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Corry: What are we starting with this week?

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Luke: A wee review.
C: Yeah!

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L: Apple supremacy.

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C: This one is from last year. It 
says: “You just have to listen”.

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It's five stars. This may 
be the world's best podcast,

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and I'm 100% sure Corry reads my mind. 
Every time I'm thinking about something

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interesting next week it's the topic of 
the podcast. Don't snooze, start listening.

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L: Don't snooze. Don't you dare snooze.

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C: It's a tough word to say, 
but wait, first hold on.

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I just need to read…

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L: Are you snoozing?
C: I'm reading a mind.

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I'm reading someone's mind right now, 
and I've got the topic for this week.

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I've read their mind and I've taken the topic.

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L: Let's start the show.

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C: No, no, no, no, no.

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We have a question to start first

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Jamp: We always have a question.

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C: Yeah, I forgot. It was a test, actually.

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So the question this week is:

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Are you an empath?

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Let us know in the Youtube comments.

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If you're listening on Spotify, 
or Apple, or anywhere else,

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head to Youtube, get into the comments, 
and tell us are you an empath? Yes or No.

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Start the show–

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L: It's going to be an episode where you [ ]
on the idea of people being empaths.

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C: Let's start the show!

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Hello and welcome to Sci Guys.

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The show where we talk about the crazy, weird 
and wonderful stories from the science world.

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I'm Corry and as always I'm joined 
by my co-host Jamp and Luke Cutforth.

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L: Hello.
J: Hi, howdy.

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C: This week we're talking about rodent rescues.

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L: Rodent rescues?

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C: We often put human 
characteristics on animals, don't we?

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Human emotions, human sort of actions.

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We like to say. This dog is doing something: 
“Oh, the dog feels sorry for you”.

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J: Anthropomorphization.

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C: Yes.
L: Yeah.

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J: That word that I said flawlessly.

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C: Yeah. Do you want to try it again?

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J: Anthropomorphizing.

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Anthropomorphizing.

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C: Obviously, it's hard…

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Sorry, that was really…

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J: I came in less confident the second time.

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C: Sometimes, it's really hard to tell 
when we're projecting onto animals

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and when it's actually an animal doing a thing.

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It's hard to tell what's going on inside 
the noggin of a little creature. So that's–

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L: Usually very little, in my experience.

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C: Not very little is going on in your noggin.

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I disagree. Too much is going 
on your noggin if anything.

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L: It's somewhere in between the two.

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Or it fluctuates between those two extremes.

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Too little or too much.

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C: And that's the trick, actually. 
If you're watching this podcast,

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which I would absolutely recommend.

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I don't know I'm looking to the camera,

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when I say I would recommend watching 
this podcast, but I'm gonna do it.

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When you watch this podcast you 
get to see Luke spacing out,

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and you have to decide whether it's because too 
much is going on or too little it’s going on…

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Prosocial behavior and empathy.

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Do either of you know what prosocial behavior and

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empathy are? Can you give me 
a quick definition of either?

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J: When you're a pro, being social.

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L: Is it behavior that promotes 
a sort of group success?

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C: Not quite. I mean that's kind of more–

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J: Altruism.
C: That's altruism, isn't it?

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That's more kind of on the... Well, no.

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How about I explain what they 
are, and then instead of saying

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what they're not, it's probably a lot easier…

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L: We could guess loads of times, and then you 
could say whether they're not those things,

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and eventually, we'll find out what they are.

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C: Why don't we change what the podcast is.

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Screw this whole science 
thing. Let's get rid of that.

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Let's just, for the rest of time, you say things,

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and I'll tell you whether they are or 
not the thing that I'm thinking about.

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L: Right.
C: That's the podcast.

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L: Sounds like a load of fun.
C: That sounds like a lot of fun.

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OK, let's start now.

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What is prosocial behavior?

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J: It's not antisocial behavior.
C: That's right.

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L: Is it social behavior, but you're really 
good, so you're a professional at it.

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J: You get paid for it.

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L: Yeah.
J: That's really pro.

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L: Is that right?
C: It's not.

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How about I just tell you what it is?
I feel like this podcast has run its course–

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L: Is it what we do when we are social 
media people, we do it as our job?

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We're prosocial and our 
behavior is prosocial behavior?

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C: Sure, OK.

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Do you wanna know what the actual definition is?

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J: Yes, please.
L. So that's wrong?

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J: Yes.
C: Yes Luke, it’s wrong.

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L: Should it be more clear.

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C: Prosocial behavior. The definition 
I have sitting right in front of me,

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and I'll quote it word for word is:

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Any action that benefits another organism 
regardless of intent or motivation.

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L: I feel like that's what I said, to begin with.

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C: You said that it sort of increases the sort of…

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I can't remember the exact word.

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Basically, you said makes it 
better for the group. That's wrong.

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L: Is it wrong? OK.

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C: Yeah. That is wrong.
L: OK

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C: That's why I said that
L: Cool.

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It's any action that benefits another 
organism, regardless of intent or motivation.

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When you say the group, that 
benefits everyone, it's just–

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J: It could be anyone, other living thing.

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C: Any organism. It doesn't need to be 
the same organism as you. For example–

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J: Petting a dog on the 
head is prosocial behavior.

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C: Yeah, for example, if I pet a dog on the head 
and the dog loved it, that's prosocial behavior.

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J: Nice one.

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C: Whether I'm doing it to get 
enjoyment from myself or not.

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Whether I'm petting the dog in the head 
just out of the goodness of my heart,

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or because I really love.

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Gosh, I love petting them, dogs on their heads.

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It's all prosocial behavior.

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L: I have a specific question.

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If you pet the dog on the 
head, and the dog enjoys it,

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then the dog did enjoy it, but it 
doesn't benefit the organism in any way.

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The organism isn't then more likely to 
survive, or more likely to reproduce,

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because you passed it on the head, 
unless in some very weird roundabout

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way it actually is because happiness 
makes it more bold or something.

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C: I disagree in that…

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OK, so for example. If I was to lock 
you in a room by yourself forever,

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you'd probably get on fine, but if I was to lock 
a normal person on their own in a room forever,

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they probably wouldn't enjoy it very much.

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L: And then if you came in and you 
patted me on the head, then I'd be happy.

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C: Yeah, they'd be happy…

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And your fitness decreases, to an extent.

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Your mental fitness decreases to 
an extent, when you're isolated.

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When you don't have any social 
contact, and the same goes for dogs.

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They're social animals, they need social 
contact, and pet them on the head.

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It's really quite good for him.

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L: That's really interesting, 
thank you. I'm gonna pat some dogs.

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J: Yeah, moral of the story, go pet a dog.

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L: Otherwise you're basically trapping 
them in a room on their own forever.

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Is that the moral of the story?

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If you don't pat dogs, you're 
putting them in isolation.

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C: You know what? I'm going to move on because 
I don't want to touch that with a 10-foot pool.

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J: They might feel like they're in isolation.

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C: Some examples of prosocial behavior, and 
again, I'm just going to read this verbatim.

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“Sharing, comforting, cooperating, 
helping, rescuing and donating”.

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Those are all positive behaviors that help 
others, and again, I need to be clear.

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Prosocial behavior is, basically, a sort 
of positive action to another organism,

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an action that benefits another organism, 
and it doesn't matter what the intent is.

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Whether it's a selfish intent, or 
whether it's a selfless intent.

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Anything that is beneficial to another 
organism that one organism does,

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that is prosocial behavior.

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Altruism is something that's motivated 
by a sort of genuine desire to

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benefit something else, or someone else.

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That's altruism. When you're thinking they're:

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“I want to help Luke out. I'm going to do this”.

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L: Thank you.
C: That's altruism.

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L: Cool.
J: Comes with the intent.

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C: Yeah, and that's without 
any expectation of anything.

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If I say: “You know what? Luke 
seems like Luke needs a phone,

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and I'm just gonna give Luke a phone 
and then stop speaking to him forever”.

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L: Oh, thank you.
C: There you go…

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Nothing to me, because I enjoy 
speaking to Luke. I like it.

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Surprisingly, I do.

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If I was to decide: “Here's the phone, 
and I'm going to stop seeing you forever”.

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I'm not getting anything out of that.

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If anything, I'm losing.
L: I'm getting two things out of it.

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C: Thanks Luke.

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00:08:06,613 --> 00:08:11,840
C: Maybe a bit nicer, maybe you want to be a 
bit nicer to the guy that's giving you a phone.

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L: Well, you've not done it yet.

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C: Well, maybe I won't do it at all. 
Maybe I'm not an altruistic person.

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You understand what's going on here.

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Prosocial behavior is just 
to behave to someone else.

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And empathy.

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Empathy is this sort of…

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What do you think empathy is?

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L: The ability to sort of create emotions

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somebody else's feeling that 
you aren't necessarily feeling…

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You could empathize with somebody's

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loss, and you actually get a genuine feeling 
of loss, even though you haven't lost anything.

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C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Empathy is this sort of, yes, simulated feeling of 
someone else, or basically feeling someone else's

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feelings, and that is one of the things that 
motivates people towards prosocial behavior.

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If I see Jamp looking all sad, 
because someone ate Jamp's plums,

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and I would see Jamp and I'd have a lot 
of plums myself and I would feel bad,

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00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,320
and the only thing I could do to stop that 
bad feeling is to give Jamp some plums.

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00:09:10,275 --> 00:09:12,040
J: You have some plums?
C: I actually do have plums downstairs.

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L: So in that sense, you're actually, to a certain 
extent, selfishly motivated towards prosocial

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behavior, by an empathy response, because 
actually you don't want to feel the bad thing.

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C: Yeah, to an extent, yeah. Absolutely.

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Or because you want to feel a good thing.

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It can feel good to do something 
nice for someone else, and

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there's a sort of empathetic thing there.

