1 00:00:02,939 --> 00:00:05,819 Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a 2 00:00:05,819 --> 00:00:09,449 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,479 --> 00:00:13,829 knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the SK il framework. 4 00:00:16,590 --> 00:00:20,220 Sara Faatz: What the pandemic did was open up our homes to 5 00:00:20,220 --> 00:00:23,400 each other, right, you saw the human side and all of us. And to 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,010 me, I think that's one of the silver linings of everything 7 00:00:26,010 --> 00:00:28,320 we've been through because it shows there's so much more 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,920 dimension to everybody than just what you do in your day job. 9 00:00:33,690 --> 00:00:36,450 Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member 10 00:00:36,450 --> 00:00:40,680 experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:46,560 podcast. Welcome back. I hope you had another great week. And 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,600 if you didn't, that's okay, we're gonna make it a great 13 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,780 week. This week, I like to do that little mantra with myself, 14 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:54,090 my daughter or wife, we also this is going to be the best 15 00:00:54,090 --> 00:00:56,940 week we've ever had. And each one we really try. And I think 16 00:00:56,940 --> 00:01:01,170 we get close. And you know what, now that we're a few weeks into 17 00:01:01,170 --> 00:01:04,920 spring now, for the northern hemisphere, that means things 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,510 are starting to warm up and and start to grow. And I feel like 19 00:01:09,510 --> 00:01:13,170 that's especially coming out of winter, sometimes you have the 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,940 the winter blues, I think that's a it's it's a nice time of year, 21 00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:22,440 certainly I look forward to it. Weather getting nicer people 22 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,110 talking to each other, more socializing, you see them 23 00:01:25,110 --> 00:01:30,750 outside, and the COVID, winter is retreating as well, in many 24 00:01:30,750 --> 00:01:34,950 areas across the globe. And I think that's also allowing for 25 00:01:34,950 --> 00:01:38,760 us to interact again, in ways that we really haven't had a 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,630 chance to do not just through the winter, but over the past 27 00:01:42,630 --> 00:01:47,670 couple of years. So fittingly, on today's episode, we're taking 28 00:01:47,670 --> 00:01:51,360 a look at the human side of development, and a group of 29 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,270 individuals whose job it is to interact and be social for a 30 00:01:54,270 --> 00:01:59,370 living, which is daunting to some, I think you could say that 31 00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:03,270 would be a little tiring for many. But for I would assume for 32 00:02:03,270 --> 00:02:06,990 DEF rails, it must be something that gets them going in the 33 00:02:06,990 --> 00:02:10,980 morning excited and happy about for a living otherwise, I don't 34 00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:14,130 know how they do it. So we're gonna get into that and more on 35 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:18,810 today's podcast. And so Dev Rel that's that's a term that's been 36 00:02:18,810 --> 00:02:22,170 tossed around, it's getting, it's becoming more popular, we 37 00:02:22,170 --> 00:02:25,560 hear frequently. But I don't know if many of us know, the 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,310 textbook definition. So I, I looked up a bunch, and there's 39 00:02:29,310 --> 00:02:33,270 so many but the one that I found that I really liked is the dev 40 00:02:33,270 --> 00:02:36,330 rel is essentially short for developer relations. And 41 00:02:36,630 --> 00:02:40,770 Developer Relations is pretty much exactly what that means a 42 00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:43,830 marketing policy that prioritizes relationships with 43 00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:48,030 developers. In general society, there's this word known for PR 44 00:02:48,030 --> 00:02:51,510 public relations. And you could essentially say that Dev Rel is 45 00:02:51,510 --> 00:02:55,230 the developer version of this, although that's incredibly 46 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,400 simple. You know, Dev Rel is the marketing technique used to 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,920 ensure that your company products and developers 48 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:05,850 establish a good continuous relationship with the external 49 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:09,390 developers through mutual communication. And that is very 50 00:03:09,390 --> 00:03:13,380 textbook. So we'll get into the non textbook definition of that 51 00:03:13,380 --> 00:03:18,540 with my guest, Sarah fats. And Sarah is here today. Sarah leads 52 00:03:18,540 --> 00:03:22,230 the developer relations team at progress. With more than 20 53 00:03:22,230 --> 00:03:24,720 years in the software development space. She's built 54 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,780 community partner content and influencer programs from the 55 00:03:27,780 --> 00:03:30,990 ground up. And when she's not working, she likes diving with 56 00:03:30,990 --> 00:03:35,190 sharks running and watching hockey. So she's really leading 57 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:38,910 a boring life, you could say, you know, diving with sharks. 58 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,500 Who doesn't do that? Right. So Sarah, welcome to the podcast. I 59 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:46,500 really hope we could talk about sharks, by the way towards the 60 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:47,850 end of this podcast. 61 00:03:47,879 --> 00:03:49,469 Sara Faatz: Thank you, Jason. Yeah, it's awesome to be here. 62 00:03:49,469 --> 00:03:52,289 And I will talk about sharks all day, every day, if you want to 63 00:03:52,289 --> 00:03:55,259 do that. I also love DevRel. So 64 00:03:55,770 --> 00:03:59,220 Jason Baum: there's that too, right? Yes. Yeah. Well, awesome. 65 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:02,580 Thanks so much for coming on the podcast, Sarah, and are you 66 00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:03,810 ready to get human? 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,730 Sara Faatz: I am ready. Let's do it. 68 00:04:06,060 --> 00:04:09,570 Jason Baum: Let's do it. So let's just start out, so I kind 69 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:17,370 of defined it. But you've got 20 years of experience in it. How 70 00:04:17,370 --> 00:04:21,000 have you seen dev rel? I didn't even know that developer 71 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,560 relations was really that that? Well, you know what, I actually 72 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,650 watched the movie Office Space the other day. And it's so 73 00:04:28,650 --> 00:04:31,740 funny, because they tried to I feel like define that. Like, 74 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,700 what was what is it that you do here? You know, lying just 75 00:04:35,700 --> 00:04:39,870 sticks out? And so what is it about dev rel? And how have you 76 00:04:39,870 --> 00:04:42,240 seen it evolve? And how do you define that? 77 00:04:42,270 --> 00:04:43,950 Sara Faatz: That's a great question. And it's funny because 78 00:04:43,980 --> 00:04:46,860 you know, and I tell people what I do when they asked me what do 79 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:50,100 you do for a living? Like I lead a DevRel team, you either get 80 00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:53,820 the blank stare or you get the especially outside of our space, 81 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,560 or you get so is that like customer service? And so really, 82 00:04:58,590 --> 00:05:03,030 you know, deverill has evolved a ton over the last 20 years, the, 83 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,450 the way I like to look at it is that the people on my team, 84 00:05:06,450 --> 00:05:09,600 they're responsible for interacting and being active 85 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,740 engaged members of the community in a very genuine and authentic 86 00:05:13,740 --> 00:05:16,830 way, right. So not, not because they're forced to be there, but 87 00:05:16,830 --> 00:05:19,620 because they truly have a passion for software and 88 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:23,370 technology, whether it's you know, and I have people on my 89 00:05:23,370 --> 00:05:26,670 team who have different areas of subject matter expertise. And 90 00:05:26,670 --> 00:05:29,670 they all have niches within the