00:13:28,730 --> 00:13:31,279 SPEAKER: professionals to use their professional curiosity 283 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,579 SPEAKER: to apply that to their learning, to ensure we are 284 00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:37,249 SPEAKER: thinking about those different identities and we're 285 00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:39,619 SPEAKER: not just saying what we've done, this assessment, 286 00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:42,019 SPEAKER: this is what it is. And then we've ticked this box 287 00:13:42,020 --> 00:13:44,038 SPEAKER: and that's it. How do we ensure that we apply that 288 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,777 SPEAKER: intersectional understanding to 289 00:13:49,778 --> 00:13:51,209 SPEAKER: everything that we do? 290 00:13:51,210 --> 00:13:54,299 NICK: We have to think about what underpins the assessment 291 00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:57,227 NICK: framework on our contemporary application of that, 292 00:13:58,350 --> 00:14:00,509 NICK: and also what underpins social work. 293 00:14:00,510 --> 00:14:03,869 NICK: If we think about the theories, social 294 00:14:03,870 --> 00:14:05,698 NICK: work learning models and social work theories, we 295 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,869 NICK: have to think of Bowlby attachment theory, Erik 296 00:14:09,870 --> 00:14:11,522 NICK: Erickson life-cycle, Bronfenbrenner systems 297 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,418 NICK: theory and ecological theory - and although his work, 298 00:14:15,419 --> 00:14:18,509 NICK: especially in the later years, did pick 299 00:14:18,510 --> 00:14:21,509 NICK: up people's bio-ecological elements, when we 300 00:14:21,510 --> 00:14:23,249 NICK: think of systems, they're are actually very 301 00:14:23,250 --> 00:14:26,549 NICK: heteronormative, Eurocentric and ableist. 302 00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:29,699 NICK: So instantly our training as a social worker, 303 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:32,849 NICK: we have to then apply a critical lens 304 00:14:32,850 --> 00:14:35,459 NICK: to what we're doing and how our training has been 305 00:14:35,460 --> 00:14:38,909 NICK: embedded upon us and within us, 306 00:14:38,910 --> 00:14:41,819 NICK: and how we view young people, how we view child 307 00:14:41,820 --> 00:14:44,489 NICK: development, how we view healthy relationships, how we 308 00:14:44,490 --> 00:14:47,579 NICK: view independence, what independence 309 00:14:47,580 --> 00:14:50,069 NICK: looks like, how we view risk-taking and think about 310 00:14:50,070 --> 00:14:53,129 NICK: all of our theories push us down one 311 00:14:53,130 --> 00:14:55,859 NICK: avenue and then being able to have spaces to 312 00:14:55,860 --> 00:14:58,559 NICK: critically reflect on that and what that means and how 313 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,619 NICK: that influences our policies, our interventions, 314 00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:05,459 NICK: our practises, and how gendered they can be, how 315 00:15:05,460 --> 00:15:08,099 NICK: Eurocentric they can be, and all the other elements of 316 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:11,319 NICK: intersectionality. I think what further can compound 317 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:12,689 NICK: that is, who are our team? 318 00:15:12,690 --> 00:15:14,579 NICK: Who are the decision makers? 319 00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:16,109 NICK: Where's diversity within team? 320 00:15:16,110 --> 00:15:18,779 NICK: Is it front-facing? It is right through to senior 321 00:15:18,780 --> 00:15:21,299 NICK: leadership? Is it male and female? 322 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:24,329 NICK: Who are creating and designing our 323 00:15:24,330 --> 00:15:26,969 NICK: interventions? And what does this mean when we then 324 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:29,039 NICK: apply them to young people? 325 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,099 INEKE: Absolutely. And I think, too, about the concept of 326 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:33,100 INEKE: being evidence-based. 327 00:15:33,750 --> 00:15:36,749 INEKE: You know, a lot of organisations talk about being 328 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:39,839 INEKE: evidence-based, a lot of the systems that 329 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,569 INEKE: we use, as you say, evidence-based. 330 00:15:42,570 --> 00:15:45,449 INEKE: And yet we don't necessarily take that time always to 331 00:15:45,450 --> 00:15:48,719 INEKE: critically reflect on who was 332 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,869 INEKE: represented in that evidence and who did we speak to, 333 00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:53,999 INEKE: which voices are being heard on the basis of that 334 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,819 INEKE: evidence. And the work that you've done, Jahnine, 335 00:15:56,820 --> 00:15:59,999 INEKE: around giving black girls a voice in CSA 336 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,639 INEKE: research is so important because I don't even think 337 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,203 INEKE: that people recognise that, or 338 00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:07,939 INEKE: ask that question, we just kind of see 339 00:16:07,940 --> 00:16:10,579 INEKE: evidence-based, peer-reviewed, wonderful, let's go. 340 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:13,429 INEKE: And we're not stopping to go, 'actually who was 341 00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:16,650 INEKE: researched here?'