Andy Polaine: Hi, welcome to Power of Ten. A podcast about
design operating at many levels zooming out from thoughtful
detail through to organisational transformation, on on to changes
in society and the world. My name is Andy Polaine. I'm a
design and innovation consultant, design leadership
coach, educator and writer. My guest today is making her second
appearance on Power of Ten. It's Tutti Taygerly, welcome Tutti.
Tutti Taygerly: Thank you, Andy, excited to be on.
Andy Polaine: Tutti is an executive leadership coach and
professional speaker for those of you who haven't heard her in
the last time. She supports CEOs and tech leaders to embrace
their unique leadership style to achieve professional impact. She
works closely with women, people of colour and immigrants and has
a particular love for difficult in air quotes people.
Previously, she was the design leader at design firms, startups
and large companies, including Disney and Facebook. She's
written for Business Insider and Fast Company. And she's just
written a new book called Make Space to Lead that shows high
achievers how to reframe our relationship to work today.
Welcome. Thank you. So the last time we spoke was a while ago,
we were just saying kind of near the beginning of this pandemic,
actually, I think it was the beginning of last year, or
spring last year. So you've been on you've been on quite a
personal journey, it seems in that time, what do you been up
to since the last time I spoke?
Tutti Taygerly: Ah, so much. I think I think the last time we
spoke, I was in the middle of Coach Training through the
coactive Institute. And since then, I think that I've stepped
in a feeling really comfortable as an entrepreneur with hate to
use this word, but with a portfolio of work from
supporting CEOs of startups, leaders, and tech companies,
designers on non designers in one on one coaching, running
group programmes running my first in person retreat, which
was beautiful, it was about a month ago to actually work with
a group of women in person. And then for a lot of this last
year, I've been writing, hence this book coming out a lot of
the thinking and framing and I would say sharpening of the
different messages that I've been going through myself and
working with people on coming out in the book.
Andy Polaine: So I've got a question of if you've been busy.
Tutti Taygerly: Andy Andy. And so I think they say that we we
teach what we most need to learn. I've been working with
two separate book coaches over this year in writing the book.
And this is what happens in our sessions. They always start with
how busy Have you been how packed has been your schedule,
and is actually the second book coach who basically gave me a
very inspired tip, which is to only right when I'm in flow. And
I find that that happens the most, if I start out the morning
surfing, so if I start out the morning, out in the ocean
surfing, relax. When I come back, all I want to do is right.
So I am busy, but it's a state of being I would say not busy.
I'm actively in flow, creating producing a lot of things. And
yes, I am busy a lot too.
Andy Polaine: Yeah. Okay. As you know, it was a you know,
facetious question because obviously, this is one of the
things you're talking about is making space and actually
getting away from the busyness and, you know, I had a little
kind of European chuckle at there was a line in the book
where he said, You know, it's only when we take a longer
vacation of a week or preferably two or three, which for
Europeans is a short, you know, three weeks is a short vacation...
Tutti Taygerly: right? Absolutely. It's very American
to be out for days. That's my vacation.
Andy Polaine: Yeah, yeah. So you know, it's incredible how that
kind of it's getting shorter and shorter is actually happening in
Australia, koala Australia used to be quite good on that. And
it's, it's now I think, one of the nations who have kind of the
least kind of vacation America still tops the list. You know,
you talked about surfing a lot actually, in your book is a I
got the feeling that there was a lot of thinking around the book.
