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Narrator: You're listening to
the humans of DevOps podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas and learning,
or the SK il framework.

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Brendan O'Reilly: If we have a
connection to the customer to

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the fact that we're competing
for business, you know, if we

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have that connection, then
energy flows in I mean energy is

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this an intangible thing, but
it's very present. You can see a

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team that's energized versus the
team. That's not.

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Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's
Jason Baum, Director of Member

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experience at DevOps Institute,
and this is the humans of DevOps

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podcast. Welcome back. Hope you
had a great week. Last week, I

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hope you listen to our episode,
we discussed VR tech, so you'll

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definitely want to go back and
listen, if you haven't. We

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talked all about the metaverse
whether it will play a role in

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the future of remote work.
Here's a surprised hint I do.

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We're going to continue the
conversation centered around

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remote work on today's episode.
But today we'll be focusing on

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silos. Look, whether we're on
site, hybrid remote, teams, and

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departments tend to work in
silos. It's not a new concept.

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In fact, it's quite natural when
silos pop up. Often you'll see a

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team working and communicating
very well with each other, but

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then not as effective with other
teams. There's where the silos

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come in. We've been aware of
this issue for a long time. And

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in some ways, we've created
methods to avoid working in

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silos when in the same office
space. But it's definitely

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harder when we're working
remote, whether we're cities,

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states or even countries apart.
But we have the pleasure today

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of speaking to my guest, Brendan
O'Reilly, a DevOps specialist

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who co founded his company,
Dacia in 2004. And most recently

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led its transformation as a
DevOps training and solutions

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business and experienced
technology leader running tech

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startups since 1990. Brendan is
an Agile coach, and lean yellow

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belt. He is a DevOps Institute
ambassador, and published a book

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in 2020, titled one fat that's
what to aim is one feature at a

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time to help organizations
overcome their older ways of

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working and engage customers in
a process of ongoing value

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realization. Brendon. Welcome to
the humans of DevOps podcast.

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Brendan O'Reilly: Hey, Jason,
thanks a million for having me

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along. Looking forward to this.
Hopefully, it'll be a good fun

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day. And actually, I must listen
to your last episode. Because

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just before we came on, we were
having a chat about VR. And I've

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actually delivered some lectures
in VR recently, and how to a

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whale of a time, the really
interesting part happened after

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the lecture where which happened
in a lecture theatre, and we

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went in to have a coffee, and
there was a virtual coffee

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machine. And then all the
students came up and interacted

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with me when it was less formal,
so to speak. So yeah, I believe

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I also believe that VR is the
future.

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Jason Baum: Yeah, you know, you
know, what's so different about

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VR is like, and you're
describing the the networking

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component, that that does not
lend itself as authentically, I

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guess, is the right word in
zoom, because you don't have the

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ability to like, tap someone on
the shoulder and interrupt their

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conversation, something as
simple as that, that we have

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taken for granted, but is
embedded in us, I guess, in long

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term networking, for example, or
just randomly bumping into

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someone, right?

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Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah, I mean,
it's, it's really hard to know

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how it's gonna pan out. But the
ability as you say, to go and

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shake somebody's hand, for
example, in a virtual world,

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create a different form of
connection. And sit down and

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have a coffee even, even though
you're and you are actually

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sipping the coffee creates this
atmosphere require it's just a

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bit more relaxed, I guess.

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Jason Baum: There's haptic
feedback. There's the the sound

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travels around, you know,
wherever someone's speaking, you

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hear it over to the left, or to
the right, the spatial audio.

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It's very cool. So so check out
last week's episode for those

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listening and Brandon, please
check it out. And and I'm sure

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we're going to do more on the
topic. And I do think it plays a

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little bit into our conversation
today on silos. I was a

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communication major and I was
beaten into me that there is not

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such communication. There are so
many different variations of

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communication, types of
communication. And then there is

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effective communication, there's
there's no such thing as more

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communication. There is
effective effective

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communication or ineffective
noise. Right. And I think that

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too, plays a little bit into the
conversation today on site about

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silos and I talked about it in
my lead up. But why don't we

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just start right at the
beginning? Why are silos bad?

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And how do they even come up?

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Brendan O'Reilly: Hmm? Yeah, so
why are they bad? And why do

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people okay? So generally
speaking, they're bad because

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there's a loss of productivity
associated with having roles,

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like classically, the project
manager who kind of traverses

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groups of certain SME subject
matter experts. So one

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individual is tasked with, you
know, pulling it together and

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sharing things and documents
course, things go missing, and

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tasks don't get aligned
properly, as compared with the

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alternative, which is to have
people collaborating, be it

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virtually be in a meeting space,
where there isn't anyone

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facilitate, there isn't anyone
sort of directing the

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conversation or, but but that
the group is, to some extent

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self managing, they're self
empowered, and tasks are

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directed between one another
rather than through an

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intermediary. So there's a kind
of a general loss of

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productivity through silos. And
it's not to say, by the way,

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that all silos are bad all the
time. Okay. So there are

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situations where, you know, by
virtue of needing and say, for

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example, a bank, you need to
have Chinese walls for the guys

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running risk, they actually have
to be separated out from the

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guys in the day to day running
of the business, but in general

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terms, they're bad. I mean, I
think we're probably all

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familiar with and if we're not,
then Conway's Law is a good

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reference point here. So going
back to, you know, the start of

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when manufacturing, you know,
big star manufacturing the likes

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of Henry Ford, they started out
with this idea that would break

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a task down to component parts,
and we'll have people specialize

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in those parts. And that that
was the origination of, of, of,

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of the side of the specialist
task. And then the accountants,

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when they came in, on top of
that, they set up a chart of

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accounts. And Conway's Law says,
Well, okay, if we have that

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chart, we can send we have, you
know, manufacturing, and we have

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supply and purchasing, well,
then we'll have separate

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accounts for those people,
separate office spaces, separate

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silos, and, and they become
rigid, and the software systems

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then tend to mirror those. So
the, the flow of data tends to

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go from the procurement system,
which is standalone to the

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accounting system, and we have,
you know, connections between

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them,

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Jason Baum: you know, cuz even
silos, you have multiple silos,

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right? You have silos of teams,
and you have silos of data. And,

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you know, I mean, you can have
so many different silos within a

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company.