. Because that matters. 342 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,429 INEKE: Especially when we're talking about all those 343 00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:21,799 INEKE: universal services and all the universal ways that we 344 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:23,869 INEKE: try to roll out what we do. 345 00:16:23,870 --> 00:16:26,989 INEKE: It's just not always going to reach those 346 00:16:26,990 --> 00:16:30,439 INEKE: communities. And that's my pet peeve about that 347 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,059 INEKE: word of, 'hard to reach'. 348 00:16:32,060 --> 00:16:33,499 INEKE: Communities aren't hard to reach. 349 00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:34,500 INEKE: They're right there. 350 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:37,639 INEKE: They're right there. It's incumbent upon us, as 351 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,759 INEKE: organisations and professionals, to know enough. 352 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,619 INEKE: To have appropriate conversations. 353 00:16:42,620 --> 00:16:45,349 INEKE: To educate ourselves on all those aspects of 354 00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:47,569 INEKE: intersectionality so that we can go into those 355 00:16:47,570 --> 00:16:50,659 INEKE: communities and have an intelligent 356 00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:52,969 INEKE: conversation about what might be going on for those 357 00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:53,719 INEKE: people. 358 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,329 INEKE: Language is so important because language in itself 359 00:16:56,330 --> 00:16:58,819 INEKE: can really place a barrier. 360 00:16:58,820 --> 00:17:01,339 INEKE: And from our own learning, if we continue to use 361 00:17:01,340 --> 00:17:04,939 INEKE: language such as, 'disengaged', 'not engaged', 362 00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:07,939 INEKE: 'hard to reach', when actually, I think part 363 00:17:07,940 --> 00:17:11,269 INEKE: of that difficult question we were talking about 364 00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:13,819 INEKE: earlier, I think the difficult question is, as 365 00:17:13,820 --> 00:17:16,279 INEKE: professionals, as services, asking ourselves, 366 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,379 INEKE: actually, are our services hard to reach? 367 00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:20,749 INEKE: And how often do we look at our services, rather than 368 00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:24,259 INEKE: placing the onus and responsibility of traditionally 369 00:17:24,260 --> 00:17:27,679 INEKE: marginalised, minoritised communities 370 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,859 INEKE: to, 'why are you not coming in?' Or 'what work 371 00:17:30,860 --> 00:17:33,079 INEKE: do we need to do?'. There is something about 372 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,709 INEKE: constantly questioning, reflecting and thinking about 373 00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:38,709 INEKE: how our services are reachable. 374 00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:40,669 INEKE: And if they're not, what work do we need to do? 375 00:17:40,670 --> 00:17:42,349 INEKE: Who are our critical friends? 376 00:17:42,350 --> 00:17:45,049 INEKE: How evolved our we in working in partnership with 377 00:17:45,050 --> 00:17:47,209 INEKE: specialist organisations? 378 00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:49,879 INEKE: I think there is something about having to take that 379 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,329 INEKE: additional time to ensure that we are being 380 00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:55,039 INEKE: inclusive and equitable. 381 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,099 INEKE: That it can't just be that universal approach 382 00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:01,253 INEKE: or assumption that by having somebody with a 383 00:18:01,254 --> 00:18:02,899 INEKE: diverse workforce means we've ticked the box. 384 00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:05,628 INEKE: No, it doesn't. Because if that diversity, that 385 00:18:05,629 --> 00:18:08,239 INEKE: visible diversity, is not something we're seeing 386 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,209 INEKE: reflected within middle management, within senior 387 00:18:11,210 --> 00:18:14,359 INEKE: leadership, within the board, then again, we're still 388 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:17,539 INEKE: perpetuating and mimicking the social inequalities 389 00:18:17,540 --> 00:18:19,309 INEKE: we see happening externally. 