Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a

podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,

knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the SKIL framework.

Dan Pupius: [inaudible] environment is how you get

people to do their best work because they feel much more

connected to the purpose of their work. And they feel much

more ownership when there's a lack of trust. And that's just

going to inhibit a lot of their ability to be creative, to

collaborate to get feedback.

Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member

experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps

podcast. Welcome back. Thanks for making it for another week,

we are happy to have you. And this week, I'm really excited to

be talking about how team manager specifically can

significantly improve culture, productivity and employee

satisfaction, using a healthy mix of technology, compassion,

and forward thinking. And honestly, these skills are more

than just for managers, I would think but as we are now living

in our many people are living in the second year of remote work.

And you know, maybe there's some hybrid sprinkled in there, maybe

we're going back a little bit more, but I think many are still

working remotely. This is a very timely podcast episode. So with

me to discuss those issues is Dan papayas. Dan is the CEO and

co founder of range, a workplace collaboration software that

builds high performance culture. He's formerly the head and of

engineering at medium, and staff software engineer at Google. And

in past lives, he's raised snowboards jumped out of planes

and lived in the jungle. So he's led a pretty boring life. Dan,

welcome to the podcast.

Dan Pupius: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Awesome.

Jason Baum: Yeah, as exciting as living in the jungle.

Dan Pupius: I'm sure a little bit by the jungle sounds sounds

fun, but it's really living in a clearing that's kind of gets

kind of muddy, and then looking after people living in tents for

three months. So it's not as not as uh, maybe, you know,

attractive as it sounds,

Jason Baum: and picturing The Jungle Book in my head. So I

don't know, are fighting a lot of mosquitoes? One of the two.

Yeah. Well, thanks for joining us. So let's just dive right in.

Are you ready to get human? Definitely. Awesome. All right.

So let's just start with this. Why is it important for

organizations to build a healthy team culture for developers?

Dan Pupius: Yeah, well, I mean, I think, I mean, culture can

often seem like a fluffy word, that's a nice to have supplied

afterwards. But really, you have a culture, whether you want it

or not, and it's whether you're intentional or not. And as

organizations grow, things change and issues, propagates.

And if you're not careful, you know, the culture can

metastasize. And you can end up with a situation where people

don't feel respected, don't feel safe, don't take risks, don't,

you know, aren't creative and communicate well with each

other. So really, the goal of, you know, a manager in an

organization is to create a culture where you can achieve

your goals. And if you're a modern organization, you need

people to, you know, have psychological safety, so they

can take risks and grow as a, you know, an individual, you

know, hit their goals. And, you know, that's why you should

intentionally focus on building culture.

Jason Baum: Yeah, I guess when people think of culture, they

think of ability to work with their peers, you know, how they,

I guess, feelings, but I like that. How you said it's to

achieve goals, because I think that's, that's an easier sell

sometimes to write when you're all focused on the same thing.

Dan Pupius: Yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot of these people,

issues that are held up as yeah, like I said, nice to have. But

really, they're fundamental, and they are tied to business goals.

So once you can reframe them, they become a lot easier to

support, and much more concrete. And it's not just about making

people happy, for the sake of being happy, like, being happy

means you're engaged with your work, you're more likely to be

loyal and more likely to be retained. And you will actually

be more creative and you know, and you know, better at your

job. So there's, you know, there's a symbiotic relationship

between the needs for work and the needs of an organization.

And it doesn't, you know, we're not living in factories anymore.

We're not, you know, cogs in a machine. We need people to be on

the, you know, on the most creative and most kind of

inspirational selves and to do that we need to create an

environment where they can win they can manifest that.

Jason Baum: So why do companies choose to not focus on building

healthy team culture?

Dan Pupius: I think the old school would be seen as a nice

to have that is not it's not about the work and you know, we

should focus on goals and like, you know, these these entire I

told engineers who wants, you know, who want this and that,

and, you know, just asking too much. So I think that that's one

thing. The second thing is, I think fear or uncertainty, they

don't really know what it means. So they don't know what they're

doing cuz they're not trained in this, like, they're trained as

engineers or managers or like designers, they're not trained

in organizational design, or psychology or group behavior or

group dynamics. So they just don't know what they're doing.