community that they spend a lot 91 00:05:29,670 --> 00:05:33,510 of time. While they're in the community and part of the 92 00:05:33,510 --> 00:05:37,740 community, they're advocating for software developers as a 93 00:05:37,740 --> 00:05:41,010 whole. They're also bringing information back to our product 94 00:05:41,010 --> 00:05:44,310 teams to help influence the product so that we, they can 95 00:05:44,490 --> 00:05:47,880 help be the voice of the developer community and say, 96 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,580 this is really what the community needs and wants. And 97 00:05:50,580 --> 00:05:54,420 vice versa, we can, you know, we do share what our products are 98 00:05:54,420 --> 00:05:58,560 about what they do. But, but it's really not the only focus, 99 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,400 right, there's a big chunk of what the team does, which is 100 00:06:02,430 --> 00:06:06,030 that is just about being, again, active, engaged members of the 101 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:09,030 community, being thought leaders, helping educate people 102 00:06:09,060 --> 00:06:15,090 about software, of all kinds, and not just not just particular 103 00:06:15,090 --> 00:06:19,710 front end frameworks, but things like accessibility and, and 104 00:06:19,830 --> 00:06:24,930 Design for Developers and topics like that, that are, you know, 105 00:06:25,350 --> 00:06:28,050 important in the development lifecycle in general. 106 00:06:29,220 --> 00:06:31,650 Jason Baum: So I, there's so much I want to talk about on 107 00:06:31,650 --> 00:06:35,280 today's podcast, it's so it's so interesting Dev Rel, and, you 108 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:39,000 know, I feel like, you know, as you said, it's evolved so much. 109 00:06:40,170 --> 00:06:42,720 The first thing I kind of want to address is there's a there's 110 00:06:42,750 --> 00:06:45,750 a stigma, there's a thought, I feel like out there that 111 00:06:46,050 --> 00:06:51,270 developers, engineers, you name it there, it's there. It's not 112 00:06:51,270 --> 00:06:54,930 social people. You know, that there, there are these 113 00:06:54,930 --> 00:06:59,670 introverts that are socially awkward and like to code and 114 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:04,170 stare at their computers and never come up for air? And if 115 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:05,190 that's not true, 116 00:07:05,250 --> 00:07:07,410 Sara Faatz: right, oh, no, it's not true. I mean, anything with 117 00:07:07,410 --> 00:07:12,690 anything? Humans, they find their tribe, right. And so when 118 00:07:12,690 --> 00:07:16,710 you even if you are, I actually just just came out of a meeting 119 00:07:16,710 --> 00:07:19,290 where we were talking about, you know, people who are extroverts 120 00:07:19,290 --> 00:07:22,380 versus introverts? And and how does that work? And how do we 121 00:07:22,380 --> 00:07:26,070 work together, even if you are more introverted, there are 122 00:07:26,070 --> 00:07:29,940 still absolutely ways to be part of a community and, and from a 123 00:07:29,940 --> 00:07:34,080 DevRel perspective, most of the people who find themselves in 124 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,030 deverill leaned more towards extraversion, but it's really, 125 00:07:39,030 --> 00:07:42,870 when you find a passion or an excitement for something, none 126 00:07:42,870 --> 00:07:45,120 of that really matters, right? Because what really matters is 127 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,720 that we have this this thing in common. And you can find that 128 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,140 people come out of their holes, and out of there, you know, when 129 00:07:52,140 --> 00:07:54,630 they have something that they that they're excited to talk 130 00:07:54,630 --> 00:07:55,830 about and share. 131 00:07:56,610 --> 00:08:02,190 Jason Baum: Yeah, you know, it's my, myself, I am I would lean 132 00:08:02,190 --> 00:08:06,510 toward I always say I'm a reluctant extrovert. You know, I 133 00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:10,860 can be very extrovert, I can see that. And I can turn it on and 134 00:08:10,860 --> 00:08:14,010 be incredibly social, but then I am usually exhausted. 135 00:08:15,060 --> 00:08:19,260 afterwards. My daughter is like, the, my daughter is very 136 00:08:19,260 --> 00:08:21,960 introverted, I would say in a group setting, but you get her 137 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,600 one on one or get her talking about a topic. And it's I mean, 138 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,420 she could tell you literally everything about frozen. I mean, 139 00:08:27,660 --> 00:08:33,720 a lot stop talking. When you bring up those topics. I get 140 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:34,440 what you're saying, 141 00:08:34,470 --> 00:08:36,990 Sara Faatz: yeah, yeah, it's funny, my husband's an engineer. 142 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:41,250 And people will often say that he's very quiet until you get 143 00:08:41,250 --> 00:08:45,270 him talking about boating or fishing, or aerospace or design 144 00:08:45,270 --> 00:08:48,900 or hockey. And our daughter is very much the same way. So she 145 00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:51,840 has, she has a little bit leans a little more towards the 146 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,050 extroverted side, on some things, but she's definitely 147 00:08:55,050 --> 00:08:57,210 more like him with regard to that. So yeah. 148 00:08:57,570 --> 00:09:01,140 Jason Baum: So let's talk about you a little bit. You know, how 149 00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:04,890 did your personal life really like shape those work goals for 150 00:09:04,890 --> 00:09:08,160 you, you know, how did you get into the developer relations 151 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:15,990 space? To talk about 20 years? Yeah, yeah. I that for with no 152 00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:19,950 social piece to it? Right, right. I mean, imagine that it 153 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:20,700 looked different. 154 00:09:21,149 --> 00:09:24,509 Sara Faatz: Yeah, that the space has evolved a ton. And when you 155 00:09:24,509 --> 00:09:29,639 look, when I look back at my career, it makes sense now, but 156 00:09:29,639 --> 00:09:32,999 to tell you that I that there was a deliberate path that took 157 00:09:32,999 --> 00:09:36,629 me to where I am right now is, would be a lie. Growing up as a 158 00:09:36,629 --> 00:09:39,419 kid, I was the middle child. And you know, my mom would talk 159 00:09:39,419 --> 00:09:42,479 about how my older brother was great at art. My younger brother 160 00:09:42,479 --> 00:09:44,609 was great at math and science. And she would pause when she 161 00:09:44,609 --> 00:09:46,949 would look at me and she'd say, Sarah, you're really good with 162 00:09:46,949 --> 00:09:49,349 people. And I used to laugh. I used to think it was a total cop 163 00:09:49,349 --> 00:09:54,539 out. And then I realized that she was not wrong in the sense 164 00:09:54,539 --> 00:09:58,229 that that people are it's where I get my energy. It's where I 165 00:09:58,259 --> 00:10:01,469 where my passion is, and I've always had that This huge 166 00:10:01,469 --> 00:10:04,589 passion for, for building community and being part of 167 00:10:04,589 --> 00:10:09,899 something bigger. And then in the, you know, fast forward to 168 00:10:11,189 --> 00:10:16,529 late 90s, when the internet boom was taking place, I fell in love 169 00:10:16,529 --> 00:10:21,389 with technology, I was working for a PR agency. And I remember 170 00:10:21,389 --> 00:10:23,369 coming home and again, you know, remember, my husband's an 171 00:10:23,369 --> 00:10:26,459 aerospace engineer, I come home from work one day, and I am 172 00:10:26,489 --> 00:10:29,759 talking a mile a minute, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, you know, we 173 00:10:29,759 --> 00:10:33,329 learned today that with a quest was putting in an all optical 174 00:10:33,329 --> 00:10:36,479 network, and with just two regeneration points from San 175 00:10:36,479 --> 00:10:39,569 Francisco to DC, they can, you know, transmit the entire 176 00:10:39,569 --> 00:10:42,059 library of congress in like two seconds or something like that. 177 00:10:42,089 --> 00:10:44,699 It looks to me like, slow down little film, you're not speaking 178 00:10:44,699 --> 00:10:48,719 my language, right. And what I realized was, I also had this 179 00:10:48,719 --> 00:10:52,259 passion for technology. And so to be able to marry the two, I 180 00:10:52,259 --> 00:10:56,699 feel incredibly fortunate to be able to, to talk about, about 181 00:10:56,699 --> 00:10:58,919 technology to be part of technology to be a part of a 182 00:10:58,919 --> 00:11:01,439 community that, you know, as I mentioned, before you find your 183 00:11:01,439 --> 00:11:04,319 tribe, right? I mean, I could, I could talk to you all day about, 184 00:11:04,529 --> 00:11:07,049 about technology and software development, just like I could 185 00:11:07,049 --> 00:11:09,539 talk to you all day about sharks, or hockey for that 186 00:11:09,539 --> 00:11:14,249 matter. So I just feel very, very fortunate that, that my 187 00:11:14,249 --> 00:11:18,479 path took me that way, way. And, and so that's how I got to 188 00:11:18,509 --> 00:11:23,579 Developer Relations space. And it's, it's been pretty magical 189 00:11:23,579 --> 00:11:24,059 since then, 190 00:11:24,239 --> 00:11:26,969 Jason Baum: it was the outreach. So I remember like, listservs 191 00:11:26,999 --> 00:11:32,819 and yeah, gosh, a ame. You know, everyone's a messenger in the 192 00:11:32,819 --> 00:11:37,019 group. Yes. And for the gens ears who are listening to this 193 00:11:37,019 --> 00:11:42,599 podcast probably have like no idea what that even is. You 194 00:11:42,599 --> 00:11:45,449 know, is that where you typically would find people? 