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Because empathy doesn't necessarily 
need to be always negative.

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Empathy could be a positive thing as well.

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00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,120
We understand what empathy is? We 
understand what prosocial behavior is?

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L: Yep.
C: Good.

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00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,400
So let's jump into the experiment.

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Now, I've got this one experiment 
that you might have heard of.

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00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,560
It's been popping up on Twitter quite 
a bit, and it's to do with rats.

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00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,200
Do you have any guess what this experiment is?

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00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,800
L: Yes… Well, I did see a thing about, basically,

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00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:03,360
an experiment that was if a rat can help 
another rat get out of something?

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00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:04,480
C: Yeah, OK, cool.

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00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,440
Let's not go any further on that, because 
I've got the whole experiment laid out.

200
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,760
J: It's the whole episode.
C: It's the whole episode.

201
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:10,880
There is nothing else to this…

202
00:10:14,555 --> 00:10:15,750
Before you say another word!

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00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:18,560
This is an experiment.

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00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,960
The sort of title of the experiment, 
the title of the paper is:

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00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,720
“Empathy and pro-social behavior in rats.”

206
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,800
It was published in 2011 in Science…

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00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,680
It kind of talks about how human 
prosocial behavior is driven by empathy,

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00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:38,960
but it's unclear whether that is present 
in other animals, particularly mammals,

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00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,080
like non-human primates and other mammals.

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00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,920
Obviously, a rat model is something 
that's very easy to study.

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00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,880
We know a lot about rats 
compared to many other animals.

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00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,040
We can simulate a sort of depression in rats.

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00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:52,480
We can do a lot with rats.

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00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,520
They're very easy to work with, so 
we thought: “Why not look at rats?”

215
00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:02,960
Essentially, the study was to look to see 
if a rat would want to help another rat out,

216
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:06,000
even if there was no benefit to itself.

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If it would empathetically be driven to do 
something for another rat, which we'll get to it.

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00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,560
It's a little less cut and dry than 
you might think, but personally,

219
00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:16,560
having had rats, I would say…

220
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:17,920
I'm on the fence.

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00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,240
L: Are they bastards?
C: Yes, a little bit.

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00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:24,640
I mean, one literally yes, because 
their parents aren't married, and two…

223
00:11:26,374 --> 00:11:28,800
L: You don't know that.
J: You mean, some of them have married parents.

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00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:29,760
C: Well, I checked.

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00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,160
None of them have, I'm sure none of the rats 
have married parents, but they're still–

226
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,880
J: They’re all bastards.
C: Exactly, yeah, absolutely.

227
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,120
It's just an ingrained 
thing about being, but also…

228
00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:47,360
I mean, I guess the rats that I've had never had 
to want for anything, and so they had no reason

229
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:52,160
not to steal from each other and stand on each 
other's heads, and generally just be not there–

230
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,400
L: Just like us when we're not recording Sci Guys.

231
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,680
C: Absolutely. Stealing and 
standing, that's our thing.

232
00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:01,680
But also if you picked one of them up 
and they didn't want to be picked up,

233
00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:04,960
the other two would kind of 
come and see what was going on.

234
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,520
They'd be like: “Hey, don't do that,

235
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,640
maybe”, but again they're rats, they're 
tiny. There's nothing they can do.

236
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,640
J: Except flip you off, the tiny rat.

237
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,080
C: They can't even do that, their fingers are 
too small. You wouldn't even be able to see it…

238
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:25,120
So this is built on research. This study is 
built on research into rats and social contagion.

239
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,440
Essentially, this is a study called, I think

240
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,960
“Emotional reactions of rats to 
the pain of others” from 1959.

241
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:43,200
Essentially, they gave some rats electric 
shocks and wanted to see what happened

242
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:48,160
to the other rats, if they gave some 
rats electric shocks, specifically…

243
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:50,480
I'm pretty sure…

244
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,600
I think this is a study wherein they had 
rats press a sort of button or whatever to

245
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,480
get some snacks, and it also gave 
the other rats an electric shock.

246
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:04,720
Yeah, when you press the button.

247
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,840
L: God. There's some flipping psychopaths 
working in the science fields.

248
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:09,400
C: Obviously–

249
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,360
L: Let's set up a game where, but 
it's for science, it's for science,

250
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,240
but I'm going to feed one rat while I was 
torturing another one and let them see it.

251
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:17,920
C: Well, no you're not feeding the rat…

252
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,520
Sorry, you're not feeding or torturing the rat.

253
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,280
The rat gets to press its own button 
to shock another rat and feed itself.

254
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,400
And the idea is would they want 
to shock the other rat less.

255
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:33,120
Basically, rats…

256
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,240
Rats will shock other rats less.

257
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,240
And actually also, there are…

258
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,280
They also looked at signs of 
sort of “depression” in rats.

259
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,680
I think it was sort of like learned 
helplessness that sort of thing, and

260
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:53,840
there were lower signs of that in rats that were 
sort of shocking other rats, if that makes sense.

261
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,840
L: Hang on there was lower signs of depression…

262
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,320
C: No, sorry. There were lower…

263
00:13:58,320 --> 00:13:59,200
Oh, wait hold on. Let me–

264
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,219
L: How do you kill depression? 
Electrocute your friends.

265
00:14:04,075 --> 00:14:07,840
C: Rats basically, felt better when there 
weren't rats around them being shocked.

266
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,600
Now, there are some…

267
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,080
L: I also would feel better if there 
wasn't rats around me getting shocked.

268
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,560
C: Yeah, I know. A surprised rat, 
there's nothing worse than that. No.

269
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:19,440
Shocked.
L: Yeah.

270
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,520
I understood the joke, I just
 didn't appreciate it.

271
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,389
J: Insensitive.

272
00:14:27,633 --> 00:14:28,400
C: It was over.

273
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,800
L: Corry is quite enjoying torturing us, and 
maybe he'll get some food for himself too.

274
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,040
C: It was 63 years ago this study. Those 
rats would be long dead now anyway.

275
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:38,640
I don't think it matters 
how much they were shocked.

276
00:14:39,715 --> 00:14:42,562
L: I don’t know man. That's pretty poor…

277
00:14:43,607 --> 00:14:45,720
That's a pretty poor opinion you’ve got there.

278
00:14:46,436 --> 00:14:49,760
L: [...]

279
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:50,640
so it doesn't matter.

280
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,800
C: I mean, in a hundred years or 
something I don't think it's worth:

281
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,560
“Oh, was Corry shocked by 
Luke?” Doesn't matter that much.

282
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,040
Shocked me, in a hundred years but I'm dead.

283
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:03,859
J: He'll also be dead.

284
00:15:04,516 --> 00:15:06,240
C: Exactly, so I've got nothing to worry about.

285
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,480
That is the kind of the background of this.

286
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,400
They were trying to see if 
they're empathy in rats.

287
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,080
So they put rats together in pairs for 
two weeks, before they started testing.

288
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,240
You got them getting acclimated 
to each other, becoming little–

289
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,320
J: To make them friends before 
you make them shock each other.

290
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,280
L: Of course.

291
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,240
C: This isn't the shock experiment. 
This is the 2011 experiment.

292
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:30,880
J: This is a separate thing.

293
00:15:31,596 --> 00:15:34,800
C: I mean, although, I hope they did make 
them friends because they shot each other.

294
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,200
One, for scientific integrity. Not because 
I want to see rat friends shock each other.

295
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:39,200
J: It makes it sadder.

296
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,560
C: It does make it a little sadder,

297
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,640
but it means the results are a little bit 
more robust, and that's all that matters.

298
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,960
J: It's not only the rat getting 
hurt it's also the friendship.

299
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,552
C: Jesus. Wow, you made the–

300
00:15:50,552 --> 00:15:52,480
J: Many things died.
C: The rats didn't die.

301
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:53,280
They were shocked, not like–

302
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:54,960
L: They did eventually, 
and you've made that clear.

303
00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,040
J: It doesn't matter if they didn't die, Corry.

304
00:16:02,644 --> 00:16:06,720
C: What I mean is that I'm fairly sure they 
did not die from the shocks in the experiment,

305
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,800
I can't say for certain, I'm just fairly sure.

306
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,480
In the 2011 experiment, the 
empathetic rat experiment.

307
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:21,840
They put the rats together for two weeks before 
they started the tests, and in each session,

308
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,000
they had a rat, and they put them in (and 
this is the free rat) they put the rat in

309
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:32,640
a sort of little space, a little area, an arena, 
it says in the paper, and it has a center…

310
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,045
In the center of the little…

311
00:16:35,045 --> 00:16:37,157
L: Gladiators!
J: Fight!

312
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:41,120
C: In the center of sort of an enclosure,

313
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,240
and in the center of the enclosure 
was this sort of little rat cage?

314
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,240
Rat restrainer?
L: Yeah.

315
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,228
C: Like a little tiny rat box.

316
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,040
In that restraint, I'm sure you can guess…

317
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,760
I'm sure you can guess, is a trapped rat.

318
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:58,960
L: No way.
C: Yeah.

319
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,040
L: In the rap restraint there is a rat?
C: Yeah.

320
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:02,160
L: Restrained?!
C: Yes.

321
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,600
L: Wow.
C: Incredible.

322
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,680
And the free rat has the 
power to free the trash rat.

323
00:17:08,546 --> 00:17:11,779
L: This is the worst game.
J: Really bad restraints.

324
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,600
For rat can get you out of the 
restraints, it's pretty bad–

325
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,920
L: But you're also a rat.

326
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,600
It's not like a rat can get me out of restraints.

327
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,440
C: This feels like “Saw”, but for rats.

328
00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:27,360
To get the other rat out, the free rat can

329
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:34,480
basically, tip over the door by forcing it 
open, usually, with its head, sort of thing.

