1 00:00:02,939 --> 00:00:05,789 Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a 2 00:00:05,789 --> 00:00:09,449 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,479 --> 00:00:13,799 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework. 4 00:00:16,890 --> 00:00:18,960 Jonathan Schneider: I wonder if others feel the same way, but I 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,590 just know that I missed the experience of being able to sit 6 00:00:22,590 --> 00:00:25,620 next to someone not necessarily pair programming, one keyboard 7 00:00:25,620 --> 00:00:29,820 and one monitor but being engaged throny in solving a 8 00:00:29,820 --> 00:00:30,780 problem together. 9 00:00:33,750 --> 00:00:36,270 Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member 10 00:00:36,270 --> 00:00:40,260 experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps 11 00:00:40,260 --> 00:00:45,900 podcast. Welcome back. Hope you had a great week. I am very 12 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:49,290 excited for today's episode. I know I say that every week. And 13 00:00:49,290 --> 00:00:51,810 it's true. I'm excited for every episode, believe it or not, I'm 14 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:56,430 a very excitable person. But today's episode I'm like, extra 15 00:00:56,850 --> 00:01:00,540 excited for this is it's completely outside of what I 16 00:01:00,540 --> 00:01:06,330 would say my reality. What I've had in the past, you know, my 17 00:01:06,330 --> 00:01:10,770 regular reality. This week, we're going to step into virtual 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,810 reality. The Metaverse and we're not in no one's sponsoring this. 19 00:01:15,810 --> 00:01:20,070 So sorry, Zack, you don't get any credit for this. But with me 20 00:01:20,070 --> 00:01:23,640 today, my guests, I'm going to talk about who my guest is 21 00:01:23,670 --> 00:01:28,500 shortly. But let me paint you a picture. The image of the 22 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:32,910 developer is sitting alone at his or her desk headphones on 23 00:01:32,940 --> 00:01:37,590 coding at all hours of the night. But the reality is that 24 00:01:37,590 --> 00:01:39,660 there is significant collaboration and software 25 00:01:39,660 --> 00:01:42,870 development, which involves multiple software programmers 26 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:46,170 and architects writing and editing diagrams and code 27 00:01:46,170 --> 00:01:49,230 together on a whiteboard. And this type of work just doesn't 28 00:01:49,230 --> 00:01:53,130 lend itself to share Google Docs or Zoom video of a whiteboard. 29 00:01:53,490 --> 00:01:57,150 This virtual barrier to collaboration can result in 30 00:01:57,150 --> 00:02:00,420 wasted time ineffective frameworks for software code, 31 00:02:00,570 --> 00:02:04,560 and poor execution. So faced with this problem, our guest 32 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,500 today Jonathan Schneider, who's the co founder and CEO of 33 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:11,790 moderne, viewed virtual reality as a potential way to overcome 34 00:02:11,790 --> 00:02:14,370 these issues of the remote workforce in software 35 00:02:14,370 --> 00:02:19,500 development. How did he do it? Using inexpensive headsets and 36 00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:24,240 new VR software, the modern team is now conducting daily 30 37 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,080 minute stand up meetings in VR, which leads to hours of code 38 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,780 creation involving the best ideas and approaches of the 39 00:02:30,780 --> 00:02:34,680 team, the quality of the code has already improved. Jonathan 40 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,340 has a number of new ideas for further improving. And guess 41 00:02:38,340 --> 00:02:42,690 what he's here to tell us some of that some of his ideas on 42 00:02:42,690 --> 00:02:46,470 today's episode. So this is going to be I turn up the 43 00:02:46,470 --> 00:02:49,140 volume, because you're gonna want to hear this, trust me. 44 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,030 Jonathan was nice enough to send me a headset, and I got the jump 45 00:02:54,030 --> 00:02:56,520 in the virtual reality. We're going to talk about that. But 46 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,490 first, let me tell you about Jonathan. So prior to co 47 00:02:59,490 --> 00:03:02,820 founding moderne, Jonathan lead the engineering effort around 48 00:03:02,820 --> 00:03:06,390 large scale automated code refactoring at Netflix, where he 49 00:03:06,390 --> 00:03:10,170 founded the open source open rewrite project on the spring 50 00:03:10,170 --> 00:03:13,920 team at Pivotal. He led the site reliability engineering team and 51 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:17,460 founded the popular Java metrics library micrometre. He's the 52 00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:21,570 author of O'Reilly's SRE with Java microservices. And 53 00:03:21,570 --> 00:03:26,190 Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm 54 00:03:26,190 --> 00:03:28,380 excited to do this. I hope you are. 55 00:03:28,949 --> 00:03:30,989 Jonathan Schneider: I absolutely am. I'm just I, there's so many 56 00:03:30,989 --> 00:03:33,239 things we have to talk about. I'm not even sure we're going to 57 00:03:33,239 --> 00:03:35,849 start but we're gonna, we're gonna make an attempt here. And 58 00:03:35,849 --> 00:03:35,999 we 59 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,020 Jason Baum: neither that's the fun. We're just gonna dive in. 60 00:03:40,230 --> 00:03:43,590 And I always start the podcast by saying, are you ready to get 61 00:03:43,590 --> 00:03:48,330 human? And in this instance, of the humans of DevOps, I'm almost 62 00:03:48,810 --> 00:03:53,700 kind of maybe we should get virtual. No, no, we should we 63 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:57,300 should get I mean, and it's so funny because Jonathan, this is 64 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:00,510 the first time we are speaking to each other. And you know, we 65 00:04:00,510 --> 00:04:03,240 don't usually do a video component of this podcast, but 66 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,270 we do for those listeners and breaking down the fourth wall. 67 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:09,210 But we do have our videos on I am talking to you and I can see 68 00:04:09,210 --> 00:04:12,840 you. And this is my first time seeing you in real life. 69 00:04:13,020 --> 00:04:14,880 Jonathan Schneider: Right and your avatar first. 70 00:04:15,210 --> 00:04:18,000 Jason Baum: Yeah, you met my avatar. First I met your avatar 71 00:04:18,030 --> 00:04:21,540 first in the in the virtual world. And my goodness, it's 72 00:04:21,540 --> 00:04:24,300 jarring. It's so different. I feel like I know your your 73 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:30,330 cartoon version. So much better. So welcome to the podcast. Are 74 00:04:30,330 --> 00:04:36,600 you ready to get human ish? Let's get you in. So, Jonathan, 75 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,730 first, I guess the biggest question is why right? Why? Why 76 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,110 virtual reality? Why did you choose virtual reality for your 77 00:04:46,110 --> 00:04:46,590 team? 78 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:49,650 Jonathan Schneider: It's a social art really, is what it 79 00:04:49,650 --> 00:04:51,900 is. It's definitely a form of art, but it's definitely a 80 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:54,240 social one as well. Multiple people, like you mentioned 81 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:59,040 earlier work together on the same project. It evolves with 82 00:04:59,070 --> 00:05:01,740 multiple people work Working on it has to be maintained by 83 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:05,700 multiple people working on it. And so just any, anytime there's 84 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:11,670 