195 00:11:45,630 --> 00:11:48,270 Sara Faatz: Oh, yes, yeah, we would find people there. But 196 00:11:48,270 --> 00:11:51,090 more than anything, we found people in person, like the old 197 00:11:51,090 --> 00:11:55,860 fashioned way. So there were, what's that? Right? Especially 198 00:11:55,860 --> 00:12:01,350 the last two years? That's a question. User Groups were a 199 00:12:01,350 --> 00:12:04,800 big, big part of the developer community. And they're still 200 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,890 things like meetups and, and we're finding people in 201 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:13,110 different ways now. But I was part of Microsoft had had an 202 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:15,300 organization that they started calling Netta, which was the 203 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:18,750 International Association. And it was an umbrella organization 204 00:12:18,750 --> 00:12:22,710 that was set up to support user groups around the world. And we 205 00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:26,220 would go and we would talk to people at user groups I was I 206 00:12:26,220 --> 00:12:29,550 was a volunteer for the organization, and talk about 207 00:12:29,550 --> 00:12:33,180 technology, pair up speakers with user groups. And you could 208 00:12:33,180 --> 00:12:35,970 get a user group meeting, you know, some of the larger ones in 209 00:12:35,970 --> 00:12:39,690 the heyday would have 200 people showing up for pizza and soda 210 00:12:39,690 --> 00:12:45,810 and just talking about dotnet, or, you know, C sharp or VB 211 00:12:45,810 --> 00:12:48,660 dotnet, for that matter. So you know, it was super exciting. 212 00:12:48,690 --> 00:12:53,490 And, and that was so we relied you still relied on technology, 213 00:12:53,490 --> 00:12:57,540 some and listservs, like you said, and but actually there I 214 00:12:57,540 --> 00:12:59,790 have some friends who could still tell you what their IC Q 215 00:12:59,790 --> 00:13:04,590 number was, because that was our our chat. But But yeah, I mean, 216 00:13:04,590 --> 00:13:08,070 it was a lot of in person interaction, going to 217 00:13:08,070 --> 00:13:10,860 conferences and events, and then the user groups and meetups. So 218 00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:11,040 yeah, 219 00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:13,679 Jason Baum: I'm wondering, do you think that's going to come 220 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,859 back? Because I feel like there is an itch to get out there. 221 00:13:17,309 --> 00:13:20,219 Breadman mentioned Gen Z, and actually, Gen Z of all the 222 00:13:20,219 --> 00:13:22,199 generations are probably the ones who are going to push for 223 00:13:22,199 --> 00:13:25,559 that in person, right, more than anyone. Yeah, 224 00:13:25,589 --> 00:13:27,929 Sara Faatz: 100%. I do. I think that there are one of the things 225 00:13:27,929 --> 00:13:32,099 we found over the last few years, as we were trying to 226 00:13:32,099 --> 00:13:35,159 still engage with community was that there are a lot of amazing 227 00:13:35,159 --> 00:13:38,909 tools available right now. And we spun up a Twitch channel. And 228 00:13:38,909 --> 00:13:42,779 we're, we're live streaming every day. Throughout the 229 00:13:42,779 --> 00:13:44,849 throughout the week, we have regular shows, we have long 230 00:13:44,849 --> 00:13:47,999 format streams, and engaging with people in chat there is 231 00:13:48,029 --> 00:13:51,629 awesome, but you still cannot replicate the one on one in 232 00:13:51,629 --> 00:13:54,629 person interaction that you get at a conference, we tried to 233 00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:58,019 replicate the hallway tracks through AR VR. We tried all 234 00:13:58,019 --> 00:14:01,769 different ways. And for some reason, when you are in a 235 00:14:01,769 --> 00:14:06,179 digital environment, it's really hard to I think people feel time 236 00:14:06,179 --> 00:14:09,629 constrained. They don't have the the energy that you get when 237 00:14:09,629 --> 00:14:13,139 you're in person. And so I do you think that we'll see a 238 00:14:13,139 --> 00:14:16,709 resurgence of that. And we're already seeing we have a number 239 00:14:16,709 --> 00:14:19,799 of events that we're will be participating in in person in 240 00:14:19,799 --> 00:14:23,459 April and May and the team is super, super excited about that. 241 00:14:24,090 --> 00:14:27,510 Jason Baum: You mentioned VR by the we did an episode on the 242 00:14:27,510 --> 00:14:34,260 metaverse where i i The company Modren actually sent me a an 243 00:14:34,260 --> 00:14:37,590 Oculus, I got to do it for the first time and jump into their 244 00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:41,430 workspace and I have to say it did feel more real than this 245 00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:48,300 which is odd because I for this is this is an audio podcast but 246 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,540 for those listening I am I'm looking at Sarah we are talking 247 00:14:51,540 --> 00:14:55,470 we're having a conversation I could see in real life, if you 248 00:14:55,470 --> 00:14:59,820 will, but it's still 2d. And and when when you get into that 249 00:14:59,820 --> 00:15:04,680 verse world. Even though I'm looking at a cartoon, it felt 250 00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:08,820 more real. Like I was actually there. So it's interesting. I 251 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:10,890 feel like we have that dual thing going on. Right? We have 252 00:15:10,890 --> 00:15:13,830 that that happening. And it will. Yeah. And then yeah, 253 00:15:13,830 --> 00:15:15,780 jumping back into into reality, 254 00:15:15,839 --> 00:15:18,209 Sara Faatz: we actually replicated the seventh floor of 255 00:15:18,209 --> 00:15:21,839 our office in Sofia, Bulgaria. And it has in, that's more of 256 00:15:21,839 --> 00:15:24,809 our hangout space. We have ping pong tables and all that we 257 00:15:24,809 --> 00:15:27,899 replicated that in a VR world. And we were able to we invited 258 00:15:27,899 --> 00:15:31,049 people in and we played ping pong, we, we threw chairs off 259 00:15:31,049 --> 00:15:33,569 the deck that we balcony, which we obviously wouldn't do in 260 00:15:33,569 --> 00:15:36,719 person. But it was really fun to have that that interaction. I 261 00:15:36,719 --> 00:15:40,469 think the the, the hardest part for us was that, you know, you 262 00:15:40,469 --> 00:15:43,109 talked about the Oculus, everybody has different headsets 263 00:15:43,109 --> 00:15:45,239 and different ways that they engage. And so until we have 264 00:15:45,239 --> 00:15:48,089 more and more unified approach to that, it's going to be harder 265 00:15:48,089 --> 00:15:51,059 to have that but it's definitely exciting. And it does, like you 266 00:15:51,059 --> 00:15:54,779 said it, it helps having, you know, being able to see even if 267 00:15:54,779 --> 00:15:59,609 you can't see their real legs, seeing people look like human is 268 00:15:59,609 --> 00:16:00,929 pretty short of a torso. 269 00:16:00,930 --> 00:16:04,170 Jason Baum: Yeah, right. Yeah, you know, what's interesting, I 270 00:16:04,170 --> 00:16:07,800 feel like what I was trying to nail down when I was in there, 271 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,920 trying to figure it all out what is what is what what is missing 272 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,030 still. And it's the ability to like, so I'm a community builder 273 00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:19,320 networker, by trade as well. And it's the ability to tap someone 274 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,140 on the shoulder while they're in mid conversation, literally 275 00:16:22,140 --> 00:16:26,520 interrupt them and jump in, or have your own conversation that 276 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,220 still doesn't exist. And that is an in person thing. We I don't 277 00:16:29,220 --> 00:16:31,020 think we'll ever be able to who knows, we probably 278 00:16:31,019 --> 00:16:33,029 Sara Faatz: Yeah, well think about it, too. When you're at a 279 00:16:33,029 --> 00:16:35,099 conference, and people are having a conversation in the 280 00:16:35,099 --> 00:16:38,339 hallway. If you walk up to people who are talking, you can 281 00:16:38,339 --> 00:16:41,759 tell by their features, if it's okay to jump in, or if it's more 282 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:47,489 of a private conversation, and an AR VR world. It's really, I 283 00:16:47,489 --> 00:16:49,859 mean, I remember feeling so incredibly rude because I 284 00:16:49,859 --> 00:16:55,079 actually walked through one of my co workers. And, and yeah, 285 00:16:55,079 --> 00:16:55,229 for 286 00:16:55,230 --> 00:16:57,180 Jason Baum: that you can actually for those, listen, you 287 00:16:57,180 --> 00:17:00,630 can actually walk through someone that is a real thing. 