1 00:00:02,939 --> 00:00:06,449 You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a podcast 2 00:00:06,449 --> 00:00:09,449 focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,479 --> 00:00:13,829 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework. 4 00:00:18,090 --> 00:00:20,520 And I think that's kind of what DevOps is all about, right, like 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,130 breaking down the barriers, making people self sufficient. 6 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:28,050 Really just like accelerating the it, process. 7 00:00:34,230 --> 00:00:37,980 Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member experience at 8 00:00:37,980 --> 00:00:42,270 DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps podcast. 9 00:00:42,750 --> 00:00:46,350 Welcome back. Hope you had a great couple weeks. There we are 10 00:00:46,350 --> 00:00:51,900 finally back and live. And excited to be here with you 11 00:00:51,900 --> 00:00:56,310 today. So, on the show today, we will be talking about the 12 00:00:56,310 --> 00:01:00,480 concept of cursive knowledge. This is a new topic to me. So 13 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,360 I'm excited to kind of get into it might be new to you. Maybe 14 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,820 you haven't heard the term cursive knowledge before, but I 15 00:01:05,820 --> 00:01:09,270 think the concept once we get into it, you might be familiar 16 00:01:09,270 --> 00:01:13,890 with. So the concept of curse of knowledge is which one 17 00:01:14,340 --> 00:01:17,700 unknowingly assumes that others have the same insight or 18 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:21,630 background to understand a concept. It's the opposite of 19 00:01:21,630 --> 00:01:24,900 the Buddhist concept of beginner's mind. But we'll get 20 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:29,430 more into that later. And with me to talk about cursive 21 00:01:29,430 --> 00:01:33,210 knowledge is a panel we're doing a panel today. This is always 22 00:01:33,210 --> 00:01:38,520 exciting when we have more than one guest. Our Erica Yano and 23 00:01:38,550 --> 00:01:43,350 Nick are Safi. Eric is a software engineer at tool chain 24 00:01:43,350 --> 00:01:48,000 labs. And Eric is focused on empowering developers to build 25 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,980 at scale through the open source pants build project. Eric is a 26 00:01:52,980 --> 00:01:58,560 volunteer crisis counselor for LGBTQ youth, and aspiring pig 27 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,940 parent, which I will also be definitely coming back to later 28 00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:05,760 in the program. Erica, welcome. 29 00:02:06,420 --> 00:02:10,830 Thank you. It's yeah, great to be here. I really appreciate the 30 00:02:10,830 --> 00:02:14,280 focus of the podcasts for a brief stint. I was a middle 31 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,450 school computer science teacher. And one of the big perceptions 32 00:02:18,450 --> 00:02:22,110 that my students had was that tech and software engineering is 33 00:02:22,110 --> 00:02:25,440 something that you're social and like humans, you shouldn't do 34 00:02:25,710 --> 00:02:29,580 stereotype of the hackers in their garage. And that was one 35 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:32,040 of the biggest things I tried dispelling with my students is 36 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,920 no actually modern technology is something that's extremely 37 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:37,950 collaborative. You're ultimately building for humans and with 38 00:02:37,950 --> 00:02:40,050 other humans. So excited to be here today. 39 00:02:40,379 --> 00:02:44,159 Absolutely. appreciate you saying that. And we have 100% 40 00:02:44,159 --> 00:02:48,119 touched on that that very topic. In fact, you could go back and 41 00:02:48,119 --> 00:02:53,069 listen to the episode on VR where we went into the metaverse 42 00:02:53,099 --> 00:02:57,929 and its powers because it is such a collaborative environment 43 00:02:57,929 --> 00:03:02,519 that we like to have right in the world of tech. So And also 44 00:03:02,519 --> 00:03:07,979 joining me is Nick wasafi. And Nick is a software engineer at 45 00:03:07,979 --> 00:03:12,449 rippling with a strong passion for DevOps and scaling processes 46 00:03:12,449 --> 00:03:15,749 with automation. On the side, you'll also find Nick exploring 47 00:03:15,749 --> 00:03:19,529 the great outdoors with his dog or tinkering with DIY projects. 48 00:03:19,559 --> 00:03:23,549 I also think, Nick, you should probably build Eric's pig, a pig 49 00:03:23,549 --> 00:03:23,849 pen. 50 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:25,950 Oh, we'll definitely get to that. 51 00:03:27,150 --> 00:03:28,890 Well, welcome here. Yeah, welcome 52 00:03:28,890 --> 00:03:29,520 to the show. 53 00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:34,770 Alright, so are we ready to get human and start this panel? 54 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:42,090 Let's do it. Awesome. Okay, so I did my little intro on curse of 55 00:03:42,570 --> 00:03:47,550 knowledge. Why don't each of you take your own crack at defining 56 00:03:47,580 --> 00:03:50,670 just what curse of knowledge is? Nick, let's start with you. 57 00:03:51,750 --> 00:03:56,880 Yeah, um, so I think for cursory knowledge, when you're building 58 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,800 something, you don't always put yourself in the shoes of the end 59 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,730 user, right? It takes so long to get to the point to have a 60 00:04:05,730 --> 00:04:10,440 stable product, and you know the ins and outs of it. But if you 61 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,990 don't put yourself in the shoes of the person who's going to be 62 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:16,050 using it, let's say for that first hour of downloading the 63 00:04:16,050 --> 00:04:20,310 product and trying to get up and running. That's really the most 64 00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:26,910 critical point to have adoption, right? That person needs to get 65 00:04:26,910 --> 00:04:30,030 something from a proof just an idea to a proof of concept and 66 00:04:30,030 --> 00:04:33,750 show that it can do what it's supposed to do. If you don't 67 00:04:33,750 --> 00:04:37,260 design your tool in a way, where you're thinking like how can 68 00:04:37,260 --> 00:04:40,770 somebody come from nothing to something, then that person 69 00:04:40,770 --> 00:04:44,430 could ultimately fail, right? So it's really important to 70 00:04:44,430 --> 00:04:47,580 recognize that you have this curse, so you can adjust and you 71 00:04:47,580 --> 00:04:51,390 can build a product that anybody can approach and understand and 72 00:04:51,390 --> 00:04:54,810 have one of the best first hour experiences of their lives and 73 00:04:54,810 --> 00:04:56,790 then be able to promote it to everybody. 