going to be a new opportunity to engage in a different way, I 85 00:05:11,670 --> 00:05:16,350 think we have to give it a shot. And I was pretty skeptical when 86 00:05:16,350 --> 00:05:21,300 I first you know, I encountered the I think I, you know, I 87 00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:24,300 watched Zuckerberg announcement of the name change the meta, and 88 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:27,690 the three minute presentation he gave where he jumped into a room 89 00:05:27,690 --> 00:05:32,070 and I thought, No way, right? It didn't make any sense to me. But 90 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,600 I think you need somebody that you trust to kind of say, give 91 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,140 this a shot. And for me, I was listening to another podcast or 92 00:05:40,140 --> 00:05:42,510 tetra, and they were talking about VR, and they were talking 93 00:05:42,510 --> 00:05:45,360 more about more of the business where, you know, we feel like 94 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,230 virtual reality is actually going to start in the, in the 95 00:05:49,230 --> 00:05:51,660 enterprise, you know, with companies shipping out these 96 00:05:51,660 --> 00:05:55,050 devices, and then move more to consumer. And I thought, well, 97 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:58,890 if this is going to be one of these, you know, changes that 98 00:05:58,890 --> 00:06:02,190 happens in the way we work, where you know, you can be the 99 00:06:02,190 --> 00:06:06,540 first company adopting a PC, then we need to be one of those 100 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:09,750 companies. So we need to give it a shot. That's where we just 101 00:06:09,750 --> 00:06:11,220 made this low cost investment. 102 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,860 Jason Baum: Yeah, it's extremely forward thinking but like you 103 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:17,160 said, it's low cost investment to at least try. So I think that 104 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,750 was, you know, that's, that's, I guess, very forward thinking of 105 00:06:21,750 --> 00:06:27,030 you to do it. And, you know, because it's one of those things 106 00:06:27,030 --> 00:06:32,040 now that having observed it and lived in in the virtual reality 107 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,640 and participated, it is one of those things that for me, I 108 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,640 didn't get it until I put on the headset, yeah, I really didn't 109 00:06:38,670 --> 00:06:43,050 understand it. It's hard to, it's very hard. But once I 110 00:06:43,050 --> 00:06:49,380 popped into the we met, and we sat in a work, it looked like an 111 00:06:49,380 --> 00:06:53,640 office, in a conference room, you pop in, you know, I popped 112 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,550 into a team meeting that you had, and I got to meet your co 113 00:06:56,550 --> 00:07:00,900 workers. And we were sitting at a conference table, looking at a 114 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:03,720 whiteboard, or actually, there was also the circuit, we could 115 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,080 meet in a circle, you could change the room line layout, but 116 00:07:07,110 --> 00:07:12,720 it felt like I was very present. Like you were all present. And 117 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,590 we were actually in the same space sharing a space to gather, 118 00:07:16,860 --> 00:07:20,160 which I guess for me is my biggest takeaway is, I haven't 119 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,760 really had that experience in a very long time, I haven't met in 120 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,420 person with people in quite a bit. And that's something that 121 00:07:27,420 --> 00:07:29,130 you just can't get from a Zoom meeting. 122 00:07:30,150 --> 00:07:32,310 Jonathan Schneider: And you do really feel like somebody is 123 00:07:32,340 --> 00:07:35,850 present next to you. There's spatial audio. So if they're to 124 00:07:35,850 --> 00:07:37,770 your right, they sound like they're to your right, if 125 00:07:37,770 --> 00:07:40,920 they're behind you the sound like they're behind you. It's 126 00:07:40,950 --> 00:07:46,020 differential and volume, it's, you see gestures from their 127 00:07:46,020 --> 00:07:50,850 facial expressions and body movements and hand gestures, 128 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:55,080 it's it's very realistic in that fashion, all while looking 129 00:07:55,230 --> 00:07:56,100 cartoonish 130 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,610 Jason Baum: at this, right. It looks cartoonish. But someone 131 00:07:59,610 --> 00:08:02,580 had pointed out, one of your team members have pointed out 132 00:08:02,610 --> 00:08:05,040 that even though it was cartoonish, it felt more real 133 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,840 than than zoom. And, and I I do tend to agree with that now is 134 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,300 that even though like, for example, we're having this 135 00:08:12,300 --> 00:08:16,290 conversation, I'm looking at you, and we're over zoom, again, 136 00:08:16,290 --> 00:08:19,170 breaking down that fourth, fourth wall, but I think it's 137 00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:24,210 important in this conversation, I actually felt like we were 138 00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:30,240 closer in space. And it was a different conversation. In a 139 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,780 virtual world, where I felt like, you know, you could get up 140 00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:37,260 and you could walk to the whiteboard. And all the focus 141 00:08:37,260 --> 00:08:40,290 was on you. And everyone was paying attention to what you had 142 00:08:40,290 --> 00:08:44,370 to say. And you could lead a conversation you could draw on 143 00:08:44,370 --> 00:08:48,420 the whiteboard, and everyone's present. And I think the the 144 00:08:48,420 --> 00:08:52,200 being present piece again, at least to me was was so 145 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,680 different, is that the impact that you've seen on like your 146 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:58,530 team meetings, for example, how has it impacted those? 147 00:08:59,130 --> 00:09:01,650 Jonathan Schneider: I do, I remember one of the first, you 148 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:05,790 know, group meetings of more than two people, I suppose that 149 00:09:05,790 --> 00:09:11,460 we had in there. And you can have a, a, you know, visual of 150 00:09:11,460 --> 00:09:15,030 your screen, your laptop screen in front of you, you can have a 151 00:09:15,030 --> 00:09:17,850 keyboard in front of you. And you could absolutely be typing 152 00:09:17,850 --> 00:09:21,540 away on that, you know, on on your computer and doing other 153 00:09:21,540 --> 00:09:23,730 work. And I think we do that on zoom all the time, right, 154 00:09:23,730 --> 00:09:26,550 because I can have my video on but I not really watching it, I 155 00:09:26,550 --> 00:09:29,550 could be doing some background work and still appear the same 156 00:09:29,550 --> 00:09:33,750 way. But it just really occurred to me that they're in that room. 157 00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:37,170 If I'm typing on my keyboard, and my colleague to my left is 158 00:09:37,170 --> 00:09:41,100 talking, they can see me typing on my keyboard and looking at my 159 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:44,850 screen instead of looking at them. So it actually kind of 160 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,080 forces you in many ways. Just the the social norm would be 161 00:09:49,530 --> 00:09:52,590 that you look at the person that's that's speaking to you 162 00:09:52,620 --> 00:09:55,950 and you can't fake it like you can in this 2d world. You 163 00:09:55,950 --> 00:09:59,760 actually have to turn and face them and give them your full 164 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:00,000 attention. 