390 00:18:19,310 --> 00:18:22,459 SPEAKER: So I think it's not just the outside work 391 00:18:22,460 --> 00:18:25,249 SPEAKER: in terms of how we work with various different 392 00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:28,159 SPEAKER: young people, especially when professionals working 393 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:29,659 SPEAKER: with young people from different backgrounds to 394 00:18:29,660 --> 00:18:32,089 SPEAKER: themselves, it's also thinking about what can we be 395 00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:35,149 SPEAKER: doing within our services to really strengthen our 396 00:18:35,150 --> 00:18:37,819 SPEAKER: approaches, to ensure that when we talk about 397 00:18:37,820 --> 00:18:40,369 SPEAKER: intersectionality, we are talking about equity, we 398 00:18:40,370 --> 00:18:42,468 SPEAKER: are talking about diversity and inclusion. 399 00:18:42,469 --> 00:18:45,079 SPEAKER: So how does that become just embedded across all 400 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,079 SPEAKER: layers, not just on the ground where we tend 401 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,109 SPEAKER: to see much more diversity 402 00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:51,859 SPEAKER: playing out? 403 00:18:51,860 --> 00:18:54,619 NICK: What this says to me, Jahnine, just thinking about 404 00:18:54,620 --> 00:18:57,799 NICK: this conversation is, we have to commit 405 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,669 NICK: serious resources to this. 406 00:18:59,670 --> 00:19:02,119 NICK: It can't be at the end of the financial year you have 407 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,995 NICK: ten thousand pounds left over, so let's get some EDI 408 00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:07,069 NICK: (equality, diversion and inclusion) training. It has 409 00:19:07,070 --> 00:19:09,199 NICK: to be integral to everything that we do. 410 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,619 NICK: We have to have spaces systemically 411 00:19:12,620 --> 00:19:15,899 NICK: from recruitment, retention, 412 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:18,889 NICK: reward, recognition, critiquing 413 00:19:18,890 --> 00:19:21,889 NICK: our assessments and our tools, our policies, looking 414 00:19:21,890 --> 00:19:25,459 NICK: through our practices, holding space, 415 00:19:25,460 --> 00:19:27,030 NICK: having uncomfortable conversations around 416 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,719 NICK: intersectional experiences. 417 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,559 NICK: It has to be a real and permanent commitment 418 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,359 NICK: to this area of practice. 419 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:38,059 NICK: To just have it as piecemeal, or something that's nice 420 00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:41,749 NICK: to do, is really providing a disservice 421 00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:44,899 NICK: to young people and our families that are from 422 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,509 NICK: minoritised and marginalised groups. 423 00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:49,590 JAHNINE: For sure. When 424 00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:55,219 JAHNINE: we think about intersectionality, it shouldn't just 425 00:19:55,220 --> 00:19:58,999 JAHNINE: be wrapped up as this 426 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,099 JAHNINE: area of, 'oh gosh, you know, it's going to be 427 00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:02,389 JAHNINE: challenging or complex'. 428 00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:04,459 JAHNINE: It's actually an opportunity to just celebrate 429 00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:06,769 JAHNINE: difference. To celebrate diversity. 430 00:20:06,770 --> 00:20:09,769 JAHNINE: We're all different. Obviously, those who 431 00:20:09,770 --> 00:20:12,139 JAHNINE: are listening can't see, but I'm just looking at 432 00:20:12,140 --> 00:20:14,743 JAHNINE: Nick, Ineke, Ali, me, and 433 00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:18,499 JAHNINE: we all are from different backgrounds, walks of 434 00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:20,287 JAHNINE: life, some of that's visible, some of it is not, 435 00:20:20,288 --> 00:20:22,369 JAHNINE: and why are we not celebrating that? 436 00:20:22,370 --> 00:20:24,799 JAHNINE: Why is it sometimes so difficult just to talk about 437 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,919 JAHNINE: identity as something rich and vibrant? 438 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,599 JAHNINE: Something which we should all be very proud of. 439 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,088 SPEAKER: And when we think about the work we, if we're 440 00:20:31,089 --> 00:20:33,089 SPEAKER: thinking about it being person-centred, 441 00:20:33,090 --> 00:20:36,079 SPEAKER: strengths-based and so forth, why are we not 442 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,229 SPEAKER: thinking about having those questions within 443 00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:41,459 SPEAKER: our sessions? Within those one-to-one spaces with 444 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:44,209 SPEAKER: young people? Because it's not just about 445 00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:47,329 SPEAKER: acknowledging and exploring the possible various 446 00:20:47,330 --> 00:20:49,495 SPEAKER: different oppressions they may have experienced - 447 00:20:49,496 --> 00:20:51,609 SPEAKER: or maybe at a heightened risk of experiencing. 