330
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,600
So you can just kind of tip 
over the door with its head.

331
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,440
Obviously, you can't do that 
from inside the restraint,

332
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,360
but the free rat is able 
to do it from the outside.

333
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:44,960
They were sort of…

334
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,000
If the rat couldn't open the door, the 
experimenter would then open the door halfway,

335
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,440
which would let the trap rat out, and that…

336
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,440
Basically, they did that to 
stop the rats getting depressed.

337
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:00,320
It doesn't say that. It says…

338
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,880
It says: “Allowing the trap rat to escape 
and preventing learned helplessness”.

339
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,680
Stopping the rats from getting 
depressed, wich it's nice, that's good.

340
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,560
L: Out of interest, is there any 
way that they have ruled out?

341
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:21,040
Now obviously, I'm remembering your prosocial 
behavior definition is important here, because

342
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,400
this would be irrelevant to whether they have 
prosocial behavior, but whether they have empathy,

343
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:33,080
is for example, is the trap rat squeaking a lot, 
and the other rat could be finding that annoying?

344
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,080
C: We'll get there, we'll get 
there. That's a good, that's a ver…

345
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,800
I'm glad you brought that up. That's 
a very smart thing to bring up. So–

346
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,177
J: Shut up.

347
00:18:42,744 --> 00:18:45,600
L: Stop it.
J: Fine, I’ll get you out if you shut up.

348
00:18:47,749 --> 00:18:51,600
L: That would be prosocial behavior, 
because it does benefit the other rat.

349
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,080
It doesn't matter the intent, 
it's because I'm annoyed with you.

350
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,800
C: They repeat these sessions for 12 days.

351
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,200
Imagine being, by the way, the trapped rat, every 
day you wake up, and you're just trapped again,

352
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,600
and you've got your rat friend, and 
sometimes they're just not letting you out–

353
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,560
It's like what's that film with Tom 
Hanks? Where he wakes up the same day.

354
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:11,680
J: “Groundhog Day”.
L: Yeah, “Groundhog Day”.

355
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,400
C: That's not with Tom Hanks.
L: What?

356
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:15,040
J: I think it is–

357
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,040
L: No, no…

358
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,000
C: Is Bill Murray.
L: It is Bill Murray.

359
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,200
C: It's absolutely with Bill Murray.

360
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,280
L: I came from a universe 
in which it was Tom Hanks.

361
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:21,920
C: No, you didn't.

362
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,880
I don't think Tom Hanks has 
been in any time loop movie.

363
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,440
L: No, no, but I came from a different 
parallel universe in which Tom Hanks has been.

364
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:30,000
C: OK.

365
00:19:31,194 --> 00:19:33,600
J: If I watch “Forrest Gump” on repeat, 
then he is in a time loop movie.

366
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,040
L: That's true. You go in there Jamp. Good work.

367
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,280
Let's just keep pressing "start chapter again", 
"start chapter again", "start chapter again".

368
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:45,440
J: And then you let him do two chapters, 
and you're like: “Oh, progression”.

369
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,000
L: Just to edge him a little bit.
J: He's learning.

370
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,360
L: He thinks he's getting ahead…

371
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,000
And back to the start again, yeah.

372
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,600
C: Back to the rats, cool.

373
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,000
They also marked the three rats heads and recorded 
their movements to see what they were doing.

374
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:03,360
Let's see where they’re going sort of thing.

375
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,120
Where they were spending their time.

376
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,520
They also had a control, so they had 
free rats with empty restrainers,

377
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:20,080
and free rats with an unrestrained cage 
mate across, basically separated from them.

378
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,760
L: Did they have free rats with a 
trapped rat who is unable to be saved?

379
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,400
C: Jesus, Luke, no.

380
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,000
L: Well, I mean, that's a control?
C: No, it's not.

381
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,120
That's is…

382
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,640
OK, hold on. What is that controlling for?

383
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:42,496
L: Whether the free rat just likes 
pressing the door, near a restrained rat.

384
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:51,680
What I'm saying is…

385
00:20:53,226 --> 00:20:56,720
C: They kind of tested for 
that afterwards, so sure.

386
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,160
God damn, I don't like you today.

387
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:01,183
You're bugging me.

388
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,480
There's nothing worse than someone 
being silly, but also being–

389
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,280
L: Technically correct.
C: Yeah, like technically correct.

390
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:19,120
The free rat spent apparently 
more time near the restrainer, and

391
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,360
they moved faster than the control rats 
did, and the control rats obviously,

392
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,480
not having a trapped rat with them, 
that was the control basically.

393
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:34,080
Obviously, one set of controls had no 
restrained rat, had no rats anywhere

394
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:40,800
in the rest of the cage, and the 
other control rats had another rat,

395
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,800
but sort of separated them from them 
by a divide, but not trapped rat.

396
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,120
The control rats obviously weren't moving as 
quickly, and didn't spend as much time next

397
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:56,141
to the restrainer, so Luke, for you there, 
the rats didn't just like the restrainer.

398
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,880
It seems that they were at least trying to 
help the cage mate out of the restraint.

399
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,800
The reason behind it,
we'll get to that in a bit.

400
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:08,400
They also learned…

401
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,080
The rats learned to open the door better, 
and the sort of latency between them being

402
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,720
put in the enclosure, and them letting 
the sort of trapped out, decreased

403
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,760
as the experiment went on, which is pretty cool.

404
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:26,720
What you can infer from that, 
that they were intending to do it,

405
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,120
and they were basically learning 
how best to open the door.

406
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,160
I think the best way for them to do was 
to sort of nudge it with their head,

407
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,320
and I think by the end most 
of them ended up doing that.

408
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:38,800
Also interestingly…

409
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,960
They classed rats as openers, sort 
of by the end of the experiment.

410
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:50,320
If they were capable of doing it, sort 
of consistently and quickly, and well.

411
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:58,960
23 out of 30 of the rats, in the sort of 
the “trap rat experiments” were openers.

412
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,640
L: [...]
C: So 23 out of 30 of the free rats, that were–

413
00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:07,840
L: Seven real, mean rats.

414
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,080
C: There's 23 out of 30 that 
were classed as openers,

415
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,280
and in the control, there were only 5 
out of 40 that were classed as openers.

416
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,480
So there were 5 in the control that just bloody 
loved opening that thing, I'll tell you that–

417
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:23,880
L: Some of them got trapped themselves.

418
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,440
C: From what I know about 
rats, they like weird stuff.

419
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,120
One of the rats spit, two 
of the rats like to spit,

420
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:34,240
and one of them did not care 
for it. I didn't feed them spit.

421
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,480
L: I have literally, in this house, watched…

422
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:38,560
I can't remember with you or Noah,

423
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,800
lick your finger and go over to the rat, and 
the rat will enjoy licking your spit off…

424
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:45,760
How did you find that out?

425
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,600
C: I don’t know, ask Noah.
L: I will do.

426
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:48,560
C: And also you've…

427
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,480
I'm certainly fed the rat’s spit.
L: No, I didn't feed the rat’s spit.

428
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:52,560
C: You sure?
L: Yeah.

429
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,800
C: You can feed the rat’s spit if you want.

430
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,480
L: Thank you, well there's only one left so…

431
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:57,880
C: Yeah.
L: Does he like spit?

432
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,200
C: Yeah, he loves spit.
L: Great.

433
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,240
C: Honestly, I think that might 
be what's keeping him going.

434
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,640
L: You know what? I'm doing it after this episode.

435
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,117
C: Feeding a rat’s spit, yeah 
absolutely. The worst part is–

436
00:24:07,117 --> 00:24:08,240
J: I won’t be a part of any of this.

437
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,840
C: The worst part is when you've got your 
mouth open near them, and they quickly dive in,

438
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,006
and take out– 
J: Oh my God, a gold mine.

439
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,360
C: And take it straight from the source, because 
their head just fits right in your mouth.

440
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,600
I's a perfect little size, 
and that's another reason the

441
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,960
fancy rats never ever set them free, 
because they are not built to survive.

442
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,200
They are so stupid. They're very 
smart, but they don't survive--

443
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:38,640
Imagine going into another creature's mouth 
that's bigger than you. Just diving on, in there.

444
00:24:39,632 --> 00:24:43,040
J: Can I look at your spit, Sir?
C: Back to the trapped rat experiments.

445
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:52,080
You've kind of got the gist of that sort 
of first course of experiments there.

446
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:58,320
They also recorded the sounds of the 
rats, using an ultrasonic bat detector.

447
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,960
Presumably, stolen from 
Batman, I guess, there you go.

448
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,880
No. It was an ultrasonic detector, it is literally 
a bat detector, but obviously, if they're using

449
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,320
ultrasonic sound waves, it doesn't really 
matter what animal it's coming from.

450
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,080
L: Detected anything.
C: Yeah, it can detect any ultrasonic sideways.

451
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,440
They used that to sort of test to 
see what was going on with the rats,

452
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:27,200
what they were saying to each other, sort 
of thing, and there were more alarm calls

453
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,960
recorded during the trapped condition, 13% than 
during the empty and object conditions 3% to 5%,

454
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,760
because the conditions where they put just 
an object in the cage, in the trapped cage.

455
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,760
L: More alarm calls, but the some alarm calls 
still came from the free rat in the control?

456
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,520
C: Yeah, I mean rats are skittish.

457
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,360
L: What do you mean by a lot? 
They're just going “Ah!”?

458
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,040
C: Oh, I should point that out, as well.

459
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,720
This is another thing, this 
goes on to stay, as well.

460
00:25:58,267 --> 00:26:03,840
The cage the rats were in, the 
sort of door, the restraint,

461
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,320
that would sometimes shock the rats a little bit.

462
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:07,680
J: Oh–
C: No, no, no.

463
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:08,800
J: We’re back to shocking.