165 00:10:00,359 --> 00:10:02,819 Jason Baum: Yeah, for the audience at that's, that's 166 00:10:02,819 --> 00:10:06,329 fascinating. Yeah, I think that is a big piece is we don't have 167 00:10:06,329 --> 00:10:10,109 eye contact in zoom, right? Unless you're one on one. And 168 00:10:10,109 --> 00:10:13,229 even if there's eye contact, you don't really have eye contact, 169 00:10:13,229 --> 00:10:15,689 because it depends on where the camera is depends on where you 170 00:10:15,689 --> 00:10:19,619 are, you're looking at yourself, too. There's so many things that 171 00:10:19,619 --> 00:10:23,009 get in the way. But in the virtual world, you actually do, 172 00:10:23,039 --> 00:10:27,029 it does feel like you're making eye contact with people. You 173 00:10:27,029 --> 00:10:30,869 could shake your head, you could give hand gestures, thumbs up, 174 00:10:30,869 --> 00:10:34,769 thumbs down air quotes, all the things that yeah, I almost want 175 00:10:34,769 --> 00:10:37,049 to go back in now and test it with you guys. Can we give a 176 00:10:37,049 --> 00:10:40,859 fist bump? I think or a high five? I don't I don't know. 177 00:10:40,859 --> 00:10:45,089 Shake hands. Yeah, seems like it. And that is that is a 178 00:10:45,089 --> 00:10:48,689 missing piece of conversation is eye contact. That's right. Yeah. 179 00:10:48,689 --> 00:10:48,869 So 180 00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:50,460 Jonathan Schneider: the gestures are accurate enough that you 181 00:10:50,460 --> 00:10:54,240 really can tell what people intend through body gestures. In 182 00:10:54,420 --> 00:10:57,930 the very first time, I was in the room and somebody else 183 00:10:57,930 --> 00:11:01,590 joined from the outside, they joined when and just for the 184 00:11:01,590 --> 00:11:05,100 Odyssey understand, somebody else can join without a VR 185 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:08,970 headset. And to the people in the room, it appears like 186 00:11:08,970 --> 00:11:11,610 they're just on television screen inside the room. It's 187 00:11:11,730 --> 00:11:15,780 like a zoom, like a zoom, like a grid of people just like zoom in 188 00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:18,210 the room. And everybody else is, you know, physically in the 189 00:11:18,210 --> 00:11:23,040 room. So that's, that's how that works. And so that was my first 190 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,410 interaction with somebody in VR, I was actually in the VR Room. 191 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,640 And the team member joining me was actually through this like 192 00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:33,720 zoom like interface. And of course, audio wasn't working. I 193 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,030 mean, we aren't, we're all used to shorted zoom in our audio 194 00:11:36,030 --> 00:11:38,670 doesn't work. And our mic doesn't work or whatever. And so 195 00:11:38,670 --> 00:11:41,040 I could hear him, but he couldn't hear me. And so he's 196 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,750 saying, can you hear me? And so I had no way of communicating 197 00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:47,340 with him because he couldn't hear me. So I just started 198 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:50,010 nodding my head. Yes. And I didn't even think about it. I 199 00:11:50,010 --> 00:11:54,240 just it was my natural. That's what I would do. You know, I was 200 00:11:54,270 --> 00:11:58,860 and, and he said, Oh, this is a weird moment where I can see 201 00:11:58,860 --> 00:12:04,200 your cartoonish avatar, not happy, but I can't hear what 202 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:04,800 you're saying. 203 00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:06,989 Jason Baum: How surreal is it? Yeah, you could give him a 204 00:12:06,989 --> 00:12:13,379 thumbs up too. Absolutely. Yeah. So so how has it like is it 205 00:12:13,439 --> 00:12:19,229 improved? Because of the difference of how communication 206 00:12:19,229 --> 00:12:22,109 is happening? Is that what's making it more productive for 207 00:12:22,109 --> 00:12:26,279 your team? What's the direct tie to your to the improvement? Do 208 00:12:26,279 --> 00:12:26,789 you think? 209 00:12:27,210 --> 00:12:30,510 Jonathan Schneider: I think we just a relay, one of them from 210 00:12:30,510 --> 00:12:34,740 last week, I was, there was a problem that was confronting us, 211 00:12:34,740 --> 00:12:39,000 you know, kind of a mini production outage. And I joined 212 00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:43,560 one of my colleagues also named John in the room, and we just 213 00:12:43,710 --> 00:12:47,100 were working on this problem. And so I had projected my screen 214 00:12:47,130 --> 00:12:50,280 on the whiteboard, just it's kind of like a massive screen is 215 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,310 basically what you see in the whiteboard. And John sitting 216 00:12:53,310 --> 00:12:55,800 next to me looking at his computer screen, he can see my 217 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,840 screen on the whiteboard. So it's kind of like we're sitting 218 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,090 side by side. And we're working on this problem, which is 219 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:05,760 already cool. And already a unique feeling. But another team 220 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,920 member of ours, Kevin just popped into the room thinking 221 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,820 now maybe I could help. And quickly he finds that, you know, 222 00:13:11,820 --> 00:13:13,560 we're really engrossed in the problem, he doesn't really 223 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:17,280 understand the the detail of it necessarily. And so he just 224 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,070 started working on whatever he was working on. But he's 225 00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:23,160 remained in the room. And he was we could see him just type in 226 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,920 way over there kind of minding his own business. But 227 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,820 interestingly, like he was you kind of whenever you're present 228 00:13:29,820 --> 00:13:33,210 with someone, you gain somewhat through osmosis, like some 229 00:13:33,210 --> 00:13:35,190 knowledge about what's happening, even if you're not 230 00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:38,160 like fully paying attention. I've never had that experience. 231 00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:42,030 On a on a zoom, you know, you could be screen sharing, but you 232 00:13:42,030 --> 00:13:44,880 know, I can't be also working on something and watching the 233 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,630 screen share at the same time. And here. It's just that's just 234 00:13:48,630 --> 00:13:49,500 kind of the default. 