So saying, That's why people would not would not do it, it's

like, either, they don't believe that actually has a positive

effect on the business, or they just don't know what to do.

Jason Baum: Here, you bring up culture, and someone's gonna be

like, I'm not having a conversation about a four day

workweek, like, you know, like, they go instantly to like, the

the benefits and that, rather than the actual core, talking

about,

Dan Pupius: there's a lot of misunderstanding about what

culture is the culture is that whether you want it or not, it's

the essentially the way you behave, and you interact with

each other. And one way to measure culture or to observe

culture is what you recognize and reward. So if, if you think

of like recognition as attention, what you pay

attention to is what you reward. So if you only ever work for,

like, you know, engineers, if you only rewarding launches,

that's what will define your culture. And then people who are

doing some of the other grungy work keeping the systems running

or fixing bugs or handling security issues. They're not

getting the attention, and therefore, you know, that's, you

know, it's out of sight out of mind.

Jason Baum: So, I mean, you just touched on a couple, are there

additional company culture related issues that developers

specifically are facing in 2022?

Dan Pupius: Yeah, I mean, I think definitely unique times.

So you mentioned in the opening around remote work in the

pandemic. And so, mass, mass rescue remote workers up ended,

many people remote work wasn't new, it's, you know, it's been

going on for decades. And even in the 2008, financial crisis,

remote work really expanded. But it wasn't, you know, 100% of the

workforce, 100% of desk workers weren't working remote, which is

what we saw, kind of like last year. So so. So, organizations

now having to figure out how to settle in the long term, instead

of just, you know, surviving. And that's like, causing huge

changes. The other thing, which you also mentioned, was like

hybrid. So some people are starting to go back to the

office, but many people aren't. And a lot of the survey suggests

that a significant portion of the population wants to stay

remote, at least part time. What this means is you have a

bifurcated workforce, where some people are in the office, some

people are remote, and that actually amplifies a lot of the

issues that people are facing, then I think the third issue is

really about just the long term effects of the pandemic. So

people are feeling isolation, fear, you know, anxiety, they

sort through an all time high. And that affects our ability to

show up for work and the ability to relate to people. So when

you're thinking about what healthy culture is, it's like,

how do you support people when family members are sick, or they

don't have childcare? Or, you know, they just like feeling

really burnt out after two months in a loft apartment, like

I like I'm heading and and that changes, like how we have to

approach work.

Jason Baum: Yeah, so work as hard as it is, right? If you

are, you're already focused on on all these business goals. And

now you have to focus on individual personalities, and

everyone is different, right? That's what defines us as humans

is we are all unique, and have our unique issues. So how like,

I mean, specifically for that last last issue that you just

named, the one that we all are kind of facing, which is this,

we all just kind of have been through a major trauma. You

know, by many, many people in the mental health industry, I've

been kind of flagging, as, hey, this is this is a major trauma

that we have all just suffered not just one or two people. And

then keeping people on task on on focused on the on the goal at

hand, but also providing a stable work environment that is

open and receptive to people's issues, whatever they may be,

that is an outcome of this. Where Where did where where do

you begin with that?

