1 00:00:02,939 --> 00:00:05,819 Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a 2 00:00:05,819 --> 00:00:09,449 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,479 --> 00:00:13,829 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,020 Mason Mclead: Like this is very much a team effort kind of 5 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,780 domain that we're in and measuring at the individual. 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,070 It's just the wrong place to measure. You're going to measure 7 00:00:26,070 --> 00:00:28,890 at a higher level, like what is the overall input and the 8 00:00:28,890 --> 00:00:32,160 overall output? And how is that affecting your consumers? 9 00:00:34,110 --> 00:00:36,870 Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member 10 00:00:36,870 --> 00:00:41,400 experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,290 podcast. Welcome back. Hope you had a great week, last week. 12 00:00:46,980 --> 00:00:50,760 This week, we have another great episode planned for you, we're 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,360 going to dive in to what engineering origin orgs need to 14 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,890 know in order to attract, retain and ensure the highest levels of 15 00:00:58,890 --> 00:01:03,690 productivity from their DevOps teams. This is a big topic, I 16 00:01:03,690 --> 00:01:08,100 think, is really relevant. I know. At some point, during the 17 00:01:08,100 --> 00:01:10,710 conversation, we're going to get into the great resignation, 18 00:01:10,710 --> 00:01:14,640 something that's very topical going on right now. And so much 19 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,260 more. And with me to discuss this topic, is our guest, Mason 20 00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:24,270 McLean. And Mason is the CTO of software comm a DevOps matrix 21 00:01:24,270 --> 00:01:26,730 platform that helps teams measure and improve their 22 00:01:26,730 --> 00:01:30,180 organization's DevOps performance. He leads the design 23 00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:32,880 and development of the company's technology platforms and 24 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,960 products, which collect data across the stack, analyze over 25 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:41,940 20 million daily events from its community of over 250,000 26 00:01:41,940 --> 00:01:45,210 developers, and create valuable metrics and insights for 27 00:01:45,210 --> 00:01:49,620 engineering teams. Mason is here with me right now. And we're 28 00:01:49,620 --> 00:01:51,720 really happy to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for 29 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:52,470 joining us. 30 00:01:52,770 --> 00:01:54,390 Mason Mclead: Thanks, Jason. I'm looking forward to this 31 00:01:54,390 --> 00:01:56,250 conversation. I think we got a lot to talk about. 32 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,030 Jason Baum: Awesome. Yeah, I agree. And so with that, are you 33 00:02:00,030 --> 00:02:00,930 ready to get human? 34 00:02:01,230 --> 00:02:03,180 Mason Mclead: Let's do it. Awesome. 35 00:02:03,870 --> 00:02:09,990 Jason Baum: So let's just go right into, you know, how is 36 00:02:10,020 --> 00:02:11,640 DevOps productivity measured? 37 00:02:12,750 --> 00:02:15,750 Mason Mclead: Yeah, I mean, it, it is kind of interesting that, 38 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,940 you know, the way that I see DevOps is, its purpose is really 39 00:02:20,940 --> 00:02:26,760 to make the systems and the developers more productive. So 40 00:02:26,820 --> 00:02:29,580 when we say that we're measuring DevOps, productivity, we're like 41 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:33,180 measuring the productivity of people making productivity. So, 42 00:02:33,540 --> 00:02:38,190 so I think it's kind of silly to say in a sentence, but when you 43 00:02:38,190 --> 00:02:42,210 think about it, if your people that are working for you, there, 44 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,230 their job is to make other people's work better, if their 45 00:02:46,230 --> 00:02:49,710 work is better, you get a multiplier effect on it. So 46 00:02:49,830 --> 00:02:53,880 we're kind of measuring an even an even more important level of 47 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,810 productivity for these DevOps systems and the people that put 48 00:02:57,810 --> 00:03:02,730 them into place, as well as their their end result of having 49 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,260 a well running system that, you know, in to get on the human 50 00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:09,900 side of it, that's not frustrating for people to work 51 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:13,770 in, that isn't holding people back, as developers put a lot of 52 00:03:13,770 --> 00:03:17,550 time and effort and DevOps engineers as well into what they 53 00:03:17,550 --> 00:03:21,240 build, and putting it into then a pipeline to get it out to 54 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,900 production, that just is all starts and stops and is 55 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:29,070 frustrating and takes a long time. Like, it's a really easy 56 00:03:29,070 --> 00:03:33,240 way to make people frustrated and less satisfied. So when 57 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,940 we're measuring DevOps productivity, we're measuring 58 00:03:36,030 --> 00:03:40,830 the productivity of all of that. And, you know, the approach that 59 00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:46,980 that we've taken, is really to measure at the system level. So 60 00:03:46,980 --> 00:03:50,070 there's a concept called Value Stream Mapping, it comes from 61 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:55,080 manufacturing and other places, you know, historically, but it's 62 00:03:55,140 --> 00:04:00,000 been applied to development and DevOps much more recently. And, 63 00:04:00,390 --> 00:04:03,690 you know, the main concept to come out of that is you measure 64 00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:08,130 as close to the customer at the beginning as you can, and as 65 00:04:08,130 --> 00:04:12,660 close to the customer at the end, as you can. So when did a 66 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:17,100 request come in? And then when was that request fulfilled? And 67 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:20,010 when did the customer actually see it and get their hands on 68 00:04:20,010 --> 00:04:25,830 it? And so by measuring the time between those two things, you 69 00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:31,530 got your overall lead time. You can see how productive that that 70 00:04:31,530 --> 00:04:35,670 isn't in that terms. And then you can cut it into the main 71 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:41,040 pieces of what it takes to create whatever the the feature 72 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,940 is, or refine whatever it is. Put it into review. How's your 73 00:04:44,940 --> 00:04:47,100 team jumping on to that if you're doing photo request 74 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:51,390 reviews? How quickly does it go through tests? Are they failing 75 