235 00:13:49,919 --> 00:13:52,799 Jason Baum: It's almost like walking into a conference room 236 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:56,159 in the office and just even in just plopping yourself down, 237 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:59,039 right. And maybe there's another meeting going on, if it's an 238 00:13:59,039 --> 00:14:01,649 open door, you know, to the conference room, sometimes that 239 00:14:01,649 --> 00:14:07,049 happens, you walk in you sit down, and in a way it kind of we 240 00:14:07,049 --> 00:14:09,209 didn't talk about this, but maybe it's almost like a silo 241 00:14:09,209 --> 00:14:12,629 breaker in some respects because someone could be having that 242 00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:14,369 caught you you're in your teammate could have been having 243 00:14:14,369 --> 00:14:17,309 a conversation, maybe Kevin could have said, You know what, 244 00:14:17,309 --> 00:14:21,719 actually, you know, this didn't happen because of X and throw 245 00:14:21,719 --> 00:14:24,659 in, you know, a solution that you would have taken like two 246 00:14:24,659 --> 00:14:28,739 weeks probably to get to over just zoom for example, he would 247 00:14:28,739 --> 00:14:30,509 have to plan a meeting meet about it. 248 00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:34,440 Jonathan Schneider: There's a dynamic and I think it's a 249 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:41,160 similar. So I spent many years in the Army and very early on 250 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,690 when I was training with this group. The officer that was 251 00:14:45,690 --> 00:14:48,690 leading this Training we did he liked running a lot. So he would 252 00:14:48,690 --> 00:14:52,410 do a run every morning a long run. And he just you could self 253 00:14:52,410 --> 00:14:57,300 select into an a group, B group or C group. And you know, it's 254 00:14:57,300 --> 00:15:00,870 just depend on your speed. And so People that are really 255 00:15:00,870 --> 00:15:03,480 competitive or really strong are going to be in a house of people 256 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,740 are not going to see. And, you know, I, I hadn't done a lot of 257 00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:11,550 like, played sports much before that. So I like, fell right into 258 00:15:11,550 --> 00:15:14,700 the be very competitive person but not clearly not in a group 259 00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:17,400 yet. And I like really wanting to be, you know, in this age 260 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,250 group. And I remember him saying like, you know, if you want to 261 00:15:20,250 --> 00:15:24,600 be in a group, start every day in a group, and we're all 262 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,350 running the same route, so we just go with them as long as you 263 00:15:28,350 --> 00:15:31,080 possibly can. And when you can't take it anymore, you just fall 264 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,660 back to B and run with B, the remainder of the time, right? 265 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,500 But then every day, strive to go a little bit further and a 266 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:39,630 little bit further. And one day, you're gonna get to the halfway 267 00:15:39,630 --> 00:15:41,340 mark and wonder you're gonna get to the three quarter mark. 268 00:15:41,820 --> 00:15:44,580 Actually, I feel like there's a similar dynamic in in soft, 269 00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:49,200 there's so many skills to learn, and so much about how we think 270 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,640 and how we reason about problems and how we hypothesize, make and 271 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,820 test hypotheses very quickly, that I think a more junior 272 00:15:56,820 --> 00:16:01,890 member of the team actually. Like just being present helps 273 00:16:01,890 --> 00:16:04,260 them feel like they can kind of like run with a group for a 274 00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:07,200 little while, and then it's theirs, they could absolutely 275 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,540 just like start typing something else, right, kind of fall back 276 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:11,760 to me. And that's I think there's that dynamic as well. 277 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,960 Jason Baum: Do you find that some people who might be less 278 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,830 vocal on Zoom suddenly become more vocal in the VR Room? 279 00:16:21,029 --> 00:16:24,869 Jonathan Schneider: What I've noticed is, you know, is they 280 00:16:24,869 --> 00:16:31,409 don't notice, you know, that somebody that's very quiet on 281 00:16:31,409 --> 00:16:36,779 Zoom, also winds up being very quiet room. So it's, yeah, in 282 00:16:36,779 --> 00:16:38,999 many ways reflective of their personalities. 283 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,630 Jason Baum: Yeah, it what's, what's interesting about the VR 284 00:16:42,630 --> 00:16:47,940 space is, you know, there, with Zoom, we're very, we're opening 285 00:16:47,940 --> 00:16:51,480 up our world, you can have a fake background, I use a fake 286 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,180 background. And that's, you know, it looks fake. And, you 287 00:16:54,180 --> 00:16:57,030 know, you see yourself and it's not perfect, and we don't all 288 00:16:57,030 --> 00:17:03,330 have green screens. But it's 2d, in the in the virtual world, 289 00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:06,540 which is obviously 3d. It feels more realistic, even though 290 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:08,580 we're we're looking at cartoons, but we're also not letting 291 00:17:08,580 --> 00:17:12,840 ourselves are we, we don't have to look at ourselves the whole 292 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,540 time. You know, in zoom, you feel the Zoom fatigue, right? 293 00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:19,890 That doesn't exist in the VR world. I noticed it doesn't, it 294 00:17:19,890 --> 00:17:24,330 doesn't feel like that. Anyway, I'm so engaged in what everybody 295 00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:27,510 else is talking about it I'm so engaged in the conversation and 296 00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:32,850 being present, that it doesn't feel like I'm experiencing that, 297 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:38,760 do you find that your meetings are shorter longer, you know, do 298 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,760 you tend to just get carried away being in there. 299 00:17:42,510 --> 00:17:44,430 Jonathan Schneider: I think one useful feature right now is the 300 00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:47,940 battery life is not amazing, you can get about an hour and a 301 00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:53,580 half, maybe on and it is wireless. So in many ways, it's 302 00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:57,120 good, because it kind of limits you charge it very quickly and 303 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,680 be back in again. But we tend to use it in a very ad hoc fashion, 304 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,490 just you know, will pop in there will pop out. Just know. And 305 00:18:07,290 --> 00:18:09,960 it's almost like I know, there's been a debate that's raged for 306 00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:13,350 forever, and probably always will about whether cubicles or 307 00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:18,030 offices or open floor plan is a better arrangement. And the 308 00:18:18,060 --> 00:18:20,220 arguments are obvious, you know, open floor plan, more 309 00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:25,140 collaboration, office cubicle, more quiet time privacy sort of 310 00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:28,230 thing. Feel like in many ways here, we kind of get the best of 311 00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:31,140 both worlds, it's when you want the open floor plan, you pop 312 00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:34,350 into the room, when you want the private space, you just simply 313 00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:37,830 take off the headset and you're in his private as in spaces you 314 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:42,750 want to be Yeah, for me, I'm very social. So I have always 315 00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:46,650 done this, I've always I have a 13 inch MacBook not a 16 inch 316 00:18:46,650 --> 00:18:50,820 MacBook because I'm move all the time, I'll pick up the laptop 317 00:18:50,820 --> 00:18:53,340 and I'll go to a coffee shop and then a library and then another 318 00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:56,400 coffee shop and then you just like to be surrounded. But I 319 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,610 know not everybody is that way you really get to choose your 320 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,240 alternative reality outside of the virtual reality, whatever it 321 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:03,690 may be. 322 00:19:04,020 --> 00:19:06,120 Jason Baum: Do you have office hours, like standing office 323 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:08,160 hours in the VR environment? I think that 324 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,740 Jonathan Schneider: would be wise. And we haven't formalized 325 00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:16,560 that yet. But I know that you know, we've had we have had some 326 00:19:16,590 --> 00:19:18,420 you know, early experiences or something like popped in and 327 00:19:18,420 --> 00:19:21,030 nobody was there. And so you know, when do you know to join 328 00:19:21,030 --> 00:19:23,370 and so I think that would be really helpful. 