Dan Pupius: Yeah, it's super difficult. I think, ultimately,

there's no one answer one silver bullet. I think a good starting

point is to focus on people's needs. So like, how, what do

people need in order to be successful at work? And just

talk to people to have conversations, you know, where

are they struggling? what's working, what's not working,

both on an individual level and then a team level? And then you

can, you can, you can go for that. So some of the things

we've been doing it range reacting to this as, like, we

make sure that we have one extra day off every month. So like the

whole company shut down. So this isn't just encouraging people to

take vacation. That means that everyone's offline, so you know,

there's no email, there's no slack to catch up on. And that

really helps people switch off for a long weekend. We've also

laid in, you know, a new set of benefits including, you know,

therapy support and stipends for make your home office a little

bit nicer, just to make the environment feel like it's

changing, so it doesn't feel so static. And then we also just

think about, you know, how people work. So what type of

projects are suitable for someone's mindset at a certain

point in time, if they're really struggling, you probably don't

want to put them on a really Greenfield app, you know, you

know, abstract projects, you want to give them some more like

concrete work streams, where they can just like churn through

tasks and feel a sense of accomplishment. And then when

they have, you know, some wins under the belt, maybe you can

give them some things that are more, you know, more, kind of

more creative and more, more like, you know, Greenfield?

Jason Baum: Great. Yeah, and I wanted to talk about windowed

work, because this is something that I have not heard of before.

But as a term that when we, we were chatting, you threw that

word out. So I would like to dive into that a little bit

more. And what are these benefits? These other therapy

benefits such as windowed work?

Dan Pupius: Yeah, yeah, I mean, window work is, is pretty

straightforward, really. And I'm sure it makes sense to you. So

the old way of working was that you'd be in a factory or at a

desk nine to five. And if you weren't at your desk, you

weren't working. And there's a bunch of reasons why that's bad

in the modern day. So the first reason that's bad is that many

people have logistical needs, such as childcare, eldercare

health things, you know, that don't mean that they can be at a

desk nine to five. The second thing is that when they are

sitting at a desk, nine to five, they're not actually working

100% utilized, like we do creative work. And if you think

you can sit at a desk eight hours and be productive for

eight hours, like you're kidding yourself. So it's important to

have breaks and take off. And then the third thing is that

different people actually have different energy cycles. So you

might have heard of like, are you an owl? Or are you a lark,

and this actually maps to your ability to have different types

of cognitive function, the different types of the day to

what you're good at in the morning, might be very different

from what I'm good at the morning. And like, I might

actually be better doing that type of thing eight o'clock at

night, because I'm more of an owl. So So having this nine to

five, work schedule that, you know, that is uniform for

everyone just doesn't make sense. In in knowledge work, it

was designed for factories. So the idea of windowed work is

very simple. It's essentially to break up the workweek into

Windows. So instead of it being nine to five, five days a week,

you can structure a schedule that works for you, both your

energy and also your logistical needs. So if you want to do a

really early morning and do two hours, five to seven at home,

then go off to the gym for a few hours, and then like work in the

afternoon, in the evening, you know, we should be able to

accommodate that from from a work schedule. If I have

childcare needs on Wednesday morning, I can find that my

calendar is like a yellow zone. So I'm available for

emergencies, but mostly not not available. That's like my

childcare window. So really, it's just about fragmenting and

fragmenting the workweek to better suit you. So you can

actually, you know, have better work life integration, and then

be, you know, be more productive as well.

Jason Baum: I love that concept. It is true. And like the thing I

noticed when moving to working remote, I was remote for a year

before the pandemic is that you get so much more work done. At

home, I find some people do, some people don't. But I found

that I was much more focused at tasks, because you'll have

people knocking on your door coming in and doing whatever you

know, going to get coffee and you get stopped, you know, in

the hallway. So when you start adding up all those hours, you

realize how many hours you weren't working at work when

you're there for nine to five. So then all that time it goes

into the task and take a shorter amount of time.

Dan Pupius: Well, that period in the early afternoon, between one

and three where you kind of just stare at your computer and

everything goes really slowly. Like why not just step away, go

for a run or you know, go to a park and just accept that you're

not gonna make you're not gonna be productive during that time.

So, but you're going to be more productive in the evening

because that's when your brain comes online.

Jason Baum: Yeah, I'm so glad I'm wasn't the only one that was

just staring at my computer from one to three. Yeah, no 100% And

now with you know, because kids were home from school, and you

know, now many are back but I think in many ways life was

disrupted, but it helped us to prioritize. And I from a

business perspective, I'm wondering like, you know, how

goal setting plays into that when you have this windowed

work, I think of teachers out you know, with with with school,

it's almost like teachers hours, when you can go find your, you

know, office hours or whatever, and kind of need to have

something when you can all collaborate at once, you know,

when everyone's on at the same time. But

Dan Pupius: yeah, I think that I think a lot of the resistance

this level of flexibility is rooted in the lack of trust that

People are motivated to do the work that you hired them to do.