288 00:17:00,630 --> 00:17:01,560 That's not like, 289 00:17:02,129 --> 00:17:03,569 Sara Faatz: right, and it's awful when you do it cuz I'm 290 00:17:03,569 --> 00:17:05,759 like, Oh my gosh, that was so rude. I would never walk through 291 00:17:05,759 --> 00:17:10,409 somebody in person, but couldn't see their you can't see their 292 00:17:10,409 --> 00:17:13,769 expressions or their body language. So I think once that 293 00:17:13,799 --> 00:17:17,909 is, is to a point where where we can replicate that, then it's 294 00:17:17,909 --> 00:17:18,809 gonna get really real. 295 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:20,969 Jason Baum: You can see hand movements. So if you're really 296 00:17:20,969 --> 00:17:27,389 did anger them, I think you'd get a gesture. True. Today's 297 00:17:27,389 --> 00:17:31,409 episode of the humans of DevOps podcast is sponsored by collide 298 00:17:31,619 --> 00:17:34,559 collide is an endpoint security solution that sends your 299 00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:38,069 employees important and timely security recommendations for 300 00:17:38,069 --> 00:17:41,909 their Linux, Mac and Windows devices right inside Slack 301 00:17:41,999 --> 00:17:45,359 collide is perfect for organizations that care deeply 302 00:17:45,389 --> 00:17:49,139 about compliance and security, but don't want to get there by 303 00:17:49,139 --> 00:17:51,569 locking down devices to the point where they become 304 00:17:51,599 --> 00:17:55,799 unusable, instead of frustrating your employees collide educates 305 00:17:55,799 --> 00:17:59,459 them about security, and device management while directing them 306 00:17:59,459 --> 00:18:03,299 to fix important problems. 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What other initiatives is progress doing that you're 313 00:18:38,489 --> 00:18:41,489 most proud of that focus on the human side of software? 314 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,000 Sara Faatz: Yeah, you know, progress is one of the things 315 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,520 that I'm proud of is that we really do put people first not 316 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,010 just our employees, but but people in general, which is, 317 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,000 which is amazing. You know, with all the things that are going on 318 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:59,040 in Ukraine right now, progress has committed to donating 319 00:18:59,070 --> 00:19:02,130 $100,000 to the World Health Organization, emergency appeal 320 00:19:02,130 --> 00:19:07,230 for Ukraine. But on top of that, my team last week did a live 321 00:19:07,230 --> 00:19:11,790 stream where it was a charity to benefit the same organization, 322 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:14,490 where we talked about we actually talked about the human 323 00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:17,730 side of software. We talked about gaps, not you know, 324 00:19:17,730 --> 00:19:20,700 knowledge gaps, and how to fix them, gender gaps, all of those 325 00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:24,960 kinds of things. We talked about how to research new 326 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,660 technologies, all of that, but what was really exciting to me 327 00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:31,200 was that the community came together and donated over $5,000 328 00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:32,340 to that organization. 329 00:19:33,090 --> 00:19:35,340 Jason Baum: Congratulations on that. Thank you. It's fantastic. 330 00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:40,350 Sara Faatz: Yeah, I mean, it's it's it was one of those one of 331 00:19:40,350 --> 00:19:44,310 those days where I think everybody was there were tears 332 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,750 on on the Livestream, because we felt like we were really 333 00:19:49,230 --> 00:19:51,480 honestly doing something that hopefully will make a difference 334 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,170 in people's lives. And again, talking about your tribe and 335 00:19:55,170 --> 00:20:00,210 bringing people together. This was a community endeavor. Right, 336 00:20:00,210 --> 00:20:02,760 this wasn't you know, we were hosting it, but the community 337 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,990 came together and did that. And that's that really, it just, it 338 00:20:06,990 --> 00:20:09,720 was a pretty amazing feeling to be part of something like that. 339 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,740 So, you know, from the human side, those kinds of things are 340 00:20:13,740 --> 00:20:19,230 great. We have scholarships, you know, the progress women in STEM 341 00:20:19,230 --> 00:20:25,320 series of scholarships, which is fantastic. Mary Kay scholarship 342 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,470 and women for STEM as part of that it's a $10,000.04 year 343 00:20:28,470 --> 00:20:30,990 renewable scholarship for women in Massachusetts, because our 344 00:20:31,050 --> 00:20:34,410 corporate headquarters are based there. And we just announced one 345 00:20:34,410 --> 00:20:39,150 in India as well. So yeah, I mean, it's when we think about 346 00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:47,760 how progress responds to the world, and thinks about as a as 347 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,710 an organization, and a corporation thinks about the 348 00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:53,640 humans, who are part of everything, it really it's 349 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,610 exciting to me to be part of something like that. Yeah, 350 00:20:56,609 --> 00:20:59,039 Jason Baum: that's that sounds great. And yet a company that 351 00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:01,589 doesn't keep its head in the sand isn't afraid to get into 352 00:21:01,589 --> 00:21:05,189 what's going on in the world. I think it's I think that's really 353 00:21:05,189 --> 00:21:07,859 important. And we all have a role to play, right? 354 00:21:08,099 --> 00:21:09,899 Sara Faatz: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, I think 355 00:21:09,899 --> 00:21:12,689 one of the things that pandemic has shown us all is that there 356 00:21:12,689 --> 00:21:16,889 is a human side to everything that we do, right. I mean, I, I 357 00:21:16,889 --> 00:21:20,459 was a remote employee for I joke that I was remote before remote 358 00:21:20,459 --> 00:21:23,279 was cool. But I was a remote employee before you came here to 359 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:30,719 hit Yeah. And it's before COVID hit, you know, it was I used to, 360 00:21:30,749 --> 00:21:33,449 I'm sure you saw, I'm sure probably all of your listeners, 361 00:21:33,479 --> 00:21:36,839 listeners saw the gentleman who did that interview a few years 362 00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:39,869 back on television, then his child comes in on a little 363 00:21:39,869 --> 00:21:42,389 Walker, and, you know, he's trying to get them out. If you 364 00:21:42,389 --> 00:21:46,019 had asked my daughter, what I look like, when I was on a call, 365 00:21:46,139 --> 00:21:50,339 it was usually it's gonna be you know, like, hand gestures, you 366 00:21:50,339 --> 00:21:52,889 know, I'm on the phone, whispering and all of those 367 00:21:52,889 --> 00:21:58,619 things. And what the pandemic did was open up, open up our 368 00:21:58,619 --> 00:22:02,519 homes to each other. Right, you saw, you saw the human side and 369 00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:07,139 all of us. And, and, to me, I think that's one of the silver 370 00:22:07,139 --> 00:22:09,779 linings of everything we've been through, because it shows that 371 00:22:09,779 --> 00:22:13,139 people are, there's so much more dimension to everybody than just 372 00:22:13,289 --> 00:22:14,609 what you do in your day job. 373 00:22:15,539 --> 00:22:18,389 Jason Baum: Definitely, I couldn't subscribe to that more. 374 00:22:18,419 --> 00:22:23,429 I think a lot of us feel that way. And certainly, I mean, the 375 00:22:23,429 --> 00:22:27,869 theme of this podcast, you know, the humans of DevOps, we don't 376 00:22:27,869 --> 00:22:33,779 talk. Tech here. We don't we don't get into, you know, too, 377 00:22:33,809 --> 00:22:38,399 too technical. We talk human, we talk about the issues that are 378 00:22:38,399 --> 00:22:42,509 going on. So yeah, I think we speak the same language. Yeah, 379 00:22:42,539 --> 00:22:46,409 we kind of touched on this a little bit. But, you know, we 380 00:22:46,409 --> 00:22:50,789 talked about how it was, what about today? You know, how has 381 00:22:50,789 --> 00:22:55,139 accessibility played into the human side of development today? 