Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework.
Mason Mclead: Like this is very much a team effort kind of
domain that we're in and measuring at the individual.
It's just the wrong place to measure. You're going to measure
at a higher level, like what is the overall input and the
overall output? And how is that affecting your consumers?
Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member
experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps
podcast. Welcome back. Hope you had a great week, last week.
This week, we have another great episode planned for you, we're
going to dive in to what engineering origin orgs need to
know in order to attract, retain and ensure the highest levels of
productivity from their DevOps teams. This is a big topic, I
think, is really relevant. I know. At some point, during the
conversation, we're going to get into the great resignation,
something that's very topical going on right now. And so much
more. And with me to discuss this topic, is our guest, Mason
McLean. And Mason is the CTO of software comm a DevOps matrix
platform that helps teams measure and improve their
organization's DevOps performance. He leads the design
and development of the company's technology platforms and
products, which collect data across the stack, analyze over
20 million daily events from its community of over 250,000
developers, and create valuable metrics and insights for
engineering teams. Mason is here with me right now. And we're
really happy to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for
joining us.
Mason Mclead: Thanks, Jason. I'm looking forward to this
conversation. I think we got a lot to talk about.
Jason Baum: Awesome. Yeah, I agree. And so with that, are you
ready to get human?
Mason Mclead: Let's do it. Awesome.
Jason Baum: So let's just go right into, you know, how is
DevOps productivity measured?
Mason Mclead: Yeah, I mean, it, it is kind of interesting that,
you know, the way that I see DevOps is, its purpose is really
to make the systems and the developers more productive. So
when we say that we're measuring DevOps, productivity, we're like
measuring the productivity of people making productivity. So,
so I think it's kind of silly to say in a sentence, but when you
think about it, if your people that are working for you, there,
their job is to make other people's work better, if their
work is better, you get a multiplier effect on it. So
we're kind of measuring an even an even more important level of
productivity for these DevOps systems and the people that put
them into place, as well as their their end result of having
a well running system that, you know, in to get on the human
side of it, that's not frustrating for people to work
in, that isn't holding people back, as developers put a lot of
time and effort and DevOps engineers as well into what they
build, and putting it into then a pipeline to get it out to
production, that just is all starts and stops and is
frustrating and takes a long time. Like, it's a really easy
way to make people frustrated and less satisfied. So when
we're measuring DevOps productivity, we're measuring
the productivity of all of that. And, you know, the approach that
that we've taken, is really to measure at the system level. So
there's a concept called Value Stream Mapping, it comes from
manufacturing and other places, you know, historically, but it's
been applied to development and DevOps much more recently. And,
you know, the main concept to come out of that is you measure
as close to the customer at the beginning as you can, and as
close to the customer at the end, as you can. So when did a
request come in? And then when was that request fulfilled? And
when did the customer actually see it and get their hands on
it? And so by measuring the time between those two things, you
got your overall lead time. You can see how productive that that
isn't in that terms. And then you can cut it into the main
pieces of what it takes to create whatever the the feature
is, or refine whatever it is. Put it into review. How's your
team jumping on to that if you're doing photo request
reviews? How quickly does it go through tests? Are they failing
often does it take a long time to get through that stage? What
is your pipeline look like to get to production and how long
does that take and another manual steps, how often are
people doing it, you have a schedule, all those things, you
can start to piece together into this big map of what it takes to
get something from beginning to end. And the customer then has
what they've asked for. And you know, they've got internal
customers, of course, in a company, you've got the the
final, external customer. So all those things can get measured in
that way. And that's the view that we look at there. And I
think that it's an important distinction to look at it from
the customer's point of view, versus what I see a lot of
people fall into the trap of is stack ranking your engineers and
saying, This person made this many pull requests in two days
versus this many pull requests this, and we've got this like
eternal stack rank, whose only purpose that I've seen is to,
like devalue people at the bottom. And, and really give a
very, in incomplete story to what's going on in your team. So
we avoid anything like that, completely. In our product,
there is no individual data that you can see about an individual
as a manager as another team member, you can see yours, but
the team sees theirs. And that's the line that we draw there.
Jason Baum: So it's all in one, it's how is your team
performing?