448 00:20:51,610 --> 00:20:54,449 SPEAKER: It's also an opportunity for professionals, 449 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:57,229 SPEAKER: especially where you may not be used to working 450 00:20:57,230 --> 00:21:00,169 SPEAKER: with young people who differ from you in terms of 451 00:21:00,170 --> 00:21:02,599 SPEAKER: your backgrounds, it's an opportunity just to hear 452 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:03,979 SPEAKER: and learn and share. 453 00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:07,249 SPEAKER: So I think intersectionality, again, allows 454 00:21:07,250 --> 00:21:10,309 SPEAKER: you to just explore and to go that bit further; to 455 00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:12,889 SPEAKER: look beyond the universal lens; to think about that 456 00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:15,079 SPEAKER: kind of kaleidoscopic lens. 457 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,299 SPEAKER: So you're not just having this one-size-fits-all, 458 00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,299 SPEAKER: but actually an opportunity to just explore your 459 00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:22,459 SPEAKER: various differences. 460 00:21:22,460 --> 00:21:25,339 SPEAKER: And I think that's something we should celebrate. 461 00:21:25,340 --> 00:21:27,589 NICK: Intersectionality isn't just something we apply to 462 00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:29,226 NICK: others. It applies to ourselves. 463 00:21:29,227 --> 00:21:30,227 NICK: It applies to our colleagues. 464 00:21:31,070 --> 00:21:32,839 NICK: Our peers. Our senior leaders. 465 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,689 NICK: Understanding how all of us have intersectional 466 00:21:35,690 --> 00:21:38,389 NICK: experiences. We're all positioned differently in the 467 00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:40,369 NICK: world and experience the world differently. 468 00:21:40,370 --> 00:21:44,119 NICK: And that changes over time, on resources, 469 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:45,769 NICK: on climate. 470 00:21:45,770 --> 00:21:48,199 NICK: So our experiences aren't static either. 471 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,799 NICK: So it's really acknowledging that intersectionality 472 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,019 NICK: has a fluidity to it as well. 473 00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:55,669 JAHNINE: Some of the questions we don't always ask 474 00:21:55,670 --> 00:21:57,829 JAHNINE: ourselves, or the reflections for me, should be 475 00:21:57,830 --> 00:21:59,959 JAHNINE: around, actually, what have we missed? 476 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:02,449 JAHNINE: Because if we're not taking an intersectional 477 00:22:02,450 --> 00:22:05,219 JAHNINE: approach to our work, what does that mean? 478 00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:06,889 JAHNINE: What's the impact of that? 479 00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:10,069 JAHNINE: We focus so much on the good 480 00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:13,189 JAHNINE: intention of everything that we do, or not wanting 481 00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:15,529 JAHNINE: to get it wrong, or being really concerned about 482 00:22:15,530 --> 00:22:17,359 JAHNINE: saying the wrong thing and language - and yes, 483 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:19,159 JAHNINE: let's acknowledge that, let's acknowledge and 484 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,369 JAHNINE: support professionals to hold 485 00:22:22,370 --> 00:22:24,799 JAHNINE: space where they can feel bold and courageous to 486 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,509 JAHNINE: say, 'do you know what, I'm worried about saying 487 00:22:26,510 --> 00:22:28,519 JAHNINE: this word because am I going to be accused of this? 488 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,619 JAHNINE: I don't know what if I say this? Is this wrong?' 489 00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:33,409 JAHNINE: OK, let's have that conversation - but let that not 490 00:22:33,410 --> 00:22:35,689 JAHNINE: overtake the focus and the importance of 491 00:22:35,690 --> 00:22:37,369 JAHNINE: acknowledging impact. 492 00:22:37,370 --> 00:22:39,919 SPEAKER: Now, when we focus on impact, let's think about if 493 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,199 SPEAKER: we do not take intersectional approaches to the 494 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,359 SPEAKER: work we do, what is the impact? 495 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:46,879 SPEAKER: What does that mean? Picking up on your point Ineke 496 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,129 SPEAKER: around my work around Black girls and child sexual 497 00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:52,369 SPEAKER: abuse, something which always 498 00:22:52,370 --> 00:22:54,529 SPEAKER: stands out for me is that one of the participants 499 00:22:54,530 --> 00:22:56,269 SPEAKER: said, 'well, who's protecting us? 500 00:22:56,270 --> 00:22:57,739 SPEAKER: Who is protecting us?'. 501 00:22:57,740 --> 00:23:00,739 SPEAKER: And that impact, that feeling of, no one is seeing 502 00:23:00,740 --> 00:23:02,075 SPEAKER: us. No one's seeing our experiences. 