329 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,420 Jason Baum: Today's episode of the humans of DevOps podcast is 330 00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:31,440 sponsored by collide collide is an endpoint security solution 331 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,590 that sends your employees important and timely security 332 00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:38,430 recommendations for their Linux, Mac and Windows devices. Right 333 00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:42,330 inside Slack. 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Yeah, we were throwing around some ideas of 344 00:20:32,010 --> 00:20:36,300 uses of the VR Room because I feel like there's so many and 345 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:39,000 you know, when we were when I was giving my intro here, you 346 00:20:39,030 --> 00:20:42,420 must have a ton that you've you know, through your experience, 347 00:20:42,570 --> 00:20:43,980 how long have you guys been using it? 348 00:20:44,220 --> 00:20:47,880 Jonathan Schneider: We? So I'll explain also how we rolled it 349 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:54,300 out and first headset in November, again, very skeptical. 350 00:20:54,390 --> 00:20:57,150 I'm not a gamer, I don't like I haven't done a lot of these 351 00:20:57,150 --> 00:21:01,140 things. I wouldn't actually be inclined to it. But I bought 352 00:21:01,140 --> 00:21:05,700 one. And it was sent to my and I put it on because I had heard 353 00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:08,610 like, well, there's some rough edges. How rough for these rough 354 00:21:08,610 --> 00:21:13,710 edges? Like how well can I see the text on my screen? Does it 355 00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:16,380 make you dizzy, you know, these sort of things. So just bought 356 00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:21,660 one there about $300 $300 investment. The first person to 357 00:21:21,660 --> 00:21:24,240 join me in the room actually joined remotely through the Zoom 358 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,330 like interface. So that was our first test of that level of 359 00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:31,260 communication. Then I bought two more. And so didn't roll it 360 00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:35,220 immediately out to the whole team bought two more that group 361 00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:39,300 that first three people, like figured out some of the 362 00:21:39,330 --> 00:21:42,870 mechanics of this, how do you tune fine tune the display? How 363 00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:47,040 do you get the software working? Do we get extra peripherals, you 364 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,850 know, these sort of things? And, you know, then we rolled it out 365 00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:55,020 to the next group. So just did it incrementally. So November is 366 00:21:55,020 --> 00:21:59,730 when we started that process. And I would say about you know, 367 00:21:59,730 --> 00:22:01,860 Christmas is when we started shipping them out the whole 368 00:22:01,860 --> 00:22:02,160 team. 369 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:08,160 Jason Baum: Okay, so it's very new. Yeah. And how do the 370 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:13,410 employees feel this? Do you feel like because I think we're in 371 00:22:13,410 --> 00:22:15,960 the middle of everyone knows this, you know, this is such a 372 00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:18,600 strange time when you can have employees from anywhere in the 373 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,600 world, you can find any job and you it doesn't matter where you 374 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,440 live anymore. You can work, you know, in Shanghai and be in New 375 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,800 York and, and vice versa. Do you? Do you think this gives you 376 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,340 somewhat of a competitive edge? Do employees really like this as 377 00:22:32,340 --> 00:22:33,150 a perk? 378 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,090 Jonathan Schneider: I think it's exactly as you'd expect. There's 379 00:22:36,090 --> 00:22:40,470 like a mixture of feelings about it. And you want to be sensitive 380 00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:42,000 to that there's so there's some people, they're going to be 381 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,640 like, oh, I want to try this right away, like, you know, and 382 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,630 some that like, you know, are gonna it's gonna take a while to 383 00:22:48,660 --> 00:22:52,470 you know, like, suspend disbelief. I think usually when 384 00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:58,080 somebody just for a moment suspends disbelief and comes in 385 00:22:59,070 --> 00:23:01,530 that tends to be a moment where they're like, Oh, I see where 386 00:23:01,530 --> 00:23:05,130 this is, you know, I like it's just a very different experience 387 00:23:05,130 --> 00:23:06,300 than you would expect. 388 00:23:07,020 --> 00:23:11,100 Jason Baum: Suspending belief is gas so I want to go in with an 389 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:16,080 open mind I had no idea what to expect my only prior dabble in 390 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,460 virtual reality I was telling you is it was a virtual boy when 391 00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:24,780 that came out whenever in the 90s by Nintendo and it was very 392 00:23:24,810 --> 00:23:28,980 not virtual and it was just an eyesore made you sick after like 393 00:23:28,980 --> 00:23:31,800 10 minutes of putting it out. So that was my only experience with 394 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,850 virtual This is not Virtual Boy, this is this is legit virtual 395 00:23:35,850 --> 00:23:39,090 reality. I guess the definition right virtually I was looking 396 00:23:39,090 --> 00:23:43,050 this up a virtual reality is truly the suspense is is the 397 00:23:43,050 --> 00:23:48,540 departure your brain's departure from reality and and being in a 398 00:23:48,570 --> 00:23:54,180 in what it perceives as another place. And I after putting on 399 00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:59,550 that headset, it is real, you feel presence, you feel like you 400 00:23:59,550 --> 00:24:03,330 are there, I had to be really careful because I'm in a small 401 00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:07,320 office, all over the place. And it's very easy to walk into the 402 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,190 wall or knock something like they have safety measures, you 403 00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:14,730 got to set your boundary and all these others and there's pass 404 00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:18,450 through so you can actually see your desk or see the wall that 405 00:24:18,450 --> 00:24:21,510 you're about to hit. Sometimes it doesn't work. I gotta say I 406 00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:25,890 did knock over a few things while getting up to the lectern 407 00:24:25,890 --> 00:24:31,110 or whatever. But I think having that open mindset, you're 100% 408 00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:35,220 right, I for one, after coming in and doing it for the first 409 00:24:35,220 --> 00:24:39,930 time can't see how you wouldn't at least be like this is 410 00:24:39,930 --> 00:24:42,480 different. This feels different. 