464
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,480
C: Not like electric shock, scare 
them a little bit, with a noise.

465
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,960
Give them a little bit of a start,

466
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,960
because it makes a noise, and 
they're like: “What? What's that?”

467
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:21,440
But that decreased.

468
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,680
With the trapped rat condition, 
basically with the rats that had

469
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,080
a rat trapped in the restraint, 
that happened less over time.

470
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,800
It showed that they knew what they were doing,

471
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,800
because they weren't scared 
of opening the door anymore.

472
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:35,600
They knew that they were

473
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,400
nudging the door with their face, in 
order to open the door to free the rat.

474
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:41,680
L: Did the trapped rats

475
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,240
squeak less over time, because they knew 
that the other rat would come save them?

476
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,640
C: I don't have information on that.
L: I would expect so.

477
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,240
C: Oh wait. Yes, hold on.

478
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:59,200
“Alarm calls occurred more frequently 20% to 27% 
on days one to three when door opening was rare,

479
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,680
and in 90% of files containing an alarm calls 
on day one, the trap rat was identified as

480
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,720
the source. In the remaining samples we 
were not able to identify the caller”.

481
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:08,240
“These data…

482
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:11,360
I love reading scientific papers sometimes.

483
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,640
“These data suggest that the 
trap rats were indeed stressed”.

484
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,200
L: Yeah, you think?
J: Maybe.

485
00:27:19,521 --> 00:27:23,200
C: I think what's quite good about this 
is they got quite a lot of data on this.

486
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,000
They thought of a lot of…

487
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,720
Basically, all these questions that you're asking, 
they've kind of thought of the answers to them.

488
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,680
More of the female rats. This is interesting. 
More of the female rats than the male rats.

489
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,280
6 out of 6 female rats,

490
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,840
compared to 17 out of 24 male rats, in 
the trap condition became door openers.

491
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:42,960
And it says that: “That's consistent with the

492
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,120
suggestions that females are 
more empathetic than males”.

493
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:47,760
I assume in rats. I don't 
know if they're trying to say…

494
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,760
L: Across the board.
C: All females, all the time, absolutely.

495
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,920
J: That's how that's actually how you 
determine, what's a male, what’s a female.

496
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,400
C: Absolutely. Chromosomes? Blah. No.

497
00:27:57,433 --> 00:27:58,640
J: Empathy level, that's it.

498
00:27:58,640 --> 00:27:59,560
C: I mean…

499
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,360
L: A new biological marker for biological sex.
C: That kind of is a gender thing, though.

500
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:09,000
Men are taught to be less 
empathetic than women. Or just feel–

501
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,320
L: But rat men are not taught to 
be less empathetic than rat women.

502
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,440
C: Luke, are you trying to 
create rat men? Is that the

503
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,440
whole spit-swapping thing
you got going on there?

504
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,640
Are you creating a race of 
super powered rat people?

505
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,200
L: Yeah, to get me out of 
a cage when I get trapped.

506
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,400
C: Oddly specifically.
L: Squeak, squeak…

507
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,640
C: Oddly specific use case, but 
honestly, I'm not gonna question it.

508
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:38,360
L: I get trapped in a cave somewhere. “Don't worry 
everyone, I'm gonna call my rat man brigade”.

509
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,280
♪ Rat-man ♪

510
00:28:41,231 --> 00:28:42,721
J: Just Snowhite, but just rats.

511
00:28:43,878 --> 00:28:44,612
Help me.

512
00:28:44,612 --> 00:28:48,800
C: But it is a human with a rat's head, 
the size of a rat's head, honestly.

513
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,560
J: I like Mr. Rat.
L: I'm not telling you, because–

514
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,160
C: No, no, no, because that's a human…

515
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,720
Mr. Rat has a rat’s head, but 
it is the size of a human head.

516
00:28:57,182 --> 00:28:59,182
I’m talking a human with
a rat’s head the size–

517
00:28:59,182 --> 00:29:00,582
J: The size of a rat’s head.

518
00:29:03,269 --> 00:29:06,694
L: Rat body with a
full size human head.

519
00:29:06,983 --> 00:29:08,560
C: That is infinitely worse.

520
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,840
L: Drag yourself along backwards.

521
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,760
And I'm like: “How are you 
gonna save me from this trap?”

522
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,280
J: What doors your opening?
L: Yeah, it does, somehow.

523
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,960
C: Sometimes people comment saying that 
this podcast is too full of nonsense,

524
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,120
that they don't get enough facts, and I say:

525
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,160
“Damn it, there are tons of facts, you 
just gotta wade through the nonsense”.

526
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,240
J: Yeah, stop listening.

527
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,480
C: Or better, wade through the facts 
to get to all this fun nonsense,

528
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,800
which is the real reason for this podcast.

529
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,920
L: Yeah.
J: Yeah.

530
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,240
C: Good. Back to the rats.

531
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,560
As I've said, the females seem to 
be more empathetic than the males.

532
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:49,520
Again, there's only 6 females that were tested 
in this, and only 24 males that were tested, so

533
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,960
I don't know if we could extrapolate this out 
to all rats, but in this experiment at least,

534
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:58,560
the females seem to be more empathetic 
than the males, which is interesting.

535
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,440
I mean, I guess if I was to pull an 
explanation for that out from anywhere,

536
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:09,280
males are maybe a little bit more fighty 
with each other, than females are, but–

537
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,120
L: I can't let the rat out, it might fight me.

538
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,040
C: Exactly, there's a dominant…

539
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,600
There's still dominance between female 
rats, as well, so it's tough to say.

540
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,800
L: I would love to know if you did a big enough 
study, whether there was a difference between the

541
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:28,400
number of female rats/male rats would let out, and 
the number of male rats/female rats would let out.

542
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,160
C: Well Luke, all we need to do,

543
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,880
is get a lot of rats.
L: Well, yeah…

544
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,520
C: And they're very easy to get.
L: Yeah. They're really cheap.

545
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,760
C: They're so cheap, and also
they just make more.

546
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,400
They make more super quick.
L: Unlimited rats.

547
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,680
C: You don't even need to do anything.

548
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,560
You can literally just put two together 
and in two weeks you'll have like ten more,

549
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,240
and then if you keep on leaving them 
together, they just exponentially grow out.

550
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,560
J: Mitosis.
L: We have three billion rats.

551
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,480
C: You just drop some food 
in there every now and then,

552
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,120
like suddenly you've got more 
rats. It's like magic, honestly.

553
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,520
The next question they could have had was 
is there something else affecting this.

554
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,760
Is the sort of rate of opening affected 
by boldness of the rats, so they thought:

555
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,920
“OK, let's take some rats. 
Let's see how bold they are–

556
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,680
L: Make them fight.
C: No.

557
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,920
L: That's how you test boldness, is it not?
C: No, that's not your test boldness.

558
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,120
How you test boldness is, actually, 
I think a lot more interesting.

559
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,120
There was a ledge test…

560
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,040
J: Gosh.

561
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,320
L: Like a cliff?
J: It's just like jumping between high places?

562
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,280
C: I mean no, no, no. Just a ledge. So they're…

563
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,920
Sorry, this is just really ridiculous.

564
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,720
They basically just had some 
ledges and they test how

565
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,960
quickly the rats would be able to 
overcome the ledge, and that's it.

566
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,240
L: When you say overcome the 
ledge, what do you mean? Jump down?

567
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,560
C: Yeah, yeah.

568
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:48,480
It's that, it's just silly.

569
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,920
L: But that's not necessarily a test for 
boldness, it can also be a test for stupidity.

570
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,720
J: What if they committing suicide?
C: It's not–

571
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,877
L: All the depression, it's a depression.
J: It could be depression.

572
00:31:56,877 --> 00:32:01,600
C: Rats can fall a really far 
distance and be fine. It's not…

573
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,520
J: It could also not be fine.

574
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,360
C: No, no.
J: OK.

575
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,800
C: Again. I've seen a rat jump 
off of like a five foot cage–

576
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,200
J: But if they know they'll be 
fine, is that really boldness?

577
00:32:12,820 --> 00:32:14,720
C Yeah, because it's still, I mean–

578
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,520
L: It's your test of knowledge, 
of terminal velocity.

579
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,520
They're actually gravitational geniuses.

580
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,880
What I'm saying is that, your conclusion that

581
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,320
this is a test for boldness is not 
necessarily the only conclusion.

582
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,280
C: OK, so let me go more in depth on this. 
It's the ledge of a half opened cage.

583
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,360
It's basically to see how long it would take 
for them to approach that ledge, rather than–

584
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,440
L: Approach the lead?
C. Yeah, rather than jump off it.

585
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,680
Approach the ledge, and then see what 
they're doing there. If they're like:

586
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:48,720
“Oh, I'm scared to go–

587
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:49,600
L: So it's a test

588
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,640
for whether you're scared of heights.
J: Which is directly linked to boldness.

589
00:32:55,556 --> 00:32:58,880
C: OK, you know what? Let's 
stop the episode here. You two,

590
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,200
tell me how you would test boldness and rats?

591
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,000
L: Make him fight.

592
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,920
C: No, no, no.
I want Jamp to start off.

593
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,360
J: I wouldn't.
C: No, no, no. Tell me.

594
00:33:06,732 --> 00:33:08,212
L: …something else.

595
00:33:08,212 --> 00:33:10,099
C: Give it a go.
J: I simply asked them.

596
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,042
J: On a scale from 1 to 10,
how bold do you consider you are?

597
00:33:16,042 --> 00:33:16,695
C: Bear in mind, Jamp…

598
00:33:16,695 --> 00:33:18,543
L: That’s cool
qualitative data, Jamp.

599
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,960
C: We have a rat downstairs.

600
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:29,280
If you are going to stand behind asking a rat how 
bold it is, we can test that right here and now.

