Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the SK il framework.
Kainar Kamalov: First is compensation. The second is
team. And the third is like, what's the mission or project
that you're working on? If you have all three of them, you
believe in the mission and like the problems you're solving are
exciting. And I think like, that's an ideal environment.
Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member
experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps
podcast. So welcome back. It's another week, hope it was a good
one for you. And I'm really happy to have you back here
listening to the show. And on today's episode, it's sort of a
topic that's close to home for me. Communication. And we've
we've sort of gone around the topic of communication through
various ways. We've talked about proactive honesty, we've talked
about empathetic communication or empathic communication, I
should say. And, and we, we really never dove into
communication as a whole. So today, that's exactly what we're
going to do. And my guest today, Kiner Camelot is here to talk
about it with me and keiner is committed to helping humans make
the most of technology and helping engineers do their best
work. He's originally from OSH, Kyrgyzstan, and now resides in
Bishkek. He's an MIT graduate and publish expert on human
computer interactions, was a founding team member at B 12.
were created and led a distributed engineering team and
is currently director of engineering at pipe, which is a
recurring revenue trading platform, at pipe has focuses on
building new products, as well as recruiting and leading a team
of engineers distributed across the globe. And that's something
we're definitely going to get into also communication not just
in your own backyard, but communication when you have to
do it, like 12 hours past your bedtime. So, Kiner thank you so
much for joining me, and welcome to the humans of DevOps podcast.
Kainar Kamalov: Thank you, Jason. I'm very glad to be here.
I think it'll be an interesting topic for us to cover because
English is like the third or fourth language that I speak. So
for me, it takes a lot of effort to communicate well,
Jason Baum: I could say hello, and a few different languages. I
can order I can I can order things. That's the extent of my
my bilingual illness or trilingual illness. So very
important. Yeah, absolutely. And yes. Okay, so Kiner, are you
ready to get human? Oh, let's do it. I think we've already
started. So what does it take to be a good communicator in your
eyes?
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, this is such a multifaceted, big
question. And I think, for me, it's important. Like when I
think about a good communicator is someone who is a clear
communicator, a person that has thought through a problem before
jumping into answering the, you know, like proposing a solution
or answering the question. The other thing that I want to touch
on is that communication, a lot of the times it's not about just
saying something, but it's also being an active listener,
understanding the surroundings, right, and like, so in a lot of
this one on ones conversation that we have, it helps you have
to be listening to your, to whomever you're communicating
with, to be able to then kind of reflect back on what they're
saying, and to kind of build up on the topics that you've been
discussing. Yeah. And so for us, I also think that like in, like
engineering organizations, what is important is to have
processes to guide those communications, right, to make
them really good, right. So for instance, you know, like, even
like, when we do pull requests, we have to have clear guidance
as to how to do certain things. Because if everyone does it in a
different way, there are no guidances around it, then you
just get like, it's really hard to follow for someone who's just
joining the team or who have someone who's been absent for a
while. Yeah,
Jason Baum: and you mentioned active listening and it's funny,
we talk about communication and people usually talk about how
they talk right how they what they're saying and I think I'm
glad that you went right to listening. You know, there's the
saying write about having one mouth but you have two years,
right and, and not just listening, but then also I think
being able to valid data, what the person is saying to you,
goes a long way as well right in showing that you're listening to
them, and not just listening to them, but you are empathy.
Empathic, ah, I cannot say that word today, you are feeling
empathy for them. And and you understand what they're saying.
And that that goes towards, then you could get to the next step,
right? It's how do you go from A to B?
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, exactly. Like, especially like with our
globally distributed team, we have like, we come from all
different backgrounds for, for us, it is important to be on the
same page. And the way like I have the simple tricks that I
do, for instance, like just asking question again, right?
Like when someone says something to me just asking back, just
repeating whether like I understood the question, right,
or just adding follow up questions. And then once a
person finishes a point, or like a conversation, just tell them
back what exactly what I've heard and make sure that I heard
it correctly. During the meeting.
Jason Baum: Yeah. So what are so that's like one tip, for better
communication. What's another tip that you might have?