411 00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:44,580 Jonathan Schneider: It's different. And I think, you 412 00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:47,850 know, like resolution could be a little bit better latency could 413 00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:50,970 be a little bit better. These are the typical like this very 414 00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:58,170 much is first generation PC, but it's like viable at this point. 415 00:24:58,230 --> 00:25:01,590 I feel like enough that we do spend a certain number of hours 416 00:25:01,590 --> 00:25:06,630 every week in it by choice. And I can imagine the next next, you 417 00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:11,490 know, generation really being the one that's really hard to 418 00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:14,370 resist at that point. So it's, that's, I think that's the state 419 00:25:14,370 --> 00:25:16,380 of it. I think the next generation is coming out April 420 00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:21,660 or something like that. So just right around the corner. And I 421 00:25:21,660 --> 00:25:25,620 expect that's kind of just it's, it's definitely going this way. 422 00:25:25,799 --> 00:25:27,389 Jason Baum: Yeah, immediately, when we're in there. We're like, 423 00:25:27,419 --> 00:25:29,729 Oh, I wonder if we can have side conversations, it'd be great if 424 00:25:29,729 --> 00:25:32,729 there could be breakout rooms would be great. If there could, 425 00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:36,149 there's the door that doesn't move. We were joking. I was 426 00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:38,429 like, I wish I could George Costanza out of the room, you 427 00:25:38,429 --> 00:25:43,979 know, like, waved everybody and then peace. You know, or, you 428 00:25:43,979 --> 00:25:49,349 know, I think for events, there's a whole world that is, I 429 00:25:49,349 --> 00:25:52,019 don't know, I know, you can watch concerts and and I was 430 00:25:52,019 --> 00:25:53,999 looking at some of the other things that you could do with 431 00:25:53,999 --> 00:25:56,849 it. But that's not really the event, I'm thinking of, I'm 432 00:25:56,849 --> 00:25:59,849 thinking of networking events, like actually going into the 433 00:25:59,849 --> 00:26:02,729 room and tapping someone on the shoulder and interrupting a 434 00:26:02,729 --> 00:26:05,669 conversation, things we just don't have in virtual reality, 435 00:26:05,879 --> 00:26:09,329 or I'm sorry, in reality, with Zoom. 436 00:26:10,590 --> 00:26:13,440 Jonathan Schneider: Yeah, if you know, the next Java user group, 437 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,100 I do want to do, I think, present from this actually just 438 00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:19,680 open the invite anybody with a headset to join, and then 439 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,990 everybody else can join the other zoom sort of thing. So 440 00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:25,410 it's like, I think it could be an interesting way of presenting 441 00:26:25,410 --> 00:26:29,100 and be more connected to your, to your audience. We were 442 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:32,460 talking about something which, you know, you know, earlier, 443 00:26:32,460 --> 00:26:36,690 which I had an experience years ago, where a colleague of mine 444 00:26:36,690 --> 00:26:40,230 Deshawn, Carter, you know, who lived in Kansas City, just put a 445 00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:44,430 number of, you know, engineer, sort of acquaintances of his on 446 00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:47,520 a bus, and drove them across the state of reserves, about six 447 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,780 hour drive to St. Louis, to just go to a meetup group. And it was 448 00:26:51,780 --> 00:26:55,260 like a weird, elementary school field trip almost where like, 449 00:26:55,260 --> 00:26:57,570 you know, we stopped at a gas station halfway. So you got 10 450 00:26:57,570 --> 00:27:00,600 minutes to go to the restroom and get, you know, food and 451 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,540 stuff like that, you got to be back on the bus. And there was 452 00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:07,350 this, like, the cultivation of the conversations and 453 00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:09,960 relationships that occurred just on that like six hour bus trip 454 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,650 across state and back, actually lasted for months or years 455 00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:16,890 beyond that. I think there's a similar opportunity here where, 456 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,790 you know, we've actually had customer engineer, join us in 457 00:27:20,790 --> 00:27:25,740 our room, in our workspace, no matter where they are, and just 458 00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:28,620 be present with us, we may be solving a problem with them, 459 00:27:28,620 --> 00:27:32,700 sometimes they come back. And you know, it's exciting enough 460 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:35,250 for us to have one customer engineer in there with us, what 461 00:27:35,250 --> 00:27:39,000 I'm really excited about is when two or three or five from 462 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,180 different companies are there, because then they're sharing 463 00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:46,050 ideas with each other as well. That's just that I just want to 464 00:27:46,050 --> 00:27:49,860 be fly on the wall as they share their challenges and problems 465 00:27:49,860 --> 00:27:51,060 with one another as well. 466 00:27:51,180 --> 00:27:54,210 Jason Baum: Yeah, you can have focus groups in there. You could 467 00:27:54,210 --> 00:27:59,820 have like, we were talking like product onboarding meetings. I 468 00:27:59,820 --> 00:28:04,410 was I actually saw for, you know, an issue that a lot of 469 00:28:04,410 --> 00:28:07,410 companies have right now is like, is employee onboarding 470 00:28:07,410 --> 00:28:10,770 because of the virtual workforce? You feel isolated? 471 00:28:11,070 --> 00:28:14,820 environment to go to? Right? Yeah, it's, it's pretty 472 00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:20,040 fascinating. You know, what, what would you say are the 473 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,480 biggest benefits of VR other than what we've been discussing, 474 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,090 Jonathan Schneider: I wonder if others feel the same way. But I 475 00:28:27,090 --> 00:28:30,720 just know that I missed the experience of being able to sit 476 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,720 next to someone not necessarily pair programming, one keyboard 477 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,910 and one monitor, but just being able to glance over at the 478 00:28:38,910 --> 00:28:44,820 monitor next to me, and be engaged really and solving a 479 00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:47,730 problem together. That's actually what I was hoping to 480 00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:51,810 find in this room, which was that if we were all in a line 481 00:28:51,810 --> 00:28:54,150 that I would be able to see the monitor of the person next to 482 00:28:54,150 --> 00:28:57,630 me, and they are thinking privacy or so you actually can, 483 00:28:57,630 --> 00:29:03,420 it's just like a ghost sort of transparent view. But any one 484 00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:06,000 person can present their monitor to the front. And that really 485 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,050 does give you that experience of being able to glance over. And 486 00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:15,120 that's for developers, I think that's really key to be able to 487 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:15,570 do that. 488 00:29:16,020 --> 00:29:19,440 Jason Baum: Yeah. And we're talking to a mixture of deaf 489 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,970 people ops people, DevOps people. So what would you say to 490 00:29:23,970 --> 00:29:28,230 them, you know, as far as like, what VR can do for them with 491 00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:31,890 regards to the code quality and productivity just in general? 