Whilst you were surfing I'm not thinking I don't know if that's
true. A lot of what I would call the sort of the stewing you
know, the sort of I think writing a book or writing
anything actually is a large part of kind of, for me, I call
it stewing talk to an Italian the other day who said yeah,
it's a it's a minestrone, right, you know, it's one of those
things you have to kind of let it gradually cook to really get
out the flavours but I think it's one of the things that you
know, to make sense of it. So how much was inspired by surfing
because you even have an acronym in there to
Tutti Taygerly: idea I do have an acronym to remember the state
of being by surf su RF. But to your question, I remember when
when I worked actively as a design leader making products I
talked a lot about gestation time, which is the same thing,
the stewing time this minestrone time. And I don't even think
it's for for writing, I think it's for for everything we do
whatever thing we're trying to make create problem solve. And
absolutely I, I do that when I surf, not necessarily in the
active part of paddling, going for a wave, riding the wave, but
in a lot of the sitting. I think many people think that surfing
is a very active sport, because when you see it, you see people
up and riding the wave and going down the line. But the reality
is you spend a lot of time sitting, spend a lot of time
sitting, floating, bobbing, watching, watching the horizon
to see when the next set is going to come. And that is very
conducive for introspection. And to your point around the around
what I call gestation, it's, you let an idea sit with you
overnight for a couple days when when you're in the shower, when
you're out walking, or for me after when I'm out surfing,
that's when something pops and then you know what to do next,
you know, you get an insight, you get something to to unstick
you and show you the path forward.
Andy Polaine: Yeah, I think there was a, I think Adam Grant,
there was a sort of thing that he had written a little while he
probably posted it too. But so it said it was one of the things
that I tweeted his kind of went around and about this idea of,
you know, downtime, or is not wasted time. And this idea. And
I really find that, you know, if you're really really busy, you
just don't have kind of time to think and my belief is not be
interested in seeing. So you coach some of these people, I
have a kind of belief that I think CEOs should be the least
busy people in the organisation because their decisions carry
often the greatest weight, and therefore they should have some
time to kind of think about those things. And the opposite
is usually the case, right? I mean, I've had plenty of
situations where someone said, Well, okay, yeah, we've got 15
minutes for the CEO to present this thing for you know, and
it's some really kind of important thing or millions of
dollars. And I think, you know, who thinks they can make a
decision like that in 15 minutes without some reflection and some
time? What's your view on this? Because you, you coach CEOs,
right? Especially startups?
Tutti Taygerly: I do I do. So two perspectives on this. And
this is this is related to zooming up and down, as well. My
guess is that for some of the CEOs that I coach, they have
different perspectives on a problem. So if it is a problem
that most of the time, their teams, the people who work for
them can handle them at some points in time, 15 minutes is,
is enough, because they built up the context of it over time they
understand it, especially most of the CEOs, I coach, our
founders, co founders, which means they are deeply
passionately embedded in the space of their company. So in a
way they understand it, and have been with the ideas and concepts
longer than anyone else. So with that, I'd say for some of these
more zoomed down decisions. 15 minutes, I think is enough. And
all of these CEOs still struggle with what is the day to day
firefighting crisis? And then how do you zoom out and make
space make time to look at what is long term out, and long term
can be long term can be six months, it can be 235 years. And
for that, I believe they need the time and the space. My cat
is just on my lap. So you might hear her her
Andy Polaine: cat is making making space they were fighting
earlier, too. So if anyone hears that in the background, I find
it quite relaxing. And it's one of those things you could just
going to put on. Just let me sign up for a second let people
record
Tutti Taygerly: it. What's the vibration of her on my lap like
that is another thing that reminds me to slow down and make
space because I've got a pet my cat?
Andy Polaine: Yeah, cats aren't particularly hectic animals,
although they're quite soothing. So you know, there's lots we
could talk about around your book, I can you've caught it
make space to lead. And you're very honest and open in your own
story. It's kind of leading there. And it sort of runs all
the way through of your kind of own experience. And you know,
you're very honest about this, this relationship between what
you call your achievement monster, and finding somehow the
other side of it, but working in a culture in an environment
where everyone's meant to have an achievement monster will be
one. And, you know, hopefully, if we're doing it right, mine's
better than yours. And all that stuff is sort of hyper
competitive. And I've got a bunch of questions around here.
But what point did you feel like you know, here's something I
think I can kind of share and I can write about what was there a
kind of triggered to this or was it something that improved over
time?