503 00:23:02,076 --> 00:23:05,299 SPEAKER: Because services continue 504 00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:08,779 SPEAKER: to provide this universal approach or services, 505 00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:11,782 SPEAKER: because of the lack of development or 506 00:23:11,783 --> 00:23:13,489 SPEAKER: opportunities that professionals have to ignore and 507 00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:16,219 SPEAKER: explore their bias, they're just seeing us as being 508 00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:17,760 SPEAKER: angry and aggressive. They're not 509 00:23:19,910 --> 00:23:21,679 SPEAKER: seeing our innocence, our vulnerability. No one is 510 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,589 SPEAKER: seeing that. So if we do not take intersectional 511 00:23:24,590 --> 00:23:27,169 SPEAKER: approaches to our work, we need to be talking. 512 00:23:27,170 --> 00:23:29,989 SPEAKER: We need to be holding ourselves accountable to say, 513 00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:31,759 SPEAKER: well, what does that mean then in terms of the 514 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,939 SPEAKER: impact? Does that mean that we have young people, 515 00:23:34,940 --> 00:23:37,189 SPEAKER: children and young people's experiences, being 516 00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:39,469 SPEAKER: disregarded, dismissed, erased? 517 00:23:39,470 --> 00:23:41,389 SPEAKER: Because that is the impact. 518 00:23:41,390 --> 00:23:44,419 SPEAKER: So we can talk about intersectionality in terms of 519 00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:46,639 SPEAKER: why it's important or buy in. 520 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,639 SPEAKER: But we also need to talk about when we don't 521 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,699 SPEAKER: buy into it, what does that mean to the children 522 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:54,680 SPEAKER: and young people we're supposed to be safeguarding? 523 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,026 INEKE: Exacly. And it's about what Nick was saying earlier, 524 00:23:58,027 --> 00:24:01,099 INEKE: it's not incumbent on them to explain 525 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:03,859 INEKE: that to us. Because a lot of the kids that we're 526 00:24:03,860 --> 00:24:06,289 INEKE: working with, in terms of safeguarding, are surviving 527 00:24:06,290 --> 00:24:07,759 INEKE: as best as they can. 528 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:08,760 INEKE: So it's our job 529 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:13,459 INEKE: to give them that voice. 530 00:24:13,460 --> 00:24:16,399 INEKE: I think that's the only way that we're able to build 531 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,399 INEKE: that trust. Because in terms of 532 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,099 INEKE: systemic oppression that's been happening over years 533 00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:24,019 INEKE: and years and years and the statistics from 534 00:24:24,020 --> 00:24:26,869 INEKE: government websites will show you in terms of, you 535 00:24:26,870 --> 00:24:30,229 INEKE: know, incarceration and the school to prison 536 00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:33,229 INEKE: pipeline and all that stuff has been 537 00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:34,849 INEKE: around. Kids know this. 538 00:24:34,850 --> 00:24:37,309 INEKE: They know this. That's the life that they're living. 539 00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,279 INEKE: So it's up to us to break down those barriers that 540 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,529 INEKE: they've had to create for themselves in order to 541 00:24:42,530 --> 00:24:43,530 INEKE: survive. 542 00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:46,068 NICK: I really like the point you made there. 543 00:24:48,110 --> 00:24:51,259 NICK: It really resonates with me, 'the school to prison 544 00:24:51,260 --> 00:24:55,039 NICK: pipeline'. And I think if we had a more intersectional 545 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,069 NICK: approach to how we understand trauma, 546 00:24:58,070 --> 00:25:01,729 NICK: how young people might manifest their distress, 547 00:25:01,730 --> 00:25:05,419 NICK: and we actually started to think around 548 00:25:05,420 --> 00:25:08,539 NICK: tropes and some of the categories that we apply 549 00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:11,299 NICK: to some young people and how it can include and 550 00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:13,999 NICK: exclude in people. If we think of trauma responses 551 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,797 NICK: around boundaries, 552 00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:21,829 NICK: emotional regulation, aggression, 553 00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:24,829 NICK: daydreaming or disassociation, and we think 554 00:25:24,830 --> 00:25:27,979 NICK: about how we might apply innocence 555 00:25:27,980 --> 00:25:30,379 NICK: or vulnerability to some groups of young people and 556 00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:33,139 NICK: not others, and what we can see in our alternative 557 00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:36,229 NICK: education provisions, are often 558 00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:38,779 NICK: whole groups of people, often males. 