492 00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:37,470 Jonathan Schneider: Well, it's, it's interesting. Now, I'd say 493 00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:39,690 like so modern, you know, just as a little bit of background, 494 00:29:39,690 --> 00:29:42,390 we are actually a developer tools company. So we do 495 00:29:42,750 --> 00:29:45,660 automated source code repair. You mentioned this thing about 496 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,710 refactoring from Netflix, and it's exactly as we write recipes 497 00:29:49,710 --> 00:29:54,120 that automatically go and modernize your code or patch 498 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,120 security vulnerabilities or these sorts of things. It seems 499 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:03,120 like a pretty magical technology but It started with, actually, I 500 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,940 was working for engineering tools team, the operations team 501 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:11,640 team, at Netflix and to be effective, the most effective 502 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:17,280 you can be as part of a central team, you need to be like an 503 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,410 ally, or alongside of the developer, which is really your 504 00:30:22,410 --> 00:30:25,950 customer in many ways in that environment. And so how can you 505 00:30:25,950 --> 00:30:29,100 be closer to them? How can you join them where they are? How 506 00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:32,160 can you be, you know, participatory, Netflix was a 507 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,510 very difficult culture and a really eye opening one to be 508 00:30:36,510 --> 00:30:39,000 part of a central operations team, because they have this 509 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,690 freedom responsibility culture, which basically meant, you know, 510 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,420 a central team could impose no constraints and what product 511 00:30:45,420 --> 00:30:48,690 engineers did. Now imagine being a security engineer there and 512 00:30:48,690 --> 00:30:51,900 saying, like I know of a particular vulnerability, the 513 00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:55,710 easiest way to like, or the first thing we all think is I'm 514 00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:58,080 going to break the build pipeline, if you you know, don't 515 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,710 pass a certain date, right? Or I'm going to, you know, not, I'm 516 00:31:01,710 --> 00:31:04,830 going to put gates up. And here they were talking about building 517 00:31:04,830 --> 00:31:07,380 guardrails, instead of gates, you know, how do we build an 518 00:31:07,380 --> 00:31:09,870 experience that keeps the developer going down this path, 519 00:31:09,870 --> 00:31:13,590 and a lot of it's just being present with them communicating 520 00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:18,300 with them. For this particular problem that our company now 521 00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:22,320 works on, which again, is around application modernization or 522 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,700 security vulnerability patching, we would be trying to push 523 00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:30,630 through some initiative. And I would try to generate reports 524 00:31:30,630 --> 00:31:34,380 and dashboards and views for the developers to understand the 525 00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:37,440 current state and, and communicate what our intent 526 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,010 state was. And I didn't find it to be very actionable, like, 527 00:31:41,670 --> 00:31:44,070 people just wouldn't move forward. And I would go in and 528 00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:49,020 abuse them and say, What can we do to help you come along with 529 00:31:49,020 --> 00:31:51,120 this on this initiative? And they say, Well, if you do it for 530 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,410 me, I'm happy to do it. You know, and that's, this is where 531 00:31:55,410 --> 00:31:58,980 automation comes from, but like, doing it for them means, you 532 00:31:58,980 --> 00:32:01,740 know, both providing the tooling and also being present with them 533 00:32:01,950 --> 00:32:03,930 in their environment to help them along. 534 00:32:04,890 --> 00:32:07,440 Jason Baum: Yeah, I think that that being present in there, 535 00:32:07,470 --> 00:32:11,370 right, that's what we talked about with VR. So I'm going to 536 00:32:11,370 --> 00:32:15,150 ask you a question that I saw come up. It made me think about 537 00:32:15,210 --> 00:32:19,080 VR, because I just experienced it. It's Do you think this is a 538 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,200 fad? Is VR a fad? Or is VR the future? 539 00:32:23,670 --> 00:32:26,880 Jonathan Schneider: I think, if you rewind to middle of last 540 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,290 year, I would have said VR was the fad, but augmented reality 541 00:32:31,290 --> 00:32:34,740 was the future. I really thought that's how it would go that I 542 00:32:34,740 --> 00:32:39,840 could totally imagine, like, discarding my physical monitor, 543 00:32:40,140 --> 00:32:44,670 and instead, you know, developing a more dynamic sort 544 00:32:44,670 --> 00:32:50,700 of fungible like, AR experience. I think, now, I believe it's the 545 00:32:50,700 --> 00:32:53,820 opposite. And I'm surprised to hear myself say that, but I 546 00:32:53,820 --> 00:33:02,190 think AR is, is less useful, when when we're confronted with 547 00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:05,550 the possibility that we have with VR, I do think VR is going 548 00:33:05,550 --> 00:33:08,700 to ultimately win. And I think one of the really interesting 549 00:33:08,730 --> 00:33:12,540 concepts the, how I see this going, really, is that it's 550 00:33:12,540 --> 00:33:15,750 gonna start in the business. I mean, here I am, as a small 551 00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:19,890 business, you know, leader shipping out devices, you know, 552 00:33:19,890 --> 00:33:24,990 $300 a pop to our team. It's just like the PC, it started in 553 00:33:24,990 --> 00:33:27,480 the business. And then it developed consumer applications 554 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,750 later, I see the same thing happening here. With VR. 555 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,930 Jason Baum: Yeah. And to be and and that's just again, like 556 00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:36,960 you're you're not this huge company, but you're a small 557 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,910 company, and you're willing to take the investment because you 558 00:33:38,910 --> 00:33:41,940 see the benefits, which is, which is interesting, because, 559 00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:46,410 yes, it didn't come out