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Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah,
classically in it have had, you

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know, silos of test silos of DEV
silos of analysis. So you have

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these teams of people who
literally threw the work over

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the wall to one another, with
the project manager kind of

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hovering above them. When you
look at a modern DevOps team,

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it's a team that, that that has
the resources to get code into

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production, ideally, one feature
at a time, right? to reference

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the book. Because when you're
doing it one feature at a time,

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you can very distinctly and
clearly see the value you get

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from that unique feature, as
opposed to the 10 features if

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you release all 10 together, so
having a team that that that can

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interact with one another for
the express purpose and the

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common purpose of getting a
feature into production. And

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that that's, that tends to be
and it is the most productive

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way for for software to be
delivered. But it's not easy to

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get there. Because especially if
teams have been working in those

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silos for quite some time, they
become somewhat

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institutionalized to that way of
working. And I've, I've worked

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with, one of the clients that I
worked with was an insurance

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company. And I remember the lady
who headed up the business

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analysis team kind of being
horrified that, you know, she

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couldn't produce a 300 page set
of requirements that sounded

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heavy when it hit the desk, you
know, it had to be, No, we just

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weren't actually going to build
next week, just actually two

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pages. And if you could draw
some pictures that would really

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help. And it really was a, you
know, it really was a challenge.

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And I understood that the lady
had been working with a team of

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15 people are producing. And in
fact, some of her bonus system

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was around having, you know,
producing these these documents

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that the customer would sign
off. And the customer was really

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impressed when the document was
big and heavy. Not sure they

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ever read it. But and the other
point about it was of course, by

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the time they came around to
delivering everything in that

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book, some of it was no longer
needed, which is which is really

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the waste so they're they're
building features, but the

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offered the opportunity to
market has done by for when we

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work collaboratively and outside
of those silos. Well, we're

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automatically attuned to that.
So our product owner is checking

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Do we still need this? Hey, we
just deployed, nobody used it,

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do we really need it? You know,
and that gives rise to insights

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that wouldn't otherwise arise.
until somewhat later if you're

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not building one feature at a
time.

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Jason Baum: So there's, you've
triggered a lot of things in my

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head. Sorry. So no, it's good.
So now I want to kind of review

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it and and see if I'm wrong,
right. But the first thing that

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I think of I love the one
feature at a time, by the way, I

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think that concept is great. I
think many times we think,

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several features down the line,
and we get lost in future rather

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than today. Right? We are we
that's, it can get overwhelming,

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it can get complex. We actually,
we talked about that on this

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podcast a while ago with Mark
Peters. And, and I think we

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reference, maybe it was me, I
referenced What About Bob and

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Richard Dreyfus is baby steps. I
don't know if you're familiar

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with the concept, but it's, you
know, it's pretty, pretty

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popular. I mean, the movie came
out, I think, in the 80s. But I

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think it still holds true, that
concept of baby steps, you know,

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one step at a time, very similar
to one feature at a time

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concept. The other thing is, you
know, when you have group

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collaboration, I guess, I think
people believe that's the right

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way to go about it. But they
don't know how, because who owns

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it is like still the current
it's still thought about, oh,

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well, okay, great, we can all
talk about it, we can all

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ideally, but at the end of the
day, who owns it, right, who's

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whose responsibility is tied to
it.

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Brendan O'Reilly: So for me, and
the word product will be in the

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job title, as in product owner,
product manager, and as whether

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that person is permanently in
the team are has a

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representative in the team.
That's, that's kind of a another

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point. But I think, you know,
even though we're going to

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release one feature at a time,
we do have to have a vision for

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the product. And that becomes a
cohesive force for the team, not

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just the team building features
one to four, but also the team

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building features four to eight
and so forth. So that, that that

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person is the person who is, in
my opinion, one of the most

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pivotal roles. They're able to
engage engineers, customers,

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competitors, and, and prioritize
the work, okay, what are we

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going to build, then the
engineers build it, then we see

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how, what it looks like, we get
the feedback, and we start

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again, but it's, it's, it's done
very collaboratively. So let me

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give you an example. You know,
it could be the case that the

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product owner really wants to
try and build features one and

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two. But when the engineers look
at how the code is structured,

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they kind of point out that,
hey, if we're gonna change

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feature to make more sensitive,
feature three within this sprint

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or this iteration, and we'll
come to feature one of the

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letter later stage, so we kind
of collaborate those to make

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sure that we're we're at our
most productive. I think in

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terms of the ideation let me let
me talk about something that is

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really dear to my heart. I,
everybody can have a good idea.

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Absolutely. Everyone, Steve Jobs
talked about, you know, in bad

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companies, it's the people who
shout loudest, who can good

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companies, it's the people with
really good ideas that float to

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the top. And I think companies
should put in place a continuous

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innovation process, a bounty for
ideas that work. So whether it's

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on your team, or whether it's
the CEO, our the guy who just

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joined the company, as an
intern, they're all capable

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having a good idea. And we need
that we need our backlogs, you

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know, to be full of ideas, and
we need our product owner,

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whoever it is to prioritize
those. I mean, let me give you

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an amazing stat booking.com has
at any moment in time, 1000

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experiments underway. And in an
average year, we'll run the

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30,000 Now, now, Jason, here's a
challenge to you, what

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percentage of those Palouse to
be good ideas that actually add

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value? Have a guess?

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Jason Baum: My guess is maybe
one to 2%? Oh, you're

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Brendan O'Reilly: a little bit
out, it's actually closer to 10.

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Okay, but that means that like,
90% Yeah, don't work. But that

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doesn't stop them, right?
Because the ones that work out

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are the ones that that yield,
you know, a competitive

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advantage. And it is a very fast
moving world. So, you know,

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those companies, companies like
booking.com, they have these

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innovation backlogs. And that
comes from having a

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collaborative spirit that
transcends silos, that the the

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look, I digress, we can talk
about innovation another day,

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we're here to talk about silos.

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Jason Baum: I still think
actually 10% is actually pretty

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high to me, because, you know, I
don't know I don't pretend to

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believe that 90% of my ideas are
well, I'd heard that 10% of my

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ideas are good. I actually tend
to think that most of them are

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bad and then the ones that are
good. Hopefully they're Really

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good, you know, and I guess it's
that same, that same concept.