Mason Mclead: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's extremely rare, I
think, for an individual to make massive product contributions at
a bigger, even if you've got a few people on your team, like
this is very much a team effort, kind of domain that we're in and
measuring at the individual level, misses, context, misses
communication, it misses, if you're pair programming, it
misses all these sorts of things that go into development. And so
it's just the wrong place to measure. You gotta measure at a
higher level, like, what is the overall input and the overall
output? And how is that affecting your consumers?
Jason Baum: Yeah, and we'll, we'll come back to that. Because
I have a lot of feelings about that and an experience. And not
just, you know, we look at customer experience, we spent so
much time on customer experience where we think, and the
collective we lack is employee experience. And I think that's
why we're seeing what is happening right now, in the job
market. So let's go back to productivity, though. And just
to address so when you see low levels of productivity, so you
know, you're measuring the team, you're seeing low levels of
productivity, what does that mean? Is that when you start
isolating individuals, how do you how do you what does it
mean? And how do you address it? Yeah,
Mason Mclead: so you know, it. The interesting thing that, that
comes about, when you start measuring these things, is when
you see your actual numbers, the, what it means to you, and
like how impactful it is, is, is very different than when you
kind of think about what you're going to measure. And so for
example, we had a period a couple of months ago, where our
time to get pieces of work into merged into the main branch was
shooting up like really, really fast. And, you know, we realized
that people reviewing, like, we looked at that there was no
delay there, there was no lack of work coming in to the this
process. And people were working, it was effective, we
knew what we were working on. So it wasn't like a product
management sort of issue, or prioritization, we found that,
you know, this was on our data pipeline, we didn't have a very
good way to test. And so what we did is we kind of paused what
we're doing there, we built a staging environment. For our
data pipelines, which is not that common. It's kind of, I
think data is at a moment where it's becoming more software
engineering than traditional data analytics. And us being a
data product, it's, you know, very much what we do. So, you
know, what we found is that low level of productivity as you can
measure it, kind of from the end to end results there was due to
us not having the right system in place to address quality
concerns and, and making, you know, the team really wanted to
make sure that it was correct when it hit production, which I
agree with, so I was very happy that they were doing that and
you know, they were just missing a tool. So we put that in place,
and now it's you know, smoothed out and and that issue was
resolved. So that's what I look for. Whenever I see low
productivity coming through a system, usually there's
something wrong with that system. Now on the case that you
brought up, like, is it individual? Like, when do you
start looking into that? Right? I think that's where you, as a
manager, probably already know, like, if that's your first
inclination, you probably already have a name in mind, of
who that probably is. And then it comes in, you know, you, you
pick it up during stand ups, you pick it up during check ins, or
you know, weekly project reviews, stuff like that. You
know, that's the management side of it, and the human side of it,
that is different than measuring systems. And I think, you know,
I haven't seen yet a good measurement that can isolate
that type of performance, those kind of like individual
performance issues in a way that doesn't, you know, suffer from
getting mixed signals from just other types of behaviors that
goes on in your organization. So I would say, you, I mean, people
can people do measure individual performance, I would suggest to
never do that at this point. And, you know, that's where the
human part of being a manager or being a people manager comes in.
I've had this, you know, several times over my career were, in
one time, when I years ago, I brought in a system that did
actually stack rank everyone, because I already knew that this
person wasn't a good fit, and that they could do better
elsewhere. But I needed like I was, I was newer into
management, I wasn't feeling confident in my decision with
that. So I brought in a tool to tell me what I already knew. And
then, like, I, you know, so I had it there. And then I, you
know, had the human conversation and everything was much better
after we had that conversation, and found that person a new
place. And they're doing great, by the way, and great. Yeah,
they move to a different state, and they like a manager
somewhere else they're doing, they're doing awesome. But that
that system that was in place, I told the rest of the team that I
had it, and within a month, they revolted like it was gone. So I
think,
Jason Baum: did you see a productivity issue with that
when when you brought that in?
Mason Mclead: You know, it didn't affect productivity,
because I think the whole team was very dedicated already. And
there was nothing wrong, what that what that kind of tool told
me was, the people that I already knew were amazing, are
amazing. And the one person that I knew wasn't a good fit wasn't
a good fit. So that's the
Jason Baum: problem with tools, right? Yeah. Especially when it
comes to a human issue, because it is hard. You know, some
things just can't be put into an algorithm, Some things just
can't be. And culture. I think there's a lot of things out
there that try and a lot of things to do. So that do it.