Tutti Taygerly: So I think the biggest trigger for writing
externally about this was to really capture and better
understand my own process. A lot of researchers talk a lot about
research is actually me research trying to understand more of our
own personal growth and journey. And while I've always journaled,
I had not publicly written and blogged. And that's something
that I started doing. When I left the corporate world, I
think I wrote my first public blog, the month where I stopped
working at Facebook, my last corporate job. Yeah. And for me,
that was never intended to be a book or anything like that. It
was more, hey, this is a journey that I'm going through. I found
these messages have resonated with a lot of my peers,
especially many design leaders during a performance review
season or trying to have more of a say in the roadmap, we'll put
our hands up and be like, why are we doing this? Why are we
putting so much of our hearts and souls into it? I talked to a
lot of people feeling very overwhelmed and overworked. And
this is even in the years pre COVID. So there was something
about it, where I wanted to write to capture my journey and
to share it with other people. And as we both know, Brene Brown
talks about this catharsis vulnerability, of sharing of
making a connection. And I mean, that was the soup all together
that had me start writing a blog weekly. For me, it didn't start
as confessional it started as sharing my learnings along the
process. And only after doing that, for about two and a half,
some years was there. Maybe after a year, maybe there was
more of a point of view, there was a feedback loop, There were
articles that resonated more with people and articles that
were not read. So it was all an iterative feedback loop for
experimentation. So while it started for me purely and
selfishly, it became this way for me to connect with many,
many people. And many people come in and find me through my
writing right now.
Andy Polaine: Yeah, I call that sort of poking the hornet's
nest, and you've put some articles out there. And
sometimes nothing happens in another time. Often, it's the
things that, you know, a little bit throw away, almost, you
know, what I call brain farts? You know, they're just a little
thing. I think, well, that was kind of interesting might have
been something, a turn of phrase that came up in coaching as a
response to someone and I kind of post it. And those ones
suddenly kind of call us a lot of sort of hubbub in both
directions in sometimes kind of positive and negative.
Tutti Taygerly: Absolutely.
Andy Polaine: So you know, maybe you could kind of talk through,
maybe there's a little bit of the kind of outline of the book.
And I guess the other thing is, obviously, what do you hope that
people are going to do with with a book because there's obviously
one thing is to is to write something, or to present
something. But the other part of it is, you know, what I want
people to do with that.
Tutti Taygerly: You mentioned a little bit ago that I talk a lot
about my achievement monster, and almost every person that I
coach, and almost every person I talked to when I was working at
Facebook, when we got beyond the large meeting sessions, and we
sat down for coffee or had a one on one, everyone confessed to
feeling imposter syndrome. The sense that I don't belong here.
Everyone else is smarter, better, better than I am. And I
I'm a fraud because you know, who am I with my background, my
training more or lack thereof to sit here be in this room amongst
the other giants. And the reason why I bring those two things
together is that we all have these voices. We all have these
be self critics. I call it my achievement monster. One of my
mentors and teachers Shirzad shameen calls it a saboteur, or
a judge, that really tells us these voices that say that
we're, we're not doing it right. We're not good enough, we're
messing up we don't belong. And why talking about the
achievement monster is one of the earlier chapters in the
book, is what I believe helps is realising that these voices are
here. A metaphor I use a lot with clients in tech is we've
all heard of needing to have mentors and sponsors. Instead,
think about in our internal landscape, having a personal
board of directors, and on this personal board of directors are
all these voices. There may be this achievement monster voice
sitting at the table. And at the same time, maybe there are other
voices here of leaders that you've respected of mentors that
you have and every time you're approaching or facing a choice
or a decision. Listen to all those voices hear all of them,
but know that the voice of the achievement monster is most
likely Lighting. And getting familiar with all these voices,
naming them, helps to bring it out into the light a little bit
more and help overcome some of that imposter syndrome.
