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Narrator: You're listening to
the humans of DevOps podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas, and learning,
or the SKIL framework.

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Dan Pupius: [inaudible]
environment is how you get

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people to do their best work
because they feel much more

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connected to the purpose of
their work. And they feel much

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more ownership when there's a
lack of trust. And that's just

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going to inhibit a lot of their
ability to be creative, to

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collaborate to get feedback.

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Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's
Jason Baum, Director of Member

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experience at DevOps Institute.
And this is the humans of DevOps

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podcast. Welcome back. Thanks
for making it for another week,

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we are happy to have you. And
this week, I'm really excited to

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be talking about how team
manager specifically can

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significantly improve culture,
productivity and employee

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satisfaction, using a healthy
mix of technology, compassion,

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and forward thinking. And
honestly, these skills are more

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than just for managers, I would
think but as we are now living

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in our many people are living in
the second year of remote work.

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And you know, maybe there's some
hybrid sprinkled in there, maybe

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we're going back a little bit
more, but I think many are still

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working remotely. This is a very
timely podcast episode. So with

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me to discuss those issues is
Dan papayas. Dan is the CEO and

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co founder of range, a workplace
collaboration software that

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builds high performance culture.
He's formerly the head and of

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engineering at medium, and staff
software engineer at Google. And

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in past lives, he's raised
snowboards jumped out of planes

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and lived in the jungle. So he's
led a pretty boring life. Dan,

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welcome to the podcast.

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Dan Pupius: Thanks for having
me. Excited to be here. Awesome.

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Jason Baum: Yeah, as exciting as
living in the jungle.

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Dan Pupius: I'm sure a little
bit by the jungle sounds sounds

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fun, but it's really living in a
clearing that's kind of gets

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kind of muddy, and then looking
after people living in tents for

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three months. So it's not as not
as uh, maybe, you know,

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attractive as it sounds,

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Jason Baum: and picturing The
Jungle Book in my head. So I

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don't know, are fighting a lot
of mosquitoes? One of the two.

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Yeah. Well, thanks for joining
us. So let's just dive right in.

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Are you ready to get human?
Definitely. Awesome. All right.

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So let's just start with this.
Why is it important for

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organizations to build a healthy
team culture for developers?

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Dan Pupius: Yeah, well, I mean,
I think, I mean, culture can

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often seem like a fluffy word,
that's a nice to have supplied

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afterwards. But really, you have
a culture, whether you want it

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or not, and it's whether you're
intentional or not. And as

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organizations grow, things
change and issues, propagates.

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And if you're not careful, you
know, the culture can

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metastasize. And you can end up
with a situation where people

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don't feel respected, don't feel
safe, don't take risks, don't,

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you know, aren't creative and
communicate well with each

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other. So really, the goal of,
you know, a manager in an

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organization is to create a
culture where you can achieve

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your goals. And if you're a
modern organization, you need

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people to, you know, have
psychological safety, so they

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can take risks and grow as a,
you know, an individual, you

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know, hit their goals. And, you
know, that's why you should

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intentionally focus on building
culture.

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Jason Baum: Yeah, I guess when
people think of culture, they

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think of ability to work with
their peers, you know, how they,

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I guess, feelings, but I like
that. How you said it's to

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achieve goals, because I think
that's, that's an easier sell

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sometimes to write when you're
all focused on the same thing.

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Dan Pupius: Yeah, yeah, I think
there's a lot of these people,

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issues that are held up as yeah,
like I said, nice to have. But

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really, they're fundamental, and
they are tied to business goals.

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So once you can reframe them,
they become a lot easier to

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support, and much more concrete.
And it's not just about making

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people happy, for the sake of
being happy, like, being happy

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means you're engaged with your
work, you're more likely to be

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loyal and more likely to be
retained. And you will actually

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be more creative and you know,
and you know, better at your

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job. So there's, you know,
there's a symbiotic relationship

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between the needs for work and
the needs of an organization.

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And it doesn't, you know, we're
not living in factories anymore.

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We're not, you know, cogs in a
machine. We need people to be on

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the, you know, on the most
creative and most kind of

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inspirational selves and to do
that we need to create an

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environment where they can win
they can manifest that.

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Jason Baum: So why do companies
choose to not focus on building

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healthy team culture?

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Dan Pupius: I think the old
school would be seen as a nice

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to have that is not it's not
about the work and you know, we

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should focus on goals and like,
you know, these these entire I

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told engineers who wants, you
know, who want this and that,

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and, you know, just asking too
much. So I think that that's one

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thing. The second thing is, I
think fear or uncertainty, they

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don't really know what it means.
So they don't know what they're

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doing cuz they're not trained in
this, like, they're trained as

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engineers or managers or like
designers, they're not trained

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in organizational design, or
psychology or group behavior or

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group dynamics. So they just
don't know what they're doing.

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So saying, That's why people
would not would not do it, it's

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like, either, they don't believe
that actually has a positive

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effect on the business, or they
just don't know what to do.