Well, depending on what it is. We spoke to Dan papayas, who's
the CEO of range a few weeks ago, and range is actually a
great product, I actually started introducing it in my
team just to test it out. And not to talk too much about that.
But I'll just say there's something to it, because it's
about like, what they do that's different is mood mapping, which
is different, because that that doesn't give you an insight into
performance. But it gives you an insight into the minds of the
people who are performing about what's going on. That said you
can only get what people are willing to share. But that goes
back to kind of the grand topic of what we're talking about here
with levels of productivity is also what can the organization
do to maybe get that right talent? And then when you do
have those star performers that you're talking about, how do you
retain them? And that's a big question. And that's something I
think a lot of organizations are struggling with right now.
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Mason Mclead: Yeah, I agree. I mean, it. I think on both sides
of those, that's always the hard thing. I mean, competition is
fierce for talent, there's more and more software companies, you
know, coming into existence every day, they need to hire
software engineers, and traditional companies that
weren't doing their own software engineering now are. So they're
hiring. So you've got big names, you've got new startups, all of
that searching for people to come and, and provide value in
software development. So it's a it is challenging at times to
hire really good people. And, you know, software.com is a
fully remote company. So I find that to be a huge advantage that
we can find really skilled people really smart people
anywhere. And we're not geographically confined to, you
know, Southern California or the Bay Area, not that there's a
lack of people there. But you know, your your, if you are in
in office only place, which obviously, things have changed
very much recently. But if your plan is to go back to only at
the office, you're geographically confining
yourself, again, to that competitive space to that talent
pool. And one of the things that can really open up, your ability
to hire really great people is to just open up where you can
hire from. And, you know, it's, it's a transition that we've all
or most of us have had to make over the past two years coming
up on three years. Geez.
Jason Baum: It's kind of kind of crazy. I now, this is it. Yeah,
it's actually the fourth. What is it? 2019? Yeah. So so we're
this is actually the fourth calendar year, which is even
insane to think about. But now, do you think that so the
pandemic, obviously, so let's talk about that a bit more,
because the pandemic played a huge role in what's going on?
Both from the organization standpoint, and the talent
standpoint, you know, the employee standpoint. Do you
think that when we made that shift remote, it was sort of a
wake up call to organizations that, hey, we can do this. And
it's, it wasn't that hard. Everybody kind of made the
transition within a couple of weeks. And people thought that
this, this was going to take years to make up if we're going
to go to an all I mean, I remember people talking about
that this is going to take forever to go to all remote.
It's not even a possibility. And now that we are able to go back
to the office, many places, many places are opening back up. Do
you it's amazing to see we have a career board. On our website,
there's ones all over, it's amazing to see how many jobs are
actually still isolating themselves to a talent pool by
on site only. I think even hybrid in some instances, like
when you're hiring new talent, it's interesting to me, because
why not open up yourself to everybody?
Mason Mclead: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the that transition that
was made, and it was so fast, and people just responded, and
we're able to go and do it. I think that there's a couple
things going on there. One, I think a lot of the engineers or
people that went remote, they had a sneaking suspicion that
they could have done that the whole time already. And that the
office wasn't really necessary. I think other organizations
inside of business feel differently about that. And
they, you know, need or really desire that in person, energy
and feeling and like that's, that's what they really wanted
to see. You know, I think a lot of people already knew that
they, in the back of their minds that this could be done. But I
think one of the reasons that that transition was so
successful for most people, is that everyone had to do it all
at once. It wasn't a Okay, a couple people can go work
remote. And then it may be a couple more if that works out.