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But we kind of touched on
initiating that breakdown of

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silos. I, you know, one of my
passions right now, and then

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I've really been diving into is
the customer experience side of

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things and and I see there's a
big connection to employee

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experience too. So silos very
much interest me. What is the

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role of feedback in in breaking
down silos?

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Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah, so
feedback is the Breakfast of

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Champions Cup, told me that I
know, is it a great book? Yeah,

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I can't remember who originally
you have to google that

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afterwards. Without feedback,
we're like, in a car traveling

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across the desert, the lights
are on, it's dark, all the

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lights, all the windows are
blank days, and we're just

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driving around aimlessly, and
we're gonna get lost. So

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feedback tells us whether we're
actually succeeding or not in

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our in our purpose, you know, so
it's, it's, it's by far the most

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important and that the sooner
you get it, the better, right.

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And there's a whole bunch of
really good tools out there to

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help you get it in real time.
So, you know, tools like New

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Relic and launch darkly, and
these tools, you know, allow you

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to put one feature into one
domain, for example, a

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geographic domain, see how it's
working. And if it's working,

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then roll it out, if not
deprecate the feature and start

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again. So there's no reason not
to be constantly running these

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AP tests and getting your
feedback, particularly in the

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b2c environment, obviously, in a
in a sort of b2b world or in

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internal applications. It's more
difficult, right? It's not as

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straightforward as I've just
described, just to touch on the

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initiation, I think, you know,
one of the things that so much

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depends on context. So I work
with a range of organizations

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from startup to growth to, you
know, full scale multinational

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corporations. And generally
speaking, the siloing kind of

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creeps in as they go from growth
stage to multinational, that's

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when I tend, you know, up until
that point, people, people are

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tasked with doing multiple
things. And so the silos are

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less obvious. But then as you
want to grow and become a little

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bit better at things you tend to
want to silo after work. When

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you get into the MNC world, it
can be Yeah, it can be full on

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silos. So one of the thing that
really works, there is things

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like book clubs and hackathons,
you know, to get people to start

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to meet one another again, and
to, Hey, I didn't know you

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worked here, and you're the guy
that was on that email trail,

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that kind of conversation really
helps. And, you know, books

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about organizations like that,
that particular reference I made

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to booking.com as a Harvard
Business Review paper, you know,

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you could read it in 20 minutes,
you share it with your

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colleagues, you invite them for
a brown bag, lunch, maybe bring

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in a vendor, we do a lot of this
kind of stuff. We'll come in

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and, and host a lunch.

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00:17:57,450 --> 00:18:00,390
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after trial activation. From the
employee side, I guess I still

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00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:05,490
have some questions about
employee feedback when it

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pertains to it. And then also
relating it to a remote

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environment. What are some of
the unique challenges that are

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00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:13,710
remote environment present? With
sound?

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Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah, so yeah,
so here's, here's the thing,

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right? I think it's a really
good point, people, when when

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that feedback comes to those
that are kind of new on the job,

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or inexperienced or perhaps
really proud about getting a

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feature, right, and the feedback
comes that we've to deprecate

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the feature, that's a bit of a
crushing moment for the person

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who loves to hear it, okay. And
when it's remote, it's even more

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difficult because whereas, you
know, a manager could a product

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owner who go and sit beside the
individual and say, Hey, I know

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it didn't work out, but it's
good because now we're going to

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avoid a cul de sac. We're going
to have another goal. We're

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going to try going this way.
We're still attempting to

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00:19:50,340 --> 00:19:53,130
achieve this with the product.
It's just that particular route

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00:19:53,130 --> 00:19:58,830
didn't work out. When that
happens remotely. You know, it

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00:19:58,830 --> 00:20:02,280
doesn't have the ability to just
put your hand on the guy's back

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00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,060
or the ladies back and say, Hey,
good job. You know, not

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00:20:06,060 --> 00:20:09,600
everything can can can work out,
well, the software was well

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00:20:09,630 --> 00:20:12,510
built, it's just a feature isn't
required by users My bad, you

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00:20:12,510 --> 00:20:14,880
know, it's my bad that as a
product owner, I picked that

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wrong feature. So I think it's,
it's, it's really difficult to

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00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:21,870
get that sincerity across in a
kind of a, you know, ways around

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that are when you you know, when
you have a an all hands on the

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Zoom to say, Hey, listen,
particularly thank to engineer a

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or b for their for their for
their hard work. And we've

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00:20:32,850 --> 00:20:36,990
learned from that. And, again,
it's a case of Try, try and try

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00:20:36,990 --> 00:20:41,370
again until we get it right, you
know, but yeah, it can be

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crushing if you're the engineer
that whose feature is just no

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00:20:44,010 --> 00:20:45,000
cost to one side.

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Jason Baum: Yeah. Yeah, it's
interesting. I mean, all hands

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on Zoom. I mean, the VR stand
ups. That was what the team last

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week at modern was doing. They
were doing it. I don't know, if

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they were doing it once a day. I
think they were doing once a

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day, like an hour with their
with their development team in

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in VR. And it was a different
experience. I think it got them

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00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,060
excited. The CEO was telling me,
Jonathan Schneider, you know, it

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was just different. It got them.
I think they were a little more

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engaged. Maybe they could
collaborate more. So that that

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00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:22,230
was one example from from last
week that was shared with me.

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Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah, so let
me let me just add to that,

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that's really interesting. So
the university the where I did

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00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:30,600
the lecture, it's it Carlo,
there are just a region in

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Ireland. And they are working on
the production of a virtual

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DevOps simulation. Okay, so
they've created a workspace.