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Jason Baum: Here, you bring up
culture, and someone's gonna be

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like, I'm not having a
conversation about a four day

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workweek, like, you know, like,
they go instantly to like, the

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the benefits and that, rather
than the actual core, talking

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about,

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Dan Pupius: there's a lot of
misunderstanding about what

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culture is the culture is that
whether you want it or not, it's

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the essentially the way you
behave, and you interact with

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each other. And one way to
measure culture or to observe

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culture is what you recognize
and reward. So if, if you think

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of like recognition as
attention, what you pay

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attention to is what you reward.
So if you only ever work for,

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like, you know, engineers, if
you only rewarding launches,

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that's what will define your
culture. And then people who are

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doing some of the other grungy
work keeping the systems running

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or fixing bugs or handling
security issues. They're not

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getting the attention, and
therefore, you know, that's, you

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know, it's out of sight out of
mind.

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Jason Baum: So, I mean, you just
touched on a couple, are there

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additional company culture
related issues that developers

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specifically are facing in 2022?

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Dan Pupius: Yeah, I mean, I
think definitely unique times.

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So you mentioned in the opening
around remote work in the

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pandemic. And so, mass, mass
rescue remote workers up ended,

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many people remote work wasn't
new, it's, you know, it's been

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going on for decades. And even
in the 2008, financial crisis,

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remote work really expanded. But
it wasn't, you know, 100% of the

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workforce, 100% of desk workers
weren't working remote, which is

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what we saw, kind of like last
year. So so. So, organizations

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now having to figure out how to
settle in the long term, instead

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of just, you know, surviving.
And that's like, causing huge

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changes. The other thing, which
you also mentioned, was like

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hybrid. So some people are
starting to go back to the

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office, but many people aren't.
And a lot of the survey suggests

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that a significant portion of
the population wants to stay

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remote, at least part time. What
this means is you have a

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bifurcated workforce, where some
people are in the office, some

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people are remote, and that
actually amplifies a lot of the

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issues that people are facing,
then I think the third issue is

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really about just the long term
effects of the pandemic. So

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people are feeling isolation,
fear, you know, anxiety, they

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sort through an all time high.
And that affects our ability to

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show up for work and the ability
to relate to people. So when

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you're thinking about what
healthy culture is, it's like,

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how do you support people when
family members are sick, or they

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don't have childcare? Or, you
know, they just like feeling

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really burnt out after two
months in a loft apartment, like

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I like I'm heading and and that
changes, like how we have to

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approach work.

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Jason Baum: Yeah, so work as
hard as it is, right? If you

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are, you're already focused on
on all these business goals. And

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now you have to focus on
individual personalities, and

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everyone is different, right?
That's what defines us as humans

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is we are all unique, and have
our unique issues. So how like,

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I mean, specifically for that
last last issue that you just

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named, the one that we all are
kind of facing, which is this,

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we all just kind of have been
through a major trauma. You

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know, by many, many people in
the mental health industry, I've

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been kind of flagging, as, hey,
this is this is a major trauma

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that we have all just suffered
not just one or two people. And

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then keeping people on task on
on focused on the on the goal at

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hand, but also providing a
stable work environment that is

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open and receptive to people's
issues, whatever they may be,

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that is an outcome of this.
Where Where did where where do

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you begin with that?

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Dan Pupius: Yeah, it's super
difficult. I think, ultimately,

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there's no one answer one silver
bullet. I think a good starting

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point is to focus on people's
needs. So like, how, what do

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people need in order to be
successful at work? And just

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talk to people to have
conversations, you know, where

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are they struggling? what's
working, what's not working,

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both on an individual level and
then a team level? And then you

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can, you can, you can go for
that. So some of the things

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we've been doing it range
reacting to this as, like, we

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make sure that we have one extra
day off every month. So like the

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whole company shut down. So this
isn't just encouraging people to

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take vacation. That means that
everyone's offline, so you know,

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there's no email, there's no
slack to catch up on. And that

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really helps people switch off
for a long weekend. We've also

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laid in, you know, a new set of
benefits including, you know,

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therapy support and stipends for
make your home office a little

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bit nicer, just to make the
environment feel like it's

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changing, so it doesn't feel so
static. And then we also just

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think about, you know, how
people work. So what type of

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projects are suitable for
someone's mindset at a certain

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point in time, if they're really
struggling, you probably don't

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want to put them on a really
Greenfield app, you know, you

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know, abstract projects, you
want to give them some more like

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concrete work streams, where
they can just like churn through

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tasks and feel a sense of
accomplishment. And then when

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they have, you know, some wins
under the belt, maybe you can

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give them some things that are
more, you know, more, kind of

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more creative and more, more
like, you know, Greenfield?

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Jason Baum: Great. Yeah, and I
wanted to talk about windowed

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work, because this is something
that I have not heard of before.