Andy Polaine: Mm hmm. There's a book by Steven Pressfield, who
wrote a book called The War of Art. And it was, you know, to
flip around of the art of war. And he does brilliant thing in
this. And he's talking about writing his writer, and he's
talking about all the things that get in the way of writing
and some of the stuff we just talked about. But the brilliant
thing he does is he talks about the resistance, as if it's an
external thing that's just out to get you. And it's really
sneaky. And it can get you in lots of different ways. And the
reason why it's called The War of Art, it's kind of like how to
spot the signs that the resistance is coming to get you
and how to protect yourself from it. And of course, you know,
it's an internal thing. But the fact that he externalises, this
as this external force, makes it a completely different in terms
of the way you can relate to that instead of, oh, I'm lazy,
I'm no good, I'm kind of rubbish. It's actually, this
thing's out to get me and I kind of stopped. It was it's, it's
really clever. And I think I think that aspect of naming
things is incredibly important. And I know what your experience
is, is one of the things I've found with Kochi sometimes is
not only naming their things when you're talking about some
naming your fears and kind of looking at your weaknesses and
giving different perspectives on them, but also toxic behaviour
from other people. And I don't mean sort of necessarily going
out and combating that and sort of fighting it head on. But
sometimes, you can quietly name that to the person who's doing
it. You know, and it could be as simple as you know, it feels
like you're trying to bully me here. You know, what brings you
to do that, that kind of completely diffuses and disarms,
sometimes not always, but a lot of the time, I think, actually
kind of naming the thing that's going on the dynamic that's
going in between sort of takes its power away. And I'm
interested, if you've found that at all, with your self or with
your coaches. No, absolutely,
Tutti Taygerly: I'll tell a different side of the story.
Because, as you said, you know, I still am busy, I still
struggle with making space to lead. And the story that you
talked about naming it saying, oh, you know, that feels a
little bit like I'm being bullied. That really resonates
with me, because for, for many, many years, as a leader, I was a
very intense person, a so called air quotes, difficult person, if
you will, because I'm so passionate about about the
ideas. And it took multiple brave souls naming it to me,
saying that, the way that that you talk about these ideas is
like, it's like a hammer or a bulldozer doesn't leave space
for anyone else to express their opinions. And something like
that. horrified me so deeply, because I believe in diversity
and inclusion and making sure everyone's voice is heard. So
simply that that act of naming is, sometimes we can't see these
things about ourselves. So I think it's up to leaders to help
hold mirrors up to other people, and name these traits. And in a
way that can be really, really scary. Because if you're saying
this to someone who's very intense and explosive, and
saying that hole, I'm feeling bullied, that could blow up in
your face. And that can be really, really scary.
Andy Polaine: Yeah, that's why I said it sort of in in, you know,
about naming it in a fairly sort of quiet and not combative way.
Because I think there's a difference to say, you're
bullying me, you know, and I'm feeling this to saying, it seems
like, you know, this is what's going on here, or, you know, I
know, it's very subtle, and it's a subtle language shift. I've
got one little story, I was in a shared sort of studio space that
I mistakenly kind of decided to kind of start form a collective
with some people who I didn't know that, well, a couple of
people I knew very well. And one of the guys was a little bit
immature, he was kind of, but very sort of alpha males. And
I'm not really that kind of guy. And this is on Australia, where
there's this quite a dynamic of that going on. I found him kind
of terribly difficult. And then at one point, we were having
kind of a Rao about, you know, as we were trying to separate
the studio and I've tried to leave and stuff. And he was just
kind of being he was being bullying. And I said, you know,
why are you trying to bully me at the moment in this what what
do you hope to achieve? And he kind of burst forth he said,
Because I'm a man. And I, you know, I just burst out laughing.