and cost millions of dollars to 560 00:33:46,410 --> 00:33:50,340 implement. Yeah. And then there's no cost once you're in 561 00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:54,540 the app at the moment right now, right? In the in the metaverse, 562 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,160 whatever doesn't, it's all free. 563 00:33:56,460 --> 00:33:57,900 Jonathan Schneider: Yeah. I think like a lot of 564 00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,990 organizations, we've never tried to overly optimize for cost of 565 00:34:00,990 --> 00:34:04,920 equipment because it's just such a, it's part of, you know, your 566 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,550 daily work. So a marginal improvement in daily equipment, 567 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,900 or the equipment used daily makes a big difference in bottom 568 00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:15,270 line productivity. So that's, I think we see the same thing 569 00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:15,570 here. 570 00:34:16,260 --> 00:34:19,170 Jason Baum: So now we're we're on our way to wrapping up and 571 00:34:19,530 --> 00:34:23,130 you know, Jonathan, this has been this has been an experience 572 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:28,290 for me, I hope it translated to our to our listeners. I believe 573 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:35,340 you had recorded a piece of ourselves in the VR world that 574 00:34:35,340 --> 00:34:38,040 we'd love to share with everybody so you can get a sense 575 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,710 of what it looks like. Obviously it's not it's not going to 576 00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:44,160 necessarily do it complete justice. Obviously being there 577 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,280 is you know, sells it but I think it would give you a good 578 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,200 idea of what we were seeing Correct. 579 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,340 Jonathan Schneider: That's right. So you can see the team 580 00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:56,830 members to the right I look over at you. And our producer here 581 00:34:56,830 --> 00:35:00,100 Jaida you can see her on the on the TV screen joining us 582 00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:00,760 remotely. 583 00:35:00,910 --> 00:35:02,860 Jason Baum: Yeah, we'll introduce Jaida, no one, no one. 584 00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:07,450 No one has met Jada. Unless you knew her. Before all this. So 585 00:35:07,450 --> 00:35:09,490 Jaida is our producer. So she'll, she'll make an 586 00:35:09,490 --> 00:35:12,430 appearance for the first time right now humans of DevOps 587 00:35:12,490 --> 00:35:14,020 podcasts, rightfully so by the 588 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,340 Jonathan Schneider: way. Yeah. So yeah, hopefully that's 589 00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:18,840 helpful to visualize it a bit. 590 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,270 Jason Baum: Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jonathan. 591 00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:24,600 This is this has been Truly an experience. Just Just amazing. 592 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,840 It's opened my eyes to a whole new world. A little scared of 593 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,230 where we're going where this is, like I said, I think this is how 594 00:35:31,230 --> 00:35:36,480 the matrix began. Yes, it is. So we'd like to get personal before 595 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,970 we go. And I was like to ask one question. And we I believe we're 596 00:35:41,970 --> 00:35:44,640 going to retire the old question that we used to ask on this 597 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,640 podcast, so I'm going to ask you something different. So if you 598 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,940 could be remembered for one thing? What would that be? 599 00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:54,270 Jonathan Schneider: Wow, that's a that's a deep right. 600 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,410 Jason Baum: We always ask a very deep, deep get to know your 601 00:35:58,410 --> 00:35:59,160 question. 602 00:35:59,190 --> 00:36:02,400 Jonathan Schneider: I mean, I think it's, I remember going to 603 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,800 a So long answer maybe but a seminar a while back on just on 604 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,530 speaking and technical speaking. And the presenter. His name is 605 00:36:13,530 --> 00:36:16,680 Anne Ricketts. By the way, if you're in the Bay Area, she's 606 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,460 absolutely fantastic. You should hire her. But you know, and 607 00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:22,260 Ricketts Lighthouse communication, I think is what 608 00:36:22,290 --> 00:36:28,200 her company is called. They, she said, like, don't try to be like 609 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,740 Steve Jobs. Don't try to be like, you know, some other 610 00:36:31,740 --> 00:36:33,810 famous speaker, what is like your one personality 611 00:36:33,810 --> 00:36:36,240 characteristic that you want to come through? Here. I'm like 612 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:38,820 this, like from the Midwest, like we're all sort of 613 00:36:38,940 --> 00:36:42,930 upbringing, I think one characteristic of that area is 614 00:36:42,930 --> 00:36:46,710 just, you know, just like friendliness, you know, willing 615 00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:50,520 to, to listen, you know, it'd be be present with your neighbors. 616 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,300 And so I think that's what I always want to bring through. 617 00:36:54,330 --> 00:36:57,510 Hopefully, we made you feel welcome in our local area there 618 00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:58,020 today. 619 00:36:58,590 --> 00:37:01,740 Jason Baum: Yeah, thank you so much. I felt I felt like I'd met 620 00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:04,710 your entire team, like I was at your office. I got to know 621 00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:08,040 everybody it was it's, it's truly a unique experience. And 622 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,540 it's, and you do have a sense of feel like that we've met before, 623 00:37:12,540 --> 00:37:17,160 which is odd to say when I've met a cartoon cartoon version of 624 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,970 you. Well, Jonathan Schneider, co founder and CEO of modern 625 00:37:21,870 --> 00:37:24,270 it's this has been an absolute pleasure. I really appreciate 626 00:37:24,270 --> 00:37:29,310 your coming on and introducing me to the virtual world. Yeah. 627 00:37:30,540 --> 00:37:33,510 Yeah, thank you for listening to this episode of the humans of 628 00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:36,540 DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode the same way I 629 00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:39,300 always do encouraging you to become a member of DevOps 630 00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:42,690 Institute to get access to even more great resources just like 631 00:37:42,690 --> 00:37:46,440 this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of 632 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,870 all, stay human, live long and prosper. 633 00:37:50,490 --> 00:37:52,590 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 634 00:37:52,590 --> 00:37:56,130 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 635 00:37:56,130 --> 00:37:59,460 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 636 00:37:59,460 --> 00:38:02,790 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 637 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:03,990 You belong