Okay. Because at that point, you're now split. You're in this
mixed state of some people, right? A lot of people still at
the office, and the communication style is now
split. And that's a culture issue too. Yeah. And which means
it doesn't work. Yeah. Like Hallway Conversations are still
the norm in that type of situation. And so the people
that are now working remote, have a communication
disadvantage, because they're not there to do that. And it's
not being written down. Written language, you know, not
surprisingly, is the one thing that makes all of this stuff
work. And when everyone had to go remote, you had to write it
down. Once you got tired of being in a Zoom meeting all day,
right. So like what people learn, Oh, get like, we don't
have to do that all day, I could just write something down, make
a document, send a message, even like Slack in all the threads
and everything you can get into is better than being on a zoom
call all day. Because you can go back to it like we do our stand
ups extremely quickly, because we write it all down. And we
don't just like read it to each other. Again, like we know that
we can read refer back to right, right. So it's like, if you have
a blocker, bring it up, otherwise, move on and like get
to the actual work. So it streamlines that type of
communication really well. And I think that's what made it work
is that everyone had to do it all at once. And so you made
that whole communication shift.
Jason Baum: Yeah, because we had remote work before I, you know,
we had telecommuting, I was actually working remote right
before the pandemic for a year and a half. And you know, what,
I was actually an employee who was remote when the majority of
the company was not, and you're right. So my office was in
Chicago, I'm in New Jersey, New York area. And I would have to
fly out there. But yeah, I mean, there's so many conversations
that when I would fly out there, and I would spend time, it's
like, I just picked up a year's worth of information in a week,
or something. And and yeah, now when we're all remote, we're all
on the same page. We're on the same boat. i It does worry me
with every with people going back. Yeah, that that's going to
happen again, in hybrid spaces. But but as a chief executive,
you know, is is there a piece of you that wonders with with
people going back? Are we making this decision? And again, it's
the general we, for motion, like to just to make some people feel
better? Because they want to be around people? Or is there a
lid? Because for business reasons, there are so many
reasons not to do it overhead? I mean, there's so many that I
could list out that when people are making usually a financial
decision, I feel like there are so many checkmarks that we have
learned to make remote work, sort of a standard. Is this
like, I don't know, is this a very emotional decision? Because
people want to be back in an office with people?
Mason Mclead: I think it really is. I mean, we've got some data
that we're still refining about people that are working in an
office with other people and people that are working remotely
and what the difference in like, even in low level metrics of how
much time they're spending coding, what's the actual raw
output of that. And it's, you know, for if you average all the
kind of cohorts, it's roughly the same. So if you as a
business are making, you know, rent payments of, instead,
you're like a medium sized to do $10 million a year. And you're
getting roughly the same, possibly worse productivity from
your engineers and your software company, you've wasted $10
million, that could have been used to hire more people. And so
let's take even the case where the productivity is 5% less. You
could have hired more engineers for $10 million a year, like
that annual budget can go a long way than having the office or,
you know, cut aside you know, a few million so that you can have
quarterly or semi annual get togethers and like go have fun
together. Because I think that the human bonding side of it is
important. Yeah, and seeing each other in person is important. We
still do that. It's software, we're we don't have an office
anywhere we never have. But we still get together. We're
planning a trip right now. For everyone to come and go surfing
at the beach. So you know, love that. So you know, really fun
stuff like that, that that does make a difference. So I think
people are looking for that connection again. Especially if
they've been isolated in during the pandemic like before, and
you know, it kind of talked from startup land before the
pandemic, the the cultural center of our lives work and the
people that we work with and what we're doing and the mission
of the company and In the effort of doing that, and going to the
happy hours, and like that was where you spent time with
people, and you learn new things. And that was missing all
of a sudden, and there wasn't a replacement, because we couldn't
go out and do stuff. Or at least not nearly as much stuff as we
could before.
Jason Baum: And you could only sit on a zoom happy hour for so
long. Yeah,
Mason Mclead: like awkwardly talking over each other, it
doesn't work the same. So I think, yeah, people definitely
want that we're human, we desire to have that community, and work
for a lot of people is that community, I think, if we stay
in this full remote mode long enough, we'll have our work
community. But we'll realize that we have time to actually
have our own communities as well. And that will start to
take on more importance, then, co workers and everything else.
So like, I'm fortunate enough to have a family that I live with.
So like, I'm busy taking care of the kid hanging out with the
wife, and doing all that. So you know, I've got my community
there. I've got friends down the street. And that's the part that
makes up what I used to have, because I used to be in the
office. Man, I'm embarrassed to say how many hours a day how
many hours a day? Yeah. And, you know, that was that was it? And
so, you know, there's, there's, I think there has to be a
replacement for most people, because we desire that. I think
we can find it in better ways outside of being back at the
office.
