Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework.
Alfredo Deza: People love that and they will just open the
doors. I know I would like if someone knocks on my eyelids.
excitedly, will these things work? Can I do more? Or System
Administrator like, it doesn't matter. It's like, Dude, you're
hired, like, what? Can I send you right away?
Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member
experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps
podcast. Welcome back. Hope you had another great week. I'm
super excited this while I'm excited every week I you know, I
say that every week. But I am super excited this week,
especially because if you are a frequent listener to this
podcast, you know, I'm a pretty avid sports fan. And I usually
go on some sort of sports rant that I eventually have to tie
back into the program and then apologize to our producer. But
today, I finally finally get to chat about sports in an official
capacity. So the Olympics are here again. I'm sure you know
that already. So we thought it would be interesting to bring on
a former Olympian. Plus, this Olympian happens to be a cloud
advocate at Microsoft. So my guest today is Alfredo de Souza.
He's a passionate software engineer, avid open source
developer, author, photographer and a former Olympic athlete, he
has given several lectures across the world about open
source software, personal development and professional
sports. He's rebuilt company infrastructure, design, shared
storage and replace complex build systems, always in search
of efficient and resilient environments. With a strong
belief in testing and documentation, he continues to
drive robust development practices, wherever he is. So
Alfredo, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and
agreeing to talk sports with me. And a little bit about DevOps
and, and tech.
Alfredo Deza: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jason,
for having me. Super happy to be here and talk about everything.
Yeah, sure. Including sports.
Jason Baum: Awesome. Well, so you're ready to get human? Yeah.
Alright, let's do it. So tell us first, you know, I guess we
should start we teased. You know, you're, you're an Olympic
athlete. And so, tell us a little bit what what was your
sport? What was that experience? Like? And you know, what country
did you represent?
Alfredo Deza: Yeah. So I was born in Peru. And I lived there
until I was 26. Almost 26. Yeah, no, 26. And, you know, you
you're reminded me about this one time where there was a
reporter and says, like, oh, so how? So? How many months do you
had to drain for the Olympics? Now that you asked that
question, but this person asked me that it's like, well, like
this, this, this reporter like, that's such a weird thing. So I
said, like, well, well, I did that for like, 15 years. So it's
like I've been in training for for a few months does. You know,
you don't you don't get to? I mean, I don't know if anyone has
gone to Olympic Games just by working out like for a few
months.
Jason Baum: So I mean, if I trained for six months, I can't
to go to the Olympics.
Alfredo Deza: I don't I don't I don't think so that I mean, hats
off to you. If you managed to accomplish that. That's That's
intense, but I don't think it works that way. There's a lot of
competition.
Jason Baum: I don't know. I watched the show cheer and my
back hurts. So I don't know if I'm gonna be good for that. But
Alfredo Deza: yeah, no, it's it does take it does take a lot of
effort didn't need to me to me years. It took me a a good chunk
of my of my life for a while and I did the high jump. I jumped to
27 to two meters and 27 centimeters and that's I think
that's around seven feet, four inches ish. Something, something
around around that. Yeah. And I did it for years. My My dad also
went to the big games. He went to Mexico City. I think that was
1968. And, yeah, I really liked sports or since I was a kid, and
when I was around 11 years old, I told my dad that I really
wanted to like get serious into train and working out. Because
there's there's different ways to train, prepare yourself and
workout. You could you could say Well, you know, I'm a, I don't
know, like I like tennis or I do soccer or do swimming. It's
like, oh, how many times a week or two twice a week or three
times a week. And but when you're really into it, it just
never ends. He never stops in multiple, multiple times a day.
And when I was in school, I would have to just stop for
school. But otherwise, when I got out of high school, he was
between between 12 times a week, all the way to like close to 18
times a week of workouts is some most days, twice a day in the
morning, in the afternoon, how
Jason Baum: long were the workouts?
Alfredo Deza: They were they were usually close to two hours,
depending on the type of workout on the offseason it was the word
more lengthy and, and when the competition's were close by,
they were shorter. But I would say on the shorter end, maybe
like an hour and 20 minutes and up to two hours.