00:04:51,390 --> 00:04:55,200 often does it take a long time to get through that stage? What 76 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,710 is your pipeline look like to get to production and how long 77 00:04:58,710 --> 00:05:01,050 does that take and another manual steps, how often are 78 00:05:01,050 --> 00:05:04,830 people doing it, you have a schedule, all those things, you 79 00:05:04,830 --> 00:05:10,380 can start to piece together into this big map of what it takes to 80 00:05:10,380 --> 00:05:15,150 get something from beginning to end. And the customer then has 81 00:05:15,150 --> 00:05:18,570 what they've asked for. And you know, they've got internal 82 00:05:18,570 --> 00:05:22,440 customers, of course, in a company, you've got the the 83 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,060 final, external customer. So all those things can get measured in 84 00:05:27,060 --> 00:05:30,810 that way. And that's the view that we look at there. And I 85 00:05:30,810 --> 00:05:36,450 think that it's an important distinction to look at it from 86 00:05:36,450 --> 00:05:41,310 the customer's point of view, versus what I see a lot of 87 00:05:41,310 --> 00:05:46,530 people fall into the trap of is stack ranking your engineers and 88 00:05:46,530 --> 00:05:49,440 saying, This person made this many pull requests in two days 89 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,110 versus this many pull requests this, and we've got this like 90 00:05:52,140 --> 00:05:57,240 eternal stack rank, whose only purpose that I've seen is to, 91 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,850 like devalue people at the bottom. And, and really give a 92 00:06:02,850 --> 00:06:09,150 very, in incomplete story to what's going on in your team. So 93 00:06:09,150 --> 00:06:13,530 we avoid anything like that, completely. In our product, 94 00:06:13,530 --> 00:06:16,980 there is no individual data that you can see about an individual 95 00:06:17,010 --> 00:06:21,270 as a manager as another team member, you can see yours, but 96 00:06:21,270 --> 00:06:25,170 the team sees theirs. And that's the line that we draw there. 97 00:06:25,739 --> 00:06:29,279 Jason Baum: So it's all in one, it's how is your team 98 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:30,029 performing? 99 00:06:30,150 --> 00:06:34,380 Mason Mclead: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's extremely rare, I 100 00:06:34,380 --> 00:06:40,290 think, for an individual to make massive product contributions at 101 00:06:40,290 --> 00:06:43,560 a bigger, even if you've got a few people on your team, like 102 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:49,590 this is very much a team effort, kind of domain that we're in and 103 00:06:49,980 --> 00:06:53,220 measuring at the individual level, misses, context, misses 104 00:06:53,220 --> 00:06:56,250 communication, it misses, if you're pair programming, it 105 00:06:56,250 --> 00:07:00,360 misses all these sorts of things that go into development. And so 106 00:07:00,570 --> 00:07:04,920 it's just the wrong place to measure. You gotta measure at a 107 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,950 higher level, like, what is the overall input and the overall 108 00:07:07,980 --> 00:07:11,010 output? And how is that affecting your consumers? 109 00:07:11,610 --> 00:07:14,160 Jason Baum: Yeah, and we'll, we'll come back to that. Because 110 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:20,220 I have a lot of feelings about that and an experience. And not 111 00:07:20,220 --> 00:07:23,280 just, you know, we look at customer experience, we spent so 112 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,270 much time on customer experience where we think, and the 113 00:07:27,270 --> 00:07:34,680 collective we lack is employee experience. And I think that's 114 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,940 why we're seeing what is happening right now, in the job 115 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:44,160 market. So let's go back to productivity, though. And just 116 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,910 to address so when you see low levels of productivity, so you 117 00:07:47,910 --> 00:07:51,960 know, you're measuring the team, you're seeing low levels of 118 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,470 productivity, what does that mean? Is that when you start 119 00:07:55,470 --> 00:07:58,950 isolating individuals, how do you how do you what does it 120 00:07:58,950 --> 00:08:01,590 mean? And how do you address it? Yeah, 121 00:08:01,619 --> 00:08:06,629 Mason Mclead: so you know, it. The interesting thing that, that 122 00:08:06,629 --> 00:08:08,849 comes about, when you start measuring these things, is when 123 00:08:08,849 --> 00:08:14,339 you see your actual numbers, the, what it means to you, and 124 00:08:14,339 --> 00:08:16,979 like how impactful it is, is, is very different than when you 125 00:08:16,979 --> 00:08:23,639 kind of think about what you're going to measure. And so for 126 00:08:23,639 --> 00:08:28,529 example, we had a period a couple of months ago, where our 127 00:08:29,939 --> 00:08:36,299 time to get pieces of work into merged into the main branch was 128 00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:41,369 shooting up like really, really fast. And, you know, we realized 129 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:44,249 that people reviewing, like, we looked at that there was no 130 00:08:44,249 --> 00:08:49,439 delay there, there was no lack of work coming in to the this 131 00:08:49,439 --> 00:08:53,159 process. And people were working, it was effective, we 132 00:08:53,159 --> 00:08:56,639 knew what we were working on. So it wasn't like a product 133 00:08:56,639 --> 00:09:01,199 management sort of issue, or prioritization, we found that, 134 00:09:01,259 --> 00:09:04,049 you know, this was on our data pipeline, we didn't have a very 135 00:09:04,049 --> 00:09:09,059 good way to test. And so what we did is we kind of paused what 136 00:09:09,059 --> 00:09:12,029 we're doing there, we built a staging environment. For our 137 00:09:12,029 --> 00:09:15,419 data pipelines, which is not that common. It's kind of, I 138 00:09:15,419 --> 00:09:17,579 think data is at a moment where it's becoming more software 139 00:09:17,579 --> 00:09:21,119 engineering than traditional data analytics. And us being a 140 00:09:21,119 --> 00:09:25,409 data product, it's, you know, very much what we do. So, you 141 00:09:25,409 --> 00:09:29,789 know, what we found is that low level of productivity as you can 142 00:09:29,789 --> 00:09:35,849 measure it, kind of from the end to end results there was due to 143 00:09:36,449 --> 00:09:41,099 us not having the right system in place to address quality 144 00:09:41,099 --> 00:09:44,459 concerns and, and making, you know, the team really wanted to 145 00:09:44,459 --> 00:09:48,419 make sure that it was correct when it hit production, which I 146 00:09:48,419 --> 00:09:52,259 agree with, so I was very happy that they were doing that and 147 00:09:52,289 --> 00:09:55,649 you know, they were just missing a tool. So we put that in place, 148 00:09:55,829 --> 00:10:01,079 and now it's you know, smoothed out and and that issue was 149 00:10:01,079 --> 00:10:06,149 resolved. So that's what I look for. Whenever I see low 150 00:10:06,149 --> 00:10:09,479 productivity coming through a system, usually there's 151 00:10:09,479 --> 00:10:12,689 something wrong with that system. Now on the case that you 152 00:10:12,689 --> 00:10:16,859 brought up, like, is it individual? Like, when do you 153 00:10:16,859 --> 00:10:21,959 start looking into that? Right? I think that's where you, as a 154 00:10:21,959 --> 00:10:26,639 manager, probably already know, like, if that's your first 155 00:10:26,699 --> 00:10:30,749 inclination, you probably already have a name in mind, of 156 00:10:30,749 --> 00:10:36,479 who that probably is. And then it comes in, you know, you, you 157 00:10:36,479 --> 00:10:39,689 pick it up during stand ups, you pick it up during check ins, or 158 00:10:39,689 --> 00:10:42,869 you know, weekly project reviews, stuff like that. You 159 00:10:42,869 --> 00:10:46,439 know, that's the management side of it, and the human side of it, 160 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,449 that is different than measuring systems. And I think, you know, 161 00:10:51,449 --> 00:10:55,559 I haven't seen yet a good measurement that can isolate 162 00:10:56,099 --> 00:10:59,459 that type of performance, those kind of like individual 163 00:10:59,459 --> 00:11:04,499 performance issues in a way that doesn't, you know, suffer from 164 00:11:04,499 --> 00:11:07,139 getting mixed signals from just other types of behaviors that 165 00:11:07,139 --> 00:11:12,719 goes on in your organization. So I would say, you, I mean, people 166 00:11:12,719 --> 00:11:16,739 can people do measure individual performance, I would suggest to 167 00:11:16,739 --> 00:11:21,569 never do that at this point. And, you know, that's where the 168 00:11:21,569 --> 00:11:24,899 human part of being a manager or being a people manager comes in. 169 00:11:26,189 --> 00:11:32,429 I've had this, you know, several times over my career were, in 170 00:11:32,429 --> 00:11:35,819 one time, when I years ago, I brought in a system that did 171 00:11:35,819 --> 00:11:40,679 actually stack rank everyone, because I already knew that this 172 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,559 person wasn't a good fit, and that they could do better 173 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,789 elsewhere. But I needed like I was, I was newer into 174 00:11:47,789 --> 00:11:50,309 management, I wasn't feeling confident in my decision with 175 00:11:50,309 --> 00:11:54,809 that. So I brought in a tool to tell me what I already knew. And 176 00:11:54,839 --> 00:11:59,189 then, like, I, you know, so I had it there. And then I, you 177 00:11:59,189 --> 00:12:02,009 know, had the human conversation and everything was much better 178 00:12:02,009 --> 00:12:04,739 after we had that conversation, and found that person a new 179 00:12:04,739 --> 00:12:10,349 place. And they're doing great, by the way, and great. Yeah, 180 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:13,169 they move to a different state, and they like a manager 181 00:12:13,169 --> 00:12:17,309 somewhere else they're doing, they're doing awesome. But that 182 00:12:17,369 --> 00:12:20,009 that system that was in place, I told the rest of the team that I 183 00:12:20,009 --> 00:12:26,009 had it, and within a month, they revolted like it was gone. So I 184 00:12:26,009 --> 00:12:26,399 think, 185 00:12:27,269 --> 00:12:29,939 Jason Baum: did you see a productivity issue with that 186 00:12:29,969 --> 00:12:31,259 when when you brought that in? 187 00:12:31,830 --> 00:12:35,190 Mason Mclead: You know, it didn't affect productivity, 188 00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:39,150 because I think the whole team was very dedicated already. And 189 00:12:39,180 --> 00:12:42,840 there was nothing wrong, what that what that kind of tool told 190 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,630 me was, the people that I already knew were amazing, are 191 00:12:45,630 --> 00:12:51,300 amazing. And the one person that I knew wasn't a good fit wasn't 192 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:53,400 a good fit. So that's the 193 00:12:53,399 --> 00:12:57,059 Jason Baum: problem with tools, right? Yeah. Especially when it 194 00:12:57,059 --> 00:13:01,139 comes to a human issue, because it is hard. You know, some 195 00:13:01,139 --> 00:13:04,529 things just can't be put into an algorithm, Some things just 196 00:13:04,529 --> 00:13:08,789 can't be. And culture. I think there's a lot of things out 197 00:13:08,789 --> 00:13:11,339 there that try and a lot of things to do. So that do it. 198 00:13:11,339 --> 00:13:15,209 Well, depending on what it is. We spoke to Dan papayas, who's 199 00:13:15,209 --> 00:13:19,889 the CEO of range a few weeks ago, and range is actually a 200 00:13:19,889 --> 00:13:23,039 great product, I actually started introducing it in my 201 00:13:23,039 --> 00:13:27,269 team just to test it out. And not to talk too much about that. 202 00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:30,689 But I'll just say there's something to it, because it's 203 00:13:30,689 --> 00:13:35,609 about like, what they do that's different is mood mapping, which 204 00:13:35,609 --> 00:13:38,339 is different, because that that doesn't give you an insight into 205 00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:41,549 performance. But it gives you an insight into the minds of the 206 00:13:41,549 --> 00:13:45,659 people who are performing about what's going on. That said you 207 00:13:45,659 --> 00:13:49,349 can only get what people are willing to share. But that goes 208 00:13:49,349 --> 00:13:53,969 back to kind of the grand topic of what we're talking about here 209 00:13:53,999 --> 00:14:00,239 with levels of productivity is also what can the organization 210 00:14:00,239 --> 00:14:05,249 do to maybe get that right talent? And then when you do 211 00:14:05,249 --> 00:14:08,609 have those star performers that you're talking about, how do you 212 00:14:08,609 --> 00:14:13,019 retain them? And that's a big question. And that's something I 213 00:14:13,019 --> 00:14:15,539 think a lot of organizations are struggling with right now. 214 00:14:17,579 --> 00:14:21,299 Today's episode of the humans of DevOps podcast is sponsored by 215 00:14:21,299 --> 00:14:25,079 collide collide is an endpoint security solution that sends 216 00:14:25,079 --> 00:14:28,559 your employees important and timely security recommendations 217 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:32,579 for their Linux Mac and Windows devices right inside Slack 218 00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:36,029 collide is perfect for organizations that care deeply 219 00:14:36,059 --> 00:14:39,809 about compliance and security, but don't want to get there by 220 00:14:39,809 --> 00:14:42,899 locking down devices to the point where they become unusable 221 00:14:43,169 --> 00:14:46,709 instead of frustrating your employees collide educates them 222 00:14:46,739 --> 00:14:50,129 about security and device management while directing them 223 00:14:50,129 --> 00:14:53,969 to fix important problems. You can try collide with all its 224 00:14:53,969 --> 00:14:59,309 features on an unlimited number of devices free for 14 days. No 225 00:14:59,309 --> 00:15:05,669 credit card required visit collide.com/h o DEP to sign up 226 00:15:05,669 --> 00:15:14,729 today that's collide K olid.com/h. O. DEP enter your 227 00:15:14,759 --> 00:15:17,969 email when prompted to receive your free collide gift bundle 228 00:15:17,999 --> 00:15:19,559 after trial activation. 