382 00:22:55,260 --> 00:22:57,060 Sara Faatz: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, when you 383 00:22:57,060 --> 00:23:00,810 think about, and again, I'm gonna go back to the pandemic, 384 00:23:01,410 --> 00:23:04,470 there were, prior to the pandemic, we had apps that were 385 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,100 apps of convenience, right, you know, it was, it was convenient 386 00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:11,520 to order my groceries ahead of time, or order a cup of coffee, 387 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:15,810 or even engage with my doctor, it was, you could do that on 388 00:23:15,810 --> 00:23:20,580 your phone, on a mobile device, when the pandemic hits, some of 389 00:23:20,580 --> 00:23:23,250 those things that were apps of convenience, all of a sudden 390 00:23:23,250 --> 00:23:27,210 became apps of necessity. And, and one of the things that that 391 00:23:27,210 --> 00:23:33,090 did is open up the understanding that if we don't democratize our 392 00:23:33,090 --> 00:23:36,720 apps, they're not going to be able to be, you know, these apps 393 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,770 of necessity won't be usable by, you know, one in five people 394 00:23:40,770 --> 00:23:43,830 have a disability of some sort, and every single one of us will 395 00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:46,890 have a disability at some point in our lives, right. So that 396 00:23:46,890 --> 00:23:50,640 could just be you know, that you, you know, you broke your 397 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,450 arm, right, it could be that you had your eyes dilated, and 398 00:23:54,450 --> 00:23:56,790 you're wearing those big, you know, dark glasses, and you 399 00:23:56,790 --> 00:24:01,200 can't see things very well. But what that showed us is that our 400 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,370 reliance on reliance on technology gets as that becomes 401 00:24:05,370 --> 00:24:09,960 more ubiquitous with with the world we're living in. It's that 402 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,170 much more imperative that we are thinking and developing with an 403 00:24:13,170 --> 00:24:17,220 accessibility mindset first. And I think for developers, it's 404 00:24:17,220 --> 00:24:20,940 hard because sometimes you say accessibility, and there's this 405 00:24:20,970 --> 00:24:24,300 overwhelming sense of, oh, my gosh, what does that mean? What 406 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:27,270 how do I really do that? But it's things like thinking about, 407 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,840 you know, pinch and zoom and making sure that we're able to 408 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,070 do that, thinking about the time limits on forms that they're 409 00:24:35,070 --> 00:24:40,140 creating, right, and making sure that if somebody has a has a 410 00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:44,070 disability, that means that they need to take more time to fill 411 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:47,010 out that form, that we're not time limiting them by, you know, 412 00:24:47,010 --> 00:24:49,800 that we're giving a generous amount of time. So it's all of 413 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,760 those things that I think that again, silver lining of the 414 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,300 pandemic has pushed us to really start thinking about, how do we 415 00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:00,690 make sure that that everybody can use The technology that 416 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:02,670 we're creating. Yeah, I 417 00:25:02,670 --> 00:25:05,970 Jason Baum: love what you just said. And I think that goes back 418 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:11,040 to even the previous question and answer is, we're actually 419 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,280 taking time and thinking about what people need and want and 420 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,480 it's not pushed to the, you know, for the longest time, it 421 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,360 just would be. We don't have time to think about that stuff, 422 00:25:21,420 --> 00:25:22,980 right? We need to think about everything. We need to make 423 00:25:22,980 --> 00:25:26,430 money, we need to think about everything else. And we ignore 424 00:25:26,430 --> 00:25:30,810 people. And right people are the ones. headcount used to be how 425 00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:33,690 you describe staff, you know, like, right, even even staff, 426 00:25:33,690 --> 00:25:35,400 it's the people who work for you. Right, 427 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,390 Sara Faatz: right. 100%? Yeah, yeah. Actually, we believe that 428 00:25:39,390 --> 00:25:42,930 so much progress that our human resources team is actually 429 00:25:42,930 --> 00:25:46,350 called the people team, like we don't, we don't think about it 430 00:25:46,350 --> 00:25:48,780 as human resources. It is they are the people team, they're 431 00:25:48,780 --> 00:25:52,650 there to talk and help our people and which is a pretty 432 00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:54,930 awesome mindset, I think. 433 00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:57,660 Jason Baum: I think so too. I think it's about time that we 434 00:25:57,660 --> 00:26:00,480 made that shift. You know, we talked to someone who told me, 435 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,640 like, for the longest time in their career, they weren't 436 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,550 allowed to talk about themselves. I was like, Wow, 437 00:26:05,550 --> 00:26:07,860 that's fascinating. And it's like, we I feel like we're 438 00:26:07,860 --> 00:26:11,640 making that pivot. Right now. We're, you know, each generation 439 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,920 each time here, we you constantly go through these 440 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,430 shifts and changes. And I think this is a big one, that in a few 441 00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:19,680 years from now, we're going to look back and say this was this 442 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,080 was a big change in workforce. 443 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,600 Sara Faatz: Right, right. 100% agree with that. Yeah. 444 00:26:24,990 --> 00:26:28,380 Jason Baum: So what are some steps that organizations can 445 00:26:28,380 --> 00:26:30,930 take to improve developer relations? 446 00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:33,870 Sara Faatz: You know, I think, I think thinking about developer 447 00:26:33,870 --> 00:26:42,150 relations as as a unnecessary discipline, that it's hard to 448 00:26:42,150 --> 00:26:45,060 measure. So let me let me back up. One of the things when 449 00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:48,120 people talk about developer relations for a long time, there 450 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,660 was this, it was kind of in this nebulous area, should it be part 451 00:26:51,660 --> 00:26:53,820 of a sales organization? Should it be part of the marketing 452 00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:57,360 organization? Where does it live? And when you you know, you 453 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,840 were talking about headcount? Initially, people were like, if 454 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,080 we can't justify the spend that it costs to have people on staff 455 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,720 who are subject matter experts and traveling to conferences, 456 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,260 and then you know what, maybe we just disband it and get rid of 457 00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:14,610 it. What people what we've had to learn on our end is, how do 458 00:27:14,610 --> 00:27:18,630 we measure what we do? Right? And how do we? So when you think 459 00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:21,060 about how can an organization improve their developer 460 00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:24,000 relations? First, they have to understand why they're doing it. 461 00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:28,440 Right. So the purpose for for our team is, you know, to be 462 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,380 