Jason Baum: I mean, it's yeah, it's a full time job of working
out
Alfredo Deza: it is it is and it doesn't end with when the
workout ends, because then the workout ends and then you have
to think about recovery. So you have to I would carry my ice
packs everywhere in my bandages. So just, you know, put the ice
packs in my legs while I was driving back home and, and then
taking a nap. And, and I mean, you might think like, Oh, this
guy's taking a nap and and then I would go to the sauna and do
some massage sessions and sessions. And some good says
like, oh, this this is that's fantastic. That's great. No, no,
it's not great, because you're a very tired all day long every
day. And you really want to just take a break, and you just can't
you can't you have to keep going.
Jason Baum: And if you don't do that recovery, you don't move
the next day. So yeah, yeah. Did you ever do those like
hyperbaric chambers? Like I did,
Alfredo Deza: I actually did. But you know what now thinking
about them. They really scare me, you know, kind of like when
you think about a certain situations like oh, that's, you
kind of get into that mentally into that situation and just
gets really scary. That's how I feel about those doing that. But
I don't, I don't know, like it was a thing back in. I mean, but
the Bravo is still a thing, but I did them in the early 2000s.
And there were just a couple of places that they would do that
improve. And I did them, but I can really tell if he did
anything. Maybe they were measuring why there was not a
way of accurately measuring the impact.
Jason Baum: Yeah, I feel like that copying like there's all
different methods of recovery, and then it seems to change. But
like, I mean, that's the amount of work that you have to put in
to be an Olympic Olympic athlete alone, let alone an Olympic
athlete, which is like taking it the next degree up, obviously,
it's I mean, it's intense. So I So how far did you how did you
do the in the Olympics?
Alfredo Deza: Well, I the Olympics was pretty rough for
me. I didn't do well at all. You know, I think it's it's
interesting outside of Peru, I don't live in Peru. I haven't
been living in Peru for a past 15 years. I live in the US now.
Outside of Peru, I would say it's interesting how having been
to Olympic Games is is seen as a is a is a huge accomplishment
and something worth celebrating. I wouldn't say it's so much
improved. The reaction is like, you know, probably like, not
not, you know, maybe it's like God, that's great. You went you
went to the Biggums not not not something worth celebrating that
much, I would say. But in Peru when I was 18 years old, and I
think this is kind of like what I was more known or recognized
back in baru in 1998. I was 18 years old, and he was the World
Junior Championships for track and field and I want I became
the first ever World Champion in track and field for brew. And
that that was a big deal that that was a very big deal. And
that was in the newspapers and TV and like 100 interviews all
the time. And that was that was huge. And you know, you
mentioned you mentioned these things, but I think that the the
Olympic Games, you know, trying to like I try to keep up that
momentum. And that was in 1988, the Olympic games that I went to
was in 2004. So it took me a while to get there. And to
qualify, you have to jump a certain height. And it was it
was very hard. The, I would say the usual mentality of an
athlete, or a high high performance athlete is to,
you're going there and you're not just having a, a vacation
time or having a blast. I mean, yeah, sure. It's wonderful, and
you're great environment and full of athletes, and
everybody's, you know, there to compete is a special moment, but
not doing well was devastating to me. I was, I was sponsored, I
had, like I was, I guess you could consider me a professional
athlete. And I was, I was a professional athlete, they had a
sponsor, and these sponsor decided to drop me while I was
at the Olympic Games, not because of my performance, but
because they were going bankrupt, and they were not
doing well. And so the thing is that, that kind of like mark my,
my, the end of almost like, the end of my career, at least
mentally, I just could not stand this. I'm like, not doing well,
this is horrible. I can't keep doing this. I'm 20, almost 26
years old. And this is very hard. So I remember, after,
after competing and doing horrendous of the Olympic games,
but horrendous by my standards, you know, I'm just gonna ask you
are you are the Olympic Games. Yes. You know, you're working
yourself to like, for 15 years to get to some plays, you're
expecting to do well, but it's really hard. It is really,
really hard. You're trying to accomplish the best error
performance in your life. You're not going to nail it. It's
really difficult. Like when you see an athlete just That's why
like, usually we're records don't necessarily happen at the
Olympic Games. Sometimes they do. But not all the time. And
usually records of the Olympic Games are not, you know, are
lesser than the real world records. Because you know, where
records are, like, easier to, to kind of like go um, I think I
can nail it between these two or three events. Within these two
or three weeks. Maybe I can I can hit it there and then you do
and then that's great. But then it begins it's like, have seen
for years and you have this one time. And that's it. Oh, yeah.