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It's cool. It's kind of
interesting. So I'm diverting,

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00:21:43,290 --> 00:21:45,930
so you might need to get back on
track, but they created this

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00:21:46,110 --> 00:21:50,430
workspace scene, where they put
the devs downstairs and the

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00:21:51,450 --> 00:21:53,880
tests upstairs. So you have to
trudge up the stairs to get your

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00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,340
test results and back down
again. And then you know, guess

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what, we move the two side by
side, we put a Kanban board up

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00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,460
and we can, you know, we can
improve. But it was really

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00:22:02,460 --> 00:22:06,510
interesting, when we brought
people who we brought them in to

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00:22:06,510 --> 00:22:09,630
do the CNA right, you know, and
then we sat them down, we said,

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00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:11,520
so let's do a retrospective
here. What what do you think,

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00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:16,140
what would work? What should we
improve? And you know, nobody,

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00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:19,170
you have to really say, Well, we
could move the furniture. Oh,

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00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,250
right. Yeah. Okay. Well,

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Jason Baum: why don't? I think
sometimes it's generating

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excitement, right. Again, I
think sometimes when you're

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00:22:26,820 --> 00:22:30,210
sitting in the same space, you
know, when we're in an office,

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we do get up and we do
collaborate, we do have those

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coffee minutes, and we do have
the trip to the lunch room. And

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we do have times when we're just
not sitting and working, coding

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whatever we're doing. You know,
it is we are generally for the

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00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,370
most part collaborative. People
even when we're in silos, I

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think we are still collaborative
amongst, like I was saying in

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the intro that the teams and and
hopefully more in DevOps, I

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00:22:57,540 --> 00:23:00,750
don't know if that's true. But
yeah, I think that's a piece

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00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:04,050
that's just generally missing is
potentially the excitement that

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00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:05,700
sometimes you get from others.

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00:23:06,180 --> 00:23:09,420
Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah. And,
yeah, I mean, I think you've

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00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:11,910
touched on something there,
which is that sometimes when

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00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:16,350
people are in silos, it can turn
it can turn into, we all do the

385
00:23:16,350 --> 00:23:18,990
same thing. We all have the same
conversation. And if we're not

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00:23:18,990 --> 00:23:21,600
in the, if we're not in the
right frame of mind, that can

387
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,280
turn into what we call a mon
fast, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So

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00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,360
whereas if we have, if we have a
connection to the customer, are

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00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:33,510
to the fact that we're competing
for business, or, you know, if

390
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:37,410
we have that connection, then
energy flows in I mean, energy

391
00:23:37,410 --> 00:23:41,580
is this in intangible thing, but
it's very present, you can, you

392
00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:44,220
can see a team that's energized
versus a team that's not you

393
00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:47,430
know, the team that's energized,
works through lunch, you get a

394
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:50,190
lot of discretionary effort at
weekends, we've got to go live,

395
00:23:50,220 --> 00:23:53,790
you know, and we're when we're
happening, the team that's not

396
00:23:53,790 --> 00:23:56,880
energized, is trying to figure
out how to knock off fairly and

397
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,530
avoid responsibility and so
forth. So yeah, that that kind

398
00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:06,510
of your rights, excitement is
energy, it's, it's an essential

399
00:24:06,510 --> 00:24:09,120
element of, of a collaborative
team,

400
00:24:09,179 --> 00:24:10,439
Jason Baum: you know, when you
can feel it, you can feel it

401
00:24:10,439 --> 00:24:12,719
when someone's new, when
someone's new, they come in,

402
00:24:12,719 --> 00:24:15,179
they're energized, they have new
ideas, they're throwing things

403
00:24:15,179 --> 00:24:17,969
out, Hey, you might have talked
about as a team 500 times, they

404
00:24:17,969 --> 00:24:19,739
don't know, but they're gonna
throw it out, and they're

405
00:24:19,739 --> 00:24:22,739
excited about it. Maybe that fit
100 time, and you heard it from

406
00:24:22,739 --> 00:24:25,709
an excited person, maybe all of
a sudden things start, you know,

407
00:24:25,709 --> 00:24:28,109
moving and clicking up there.
And they usually bring

408
00:24:28,109 --> 00:24:31,529
excitement to the rest of the
team. I wonder if feedback plays

409
00:24:31,529 --> 00:24:34,589
a role into that? Because maybe
there are ways that we can

410
00:24:34,949 --> 00:24:38,519
generate excitement that doesn't
just have to be someone new to a

411
00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:41,999
team, but yeah, I don't know.
I'm just kind of riffing on

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00:24:41,999 --> 00:24:42,329
that.

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00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:44,640
Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah, well, I
think I think you know, a good

414
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,490
scrum master Are you know that
the person that runs the

415
00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:52,320
retrospective, will generally
try to elicit from all team

416
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,450
members but particularly the new
team members, I must tell you an

417
00:24:54,450 --> 00:24:56,250
interesting story about an
airline that I worked with

418
00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:58,980
really interesting one, you
know, a good a good scrum master

419
00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:01,920
will try to elicit ideas and
feedback. So we'll obviously do

420
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,110
the retro and we'll talk about
what we could have done better.

421
00:25:04,110 --> 00:25:06,810
But then we'll try to say, well,
who's had experience with this

422
00:25:06,810 --> 00:25:10,260
elsewhere and what has happened
elsewhere. Now, one particular

423
00:25:10,260 --> 00:25:13,950
client, a team member left, went
away, worked for another

424
00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:17,340
organization and came back about
nine months later. And the

425
00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:20,790
retros suddenly got really
interesting, because that person

426
00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:24,120
came back with a bunch of new
ideas and things that they had

427
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:26,580
experienced over that nine month
period, which they were able to

428
00:25:26,580 --> 00:25:29,640
bring into the team. Now within
that organization, they also

429
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,280
have another role, which is an
Agile coach, which is somebody

430
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,330
who transcends the teams. So
they drop into the retros for

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00:25:36,330 --> 00:25:40,710
the deployed 1617 dev teams, our
delivery teams to give them the

432
00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:43,140
correct title, because they are
tasked with putting code into

433
00:25:43,140 --> 00:25:46,980
prod. So you know, the Agile
coach has to take the best ideas

434
00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:49,620
from one and make sure that they
they transcend. So it becomes a

435
00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:53,550
kind of very standard way of
working for the teams. So that

436
00:25:53,550 --> 00:25:56,130
people need to move between
teams that will feel like hey,

437
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,830
I'm not just moved to another
planet, I'm just moved next door

438
00:25:58,830 --> 00:26:01,680
to the team that's working on
features, different features,

439
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:07,860
the one that I'm on, so that
feedback, I would say is also

440
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:12,150
let's incorporate shared
experience there. So wherever it

441
00:26:12,150 --> 00:26:15,630
may have come from, and wherever
it may come from, it could come

442
00:26:15,630 --> 00:26:20,520
from books, training courses,
YouTube's like I love people to

443
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,680
be curious in teams, you know?
Can we can we find a way to, to

444
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,770
think about a problem? Can we
get a bit of timeout can can

445
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,930
can, you know, between? Sprints
could we get maybe a half a day

446
00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:38,460
to just spend some time
researching new areas. And if

447
00:26:38,460 --> 00:26:41,310
those areas seem to America, we
get a little bit of time out of

448
00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:44,850
production to explore them
further. Get some funding, and

449
00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:47,490
perhaps we can build something
or create something of value

450
00:26:47,490 --> 00:26:50,910
that can be shared across the
entire team, all themes.