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But as a term that when we, we
were chatting, you threw that

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word out. So I would like to
dive into that a little bit

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more. And what are these
benefits? These other therapy

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benefits such as windowed work?

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Dan Pupius: Yeah, yeah, I mean,
window work is, is pretty

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straightforward, really. And I'm
sure it makes sense to you. So

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the old way of working was that
you'd be in a factory or at a

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desk nine to five. And if you
weren't at your desk, you

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weren't working. And there's a
bunch of reasons why that's bad

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in the modern day. So the first
reason that's bad is that many

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people have logistical needs,
such as childcare, eldercare

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health things, you know, that
don't mean that they can be at a

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desk nine to five. The second
thing is that when they are

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sitting at a desk, nine to five,
they're not actually working

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100% utilized, like we do
creative work. And if you think

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you can sit at a desk eight
hours and be productive for

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eight hours, like you're kidding
yourself. So it's important to

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have breaks and take off. And
then the third thing is that

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different people actually have
different energy cycles. So you

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might have heard of like, are
you an owl? Or are you a lark,

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and this actually maps to your
ability to have different types

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of cognitive function, the
different types of the day to

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what you're good at in the
morning, might be very different

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from what I'm good at the
morning. And like, I might

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actually be better doing that
type of thing eight o'clock at

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night, because I'm more of an
owl. So So having this nine to

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five, work schedule that, you
know, that is uniform for

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everyone just doesn't make
sense. In in knowledge work, it

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was designed for factories. So
the idea of windowed work is

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very simple. It's essentially to
break up the workweek into

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Windows. So instead of it being
nine to five, five days a week,

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you can structure a schedule
that works for you, both your

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energy and also your logistical
needs. So if you want to do a

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really early morning and do two
hours, five to seven at home,

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then go off to the gym for a few
hours, and then like work in the

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afternoon, in the evening, you
know, we should be able to

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accommodate that from from a
work schedule. If I have

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childcare needs on Wednesday
morning, I can find that my

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calendar is like a yellow zone.
So I'm available for

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emergencies, but mostly not not
available. That's like my

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childcare window. So really,
it's just about fragmenting and

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fragmenting the workweek to
better suit you. So you can

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actually, you know, have better
work life integration, and then

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be, you know, be more productive
as well.

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Jason Baum: I love that concept.
It is true. And like the thing I

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noticed when moving to working
remote, I was remote for a year

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before the pandemic is that you
get so much more work done. At

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home, I find some people do,
some people don't. But I found

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that I was much more focused at
tasks, because you'll have

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people knocking on your door
coming in and doing whatever you

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know, going to get coffee and
you get stopped, you know, in

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the hallway. So when you start
adding up all those hours, you

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realize how many hours you
weren't working at work when

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you're there for nine to five.
So then all that time it goes

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into the task and take a shorter
amount of time.

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Dan Pupius: Well, that period in
the early afternoon, between one

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and three where you kind of just
stare at your computer and

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everything goes really slowly.
Like why not just step away, go

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for a run or you know, go to a
park and just accept that you're

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not gonna make you're not gonna
be productive during that time.

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So, but you're going to be more
productive in the evening

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because that's when your brain
comes online.

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Jason Baum: Yeah, I'm so glad
I'm wasn't the only one that was

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just staring at my computer from
one to three. Yeah, no 100% And

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now with you know, because kids
were home from school, and you

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know, now many are back but I
think in many ways life was

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disrupted, but it helped us to
prioritize. And I from a

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business perspective, I'm
wondering like, you know, how

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goal setting plays into that
when you have this windowed

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work, I think of teachers out
you know, with with with school,

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it's almost like teachers hours,
when you can go find your, you

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know, office hours or whatever,
and kind of need to have

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something when you can all
collaborate at once, you know,

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when everyone's on at the same
time. But

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Dan Pupius: yeah, I think that I
think a lot of the resistance

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this level of flexibility is
rooted in the lack of trust that

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People are motivated to do the
work that you hired them to do.

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And that seems like a bigger
problem to me, then, you know,

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forcing a nine to five at the
desk. So if you if you decouple

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the flexibility from the
motivation, and then

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accountability as well. Like you
hold people accountable for the

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work they're meant to do, and
the outcomes are meant to drive

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you motivate them by helping
them have a sense of purpose,

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mastery and connection with the
team and the company. And then

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you and then you use that as a
foundation for building these

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flexible work work situations.
And then, once you have this

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flexible work situations, you
realize that people aren't

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always going to be available to
respond to Slack nine to five.