559 00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:41,959 NICK: There's an overrepresentation within 560 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,699 NICK: our YOS (Youth Offending Service) and alternative 561 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:46,279 NICK: education systems of people from ethnically 562 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,889 NICK: minoritised backgrounds. 563 00:25:48,890 --> 00:25:51,109 NICK: And I wonder if we had an intersectional of 564 00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:54,079 NICK: understanding of how trauma manifests - both trauma 565 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,974 NICK: in the home, and outside of the home, 566 00:25:55,975 --> 00:25:59,389 NICK: intergenerational trauma, communal trauma - would 567 00:25:59,390 --> 00:26:01,969 NICK: we have a more therapeutic approach, rather than this 568 00:26:01,970 --> 00:26:05,119 NICK: punitive and managed approach to how we work with 569 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,389 NICK: some of our young people, particularly 570 00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:11,659 NICK: boys, where class, ethnicity 571 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:15,049 NICK: and gender and age intersects? 572 00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:16,819 JAHNINE: 100 percent. I agree. 573 00:26:16,820 --> 00:26:18,184 JAHNINE: And I think it makes me... as 574 00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:25,749 JAHNINE: I'm saying this, I feel the discomfort of we're 575 00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:28,099 JAHNINE: in safeguarding practise, and ultimately our work 576 00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:30,649 JAHNINE: is to ensure that we are safeguarding and 577 00:26:30,650 --> 00:26:33,979 JAHNINE: protecting children and young people, 578 00:26:33,980 --> 00:26:36,109 JAHNINE: but do we always do that? 579 00:26:36,110 --> 00:26:40,129 JAHNINE: Do we have a perspective 580 00:26:40,130 --> 00:26:43,759 JAHNINE: or a perception of a deserving and undeserving 581 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,250 JAHNINE: victim? And who does that look like? 582 00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:50,839 JAHNINE: And we have to own that. 583 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,509 JAHNINE: We have to own that. And I think, in an ideal 584 00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:55,609 JAHNINE: world, you want to say, well, you know, we're doing 585 00:26:55,610 --> 00:26:57,319 JAHNINE: what we can. Yes, we know that there are the 586 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,019 JAHNINE: background challenges which continue to be there in 587 00:27:00,020 --> 00:27:01,253 JAHNINE: terms of high case loads and burnout. 588 00:27:02,630 --> 00:27:05,449 JAHNINE: There is a context which we mustn't 589 00:27:06,770 --> 00:27:08,126 JAHNINE: disregard, but, oppression, 590 00:27:10,590 --> 00:27:11,930 JAHNINE: discrimination exists. 591 00:27:11,931 --> 00:27:14,069 JAHNINE: It exists in our society. 592 00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:16,559 JAHNINE: Racism is real. Something me and Nick always say in 593 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,449 JAHNINE: any learning and development workshop we go in, 594 00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:21,989 JAHNINE: we're like, 'look, we're not here to to decide 595 00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:25,169 JAHNINE: or to discuss if racism, as an example, is a real 596 00:27:25,170 --> 00:27:27,389 JAHNINE: thing. We know it is. So we're not going to 597 00:27:27,390 --> 00:27:29,999 JAHNINE: converse on that. What we're going to now look at 598 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,789 JAHNINE: is what does that mean in terms of your practice? 599 00:27:32,790 --> 00:27:34,679 JAHNINE: What does that mean in terms of the individual 600 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,679 JAHNINE: responsibility that you take in terms of working 601 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,019 JAHNINE: with young people from ethnic minoritised 602 00:27:40,020 --> 00:27:42,359 JAHNINE: communities? What does that mean on a systemic 603 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,219 JAHNINE: level?' and these are the things we have to 604 00:27:44,220 --> 00:27:46,679 JAHNINE: consider when we think about intersectionality. 605 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,889 JAHNINE: We are inviting professionals, as I said, 606 00:27:49,890 --> 00:27:53,099 JAHNINE: to step outside of their own 607 00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:55,739 JAHNINE: experiences in terms of, 'well, this is the work we 608 00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:57,749 JAHNINE: do, we work with young people. 609 00:27:57,750 --> 00:28:00,719 JAHNINE: We might have a service for young boys'. 