Tom: Hello again, everyone.

And welcome to the talking puck podcast.

Tom Callahan, Mike Haynes here with you.

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We put a couple out a week in addition to doing our Talking Puck TV live

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So Mike, as we get ready to go here for this particular iteration

of the podcast, this is sometimes we talk about teams today.

It's a little more about players and we touched on some of these

topics last Sunday night's show.

Um, John Klingberg with the Dallas stars Evander Kane with the San Jose Sharks.

And as kinda more information has trickled out, I have expanded thoughts

on both of these, I'm sure you do too, but also it kinda, you know, you

said to me, Tom, what about the bigger picture of the league and the NHL and

where the sport is moving forward?

And I think that's a really interesting and thought provoking topic.

So let's open with your thoughts on that and just kind of.

What, what is going on right now?

Are we seeing not just one or two players, but really an overall and

league wide change in attitude among members of a union, so to speak?

Mike: Absolutely.

We are Tom and you better accept it.

Uh, you better join the march, uh, or you're going to be left behind.

I think if you're a general manager running teams, now you may not like it,

but this is where the league is going.

And when we heard the news about Klingberg and I'll say the same thing

for Evander Kane, when Klingberg said, I don't feel appreciated.

I want to get out of here.

Uh, in essence.

My

Tom: There's Kane's train out of town right there.

Mike: Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

and then Klingberg is on the platform.

Waving slow down, I'll jump on.

Um, let me make sure that doesn't happen again.

Um, so I think that my first reaction when Klingberg, uh, said that.

was, oh, that's that's wrong.

They, you can't do that.

Get, you know, get, was that old school mentality of being around

hockey for, for all these years?

That was my first reaction.

The more I thought about it, I thought, well, I may not agree with what,

how he does it, but I came to the awareness of this is where it's going.

It it's in all the other leagues now.

And this, this, you could say selfishness or it's, it's about my brand.

It's about me, where hockey has always been about team.

First things are changing the younger players coming into the league.

They want communication with the coaches, with the general managers, uh, you know,

they, they want to do their social media.

It's it's there is a difference now for these players and if they don't feel

appreciated, They now know that they can go someplace else, boy timing in the old

days, uh, in Evander Kane if he acted like that and you didn't want him, you

could bury that guy and, and you, you make a call to to all your old school buddies.

The other general manager go don't.

You know what don't don't take don't don't w we're we're burying this guy

and he's done his career has done.

But things have changed.

Now you can act the way that Kane did.

You can act the way Antonio Brown.

Did we go through all that?

We can go through all the different leagues.

It's now seeped into hockey, Tom, where you can be a bad guy, but if

you have a little bit of talent, there are going to be a team.

That's going to give you an opportunity.

The old Oakland Raiders, those guys would remember those and John

Madden's days where they bring in, they bring in all the characters.

And I think, but more than that, we're seeing guys are now it's are

more in control of their careers.

And even if you're not a good guy, even if you say outrageous things,

you're going to get more opportunities.

But more the biggest picture though, I think Tommy is, this

is where the league is now going.

You don't like it, that you're now part of the old guard, new, younger

general managers are going to have to have an understanding of how

to deal with these young players.

Tom: And to, you know, one thing I, all right, Mike, this is, this

is one thing where I I've been a little slow to come around, but I

still, I'm still an eyeball test guy.

I want to see the way a guy performs on the ice.

I don't believe analytics, tell you an entire story.

And I think you can do anything you want with numbers.

Look, I worked in sales, alongside a broadcasting for 15, 20 years.

I know you can make numbers, do what you want.

Uh, but analytics, I think is part of this too, where maybe.

Uh, does that make it easier to argue for a player in a sense, or maybe

because this is part of the new, the new way of evaluating players.

Um, does it make it easier to say for a guy?

Well, you know, he might not be the best person.

He might be adverse in the locker room or whatever.