229 00:15:22,110 --> 00:15:26,760 Mason Mclead: Yeah, I agree. I mean, it. I think on both sides 230 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,940 of those, that's always the hard thing. I mean, competition is 231 00:15:29,940 --> 00:15:37,200 fierce for talent, there's more and more software companies, you 232 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,470 know, coming into existence every day, they need to hire 233 00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:44,340 software engineers, and traditional companies that 234 00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:48,120 weren't doing their own software engineering now are. So they're 235 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,780 hiring. So you've got big names, you've got new startups, all of 236 00:15:51,780 --> 00:15:57,000 that searching for people to come and, and provide value in 237 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,490 software development. So it's a it is challenging at times to 238 00:16:02,490 --> 00:16:07,290 hire really good people. And, you know, software.com is a 239 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:12,750 fully remote company. So I find that to be a huge advantage that 240 00:16:12,750 --> 00:16:16,410 we can find really skilled people really smart people 241 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,750 anywhere. And we're not geographically confined to, you 242 00:16:21,750 --> 00:16:24,840 know, Southern California or the Bay Area, not that there's a 243 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:31,650 lack of people there. But you know, your your, if you are in 244 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,850 in office only place, which obviously, things have changed 245 00:16:35,850 --> 00:16:40,380 very much recently. But if your plan is to go back to only at 246 00:16:40,380 --> 00:16:42,720 the office, you're geographically confining 247 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,370 yourself, again, to that competitive space to that talent 248 00:16:47,370 --> 00:16:53,610 pool. And one of the things that can really open up, your ability 249 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:57,510 to hire really great people is to just open up where you can 250 00:16:57,510 --> 00:17:04,260 hire from. And, you know, it's, it's a transition that we've all 251 00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:07,740 or most of us have had to make over the past two years coming 252 00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:09,300 up on three years. Geez. 253 00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:13,590 Jason Baum: It's kind of kind of crazy. I now, this is it. Yeah, 254 00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:19,380 it's actually the fourth. What is it? 2019? Yeah. So so we're 255 00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:23,340 this is actually the fourth calendar year, which is even 256 00:17:23,610 --> 00:17:27,150 insane to think about. But now, do you think that so the 257 00:17:27,150 --> 00:17:29,790 pandemic, obviously, so let's talk about that a bit more, 258 00:17:29,820 --> 00:17:32,850 because the pandemic played a huge role in what's going on? 259 00:17:34,530 --> 00:17:38,160 Both from the organization standpoint, and the talent 260 00:17:38,580 --> 00:17:43,500 standpoint, you know, the employee standpoint. Do you 261 00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:51,090 think that when we made that shift remote, it was sort of a 262 00:17:51,090 --> 00:17:56,700 wake up call to organizations that, hey, we can do this. And 263 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,180 it's, it wasn't that hard. Everybody kind of made the 264 00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:03,840 transition within a couple of weeks. And people thought that 265 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,900 this, this was going to take years to make up if we're going 266 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:09,570 to go to an all I mean, I remember people talking about 267 00:18:09,570 --> 00:18:11,670 that this is going to take forever to go to all remote. 268 00:18:11,670 --> 00:18:15,150 It's not even a possibility. And now that we are able to go back 269 00:18:15,150 --> 00:18:20,280 to the office, many places, many places are opening back up. Do 270 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,200 you it's amazing to see we have a career board. On our website, 271 00:18:25,230 --> 00:18:28,980 there's ones all over, it's amazing to see how many jobs are 272 00:18:28,980 --> 00:18:33,720 actually still isolating themselves to a talent pool by 273 00:18:33,780 --> 00:18:38,640 on site only. I think even hybrid in some instances, like 274 00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:42,870 when you're hiring new talent, it's interesting to me, because 275 00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:45,330 why not open up yourself to everybody? 276 00:18:45,869 --> 00:18:51,149 Mason Mclead: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the that transition that 277 00:18:51,149 --> 00:18:57,179 was made, and it was so fast, and people just responded, and 278 00:18:57,209 --> 00:18:59,609 we're able to go and do it. I think that there's a couple 279 00:18:59,609 --> 00:19:05,129 things going on there. One, I think a lot of the engineers or 280 00:19:05,249 --> 00:19:08,639 people that went remote, they had a sneaking suspicion that 281 00:19:08,999 --> 00:19:12,929 they could have done that the whole time already. And that the 282 00:19:12,929 --> 00:19:18,209 office wasn't really necessary. I think other organizations 283 00:19:18,239 --> 00:19:21,329 inside of business feel differently about that. And 284 00:19:21,329 --> 00:19:26,849 they, you know, need or really desire that in person, energy 285 00:19:26,849 --> 00:19:30,239 and feeling and like that's, that's what they really wanted 286 00:19:30,299 --> 00:19:35,369 to see. You know, I think a lot of people already knew that 287 00:19:35,369 --> 00:19:38,519 they, in the back of their minds that this could be done. But I 288 00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:40,859 think one of the reasons that that transition was so 289 00:19:40,859 --> 00:19:45,239 successful for most people, is that everyone had to do it all 290 00:19:45,239 --> 00:19:49,649 at once. It wasn't a Okay, a couple people can go work 291 00:19:49,649 --> 00:19:53,789 remote. And then it may be a couple more if that works out. 292 00:19:53,789 --> 00:19:56,939 Okay. Because at that point, you're now split. You're in this 293 00:19:56,939 --> 00:20:01,439 mixed state of some people, right? A lot of people still at 294 00:20:01,439 --> 00:20:04,709 the office, and the communication style is now 295 00:20:04,709 --> 00:20:08,399 split. And that's a culture issue too. Yeah. And which means 296 00:20:08,399 --> 00:20:12,059 it doesn't work. Yeah. Like Hallway Conversations are still 297 00:20:12,059 --> 00:20:16,019 the norm in that type of situation. And so the people 298 00:20:16,019 --> 00:20:18,929 that are now working remote, have a communication 299 00:20:18,929 --> 00:20:22,649 disadvantage, because they're not there to do that. And it's 300 00:20:22,649 --> 00:20:27,299 not being written down. Written language, you know, not 301 00:20:27,299 --> 00:20:29,969 surprisingly, is the one thing that makes all of this