Jason Baum: Yeah, I feel so strongly about this, this issue.
So I'm going to try to tone it down. But, you know, go knock on
the pulpit here. But I believe there always needs to be a
little bit of a separation here of church and state, so to
speak. You know that with that, especially coming out of college
and starting in the workforce, many people make their adult
quote unquote, friends through work, right. And I get that,
especially if you're single, if you're young, that there is you
know, this this is where potentially you make friends,
you make some connections, who knows. But, but for those of us,
like you said, you know, we we have families, we have the
frame, we have friends, we have what we, you know, I think what
makes us happy, I think over the past few years. Happiness, at
least for me, and I know a lot of people feel this way. We've
we've done our introspection, there's been a lot of
introspect. We had a lot of time to kind of sit there. And
especially with without the outside noise for two plus years
now. Yeah, we didn't have the noise. And and yeah, I think we
reassessed maybe our what, what is valued when it comes to
social interaction, especially.
Mason Mclead: And I, you know, I think that segues great into the
topic of the great resignation, yes, as well. Because I think
that's, that is the underlying cultural current that is driving
a lot of that, where we've had that time to go, Wait a minute,
my entire life, isn't that. So why was it consuming my entire
life? In a
Jason Baum: matter of hours? Like I just said,
Mason Mclead: Mm hmm. And so, you know, that is, I think, a
key driver of it. I think another is, you know, now that
people kind of have that competence going, Okay, this
isn't my entire life, they can look at it much more, you know,
sort of mathematically about like, okay, is this a good
working environment? For me? And, you know, of all the things
that we were talking about earlier with the measurements,
that's where you can start to see like, is the system even
built? Well, for me to work in? Am I able to actually do good
work, or is it just going to be frustrating? The entire time.
And if you find yourself as, as the company, with a system that
just frustrates the people trying to work in it, like
you're going to find that they're going to find somewhere
else. It also, I think it's a culture critical to invest in
that DevOps in order to make the system better, and also to make
the developer experience better. And obviously, speaking directly
about software engineers, but making developer experience
better making it be a more streamlined collaborative
environment to get that work done. And again, measuring in a
way that feels safe, not one that like goes and makes the
stack rank so you can like, cut the 10% and higher again, and
you know, those kinds of very aggressive management techniques
that have been talked about over the decades.
Jason Baum: Yeah, cuz I'm wondering with a great
resignation, you know, how many of the people leaving so so
There's, I think a few things going on here. You have people
leaving their jobs because they're unhappy with something
going on the culture, like you said, I mean, most of it, I
would say is culture right now, like, like you were alluding to.
And I think most one of the first things people ask on job
interviews is, how's the culture? What about the cult,
you know, they want to dive into the culture more. So I would
say, in some cases, I have a very good friend who just left a
very important position in a very big well known company,
mainly because of culture, and gave it up because of culture.
And I know that they're not the only ones who are doing that
right now. But then how many people are then? Okay, so that
person left that job? That's like a dream job to someone
else, they're gonna go fill that job? How long is it until they
leave? That it's like an endless, you know, you know,
what I'm trying to say here? But what are some things that that,
you know, software.com does to, you know, attract great talent,
but more importantly, retain it?
Mason Mclead: Yeah. So, I mean, for attracting I mean, we, we
hire from anywhere we have, you know, the, the normal sorts of
perks of unlimited PTO, the things the bullet lists, the
healthcare and all that stuff, those are, that's just how you
get in the door. Like, you've got to have those things in
order. You know, I've been able to, thankfully draw from my
network, and, and then people here, draw from their network,
and pull people in that they know, are really good. And so
it's, you know, it. At that point, I think it really
something that we've been able to do, and it'll it'll be
different for everyone is, when you've got those long
relationships, and you've got people that you can trust and
trust you, that is so valuable. And if you're hiring people that
you know, that you don't know, yet, they're new to the company
new to you, if you can kind of get a sense of Are they someone
that you can trust, and like they've got those relationships,
then if you need to hire more people, they'll have that
network there that you can pull from. And then, you know, that's
how we kind of brought in a lot of our senior people. And we've
had a great intern program as well, that we've that we brought
people on full time. And, you know, being able to actually
spend the time to invest in them, when they're interns, and
then give them real work and real support, that makes a huge
difference. So that, you know, you're not just pulling from the
same networks, because that will eventually dry up and you don't
always need to hire senior people then shouldn't at a
certain point, we good to have multilayers there. So I think I
am a big fan of bringing in interns and training them up
and, and having them available to join as well and making it a
good place for them to join. So that that's, you know, some of
the things we've done on the attraction side. At bigger
companies that I've worked at, I've done other things that we
could talk about if you want, but we're like I hired entire
teams from startups that that are going out of business and,
and, and all that. So but on the on the retention side, which I
think is essential.