He may have these off ice problems, but look at his five

on five expected goals for.

You know, and, and argue things like that.

And so teams go, man, five on five we are not very good.

We could use a guy with a good five on five expected goals for it.

Doesn't make it easier in a way to make a case for keeping a player

and giving them yet another chance because of things like that, that are

now I guess, a little more tangible.

Mike: Absolutely.

It does.

Uh, in the old days it would have been somebody going, I don't like the bad guy.

He's a bad guy.

Don't don't want him, don't want him around now.

You've got these.

Uh, and, and I'll tell you this, uh, my son is going off to college next year.

Just studied sports management and major in sports analytics.

It's now a major in colleges and you're going to get guys coming in that that

are looking at the numbers and that's it.

And I wonder about Scouts and guys who played, you know, most of the Scouts

and you know, you've, you've been there.

You've been in the, in the press box.

These guys, the Scouts are former NHL guys and you know, and they

know, they know people and they, you know, it's a whole dynamic of

what do you think about this guy?

What do you know about this guy?

But boy, now the numbers are coming in a little bit.

I that's a great point.

You wonder how much.

That's going to eventually, um, move over the top of just like you said, eyeballing

and knowing and talking about a player.

I think there's going to be a big shift.

I really do.

I think the league is changing, uh, and the more though than just

the analytics, it's the attitude.

Of the younger players who have been coddled spoiled and, uh, and the way

they've been treated their whole lives.

And they expect that now to be the way it's going to be

in the National Hockey League.

And they're getting treated that way.

And I don't, I don't, I don't think that's coming back and, uh, to use your

train analysis, it has left the station.

And, but, but more importantly, you better as an organization.

Figure out that that's where the league is going and learn how to deal.

I don't think you can be, uh, an old guard, tough guy anymore.

And I think you have to deal with players differently.

Tom: Yeah, I agree.

And I think that that's one of the reasons why, uh, Evander Kane probably

will get another chance as much as I wouldn't be the guy to give it to him.

Someone will take that chance on him.

Now, of course, there's, there's the fight right now.

The appeal has been filed.

Um, and they're trying to protect the remaining $22 million on his contract,

which is not an insubstantial amount of course they're gonna, you know, try

to, and that's what the union does.

You know, the union...

100%, they're going through exactly what they should do to

try to protect a member player.

Um, but at the end of the day, if the contract is terminated, which

I think it will be, um, you know, other teams, somebody had a tweet

and I wish I could remember, so I could properly attribute this.

But it was, it basically said NHL team if Evander Kane is $7 million.

Um, no, he's detrimental.

He's a problem child.

We don't want to deal with it.

And Evander Kane at $1 million, well, we've done our due diligence

and we believe this won't be a problem going forward, but it's so true.

Like the lens through which they view all of these transactions is an economic one.

And I think that people forget hockey is the game, but the NHL is the business.

And that's what if a team sees at $1 million, a guy who could potentially make

a positive impact, even though he probably won't be there for your playoff run, a

positive impact, at least down the stretch for you, they will take a chance on a

Evander Kane and they don't necessarily care about all the baggage, especially if

maybe you're just saying, Hey man, prove it.

You get the rest of this year or someone might offer him a second year.

Um, you know, but buyer beware.

If that's the direction you want to go and in a way, um, I want

to get Klingberg in here too.

I know we've been talking about this for a minute, but, uh, Klingberg

the more I think about this.

So he's 30 years old and he is not the feature defenseman in Dallas anymore.

More information's come out.

He's looking for an eight year deal while he's 29.

He'll be 30 when the contract kicks in next season.

So he's looking for an eight year deal.

He wants someone to sign them until he's 38 years old.

He wants big money, way too much money for even what he's producing.

Now, let alone buying all of his thirties, which I always think is

a huge mistake in a contract, man.

I don't want to invest heavy in a guy beyond 33 34 max.

Mike: No, of course not.