that conduit between the developers and developer 463 00:27:31,380 --> 00:27:34,350 community and our product teams and our organization in a 464 00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:38,610 really, again, natural, natural way, right? And being being the 465 00:27:38,610 --> 00:27:41,820 voice for for the community, even if it's not necessarily 466 00:27:41,820 --> 00:27:45,360 popular with what the general thinking, Is it from an 467 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,060 organizational perspective, and vice versa? How do we kind of 468 00:27:48,060 --> 00:27:52,710 have that two way conversation? So we sat down and really 469 00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:57,030 thought, how do we, how do we measure this so that it's not 470 00:27:58,260 --> 00:28:01,350 just a collection of vanity metrics, but it shows value to 471 00:28:01,350 --> 00:28:05,010 the business, while also showing value to the community? And so 472 00:28:05,010 --> 00:28:08,130 the one thing that we really thought about is, is that 473 00:28:08,130 --> 00:28:11,760 engagement, right, I don't, I don't care if we're reaching 4 474 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,230 million people, if really, what I really need is to have 475 00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:21,030 engagement with this core group of developers, who are I'm 476 00:28:21,030 --> 00:28:23,940 providing valuable value to them and vice versa, right. So we 477 00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:28,860 look at, we look at engagement rates, we look at how many chat 478 00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:31,440 messages are we exchanging, we stopped using our social 479 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,280 channels as megaphones to just yell at people. And we actually 480 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,380 have conversations with people. So I think thinking about and 481 00:28:40,380 --> 00:28:44,190 truly understanding why you're doing Developer Relations is and 482 00:28:44,190 --> 00:28:48,060 what your expected value is from that is probably the first step 483 00:28:48,060 --> 00:28:52,110 that most of us organizations can take, you know, knowing your 484 00:28:52,110 --> 00:28:53,370 why knowing your purpose. 485 00:28:55,170 --> 00:29:00,660 Jason Baum: Yeah, that's knowing your purpose. You know, we 486 00:29:00,660 --> 00:29:04,650 talked about accessibility, right? And then and into what 487 00:29:04,650 --> 00:29:07,470 you just said, I mean, there's also that trust factor that you 488 00:29:07,470 --> 00:29:09,930 got to build, right, you got to be authentic with what you're 489 00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:14,460 saying. And so we talked about accessibility, what about 490 00:29:14,460 --> 00:29:18,990 sustainability? How does that play into the human side of 491 00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:19,620 development? 492 00:29:19,649 --> 00:29:22,649 Sara Faatz: Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to genuinely 493 00:29:22,649 --> 00:29:29,609 being in any community if you're not genuine to your beliefs and 494 00:29:31,499 --> 00:29:34,169 your you won't be successful a community will sniff that out. 495 00:29:34,169 --> 00:29:37,559 The faking it just because it's popular is not, you know, 496 00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:41,100 Jason Baum: yeah. You know, when someone's not authentic, right. 497 00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:44,790 Sara Faatz: So, you know, from a sustainability perspective, we 498 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,560 progress itself has taken a step back and looked at things like 499 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,000 when we're sending out prizes, you know, are we are we are we 500 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,860 being good stewards of the environment and making sure that 501 00:29:58,860 --> 00:30:04,830 we are You know, or do we have excessive packaging? Or we, you 502 00:30:04,830 --> 00:30:08,190 know, are there simple ways that we could send out prizes or 503 00:30:08,190 --> 00:30:11,010 awards or community gifts without, without hurting the 504 00:30:11,010 --> 00:30:13,350 environment? Or they're, you know, we take a step back, and 505 00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:16,650 we look at that. I think that, you know, we've done some things 506 00:30:16,650 --> 00:30:19,440 within our office spaces, and we're looking at different ways, 507 00:30:19,470 --> 00:30:22,800 especially, you know, as we return to office in some form or 508 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:31,080 fashion, are there ways that we can be provide access to, to 509 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,640 office space without access? Right. So, you know, so I think 510 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,330 that, from a sustainability perspective, it really goes back 511 00:30:39,330 --> 00:30:42,420 to truly thinking about what your beliefs are, knowing your 512 00:30:42,420 --> 00:30:46,860 purpose there, and, and not just talking about it, but doing it. 513 00:30:46,860 --> 00:30:50,700 So, you know, we try very hard we to walk the walk as much as 514 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:51,630 we were talking the talk 515 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,260 Jason Baum: actions very much often are louder than words, 516 00:30:55,260 --> 00:31:02,010 right? Absolutely. Yep. Yep. So what does the sustainable and 517 00:31:02,010 --> 00:31:04,920 accessible future in tech look like? 518 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,370 Sara Faatz: That is a great question. So I think, you know, 519 00:31:08,460 --> 00:31:12,750 an accessible future in tech means rethinking, obviously, 520 00:31:12,750 --> 00:31:15,300 coming to coming to the development table with it and 521 00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:20,700 accessibility. First mindset. But that also means when we're 522 00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:24,090 teaching and training developers from an early stage, that we're 523 00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:26,460 also building that into the process, because I think, as I 524 00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:30,180 mentioned, when you bring accessibility to the table, to 525 00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:33,330 somebody who's been doing this for years, I think there's this 526 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,770 overwhelming sense of, I don't know how to do that. Right. And 527 00:31:37,770 --> 00:31:41,670 and it really is, there's, there are a lot of very basic things, 528 00:31:41,970 --> 00:31:44,910 you know, and part of that's just an education thing, and 529 00:31:44,910 --> 00:31:48,210 that education is actually the same answer for sustainability. 530 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:52,080 Right. I think that, that educating developers on what, 531 00:31:52,410 --> 00:31:55,860 how do we build sustainable software? How do we build? How 532 00:31:55,860 --> 00:31:58,590 are the environments that we're working in sustainable? How are 533 00:31:58,590 --> 00:32:02,340 we thinking about how we're engaging the community, and, and 534 00:32:02,370 --> 00:32:06,570 all of that comes back down to, to education, right. And so if 535 00:32:06,570 --> 00:32:10,980 we, we take a step back, and I think the younger generations 536 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,560 have an advantage at this point, because I think this is 537 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,790 something that's more part of our, our culture. But I think 538 00:32:17,790 --> 00:32:20,790 for people who, who are in the have been in business for a 539 00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:23,520 while and established in their careers, it's really just kind 540 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,520 of taking a reset. And looking at both of those things. It's 541 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,580 not that they didn't care about them before, but there wasn't 542 00:32:29,580 --> 00:32:33,030 this intersection between our personal beliefs and our actual 543 00:32:33,540 --> 00:32:36,600 subject matter expertise, right. So I think as our world blends 544 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,740 and, and work in home, and personal, all become one, as we 545 00:32:40,740 --> 00:32:44,130 look at the human, as a, as a whole, in a, you know, three 546 00:32:44,130 --> 00:32:48,540 dimensional existence. I think that that's where that education 547 00:32:48,540 --> 00:32:49,980 and training becomes really important. 