451
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,210
Jason Baum: Yeah, it's, it's
interesting. So those who listen

452
00:26:54,210 --> 00:26:59,010
to the podcast know that I am a
sports fan. And American

453
00:26:59,010 --> 00:27:02,640
football in particular. And what
you're describing to me, I'm

454
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,950
thinking about it. And something
I heard about. Coach Bill

455
00:27:07,950 --> 00:27:16,020
Belichick is that he trains his
to his coaches to fill multiple

456
00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:20,130
roles. So it's very standard,
you'll have like a wide receiver

457
00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:22,860
coach or quarterbacks coach or
running back and they filled

458
00:27:22,860 --> 00:27:27,210
those roles. But he moves them
around from year to year to

459
00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:31,950
build well rounded coaches so
that they could fill in whatever

460
00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:35,940
spot they need to be in. And I
mean, the idea is to make them

461
00:27:35,940 --> 00:27:39,870
just better, well rounded
thinking, holistically thinking,

462
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:42,840
you know, and gosh, that can be
applied. That's exactly what

463
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:43,920
you're talking about. Right?

464
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,400
Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah. I mean,
I bet you when they bring their

465
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,490
fresh mind, if they're a
defensive coach, and they bring

466
00:27:50,490 --> 00:27:54,960
their that mindset to a new way,
they'll ask just lots of dumb

467
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,630
questions. There is no such
thing. You know, there's just

468
00:27:57,630 --> 00:27:59,850
lots of really good questions
that you haven't thought of

469
00:27:59,850 --> 00:28:04,560
before. And actually, I coach
soccer, I think you call it

470
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,540
soccer, right? As opposed to
football, football.

471
00:28:07,140 --> 00:28:09,960
Jason Baum: We call it we, it
doesn't make any sense. But

472
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:11,010
that's that's what we do.

473
00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:15,630
Brendan O'Reilly: We call I
coach soccer and had that

474
00:28:15,630 --> 00:28:20,850
experience of working with a guy
who was very offense oriented.

475
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,880
And I was defense oriented, and
it worked well. And then we did

476
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,060
the Have you heard that? The
Wright brothers had they used to

477
00:28:27,060 --> 00:28:30,000
work it was Orville. Have you
heard this story?

478
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,489
Jason Baum: I well, I know the
Wright brothers. But

479
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,400
Brendan O'Reilly: yeah, yeah. So
there was, here's what they used

480
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,910
to do. Right? This is really
interesting. So one of them

481
00:28:38,910 --> 00:28:42,990
would have an idea, okay. And in
the morning, they would argue

482
00:28:42,990 --> 00:28:46,530
over this idea. So in the
morning, one of them would argue

483
00:28:46,530 --> 00:28:49,560
for, and the other guy would
argue against and these would

484
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,640
sometimes turns into, these
would be shouting matches. Then

485
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,740
they would go to lunch, and
they'd come back, and then they

486
00:28:55,740 --> 00:28:59,550
would invert the opposite, or
the opposite, right? So you know

487
00:28:59,550 --> 00:29:03,030
that that that concept? I found
that worked really well with my

488
00:29:03,390 --> 00:29:05,250
colleague when he was the
offensive coach, I was a

489
00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:07,920
defensive coach. Oh, he used to
take turns it just say, okay,

490
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,310
that match. Let's review it.
Okay, you do the offense review?

491
00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:14,010
I'll do the Defense Review. And
we'll we'll Yeah,

492
00:29:14,250 --> 00:29:16,470
Jason Baum: it's a great
exercise because it does make

493
00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:19,860
you think outside potentially
your comfort zone, and thinking

494
00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:22,950
the other person's shoes. I
mean, that. That's, that's a

495
00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:26,010
great exercise. I'm sure the the
quality of the product could

496
00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:29,340
just improve based on your
knowledge of,

497
00:29:29,730 --> 00:29:32,100
Brendan O'Reilly: yeah, I just
want to I don't know how it

498
00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:35,370
worked in, in football, but we
did that with our team. So with,

499
00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:39,660
when we finished the match, we
do the review. 15 guys are

500
00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:41,670
waiting to go for their beer,
but nobody's going anywhere

501
00:29:41,670 --> 00:29:44,460
until we've had that
conversation. And then we just

502
00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:47,400
pick out the two or three things
that we want to improve. Yeah,

503
00:29:47,580 --> 00:29:50,190
Jason Baum: yeah. No, I mean,
Coach Belichick. I mean, and I

504
00:29:50,190 --> 00:29:52,500
don't know how many other code
maybe other coaches do it. I'm

505
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:56,220
sure they singled him out
because he wins a lot. You know,

506
00:29:56,610 --> 00:29:58,650
you know, he'll take a defensive
line coach in the next year.

507
00:29:58,650 --> 00:30:02,640
He'll be an offensive line
coach. So like, and throwing

508
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,610
them into the fire, but seems to
work.

509
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:07,529
Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah. And I
think it's a route to management

510
00:30:07,529 --> 00:30:10,979
as well. I mean, I work with a
coach some of the, you know CTOs

511
00:30:11,309 --> 00:30:15,059
when he's got when we're looking
at developing people and talent.

512
00:30:15,059 --> 00:30:16,889
And so what you really want
them, especially if they come

513
00:30:16,889 --> 00:30:19,739
in, and they're just working in,
say, a dev role, but they could

514
00:30:19,739 --> 00:30:23,309
be working in an SRE role, or
they could be working in test,

515
00:30:23,369 --> 00:30:26,939
you really want them to have
that all round experience so

516
00:30:26,939 --> 00:30:31,349
that when they are leaders, they
actually have walked the walk.