Jason Baum: It's athletes are programmed the same. I feel like
you're there to win. Like no one gets into athlete athletics to
not win. So totally get how anything less than that is
deemed to yourself as a failure. But in perspective, how many
people were competing in high jump at that Olympic?
Alfredo Deza: I think we were this is you're asking all the
right questions. I think they were 15 I think so. I thought I
was probably like 13 or 12 or something like that
Jason Baum: for 12 or 13. But But out of the entire world.
Yes. All the athlete so that's that's a pretty big
accomplishment. So yeah, that's why it's when you're in it I
totally get it but at the same time in Lean Leicester the top
three in the world you're not get you're coming home a failure
right in your and honestly, I bet for some for some athletes.
It must be an absolute devastate must be devastating. Can I even
get to silver or gold?
Alfredo Deza: Yeah, um, you know, I felt like I failed my
country. I felt like my country doesn't owe me anything. I don't
know anything to to anyone. Like, isn't it wasn't like they
gave me like, you know, like, a huge house and five cars to just
I mean, it wasn't like that, you know, but I yeah, it would it
would have I felt like I failed. My country I felt like to me was
a wonderful way to to give happiness and hope and just a
general good feeling to people specifically in Peru I think
Peru as it happens with much of Latin America is a is a country
that continues to fight social and political issues and a lot
of corruption. And in I think that when whenever there's a
sports event and in a fellow country, man is they're doing
great. This is just fantastic, you know, to give them to give
provide happiness to us. Ever seen in such a nice impure way,
I would say,
Jason Baum: you know, it's also interesting and I feel like we
could this is kind of bringing it back to, to tech to work to,
you know, to our to our work. Life is the amount of effort and
time and everything that you put into your sport. Whether it be
your sport, your craft your job, even though you might be putting
in a ton of effort, a ton of work, sometimes the results
aren't there. And it's not anything that you didn't do. I
mean, you were training for 40 Whatever hours a week, you're
doing all the recut, you're going to do everything right,
you're eating right, and you spent 16 years 50 Whatever it
was, right. 1516 You're doing it? Yeah, yeah. So and I mean,
gosh, man, you could think about anything that you do, and you're
not always going to win. And that is tough for competitive.
I'm a competitive person. I played sports, you know, I
totally have that mindset. And so, you know, but everybody
fails. And that's, and that's at some point. And then you have
your wins. And you definitely, and the losses mean more,
because the losses you feel because you still put in the
effort. And for some reason, when you don't have that outcome
that you desired. God, that ones things, because it's like, well,
I still did it all. It feels like yeah, not a waste. It
shouldn't feel that way. But in the moment, it it hurts.
Alfredo Deza: Yeah, I would say professionally, in, in the
corporate environment or a regular work your regular nine
to five, I would say to me feels a little bit different. The
other day, I heard this thing that I really liked. That is
there's there's there's no failure, we're not failing,
we're either learning, or we're winning. What are we going to do
today? Well, all up, I learned like, yes. You know, like in it,
I think it's hard to apply that to professional sports like or
if you're doing something like track and field or swimming or
whatever it is because you know, like, yeah, you you fail, like
sure you could you could try but it's just, it's really hard.
What I would do when I was an athlete, he would be like, Okay,
next season, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna fix here, when a train
better and more in depth, there's so much that you can do,
you know, like, not in not everybody can run under 10
seconds in the in the 100 meter dash. I mean, there's just like,
it might not be physically possible for you to accomplish
that. So, so let's, let's set some reality here. And, but if
we're talking about, you know, performing well at work, and
being a good co worker, you know, I think I don't want to
say it's easier. But I think there's more room here for for
doing well and not necessarily have have devastating failures.
So I think that freeze of, you know, there's, there's, we're
not failing, we are either learning or winning, I think
it's just great. Because every time that I've messed up at
work, and I've messed up a bunch of times, it's been like, a
learning moment. Not. I know, I know, that stinks. And I know
I'm going to do better. And I try to, I tried to put all those
stories in every book that I've written. Some people don't like
the stories like, all right, why are you talking about a story
that happened? Like nobody cares about? Like, there was a
comment, someone made these comments like, nobody cares
about your horrible boss, than years ago, Alfredo, like, tell
us tell us more about logging systems and get to the point.