610 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,729 JAHNINE: That's great. But again, if you're still just 611 00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:04,769 JAHNINE: saying a service for boys, and you're not thinking 612 00:28:04,770 --> 00:28:07,649 JAHNINE: about those intersections, so touching on the point 613 00:28:07,650 --> 00:28:10,349 JAHNINE: school to prison pipeline, well then, look at that 614 00:28:10,350 --> 00:28:12,119 JAHNINE: from an intersectional perspective. 615 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,189 JAHNINE: Let's talk about why we still have Black British 616 00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:17,369 JAHNINE: Caribbean boys still three times more likely 617 00:28:17,370 --> 00:28:19,829 JAHNINE: to be permanently excluded than their peers. 618 00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:22,229 JAHNINE: Let's look at why Gypsy-Roma Traveller boys are 619 00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:25,199 JAHNINE: still more likely to be temporary excluded than 620 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,929 JAHNINE: their other peers. Let's talk about attainment in 621 00:28:27,930 --> 00:28:30,699 JAHNINE: terms of white working class boys and why that 622 00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:31,679 JAHNINE: still playing out. 623 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,739 SPEAKER: So we can take an intersectional approach to 624 00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:37,529 SPEAKER: really allow us to see between the lines rather 625 00:28:37,530 --> 00:28:40,409 SPEAKER: than just saying, 'well, we know in education we 626 00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:43,709 SPEAKER: have this issue over here' or 'we know that 627 00:28:43,710 --> 00:28:45,779 SPEAKER: boys are more likely to experience punitive 628 00:28:45,780 --> 00:28:48,423 SPEAKER: responses', I would say, well, actually, let's look 629 00:28:48,424 --> 00:28:51,119 SPEAKER: at girls. Let's look at girls from minoritised and 630 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,279 SPEAKER: marginalised backgrounds, because I think you see 631 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,899 SPEAKER: something similar playing out. 632 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:57,989 SPEAKER: When I think about my research, I see Black 633 00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:59,369 SPEAKER: girls saying, 'well, actually we're getting 634 00:28:59,370 --> 00:29:01,549 SPEAKER: punitive responses because no one is seeing us. 635 00:29:01,550 --> 00:29:03,569 SPEAKER: We're being criminalised because no one is 636 00:29:03,570 --> 00:29:06,029 SPEAKER: understanding our trauma, because everyone is 637 00:29:06,030 --> 00:29:08,362 SPEAKER: responding to what they think our trauma is, or 638 00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:12,479 SPEAKER: seeing our trauma as an issue and pathologising our 639 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,029 SPEAKER: experiences, rather than just acknowledging that we 640 00:29:15,030 --> 00:29:17,279 SPEAKER: are children who have experienced abuse'. 641 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,279 SPEAKER: So, intersectionality is broad and 642 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,739 SPEAKER: encompassing. But ultimately, I would say it allows 643 00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:26,729 SPEAKER: you just to explore bias, identity, positionality 644 00:29:26,730 --> 00:29:28,049 SPEAKER: and inequality. 645 00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:31,439 INEKE: How can we support practitioners to 646 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,349 INEKE: start thinking more around intersectionality? 647 00:29:34,350 --> 00:29:35,879 INEKE: What would you advise? 648 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,869 JAHNINE: So I guess there are a number of things. 649 00:29:37,870 --> 00:29:40,169 JAHNINE: First, educate yourselves. 650 00:29:40,170 --> 00:29:41,999 JAHNINE: There's so much resources. 651 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,599 JAHNINE: You just type in intersectionality and you'll get a 652 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,462 JAHNINE: plethora of resource. 653 00:29:47,463 --> 00:29:50,459 JAHNINE: And I guess that leads to my first point, that 654 00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:52,559 JAHNINE: when we think about intersectionality it's so 655 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,289 JAHNINE: important that we remember its origins, so that we 656 00:29:55,290 --> 00:29:58,409 JAHNINE: don't possibly erase or 657 00:29:58,410 --> 00:30:01,919 JAHNINE: dismiss the experiences of Black women and girls, 658 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,339 JAHNINE: that by implying intersectionality, again, allows 659 00:30:05,340 --> 00:30:08,489 JAHNINE: us to be really explorative and curious. 660 00:30:08,490 --> 00:30:10,739 JAHNINE: But we need to also acknowledge that Black women 661 00:30:10,740 --> 00:30:13,289 JAHNINE: and girls still bear the brunt of sexist, racist 662 00:30:13,290 --> 00:30:15,629 JAHNINE: and classist opressions. And we must not forget 663 00:30:15,630 --> 00:30:18,809 JAHNINE: that. Because those experiences still exist today. 664 00:30:18,810 --> 00:30:21,629 JAHNINE: So we must ensure that as we amplify other 665 00:30:21,630 --> 00:30:25,049 JAHNINE: experiences, we always remember to also 666 00:30:25,050 --> 00:30:26,669 JAHNINE: amplify those too. 667 00:30:26,670 --> 00:30:28,199 SPEAKER: And let's take action. 