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So how do you set up the
communication protocols that

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support that? So we think about
this in terms of like cadence

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and rituals? And and how do you
support you know, a lot of

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asynchronous communication that
is more of a like a Pub Sub

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model, where in the morning, I
check in, and it doesn't need to

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be synchronously at the same
time that you check in. Like, if

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I check in at 911, it doesn't
matter, but the information gets

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shared. And we just remove the
urgency from a lot of the

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communication because a lot of
the time, we don't need an

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instant response. We don't need
this to be like synchronously

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online, and AdMob. Back in 2006,
I was working with teams in

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Zurich, and Japan and like,
there's no way we could always

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get on line at the same time. So
we had to figure out ways of

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working. So really, it's just
using those those principles,

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but applying it to people who
may actually just live down the

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road from you,

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Jason Baum: too. Today's episode
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after trial activation. And that
that initial culture, right

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00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:45,600
that, I think is Many businesses
have still it's it's a culture

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of mistrust, rather than a
culture of trust. Right. And

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00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,390
yeah, I think that's what you're
talking about a little bit.

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Dan Pupius: Right? Yeah,
definitely. Yeah, the phrase

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like a high trust environment
and a high trust environment is,

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is how you get people to do
their best work because they

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feel much more connected to the,
to the purpose of their work,

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and the, you know, they feel
much more ownership or when

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there's a lack of trust, people
don't take risks, they, they

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worry about making mistakes,
they worry about asking

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questions. And that's just going
to inhibit a lot of their

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ability to be creative, to
collaborate to give feedback,

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and then you end up with
problems that many people have

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heard of like groupthink, or,
you know, like, autocratic

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decision making all these
problems that emerged in

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organizations can be rooted in
this lack of trust and safety.

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Jason Baum: What are some
additional things that you do to

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have a culture of trust? I'd be
curious to know.

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Dan Pupius: Yeah, so I think a
mental model I really like is

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from Daniel coils culture code,
which is he has a progression.

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So psychological safety is
really well understood now,

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thanks to Google. But you know,
it dates back to the 60s in

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terms of the research. So Google
popularized it, but people still

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find it a relatively abstract
concept, though, Daniel Cole

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00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:04,380
breaks it down, which is that
psychological psychological

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00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:09,450
safety requires belonging, a
sense of belonging, belonging

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requires trust and interest
requires vulnerability. So you

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often think that you have to
have trust in order to be

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vulnerable, but it's actually
the other way around, you have

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00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,280
to exhibit vulnerability in
order to gain trust. And this

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goes to some pretty basic you
know, psychological behaviors

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such as, like smiling or like
showing someone some like body

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language, which we're, you know,
we're not enemies, we're on the

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same side, like things like
handshakes and all these like

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micro cues, to create the sense
of like that listen to like,

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micro vulnerability moments that
leads to trust and and

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belonging. There in the remote
world where you don't see people

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in the elevator and the coffee
in the coffee kitchen. There's

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not as much opportunity for
these belonging cues, as they're

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called so plushy much harder to
build trust. So so we think

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about that as like the
foundation and how do we create

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these Moments of vulnerability.
And that might be playing games

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or having silly check ins where
we share, share images of what

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we did over the weekend, or we
have, you know, fun and play is

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actually a really good way of
having very low stakes

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vulnerability, like it requires
vulnerability to laugh and play

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a game. But, and that's like a
good way of building culture.

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But you know, it's just all
these touch points throughout

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the weekend throughout the month
that we think about. And then

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we've even done silly things
like we did like a spirit week,

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which required a lot of
vulnerability and silliness. And

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that's, you know, that's how you
build that foundation. And then

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on top of that, people, then you
find ones, they have

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psychological safety, they take
risks, they speak, speak up,

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they push back on, you know,
executive decision making, like,

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I love that like being CEO that
people once people question me

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like, but that's not that's not
a given.

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Jason Baum: Yeah, yeah. No,
that's, that's great. Something

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else that you had mentioned was
the mind was mind mapping, mind

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mapping tools and mood mapping?
Or I'm sorry, mood mood mapping?

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Yeah. And I would love to learn
a little bit more about that,

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and what how you're using that?

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Dan Pupius: Yeah. So the range
products are essentially an

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asynchronous checking tool at
the core, which is kind of like

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a virtual standup. And so in the
same way that individual standup

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you share, what you did, what
you're planning, and then

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anything that's blocked. You
know, we do all that

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asynchronously. But what we've
also added is these, these sort

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of cultural check ins, and one
component is the mood. So it

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00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,290
might sound silly, but you
select the traffic light, red,

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yellow, green, and then an emoji
that represents your mood. So

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today, I was like a green
cowboy. But yesterday, I was

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like yellow sleepy. And this is
important for a couple of

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reasons. One, it's like a moment
of like, introspection of like,

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how am I actually showing up to
work today. And that actually is

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a powerful moment in itself. But
then also sharing it with the

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team is good context. So when
you remote, you have no idea

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00:21:55,830 --> 00:22:00,060
like how, how I am, right, and
you have all these like little

388
00:22:00,060 --> 00:22:04,200
hints through slack and email,
or GitHub reviews. And you'll

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00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,810
start writing stories like is
Dan pissed off with me is done

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00:22:06,810 --> 00:22:09,990
upset, or is down being aloof.
And if you just know that I