But you know, to me, it's like, Hey, you want to talk to me? You
want me to tell you something useful? I'm going to do that.
But I'm going to tell you a story. I'm not I mean, if you
want to read something super technical, in not having any
context about it, go read a manual. She said I'm not gonna
it doesn't matter. You'll
Jason Baum: see the PowerPoint presentation. Yes, yes.
Alfredo Deza: Go into the terminal, run the man the man
page command, and go read a manual. There's no story there.
It's just straight to the facts. But that's not you know, what I
try to do is, let me tell you a story. Why I think logging is is
a good idea. Because let me show you what happened when there was
no login or login was impossible. And we tried to
solve the problem. And in again, learning moment. Yeah,
everything goes. Anybody could
Jason Baum: read a recipe not everyone could be a chef. Yeah.
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after trial activation. So that's a great transition than,
you know, the the the yearning to learn that you have. How does
one go from being a lifelong professional athlete? That is
your focus? It has to be I would I mean all the time to becoming
a software engineer and an author.
Alfredo Deza: Yeah, you know, it wasn't an easy transition, it
was very hard. First off, like I decided to leave my country. And
both my parents said, this is a horrible idea. You're the
Jason Baum: motivation? Yeah. encouragement.
Alfredo Deza: I mean, they were right. They were right, because
I didn't go to college. I mean, I went to college for like, a
few months. And then I said, like, I can't I can't do these
theses. Not really, for me, I wasn't finding myself interested
in the stuff that was going on at college. So I just dropped
out after a few months. Now consider that like, I didn't go
to college, or I guess technically a dropout. So didn't
go to college didn't had any other formula education into any
career skill whatsoever. No experience working at like I
didn't have, I didn't perform any work stuff. So it was mostly
I'm an athlete. And I do that's what I do for a living. And in
no experience doing anything other than professional sports.
So when I say well, I'm moving to the US, it was more of like,
whoa, wait a second, you're going to in what are you going
to do in like, in the US like that sounds you're going to lose
your stability, at least here in Peru, doors may open up for you.
Because people know you people have heard your name, and they
know who you are. And, you know, worst comes to worst. Like they
at least know your name. And you're going to go to us where
nobody knows you. But to me, it felt sort of liberating, because
I could reinvent myself, I could be someone completely different
than for the longest time. I wouldn't, I wouldn't put any of
my of my track and field accomplishments anywhere in, in
in any of my profiles. I wouldn't. It would drive my that
crazy. He would be like very upset that I wouldn't do that.
Because it's like, are you That's insane. Like you're,
it's, it's it you're you're doing a disservice to yourself.
This is not very good, good strategy for you, especially
because you're starting from scratch. And I agree with that.
But I wouldn't feel comfortable because it even today, to me
feels kind of like I don't want to be perceived as someone that
is a show off. You know, like in, in thank you for asking me
these questions. Because I think if anyone listening wants to
rescue something that is very good, very positive, very
useful. From this interview. It's that it's not necessarily
Olympics. It's not necessarily that I was the first ever World
Champion for Peru. But I did this transition, which was
extremely hard. And I came to the US. I had just recently
married, again, talk about things that my parents thought
were not excellent ideas, because, you know, how are you
going to support your new family, you know, you don't
leave you're not working. It's like, and so we came to the US.
And he was he was extremely hard. I started being a personal
trainer in kind of like a volunteer coach, trying to teach
people to hijab and trying to teach people how to work
properly. I was interested in technology, but I didn't exactly
knew what to do where to go. At that time, YouTube, perhaps the
annexes there if it existed, like it wasn't as useful as it
is today. So I would go into a local bookstore and read
technology books since I call. And so I started writing, I
wanted to, to have a blog, and I learned about Linux, getting
started getting really interested into Linux. And so I
wanted to learn more and more and more about that, and started
becoming sort of proficient in doing things in Linux, and fine,
uh, found myself having the opportunity to work for a
company that needed a system administrator, but just for a
few hours. And so that that meant that Oh, wow, like this is
this is, this is great, because I'm going to be able to just
prove myself that I can bake and learning, I was just, I was just
so hungry, so hungry, to, to prove myself to do these things,
to learn to keep doing things. And it was like, it depends.