74 00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:00,000 I already have a follow up question but Erica will really 75 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,310 Want to hear your definition as well? 76 00:05:02,940 --> 00:05:06,240 Yes, I first heard about the idea of curse of knowledge in 77 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,350 the book Made to Stick, why some ideas survive, and others die, 78 00:05:10,470 --> 00:05:14,280 which is an awesome book highly recommend. And it's something I 79 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:17,640 think a lot about as an open source maintainer that view it, 80 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:20,550 essentially, once knowledge is a great thing. But once you have 81 00:05:20,550 --> 00:05:24,930 it, it's really hard to remember what it was like before you knew 82 00:05:24,930 --> 00:05:29,250 that thing. So for example, with DevOps, if you've been listening 83 00:05:29,250 --> 00:05:32,790 to this podcast, you read a lot of books and go to different 84 00:05:32,790 --> 00:05:35,400 meetups, and you know, all these different DevOps best practices, 85 00:05:35,430 --> 00:05:39,450 you're trying to convince your non technical manager about why 86 00:05:39,450 --> 00:05:42,150 your organization should be using some new DevOps, best 87 00:05:42,150 --> 00:05:46,770 practice often feels really obvious and intuitive to you. 88 00:05:47,250 --> 00:05:50,940 And it's hard to remember what it's like for your non technical 89 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:53,550 manager who might not be totally clear what DevOps is, or what 90 00:05:53,550 --> 00:05:57,420 this best practices that it seems obvious, and it's 91 00:05:57,420 --> 00:06:00,510 frustrating, like, Why is this person not getting it, everyone 92 00:06:00,510 --> 00:06:04,620 knows that we need to be doing this. without remembering that 93 00:06:05,070 --> 00:06:08,940 five years ago, 15 years ago, you didn't know what DevOps was. 94 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,580 And it's hard to put yourself back in that perspective. So 95 00:06:14,580 --> 00:06:17,040 since learning acknowledges, I think it's made me a lot better 96 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,370 of an open source maintainer. And it's helped our project out 97 00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:24,630 a lot to constantly remind ourselves that we have this 98 00:06:24,630 --> 00:06:27,510 curse. And we need to be thinking about what it's like to 99 00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:30,060 not have this baseline understanding. 100 00:06:30,630 --> 00:06:33,990 It reminds me of when I was teaching my mother how to text. 101 00:06:35,310 --> 00:06:39,060 You know, it's something I took for granted because I knew how 102 00:06:39,060 --> 00:06:43,230 to do it. And then my mother had no idea now literally, all she 103 00:06:43,230 --> 00:06:47,610 does is text. So yeah, it's that that institutional knowledge, 104 00:06:47,610 --> 00:06:51,450 right, if you pass called the curse, I pass on the curse. 105 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,940 Yeah, well, I think we have all heard us on that curse. 106 00:06:54,780 --> 00:06:57,420 We're talking about like fairly new things here like DevOps and 107 00:06:57,420 --> 00:07:00,600 texting, but curse of knowledge is something that might be a 108 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,680 fairly new name for a concept that's always existed. If anyone 109 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,670 has heard the allegory of the cave by Plato, I think that can 110 00:07:08,670 --> 00:07:11,400 be understood through the perspective of curse of 111 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,670 knowledge that gonna mess us up a little bit. But the allegory 112 00:07:14,670 --> 00:07:17,190 is essentially that a lot of people are in this caves, and 113 00:07:17,190 --> 00:07:21,240 they see these terrifying shadows, and no one wants to 114 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,000 leave, and they're afraid of what will happen if they leave 115 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,570 the cave. And then finally, one person is brave enough to do it, 116 00:07:27,780 --> 00:07:30,690 they go outside and realize that all they are is shadows, and 117 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:33,540 that there's this amazing new world out there. But when they 118 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:36,930 come back to the cave, they have an extremely hard time 119 00:07:36,930 --> 00:07:41,760 explaining this concept and this new insight to everyone. And 120 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,530 they are stuck with this curse. 121 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,170 Yeah, that's interesting, I guess it could be flipped to 122 00:07:46,170 --> 00:07:48,930 right. Because there's a lot of positive when you have that 123 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:52,950 blank slate not Not, not really knowing that institutional 124 00:07:52,950 --> 00:07:57,840 knowledge. And then we, we unload all of the knowledge on 125 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:03,810 you. And, you know, I think of I do this a lot on this podcast. 126 00:08:03,810 --> 00:08:07,800 But I liken everything to being a parent. And you know, my 127 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,930 daughter, and trying to explain concepts to a four year old is 128 00:08:12,930 --> 00:08:16,650 very difficult. Because you might use what you're using 129 00:08:16,650 --> 00:08:19,200 words, they don't even know what that means. Okay, so you're 130 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,360 explaining something, and then you have to explain what that 131 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:26,160 thing is, and so on, and so forth. And then there's also a 132 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,620 beauty of kind of not knowing anything. 133 00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:34,380 And you always see that referred to online on threads, right? 134 00:08:34,410 --> 00:08:38,310 People explain like, I'm five, like, give me the 10,000 foot 135 00:08:38,310 --> 00:08:43,140 overview this so I don't have to think we see that every day in 136 00:08:43,140 --> 00:08:43,650 culture. 