stuff 302 00:20:29,999 --> 00:20:34,619 work. And when everyone had to go remote, you had to write it 303 00:20:34,619 --> 00:20:37,679 down. Once you got tired of being in a Zoom meeting all day, 304 00:20:37,889 --> 00:20:40,499 right. So like what people learn, Oh, get like, we don't 305 00:20:40,499 --> 00:20:43,979 have to do that all day, I could just write something down, make 306 00:20:43,979 --> 00:20:49,079 a document, send a message, even like Slack in all the threads 307 00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:51,719 and everything you can get into is better than being on a zoom 308 00:20:51,719 --> 00:20:55,139 call all day. Because you can go back to it like we do our stand 309 00:20:55,139 --> 00:20:59,609 ups extremely quickly, because we write it all down. And we 310 00:20:59,609 --> 00:21:02,579 don't just like read it to each other. Again, like we know that 311 00:21:02,579 --> 00:21:05,849 we can read refer back to right, right. So it's like, if you have 312 00:21:05,849 --> 00:21:09,569 a blocker, bring it up, otherwise, move on and like get 313 00:21:09,569 --> 00:21:13,709 to the actual work. So it streamlines that type of 314 00:21:13,709 --> 00:21:16,379 communication really well. And I think that's what made it work 315 00:21:16,439 --> 00:21:19,349 is that everyone had to do it all at once. And so you made 316 00:21:19,349 --> 00:21:20,819 that whole communication shift. 317 00:21:21,629 --> 00:21:24,209 Jason Baum: Yeah, because we had remote work before I, you know, 318 00:21:24,209 --> 00:21:27,119 we had telecommuting, I was actually working remote right 319 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,509 before the pandemic for a year and a half. And you know, what, 320 00:21:30,509 --> 00:21:33,809 I was actually an employee who was remote when the majority of 321 00:21:33,809 --> 00:21:36,629 the company was not, and you're right. So my office was in 322 00:21:36,629 --> 00:21:40,859 Chicago, I'm in New Jersey, New York area. And I would have to 323 00:21:40,859 --> 00:21:43,529 fly out there. But yeah, I mean, there's so many conversations 324 00:21:43,529 --> 00:21:47,489 that when I would fly out there, and I would spend time, it's 325 00:21:47,489 --> 00:21:51,509 like, I just picked up a year's worth of information in a week, 326 00:21:51,809 --> 00:21:55,439 or something. And and yeah, now when we're all remote, we're all 327 00:21:55,439 --> 00:21:59,939 on the same page. We're on the same boat. i It does worry me 328 00:21:59,969 --> 00:22:03,629 with every with people going back. Yeah, that that's going to 329 00:22:03,629 --> 00:22:08,639 happen again, in hybrid spaces. But but as a chief executive, 330 00:22:09,959 --> 00:22:15,509 you know, is is there a piece of you that wonders with with 331 00:22:15,509 --> 00:22:19,079 people going back? Are we making this decision? And again, it's 332 00:22:19,079 --> 00:22:25,169 the general we, for motion, like to just to make some people feel 333 00:22:25,169 --> 00:22:29,489 better? Because they want to be around people? Or is there a 334 00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:32,189 lid? Because for business reasons, there are so many 335 00:22:32,189 --> 00:22:35,789 reasons not to do it overhead? I mean, there's so many that I 336 00:22:35,789 --> 00:22:39,179 could list out that when people are making usually a financial 337 00:22:39,179 --> 00:22:42,149 decision, I feel like there are so many checkmarks that we have 338 00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:46,619 learned to make remote work, sort of a standard. Is this 339 00:22:46,619 --> 00:22:50,249 like, I don't know, is this a very emotional decision? Because 340 00:22:50,249 --> 00:22:53,189 people want to be back in an office with people? 341 00:22:53,460 --> 00:22:57,630 Mason Mclead: I think it really is. I mean, we've got some data 342 00:22:57,660 --> 00:23:02,070 that we're still refining about people that are working in an 343 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:04,380 office with other people and people that are working remotely 344 00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:09,090 and what the difference in like, even in low level metrics of how 345 00:23:09,090 --> 00:23:12,900 much time they're spending coding, what's the actual raw 346 00:23:12,930 --> 00:23:19,800 output of that. And it's, you know, for if you average all the 347 00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:23,580 kind of cohorts, it's roughly the same. So if you as a 348 00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:29,790 business are making, you know, rent payments of, instead, 349 00:23:29,790 --> 00:23:33,600 you're like a medium sized to do $10 million a year. And you're 350 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,830 getting roughly the same, possibly worse productivity from 351 00:23:37,860 --> 00:23:42,690 your engineers and your software company, you've wasted $10 352 00:23:42,690 --> 00:23:47,070 million, that could have been used to hire more people. And so 353 00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:53,130 let's take even the case where the productivity is 5% less. You 354 00:23:53,130 --> 00:23:55,890 could have hired more engineers for $10 million a year, like 355 00:23:55,890 --> 00:24:00,990 that annual budget can go a long way than having the office or, 356 00:24:01,050 --> 00:24:05,190 you know, cut aside you know, a few million so that you can have 357 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,600 quarterly or semi annual get togethers and like go have fun 358 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,810 together. Because I think that the human bonding side of it is 359 00:24:12,810 --> 00:24:16,800 important. Yeah, and seeing each other in person is important. We 360 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,260 still do that. It's software, we're we don't have an office 361 00:24:19,290 --> 00:24:22,950 anywhere we never have. But we still get together. We're 362 00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:27,900 planning a trip right now. For everyone to come and go surfing 363 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:31,560 at the beach. So you know, love that. So you know, really fun 364 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,820 stuff like that, that that does make a difference. So I think 365 00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:41,610 people are looking for that connection again. Especially if 366 00:24:41,610 --> 00:24:47,130 they've been isolated in during the pandemic like before, and 367 00:24:47,130 --> 00:24:50,400 you know, it kind of talked from startup land before the 368 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,890 pandemic, the the cultural center of our lives work and the 369 00:24:55,890 --> 00:24:58,320 people that we work with and what we're doing and the mission 370 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,610 of the company and In the effort of doing that, and going to the 371 00:25:02,610 --> 00:25:05,490 happy hours, and like that was where you spent time with 372 00:25:05,490 --> 00:25:08,910 people, and you learn new things. And that was missing all 373 00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:11,940 of a sudden, and there wasn't a replacement, because we couldn't 374 00:25:11,940 --> 00:25:15,390 go out and do stuff. Or at least not nearly as much stuff as we 375 00:25:15,390 --> 00:25:16,170 could before. 