517
00:30:31,979 --> 00:30:34,949
And they can they can, you know,
understand and appreciate the

518
00:30:34,949 --> 00:30:37,259
perspective of all of the
individuals in their teams. And

519
00:30:37,259 --> 00:30:40,769
that helps with, you know, I
mean, we're not talking about

520
00:30:40,769 --> 00:30:43,799
silos. Now, we're talking about,
you know, individual performance

521
00:30:44,159 --> 00:30:46,859
improvements that we can, we can
look for and realistically

522
00:30:46,859 --> 00:30:47,699
expect as well.

523
00:30:47,940 --> 00:30:51,000
Jason Baum: But is that is that
one of because I was just about

524
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,520
to ask you, when when we're
fostering cross silo

525
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,150
collaboration, you know, I think
one thing that has to be kept in

526
00:30:57,150 --> 00:31:04,320
mind as making it not seem
artificial, or unnatural. is

527
00:31:04,410 --> 00:31:08,520
self improvement, you know,
improving, you're improving your

528
00:31:08,550 --> 00:31:12,090
own capabilities and
understandings and becoming more

529
00:31:12,090 --> 00:31:16,560
well rounded. On on everything
else, doesn't that kind of,

530
00:31:16,590 --> 00:31:21,240
isn't that one way to do it make
you more aware of what other

531
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,000
teams are doing potentially what
someone else in a different role

532
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,160
is doing? Is that one way to do
that?

533
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,050
Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah,
absolutely. I mean, to the

534
00:31:31,050 --> 00:31:35,970
individual within any team wants
to be able to add value,

535
00:31:36,270 --> 00:31:40,770
ideally, around their specialist
skill. But equally, they want to

536
00:31:40,770 --> 00:31:44,460
raise the game for the others in
the team. So they want to be

537
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:47,130
able to help other people be
more productive. I mean, I'll

538
00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:50,850
give you an example. This is
very typical. But again, one of

539
00:31:50,850 --> 00:31:54,420
my clients, when they analyze
the code that actually works,

540
00:31:54,420 --> 00:31:56,610
the code that goes into
production, there's probably a

541
00:31:56,610 --> 00:32:00,450
small number of engineers that
actually do that. And there's a

542
00:32:00,450 --> 00:32:03,930
large number of engineers that
write kind of code that needs to

543
00:32:03,930 --> 00:32:08,850
be then fixed up after the
event. What what, what has to

544
00:32:08,850 --> 00:32:12,210
happen next is the engineers
that aren't getting their code

545
00:32:12,210 --> 00:32:14,310
into prod, they need to be
helped, they need to be coached,

546
00:32:14,460 --> 00:32:17,310
the best way for them to do that
is to look at how, how the

547
00:32:17,310 --> 00:32:20,760
senior engineer has actually
edited and change the code. And

548
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:26,430
to do that openly, right. So to
have a review, this code is is,

549
00:32:26,910 --> 00:32:29,220
is better now because we
restructured how we had we

550
00:32:29,220 --> 00:32:32,100
designed it, built it and so
forth. And then that engineer,

551
00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:33,990
the engineer that's on the
learning side of things gets

552
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:36,420
better and grows and hopefully
goes on to become that senior

553
00:32:36,420 --> 00:32:39,720
engineer, it's a normal kind of
a path, saying for tests, same

554
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,260
for all of the other
disciplines. So yeah. And then

555
00:32:43,290 --> 00:32:46,380
when they get when they get
better at doing those things,

556
00:32:46,380 --> 00:32:50,640
they can move on to doing other
things. Yeah, it's also a real

557
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,860
tension, because of course,
you've got really good engineers

558
00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:55,350
that are producing really high
quality code, you know, do you

559
00:32:55,350 --> 00:32:58,230
really want them to be managers,
and very often, by the way,

560
00:32:58,230 --> 00:33:00,150
those individuals become
managers and say, Hey, this

561
00:33:00,150 --> 00:33:01,950
isn't for me, I just wanna get
back to writing software that

562
00:33:01,950 --> 00:33:05,160
works, you know, so, but it's
all part of the part of the fun

563
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,080
and games, but definitely, in
terms of breaking down the

564
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,350
silos, and making it easier to
move people between teams, those

565
00:33:10,350 --> 00:33:13,650
kinds of behaviors, that
openness, that transparency, and

566
00:33:13,650 --> 00:33:18,060
that that culture, you know, you
know, it's interesting, one of

567
00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:21,840
the companies that do a lot of
work with, that frightens people

568
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,050
off, if you're not an engineer
that's comfortable to have your

569
00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:30,030
code explored and reviewed, peer
reviewed. You probably don't,

570
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:32,160
you're not going to fit in, you
know, they have an expression in

571
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,070
that particular customer
account, if your last six days,

572
00:33:35,070 --> 00:33:39,060
your last six years. But if on
the seventh day, you're feeling

573
00:33:39,060 --> 00:33:42,600
really uncomfortable, and yeah,
good luck. does happen, you

574
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:43,680
know, people just won't stay.

575
00:33:44,490 --> 00:33:48,120
Jason Baum: This might not, this
might be an example. And forgive

576
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,460
me because again, so if you
listen to this podcast, you

577
00:33:50,460 --> 00:33:53,460
know, I have a four year old
daughter, and everything in my

578
00:33:53,460 --> 00:33:56,730
life right now is surrounded
like everything goes back to

579
00:33:56,730 --> 00:34:02,460
parenting, and enter. And an
interesting example of this is

580
00:34:02,460 --> 00:34:07,770
the company Disney. Walt Disney
has a team of of artists right

581
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,850
now they're digital artists, but
they are they are artists. And

582
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,860
you know, whether you're coding
whether you're whether you're

583
00:34:13,860 --> 00:34:16,530
drawing, you know, they're
working on collaborative teams,

584
00:34:16,830 --> 00:34:19,980
and then they have peer reviews.
We were watching them the

585
00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:22,920
documentary about the making of
frozen their biggest franchise

586
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,270
hit right. And they have several
peer reviews for just one cell,

587
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:32,160
right one cell of the movie, get
seen by like 15 people they sit,

588
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,920
they talk about it, what could
they do differently. They'll

589
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,880
have you know, the directors
will be there, the producer will

590
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,480
be there, they'll pick it apart,
make them go back to the drawing

591
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,960
board, redo it, come back
present it again and it is just

592
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,720
constantly analyzed, but by a
team collaboratively. And they

593
00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:56,460
produce they take those same
designers and and or those same

594
00:34:56,820 --> 00:35:00,990
artists, and they'll be working
on another feature film while

595
00:35:00,990 --> 00:35:03,690
they're working on that, and
they're just doing these

596
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:06,390
different scenes. And so they're
just dropping a plate picking

597
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:09,750
them up moving them on to
something else. And, and, but

598
00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:12,300
then collaborative,
collaboratively coming back and

599
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:15,240
talking about holistically how
it fits into that. And I

600
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:20,010
thought, wow, that's that's kind
of what we're talking about a

601
00:35:20,010 --> 00:35:23,700
little bit. And I feel like
Disney does it so well, because

602
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:27,300
they produce so much content in
a year.