137 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:49,529 Absolutely. So So then, this is the next question is that? Is it 138 00:08:49,529 --> 00:08:52,859 a good curse? Or a bad curse? Sounds like Are you a good witch 139 00:08:52,859 --> 00:08:57,959 or a bad witch? Yeah, is it is it good 140 00:08:58,140 --> 00:09:01,290 or bad? So I think their knowledge we work really hard to 141 00:09:01,290 --> 00:09:05,310 get. And we do it for a reason. It's what allows us to do our 142 00:09:05,310 --> 00:09:09,330 jobs effectively. I know, for example, as an open source 143 00:09:09,330 --> 00:09:12,210 maintainer, the knowledge that I've worked hard over the past 144 00:09:12,210 --> 00:09:15,870 few years to understand deeply how the system's architected, 145 00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:20,310 its history and all of the culture behind it has made me a 146 00:09:20,310 --> 00:09:23,790 lot more effective. When I want to make a change, I can go in a 147 00:09:23,790 --> 00:09:26,700 lot quicker than when I first started working on it as an 148 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:31,530 intern three and a half years ago. I also it helps me when 149 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:34,560 others want to make change that I can go mentor them, and help 150 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:38,340 them navigate it at all. So there's definitely we work hard 151 00:09:38,340 --> 00:09:41,100 for that knowledge. There's definitely some upside to it. 152 00:09:41,970 --> 00:09:43,890 But a lot of the downsides like we're talking about, 153 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:47,310 yeah. What about What about you, Nick, what do you think? 154 00:09:47,610 --> 00:09:51,000 Yeah, I agree. And it's funny because Eric and I were talking 155 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,370 about this the other day, and he brought up a concept I wasn't 156 00:09:53,370 --> 00:09:57,570 really familiar with but the bus factor, like at any moment in 157 00:09:57,570 --> 00:09:59,670 time, let's say you're the person who retains this 158 00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:03,210 knowledge What happens if you get hit by a bus? What happens 159 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,930 if something bad happens? Right? Where does that put you in your 160 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,350 your business? Where are they relying on you for certain 161 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:14,640 processes. So I think it's a good thing, when you have the 162 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,540 ability to share knowledge. If everybody can retain and take 163 00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:22,050 responsibility and have that be a shared responsibility, then 164 00:10:22,050 --> 00:10:25,830 it's a good thing. But it turns into a bad thing, when only one 165 00:10:25,830 --> 00:10:29,010 individual maybe retains that knowledge or one specific team. 166 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,830 And then problems arise. And if they're not there to save the 167 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:35,310 day, then it's a full blown fire. Right? And that's nothing. 168 00:10:35,340 --> 00:10:36,960 No organization wants that. 169 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:43,110 Yeah, I guess for me, I always love being the new person. 170 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:45,750 Because it's like, everybody thinks you have a ton of great 171 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:49,050 ideas, because they've all been thinking one that you know, 172 00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:52,680 group think and and you're just set in your ways. And some that 173 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:55,080 no matter how hard you try to not be like you said, you 174 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,170 already have that that knowledge. But the new person 175 00:10:58,170 --> 00:11:01,410 always comes in with like, a breath of fresh air and has all 176 00:11:01,410 --> 00:11:04,410 these great, great concepts. And then you fall into the same 177 00:11:04,410 --> 00:11:07,320 thing in a few months. So you can only be the new person for 178 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:08,790 so long. Yeah, 179 00:11:08,789 --> 00:11:10,379 I think it's good. 180 00:11:11,429 --> 00:11:14,369 I was gonna say I agree. And that's why a lot of Buddhist 181 00:11:14,369 --> 00:11:18,959 circles call beginner's mind of celebrating that when you come 182 00:11:18,959 --> 00:11:22,499 in as a new person, you don't have all these blind spots yet. 183 00:11:22,829 --> 00:11:26,699 And it's something that we should actively try to cultivate 184 00:11:26,699 --> 00:11:28,799 and go back to having that beginner's mind. 185 00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:35,069 So let's bring it back to kind of to it, and leadership. And 186 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:39,179 maybe you could give some examples of cursive knowledge. 187 00:11:39,239 --> 00:11:44,459 And in it specifically, we gave a few that that weren't in it, 188 00:11:44,459 --> 00:11:47,999 and then how does it have and maybe applying to leadership as 189 00:11:47,999 --> 00:11:48,449 well. 190 00:11:49,169 --> 00:11:55,109 So I, one example of curse knowledge that we think a lot 191 00:11:55,109 --> 00:11:59,369 about with the pants project is our documentation and our error 192 00:11:59,369 --> 00:12:03,959 messages of like the what's the daily experience of our users 193 00:12:03,989 --> 00:12:09,419 that we think about power users versus everyday users who power 194 00:12:09,419 --> 00:12:12,629 users are people who might be active on GitHub, maybe they 195 00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:16,199 aren't contributing code, but they are in our slack. And 196 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,049 they're reading all the documentation extensively, 197 00:12:19,349 --> 00:12:22,709 versus a lot of our everyday users are they don't really care 198 00:12:22,769 --> 00:12:25,919 about the pen stool, we assume that they aren't reading the 199 00:12:25,919 --> 00:12:29,189 docs, they might be newer to programming and might not be as 200 00:12:29,189 --> 00:12:36,239 familiar with all the concepts. So we tried to remind ourselves 201 00:12:36,239 --> 00:12:39,659 that we have a curse of knowledge when we're working 202 00:12:39,659 --> 00:12:42,449 with our power users. And when we're doing things like writing 203 00:12:42,449 --> 00:12:46,589 documentation, we have confirmation bias of our power 204 00:12:46,589 --> 00:12:48,989 user saying Doc's are good. For example, we want to hear from 205 00:12:48,989 --> 00:12:53,009 everyday users. So a concrete example, we had it, this was an 206 00:12:53,039 --> 00:12:59,609 error message. For sometimes when you run our tool, Linux 207 00:12:59,609 --> 00:13:04,229 will kill the program because it's using too much memory. And 208 00:13:04,529 --> 00:13:07,979 there's a question of how much detail do we go into on 209 00:13:07,979 --> 00:13:11,879 explaining what this is that if you already are really heavy 210 00:13:11,909 --> 00:13:16,829 into Linux, and tools like this, you'll