548 00:32:51,089 --> 00:32:53,189 Jason Baum: You know, for those who listened to the podcast, I 549 00:32:53,219 --> 00:32:57,209 often bring up my daughter, and parenting because I feel like 550 00:32:57,329 --> 00:33:01,019 many things that we deal with in issues that we deal with in the 551 00:33:01,019 --> 00:33:05,279 workforce, or just in life can often go just go back to a 552 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:11,279 parenting skill 100%. And I think about, so my daughter's 553 00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:15,239 four and a half. She misses a cut off. So she'll, she has 554 00:33:15,239 --> 00:33:18,929 another, you know, year to go for kindergarten. But we're 555 00:33:18,929 --> 00:33:22,469 teaching them the transition, right? She's in preschool or pre 556 00:33:22,469 --> 00:33:27,719 K. And it's a very hard transition of home school, how 557 00:33:27,719 --> 00:33:30,599 you act in two different environments. It's so 558 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:36,149 interesting, because it's like, telling someone who has no frame 559 00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:39,329 of reference that they can't act a certain way in one area is a 560 00:33:39,329 --> 00:33:43,139 very, it's like, what, why I don't get it. And I feel like as 561 00:33:43,139 --> 00:33:46,049 a society, we don't get it either. It's like we're trying 562 00:33:46,049 --> 00:33:50,009 to basically unlearn some of that, too. I think it's good 563 00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:53,249 that we're going through this, because it does seem silly that 564 00:33:53,339 --> 00:33:56,849 of course, you can't like scream out in the middle of a lesson at 565 00:33:56,849 --> 00:34:00,359 school and you're not going to go around work telling at the 566 00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:03,779 most personal thing about you that might be incriminating or 567 00:34:03,809 --> 00:34:06,389 weird, or I don't know, like, you're just there's just things 568 00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:11,279 you don't say, right. But there are things that we can share and 569 00:34:11,279 --> 00:34:14,639 there and we shouldn't be human. Right. 570 00:34:14,670 --> 00:34:16,680 Sara Faatz: Yeah, yeah. Because at the end of the day, we are 571 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,490 all human right? And when you start can look at I think this 572 00:34:20,490 --> 00:34:23,580 is probably an hopefully the next step in the evolution in 573 00:34:25,110 --> 00:34:28,650 the changes that are happening in society, I think, when we can 574 00:34:28,650 --> 00:34:30,900 stop and understand that everybody has human right and 575 00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:33,840 see their vulnerabilities and see who they are. We also can 576 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,570 start to understand intent, right? So by understanding 577 00:34:36,570 --> 00:34:39,630 intent, you you aren't necessarily going to be offended 578 00:34:39,630 --> 00:34:43,320 by something that somebody said over here because you understand 579 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,080 where they're coming from. Right and so and but I also agree with 580 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,120 you as a parent, yes, there are things you know, my I mentioned 581 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,840 to you, I think, hockey I love watching hockey. My daughter is 582 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,810 a is an ice hockey player. She's actually we actually leave next 583 00:34:57,810 --> 00:35:01,710 week for Philadelphia. She's playing in the US, USA Hockey 584 00:35:01,710 --> 00:35:04,320 national. Oh, wow, that's awesome. And yeah, thank you 585 00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:07,020 good luck to her. Thank you. We're super excited about that. 586 00:35:07,020 --> 00:35:10,890 But you know, as a, as an athlete, and even growing up, 587 00:35:10,890 --> 00:35:15,570 she's been playing hockey since she was four. She has been 588 00:35:15,570 --> 00:35:17,700 around hockey, she heard some things in the locker room, you 589 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:21,060 know, with the older kids, and now she is an older kid. But I, 590 00:35:22,110 --> 00:35:24,840 we've always said, there's a time and a place for things 591 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,120 right, you know, and so you do, you do still have to have 592 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,820 boundaries? There's no question about that. But to think that 593 00:35:29,850 --> 00:35:33,870 any of us is just what we do at work, or just what we do at home 594 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,440 is very silly. And I think, again, the pandemic has opened 595 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,470 up, you and I are sitting here and I'm seeing, you know, the 596 00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:44,070 inside of your office, you're seeing mine, usually I would 597 00:35:44,070 --> 00:35:46,800 have it's spring break here. So I had to let everybody know, you 598 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,080 and I are talking. So please don't come into the office. But 599 00:35:49,350 --> 00:35:52,440 you know, they're usually there's a dog who walks in, or 600 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,870 my daughter who checks in or something along those lines. So, 601 00:35:55,110 --> 00:35:58,320 you know, I think that those, we do have to find that balance. 602 00:35:58,650 --> 00:36:01,260 Jason Baum: Definitely. And I think that we are and I think 603 00:36:01,260 --> 00:36:04,620 we're all trying to figure it out together. And it's, it is 604 00:36:04,650 --> 00:36:07,560 goes back to what we were saying before, this is a very unique 605 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,660 time, and I hope it changes a lot of things. 606 00:36:09,870 --> 00:36:12,270 Sara Faatz: And I think it requires grace. Right? It 607 00:36:12,270 --> 00:36:17,250 requires us not to just give each other grace but to to 608 00:36:17,310 --> 00:36:20,460 expect you to give and get grace, right, you know, when we 609 00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:24,180 are the beauty of humans is that we are all flawed as well. 610 00:36:24,210 --> 00:36:26,730 Right? And so understanding that, and that goes back to I 611 00:36:26,730 --> 00:36:32,010 think my comment about intent as flawed humans, not everybody is 612 00:36:32,010 --> 00:36:36,090 set out to to do or say something that might offend you. 613 00:36:37,290 --> 00:36:40,110 You know, and so being able to take a step back and say okay, 614 00:36:41,340 --> 00:36:44,130 we are all nobody's perfect. How do we you know, how do we move 615 00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:45,690 forward and talk as humans? 616 00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:49,440 Jason Baum: Absolutely, it's seeing the lens from someone 617 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,350 else's viewpoint, seeing it through someone else's lens and 618 00:36:52,350 --> 00:36:55,290 Pathak leadership being you know, just being an empathetic 619 00:36:55,290 --> 00:36:58,800 person. Empathy is so important we talked about on this podcast 620 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,640 actually right before we left for the holidays and the new 621 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,280 year and I thought that was a great way to end the year and 622 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,410 yeah, set out this year myself, you know, making the effort of 623 00:37:10,410 --> 00:37:14,700 leading with empathy and I think for all of us figuring out how 624 00:37:14,730 --> 00:37:18,990 you know we can be empathetic peoples is very important. So 625 00:37:19,020 --> 00:37:23,280 that that now will transition the sharks just like that, I 626 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,180 believe in transition. Yeah, so So let's go back to that that 627 00:37:27,180 --> 00:37:30,960 bio and you're swimming with sharks. So is this like legit 628 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,200 swimming with so I've done the like, you dive down and there's 629 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,510 the steel cage or whatever, you know, all separating you. Is 630 00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:40,950 this like, is this that 631 00:37:40,979 --> 00:37:44,009 Sara Faatz: or this is this is real, like diving underwater 632 00:37:44,009 --> 00:37:48,119 with sharks. So my, my husband and I have been divers for a 633 00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:50,669 long time. And actually our daughter is a divers, she her 634 00:37:50,669 --> 00:37:56,459 10th birthday, she got certified to dive. And we, I It's funny 635 00:37:56,459 --> 00:37:59,039 when I go out on a boat, and I see a shark on the surface. I 636 00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:01,859 don't think oh, you know what, I should jump in with that. But we 637 00:38:01,859 --> 00:38:05,339 seek out dive trips where we can actually go diving with sharks. 