668 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,109 SPEAKER: Thinking about the work that you do, use those 669 00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:33,629 SPEAKER: reflective spaces - whether that's in supervision, 670 00:30:33,630 --> 00:30:36,319 SPEAKER: whether it's group supervision - to really discuss 671 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,329 SPEAKER: them and think about how intersectionality can 672 00:30:39,330 --> 00:30:41,549 SPEAKER: strengthen your work. Or if you're already applying 673 00:30:41,550 --> 00:30:44,969 SPEAKER: it to your work, to be able to explore how 674 00:30:44,970 --> 00:30:47,669 SPEAKER: it's making an impact. So you want to do some dip 675 00:30:47,670 --> 00:30:50,399 SPEAKER: sampling looking at some of your various different 676 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,439 SPEAKER: case files, thinking about the groups of young 677 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,319 SPEAKER: people you work with and explore how often identity 678 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,319 SPEAKER: is explored in your discussions and in your 679 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,379 SPEAKER: intervention. And again, think about how you 680 00:31:01,380 --> 00:31:04,259 SPEAKER: apply your interventions and the work that you do 681 00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:07,379 SPEAKER: and how often you explore your implicit and 682 00:31:07,380 --> 00:31:09,857 SPEAKER: explicit biases. How do they play out in your work? 683 00:31:09,858 --> 00:31:12,449 SPEAKER: Not just with the young people you support, but 684 00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:14,999 SPEAKER: also with your colleagues as well. 685 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,039 SPEAKER: But in order to do that, you must take 686 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,859 SPEAKER: responsibility. We have to be responsible for our 687 00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:22,349 SPEAKER: own practice. Yes, we are in a system, and let's 688 00:31:22,350 --> 00:31:25,409 SPEAKER: think about those systemic barriers and 689 00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:28,199 SPEAKER: challenges, but we also need to think about us as 690 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,259 SPEAKER: individuals. What can we be doing differently? 691 00:31:31,260 --> 00:31:33,719 SPEAKER: How often do we reflect with you and challenge what 692 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,869 SPEAKER: we read? The research which we look at, who 693 00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:38,999 SPEAKER: that research is for? Who the dominant voice and 694 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,729 SPEAKER: experiences are and therefore, again, how does that 695 00:31:41,730 --> 00:31:44,279 SPEAKER: possibly influence how we understand other 696 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,949 SPEAKER: experiences which might differ outside of those 697 00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:49,049 SPEAKER: spaces? And again, question, how can 698 00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:52,469 SPEAKER: intersectionality really help inform your work? 699 00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:55,529 SPEAKER: Most importantly, speak to young 700 00:31:55,530 --> 00:31:58,061 SPEAKER: people and families. Hear directly from them. 701 00:31:58,062 --> 00:31:59,399 SPEAKER: Be brave. Be bold. 702 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,979 SPEAKER: Be courageous to ask questions about their 703 00:32:01,980 --> 00:32:05,009 SPEAKER: identity, their experience, celebrate that. 704 00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:08,069 SPEAKER: Explore how young people experience 705 00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:10,859 SPEAKER: the world. Shape your interventions, the work you 706 00:32:10,860 --> 00:32:13,109 SPEAKER: do around that. Ensure that you're really being 707 00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:15,629 SPEAKER: strengths-based and person-centred, by not only 708 00:32:15,630 --> 00:32:18,479 SPEAKER: just exploring perceptions of behaviour or the 709 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,961 SPEAKER: behaviour we feel young people may be presenting - 710 00:32:20,962 --> 00:32:24,419 SPEAKER: especially those who are minoritised or from 711 00:32:24,420 --> 00:32:26,609 SPEAKER: marginalised backgrounds where we know they're at a 712 00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:29,939 SPEAKER: heightened risk of experiencing those negative 713 00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:33,179 SPEAKER: stereotypes. How do we ensure that we reflect 714 00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:36,659 SPEAKER: on behaviour as an indicator of something else - of 715 00:32:36,660 --> 00:32:39,929 SPEAKER: possible trauma - rather than assuming it's 716 00:32:39,930 --> 00:32:42,959 SPEAKER: just a negative stereotype based on who 717 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,789 SPEAKER: we think those people are. 718 00:32:44,790 --> 00:32:47,279 SPEAKER: Let's hear directly from young people and let that 719 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,050 SPEAKER: guide and shape the work that we do.