Sometimes, you know, things are hard. Work. Work is hard. But
definitely in those early years, I was super motivated, super
motivated. And in very eager to learn in there were a few people
that noticed, and where they cause tremendous impact in my
career. And I owe them a lot.
Jason Baum: Who are those people? These?
Alfredo Deza: One, one of these guys. He's an Argentinean. He
he's a he's a wonderful human being who he was. He was the
Chief Technologist for, for these large product that they
were, they were green, a virtual world. He's a Java specialist.
He's working from Argentina in 2000. Like, he's a remote person
working working for an office here in Atlanta, and he's in
Argentina. And he, and he says, Hey, Alfredo, like, you know,
I've tried, like, we're doing these monitoring of the whole
system. It's three databases here, four web servers over
there. And, and then we have an application servers, I think
they were like an hour two, or three. So it was like a very
large virtual world thing in Java. And they wanted some
scripting to be done to kind of like, put everything in
maintenance mode. And there was a specific order that you need
to shut down the application. And so the web servers would
change the HTML and shows like a were, you know, kind of like an
a message saying, Hey, we're doing some maintenance work, and
in the databases we need to follow then. And so it's a
special order, you need to do the thing. And, and he wanted me
to script that. And I've never in my life program before. And
so he's like, Oh, you're gonna do it, you're, you know, it's
fine. And he's named me some. Carlos Cole. And in Carlos said,
you're going to lease and say, Hey, Carlos, but like, I don't,
I don't know how to burn like, no problem. I'm very busy. But
every day, 15 minutes, I'll give you 15 minutes early in the
morning, you come in early? And I'll answer any questions. I'll
tell you what to read and what to look for. And then we'll
rinse and repeat every day. And, and then we'll you'll make some
progress, and we'll get these done. And I said, okay, okay.
All right, let's do this. And I started doing that. And I feel
like horrible. He's kind of like, you know, I don't want to
sound like, you know, I know, I know, languages. I know, Spanish
is my Spanish and Portuguese kind of similar, but not Russian
or not Chinese. So learning how to program is kind of like that,
like, if, if I know Spanish, it doesn't necessarily mean I know
how to, you know, speak Chinese or read Chinese it will be and
so it's like, someone dropped me in Beijing. And I have to like,
figure it out how to survive. And I was like, I don't know
anything. This is This is insane. I started having
nightmares. I wasn't sleeping because I felt like a lot of
responsibility to, like, get this thing going. And one day I
said, Okay, that's it. I'm going to tell these guys tell my wife,
I'm going to tell this guy I can't I can't do it anymore. I
quit like he has to find someone else. And he said, Okay, you
know, like I went there I talked to him was like, Yes, I'll
follow what's going on. Like that's it no more I can program
I don't know how to lead you're, you're asking me to do all these
things. He seems very important. And I'm not making any progress.
So I quit. And he said we what is it that you're not
understanding? Well, I don't know what what this thing is. I
don't know what that thing is. But that thing does. I'm very
confused as I got one second. So that thing that you don't
understand you need to read this thing. And this sort of thing
works like nice, okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. Do you get enough?
Yes. Okay. See you tomorrow. I keep you going. Let me quit. He
didn't let me quit. He saw I was like these guys, you seriously.
And and we managed to do it. Like I completed the whole thing
and I learned how to program in and you know, just fantastic. I
mean, just super grateful I think in the Python for DevOps
book that I wrote for Riley, I think it was 2019 I think we
finished that. I actually just thank him because I mean he was
he was essential for me great critical in my career to get me
going.
Jason Baum: That's awesome. Wow, we don't You don't everyday have
someone who's refusing refuses to quit on you, even when you're
ready to quit yourself. Yeah, but refuses to quit on you.
That's, that's pretty amazing probably sawn in you what you
just described that you wish you could have in someone? Oh, yeah,
you probably tick those boxes, I'm assuming for him. All right.
Well, I mean, this has been absolutely amazing getting to
meet you talk about your, your, your career, your life, I mean,
you have outside of the box, I would say is the best way to
describe your path that you went on, definitely not the standard.