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00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,850
literally haven't slept last
night because my daughter was

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00:22:11,850 --> 00:22:15,690
up. And I have this yellow,
these emoji that'll like calm a

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00:22:15,690 --> 00:22:18,690
lot of your anxieties. So that's
the mood, the mood sharing in

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the moment. And then what we can
do is we in at all that we have

395
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:26,850
the mood history. So you can see
the aggregate moves for the team

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00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,570
over time. And this just helps
you understand, like how people

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00:22:30,570 --> 00:22:33,180
are faring, and especially in
the pandemic, there's been a lot

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00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:36,570
more yellow and red than there
was previously. And and then we

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00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:39,630
just use that as a signal of
like, do we need to change

400
00:22:39,630 --> 00:22:45,510
timelines? Do we need to, you
know, rebalance work, or, you

401
00:22:45,510 --> 00:22:48,960
know, spend some extra time
thinking about, like recovery

402
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,550
and repair, or like, it probably
like progressed for extended

403
00:22:53,550 --> 00:22:55,710
period of time, and we, you
know, ask fundamental questions

404
00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:58,470
about what we're doing to
support the team and ensure that

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people are able to show up to
work as a full selves.

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00:23:03,330 --> 00:23:05,550
Jason Baum: I love that. It's
like the DevOps principle, you

407
00:23:05,550 --> 00:23:08,550
know, like continuous feedback.
You know, having that feedback

408
00:23:08,550 --> 00:23:13,530
loop is so, so important. I
mean, it's so interesting. So

409
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:18,510
you, like your, your name shows
up with a mood next, like, how

410
00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:20,670
do people see your mood? Like,
how do they know that Dan is

411
00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:24,120
feeling yellow today? By the
way, I'm so totally stealing

412
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:26,730
this, we have we have to do we
have to? Can we we have to

413
00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:28,410
collaborate offline about how we
can do this.

414
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,320
Dan Pupius: I mean, he's right.
So yeah, when you

415
00:23:31,650 --> 00:23:33,720
Jason Baum: know, I would love
to use range. So we will have to

416
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:34,860
talk about how.

417
00:23:36,270 --> 00:23:38,880
Dan Pupius: And then every time
everywhere that check in shows

418
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,940
up, whether it be in Slack or
email, like you see the person's

419
00:23:41,940 --> 00:23:45,930
mood. And then also the avatar
in meetings is has a yellow

420
00:23:45,930 --> 00:23:50,340
ring, which can, it can be
mildly stressful, but also, it's

421
00:23:50,340 --> 00:23:55,530
helpful, because it's not
masking reality. So it gives you

422
00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:58,050
something to talk about this
abstract. So instead of, hey,

423
00:23:58,050 --> 00:24:01,860
you seem stressed today. It's
like, Hey, I noticed you checked

424
00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:05,250
in with the lat yellow emoji
like how are you doing? And it D

425
00:24:05,250 --> 00:24:07,980
personalizes it a little bit.
Whereas it's really hard to talk

426
00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:10,230
about someone that's like, you
seem really aggro?

427
00:24:10,889 --> 00:24:13,829
Jason Baum: Do you find that
people have a hard time

428
00:24:13,829 --> 00:24:15,689
initially getting used to it?

429
00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:19,800
Dan Pupius: Um, surprisingly
not. And what we found is it's

430
00:24:19,890 --> 00:24:23,850
like the vulnerability is
contagious. So I'm actually

431
00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:29,730
surprised that people check in
so openly, like around 10% of

432
00:24:29,730 --> 00:24:32,520
users check in red every day.
Just kind of interesting. Wow.

433
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:38,850
But But yeah, I think a lot of
people think that, that so we

434
00:24:38,850 --> 00:24:41,490
have the three colors, but then
we also have the emojis which

435
00:24:41,490 --> 00:24:44,400
allows like some resolution and
some differences. So like the

436
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,370
difference between like a
sunglasses emoji and a greeting

437
00:24:47,370 --> 00:24:50,670
emoji, you know, it has like
flavor. And so it makes it kind

438
00:24:50,670 --> 00:24:54,690
of like a fun exercise, as well.
So it definitely doesn't feel

439
00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:57,270
like surveillance or oversights.
It's, it's very much about

440
00:24:57,270 --> 00:25:00,150
showing with your team. You know
the reality of you Your

441
00:25:00,150 --> 00:25:00,960
experience today?

442
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,790
Jason Baum: So do you ever do
anything with that, you know, to

443
00:25:05,790 --> 00:25:10,590
steer maybe some experiences
that you offer the team. So if

444
00:25:10,590 --> 00:25:13,950
you're getting like 25% Read,
you're like, hold on, we need to

445
00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:17,340
do early happy hour or something
we need to do something to,

446
00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:19,470
although maybe you don't want to
do early happy hour if

447
00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:22,560
everybody's read. But yeah,
like, what do you what do you do

448
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,220
with that?