638 00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:12,809 We did an amazing trip to Cocos Island, where it was during a an 639 00:38:12,869 --> 00:38:17,849 off year for sharks in Cocos Island. But on one dive, we saw 640 00:38:18,149 --> 00:38:21,359 five different species of sharks and and we're sitting in this or 641 00:38:22,109 --> 00:38:26,399 we were underwater and kind of on this rock ledge. And we have 642 00:38:26,429 --> 00:38:31,289 a tiger shark swims through, which was a big shark. It was a 643 00:38:31,289 --> 00:38:35,309 massive shark and it was one of those ones where you just he let 644 00:38:35,309 --> 00:38:40,019 you know that he he commanded respect. Just so but we saw I'd 645 00:38:40,019 --> 00:38:47,999 say yeah. hammerheads black tip, white tip Galapagos sharks, blue 646 00:38:48,029 --> 00:38:52,979 gloves, a shark and then the the tiger shark. Which was, it was 647 00:38:52,979 --> 00:38:55,019 just an incredible experience. One of those things that I will 648 00:38:55,169 --> 00:39:01,139 never forget. We did a trip to Galapagos where we had hundreds 649 00:39:01,139 --> 00:39:05,699 of schooling hammerheads below us. And then when we were out on 650 00:39:05,819 --> 00:39:09,239 I think we're at either wolf or Darwin Island, you would go and 651 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:15,119 just again, hold on to the rocks as hammerheads swim by and this 652 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:18,389 goes back to my I wouldn't jump in with them. But I I do crazy 653 00:39:18,389 --> 00:39:20,519 things when I swim underwater and you're not supposed to hold 654 00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:24,479 your breath underwater, right when you're diving. If you're 655 00:39:24,509 --> 00:39:27,179 moving in within the water column, but I was sitting there 656 00:39:27,179 --> 00:39:29,249 and I this Hammerhead is swimming towards me and I 657 00:39:29,249 --> 00:39:32,609 thought and they're very skittish, right they so they're 658 00:39:32,609 --> 00:39:35,639 very scared by your bubbles. So I thought I wonder if I don't 659 00:39:35,639 --> 00:39:38,909 exhale, exhale my bubbles. How close will this Hammerhead get 660 00:39:38,909 --> 00:39:41,909 to me? Just not like a normal thought that most people have. 661 00:39:41,909 --> 00:39:46,229 But I did and I I mean, he came my husband got an amazing 662 00:39:46,229 --> 00:39:49,649 picture of of the Hammerhead it was it was beautiful. But it 663 00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:52,829 came probably two feet in front of me before I thought what am I 664 00:39:52,829 --> 00:39:57,179 doing and I excelled my bubbles and you know, you know swam away 665 00:39:57,179 --> 00:39:57,479 but 666 00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:01,020 Jason Baum: I'm like freaking out as you're Tell me this like 667 00:40:01,020 --> 00:40:05,730 I could feel my heart racing. That's that is. Wow. Well, good 668 00:40:05,730 --> 00:40:08,400 for you. I don't think I could do that. 669 00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:10,440 Sara Faatz: No, you know what there's so graceful underwater 670 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,020 and going back to intent. You know, as we're talking. I mean, 671 00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:17,010 sharks have to have such a bad rap and there are there are some 672 00:40:17,010 --> 00:40:21,030 that are definitely the tiger shark. I did not want to mess 673 00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:24,390 with and we had one dive in the Bahamas where it was a dusk die, 674 00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:29,040 which is great because you can they feed so everything's 675 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,470 feeding at that point. So you see a lot of a lot of life you 676 00:40:31,470 --> 00:40:33,840 Jason Baum: jumped into the water with feeding shark with 677 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,370 sharks that were like, oh, 678 00:40:35,370 --> 00:40:37,590 Sara Faatz: yeah, everything is feeding but yeah, there was a 679 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:42,540 there was a bull shark who was swimming just he was started to 680 00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:45,570 circle as we were finishing our safety stopped and we thought, 681 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,060 you know, I think it's probably time to get out like this is not 682 00:40:48,060 --> 00:40:52,050 what we want to mess with. But we've been on some incredible I 683 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,090 like I said, I could talk about this forever the dive diving 684 00:40:54,090 --> 00:40:57,300 with sharks. It's just, it's incredible. Yeah, 685 00:40:57,329 --> 00:40:59,879 Jason Baum: that's that sounds. That does sound incredible. 686 00:40:59,879 --> 00:41:05,789 Also, I think I I like panic. Just just hearing you say, I 687 00:41:05,939 --> 00:41:10,409 went on a my honeymoon was in Fiji. And every day at the 688 00:41:10,409 --> 00:41:13,889 resort, you get a little notice. And we went snorkeling because 689 00:41:13,889 --> 00:41:17,069 they finally convinced us to go and we went and it's beautiful. 690 00:41:17,069 --> 00:41:20,789 I mean, the full wreaths on touched. And then we get home. 691 00:41:20,849 --> 00:41:23,189 And you know, in the newsletter it said, you know, swim with 692 00:41:23,189 --> 00:41:28,169 friendly reef sharks. So we're friendly here. What do we know? 693 00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:31,379 And we get home and it Shark Week. And they're like the the 694 00:41:31,379 --> 00:41:34,199 actual world's most dangerous shark. And guess what the most 695 00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:39,689 human attacks whatever is the Fijian reef shark. Okay. Better. 696 00:41:39,689 --> 00:41:43,289 We didn't know that. Exactly, exactly. We're coming up at the 697 00:41:43,289 --> 00:41:48,269 end of the podcast. And I like to ask one thought provoking, 698 00:41:48,299 --> 00:41:53,039 usually personal question. So today's question for you is, 699 00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:57,569 what's something that everyone in your industry should stop or 700 00:41:57,569 --> 00:41:58,829 start doing? 701 00:41:59,850 --> 00:42:01,530 Sara Faatz: You know, I think I've said it probably a couple 702 00:42:01,530 --> 00:42:04,980 times here. But I definitely would say, from the developer 703 00:42:04,980 --> 00:42:10,740 perspective, I would, I would pause and approach all of your, 704 00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:13,980 all of your applications with an accessibility first mindset. I 705 00:42:13,980 --> 00:42:16,950 would broaden your scope and understanding of your audience. 706 00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:20,280 So a lot of times when people think about who am I creating 707 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,610 this application for, they think about, you know, personas, and 708 00:42:23,610 --> 00:42:26,610 they, you know, demographics, and all of that, but really 709 00:42:26,610 --> 00:42:30,030 understand that humans are the ones who are using our software, 710 00:42:30,210 --> 00:42:37,080 and understand that humans do have impairments or limitations 711 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,110 that we need to be developing for, so that we can democratize 712 00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:41,550 applications across the board. 713 00:42:42,420 --> 00:42:45,150 Jason Baum: Awesome. Sara, thank you so much for joining me on 714 00:42:45,150 --> 00:42:48,360 today's episode, I had a lot of fun talking to you about the 715 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,740 topics. And I feel like we could talk all day about Dev Rel but 716 00:42:52,740 --> 00:42:56,070 also shark. So thanks so much for coming on. 717 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:57,150 Sara Faatz: Thank you so much. I 718 00:42:57,150 --> 00:42:59,430 Jason Baum: really appreciate it. And thank you for listening 719 00:42:59,430 --> 00:43:02,730 to this episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end 720 00:43:02,730 --> 00:43:05,280 this episode the same way I always do encouraging you to 721 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,340 become a member of DevOps Institute to get access to even 722 00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:11,940 more great resources just like this one. Until next time, stay 723 00:43:11,940 --> 00:43:15,690 safe, stay healthy, and most of all, stay human, live long and 724 00:43:15,690 --> 00:43:16,140 prosper. 725 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,670 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 726 00:43:20,670 --> 00:43:24,240 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 727 00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:27,570 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 728 00:43:27,570 --> 00:43:30,420 time, remember, you aren't part of something bigger than 729 00:43:30,420 --> 00:43:32,070 yourself. You belong