376 00:25:16,259 --> 00:25:18,479 Jason Baum: And you could only sit on a zoom happy hour for so 377 00:25:18,479 --> 00:25:19,739 long. Yeah, 378 00:25:19,770 --> 00:25:21,840 Mason Mclead: like awkwardly talking over each other, it 379 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,740 doesn't work the same. So I think, yeah, people definitely 380 00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:30,840 want that we're human, we desire to have that community, and work 381 00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:36,540 for a lot of people is that community, I think, if we stay 382 00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:40,380 in this full remote mode long enough, we'll have our work 383 00:25:40,380 --> 00:25:45,300 community. But we'll realize that we have time to actually 384 00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:50,010 have our own communities as well. And that will start to 385 00:25:50,010 --> 00:25:55,170 take on more importance, then, co workers and everything else. 386 00:25:55,170 --> 00:25:57,600 So like, I'm fortunate enough to have a family that I live with. 387 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,080 So like, I'm busy taking care of the kid hanging out with the 388 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,160 wife, and doing all that. So you know, I've got my community 389 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,020 there. I've got friends down the street. And that's the part that 390 00:26:10,020 --> 00:26:12,450 makes up what I used to have, because I used to be in the 391 00:26:12,450 --> 00:26:17,190 office. Man, I'm embarrassed to say how many hours a day how 392 00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:24,300 many hours a day? Yeah. And, you know, that was that was it? And 393 00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:27,720 so, you know, there's, there's, I think there has to be a 394 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,440 replacement for most people, because we desire that. I think 395 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,710 we can find it in better ways outside of being back at the 396 00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:35,280 office. 397 00:26:35,399 --> 00:26:38,339 Jason Baum: Yeah, I feel so strongly about this, this issue. 398 00:26:38,339 --> 00:26:42,029 So I'm going to try to tone it down. But, you know, go knock on 399 00:26:42,029 --> 00:26:44,909 the pulpit here. But I believe there always needs to be a 400 00:26:44,909 --> 00:26:47,429 little bit of a separation here of church and state, so to 401 00:26:47,429 --> 00:26:51,599 speak. You know that with that, especially coming out of college 402 00:26:51,629 --> 00:26:55,259 and starting in the workforce, many people make their adult 403 00:26:55,259 --> 00:26:59,279 quote unquote, friends through work, right. And I get that, 404 00:26:59,309 --> 00:27:03,209 especially if you're single, if you're young, that there is you 405 00:27:03,209 --> 00:27:06,269 know, this this is where potentially you make friends, 406 00:27:06,269 --> 00:27:10,799 you make some connections, who knows. But, but for those of us, 407 00:27:10,799 --> 00:27:14,879 like you said, you know, we we have families, we have the 408 00:27:14,879 --> 00:27:18,629 frame, we have friends, we have what we, you know, I think what 409 00:27:18,629 --> 00:27:22,469 makes us happy, I think over the past few years. Happiness, at 410 00:27:22,469 --> 00:27:25,919 least for me, and I know a lot of people feel this way. We've 411 00:27:25,979 --> 00:27:29,009 we've done our introspection, there's been a lot of 412 00:27:29,009 --> 00:27:33,239 introspect. We had a lot of time to kind of sit there. And 413 00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:38,369 especially with without the outside noise for two plus years 414 00:27:38,369 --> 00:27:44,339 now. Yeah, we didn't have the noise. And and yeah, I think we 415 00:27:44,369 --> 00:27:49,799 reassessed maybe our what, what is valued when it comes to 416 00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:51,659 social interaction, especially. 417 00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:55,350 Mason Mclead: And I, you know, I think that segues great into the 418 00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:58,770 topic of the great resignation, yes, as well. Because I think 419 00:27:58,770 --> 00:28:04,530 that's, that is the underlying cultural current that is driving 420 00:28:04,530 --> 00:28:09,450 a lot of that, where we've had that time to go, Wait a minute, 421 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,280 my entire life, isn't that. So why was it consuming my entire 422 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,230 life? In a 423 00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:18,240 Jason Baum: matter of hours? Like I just said, 424 00:28:18,660 --> 00:28:22,500 Mason Mclead: Mm hmm. And so, you know, that is, I think, a 425 00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:27,990 key driver of it. I think another is, you know, now that 426 00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:29,940 people kind of have that competence going, Okay, this 427 00:28:29,970 --> 00:28:35,970 isn't my entire life, they can look at it much more, you know, 428 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,990 sort of mathematically about like, okay, is this a good 429 00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:45,360 working environment? For me? And, you know, of all the things 430 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,030 that we were talking about earlier with the measurements, 431 00:28:48,570 --> 00:28:50,730 that's where you can start to see like, is the system even 432 00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:54,840 built? Well, for me to work in? Am I able to actually do good 433 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,560 work, or is it just going to be frustrating? The entire time. 434 00:28:58,830 --> 00:29:04,290 And if you find yourself as, as the company, with a system that 435 00:29:04,290 --> 00:29:08,460 just frustrates the people trying to work in it, like 436 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,620 you're going to find that they're going to find somewhere 437 00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:15,240 else. It also, I think it's a culture critical to invest in 438 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,010 that DevOps in order to make the system better, and also to make 439 00:29:20,010 --> 00:29:23,640 the developer experience better. And obviously, speaking directly 440 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,970 about software engineers, but making developer experience 441 00:29:26,970 --> 00:29:32,940 better making it be a more streamlined collaborative 442 00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:36,540 environment to get that work done. And again, measuring in a 443 00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:41,550 way that feels safe, not one that like goes and makes the 444 00:29:41,550 --> 00:29:46,140 stack rank so you can like, cut the 10% and higher again, and 445 00:29:46,170 --> 00:29:49,860 you know, those kinds of very aggressive management techniques 446 00:29:49,860 --> 00:29:51,870 that have been talked about over the decades. 