449
00:25:24,150 --> 00:25:26,310
Dan Pupius: Yeah, we've, we've
never had to have a major

450
00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:30,660
intervention like that. But we
definitely think about, like, is

451
00:25:30,660 --> 00:25:34,320
the pacing too hard, like if a
project is pacing really fast,

452
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,330
and as the launch is pushing up,
and everyone's running yellow,

453
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,840
like just being intentional
about that, and you probably

454
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,610
haven't, even without the mood
mapping, you probably have a

455
00:25:41,610 --> 00:25:44,940
sense that that's going on. But
the yellow makes it very

456
00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:48,060
explicit. And it kind of
encourages you to take action.

457
00:25:48,270 --> 00:25:50,370
So then it's so you start
talking about it. So like, I

458
00:25:50,370 --> 00:25:52,470
know, everyone's pushing really
hard this, I really appreciate

459
00:25:52,470 --> 00:25:54,690
all your work, it's really
important. And this makes sure

460
00:25:54,690 --> 00:25:58,200
to take a break when you know,
after after launch day. If

461
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,150
individuals are read, we
sometimes encourage them to drop

462
00:26:03,150 --> 00:26:07,620
down to a four day week, using
the vacation to have like some

463
00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:10,380
recovery time. So it definitely
allows you to create

464
00:26:10,380 --> 00:26:13,710
interventions, which I think
then basically head off burnout,

465
00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:16,740
before it gets too bad. Because
you have these various stages of

466
00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:19,470
burnout. And if you let it get
too bad, it's almost

467
00:26:19,470 --> 00:26:22,470
unrecoverable. So if we can get
these early warning signs, I

468
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:23,520
think that can be really
valuable.

469
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:30,209
Jason Baum: I love it, because
what it does is I'm assuming you

470
00:26:30,209 --> 00:26:33,929
have kids based on what you were
saying about childcare. Yeah, so

471
00:26:33,929 --> 00:26:39,299
yeah. So so you're nodding and
and don't you I wish my child

472
00:26:39,299 --> 00:26:43,769
came with one of those where we
can move map mood mapper, it

473
00:26:43,769 --> 00:26:47,069
would certainly make my life
easier. But I think hers too,

474
00:26:47,069 --> 00:26:51,719
because it would be, you know,
acknowledging is such is

475
00:26:51,749 --> 00:26:54,959
sometimes the biggest piece of
it is just acknowledging that

476
00:26:54,959 --> 00:26:57,869
you feel this way. You don't
have to change it. No one's like

477
00:26:57,869 --> 00:27:03,359
forcing you to change it. But
just I am yellow today. Everyone

478
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,089
knows about it now. And we can
address it if we need to address

479
00:27:06,089 --> 00:27:07,739
it, or we don't have to address
it if we don't.

480
00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:11,220
Dan Pupius: Yeah, totally. So my
daughter, my eldest daughter

481
00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:16,770
uses green, yellow, red, blue,
some signs of emotional

482
00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:18,810
regulation that comes from her
school. And it gives you a

483
00:27:18,810 --> 00:27:21,570
language and a vocabulary to
talk about it. That's non

484
00:27:21,570 --> 00:27:24,960
judgmental. So I think what's
interesting with them all the

485
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,680
list read is both. It basically
means out of control, which can

486
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,070
be out of control negative or
out of control positive. So it

487
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:34,170
doesn't have any judgment in the
color. It's just about like how

488
00:27:34,170 --> 00:27:37,170
much control you have,
essentially. And then blue is

489
00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:42,180
sad and sad or slow or sleepy.
But we are we use that with her

490
00:27:42,210 --> 00:27:44,820
every evening actually, like we
have a it's kind of funny, we

491
00:27:44,820 --> 00:27:48,540
have like a check in a bad time.
Like, how are you feeling like,

492
00:27:48,660 --> 00:27:51,090
and then we have, you know, we
can talk about it. And it's just

493
00:27:51,090 --> 00:27:54,510
like a really nice way of
talking about emotions in a non

494
00:27:54,510 --> 00:27:57,060
judgmental way that doesn't
label them as like stigmas. But

495
00:27:57,060 --> 00:27:59,820
it's just it's like things you
can observe and discuss.

496
00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:02,820
Jason Baum: I love that. I think
I would be blue every day

497
00:28:02,820 --> 00:28:06,360
though, because I'm at least
slower sleepy. I think the

498
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:08,370
majority of the time. At least.

499
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:12,300
Dan Pupius: I'm 90 simpler when
we do the check in for sure.

500
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:13,500
Yeah, sorry.