know right away what this 211 00:13:16,829 --> 00:13:20,519 means. And we can just use a little phrase like, oh, killer, 212 00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:24,029 for example. There's a whole world of engineers out there who 213 00:13:24,029 --> 00:13:26,939 don't and DevOps people out there who don't have any idea 214 00:13:26,939 --> 00:13:32,279 what that is. And we ended up rewriting the error message so 215 00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:37,079 that we strike a balance of introducing what the concept is 216 00:13:37,079 --> 00:13:41,129 assuming you haven't heard what this problem is of memory 217 00:13:41,129 --> 00:13:46,289 management, but pointing you to other resources so that you can, 218 00:13:46,439 --> 00:13:49,199 if you already are an expert, you can leverage the knowledge 219 00:13:49,199 --> 00:13:51,959 you already have. And if you don't know anything about it, 220 00:13:51,989 --> 00:13:55,409 you can go to these resources that we link to and learn more 221 00:13:55,409 --> 00:13:55,919 about it. 222 00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:00,869 Great, and what about you, Nick? Yeah, 223 00:14:00,870 --> 00:14:04,680 I think Eric's example of error messages is super important. 224 00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:07,530 I've even heard people in the industry talk about switching 225 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:10,410 programming languages, like let's say from Python to go, 226 00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:13,290 just because they have better error messages and things are 227 00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:17,160 more clear. And documentation makes sense, right for the 228 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,810 beginner. So I now I'm seeing things like in Python community 229 00:14:21,810 --> 00:14:24,030 happening, newer releases, where they're just improving, 230 00:14:24,090 --> 00:14:27,660 improving error messages, improving stack traces, to make 231 00:14:27,660 --> 00:14:31,380 things easier for that beginner or anybody who's just new coming 232 00:14:31,380 --> 00:14:34,590 in who might not fully understand what's going on. So 233 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:39,000 yeah, I think that's a perfect example, like documentation. Use 234 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,810 Case always explain things or point to resources so people can 235 00:14:42,810 --> 00:14:46,650 figure out what's going on. Not sifting into the internals and 236 00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:49,920 trying to figure out what calls actually made and then all that 237 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,620 time you spend researching that knowledge, like save do click 238 00:14:52,620 --> 00:14:54,990 Save the research, just go here and figure it out that type 239 00:14:54,990 --> 00:14:59,130 of thing. 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You know, where's the start button? 259 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,490 Where How do we learn? How do we go from that to the next step to 260 00:16:23,490 --> 00:16:27,510 the next step to the next step? So how does that you know, 261 00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:31,650 explain the dynamic maybe between open source developers, 262 00:16:32,070 --> 00:16:35,610 their lead sponsors of the software and then with customers 263 00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:37,380 in the developers who use it? 264 00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:42,029 Yeah, I like that, where they you start, I think that's been 265 00:16:42,029 --> 00:16:46,349 the most important thing for our project is inviting people to 266 00:16:46,349 --> 00:16:49,229 actively share their feedback, especially if you are a 267 00:16:49,229 --> 00:16:52,559 beginner. If you go to pantses docs, you'll see that we have on 268 00:16:53,309 --> 00:16:56,459 almost every page and invitation of like, hey, we'd love to hear 269 00:16:56,459 --> 00:16:59,129 your feedback, what is confusing, you can join our 270 00:16:59,129 --> 00:17:04,589 Slack reach on GitHub. And we often we find that newcomers are 271 00:17:04,589 --> 00:17:08,219 often hesitant to share their feedback. They think that 272 00:17:08,429 --> 00:17:10,169 they've heard from a couple of people to say like I haven't 273 00:17:10,199 --> 00:17:13,199 used enough time to actually like want to share my opinion. 274 00:17:13,619 --> 00:17:16,799 And we explicitly name this idea of curse of knowledge and say, 275 00:17:16,799 --> 00:17:20,939 No, we are so grateful for your feedback, because that is 276 00:17:20,939 --> 00:17:25,109 exactly what we want to hear. And we also assume when we have 277 00:17:25,109 --> 00:17:27,929 a user who's sharing feedback and is confused about something, 278 00:17:28,349 --> 00:17:31,409 there's probably like 10 other people, at least out there. It's 279 00:17:31,409 --> 00:17:34,919 like when teachers always say in school, if you have a question, 280 00:17:34,949 --> 00:17:36,779 you should ask it because there's probably five other 281 00:17:36,779 --> 00:17:39,719 people in the classroom who have that same question. We view the 282 00:17:39,719 --> 00:17:41,429 same thing with our open source project. 283 00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:44,220 So glad to use that example. Because that's that's exactly 284 00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:48,540 where my head went. Yeah, I said that. What about for you, Nick? 285 00:17:49,770 --> 00:17:53,820 Yeah, I think the collaboration piece is super important. Like 286 00:17:53,820 --> 00:17:57,720 if you search anything like Python model, repo build system, 287 00:17:57,810 --> 00:18:01,440 like, and then let's seeing that first intro blurb for pants, 288 00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:04,890 that's your gateway, right? That gets you into it. And then once 289 00:18:04,890 --> 00:18:07,740 you have a community and collaboration, that it's very 290 00:18:07,740 --> 00:18:11,370 open and welcoming, you just kind of just get even more 291 00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:14,520 interested and you want to help like these people, because they 292 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,630 really helped you. And it is just a really positive 293 00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:20,580 experience. And I think that's kind of what DevOps is all 294 00:18:20,580 --> 00:18:23,370 about, right, like breaking down the barriers, making people self 295 00:18:23,370 --> 00:18:29,880 sufficient, really just like accelerating the IT process. So 296 00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:33,120 I think what pants does is an example that a lot of open 297 00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:36,330 source communities can follow to have a successful project. 