And it was this this kind of amazing moment where in that
moment, I named it his whole kind of going in Union terms of
also shadow burst forth and he kind of said the thing that he
sort of secretly or unconsciously was, was feeling
and it kind of just, it took a complete took away his power, of
course, and then I was like, Well, okay, you know, I've won
this argument now. But it just also for me just completely took
away the dynamic and whenever I've had that situation, that
that's actually a thing. Bullying is a thing I respond. I
wasn't even really bullied at school, but I respond badly, I
think to the unfairness of the sense of powerlessness. I think
you know, most people do. Yeah. And I found actually one of the
things of kind of naming it in quite a kind of even way really
helps and, and I feel like a lot of what you're talking about in
the book is really going inside and naming those things for
yourself. And you are simultaneously so reducing the
power of some things and increasing the power of the more
positive things. And it's sometimes a bit
counterintuitive. Like the thing about well, as you talk about
the thing, when you talk about, there's a really, really nice
activity about sort of taking different perspectives on your
weaknesses.
Tutti Taygerly: Can I circle back to your story for a minute,
and this is related to shifting perspectives. There's the naming
of your story with the gentleman you shared the space with in the
studio with. But the other part is that when you actually name
something and get something out of the open, it can be really
funny, as you said, you burst out laughing it out in laughter.
I mean, some of our most tragic, highly emotional moments are
extremely funny. They shouldn't be, but they are and having
something be comic ridiculous, completely outlandish, also
breaks the emotion and breaks the tension and allows different
perspectives to, to come in. And one of the things that that I've
done a lot is I've been trained in improv, yeah, you talk about
that a bit in the book, doing something outlandish saying yes,
and in a brainstorm. Yes. And we will bring my pet mouse into
this particular design exercise and think about what my pet
mouse might do with this concept or whatever else ridiculous
thing. And pulling that back to the question you're asking.
laughter, humour outlandish Enos. That's one way of
providing another different perspective. Yeah. And the
problem is, we get so stuck into the fact that these are my
strengths. And these are my weaknesses. One of one of the
women that I was coaching was a very quiet leader. And she was
convinced that it held her back. It was, she was given feedback
that this was a very outspoken company, she needed to express
her opinion more forcefully, she needed to be a certain way,
because quietness was not part of the culture of this company.
And so for a very, very long time, she knew she absolutely
knew and was stuck that this was this was a weakness. And this
exercise, you talk about this perspective shifting. I worked
on it with her because some of her strengths were very, she was
very empathetic, she was beloved by her team, she was very caring
and supportive. And she was a slower, more contemplative
thinker. Think there's so many different types of thinking
there are people who think very fast on their feet. And these
are the people who who win more in meetings, because they have
something to say immediately. They may be called the bullies
in this in this scenario do because they may dominate the
conversation. And in these scenarios, it can feel that
slowing down not having an immediate response is not a good
thing. This quiet leadership is a weakness. So one exercise is
flipping the perspectives. Coming up with as many different
possibilities about well, what if, what if being quiet was a
strength? What if it was a strength because you can slow
down the speed of the conversation and make sure that
every person in the room is able to give their perspective? So we
don't mistakenly rush into into a strategy that's going to blow
up in our faces? Yeah, what if being quiet is a strength
because you're going to be able to write your perspective, write
your opinion, and send that in a follow up email. Back to the CEO
example, what if, if we take a couple of days to do this or a
weekend before we make this decision, something else will
come up. And a quiet leader may see that opportunity and open up
the space for the team to do that. There's three off the cuff
examples of how a perceived weakness could be a strength.
Andy Polaine: I really liked that story, actually, because I
think it's quite common. I teach. I teach quite a lot. I
coach as well. It's weird. I get it kind of waves of female
coaches and male coaches. And I had one point quite a lot of
female coaches. And this came up quite a lot for the reasons
you're saying, and particularly in Australia, where instead of
pre blokey culture, it's still a sort of fairly kind of loud
blokey culture and there tends to be that kind of dominance of
the loud ones, at least in a meeting. And this particular
Kochi, I'm thinking of she was very smart, very able, really
knew her staff had that thing of when I'm in this room now I get
in and people ask me questions and I can't think of the kind of
facts and figures or the stats or whatever it is off the top of
my head and I feel kind of frozen and had imposter
syndrome, one of the things was to sort of get her to think
about who else in the room knows more about design? She was a UX
person, you know, then you here in the room? Well, no one.