501
00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:16,350
Jason Baum: I think that's a
panda. I think pandemic has

502
00:28:16,350 --> 00:28:19,800
definitely made it worse too.
But yeah, putting on clothes

503
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,810
these days, you know, it's life
is a struggle. I really

504
00:28:24,810 --> 00:28:27,150
appreciate it. And this has been
eye opening. And I want to

505
00:28:27,150 --> 00:28:29,970
continue to talk to you about
range, because I'm definitely

506
00:28:29,970 --> 00:28:34,290
interested, especially in the in
mood mapping. I feel like we

507
00:28:34,290 --> 00:28:37,740
could talk about that all day. I
think it's fascinating. And

508
00:28:37,740 --> 00:28:42,180
companies need to use this.
Because it's it's just

509
00:28:42,180 --> 00:28:46,680
understanding getting a pulse
check of how people feel, is

510
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,160
definitely the missing piece. I
think nobody's really asking

511
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,800
that. They say they want a
positive culture. They don't

512
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,420
really talk about how you're
feeling, though.

513
00:28:55,349 --> 00:28:58,019
Dan Pupius: Yeah, I think so
that's another thing about goes

514
00:28:58,019 --> 00:28:59,969
back getting back to culture.
It's like what you talked about

515
00:28:59,999 --> 00:29:02,099
and what you acknowledge, is
that how you define your

516
00:29:02,099 --> 00:29:05,729
culture. So if you are
transparent and open and

517
00:29:05,729 --> 00:29:08,759
actually honest, that's the
culture you will create an if

518
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:13,319
you're reserved, and, you know,
we don't talk about certain

519
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:17,279
things. That's also the cultural
craze. And that will like eat

520
00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:18,239
you alive eventually.

521
00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:20,670
Jason Baum: Yeah, well, you're
taking a proactive approach by

522
00:29:20,670 --> 00:29:23,250
using this, which is great,
rather than being reactive,

523
00:29:23,250 --> 00:29:27,990
which is an I don't think
anybody wants to be reactive. So

524
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:30,840
that's, or maybe some find it
easier. But yeah, I don't think

525
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,720
you want to be reactive towards
this. Okay.

526
00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:36,690
Dan Pupius: I mean, just just
one final comment, like, it

527
00:29:36,690 --> 00:29:39,150
takes vulnerability to be
proactive. It's much easier to

528
00:29:39,150 --> 00:29:44,370
be reactive, and, you know, you
have to take risk.

529
00:29:45,540 --> 00:29:48,960
Jason Baum: So, yeah, we had a
whole podcast on productive

530
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,680
honesty. And I think in in many
respects, this is the company

531
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,100
being proactively honest and
encouraging proactive honesty

532
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:58,560
from employees, and it's like,
Wow, imagine a world where we

533
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,730
can all just be adult adults
have a hard time with with this

534
00:30:02,730 --> 00:30:05,400
though so I shouldn't even say
it that way but this is like the

535
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,370
fact that you're that you work
on that with with your with your

536
00:30:08,370 --> 00:30:11,970
daughter you know and and we do
the same with our daughter my

537
00:30:11,970 --> 00:30:16,110
wife and I not we haven't used
the colors I need to introduce

538
00:30:16,110 --> 00:30:20,610
the colors this is great. But we
don't do it enough. I think as

539
00:30:20,610 --> 00:30:26,160
adults sharing like our moods
even just just the basic concept

540
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,160
of that starts that conversation
and allows for proactive

541
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,790
honesty. Well, okay, so I want
to bring it back to the jungle

542
00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:35,700
real quick because we always
close the show on something a

543
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:40,230
little more personal but you you
already shared first of all that

544
00:30:40,230 --> 00:30:44,940
you you race, snowboards. So
you're just not You're not just

545
00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:46,620
snowboarding but you also race.

546
00:30:47,189 --> 00:30:49,499
Dan Pupius: I used to Yeah, I
was. I wasn't University race

547
00:30:49,499 --> 00:30:50,789
team. That's awesome.

548
00:30:50,850 --> 00:30:54,570
Jason Baum: Okay, I've I can't
even balance someone. You jump

549
00:30:54,570 --> 00:30:58,200
out of planes. That's something
you've always wanted to do, too.

550
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,040
Dan Pupius: I skydive for a
while before kids so did around

551
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,750
100 jumps, which was not a lot
by like, I skydiver standards.

552
00:31:06,780 --> 00:31:10,020
It's like you either do 1000
jumps, or like two. So I did. I

553
00:31:10,020 --> 00:31:10,710
did about 100

554
00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:14,400
Jason Baum: I'm on the I always
wanted to. And I think I'm just

555
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,300
gonna say that through. Maybe
when I'm at I'll do it. George

556
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,790
George Herbert Walker is it when
he was like 80

557
00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:24,090
Dan Pupius: I find it really
relaxing. It's like so so Zen's

558
00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:25,110
being up there. It's amazing.

559
00:31:25,710 --> 00:31:29,430
Jason Baum: It's really the part
before it can't be relaxing.

560
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:32,610
That can't be there's no way
that can be relaxing. It's it's

561
00:31:32,610 --> 00:31:34,320
while you're in flight, right?