298 00:18:37,980 --> 00:18:41,820 And then so that that knowledge and that kind of that that 299 00:18:41,850 --> 00:18:45,060 onboarding of the new person has that then impact the software 300 00:18:45,060 --> 00:18:46,260 development itself. 301 00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:49,890 There's a lot of the priorities that we do, we try very hard to 302 00:18:49,890 --> 00:18:55,230 be a community driven, or or sorry, community driven project, 303 00:18:55,290 --> 00:18:59,550 that it's open source, so anyone can contribute what they want. 304 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,210 maintainers also do try to listen to what users are asking 305 00:19:03,210 --> 00:19:07,950 for. And so a couple concrete things. One is the 306 00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:11,340 prioritization, that whenever a user has new feature that they 307 00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:14,970 want, we ask them to create it and GitHub and so we can track 308 00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:17,490 it, and then either recruit someone to implement and help 309 00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:23,520 mentor them, or pick out ourselves. Another thing that we 310 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,140 view is when we have this idea of like a Doc's bug, that when 311 00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:33,720 our documentation is confusing, we take that try to take that 312 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,060 seriously. And don't just view that as like, oh, they didn't 313 00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:38,490 understand we instead view that that that's a problem in our 314 00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:42,480 documentation. So we'll open up a ticket or either direct it or 315 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,670 fix it directly of needing to go and rewrite what people found 316 00:19:47,670 --> 00:19:48,270 confusing. 317 00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:53,640 Good first picks documentation is usually a good first pick. 318 00:19:54,930 --> 00:19:58,290 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just reading through the docs and then having 319 00:19:58,290 --> 00:20:02,070 like for pants For example, it's like their docks allow you to 320 00:20:02,070 --> 00:20:05,790 give feedback right there. And I think I've abused that feature a 321 00:20:05,790 --> 00:20:09,180 bunch of times. And I think for other newcomers, it's a safe way 322 00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:12,930 to just get involved. And when they accept your, your change, 323 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,630 it's a really exciting experience. And you just kind of 324 00:20:15,630 --> 00:20:16,380 want to keep doing it. 325 00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:21,420 So I first started using pants as an intern at Foursquare about 326 00:20:21,930 --> 00:20:24,960 three and a half, four years ago, wasn't contributing at all 327 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,840 to it, it was just another tool I had to learn on dozens of 328 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:35,760 other tools. And then I was trying to do a change to migrate 329 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,600 the company to python three, and it ended up being that pants was 330 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,140 a blocker for us. So I opened an issue on like, hey, what would 331 00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:46,650 it take for me to migrate pants that I don't really have much 332 00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:49,350 interest in, but it's gonna unblock me from this project I 333 00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:52,890 really want to do community was really supportive, and fell in 334 00:20:52,890 --> 00:20:55,530 love with the community. And then started contributing and 335 00:20:55,530 --> 00:20:58,890 led that project and then worked on the project for Twitter and 336 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:04,950 now tool chain. So I, I try to think a lot about my experience 337 00:21:04,980 --> 00:21:08,970 when I was an intern, and constantly remind myself of it 338 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:14,100 that to be honest pants, we rewrote pants, in line launch 339 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:18,870 pants to about a year and a half ago, which was a ground up 340 00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:22,530 rewrite. And at the time, when I first started using pants as an 341 00:21:22,530 --> 00:21:26,940 intern, the other interns and I didn't really get what the tool 342 00:21:26,940 --> 00:21:30,510 was for when we thought that it wasn't super intuitive and was 343 00:21:30,540 --> 00:21:32,850 sometimes clunky, even though it's trying really hard to do 344 00:21:32,850 --> 00:21:38,550 good things. And I, that's my personal goal now with pants is 345 00:21:38,550 --> 00:21:42,780 that it is so intuitive for beginners and for summer 346 00:21:42,780 --> 00:21:47,460 interns, that they don't that they know already why it's worth 347 00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:48,000 using. 348 00:21:49,470 --> 00:21:52,740 That's, that's great. So you, you kind of you came in as that 349 00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:56,160 the original concept, right? And you didn't really know that much 350 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,480 about it. Sorry, forgive the Buddhist term. Beginner's Mind, 351 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,940 beginner's mind seeing your mind. And and now you have the 352 00:22:05,940 --> 00:22:07,110 curse of knowledge. 353 00:22:07,469 --> 00:22:11,879 Exactly. Yeah. And I try hard to remember what it was like to go 354 00:22:11,879 --> 00:22:17,549 back. By its I still have blind spots that I have to which we 355 00:22:17,549 --> 00:22:18,479 can get into in a little 356 00:22:18,510 --> 00:22:21,480 bit. So let's get into that now. Yeah, yeah, let's let's get into 357 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,920 those. Now. I think that's a really good segue to to that 358 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,600 next question. So you went from a beginner to now you're, you've 359 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:35,400 got the curse of knowledge. And Eric, why don't we come back to 360 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,390 you? Because, Nick, I don't know if you have I mean, we've all 361 00:22:39,390 --> 00:22:42,540 had similar experience, everyone starts New and then becomes an 362 00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:44,670 expert in whatever and maybe not an expert, maybe that's the 363 00:22:44,670 --> 00:22:47,640 wrong word, but as curse of knowledge, right? So what are 364 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,690 some things you could do to go from having that curse of 365 00:22:51,690 --> 00:22:54,180 knowledge now back to that beginner's mind? 366 00:22:57,180 --> 00:23:01,740 Talk to people, you gotta you got to the moment that anybody 367 00:23:01,740 --> 00:23:05,430 raises an issue, like they're having a problem. And that's the 368 00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:09,540 moment that you should go in and communicate with them understand 369 00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:13,740 the problem they're having, and document it. It really helps 370 00:23:13,770 --> 00:23:16,290 like in the remote world that we're all in. So just get on a 371 00:23:16,290 --> 00:23:19,020 call with somebody, have them share their screen, and then 372 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,310 actually walk through and help them. One practice that we do a 373 00:23:23,310 --> 00:23:27,120 lot at rippling is we have a channel where we try to keep all 374 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:31,080 the context for developer issues. And then there's like a 375 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,020 ticketing system, and we track it. And whenever something new 376 00:23:34,020 --> 00:23:37,980 comes up, we immediately try to document it. And then we have 377 00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:41,400 automation that could come in if a similar question is asked, we 378 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,080 immediately post the documentation. So they know. And 379 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,080 for me, that's a good way. The moment that somebody has an 380 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,000 issue, I get on a call, I actually realized like, oh, 381 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,780 yeah, that's really not supposed to be half a day. Okay, let's 382 00:23:54,780 --> 00:23:57,420 make sure this is a document that so it doesn't happen again. 383 00:23:57,810 --> 00:24:01,500 And then that kind of like brings me back into their shoes. 384 00:24:02,130 --> 00:24:04,530 And then just seeing like, the human aspect of that, like, 385 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,690 they're really trying, they're not just sitting there and like 386 00:24:06,690 --> 00:24:09,030 throwing stuff at the wall, but really trying to figure out 387 00:24:09,030 --> 00:24:13,530 what's going on here. So I think just communication is key to 388 00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:14,610 just talk to people. 389 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:20,279 Yeah, that's great. What and for Eric, now, from your pants 390 00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:23,129 experience, even what were some what are some tools that you 391 00:24:23,129 --> 00:24:23,669 use? 392 00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:28,200 Yeah, so I don't to Nick with talking to people. And I would 393 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,520 add talking to people with diverse experiences, including 394 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,400 people with less experience. One of the things I was really 395 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,070 excited about this past year was to mentor and turn it tool 396 00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:41,880 chain. And I find right now with recruiting that a lot of 397 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,970 companies are primarily targeting senior engineers, 398 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,480 which are important to any organization, but I think that 399 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:54,240 the industry would do well to go out of their way to support and 400 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,830 bring on more junior engineers and more interns and recognize 401 00:24:58,830 --> 00:25:02,790 the asset that the As engineers bring to an organization, and 402 00:25:02,790 --> 00:25:07,350 the perspective that they bring. Another really useful technique 403 00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:13,710 that we've used is, when we are trying to re envision a part of 404 00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:20,370 pants, we often do an exercise where we intentionally disregard 405 00:25:20,550 --> 00:25:25,800 all 10 years of history of the project, all prior art. And we 406 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,520 think if we were to do this from brand new without precedent, 407 00:25:29,820 --> 00:25:33,180 what would be the best design and the most intuitive design? 408 00:25:34,110 --> 00:25:38,280 And once we figure that out, we then invite back in the 409 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,520 precedent and technical architecture and everything and 410 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,760 try to figure out okay, how can we rectify these two, and make 411 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,850 this actually happen. And that's where the knowledge that we do 412 00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:51,090 have is incredibly useful, that we can often figure out based 413 00:25:51,090 --> 00:25:53,820 off of our experience, this is how we can make that vision 414 00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:58,590 happen. To create division, we find it's helpful to consider 415 00:25:58,590 --> 00:26:00,510 what would we do if we did this completely? 416 00:26:01,710 --> 00:26:05,700 Yeah, that one, I really, I really liked that example. I 417 00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:07,890 mean, they're all great examples, but that that one 418 00:26:08,010 --> 00:26:11,370 resonates, because I feel like sometimes we do the, okay, if 419 00:26:11,370 --> 00:26:13,350 we're going to make this decision in a vacuum, what would 420 00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:15,810 it be? What would it look like, right? And we always you hear 421 00:26:15,810 --> 00:26:19,500 the you hear that being thrown around a lot. And that sounds 422 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:22,260 great. But you can't make a decision in a vacuum, you have 423 00:26:22,260 --> 00:26:25,770 all these preconceived notions, you have these rules, you know, 424 00:26:25,770 --> 00:26:30,360 whatever. It may be about why you can or can't do something, 425 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:33,960 but then I think, coming up with it in the vacuum, and then going 426 00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:38,250 back and saying, Okay, if we were to stretch to get to this, 427 00:26:38,250 --> 00:26:42,150 how would that look like? Take some work, right? 