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, I think on the tips, we have a whole list
of things, it depends on I guess, like, we'll give brother
the communication is one on one, or it's within a team or within
an org, or outside of an org, right. So for instance, if it's
very technical, like say, we are working on a project together,
and we want to make sure that it's shipped. So there are
certain channels that we have to establish prior to actually
starting the problem, like the problem definition is, like, we
have to be very clear what the what kind of problem we're
solving before, people are bought into it, like the
stakeholders understand what problem we're solving. And, and
then like just having, like, whenever we have a meeting
around this problem, making sure that we take notes about, you
know, like, so So whomever is not in a meeting, they know
exactly what we've talked about. And then in the end of the
meeting, have summaries. And then we have like Project
charters when you can, when it's a one pager that describes what
this project is going to be about. So again, this is like,
really important in a globally distributed team to have as much
communication, like over communication is a good source
of communication as possible. And, and in that sense, like, we
have to make sure that they have project charters, we have RFCs
work like technical descriptions of the documents. And all of
those communications have to happen before in engineering
team actually goes and then executes and starts implementing
those things. So I think that's like everything prior to
actually implementing it.
Jason Baum: Yeah, and and I would argue, almost, it's not
necessarily over communication, it's effective communication,
right, that we often are lacking, or that we are striving
for, in many instances, and you brought up virtual work
environments and global work environments. And certainly,
that's something that prior to the pandemic, certainly on the
rise, but nothing like it is now. And I would imagine that
throws a whole other, you know, arm in the race, this is like,
it's it's a whole different world now that we operate in.
And from a communication perspective. It's just another
hurdle, right?
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, for sure. I think, I think I was well set
up going into pandemic, if you can say, so basically, for the
past eight years now, I've been working remotely. I've been
working from Kyrgyzstan, I would travel back and forth to the
states and whatnot, but mostly I've been working remotely. And
and, yeah, we've set up processes around it. Like, in
the beginning, we had when we I had to work by American hours,
like in 2014. That would be an iPad with my face on it so that
I'm present in the office, it was everyone else. And that
quickly became ineffective, because I had to stay up until
five in the morning, right? And then yeah, and then we kind of
had to evolve. And we had to like come up with like, how do
we make sure that we have all these, like communication
channels in place? So and then actually building this remote
first teams, and going into pandemic like pipe was started
two and a half years ago, and started right before the
pandemic. So the whole company, the whole team culture is was
built during a pandemic. And that's why we were able to scale
globally.
Jason Baum: Can you give an example maybe if something that
you do, maybe that's a little different than if you were
communicating in an office setting like when you have I'll
give you an example from something that I see at least on
my team, so we are all remote. It's actually the first
environment I've been in where the entire company is remote.
Before and we talked about this two weeks ago, we our topic was
the great resignation, we spent a little bit of time on some
culture issues, I really believe retention is something we should
be focusing on. And recruitment is always gonna be important.
It's nothing like it was because now you can recruit globally. So
you have this huge talent pool of the world. But retention is
also important and keeping those good people because you never
know, you know, for both sides, right? The grass is always
greener, a little bit. And we don't focus on that enough. And
I think good, positive, positive communication, effective
communication, all these things are so important. On my team,
I've noticed culture wise, that while we are great
communicators, there is a need I think, for, quote, unquote,
small talk or, you know, the ability to what we don't have
that I noticed, that is kind of lacking is the ability to like
go to your team members desk, knock on the door, poke your
head in, have your cup of coffee in hand, pen, just how was the
weekend, you know, type of conversation? And unless it's a
planned meeting, and now you're gonna have that conversation, it
doesn't happen. And we're missing it. I think.
Kainar Kamalov: 100% Yeah, I think we actually, like there
are two problems there. Right. One is, for existing team
members, how do we make sure that the team is like, there is
this? Like, there is fluidity right, where there's, you can
just knock on someone's door and whatnot. And then there is
bringing someone onto the team. So I'd say like those are, and
like making sure that they feel like a good part of the team.