That's why That's why you're there. Right? And but she was
constantly had this thing of, I shouldn't be here. And that kind
of helped, first of all, and I had another coachee, though, who
had that very thing of, you know, I hate it when people put
me on the spot to answer a question, because I really like
to think about it. And I'm just not that kind of person. And so
we worked on him going, just saying, Can you give me just 10
minutes, I'll come back to you about that. And sometimes it
was, it was longer. And I'll give you an answer by the end of
the day, or something like that. And the brilliant thing was,
they did a presentation to this to a client. And the the most
senior stakeholder was this woman who's who said, at the end
of the presentation, thanks very much, I really want to have a
little think about everything you presented to me today, and
I'll get back to you tomorrow, it was just fantastic for him to
see someone very, very senior do that. And I said, how it made
you feel, anyone who actually really made me feel like she had
heard everything we had been talking about and was taking it
seriously, you know, rather than just a kind of glib response,
and then walked out the door. So it's really, really nice to kind
of have that moment where he saw someone very senior do exactly
what he was kind of afraid of doing. And indeed, you know, the
more he did it, and it's a naming thing again, which is to
say, you know, I like to take some time to think about that
thing, rather than pretending that he was fine with coming up
with an answer. And it really, really helped. I want to ask a
question, because you've come from a culture, unfortunately, a
Facebook's being kind of is being pulled through the news a
lot at the moment. But you know, in general, the tech industry
that say, in California, by Silicon Valley, that is heavily
kind of, there's a very, very strong culture of productivity
of doing more of it, all the stuff that you kind of push
against, or at least a kind of, you know, it's a sort of
rallying cry against quite a lot of that in your book about, you
know, we need to make some space. I have a few coaches from
that kind of media to who, you know, sometimes say, I feel like
everyone else is better than me is going to go fast. But at the
same time, then it kind of creeps into the conversation of
actually, I know, loads of other people who are really close to
burnout, but nobody wants to admit it. What do you think is
going on? Where does that come from? You know, in that culture,
why is that even there in the first place?
Tutti Taygerly: So I am really optimistic about Silicon Valley
and tech culture. And I think that there is it's complex. And
there's a paradox there. I think that there is a brilliant, shiny
group of dreamers and thinkers who can imagine what a better
world would be like with technology. And I think that in
itself is a really beautiful thing. That's the North Star,
that's the vision. That is even if you want to call it the
reality distortion field of, of Steve Jobs. And the challenges
come in, in the execution of it. Because there is a, I think, a
false perception that it's urgent, we never have enough
time. If we don't get to product market fit before a certain
time, we're gonna run out of money. If we don't release this
new product line out, our competitors are going to get
there first. If we're not first to market, we're going to lose.
And there is very much this the scarcity model of we must run
faster, we must burn out we must go as quickly as possible
because otherwise someone is going to lose. And I believe
that's part of our part of our culture. It's part of the VC
culture. It's part of the what happens when you go public and
what what we do with with exits. And what's challenging is that
there's this beautiful thing of being able to imagine and
visualise a better future, which is such a sense of of abundance.
And then this this like short term fear culture, reward
system, which is this performance review system, which
happens every three, six months or every year. And it's those
two pushing at each other, which causes this this burnout. The
sense of, even though everyone knows, yes, you need to work
smarter, not harder. You're not on a clock. You are not required
to work 60 hours a week. There is that fear that unless you do
that you won't be as good as everyone else.
Andy Polaine: Yeah, the peer pressure is strong isn't in that
idea that there's you know, there's only so much pie to go
around. Do you think those are structurally resolvable for me
those feel like you know, particularly the structural
thing you just talked about in the second half of that that
feels like those are just destined never to be never to be
resolved.