601
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,080
J: Well, if the rat doesn't answer me, it must be

602
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:38,240
pretty bold to have the cheek, and the audacity 
to ignore, a creature that's much larger than it.

603
00:33:39,397 --> 00:33:43,400
L: I'm with Jamp on this. That is a perfect 
test. It doesn't test for anything else.

604
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,440
J: The call and the gumption.
L: I am such a creature,

605
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,160
such a majestic creature, as myself.

606
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,240
C: I don't know how this episode got so silly.

607
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,560
I don't know where it came from.

608
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:55,200
L: Well, I mean–

609
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:56,800
J: It's about rats saving each other.

610
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,720
L: Yeah, about rats being 
trapped and saving each other…

611
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:01,760
J & L: From restraint.

612
00:34:04,273 --> 00:34:06,320
L: I don't know how this episode got so silly.

613
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,280
The researchers 100 years ago 
used to create devices that allowed rats

614
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,320
to electrocute each other whilst getting 
a snack, when did this episode get silly?

615
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,320
C: That was 60 years ago.
L: Well, I'm so sorry.

616
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,400
C: And so Luke, you were talking about

617
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,160
the squeals of the rat, and see if 
that was going to be affecting it.

618
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:28,880
L: Yes.

619
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,000
C: I'm not going to talk about that,

620
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,240
I'm going to talk about something slightly 
different. I'm going to talk about–

621
00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:34,027
L: What the heck what’s that? That’s weird.

622
00:34:35,060 --> 00:34:36,560
C: Just keeping you on your toes.

623
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,320
I want to talk about the sort of social 
interaction, because they want to see:

624
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,280
“Oh, are the rats freeing the other rats just 
because they want to hang out with them?”

625
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,080
Well, they decided to test for that.

626
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,560
So what they did was they had a 
different setup wherein the rat

627
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,400
could free the other rat, but 
then they couldn't hang out.

628
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,640
They were just slightly separated–

629
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,597
L: Great work.
C: …and they still did let them out.

630
00:34:59,597 --> 00:35:00,320
J: It's nice.

631
00:35:01,105 --> 00:35:03,520
C: So they did this for, I think…

632
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:13,120
Gosh 29 days of testing, but there were 
3 rats that didn't open the door on any

633
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:18,480
of the last 3 days of testing, and 
then they weren't tested any further.

634
00:35:19,555 --> 00:35:21,920
J: This is futile, you're just going 
to end up back in there anyway.

635
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,840
L: Mum was called, and they came to pick them up.

636
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,680
C: OK, hold on.

637
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,000
Let me go over this again.

638
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,760
J: Quick, mum’s coming. Hide in the restraints.

639
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,400
C: There were 12 pairs of rats, and they 
were exposed in sort of that trapped

640
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,320
condition over 12 days, and 3 of the rats 
didn't open the door in the last 3 days,

641
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:46,960
so they stopped with them and then, 
they use the new setup for 29 days.

642
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,160
The new setup being, if you let the rat out, go 
somewhere else, and you don't get to hang out.

643
00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:01,360
They tested that and then they reversed 
it, so the rats that were in the separate

644
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,720
engagement condition were then tested in the 
separated empty condition, and vice versa.

645
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:10,960
They basically swapped the control rats with 
the non-control rats, to see what would happen.

646
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,317
L: The trap traps became the freeing rats–

647
00:36:14,317 --> 00:36:15,240
C: No, no. So they…

648
00:36:16,273 --> 00:36:18,560
L: No?
C: The control being…

649
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,480
Remember? There was just an empty cage.

650
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,720
So they swapped the rats with the empty 
cage, with the rats that had a trap trap.

651
00:36:25,652 --> 00:36:26,720
Is this making sense?

652
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:28,320
J: Yes.
L: Yes, yeah.

653
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,960
C: Is this making sense?
Let me know in the comments.

654
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,120
J: Did they have to pair up the control rats 
with another control rat to become friends?

655
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,360
C: I think all of the rats were just 
paired with other rats, and then they…

656
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,680
J: Oh, previously, then some of 
them went on to just be alone.

657
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,160
C: I think, because they were 
swapping the control rats between…

658
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:44,960
I think they just…

659
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:51,040
It doesn't actually explicitly say there, but 
I think they just paired up a bunch of rats,

660
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,080
there were rat pairs, and they had them working in 
pairs, and when they wanted them to be controls,

661
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,240
obviously, they weren't working in 
pairs, so they just separated them.

662
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:59,040
J: Very good, that makes sense.
C: Good.

663
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:08,480
Looking at this, essentially, what they found 
was that with the separate cagemate condition,

664
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,960
they either continued or returned to 
opening the door at short latency,

665
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,400
as they had in the trap condition.

666
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,880
They continued to let the rats out,

667
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,760
at a faster rate, even though 
they couldn't hang out with them.

668
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,320
And conversely, when there was an empty restraint,

669
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:31,760
they usually ended up kind of stopping opening 
it, because they weren't letting a rat out.

670
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,560
They'd open it for a bit, and 
then be like: “This is pointless”.

671
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,080
L: Because they're trying 
to figure out what it is,

672
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,080
and it's not interesting anymore, 
because you know what it is.

673
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:38,880
C: Exactly, yeah.

674
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,200
That kind of indicates that they're

675
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,320
not doing it just for social contact, 
because rats do like social contact.

676
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,800
If you were lonely, and there was someone trapped, 
you'd be like: “Maybe they'll talk to me”,

677
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,400
and you let them out, and then you can talk.

678
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:56,120
That's the only reason–

679
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,320
L: You could talk to without 
letting them out, to be fair, maybe.

680
00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:59,632
J: That's true.
L: Just shout.

681
00:37:59,632 --> 00:38:00,560
C: That's true.
J: Through the bars.

682
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,400
C: They only let through screams.

683
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,904
J: Help, help…

684
00:38:05,904 --> 00:38:08,720
C: It's not a very good scream.
J: I was trying to do like a tiny rat’s scream.

685
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:10,280
Help, help…

686
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,329
C: I hate that so much.
L: That is horrifying.

687
00:38:12,329 --> 00:38:13,440
C: That is horrible.

688
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,369
That is…

689
00:38:16,369 --> 00:38:19,720
No, no, no. Stop that.
L: You're staying in the cage.

690
00:38:20,588 --> 00:38:24,480
C: I would honestly, put you out 
of my misery, I think, genuinely...

691
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,000
J: Put a cage in a cage.

692
00:38:26,661 --> 00:38:30,000
L: I'd let you out, but only in the version 
where I didn't get to hang out with you.

693
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,120
Right, go away.

694
00:38:33,291 --> 00:38:34,175
J: Or is it a ledge nearby, you push…

695
00:38:36,820 --> 00:38:38,160
C: They also…

696
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,640
This is coming towards the end of their 
experiment. They did something else.

697
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:48,240
They wanted to see what the value of the 
sort of laying the cage made out was.

698
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:50,880
You want to see how much do you 
actually care about doing this.

699
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,461
They got some chocolate chips, because 
rats love some chocolate chips—

700
00:38:55,461 --> 00:38:59,673
L: But they would do it for free, before.
C: They got some chocolate chips…

701
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,480
Listen here, yeah.
L: Sorry, OK.

702
00:39:04,464 --> 00:39:12,800
C: So what they had, they had some chocolate 
chips, and they had a choice between, essentially…

703
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:18,080
I mean letting the other rat out 
first or having the chocolate.

704
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,920
And obviously, there were a bunch of controls,

705
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:29,760
being like chocolate with no restraint 
rat, and all that sort of stuff.

706
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,720
There were two restrainers in this experiment.

707
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:42,156
One of them had five chocolate chips. 
The other had a trapped rat, right?

708
00:39:42,681 --> 00:39:44,681
J: They’d still free both of them.

709
00:39:45,756 --> 00:39:49,204
L: Just the order.
C: The order and how they act.

710
00:39:49,204 --> 00:39:50,094
L: What would you pick, Jamp?

711
00:39:52,242 --> 00:39:54,242
J: Ah, well I’m not a rat. So…

712
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,680
C: If Luke was trapped in a restraint, and 
there were also five chocolate chips

713
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,840
trapped in the restraint, which would 
you choose to open first? Bear in mind–

714
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,240
J: Would you like some chocolate chips?
C: These are not vegan chocolate chips.

715
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,120
J: Oh, they're not? Well I'll go Luke, then.

716
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:07,213
C: Really?
L: Ah, thanks.

717
00:40:07,213 --> 00:40:09,840
C: I'd still get the chocolate 
chips first, might be useful.

718
00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:12,480
L: There's no currency.
C: You can wait.

719
00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:15,160
L: I'll make you some chocolate 
chips if you let me out.

720
00:40:15,945 --> 00:40:18,800
C: We're in a restraint. I want to 
get those chocolate chips first.

721
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,400
I don't trust you. Were you 
going to take him from me?

722
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,960
Want to share my chocolate chips? No. I'll 
take them first and then you can come up.

723
00:40:25,952 --> 00:40:30,400
L: Wow, remember the bit where prosocial 
behavior feels good and sharing is nice?

724
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,880
C: Hey, I'll decide whether to 
share once I've let you out.

725
00:40:34,946 --> 00:40:36,240
L: Once you've had your chocolate chips.

726
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:39,600
C: I'm not gonna eat those chocolate 
chips, I'm saving them in case I need them.

727
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,720
L: Right, for me.
C: No, maybe.

728
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:44,760
L: OK.
C: Just not gonna let you make that decision.

729
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,800
I’m gonna keep it to myself, don't trust you.

730
00:40:47,916 --> 00:40:51,840
J: So what did the rats do, did they choose 
the chocolate buttons or did they choose Luke?

731
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,591
Sorry, Luke rat.