And they kind of like fit right in and then increase on this
culture. So the jump into the first point, is like, what we do
is like, like, we have hours of everyone works in so in Slack,
you know exactly when someone is present or not. Right. And when
someone is present, we just, we use this huddles a lot. We just
like jumped into the hurdles. Similar how you would just, like
knock on someone's door. Like if I love I just yeah, this is such
a great invention. Yeah. Yeah. So we just go into the hurdles
before cuddles were like a part of the slack. We used to have a
discord channels open. So we would have just like three
channels on Discord that you could just be part of just sit
there work. And then someone else joins in, you just talk.
So. So that's something that we tried to be active about. We
also have this recurring meetings, we call them water
coolers. Where there is no agenda in those meetings. It's
any, anyone in the team can join them whenever they want.
Usually, I talk about sports, I talk about running and biking,
because that's what I do.
Jason Baum: A lot of I love that. Are they just open?
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, exactly. They're open, you can just come
in and just hang out with people. And then like, we
actually had, like, couple of people in our team that were
just talking there. And then like, hey, why don't we meet up
next week in Finland. And then two people just flew out from
the states to Finland, and they spent a week there, just hanging
out through three co workers. Right. So that was amazing. And,
and then we have to make sure that the new person that is
joining us also vulner like you know, we create a safe spot
where they feel vulnerable, to be able to be part of the team
and just express their ideas. And not not not shy away.
Without everyone. There are no dumb questions. So we just like,
kind of like we have this onboarding buddies that just
take and spend like our three to three weeks of their time, just
helping to get someone like to make sure that they fit right
into the team. So and we had examples where like team members
had to fly into, like this new members, you know, city, so that
they could spend a couple of weeks together actually working
and setting them up and whatnot. Yeah, and then one thing like
that never can never substitute, in my opinion, like, real world
communication. Just it's not substitutable, right. So for,
for that what we do is every three months, we try to meet as
a whole engineering team, or like the whole team. Like every
three, every six months, we we meet as an engineering team, and
then every other six months, the whole company meets. So there is
like every three months, like engineers get to hang out with
each other. And during that time, we just try to make sure
that we just focus on this team building activities and just
making sure that people are comfortable with each other and
build this trust between each other and understand each other
better.
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Jason Baum: So tell me about water coolers a little bit more?
Because I am I think that I think you've shared a lot of
great ideas there. The water cooler meeting is something I
have not heard of as like just an open, recurring meeting
that's just always there. And you can just jump it. How do
you? So I think some of these methods and we've talked about
them on the podcast in the past are great. The problem I see is
adoption. How do you get people to buy in? To those? Yeah,
Kainar Kamalov: that's, that's a great question. Like, what we do
is we have less like Slack, Slack channel, that's called
Water Cooler. And then during this actually, we had a water
cooler, like, last week, which was like, we have them with
three times a week. And last week, last one was on Friday,
like, say, 7pm my time, right? What we do is like whoever is
the first person to join the water cooler, they just create
either a huddle, if they want to just hear or they can create a
zoom, and just blast out a message to the chat. Hey,
welcome, people are welcome to join. And you'd be surprised a
lot of people actually do join, because I think we are remote
first. And I think it's all about like, making sure that it
is ingrained, right. It's, this is something that I look forward
to, because then I get to talk to people that I don't get a
chance to talk to day to day. And it's a lot of fun.
Jason Baum: Because when teams are working together when you're
sharing that information, right, when you're making yourself
vulnerable when you're communicating effectively, and
it's not just work related. Now there's this trust that you're
building, right? And that's how proactive honesty can come
about. And that's, and right. And it's like, it's like a
snowball that you're building a little bit. And when you don't
have it. I think you can sense it, right? The team doesn't
necessarily function at the best that it could you maybe you have
silos that are come up, right?