562
00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:36,990
Dan Pupius: The night before and
then the bit after, when you

563
00:31:36,990 --> 00:31:39,270
pull the parachute not relaxing,
but the bit in the middle of a

564
00:31:39,270 --> 00:31:40,170
relaxing once the

565
00:31:40,169 --> 00:31:42,089
Jason Baum: parachutes pulled.
And you know, you're you're

566
00:31:42,089 --> 00:31:46,349
coming down, and it's okay. Now
we're now we can relax.

567
00:31:46,980 --> 00:31:48,930
Dan Pupius: But that's the most
dangerous part. Most people

568
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:54,060
injured themselves into fully
open canopy. Really? Yeah,

569
00:31:54,270 --> 00:31:56,340
because he's still approaching
the ground at say 35 miles an

570
00:31:56,340 --> 00:31:59,520
hour, and then low turns.
Anyway, it's the time you're

571
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,890
closest to the ground as well.
So that's why it's most risky.

572
00:32:02,490 --> 00:32:04,320
Jason Baum: See, now I can't
even do it. Because now I'm

573
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,200
going to be thinking, Well, Dan
said that I'm not in the clear

574
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,730
just yet. And then you live in
the jungle, which you You start

575
00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:15,180
off by saying wasn't that it
that it sounds more interesting,

576
00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:16,530
but I want to hear about it.

577
00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:19,680
Dan Pupius: Yeah, I worked for
an organization called Operation

578
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:24,840
Wallacea who do biodiversity
studies and social engagements

579
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,100
around the world. And I worked
in Honduras. So I helped run the

580
00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:32,250
base camp where we had a bunch
of scientists and dissertation

581
00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:34,980
students out there doing
research. So I made sure people

582
00:32:34,980 --> 00:32:37,440
had guides to take him into the
jungle that we had food that

583
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,770
accommodation, that they were
like that if there's medical

584
00:32:40,770 --> 00:32:43,830
evacuation, we had to do the
medical evacuation. And it's

585
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:46,530
like, yeah, three months living
in this clearing in the jungle.

586
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:51,330
Jason Baum: And in in Honduras,
Honduras jungle. Wow, that's

587
00:32:52,050 --> 00:32:54,900
okay. What wildlife did you
encounter anything cool?

588
00:32:55,589 --> 00:32:58,079
Dan Pupius: Unfortunately, I
mean, not by the camp, at least.

589
00:32:58,499 --> 00:33:01,319
They're mostly birds. There were
people trying to trap large,

590
00:33:01,469 --> 00:33:05,429
large mammals, but with limited
success, so it's mostly things

591
00:33:05,429 --> 00:33:08,069
like bats and insects and
snakes.

592
00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:14,250
Jason Baum: Stay white. Yeah.
Cool. Well, yeah. So it wasn't

593
00:33:14,250 --> 00:33:16,680
the Jungle Book. I don't know.
In my head. I'll still think of

594
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,280
it. You know, like you were
talking to a bear. And I don't

595
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,700
know what else to do in the
jungle. Well, that's great.

596
00:33:24,060 --> 00:33:27,150
Well, thank you so much for
coming on the show. It was a lot

597
00:33:27,150 --> 00:33:31,500
of fun talking culture and
talking, windowed work and mood

598
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:34,110
mapping. And I definitely want
to continue the conversation. I

599
00:33:34,110 --> 00:33:37,440
want to learn more about range.
Why don't you tell everyone

600
00:33:37,470 --> 00:33:42,930
where they can find range? And,
and, and anything else that you

601
00:33:42,930 --> 00:33:43,590
want to share?

602
00:33:44,490 --> 00:33:46,200
Dan Pupius: Yeah, yeah. Thanks
for having us on. That was

603
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,870
really fun. Yeah, you can find
out about range at dub dub

604
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:53,550
dub.range.co. And, yeah, we're
happy to offer listeners a

605
00:33:53,550 --> 00:33:58,050
discount or free trial. Yes, we
can configure that after it's

606
00:33:58,050 --> 00:33:58,380
maybe.

607
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,860
Jason Baum: Awesome. Well, thank
you so much for coming on. And

608
00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:04,470
thank you for listening to this
episode of the humans of DevOps

609
00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:07,860
Podcast. I'm going to end this
episode the same way I always do

610
00:34:07,860 --> 00:34:10,770
encourage you to become a member
of DevOps Institute to get

611
00:34:10,770 --> 00:34:13,590
access to even more great
resources just like this one.

612
00:34:13,950 --> 00:34:17,400
Until next time, stay safe, stay
healthy. And most of all, stay

613
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,170
human, live long and prosper.

614
00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:23,610
Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the humans of

615
00:34:23,610 --> 00:34:27,180
DevOps podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

616
00:34:27,180 --> 00:34:30,510
access to even more great
resources like this. Until next

617
00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:33,960
time, remember, you are part of
something bigger than yourself.

618
00:34:34,290 --> 00:34:35,010
You belong