Jason Baum: Yeah, I think that's the most important, right, yeah,
Mason Mclead: it's, you know, I've got someone today who's
taking taking a day off, so that they said that they're taking a
sanity day, because they just got too much stuff to catch up
on in their life. And I was, like, great. And we got a bunch
of messages saying, I love those days, I hope you have a good one
to have some relaxation to so like, the amount of support that
people feel on not just their work and what they're doing and
prioritization, making sure they're working on important
things. But them as a person is a huge area for optimizing
further attention to us kind of, you know, more more techie words
there, but it's a, I think that's just, that's the key to
is like really caring about them as a person, giving them time to
do what they need to do. And, and also, you know, with the
amount of work that you're putting on people and what
you're asking of them, making sure that they understand the
why of it, making sure that they understand, you know, if there
is a deadline, why is there a deadline, and if it's
artificial, which many are which is totally fine, because it
helps you segment work. Let them understand that. You know, if it
isn't done on the first, nothing blows up on the second. Like,
it's okay, if it doesn't make it but like, that's what we're
shooting for. So let's like reasonable under certain
reasonable estimations of what time things will take to get
done, the ability to control that workflow, so that they, you
know, they understand why it's getting done, what's the core
thing that they're trying to do, and then they're the ones doing
it, they have the best knowledge about how it works. So if
there's something that needs to get cut, or gets reworked, they
need to be empowered to be able to do it, to make it fit within,
you know, the agreed upon timeline that we've set aside
for doing that thing. So I think it's empowerment, at work, it's
support on their personal lives. And, and you don't have to be
best friends in order to do that, like, you know, it's I'm
not trying to say like, you have to be as soft as possible in
like, in, you know, just hang out with all of your coworkers.
This is very much work related. And, you know, there's a lot of
things that I don't know about people because they have their
personal lives. And I'm at work, and they have personal lives.
And like, I think that's one of the big things is making sure
that you've got a distinction there, they've got work
relationships, you've got good communication, because that's
essential to getting it done. But that they can go and take a
sanity day and do their stuff. And they don't have to explain
it away.
Jason Baum: Trust trust from the organization, that you're hiring
him that you're hiring adults. I think that's like the key.
Everyone just wants to be treated like an adult. And I
think we're the good organizations get that. I think
that's kind of that's, that's the summarize what I'm hearing
is, you're treating people like adults that they can handle
handle the workload, they can understand the workload, they
can do it in their time and, and not feel pressured, but at the
same time know what the objectives are. I think that's
all we want, right is to be seen and treated as adults. Yep.
Yeah. I think that's a great, great place to kind of to end.
Mason, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, we do ask
one last question. And this is kind of more, you know, we are
about the human side. So this is kind of getting to know you. I
love this one last question. If you could be remembered for one
thing, what would it be?
Mason Mclead: I mean, the first thing that popped in my head was
for being kind.
Jason Baum: That's awesome. I love that. I love that. Yeah, I
think we need a lot of kindness in this world, especially right
now. And I think this world would be a completely different
place. If, if more people saw it that way, for sure. Mason, thank
you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time.
Really appreciate it. Appreciate everything you had to say. This
was such a timely topic. And it was a lot of fun talking about
it
Mason Mclead: with you. Yeah. Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it.
And thanks
Jason Baum: for listening to this episode of the humans of
DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode the same way I
always do, encouraging you to become a member of DevOps
Institute to get access to even more great resources just like
this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of
all, stay human, live long and prosper.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of
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