Kainar Kamalov: Exactly. And like, it's like, a lot of the
times people are focused on this execution mode, and they are
working on their projects. But then in this water coolers, we
can take a step back, and we just talk about random things,
right, we can talk about, like non work related things, but a
lot of the times, like, certain things, certain frustrations
might come up that, you know, like that, I might share, like,
Hey, I think this didn't go well. And then we can all talk
there. And and then like, we might have an outcome from it
right. Beyond that we have this meeting called Kaizen, which is
every two weeks and engineering team sits down. And we have an
but that one is specifically focused on discussion topics. So
everyone, we we like to make sure that there are topics that
might be uncovered during this any meeting water coolers or any
other meeting or just someone that sees an issue of some
sorts, and we just discuss it with Hey, how can we improve
improve our communications? How can we just giving each other
feedback and shouting each other out making sure that like, just
building this culture of transparency?
Jason Baum: Yeah, like that a culture of transparency, a
culture of trust? And and this might answer the question that
I'm about to ask though. But, you know, when you provide
feedback, especially in a remote environment, everyone has gotten
the text before or the email that you read, and you're like,
What are they talking about? And you get angry? And you're, oh, I
can't believe they wrote this. And then you know, you get on
the phone with them or you you have it in person? And you're
Oh, no, I didn't mean it that way. Like it totally
misinterpreted what I had to say because it's not a great channel
of communication, right? We So so how is it that you can help
team members in this environment when everything is the channel
is through slack the channel is through. Maybe it's not in the
water cooler, although I love the water cooler because that
allows for this openness, and the better channel but how do
you help team members? Kind of not be defensive and be
adaptable in a remote environment?
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, I think you People get defensive,
usually, in my opinion, when there is when there is lack of
trust, a lot of times, and, and I think that's like a, like if,
and that's, that's a bigger issue that, that, like, if I see
someone being defensive, then I have to maybe it's structurally
we have something like the culture is not right, you know,
like something had to irritate this person to a point that we
got to that point, right. So, and to avoid that what we have
to be active about giving feedback. And feedback is, and
we've tried to be very conscientious about it, we say
like, Hey, this is this feedback is not to who you are, this
feedback is towards this particular issue, right. And
like, some people just have more tendency to be like, more
aggressive during the meetings and whatnot, and others are more
defensive. So I think like giving feedback on like, how the
meeting can be held, is important. So and the
vulnerability is, like, such a hard topic, I think we try to,
we try to be very proactive about it. And we have like, one
on ones, we have one on ones, it's a flat organization, we
don't have like, we have 2530 engineers, and we try to make
sure that everyone is heard. And everyone. Like, we try to have
like this, like, network effect that everyone talks to everyone
so that we are on the same page. And so there are two things that
we do we have, we always have, like, written communication is
important. But also like we have meetings, where like people
discuss certain issues. And if it's a recurring meeting, we
make sure that every week, a new member is a meeting leader, and
there is a new note taker, so and then meeting leaders job is
to make sure that everyone in the meeting is participating.
And that way this like, like everyone is growing from that
experience, and at the same time, like all of this gaps that
we might have missed are being uncovered.
Jason Baum: Are you creating a culture of accountability? By
doing that, also?
Kainar Kamalov: Exactly, I think, I think we, we try to be
very, very conscientious about like, what type of people we are
hiring, I think, and we are looking for people that enjoy
building and enjoy writing code, it's like, they have either
hacker mentality entrepreneurial mentality, where everyone in a
team, just like, we have this shared values engineering, or
like, company wide values. And, and one of the values is
communicate, clearly and often, for instance, right. And the
other. Another value is like making sure that you know, like,
if you see a problem, just go fix it type of mentality, and,
and, and what and how the way we like, that's the type of people
that we are looking for. And, and we we make sure that we
facilitated within a team by whenever there is a new project,
we don't have, like, we get all just come together to solve that
problem project within a team. But then like, within that
group, there is like, there will be a leader. And we want to make
sure that the leaders change on project basis, so that everyone
has a chance to be, like, responsible person for that
project. Right. So and that's how we make sure that the
outcome, there is accountability. And so and then,
and accountability comes from multiple factors, right, such as
problem definition, like have we had day as a group, we're able
to define what problem they're trying to solve. And what's the
success metric once they solve that problem. So and they have
to make sure that, you know, they, that's it, then then we
can tell from as a leadership, we can talk to them. And at the
end of the meeting, at the end of the project, say like, Hey,
did you achieve what you were what you said you would achieve?