And that seems like a bigger problem to me, then, you know,

forcing a nine to five at the desk. So if you if you decouple

the flexibility from the motivation, and then

accountability as well. Like you hold people accountable for the

work they're meant to do, and the outcomes are meant to drive

you motivate them by helping them have a sense of purpose,

mastery and connection with the team and the company. And then

you and then you use that as a foundation for building these

flexible work work situations. And then, once you have this

flexible work situations, you realize that people aren't

always going to be available to respond to Slack nine to five.

So how do you set up the communication protocols that

support that? So we think about this in terms of like cadence

and rituals? And and how do you support you know, a lot of

asynchronous communication that is more of a like a Pub Sub

model, where in the morning, I check in, and it doesn't need to

be synchronously at the same time that you check in. Like, if

I check in at 911, it doesn't matter, but the information gets

shared. And we just remove the urgency from a lot of the

communication because a lot of the time, we don't need an

instant response. We don't need this to be like synchronously

online, and AdMob. Back in 2006, I was working with teams in

Zurich, and Japan and like, there's no way we could always

get on line at the same time. So we had to figure out ways of

working. So really, it's just using those those principles,

but applying it to people who may actually just live down the

road from you,

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after trial activation. And that that initial culture, right

that, I think is Many businesses have still it's it's a culture

of mistrust, rather than a culture of trust. Right. And

yeah, I think that's what you're talking about a little bit.

Dan Pupius: Right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, the phrase

like a high trust environment and a high trust environment is,

is how you get people to do their best work because they

feel much more connected to the, to the purpose of their work,

and the, you know, they feel much more ownership or when

there's a lack of trust, people don't take risks, they, they

worry about making mistakes, they worry about asking

questions. And that's just going to inhibit a lot of their

ability to be creative, to collaborate to give feedback,

and then you end up with problems that many people have

heard of like groupthink, or, you know, like, autocratic

decision making all these problems that emerged in

organizations can be rooted in this lack of trust and safety.

Jason Baum: What are some additional things that you do to

have a culture of trust? I'd be curious to know.

Dan Pupius: Yeah, so I think a mental model I really like is

from Daniel coils culture code, which is he has a progression.

So psychological safety is really well understood now,

thanks to Google. But you know, it dates back to the 60s in

terms of the research. So Google popularized it, but people still

find it a relatively abstract concept, though, Daniel Cole

breaks it down, which is that psychological psychological

safety requires belonging, a sense of belonging, belonging

requires trust and interest requires vulnerability. So you

often think that you have to have trust in order to be

vulnerable, but it's actually the other way around, you have

to exhibit vulnerability in order to gain trust. And this

goes to some pretty basic you know, psychological behaviors

such as, like smiling or like showing someone some like body

language, which we're, you know, we're not enemies, we're on the

same side, like things like handshakes and all these like

micro cues, to create the sense of like that listen to like,

micro vulnerability moments that leads to trust and and

belonging. There in the remote world where you don't see people

in the elevator and the coffee in the coffee kitchen. There's

not as much opportunity for these belonging cues, as they're

called so plushy much harder to build trust. So so we think

about that as like the foundation and how do we create

these Moments of vulnerability. And that might be playing games

or having silly check ins where we share, share images of what

we did over the weekend, or we have, you know, fun and play is

actually a really good way of having very low stakes

vulnerability, like it requires vulnerability to laugh and play

a game. But, and that's like a good way of building culture.