Tutti Taygerly: So I I think this is a challenging thing to
resolve. And this is one of the reasons why I love working with
CEOs of smaller companies and startups. Because these are the
conversations that we have together. How do we set up a
company culture, so that we are performance, we do hit some of
these, some of these milestones, we make sure we keep marching
towards product market fit, while building a company culture
of respect, equality, where we have people do their best work,
because they do want people to be their most creative and
inspired and working long hours does not help with that.
Andy Polaine: Do you think to use the parlance of the tech
industry, that good intentions, scale?
Tutti Taygerly: Scaling is hard. Scaling is hard. I mean, having
having worked at Facebook, there are many, many good intentions.
And the scaling of it is hard, which is why I think how you
solve it first, as you solve it within a smaller, more
contained, I don't know 50 To 300 person startup,
Andy Polaine: your problems scale to write. And so it feels
like the in that crazy sort of first bit of a startup where
there really isn't any time and we're kind of running on a
shoestring. And everyone is working stupid hours, which I
don't necessarily think have to do. But, you know, for all the
reasons you've just said, you know, if you don't take the time
or make space to look at that and deal with that, then when
you go into, as you scale, you you having less chance to do it,
or you get I was talking to my previous podcast guest about
this idea of sort of ethical debt. You know, you kind of end
up with this problem. I think you end up with sort of cultural
organisational debt, there is way more difficult to to pay off
the technical debt. No, absolutely.
Tutti Taygerly: I think there is the right place for each
individual person to be. And so a concept that I talk about a
lot is force versus flow. Yeah. And I believe that there are
periods in your life where if you are energised, if you are
feeling feeling alive, feeling excited and passionate about
your work, there are periods of time where you can work very,
very long hours. I don't believe it's sustainable for months or
years. And so it's really about the rhythms similar to the
rhythms of of the ocean and the waves, there's going to be times
in your life where you can work with that intensity because it
continues to feel and energise you. And then there's going to
be periods of time where it suddenly feels Oh, this is this
is too much. That same number of hours, weekly hours that you
standardise you now feel like they're burnout. Yeah, the hours
may be the same, but what shifts is how your energy and
excitement about it based on a whole bunch of things, how well
the project's going the relationships between people at
work, how long you've been doing this. And then that's the time
at a personal level to to shift. And what the message that I
wanted to share with this book is that when you get to that
stage, it's okay, to make the space it's okay to rest, it's
okay to slow down. And that will make you I believe, even more
successful, even more energised, do even greater, bigger, more
impactful work, if you do take those periods of rest to slow
down. So it's a difference between sometimes you do need to
go go go and you're energised by it. And other times you're not
because you're not in flow. So that's a little bit of, I think,
the paradox and the self awareness to know when you're in
one versus the other.
Andy Polaine: I think it's not only possible, it's necessary,
right? That, you know, if you don't, you're actually doing a
disservice to the company you're trying to build or the
organisation you're working in. Because more because you burn
out and you end up kind of going down in flames. Absolutely.
We're gonna have to wrap up because we're coming up to time,
but there's a there's a great quote from Mike Vance that I
sort of wanted to end on in your work, which is slowing down is
sometimes the best way to speed up through wires. Yeah. So
listen, when's the book out? It might be out by the time this
podcast comes out. Actually,
Tutti Taygerly: the book comes out on November 2, and will be
widely available. There is my website, make space to lead,
which will give you lots of information in details.
Andy Polaine: And I'll put all the other links of where to find
you in the show notes, too. Thanks so much. It's been lovely
to chat. I feel like we could go on for another hour. I will do
it again sometime. Good luck with the book launch. I'm sure
it'll have great impact, and I'm sure you'll get a lot of
interest in it. Thanks so much for being my guest.
Tutti Taygerly: Wonderful. Thank you Andy.
Andy Polaine: As I'm sure you're aware, you've been listening to
Power of Ten. My name is Andy Polaine. You can find me at a
Polaine on Twitter or follow dot com where you can find more
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