Tom: I and max, so him saying he wants out and, and saying, well, trade me right now.

Um, Okay.

And apparently this is not new.

He's been saying he's wanted out for a while.

He's just finally gone public with it.

At the beginning of the season, there was kind of a sense from Klingberg.

He wasn't going to be there.

They didn't want them long-term okay.

Um, but that's the other thing too, is this unrealistic expectation

of, well, I need to be signed to a long-term deal and everybody wants that

long term deal and agents tell their players, they can get a long-term deal.

And the problem is someone will give it to them.

Somehow someone will give him maybe five or six or one odd ball.

We'll give him seven.

I don't understand how or why, but that's the problem is somehow we

have to continue to save general managers also from themselves,

which doesn't help the situation.

And then they have to go bail themselves out later from these horrible contracts.

That's not the players fault.

Mike: Oh Tom.

I think the biggest problem, I think any fan.

Uh, and maybe even other players and maybe even general managers can understand

a player saying, I want more money.

I want security.

I want this deal.

I think the problem is, and this is where the NHL is going.

It's the words I don't feel appreciated.

I think that's the problem that rubs people the wrong way.

If you are a fan and you're paying $150 to watch a game, and you're

watching this multimillion dollar guy play a sport and you, and he

says, I don't feel appreciated.

I think that turns people off, but.

Again, I thought long and hard about this.

And I thought this is where we're at in our society and in sports where

guys who were paid all this money and they feel that they're not appreciated

and they don't, and they're not afraid to say it out loud in the public.

That is, uh, that is an amazing change in the National Hockey League.

I'm not saying that for years there weren't players who thought

I don't, I'm not appreciated.

But wow.

Now these guys feel comfortable and fine saying it out loud and I think.

We're going to go through a period where fans are just turned off by it.

Other general managers turn off, but I think we're, we're, we're headed down that

road where these players are not afraid to just say those kinds of things, and it's

going to become more and more accepted.

We're going to see more and more movement with guys who

are looking for greener grass.

And we're looking at a big transition period here in the National Hockey

League.

Tom: And, you know, I think that is the paradigm shift that's happening

in just corporate America too uh, employees are saying, you know what?

I don't feel appreciated or valued for working 80 hours a week when

it's only supposed to be 40.

And the reward oftentimes is not, here's a raise here's more

vacation or anything like that.

It's Hey, I'm going to heap more work on you, because the people

around you can't handle the work.

That's your reward, burn yourself out.

So you know it, and I'm not saying it's the same.

A Klingberg Klingberg is not burning himself out in the Dallas Stars defense,

but this is a mindset change that I think you're right there is rise to

the comfort level of expressing these feelings now and with pro athletes where

there's millions of dollars on the line.

I think agents may even be encouraging guys.

Hey.

If you don't think you're getting what you want right now, be vocal about it

because there might be a GM out there who's like quietly behind the scenes,

or maybe not so quietly, but let's say, I don't know, Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit,

somebody looking for a defenseman likes Klingberg calls and says, you know what?

Um, I know Klingberg is a bit of a problem for you guys in Dallas.

Let's, let's kind of work something out and, you know, we'll make that

deal this year and then see if we can get it for the long run.

Or maybe somebody wants it.

He wouldn't be a bad rental at 30 years old for, to Edmonton.

Would you, would you put John Klingberg on Edmonton

I know he's an offensive defenseman, more so than, than really a shutdown

guy, but, man, that's, that's better.

Tell me Klingberg it would not be among the top six defensemen

on the Edmonton Oilers.

I think there'd be.

Mike: Yeah, no, no, I, I'm not saying there's not interest and I'm

not saying that somebody, somebody is going to give him some money.

I don't know if he, if he has to go somewhere else, he only gets a

seven-year deal, but that's still a long time, but somebody is going to

give him some money and somebody who's going to give him some years and it,

and this is gonna work out for him.

And there's not going to be blow back on him saying, I don't feel appreciated.