But you know, it's just all these touch points throughout

the weekend throughout the month that we think about. And then

we've even done silly things like we did like a spirit week,

which required a lot of vulnerability and silliness. And

that's, you know, that's how you build that foundation. And then

on top of that, people, then you find ones, they have

psychological safety, they take risks, they speak, speak up,

they push back on, you know, executive decision making, like,

I love that like being CEO that people once people question me

like, but that's not that's not a given.

Jason Baum: Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's great. Something

else that you had mentioned was the mind was mind mapping, mind

mapping tools and mood mapping? Or I'm sorry, mood mood mapping?

Yeah. And I would love to learn a little bit more about that,

and what how you're using that?

Dan Pupius: Yeah. So the range products are essentially an

asynchronous checking tool at the core, which is kind of like

a virtual standup. And so in the same way that individual standup

you share, what you did, what you're planning, and then

anything that's blocked. You know, we do all that

asynchronously. But what we've also added is these, these sort

of cultural check ins, and one component is the mood. So it

might sound silly, but you select the traffic light, red,

yellow, green, and then an emoji that represents your mood. So

today, I was like a green cowboy. But yesterday, I was

like yellow sleepy. And this is important for a couple of

reasons. One, it's like a moment of like, introspection of like,

how am I actually showing up to work today. And that actually is

a powerful moment in itself. But then also sharing it with the

team is good context. So when you remote, you have no idea

like how, how I am, right, and you have all these like little

hints through slack and email, or GitHub reviews. And you'll

start writing stories like is Dan pissed off with me is done

upset, or is down being aloof. And if you just know that I

literally haven't slept last night because my daughter was

up. And I have this yellow, these emoji that'll like calm a

lot of your anxieties. So that's the mood, the mood sharing in

the moment. And then what we can do is we in at all that we have

the mood history. So you can see the aggregate moves for the team

over time. And this just helps you understand, like how people

are faring, and especially in the pandemic, there's been a lot

more yellow and red than there was previously. And and then we

just use that as a signal of like, do we need to change

timelines? Do we need to, you know, rebalance work, or, you

know, spend some extra time thinking about, like recovery

and repair, or like, it probably like progressed for extended

period of time, and we, you know, ask fundamental questions

about what we're doing to support the team and ensure that

people are able to show up to work as a full selves.

Jason Baum: I love that. It's like the DevOps principle, you

know, like continuous feedback. You know, having that feedback

loop is so, so important. I mean, it's so interesting. So

you, like your, your name shows up with a mood next, like, how

do people see your mood? Like, how do they know that Dan is

feeling yellow today? By the way, I'm so totally stealing

this, we have we have to do we have to? Can we we have to

collaborate offline about how we can do this.

Dan Pupius: I mean, he's right. So yeah, when you

Jason Baum: know, I would love to use range. So we will have to

talk about how.

Dan Pupius: And then every time everywhere that check in shows

up, whether it be in Slack or email, like you see the person's

mood. And then also the avatar in meetings is has a yellow

ring, which can, it can be mildly stressful, but also, it's

helpful, because it's not masking reality. So it gives you

something to talk about this abstract. So instead of, hey,

you seem stressed today. It's like, Hey, I noticed you checked

in with the lat yellow emoji like how are you doing? And it D

personalizes it a little bit. Whereas it's really hard to talk

about someone that's like, you seem really aggro?

Jason Baum: Do you find that people have a hard time

initially getting used to it?

Dan Pupius: Um, surprisingly not. And what we found is it's

like the vulnerability is contagious. So I'm actually

surprised that people check in so openly, like around 10% of

users check in red every day. Just kind of interesting. Wow.

But But yeah, I think a lot of people think that, that so we

have the three colors, but then we also have the emojis which

allows like some resolution and some differences. So like the

difference between like a sunglasses emoji and a greeting

emoji, you know, it has like flavor. And so it makes it kind

of like a fun exercise, as well. So it definitely doesn't feel

like surveillance or oversights. It's, it's very much about

showing with your team. You know the reality of you Your

experience today?

Jason Baum: So do you ever do anything with that, you know, to

steer maybe some experiences that you offer the team. So if

you're getting like 25% Read, you're like, hold on, we need to

do early happy hour or something we need to do something to,

although maybe you don't want to do early happy hour if

everybody's read. But yeah, like, what do you what do you do

with that?