732
00:40:55,591 --> 00:40:57,600
L: I don't remember being in this, but…

733
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,160
J: It was 12…

734
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,680
C & J: It was 11 years ago.

735
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,840
L: Yeah, I blocked it out.
Kept getting.

736
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,480
Chocolate chips picked instead of me.

737
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,665
C: Imagine…
J: [...]

738
00:41:11,665 --> 00:41:14,160
C: A lot of people have the experience 
of being picked last in gym class,

739
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,080
or being not being picked in school, 
Luke was picked last by rats, many times.

740
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:20,160
J: Over some chocolate buttons.

741
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,360
L: I was also picked in gym class last 
over some chocolate buttons, as well.

742
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:27,640
It was just a team of chocolate 
buttons against me playing basketball.

743
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,400
J: Yeah, I want my goalie to be 
these chocolate buttons, please.

744
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,200
C: Give me a dodgeball and you're 
just up against the chocolate buttons.

745
00:41:34,275 --> 00:41:35,214
J: They still lost.

746
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,682
C: They're very hard to hit, aren't they?
J: They are, yeah.

747
00:41:47,002 --> 00:41:50,800
C: In this experiment with the 
restraint full of five chocolate chips…

748
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,000
I say full. The restraint with five–

749
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,360
L: What do you mean a “restraint 
full of five chocolates”?

750
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,160
C: It's the same restraint.
L: I'm imagining it like–

751
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:57,200
J: Well, it's like a little room–

752
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,847
C: It's the same restraint that the 
other rat is in, it's just a little box.

753
00:42:01,847 --> 00:42:04,000
Like a little trap rat.
J: They have to push the door.

754
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,280
L: Oh, they push the door up and then 
they can get the chocolate chips.

755
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,480
C: Yeah, it's the same restraint 
that the other rat is in.

756
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,880
They've got to do the same thing with the 
door, but in the chocolate chips case,

757
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,560
instead of a rat coming out, they can 
just pop in and get some chocolate chips.

758
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,920
L: OK, yeah.
C: We all understand.

759
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,400
J: It's equally easy to get into.

760
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,080
C: It's the same restraint, it's 
just in one case there's a rat,

761
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,920
and in the other case 
there's five chocolate chips.

762
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,880
In this experiment, there wasn't…

763
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:40,960
Either for the rats that had the chocolate chip, 
and the other rats are trapped in the restraints,

764
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,840
“there was no difference in 
the door opening latencies

765
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,040
for the two restrainers during days 6 to 12” and…

766
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,120
“In contrast, the rats in the 
chocolate empty conditions”.

767
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,320
The rats that had one restraint with chocolate 
in it, another restraint being empty,

768
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,080
“opened the chocolate containing restraint 
far more quickly than the empty one”.

769
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,760
Basically, if there was a rat 
trapped and a chocolate chip trapped,

770
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,520
the latency was roughly the same for the first…

771
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:16,000
L: Right. On average, rats value another rat 
versus five chocolate chips roughly the same.

772
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,280
C: In the last 6 to 12 days, yeah.

773
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,120
L: OK, quite sad.

774
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,640
C: But hold on, what that says is

775
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,480
that, yeah, the value of freeing a friend and 
getting some chocolate are roughly the same.

776
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,640
And bear in mind, rats bloody love chocolate.

777
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,040
L: Could the rat that was freed, 
get to the chocolate chips?

778
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,760
C: Yeah. If you freed the other 
rat first, they both basically

779
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,400
had access to get the chocolate chips, 
and something that's interesting here…

780
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,440
This is really cool. If they 
got the chocolate first,

781
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,360
obviously, they could just eat all the 
chocolate, and these rats were fed.

782
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,760
These weren't starved rats. They made sure that 
they were fully fed. They weren't hungry rats.

783
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,200
J: There's always room for chocolate buttons.
C: There's always room for chocolate.

784
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,720
There's always room for a little chocolate. 
Although, yes, a rat can be not hungry…

785
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:05,280
J: As soon as you bring out the chocolate buttons…

786
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:11,760
C: I swear to God, oh my God, the number of times 
the rats found chocolate, and just demolished it.

787
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,600
J: I've seen so many pictures that Noah's taking.

788
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,040
C: Well, there was Christmas chocolate. There 
was one where we got Christmas chocolate sent,

789
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,400
and Noah puts them down in the room and 
he comes in the next day, and it's just

790
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,120
a rat, a big fat rat covered in chocolate.

791
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,600
J: Pictures of a rat with 
chocolate around its mouth.

792
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:31,520
C: There is a specific picture of Alfie looking 
real fat, being grabbed around the middle with me.

793
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:32,880
J: Yeah, that's the one I'm thinking.

794
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,680
C: It's getting wrapped away 
from chocolate is a tough thing.

795
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,600
Obviously, if they opened the 
chocolate chip restraint first,

796
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:46,880
they could have all the chocolate chips 
they wanted, but they found that the rats…

797
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,160
If there's another rat trapped, as well, so 
the rats in the chocolate cage mate condition,

798
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,280
they would save on average about one of 
the five chocolate chips for the other rat.

799
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:58,400
L: Wow.
J: That's nice.

800
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,080
C: And obviously, in the chocolate chip empty 
condition, they just ate all the chocolate chips.

801
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:13,360
The actual numbers here are in 52% of the 
trials, they shared some chocolate chips,

802
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,840
I think that was in the first few days.

803
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:23,920
And in 61% of the trials on days 6 to 
12, they shared the chocolate chips.

804
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,640
They actually were more likely to share 
towards the end of the experiment.

805
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:31,840
And the rats in the chocolate empty condition,

806
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:37,040
usually, a pretty much all the chips, 
4.8 is the average sort of number of

807
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:41,120
chocolate chips there were eaten, when there was 
just chocolate chips, and an empty restraint.

808
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,320
As I said, in the free 
condition, they ate fewer chips.

809
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,320
It was actually 3.5, I think, plus or minus 1.5.

810
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,200
They basically let the other 
rats eat the remaining chips,

811
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,240
which is roughly about one and 
a half chips, they would leave.

812
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:02,160
Which for a rat, leaving one 
chocolate chip for another rat__

813
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,560
J: It’s pretty sensible.
C: That is really nice, isn't it?

814
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,400
J: You know when you're full.
C: Yeah…

815
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,840
Well, they're never full obviously, 
but they're specifically leafing…

816
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,040
I think that's really interesting that they're

817
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,280
specifically leaving a chocolate chip 
for another rat to eat, after they…

818
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,160
They're planning like: “OK, I'm gonna go 
and get these first, my chocolate chips,

819
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,227
and then I'll leave the one chocolate 
chip, and you can have that one once I've–

820
00:46:23,227 --> 00:46:24,520
J: I’ve saved this for you.

821
00:46:25,708 --> 00:46:31,600
C: Look, I found one chocolate chip, you can have 
it my lovely friend, since you have been trapped.

822
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,880
J: I will sacrifice chocolate 
chip. I will go chocolate chipless.

823
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,560
C: There were no more chocolate 
chips, you may have this one.

824
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,000
What is this on my face you ask?

825
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,400
Feces, I'm a rat.

826
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,480
J: This is what I had to eat to 
save the chocolate chip for you.

827
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,800
I wish they did a version where saving the 
chocolate chips, like opened a trapdoor

828
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,600
and the rat fell, and so had to actually 
pick between chocolate chips or my friend.

829
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,000
L: Wow.
C: Why are you two making such cruel–

830
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,360
L: I want a version–

831
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:02,520
J: Well, they can fall quite long.

832
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,720
L: I want a version where there's 
two experiments, but in both,

833
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:14,720
there's a rat in the trap and and there's also 
the chocolate chips, but in one of them, there is

834
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:20,320
see-through glass or see-through plastic, so the 
other rat can see and judge, and I want to see if

835
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,800
rats have guilt when they know the other 
rat knows, and they then leave more chips.

836
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:27,920
C: That's interesting.

837
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:32,720
My hypothesis on that is that rats 
don't have that kind of guilt.

838
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,760
L: Well, let's run the experiment.
C: Let's do it, yeah.

839
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,680
I mean, that'd be really interesting. 
It'd be really interesting.

840
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,640
L: I also think rats probably 
can't count to five, so…

841
00:47:42,273 --> 00:47:45,440
J: Half of five is one, I'll give you one.
C: That's actually…

842
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,040
L: I highly doubt rats can count to five.
J: Did any of the rest–

843
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,680
C: I think rats can probably count to 
five. I think a rat could probably–

844
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,800
L: We've got two experiments 
to do now, haven't we?

845
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,560
Whether the rats can count to five,

846
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,800
and also whether rats have guilt when they 
know the other person knows they're guilty?

847
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,440
C: Yeah, I mean it isn't counting to 
five necessarily so much that it's just

848
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,120
understanding a quantity of five.

849
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:15,280
L: Oh yeah, I just mean whether the other 
rat looking on, will be able to tell the

850
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:20,880
difference between two, or three, or 
one, and hold that in memory and then…

851
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,200
Then we need to have another experiment for 
whether that other rat it gets petty about it.

852
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,480
C: Man, I think you just want to watch a bunch 
of rats, which I would recommend just getting–

853
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,640
L: I want to watch a bunch 
of rats in a systematic way,

854
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,640
and draw conclusions. I want to be a scientist.

855
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:35,360
Oh wow, cool.

856
00:48:37,502 --> 00:48:41,280
C: Luke, you just want pet 
rats. You just want pet rats.

857
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,400
L: Yeah, true. I don't necessarily 
care about empirical data,

858
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,880
I just want to watch them do 
things, and then talk about it.

859
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,280
“I saw my rat do this thing. Oh, interesting”.

860
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,600
C: Well, you tell everyone 
that you're testing them,

861
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,120
but actually, you're just watching them do stuff.