603
00:35:28,169 --> 00:35:30,539
Brendan O'Reilly: So it's really
interesting. My youngest son is

604
00:35:30,629 --> 00:35:32,159
24. And he's an animator.

605
00:35:32,759 --> 00:35:34,829
Jason Baum: Okay, so you know a
little bit about this.

606
00:35:35,099 --> 00:35:38,129
Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah. Well,
oddly enough, yeah. So when I

607
00:35:38,129 --> 00:35:41,219
first when he first started to
work as an animator, two or

608
00:35:41,219 --> 00:35:44,159
three years ago now, and we
started talking about how work

609
00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:47,489
was organized. And guess what a
lot of the core concepts for

610
00:35:47,489 --> 00:35:50,579
software engineers originated
out of Disney, this idea of a

611
00:35:50,579 --> 00:35:55,289
storyboard and visualization of
work, and they use JIRA. And so

612
00:35:55,289 --> 00:35:58,349
he was only working there in
this company for a very short

613
00:35:58,349 --> 00:36:01,169
period of time. And he started
talking to me like, and this

614
00:36:01,169 --> 00:36:03,509
release, and that sprint and
other oh, wait a minute, this

615
00:36:03,539 --> 00:36:08,849
this kid. He's right up there
with it. So the thing that also

616
00:36:08,879 --> 00:36:10,739
occurred to me when you were
when you were speaking, though,

617
00:36:10,739 --> 00:36:14,999
was kind of, there's a real
tension here between the context

618
00:36:14,999 --> 00:36:18,809
switching that's required to go
from a piece of work, I'm really

619
00:36:18,809 --> 00:36:21,779
intensely focused on now, to
kind of getting my head out of

620
00:36:21,779 --> 00:36:25,469
that and going and looking at
another piece of work. Now in in

621
00:36:25,469 --> 00:36:30,719
software terms, what we try to
do is we try to, we automate how

622
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,929
we build the software. So we
have this idea of continuously

623
00:36:33,929 --> 00:36:36,869
integrating, integrating the
code that all of the engineers

624
00:36:36,869 --> 00:36:39,779
are working on. So that we can
be objective is is to kind of

625
00:36:39,779 --> 00:36:44,009
break the bills right now,
historically, that was a bad

626
00:36:44,009 --> 00:36:46,109
thing, people who sort of fear
of breaking the bill, but

627
00:36:46,109 --> 00:36:47,699
actually breaking the bill is a
good thing. Because we need to

628
00:36:47,699 --> 00:36:50,549
know now not in six weeks time
when we have to do a compute

629
00:36:50,549 --> 00:36:55,289
context switch to get back and
look at what was broken. I saw I

630
00:36:55,289 --> 00:36:58,979
must I'm now curious, I'm now
gonna ask my my son. So when

631
00:36:58,979 --> 00:37:00,869
you're asked to do the peer
review on something that's

632
00:37:00,899 --> 00:37:03,239
nothing to do with what you're
currently working on, is that a

633
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,109
bit of a head melt? Is it good?
Is it a good switch off or

634
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:10,139
something? Because in general,
when when an engineer is asked

635
00:37:10,139 --> 00:37:14,069
to work on something until it
works, that's the system right?

636
00:37:14,069 --> 00:37:16,049
We don't really want to have to
come back to that in six weeks

637
00:37:16,049 --> 00:37:18,059
time and fix it, because now
we've got the wreck in each

638
00:37:18,059 --> 00:37:22,379
context, which is about an 11%
overhead. That's sorry, that's

639
00:37:22,379 --> 00:37:24,959
for the first while, right for
the first context, which the

640
00:37:24,959 --> 00:37:28,619
second is 33%. Okay, so now
we've lost a third of a working

641
00:37:28,619 --> 00:37:31,289
day, we just switch context
wise. And after that, it goes

642
00:37:31,289 --> 00:37:33,509
exponential. It's just like, I'm
getting nothing done, because

643
00:37:33,509 --> 00:37:34,949
I'm just moving between tasks,
you

644
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:37,860
Jason Baum: know, but I wonder
to bring it back to something we

645
00:37:37,860 --> 00:37:41,610
had talked about earlier. I
wonder if that keeps the energy

646
00:37:41,610 --> 00:37:44,850
level up? Or is it frustrating?
I don't know. Because, you know,

647
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,400
maybe it keeps it fresh. You're
not constantly on the same

648
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,310
thing. I don't know, if you're
pulling your hair out because of

649
00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:53,040
an issue and you can just jump
off it for a day working on

650
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,160
something else? I don't know.
Maybe it does to see, you know,

651
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,500
that's that's maybe a positive
take on it.

652
00:37:59,490 --> 00:38:01,470
Brendan O'Reilly: Yeah, I mean,
yeah, sometimes they change can

653
00:38:01,470 --> 00:38:03,840
be as good as a rest, you know,
right. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean,

654
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,410
it certainly if you're rattling
on whatever the problem is, and

655
00:38:07,410 --> 00:38:10,680
you're kind of iterating on a
piece of code with some some

656
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,660
engineers and just getting
nowhere there is a point it's

657
00:38:12,660 --> 00:38:16,530
like, if you do crosswords a
Sudoko. Sleep on it. And in the

658
00:38:16,530 --> 00:38:18,390
morning, things seem to be
clearer.