Dan Pupius: Yeah, we've, we've never had to have a major

intervention like that. But we definitely think about, like, is

the pacing too hard, like if a project is pacing really fast,

and as the launch is pushing up, and everyone's running yellow,

like just being intentional about that, and you probably

haven't, even without the mood mapping, you probably have a

sense that that's going on. But the yellow makes it very

explicit. And it kind of encourages you to take action.

So then it's so you start talking about it. So like, I

know, everyone's pushing really hard this, I really appreciate

all your work, it's really important. And this makes sure

to take a break when you know, after after launch day. If

individuals are read, we sometimes encourage them to drop

down to a four day week, using the vacation to have like some

recovery time. So it definitely allows you to create

interventions, which I think then basically head off burnout,

before it gets too bad. Because you have these various stages of

burnout. And if you let it get too bad, it's almost

unrecoverable. So if we can get these early warning signs, I

think that can be really valuable.

Jason Baum: I love it, because what it does is I'm assuming you

have kids based on what you were saying about childcare. Yeah, so

yeah. So so you're nodding and and don't you I wish my child

came with one of those where we can move map mood mapper, it

would certainly make my life easier. But I think hers too,

because it would be, you know, acknowledging is such is

sometimes the biggest piece of it is just acknowledging that

you feel this way. You don't have to change it. No one's like

forcing you to change it. But just I am yellow today. Everyone

knows about it now. And we can address it if we need to address

it, or we don't have to address it if we don't.

Dan Pupius: Yeah, totally. So my daughter, my eldest daughter

uses green, yellow, red, blue, some signs of emotional

regulation that comes from her school. And it gives you a

language and a vocabulary to talk about it. That's non

judgmental. So I think what's interesting with them all the

list read is both. It basically means out of control, which can

be out of control negative or out of control positive. So it

doesn't have any judgment in the color. It's just about like how

much control you have, essentially. And then blue is

sad and sad or slow or sleepy. But we are we use that with her

every evening actually, like we have a it's kind of funny, we

have like a check in a bad time. Like, how are you feeling like,

and then we have, you know, we can talk about it. And it's just

like a really nice way of talking about emotions in a non

judgmental way that doesn't label them as like stigmas. But

it's just it's like things you can observe and discuss.

Jason Baum: I love that. I think I would be blue every day

though, because I'm at least slower sleepy. I think the

majority of the time. At least.

Dan Pupius: I'm 90 simpler when we do the check in for sure.

Yeah, sorry.

Jason Baum: I think that's a panda. I think pandemic has

definitely made it worse too. But yeah, putting on clothes

these days, you know, it's life is a struggle. I really

appreciate it. And this has been eye opening. And I want to

continue to talk to you about range, because I'm definitely

interested, especially in the in mood mapping. I feel like we

could talk about that all day. I think it's fascinating. And

companies need to use this. Because it's it's just

understanding getting a pulse check of how people feel, is

definitely the missing piece. I think nobody's really asking

that. They say they want a positive culture. They don't

really talk about how you're feeling, though.

Dan Pupius: Yeah, I think so that's another thing about goes

back getting back to culture. It's like what you talked about

and what you acknowledge, is that how you define your

culture. So if you are transparent and open and

actually honest, that's the culture you will create an if

you're reserved, and, you know, we don't talk about certain

things. That's also the cultural craze. And that will like eat

you alive eventually.

Jason Baum: Yeah, well, you're taking a proactive approach by

using this, which is great, rather than being reactive,

which is an I don't think anybody wants to be reactive. So

that's, or maybe some find it easier. But yeah, I don't think

you want to be reactive towards this. Okay.

Dan Pupius: I mean, just just one final comment, like, it

takes vulnerability to be proactive. It's much easier to

be reactive, and, you know, you have to take risk.