428 00:26:42,450 --> 00:26:45,480 Yeah. And I think it's an important nuance that I mean, 429 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,450 we're an open source project organizations depend on in teams 430 00:26:48,450 --> 00:26:51,180 depend on that we do need to care about backwards 431 00:26:51,180 --> 00:26:54,990 compatibility, and offer a good story there. So yeah, it's a 432 00:26:54,990 --> 00:26:58,980 tension between we want it to be as intuitive as possible for 433 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:02,430 newcomers, we also have these decisions were tied to that 434 00:27:02,670 --> 00:27:04,860 don't make as much sense now. But they made a lot of sense 435 00:27:04,860 --> 00:27:08,400 five years ago or two years ago. So how do we rectify both of 436 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:08,820 those? 437 00:27:11,099 --> 00:27:13,859 So we we discussed, you know, the Buddhist concept of 438 00:27:13,859 --> 00:27:19,049 beginner's mind, and how that kind of helps overcome the curse 439 00:27:19,049 --> 00:27:23,909 of knowledge. And those are some great tools. Now, here's the new 440 00:27:23,939 --> 00:27:29,369 term, the power of the outsider. So can you explain that a little 441 00:27:29,369 --> 00:27:33,029 bit? And then, you know, how does it relate to all of this? 442 00:27:33,270 --> 00:27:38,910 Yeah, I think the power of the outsider for pants itself, is 443 00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:42,570 exactly what Eric was saying earlier, just having people come 444 00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:46,080 in and tinker and use the product in a way that maybe they 445 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,880 never even thought of before. And that kind of shows them that 446 00:27:50,910 --> 00:27:53,850 there, there actually is value there, right there. There could 447 00:27:53,850 --> 00:27:58,710 be value if we design the tool to work that way. So what that 448 00:27:58,710 --> 00:28:01,860 could drive is decisions, you know, let's say for their yearly 449 00:28:01,860 --> 00:28:05,490 planning and say, Hey, like, we want better incremental 450 00:28:05,490 --> 00:28:09,690 adoption, because people going from no pants to wearing pants 451 00:28:10,170 --> 00:28:14,610 have to incrementally get there, right. And so I think the power 452 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,150 of the outsider is just that feedback loop that is absolutely 453 00:28:18,150 --> 00:28:21,390 critical for any project to succeed, whether it be an open 454 00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:24,750 source project, or an internal like product that you're 455 00:28:24,750 --> 00:28:27,840 building for a company, right? We have testers, right? We have 456 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,110 people that will use the product and give us feedback right away, 457 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,870 we take that feedback very seriously. And they're, they're 458 00:28:33,870 --> 00:28:36,600 the ones outside of the org, right? They don't see how we 459 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,900 build it. And they might even use the product in a way that we 460 00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:43,530 never thought of. So we got to take that seriously and tap into 461 00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:45,750 that knowledge of the outsider. 462 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,220 Yeah, and just I loved your episode a couple of weeks ago 463 00:28:50,220 --> 00:28:54,120 about silos and remote work. I think that's very relevant here. 464 00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:58,080 One of the important things that we as an open source community 465 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,020 have tried to focus on is making sure that the community is 466 00:29:01,020 --> 00:29:05,010 represented by multiple organizations. I work for tool 467 00:29:05,010 --> 00:29:07,800 chain, which is the lead sponsor of the project. But there's 468 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,520 multiple organizations that are both active users and also have 469 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,360 active maintainers. We found that having that diversity of 470 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,780 stakeholders has made the project overall more resilient 471 00:29:18,810 --> 00:29:21,900 and brought in new perspectives that we wouldn't have considered 472 00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:23,070 if it was the only tool chain. 473 00:29:24,450 --> 00:29:27,810 From projects big and small companies big and small. It 474 00:29:27,810 --> 00:29:30,630 doesn't matter you their name is there, you could be like them, 475 00:29:30,780 --> 00:29:31,410 essentially. 476 00:29:32,970 --> 00:29:37,680 Well, Eric, Nick, thank you so much for coming on. You've 477 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:45,930 taught me a lot I came in as as a an outsider to this concept 478 00:29:45,930 --> 00:29:51,720 and I am a beginner and now I feel like I have not a lot but I 479 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,690 have some of that curse of knowledge on the topic. I know 480 00:29:57,690 --> 00:30:00,570 enough to be dangerous as some people like to say All right. 481 00:30:01,410 --> 00:30:04,080 Okay, we have to touch on the pig real quick. Yeah, 482 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,080 absolutely. Eric, tell me a little bit about the pig. 483 00:30:07,740 --> 00:30:11,670 Yeah, so I would love to eventually adopt some pot 484 00:30:11,670 --> 00:30:17,430 bellied pigs. They're extremely smart. A lot of people say that 485 00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:21,120 having a pig is like having a three year old toddler. And 486 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,610 actually a lot cleaner than a lot of people realize if they 487 00:30:23,610 --> 00:30:26,430 like they can live indoors as long as they have some outdoor 488 00:30:26,430 --> 00:30:27,060 space, 489 00:30:27,270 --> 00:30:29,280 probably much cleaner than my three year old was. 490 00:30:31,260 --> 00:30:35,190 So there's this really cool sanctuary down in Tucson called 491 00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:39,000 the Ironwood pig sanctuary. And one of the fun projects I did 492 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,660 last year was that they had a website written in literal HTML 493 00:30:42,660 --> 00:30:48,540 and CSS from 2002. They someone generously donated back in 2002. 