He's going to get his money.

That's just the era we live in.

And I can be the, you know, the old guy in the corner, not wanting the kids

running in my grass and say that you read article after article about young.

Kids coming into the workforce, out of college who have been spoiled to

death who don't understand work ethic.

And they just think that they're just going to come out and automatically get

paid a lot of money and have it easy.

And in the real world is not like that.

But boy, things are changing.

Uh, and that's what's happening now in the NHL and you watch so, so if

Klingberg , let's let let's let's you and I really keep an eye on

this and see what happens with him.

And if he ends up going somewhere else and getting a big contract

long-term and, if you got to think that there are players in the league

that go well, that worked out for him.

He didn't, he got his money and he's, I, you know what?

I don't feel appreciated.

I wonder, let, let you, and I need to keep an eye on this and say here, here

was a real turning point in the NHL.

When, if, if this works out well for Klingberg, if there's other

players that want to follow

suit,

Tom: I'llI give you my three quick targets in order for Klingberg

number one, Montreal number two Ottawa and number three, Arizona,

Mike: they've all got money

to spend.

Right.

Tom: Yep.

They do in Montreal.

I could see maybe wanting the veteran guy, Ottawa, uh, you know,

in Arizona is gonna throw contracts at somebody to try to get him to

come down there or wherever they are.

Mike: Do you really think Arizona?

I thought they just wanted to go really young.

I mean, I know they need to save some money to get to the floor,

but I think they just want it.

They want to be bad, right.

For, for a few years and spend the minimum out.

They had.

Have young players grow together.

I mean, that's the plan for Armstrong, right?

I don't know.

I don't know if Klingberg fits into that.

Tom: He did talk about needing to have some veterans on that team though,

because you can't have a bunch of 24 year olds leading each other around.

That's not good for development.

Mike: Nope.

No, no.

Especially when you're not winning.

Tom: Right.

Mike: Because that then everybody, everybody then has a whole,

just the malaise of losing.

Tom: Right.

Mike: And it's, it's hard to break out of that if that's all you've had in

the early part of your career and you have no veteran guys who are go, Hey,

this things are going to get better.

Hang in there when it's just young guys losing it's easy then to

just have everything fall apart.

So we'll, we'll see how that one plays up, but I think you're right.

Tom: It could open the gateway to more people and not the

players don't express it.

They're unhappy now.

And sometimes they do it through their agent.

And we know Alan Walsh loves to use his social media case in point the

Marc Andre Fleury situation last year and the year before with the whole

graphic, with the sword, sticking through Fleury with the word DeBoer on it.

Um, and so some are a little more overt than others, but Mike, this could be

interesting because look at some point.

Contracts are contracts.

And unless we decide to go the way the, the NFL, which I can't see the

NHL PA ever doing where contracts are not guaranteed, and you can be cut

at any time until we reach that day and age, guys are gonna have to, you

know, make their demands vocal and, and sometimes plead their case in the public.

And maybe they're getting more comfortable with that.

And we're going to see a lot more of that.

Mike: Well, I, I think again, let's keep an eye on what happens with Klingberg

and then, uh, if, if other players, you know, next summer start voicing

their opinion that they are unhappy.

Tom: All right, well, that'll do it for this edition of the talking puck podcast.

So that's my

**unintelligible**

Mike: we're not unhappy.

Tom: We love doing this thing.

You want to tell Mike how unhappy you are?

Get him on Twitter at Buster, the dog 33

yeah, all the time.

Mike: I'm not a psychologist.

I just play one on the podcast.

Tom: That's right.

Mike, we'll work out all of your problems, mental, physical, and then tell you

you're wrong and why you're wrong.

That's right.

That's right.

And you can always get me @ Callahan on air.

On Twitter.

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All right, everybody.

Thanks for joining us, Mike and I, Dr.

Mike, Dr.

Tom, we will talk to you next time.