447 00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:53,700 Jason Baum: Yeah, cuz I'm wondering with a great 448 00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:59,970 resignation, you know, how many of the people leaving so so 449 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,360 There's, I think a few things going on here. You have people 450 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,170 leaving their jobs because they're unhappy with something 451 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,260 going on the culture, like you said, I mean, most of it, I 452 00:30:10,260 --> 00:30:13,440 would say is culture right now, like, like you were alluding to. 453 00:30:13,950 --> 00:30:18,030 And I think most one of the first things people ask on job 454 00:30:18,030 --> 00:30:20,220 interviews is, how's the culture? What about the cult, 455 00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:23,520 you know, they want to dive into the culture more. So I would 456 00:30:23,550 --> 00:30:27,990 say, in some cases, I have a very good friend who just left a 457 00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:32,100 very important position in a very big well known company, 458 00:30:33,330 --> 00:30:36,720 mainly because of culture, and gave it up because of culture. 459 00:30:37,050 --> 00:30:40,530 And I know that they're not the only ones who are doing that 460 00:30:40,530 --> 00:30:43,470 right now. But then how many people are then? Okay, so that 461 00:30:43,470 --> 00:30:45,900 person left that job? That's like a dream job to someone 462 00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:48,480 else, they're gonna go fill that job? How long is it until they 463 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,600 leave? That it's like an endless, you know, you know, 464 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,960 what I'm trying to say here? But what are some things that that, 465 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,160 you know, software.com does to, you know, attract great talent, 466 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:00,870 but more importantly, retain it? 467 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:07,620 Mason Mclead: Yeah. So, I mean, for attracting I mean, we, we 468 00:31:07,620 --> 00:31:10,920 hire from anywhere we have, you know, the, the normal sorts of 469 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,360 perks of unlimited PTO, the things the bullet lists, the 470 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,440 healthcare and all that stuff, those are, that's just how you 471 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,470 get in the door. Like, you've got to have those things in 472 00:31:22,470 --> 00:31:28,410 order. You know, I've been able to, thankfully draw from my 473 00:31:28,410 --> 00:31:32,160 network, and, and then people here, draw from their network, 474 00:31:32,490 --> 00:31:37,950 and pull people in that they know, are really good. And so 475 00:31:37,950 --> 00:31:41,640 it's, you know, it. At that point, I think it really 476 00:31:41,670 --> 00:31:43,650 something that we've been able to do, and it'll it'll be 477 00:31:43,650 --> 00:31:47,160 different for everyone is, when you've got those long 478 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,060 relationships, and you've got people that you can trust and 479 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:57,060 trust you, that is so valuable. And if you're hiring people that 480 00:31:57,270 --> 00:31:59,370 you know, that you don't know, yet, they're new to the company 481 00:31:59,370 --> 00:32:04,470 new to you, if you can kind of get a sense of Are they someone 482 00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:07,500 that you can trust, and like they've got those relationships, 483 00:32:07,740 --> 00:32:10,650 then if you need to hire more people, they'll have that 484 00:32:10,650 --> 00:32:15,600 network there that you can pull from. And then, you know, that's 485 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,670 how we kind of brought in a lot of our senior people. And we've 486 00:32:20,670 --> 00:32:23,820 had a great intern program as well, that we've that we brought 487 00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:29,550 people on full time. And, you know, being able to actually 488 00:32:29,550 --> 00:32:34,020 spend the time to invest in them, when they're interns, and 489 00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:38,310 then give them real work and real support, that makes a huge 490 00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:40,800 difference. So that, you know, you're not just pulling from the 491 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,870 same networks, because that will eventually dry up and you don't 492 00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:50,280 always need to hire senior people then shouldn't at a 493 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,750 certain point, we good to have multilayers there. So I think I 494 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:59,130 am a big fan of bringing in interns and training them up 495 00:32:59,130 --> 00:33:02,970 and, and having them available to join as well and making it a 496 00:33:02,970 --> 00:33:06,570 good place for them to join. So that that's, you know, some of 497 00:33:06,570 --> 00:33:10,560 the things we've done on the attraction side. At bigger 498 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,160 companies that I've worked at, I've done other things that we 499 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,060 could talk about if you want, but we're like I hired entire 500 00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:22,110 teams from startups that that are going out of business and, 501 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:28,470 and, and all that. So but on the on the retention side, which I 502 00:33:28,590 --> 00:33:30,480 think is essential. 503 00:33:30,690 --> 00:33:33,420 Jason Baum: Yeah, I think that's the most important, right, yeah, 504 00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:37,680 Mason Mclead: it's, you know, I've got someone today who's 505 00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:44,640 taking taking a day off, so that they said that they're taking a 506 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,240 sanity day, because they just got too much stuff to catch up 507 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,810 on in their life. And I was, like, great. And we got a bunch 508 00:33:51,810 --> 00:33:55,260 of messages saying, I love those days, I hope you have a good one 509 00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:59,040 to have some relaxation to so like, the amount of support that 510 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:05,490 people feel on not just their work and what they're doing and 511 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,950 prioritization, making sure they're working on important 512 00:34:07,950 --> 00:34:16,770 things. But them as a person is a huge area for optimizing 513 00:34:16,770 --> 00:34:20,370 further attention to us kind of, you know, more more techie words 514 00:34:20,370 --> 00:34:25,770 there, but it's a, I think that's just, that's the key to 515 00:34:25,770 --> 00:34:31,050 is like really caring about