659
00:38:18,420 --> 00:38:20,940
Jason Baum: It'll come to you
into in the in the morning,

660
00:38:20,970 --> 00:38:25,770
right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and
look, some of these practices to

661
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,730
bring it back to remote. It does
make it difficult to to do some

662
00:38:29,730 --> 00:38:34,710
of this peer review and to
collaborate and, you know,

663
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:38,010
sometimes even just looking at
the same thing at the same time

664
00:38:38,010 --> 00:38:41,730
with someone else, if you're not
in the same room, that can make

665
00:38:41,730 --> 00:38:42,720
it difficult. So,

666
00:38:43,170 --> 00:38:44,790
Brendan O'Reilly: okay, but let
me give you some upside. So I

667
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:49,290
did a call with with three or
four CTOs. I wrote a blog about

668
00:38:49,290 --> 00:38:51,150
it. Actually, I think I'm gonna
share it with you the remote

669
00:38:51,180 --> 00:38:55,350
working learnings. There's a
couple of upsides. So normally,

670
00:38:55,350 --> 00:38:58,620
the CTOs that I spoke with, were
quite happy to have their

671
00:38:58,620 --> 00:39:01,230
engineers work remote because
there was less or they go drive

672
00:39:01,230 --> 00:39:03,510
by shootings. Are you familiar
with that expression?

673
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:07,230
Jason Baum: In this context,
okay, so,

674
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:10,260
Brendan O'Reilly: so engineers
sitting at his desk and a

675
00:39:10,260 --> 00:39:14,370
customer by power, you know, one
of the business guys bypasses

676
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,540
all of the procedure in terms of
the sprint and all that kind of

677
00:39:18,540 --> 00:39:21,180
thing just drives by and says,
Hey, you wouldn't just give it

678
00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:24,510
10 minutes and fix this for me.
And, you know, some engineer

679
00:39:24,510 --> 00:39:28,260
gets kind of shot as they drive
by right, so, so less of that

680
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:34,620
more opportunity for focus.
Another big upside was people

681
00:39:34,620 --> 00:39:40,530
who tended to be quieter at
reviews in the virtual in the

682
00:39:40,530 --> 00:39:45,720
Zoom world. You know, the person
controlling the Zoom could mute

683
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:49,800
everybody and ask the quiet guy
to speak up. Okay. And for the

684
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,320
first time they were being heard
in that sense, so there was some

685
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,170
positives there. And I think the
other one that was very

686
00:39:55,170 --> 00:39:59,190
interesting was writing like an
Amazonian. I don't know if

687
00:39:59,190 --> 00:40:00,660
you've seen it like I have,

688
00:40:00,750 --> 00:40:02,100
Jason Baum: yes, I have seen
that.

689
00:40:02,430 --> 00:40:06,210
Brendan O'Reilly: So people
were, you know, put on training

690
00:40:06,210 --> 00:40:09,960
courses in one instance, to take
the waffles and put the fact in.

691
00:40:10,020 --> 00:40:10,410
So I

692
00:40:10,410 --> 00:40:16,020
Jason Baum: love that. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, my gosh, Brandon, we

693
00:40:16,020 --> 00:40:20,070
could talk about this topic, I
think for another two hours

694
00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:25,530
easily. There's a lot to say
here. I hope you'll come back. I

695
00:40:25,530 --> 00:40:28,680
think we should review this.
Again, I think this is a topic

696
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:31,440
that's going to continue to
evolve. Certainly, I mean, it

697
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,580
always, it always has, it always
will. The more work environments

698
00:40:35,580 --> 00:40:40,590
we have, the more and more roles
that pop up and are created, the

699
00:40:40,620 --> 00:40:45,240
the more I think will feed, feed
the silos but then also break

700
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:47,910
them down. So I think there's a
lot we can we can kind of talk

701
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:52,050
about. So I hope someday you
will come back and continue to

702
00:40:52,050 --> 00:40:52,860
share with us,

703
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:54,750
Brendan O'Reilly: that would be
a pleasure. This is the most fun

704
00:40:54,750 --> 00:40:56,340
I've had in the podcast in a
long time.

705
00:40:56,490 --> 00:41:00,510
Jason Baum: Awesome. Okay, so I
did warn you about this.

706
00:41:00,510 --> 00:41:03,630
Sometimes I warn our guests,
sometimes I don't, that we're

707
00:41:03,630 --> 00:41:07,950
going to ask a very personal
question. So I hope you've

708
00:41:07,950 --> 00:41:13,710
thought about it. Today, our
closing question is going to be

709
00:41:14,460 --> 00:41:18,120
if you could be remembered for
one thing, what would that be?

710
00:41:19,980 --> 00:41:21,000
Brendan O'Reilly: That I died
trying?

711
00:41:21,780 --> 00:41:22,710
Jason Baum: I love that.

712
00:41:23,970 --> 00:41:26,310
Brendan O'Reilly: I think I
think continuous improvement and

713
00:41:26,310 --> 00:41:31,500
continuous learning are, you
know, they're just part of who

714
00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:35,430
we are. And as long as you have
those things and you die trying

715
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:39,180
then yeah, you're I'll go
happily to my grave that's on

716
00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:40,770
the gravestone that'll be on
behalf of

717
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:46,590
Jason Baum: die trying. I think
that is fantastic. I think that

718
00:41:46,590 --> 00:41:49,770
would be I think anyone just
could just hope for that. Right.

719
00:41:50,310 --> 00:41:52,800
That's great. Thank you so much,
Brendan. It was an absolute

720
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,240
pleasure having you on the
podcast

721
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:55,710
Brendan O'Reilly: today.
Likewise,

722
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,350
Jason Baum: take care, Jason.
And thank you for listening to

723
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:01,710
this episode of the humans of
DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end

724
00:42:01,710 --> 00:42:04,680
this episode the same way I
always do encouraging you to

725
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,980
become a member of DevOps
Institute to get access to even

726
00:42:07,980 --> 00:42:11,820
more great resources just like
this one. Until next time, stay

727
00:42:11,820 --> 00:42:15,780
safe, stay healthy, and most of
all, stay human, live long and

728
00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:16,290
prosper.

729
00:42:18,420 --> 00:42:20,520
Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the humans of

730
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,060
DevOps podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

731
00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:27,390
access to even more great
resources like this. Until next

732
00:42:27,390 --> 00:42:30,840
time, remember, you are part of
something bigger than yourself.

733
00:42:31,170 --> 00:42:31,920
You belong