494 00:30:48,750 --> 00:30:52,710 They've been using this website for 20 years. So I remade their 495 00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:57,870 website using Squarespace and the sanctuary with 650, pot 496 00:30:57,870 --> 00:31:02,310 bellied pigs, that a lot of people when they adopt a pig 497 00:31:02,820 --> 00:31:05,670 breeders will lie and say that there are many pigs or micro 498 00:31:05,670 --> 00:31:10,350 pigs or teacup pigs. They're not actually their baby pigs, and 499 00:31:10,380 --> 00:31:13,290 the readers will say they won't be more than 40 pounds. They 500 00:31:13,290 --> 00:31:18,330 often grow up to be up to 150. And people don't clear it with 501 00:31:18,330 --> 00:31:22,830 their HOA or don't realize like what it takes to have that big 502 00:31:22,830 --> 00:31:26,040 of a pig. So I think it's something like 95% of people who 503 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,330 adopt a pet pig end up giving it up for adoption. Wow. Amazing. 504 00:31:31,230 --> 00:31:36,870 Yeah, yeah. No fun for the pig. Amazing sanctuary, I love to 505 00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:40,260 visit pretty close to where I am in Phoenix. And they have this 506 00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:42,600 like sponsor a pig, where they'll write you letters about 507 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:43,530 your pig, and so on. 508 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:49,350 That's awesome. That's awesome. And Nick, you you do DIY you do? 509 00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:50,730 What are your DIY, 510 00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:55,979 more recently, like home automation. So having an 511 00:31:55,979 --> 00:32:00,389 internal Kubernetes cluster, running all the home lab jazz, 512 00:32:00,629 --> 00:32:05,099 you know, a piehole, all that good stuff. We like to do 513 00:32:05,099 --> 00:32:07,799 internal development or like side projects, right. And this 514 00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:10,949 is just like a platform that we can use to experiment and test 515 00:32:10,949 --> 00:32:14,459 on. And I think it's it's pretty amazing. Like all the open 516 00:32:14,459 --> 00:32:17,399 source tools out there, you're like you could get from zero to 517 00:32:17,399 --> 00:32:21,269 almost being like your own cloud provider. It's pretty amazing. 518 00:32:21,269 --> 00:32:24,269 So now we got like, a bunch of computers in our house like 519 00:32:24,269 --> 00:32:26,819 being shipped all over from our friends, like any part that we 520 00:32:26,819 --> 00:32:29,999 could get and just add a note to our cluster and extend it out. 521 00:32:29,999 --> 00:32:32,909 Like we're really trying to do that. And it's a lot of fun. 522 00:32:32,909 --> 00:32:35,609 Like you learn a lot of cool practices while doing it. 523 00:32:36,390 --> 00:32:39,330 Awesome. Does your house glow from Can you see it from outer 524 00:32:39,330 --> 00:32:40,020 space? 525 00:32:40,290 --> 00:32:44,790 I could change my lights in my room a daddy. So that's all from 526 00:32:44,790 --> 00:32:47,880 one dashboard. Yeah, but I think that next step Yeah, glow from 527 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,570 outer space. And then we'll have like the pigs. Yeah. 528 00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:55,290 Advertisement be up there. And you know, they don't Yeah. 529 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:57,870 That's great. 530 00:32:59,010 --> 00:33:03,450 By the way, with website remake project, I mentioned that 531 00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:06,600 there's a lot of organizations out there where they're awesome 532 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,210 at what they do. Like the six people who run the sanctuary are 533 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,210 know everything there is to know about pigs. Technology's a 534 00:33:12,210 --> 00:33:14,490 little overwhelming to them, kind of like Jason sounds like 535 00:33:14,490 --> 00:33:17,760 your mom with text messages. So even if you're not a software 536 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,350 engineer, you there are a lot of opportunities of like, all I did 537 00:33:22,350 --> 00:33:24,390 was set them up with Squarespace. I didn't program 538 00:33:24,390 --> 00:33:29,310 anything. And then I set them up with like, new email. die a lot 539 00:33:29,310 --> 00:33:33,180 of organizations would love your help with tech, even if it's not 540 00:33:33,180 --> 00:33:34,050 actual programming. 541 00:33:35,099 --> 00:33:37,979 Random Acts of Kindness. We discussed this with Gotham 542 00:33:37,979 --> 00:33:45,089 palapa, and his new book on, on empathy, and it's, yeah, I think 543 00:33:45,089 --> 00:33:47,819 everybody could find something that they could do to contribute 544 00:33:47,819 --> 00:33:51,239 to do something to kind of give back. So appreciate your saying 545 00:33:51,239 --> 00:33:54,299 that Eric and Eric and Nick, really appreciate you coming on 546 00:33:54,299 --> 00:33:58,949 the show giving us some of your time. And, and teaching us all 547 00:33:58,949 --> 00:34:05,129 about you know, about this whole I mean, the, the concepts of, 548 00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:10,379 of, of curse of knowledge and the power of the outsider and 549 00:34:10,379 --> 00:34:13,979 beginners and I mean, geez, there's a lot of new concepts 550 00:34:13,979 --> 00:34:17,039 thrown at me. So I really appreciate your your walking 551 00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:17,609 through it. 552 00:34:18,060 --> 00:34:20,610 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having us. And now I'd also 553 00:34:20,610 --> 00:34:23,790 We're a friendly bunch on the pen Spode Slack. So even if you 554 00:34:23,850 --> 00:34:25,920 don't want to use the technology or anything like that, you just 555 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,470 want to talk more about this, we'd be happy to have you join. 556 00:34:28,769 --> 00:34:32,159 Yeah, that'd be great. I would love to jump in. Awesome. And 557 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:36,119 thank you, to our listeners for joining us for this episode of 558 00:34:36,119 --> 00:34:39,209 the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode 559 00:34:39,209 --> 00:34:41,699 the same way I always do, encouraging you to become a 560 00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:44,819 member of DevOps Institute to get access to even more great 561 00:34:44,819 --> 00:34:48,509 resources just like this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay 562 00:34:48,509 --> 00:34:52,079 healthy, and most of all, stay human, live long and prosper. 563 00:34:54,780 --> 00:34:57,270 Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of DevOps 564 00:34:57,270 --> 00:35:00,450 podcast. Don't forget to join our global community To get 565 00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:03,750 access to even more great resources like this until next 566 00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:07,200 time remember you are part of something bigger than yourself 567 00:35:07,530 --> 00:35:08,250 you belong