862
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,840
That's what I did.
J: I got really guilty.

863
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,440
Did any of them share the chocolate chips 
and split the fifth one? To have half each?

864
00:49:05,093 --> 00:49:07,040
C: Have you read a scientific paper?
J: No.

865
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,360
L: Not one. Not one ever?
J: Maybe half of one.

866
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:14,960
L: You split it?

867
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,135
J: Yeah, with the rats.

868
00:49:19,135 --> 00:49:22,480
C: Tend not to have that kind 
of information in them, usually.

869
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,760
J: Well, they're quite thorough, or so I'm told.

870
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,160
L: Did any rats release the other rat and 
then the other rat went an eat all of the–

871
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,480
C: It doesn't say that.
L: OK, that's a shame.

872
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:39,600
C: I'll just read the sort of the 
results or discussion part. It says:

873
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,320
“Our study demonstrates that 
rats behave prosocially when

874
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,240
they perceive a conspecific experiencing 
non-painful psychological restraint stress”.

875
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,160
Essentially, what it's saying is,

876
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:56,560
rats do something nice for other 
rats, when another rat feels bad.

877
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:57,733
L: And there's no downside for them.

878
00:49:57,733 --> 00:50:02,960
C: Yeah, there's no downside for them, but also 
there's no physical harm coming to the other rat.

879
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:08,160
This is purely just a sort of psychological 
stress for the other rat. That's what it says.

880
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:09,600
And then goes on to say:

881
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,000
“Demonstrates that rats behave prosocially 
when they perceive and conspecific experiencing

882
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:24,320
non-painful psychological restraint stress, acting 
to end that distress through deliberate action.”

883
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,040
“In contrast to previous work, 
the present study shows prosocial

884
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,680
behavior which is accomplished by 
the deliberate action of a rat”.

885
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,880
“Moreover this behavior occurred in the 
absence of training or social reward,

886
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,680
and even when in competition 
with highly palatable food”.

887
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,800
Sorry. I just love that in experiments with

888
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,760
rats you've got to take into account 
the fact that they really love food…

889
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:44,560
Like a lot like.

890
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:49,280
As in, we'll go for chocolate chips 
over letting someone else out–

891
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,160
J: Who can blame them?
C: I mean, yeah…

892
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:53,840
I did say I would do the same thing.

893
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:58,240
Probably, I'm going to stick by that, sorry buddy.

894
00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:00,800
L: Well, but you said you'd do the 
same thing if it was me trapped.

895
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,800
You may you'd do a different 
thing when it was anybody else.

896
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,480
C: If it was a rat trap, I would let the rat…

897
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:05,360
No. I don't trust, no.

898
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,480
I would only get the chocolate chips first so that

899
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,400
I could give them to the rat, and 
the rat would be friends with me.

900
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,240
J: That's nice.
L: Is that prosocial behavior then? I'm not sure.

901
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:17,273
C: It is prosocial behavior. 
Prosocial behavior is regardless–

902
00:51:17,273 --> 00:51:18,560
L: But it is not empathy.

903
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,333
C: There may be some empathy in there.
J: Maybe a little bit.

904
00:51:22,333 --> 00:51:25,280
C: There is some empathy in there. 
It's just the overriding emotion

905
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,600
is I want me to feel good, and 
be a savior to the little rats.

906
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,240
J: He's specifically saving chocolate 
chips for the rat, for them–

907
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,480
L: He's saving chocolate chips so the 
rat will love him. That was very clear.

908
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,280
J: Yeah, but he's going–

909
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:39,280
L: Not so that rat will be–

910
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,480
J: I know the rat's going to enjoy this.
L: Yes, and therefore it will love me.

911
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,680
That is the overarching message there.

912
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:46,560
C: Yeah.
J: Yeah.

913
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,080
C: Yeah.
L: Yeah.

914
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,720
I don't say there's something wrong with 
that, I'm just saying it's not pure empathy.

915
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:54,800
C: Ain't nothing wrong with that. The 
rat gets loved, and I get loved by rat.

916
00:51:58,000 --> 00:51:58,960
Obviously, there's a discussion.

917
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:04,000
They give some alternative explanations. It says 
in the paper they give some other reasons for the

918
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,240
results that they might have seen, which 
is a standard thing that you do in paper.

919
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:10,000
I'll just read some of these out, because 
I want you to bear these in mind, because

920
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,000
it's kind of the topic of discussion I 
want to get to, once once we finish this.

921
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:19,680
They said that “the rats might have acted to stop 
the alarm calls of the trapped rats”, but the

922
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:25,680
explanation for this is that apparently, the sort 
of little rat screams, weren't frequent enough.

923
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,240
They didn't happen often enough 
to support that idea, so…

924
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,760
The rats were complaining a lot, but 
just not enough for it to make sense

925
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,840
that the other rats would want 
him to shut up, sort of thing.

926
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:39,920
On top of that, they said:

927
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,960
“OK, well the rats are curious 
little creatures, aren't they?

928
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,800
Maybe they freed the cage mate 
because they were curious”,

929
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:53,600
but actually, they did it for over a month, after 
over a month a rat is going to stop being curious.

930
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,160
J: That was the point of getting 
them familiar with each other.

931
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,480
C: If it's been a month,
you're gonna expect...

932
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,520
J: [...]
C: They're gonna get bored of this, right?

933
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,200
So they kind of did that
in order to make sure,

934
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:10,800
"OK, well, it's not
just the curious thing",

935
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:11,760
and this happens a lot in science.

936
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,840
You've got to think...
You would have the kind of mind to think:

937
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,040
What are the other explanations for 
this and how can we rule those out.

938
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,800
And they said, also, door opening 
could be just coincidental,

939
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:26,560
because they're very active, but...

940
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,680
It's not likely, because once the 
rats learned to open the door,

941
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,680
they did so in short and short times.

942
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:32,800
They were quicker at doing it.

943
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:35,520
It was a short time between them being put in the

944
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,360
cage and them opening the door 
and they did it in the same way,

945
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,880
like they consistently did 
it with the same method.

946
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,560
And so it kind of shows that 
they learned how to open the door

947
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,240
and then they were making the decision to open the 
door rather than just doing it by random chance,

948
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:51,680
because if they were
doing it by random chance,

949
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,880
you wouldn't expect to see in like...

950
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:55,720
A short and short time.

951
00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:56,800
L: I have a question.
C: Yes?

952
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:01,440
L: So, this will probably not 
be in your paper there, but...

953
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:04,480
One thing that's come up in my head is like,

954
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:09,840
I would assume, once the rat lets the 
other rat out, experiment is over.

955
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,480
C: They get to hang out for a little bit.
L: They get hang out for a little bit, OK.

956
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,760
That's fine, because I was wondering whether 
they just didn't want to be in the cage

957
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,160
and they learned that letting the other rat out

958
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,320
meant that the experiment would 
be done and they'd be taken away.

959
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,480
C: The experiments lasted at the 
same amount of time every time.

960
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:23,818
They just got--
L: Right...

961
00:54:23,818 --> 00:54:25,920
J: And that's why even if they 
didn't free them they got taken out.

962
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:27,360
C: Yeah, and remember,
even if they didn't free them,

963
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,280
they would they would let the 
other rat out for a little bit.

964
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,800
L: Right.
Bravo, science, well done.

965
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,800
C: Sorry, I should have
mentioned that, but--

966
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,560
They did cover their bases 
quite a bit on this and so...

967
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:43,360
They then go on to
say that this sort of...

968
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:52,080
This sort of shows that they were probably having 
this like, sort of empathy response, right?

969
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:56,960
Or this feeling of empathy
or the equivalent of empathy for rats.

970
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,240
And that was driving them
to let the other out, which...

971
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,920
I mean, I think is a
harder thing to prove.

972
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,440
Like, you've really got to infer that.

973
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,680
Like, we've ruled out a lot of things,

974
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:12,160
but we don't think we've
ruled out everything, right?

975
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:17,120
And so there's another study I've got that kind 
of looks into whether it's social contact...

976
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,800
Rather than empathy
that drives rats to "rescue" other rats.

977
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,400
And that was done in 2013
that was published in Animal Cognition.

978
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,920
And I'll just briefly go over it.

979
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:38,000
Essentially, they did a similar experiment,
but what they said was that,

980
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,400
this was kind of a new
kind of experiment, right?

981
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:43,760
It was a novel experiment.

982
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:45,840
And obviously, with new experiments

983
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,040
There are some kind of kinks 
that you got to work out, like...

984
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:54,080
If the method isn't like,
sort of replicated a lot,

985
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,400
then there could be
some sort of issues with it

986
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:57,680
or some things that you've missed

987
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,920
or some things that we're 
just not sort of sure of yet.

988
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:03,040
Like as in, the results that 
you see could be a result

989
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,960
of the experimental design rather than 
a result of the behavior of the rats

990
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,280
and because it's not been replicated 
a lot it's hard to tell what is what.

991
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:12,900
That makes sense?

992
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,360
So they basically
used a sort of similar...

993
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,960
They used a kind of
similar-ish design, but quite--

994
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,400
Similar-ish in terms of they were 
looking for the same sort of thing,

995
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,120
they had a trapped rat,
but they did it in a very different way.

996
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,440
In order to sort of stress test this idea, right?

997
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:35,040
Whether it is sort of this empathy response 
that is causing these rats to do this,

998
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,880
using like, quite a different design that 
kind of tests for the sort of same thing.

999
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,520
And the results that they had were 
that it seemed more like it was social,

1000
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,080
basically social companionship 
that the rats were pursuing...

1001
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,400
L: But they still let them out when 
they couldn't hang out with them.

1002
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,160
C: Yeah, I know...

1003
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:58,320
So that, again, they said that 
could be an issue with the...