Jason Baum: And that's how we can provide that feedback. Yeah.
And provide the feedback. Yeah. Which is which is that that one
of the final pieces right of that communication cycle? So how
did how at pipe What are you doing at pipe to kind of keep
things I guess, rewarding, to give a sense of you want people
to be passionate about their work. Now, obviously, you can't
make someone passionate about their work. But how do you keep
it exciting? How do you keep them jazzed about you know
what's going on and I guess, excited about what they do.
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, Um, so what I hear is that what, what
makes a job reporting? I guess, right. So, in my opinion,
they're like, three things that make an employee happy, like, in
a broader scheme, like first is compensation if, and the second
is team. And the third is like, what's the mission or project
that you're working on, say like, if you have all three of
them, like you have you enjoy the team, you have great
compensation, you don't have to worry about it. And you believe
in the mission that this and like, the problems you're
solving are exciting. And I think like, that's an ideal
environment. If one of these three factors is off, then it
creates weird dynamics where it's like, if the team is off,
and it's like, I'm not sure if I want to work here, you know,
like, this guys don't seem to be like, you know, XY and Z and
whatnot, right? And then, and if two factors, or two of the three
are not working, then it's like, why am I even in this team? So.
So for us, it's important to make sure that, like, we cover
all of those things. And, yeah, and I think it also comes from
the fact that, like, all of us are super vulnerable and open.
Like, I like I'm, I think it's okay to say that you don't know
certain things. And then you are like, yeah, like, we always ask
for feedback, like, Hey, how can we improve on that? And this?
And that? Oh, 100%? Yeah, I think I think
Jason Baum: that's more important, right than asking for
it.
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, 100%, I think that's so important. And,
because initially, like that, like, like the first two years,
right of the any team, any company's growth is, you know,
just kind of like, just trying to find the problem to solve.
And then we just work on projects, and you scale a team,
you, you create something exciting, and then and then you
reach a certain size in a team when, you know, like, if you
don't have well. well documented values, for instance, are well
documented processes in place, then people tend to create them
for their own smaller circles. And that creates a division.
And, and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. How do we make
sure that like, we're all focused on the same goal, and
how do we make sure that we are striving to improve
communication across the board?
Jason Baum: Yeah, definitely. It's kind of like the struggle
of you want hive mind, but that people keep their individuality.
Right. It's like, it's nowhere in the world. No, no, and no
other instance of life. Is this, like an acceptable way of going
about it. But we do really want that right, the hive mind, but
all for positive. But you know, it's funny, because you
mentioned the things that people value, you know, obviously
compensation. And, but I think that the reasons why people
leave their jobs isn't necessarily because of
compensation. I think people leave their jobs, maybe because
they're not being heard. Because communication is poor, because
they're providing feedback. And it's not being taken because
because there's a lack of the mission, like you said, silos.
So it's funny, because it's like, all these things that you
don't really necessarily not everyone goes into the job, you
know, thinking about those things. They're like, Well, what
do I get paid? And How flexible are you with my hours, which
obviously, is important, but I think those other things are
usually more important when leaving the job.
Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, 100%, I think, and what we do is
actually like, we have this retrospectives. And we do them
upon achieving anything, or failing on any major milestone,
right? So and it can be like, when we, when we have like, when
we complete a project, or we complete a quarter, like, what
did we do? Like, team sits down and they are like the whole
company sit down and then say, Hey, what did we do, right? What
did we do wrong? We have we make sure that like those, we
everyone has, like a time to ask to raise certain points. And
then we create action items from that, to make sure that we
actually then like, follow up follow through on that on the
retro
Jason Baum: Yeah, keeping your word is incredibly important. I
think for the company, and for the employee to write you say
you're going to get a job done. Get the job done. If you can't
get the job done, communicate it. You know, it's funny if you
if you're missing deadlines, obviously it's gonna raise a red
flag you're gonna be in trouble you know, whatever the you know,
it's not gonna be good situation for you. But if you're gonna
miss a deadline, and I feel like if you raise that flag earlier
in the process, and you look at it as I'm a sports, I'm a sports
fan to kind of our but we can't win, I'm not allowed to talk
about it too much on the podcast, I get in trouble. But
if you look at it from a team sense, right sports, you win and
you fail as a team, individual performance, yes, it's
important. But at the end of the day, you know, individuals don't
work when championships teams do, right. So when you have one
individual who is struggling a little bit, and they're at least
proactively honest about it, I think that's really important,
because then the team can rally around that person and can help.