them as a person, giving them time to 516 00:34:31,050 --> 00:34:37,260 do what they need to do. And, and also, you know, with the 517 00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:40,170 amount of work that you're putting on people and what 518 00:34:40,170 --> 00:34:44,010 you're asking of them, making sure that they understand the 519 00:34:44,010 --> 00:34:49,260 why of it, making sure that they understand, you know, if there 520 00:34:49,260 --> 00:34:52,410 is a deadline, why is there a deadline, and if it's 521 00:34:52,410 --> 00:34:55,230 artificial, which many are which is totally fine, because it 522 00:34:55,230 --> 00:34:59,970 helps you segment work. Let them understand that. You know, if it 523 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,920 isn't done on the first, nothing blows up on the second. Like, 524 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,280 it's okay, if it doesn't make it but like, that's what we're 525 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,630 shooting for. So let's like reasonable under certain 526 00:35:12,630 --> 00:35:17,010 reasonable estimations of what time things will take to get 527 00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:24,210 done, the ability to control that workflow, so that they, you 528 00:35:24,210 --> 00:35:26,880 know, they understand why it's getting done, what's the core 529 00:35:26,910 --> 00:35:30,510 thing that they're trying to do, and then they're the ones doing 530 00:35:30,510 --> 00:35:33,840 it, they have the best knowledge about how it works. So if 531 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,540 there's something that needs to get cut, or gets reworked, they 532 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:41,010 need to be empowered to be able to do it, to make it fit within, 533 00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:44,220 you know, the agreed upon timeline that we've set aside 534 00:35:44,220 --> 00:35:49,290 for doing that thing. So I think it's empowerment, at work, it's 535 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:54,600 support on their personal lives. And, and you don't have to be 536 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,430 best friends in order to do that, like, you know, it's I'm 537 00:35:59,430 --> 00:36:03,450 not trying to say like, you have to be as soft as possible in 538 00:36:03,450 --> 00:36:07,560 like, in, you know, just hang out with all of your coworkers. 539 00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:14,490 This is very much work related. And, you know, there's a lot of 540 00:36:14,490 --> 00:36:16,950 things that I don't know about people because they have their 541 00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:21,090 personal lives. And I'm at work, and they have personal lives. 542 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,850 And like, I think that's one of the big things is making sure 543 00:36:23,850 --> 00:36:27,450 that you've got a distinction there, they've got work 544 00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:29,640 relationships, you've got good communication, because that's 545 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,630 essential to getting it done. But that they can go and take a 546 00:36:33,630 --> 00:36:36,660 sanity day and do their stuff. And they don't have to explain 547 00:36:36,660 --> 00:36:37,110 it away. 548 00:36:37,410 --> 00:36:41,070 Jason Baum: Trust trust from the organization, that you're hiring 549 00:36:41,070 --> 00:36:44,130 him that you're hiring adults. I think that's like the key. 550 00:36:44,220 --> 00:36:46,590 Everyone just wants to be treated like an adult. And I 551 00:36:46,590 --> 00:36:49,680 think we're the good organizations get that. I think 552 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,530 that's kind of that's, that's the summarize what I'm hearing 553 00:36:52,530 --> 00:36:55,440 is, you're treating people like adults that they can handle 554 00:36:55,470 --> 00:36:58,020 handle the workload, they can understand the workload, they 555 00:36:58,020 --> 00:37:03,240 can do it in their time and, and not feel pressured, but at the 556 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:06,630 same time know what the objectives are. I think that's 557 00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:10,080 all we want, right is to be seen and treated as adults. Yep. 558 00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:15,330 Yeah. I think that's a great, great place to kind of to end. 559 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,170 Mason, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, we do ask 560 00:37:19,170 --> 00:37:23,610 one last question. And this is kind of more, you know, we are 561 00:37:23,610 --> 00:37:27,630 about the human side. So this is kind of getting to know you. I 562 00:37:27,630 --> 00:37:31,020 love this one last question. If you could be remembered for one 563 00:37:31,020 --> 00:37:32,370 thing, what would it be? 564 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,240 Mason Mclead: I mean, the first thing that popped in my head was 565 00:37:37,260 --> 00:37:38,220 for being kind. 566 00:37:39,150 --> 00:37:43,200 Jason Baum: That's awesome. I love that. I love that. Yeah, I 567 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,590 think we need a lot of kindness in this world, especially right 568 00:37:46,590 --> 00:37:50,700 now. And I think this world would be a completely different 569 00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:56,310 place. If, if more people saw it that way, for sure. Mason, thank 570 00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:58,590 you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time. 571 00:37:58,590 --> 00:38:02,280 Really appreciate it. Appreciate everything you had to say. This 572 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,000 was such a timely topic. And it was a lot of fun talking about 573 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:06,060 it 574 00:38:06,060 --> 00:38:08,160 Mason Mclead: with you. Yeah. Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it. 575 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:09,270 And thanks 576 00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:10,980 Jason Baum: for listening to this episode of the humans of 577 00:38:10,980 --> 00:38:14,100 DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode the same way I 578 00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:17,130 always do, encouraging you to become a member of DevOps 579 00:38:17,130 --> 00:38:20,100 Institute to get access to even more great resources just like 580 00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:23,970 this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of 581 00:38:23,970 --> 00:38:26,400 all, stay human, live long and prosper. 582 00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:30,600 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 583 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,140 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 584 00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:37,500 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 585 00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:40,920 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 586 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:42,030 You belong