Jason Baum: So, yeah, we had a whole podcast on productive

honesty. And I think in in many respects, this is the company

being proactively honest and encouraging proactive honesty

from employees, and it's like, Wow, imagine a world where we

can all just be adult adults have a hard time with with this

though so I shouldn't even say it that way but this is like the

fact that you're that you work on that with with your with your

daughter you know and and we do the same with our daughter my

wife and I not we haven't used the colors I need to introduce

the colors this is great. But we don't do it enough. I think as

adults sharing like our moods even just just the basic concept

of that starts that conversation and allows for proactive

honesty. Well, okay, so I want to bring it back to the jungle

real quick because we always close the show on something a

little more personal but you you already shared first of all that

you you race, snowboards. So you're just not You're not just

snowboarding but you also race.

Dan Pupius: I used to Yeah, I was. I wasn't University race

team. That's awesome.

Jason Baum: Okay, I've I can't even balance someone. You jump

out of planes. That's something you've always wanted to do, too.

Dan Pupius: I skydive for a while before kids so did around

100 jumps, which was not a lot by like, I skydiver standards.

It's like you either do 1000 jumps, or like two. So I did. I

did about 100

Jason Baum: I'm on the I always wanted to. And I think I'm just

gonna say that through. Maybe when I'm at I'll do it. George

George Herbert Walker is it when he was like 80

Dan Pupius: I find it really relaxing. It's like so so Zen's

being up there. It's amazing.

Jason Baum: It's really the part before it can't be relaxing.

That can't be there's no way that can be relaxing. It's it's

while you're in flight, right?

Dan Pupius: The night before and then the bit after, when you

pull the parachute not relaxing, but the bit in the middle of a

relaxing once the

Jason Baum: parachutes pulled. And you know, you're you're

coming down, and it's okay. Now we're now we can relax.

Dan Pupius: But that's the most dangerous part. Most people

injured themselves into fully open canopy. Really? Yeah,

because he's still approaching the ground at say 35 miles an

hour, and then low turns. Anyway, it's the time you're

closest to the ground as well. So that's why it's most risky.

Jason Baum: See, now I can't even do it. Because now I'm

going to be thinking, Well, Dan said that I'm not in the clear

just yet. And then you live in the jungle, which you You start

off by saying wasn't that it that it sounds more interesting,

but I want to hear about it.

Dan Pupius: Yeah, I worked for an organization called Operation

Wallacea who do biodiversity studies and social engagements

around the world. And I worked in Honduras. So I helped run the

base camp where we had a bunch of scientists and dissertation

students out there doing research. So I made sure people

had guides to take him into the jungle that we had food that

accommodation, that they were like that if there's medical

evacuation, we had to do the medical evacuation. And it's

like, yeah, three months living in this clearing in the jungle.

Jason Baum: And in in Honduras, Honduras jungle. Wow, that's

okay. What wildlife did you encounter anything cool?

Dan Pupius: Unfortunately, I mean, not by the camp, at least.

They're mostly birds. There were people trying to trap large,

large mammals, but with limited success, so it's mostly things

like bats and insects and snakes.

Jason Baum: Stay white. Yeah. Cool. Well, yeah. So it wasn't

the Jungle Book. I don't know. In my head. I'll still think of

it. You know, like you were talking to a bear. And I don't

know what else to do in the jungle. Well, that's great.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a lot

of fun talking culture and talking, windowed work and mood

mapping. And I definitely want to continue the conversation. I

want to learn more about range. Why don't you tell everyone

where they can find range? And, and, and anything else that you

want to share?

Dan Pupius: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having us on. That was

really fun. Yeah, you can find out about range at dub dub

dub.range.co. And, yeah, we're happy to offer listeners a

discount or free trial. Yes, we can configure that after it's

maybe.

Jason Baum: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. And

thank you for listening to this episode of the humans of DevOps

Podcast. I'm going to end this episode the same way I always do

encourage you to become a member of DevOps Institute to get

access to even more great resources just like this one.

Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy. And most of all, stay

human, live long and prosper.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of

DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get

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