But when it's too late, it's too late for everyone.
Kainar Kamalov: Exactly, I think that's a great point you touched
on, I think, what we also tried to do is to make sure that like,
those things surfaced earlier in time. So and, and one on ones
are a great way to do it, right? Like because in this, like the
job of a manager of a lot of the times is to make sure that like,
you know, like to keep people accountable, but at the same
time protect them from, you know, like just being there as
a, as a friend, making sure if there's something going on, that
might be out of their control, right, like maybe some issues
outside of the work, then like this person is actually being a
shield, saying, hey, this person had some time of, like, let's
make sure that, you know, like, let's not bother them for a bit.
And on the other hand, if there is no like external factors,
then maybe a manager job is like, Hey, you have to step up
now in order for us to be able to achieve certain things. So
it's like, it's more of an art than science there.
Jason Baum: Yeah, totally. It's like navigating a ship.
Sometimes, you know, it takes a while to turn it and it takes,
you know, it's takes more than just one person to turn a cruise
ship, right. So I really appreciate it. I think we've
we've covered so much on the topic. And I appreciate your
time kind iron for coming to us all the way from Kyrgyzstan. And
now the way we usually wrap up our podcast is that we ask one
question that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic,
but all about you. So to put you on the spot a little bit. What
is one thing that you could be remembered for? If you could be
remembered for one thing? What would that be?
Kainar Kamalov: Like after I die? Or like after this podcast?
Jason Baum: Sure, whichever. I've never actually had someone
interpret it that way. But I love that. But yeah, it's up to
you. I mean, typically, I think people think post mortem, but
Kainar Kamalov: that's too far for me to think about. So. Yeah,
well, I think I, as I said, I do sports for fun. And I got into
running like, like, couple, like five, six years ago. And so
right now I hold Kyrgyzstan records for 5k 10k 21k and 42k.
Like marathon Mau, among amateurs not among
professionals. Yeah, that's a fact that
Jason Baum: have you ever thought about participating in
the Olympics?
Kainar Kamalov: I'm not that. And it's a lot of effort. You
have no kid so many crazy hours.
Jason Baum: Yeah, but you That's awesome. Congratulations on
that. That's That's great. So you want to be remembered for
your your running? Is that what you're saying? After this
podcast? Yeah, yeah, see, I'm putting the pressure on
Kainar Kamalov: the better thing. Interesting actually, we
just agential Running is I'm a coach, I'm a running coach as
well part time right and, and I think has to do with
communications and accountability all the time. So
we have I'm coaching six people and they've been showing great
results and they've been winning local starts as well. So I think
that that speaks to just being like able to communicate and
make sure you build this trust and and they execute on so many
Jason Baum: traits right and coaching and then can be applied
in Business and Management and culture shifts and all those
things right i mean it's it's it's so similar very much and a
lot of the things that we hold true you know, for sports can
easily be applied. Yeah, thanks so much for being with us today
Kiner and for for doing this. It's it's not super late by you,
but it's pretty late by you when we're recording this. I really
appreciate your you're staying up to do this. And I know you're
going to be up for a long time because you work with folks in
the States but I really put reciate it.
Kainar Kamalov: Thank you, Jason. Yeah. Thanks for having
me.
Jason Baum: Absolutely. And thanks for listening to this
episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this
episode the same way I always do encouraging you to become a
member of the DevOps Institute to get access to even more great
resources just like this one. Something fun that I'm going to
announce. It's, maybe I'll drop a hint on this episode, and give
you more information on future ones. We are building something
at DevOps Institute. We call ourselves a community we are
community. Let's just put it this way. That's going to be
even more true, even more true, even truer going forward. So, a
little more on that on a future episode. And until next time,
stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, and stay human,
live long and prosper.
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