1004
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,880
L: [...] thinks it's going to 
be able to hang out with them.

1005
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,680
C: There could be issues with the 
experimental design of the other experiment...

1006
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,680
L: Surely over time the time to release the rat in

1007
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:11,840
the group that doesn't get to hang 
out with the rat would increase.

1008
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,720
C: Not necessarily, though.

1009
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:16,400
L: Well, it would learn...

1010
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,160
If it was like, motivated towards,
I get to hang out with the rat.

1011
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,080
C: Yeah, so what it says in this paper,

1012
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,800
that's kind of a response to the paper 
that we've just gone over is that

1013
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,280
it's just that the method is new
and so they're stress testing it.

1014
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,280
And again, it could just not be like,
sort of statistically significant.

1015
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,040
Again, because they use like, kind of 
30-ish rats in that initial experiment,

1016
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:38,880
so when you're saying,
"oh, you might expect to see this",

1017
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:40,480
then also there's the rats...

1018
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,000
There's a sort of random chance in 
there, especially with only 30 of them,

1019
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,400
so they used a different experimental 
design that had the similar sort of idea of

1020
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,160
a trapped rat and like, different chambers,

1021
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:53,040
basically to push the sort of...

1022
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:58,480
To push the sort of idea that they had to its 
limits, to see if they still saw the same results

1023
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,800
and they didn't see the same results.

1024
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:01,440
Looking at theirs.

1025
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:07,040
But also, on top of that,
there was a paper in 2020 in Nature called,

1026
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:10,640
"Rats display empathetic behavior independent 
of the opportunity for social interaction"

1027
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:15,600
and in that paper they
removed social interaction as--

1028
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,200
They just removed the social 
interaction almost altogether,

1029
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:25,280
using like, I think it was this weird cage where 
there was like, water involved and it was just...

1030
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,600
There was no contact
between the rats whatsoever.

1031
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:35,280
And they found that rats would still learn to 
release a sort of cage mate that was stressed out

1032
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:40,000
and they would remember how to do the task 
for like a long a longer period of time.

1033
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,880
And if they had previous experience 
with the same environment,

1034
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:49,760
it then would shorten the time that 
it would take for the rat to sort out,

1035
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,640
so if they had experience,
they'd be like, "oh, God I don't like that.

1036
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:53,840
"I remember how that was.

1037
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:54,640
"I want to let them out",

1038
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,680
that's kind of what they're saying 
that happened with those rats.

1039
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,920
And it says that all together they 
sort of they basically think that

1040
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:06,320
kind of indicates that the rats are 
experiencing some form of empathy.

1041
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,760
And the reason I bring up sort of 
these two studies is because...

1042
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,000
The point I'm trying to make 
is that it's very difficult

1043
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,280
to infer the internal experience of something.

1044
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:16,640
So, for example, like an ant--

1045
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,080
That's an example that was used in 
the second paper that I mentioned.

1046
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:27,360
In ants they will basically try and 
help or rescue other ants, right?

1047
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,200
If there's an ant in trouble,
often they'll try and rescue another ant,

1048
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,680
but are they doing that because they 
feel empathy for the other ants?

1049
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,200
Or is it just like, this inbuilt,
like sort of programming in their answer of like,

1050
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:41,360
"oh, we get this signal,
got to rescue the ant", right?

1051
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,520
Like, because it's beneficial 
for the entire group, right?

1052
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,400
L: I don't quite understand the 
difference between those two things.

1053
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:52,640
C: So there's a bit of a difference 
between an emotional response

1054
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,240
that pushes you towards doing something.

1055
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:02,720
So, for example, if you are feeling sad
and I then feel empathy for your sadness

1056
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:09,680
that doesn't mean that I'm immediately going 
to try and comfort you or make you feel better.

1057
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,000
I could be like,
"oh, you're really bumming me out".

1058
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,840
J: I'm gonna go away.
C: "Go home".

1059
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:20,240
I could do that or be like,
"can you like, stop being sad?

1060
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,880
"It's bothering me".
I could do that.

1061
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,000
Whereas with the ant,
it's not feeling empathy.

1062
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,240
It's not feeling sad because
the other ant is feeling sad

1063
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,440
and that's not driving it to 
then rescue the other ant,

1064
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,920
it just has an inbuilt thing of
"this signal means this output".

1065
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,480
L: Yeah, sure.
So empathy is the feeling

1066
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,640
and so you're trying to measure whether

1067
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:45,520
whether an organism has a subjective 
experience of some kind of...

1068
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:48,400
For example, some kind of suffering

1069
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,600
when another animal or another 
organism is suffering despite

1070
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,560
the fact that there's no reason 
for it to suffer materially.

1071
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:57,920
And that is a subjective experience,

1072
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,560
which you can never really know
if another organism is having.

1073
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:03,280
And so...

1074
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:12,480
But if an ant is acting in a way to save another 
ant and potentially putting itself in harm's way

1075
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:16,400
in order to save that ant,

1076
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:22,800
that is a different thing to if 
an ant is acting selfishly and

1077
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:27,680
has a positive output or outlook on another.

1078
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,480
A positive outcome
on another organism, right?

1079
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,040
So to a certain extent, you can 
never prove whether an ant is--

1080
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:41,520
Or either an ant or whether a mouse 
or a rat or whatever has empathy,

1081
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:42,880
you just can't, it's not possible.

1082
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,000
You can't prove if another person has 
empathy you can only look at whether

1083
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:52,240
they are willing to put themselves 
in harm's way even by a tiny amount.

1084
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:56,480
Pushing open the door for another rat 
is putting yourself in harm's way,

1085
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,720
even if it is by a tiny amount,
you're diverting your behavior

1086
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:04,240
from something you'd otherwise be doing,
in order to benefit another organism

1087
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:11,520
and regardless of what the subjective driver is, 
because you can never really know that, that is...

1088
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,560
You are observing a similar behavior,

1089
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,520
the willingness to put yourself at 
risk in order to save another organism.

1090
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,960
C: I don't think you can say
"this experiment proves that rats have empathy".

1091
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,840
And I don't think I have said that,
I wouldn't say that.

1092
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,720
They're trying to infer empathy
and that is as much as they can do.

1093
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:28,560
And the point of that is,
as I've said,

1094
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,800
it is to figure out if that is something 
that non-human animals are capable of

1095
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:41,120
and that has a number of uses in understanding 
the evolution of sort of emotions,

1096
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:42,480
cognition, all of these things.

1097
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:43,920
It could be very useful.

1098
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:48,560
And like, obviously, it's like...

1099
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:53,200
We're not trying to figure out explicitly,
"do they have this exact subjective experience?"

1100
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,280
It is the precursor towards
this prosocial behavior.

1101
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:00,640
Similar to humans, right?

1102
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:04,000
Because a massive driver for prosocial 
behavior in humans is empathy,

1103
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,440
like as I said at the top.

1104
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,880
And we're trying to see is that 
the same from rats or is it...

1105
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:11,520
Is there a different precursor
to prosocial behavior?

1106
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,320
L: Yes.
C: Now it's time for the quick fire quiz!

1107
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:17,773
L: That's a quick ending.

1108
01:03:17,773 --> 01:03:19,080
J: Friend edition.

1109
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:21,360
C: You know the rules for the quick fire quiz.

1110
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,280
I will ask one question to the two 
of you, the first person to answer

1111
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:26,640
the question correctly after buzzing in, 
after I finished asking the question...

1112
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:28,160
Wins, what did they win, Jamp?

1113
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:29,120
J: Nothing.

1114
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:30,560
C: You're gosh darn right.

1115
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:31,984
So, my question for you is:
Luke, what's your buzzer?

1116
01:03:31,984 --> 01:03:32,560
Very good.
Jamp, what's your buzzer?

1117
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,280
J: I'm coming to help!
L: Thank you.

1118
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:39,680
C: [..] That's not gonna work!

1119
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:41,520
So, my question is:

1120
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:44,320
On average how many chocolates did 
the three rats save for the trap rats?

1121
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,432
J: I'm coming to help!

1122
01:03:46,432 --> 01:03:48,800
L: 1.5 chocolates.
C: Yeah.

1123
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:51,200
C: Well done, good job!

1124
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:53,880
J: You win 1.5 chocolates.
L: Do I?

1125
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,880
C: No, you win nothing.
L: Oh, that's cruel!

1126
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,120
C: Did you not listen?
It's absolutely nothing!

1127
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:00,880
J: Not even a single chocolate chip.

1128
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,760
L: You didn't even save me 
a single chocolate chip?

1129
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,600
C: There weren't any chocolate chips!
L: Not even on average 1.5 chocolate chips?

1130
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:10,960
J: Not even 0.2 chocolate chips,
left over on average by the control rats.

1131
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,680
C: Before we go we'd like to thank all of 
our patrons and thank you for watching.

1132
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:15,680
You can find the full references 
for this episode in the description.

1133
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,120
Subscribe for new
episodes every Sunday,

1134
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:18,560
and why not leave us
a nice wee comment?

1135
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:20,880
You can support the
pod at patreon.com/sciguys,

1136
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,120
or you can join our
community over on Discord,

1137
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:27,360
or you can find a ‘contact us’ at SciGuysPod 
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1138
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,400
or you can pick up our merch
at normalcitizen.store,

1139
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,800
Or you can send us an email
at sciguyspod@gmail.com.

1140
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:34,320
J: That's sciguyspod@gmail.com.

1141
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,880
L: ♪ Sci Guys Pod ♪
C: At @gmail.com.

1142
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:38,040
You can follow me at
@notcorry everywhere.

1143
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:39,120
J: You can follow me at
@jampkin everywhere.

1144
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:40,800
L: You can follow me at
@LukeCutforth everywhere.

1145
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:42,680
C: Goodbye.
J: Goodbye!