But my gosh, you must have learned so much that we haven't
even touched on, I think we scratched the surface. So I
think people will have to get your books, you know, the
Alfredo Deza: books people thinks like, writing books is
very good. Like, yeah, it's a lot of work. Like, if you ever
run a marathon is like running a marathon, and he never ends. And
you you're like, oh, man, like, this is really rough. But, you
know, I'm just genuinely happy to be here. And to kind of,
like, convey the message of, you know, working hard and doing a
lot of effort in any that ends up, you know, someone saying,
Well, let me just search these dude around. Maybe he's writing
interesting books about, you know, DevOps or Python, or, you
know, the last book was machine learning operations, which is
kind of like related to DevOps for machine learning. I mean,
that's great. But, you know, if they don't, that's, that's also
good. Like, I'm here to just share the stories and in all
those books full of stories, so if you like the stories here,
then go go find the books, I was gonna
Jason Baum: say, I want to hear more, I want to hear more
stories, you're definitely gonna have to come back. But I do have
a final question for you. Yes, we always ask our guests one
final question. We usually like them to dig deep a little think
think, okay, it's used somewhat personal. But this one's This
one's I think, relevant. So, if DevOps was an Olympic event,
which sport or event would it be?
Alfredo Deza: You know, what, I think more than a sport, I would
say, being a coach, I think that's what I would say not not
necessarily like a specific event, a coach has to have like,
lots of experience has to know like, what to apply to their, to
their athletes, where to where do they excel, what is the right
environment, and continuously plan, measure and operate on on
these these bigger plan of doing things and events and
competitions in try to keep keep improving things? So I would say
a coach sounds more more like a DevOps DevOps engineer.
Jason Baum: I think that's a great answer. I think that's
wonderful. All right. Well, I mean, I'm afraid I can't thank
you enough for coming on and sharing some of those stories,
you're gonna have to come back because I have a ton more. So
maybe when it's when it's the Summer Olympics, he'll come back
and talk to us again and share even more.
Alfredo Deza: Sure, that sounds great. Jason, I appreciate a ton
being here anytime I can come back anytime happy to keep
talking more about these things and and again, just emphasizing
it's not about for me about you know having done well in sports,
but you know, the message is like hey, just just keep
grinding keep doing excellent work be useful, be motivated,
show genuine enthusiasm about things and I think specially
here in the US I think people love that and they will just
open the doors. I know I would like if someone knocks on
violins like excited the will these things work and I do more
Python or system administrators like it doesn't matter. Like
dude, you're hired like what? Just Can I sign you right away?
And before you know before before before we go like let me
tell you these tiny, tiny short story sure I was helping out.
They told us okay, you need to get some some time aside to help
these person. She's in Latin America, she's won some some
someone to review her resume in Spanish. Can you help her out?
And so I said, Okay, that's fine. an inker resume. She said,
I'm very motivated and I want to learn new things and, and I
asked him like, what can you can you explain to me a little bit
more what you're doing? Are you going to college? Yes, I'm
studying In 90 minutes, okay, and what else? How's your
English? Oh, my English is I'm going twice a week to an English
Institute and learning English. Okay, that's great. And how's
your programming? Oh, well, I'm, I'm thinking twice a week
classes to do learn Python. Okay, so you're going to college
as well. Yeah. And these resumes for is for what what are you
trying to do? Well, I'm doing, I'm doing part time, part time
working at this company that is doing automation on email
systems. Is is a go whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on one second. So
you're going to college, you're learning English, you're
learning how to code in, in, in Python. And you're working part
time in a company. I mean, that that secret don't say that you
that you're trying to, you know, like to learn new things. Just
you have to blow it out of the water and say, Hey, look at all
of these things that I'm doing. And I'm in another country where
things are already difficult. They look what I'm already
trying to do. It's like PCC insane. I would hire you
yesterday. If it was up to me, this is credible. And I think
that's the type of people that we need. And if you're one of
those, well, that's great. I'm pretty sure things are just
going to work very well for you. That's
Jason Baum: awesome. That's awesome. We all need our own
personal hype person behind us. I think sometimes, yeah,
absolutely. Our own flavor for life. Awesome. Thanks so much
Alfredo. I really appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this
episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this
episode the same way I always do encouraging you to become a
member of DevOps Institute to get access to even more great
resources just like this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay
healthy, and most of all, stay human, live long and prosper.
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