1 00:00:02,939 --> 00:00:05,819 Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a 2 00:00:05,819 --> 00:00:09,449 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,479 --> 00:00:13,799 knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the SK il framework. 4 00:00:17,250 --> 00:00:19,650 Kainar Kamalov: First is compensation. The second is 5 00:00:19,650 --> 00:00:22,380 team. And the third is like, what's the mission or project 6 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:25,740 that you're working on? If you have all three of them, you 7 00:00:25,740 --> 00:00:28,260 believe in the mission and like the problems you're solving are 8 00:00:28,260 --> 00:00:31,320 exciting. And I think like, that's an ideal environment. 9 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:36,510 Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member 10 00:00:36,510 --> 00:00:40,650 experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps 11 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:45,870 podcast. So welcome back. It's another week, hope it was a good 12 00:00:45,870 --> 00:00:48,990 one for you. And I'm really happy to have you back here 13 00:00:48,990 --> 00:00:54,900 listening to the show. And on today's episode, it's sort of a 14 00:00:54,900 --> 00:01:00,510 topic that's close to home for me. Communication. And we've 15 00:01:00,510 --> 00:01:05,250 we've sort of gone around the topic of communication through 16 00:01:05,250 --> 00:01:08,910 various ways. We've talked about proactive honesty, we've talked 17 00:01:08,910 --> 00:01:13,830 about empathetic communication or empathic communication, I 18 00:01:13,830 --> 00:01:19,680 should say. And, and we, we really never dove into 19 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,990 communication as a whole. So today, that's exactly what we're 20 00:01:24,990 --> 00:01:30,870 going to do. And my guest today, Kiner Camelot is here to talk 21 00:01:30,870 --> 00:01:34,290 about it with me and keiner is committed to helping humans make 22 00:01:34,290 --> 00:01:36,840 the most of technology and helping engineers do their best 23 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,390 work. He's originally from OSH, Kyrgyzstan, and now resides in 24 00:01:42,390 --> 00:01:46,980 Bishkek. He's an MIT graduate and publish expert on human 25 00:01:46,980 --> 00:01:50,700 computer interactions, was a founding team member at B 12. 26 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:53,730 were created and led a distributed engineering team and 27 00:01:53,730 --> 00:01:56,730 is currently director of engineering at pipe, which is a 28 00:01:56,730 --> 00:02:00,480 recurring revenue trading platform, at pipe has focuses on 29 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,630 building new products, as well as recruiting and leading a team 30 00:02:03,630 --> 00:02:07,440 of engineers distributed across the globe. And that's something 31 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,980 we're definitely going to get into also communication not just 32 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,320 in your own backyard, but communication when you have to 33 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:20,070 do it, like 12 hours past your bedtime. So, Kiner thank you so 34 00:02:20,070 --> 00:02:23,940 much for joining me, and welcome to the humans of DevOps podcast. 35 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,420 Kainar Kamalov: Thank you, Jason. I'm very glad to be here. 36 00:02:27,450 --> 00:02:30,570 I think it'll be an interesting topic for us to cover because 37 00:02:30,990 --> 00:02:33,990 English is like the third or fourth language that I speak. So 38 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,770 for me, it takes a lot of effort to communicate well, 39 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,000 Jason Baum: I could say hello, and a few different languages. I 40 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,050 can order I can I can order things. That's the extent of my 41 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,650 my bilingual illness or trilingual illness. So very 42 00:02:49,650 --> 00:02:54,870 important. Yeah, absolutely. And yes. Okay, so Kiner, are you 43 00:02:54,870 --> 00:02:58,560 ready to get human? Oh, let's do it. I think we've already 44 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:04,020 started. So what does it take to be a good communicator in your 45 00:03:04,020 --> 00:03:04,470 eyes? 46 00:03:05,310 --> 00:03:08,730 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, this is such a multifaceted, big 47 00:03:08,730 --> 00:03:14,340 question. And I think, for me, it's important. Like when I 48 00:03:14,340 --> 00:03:17,190 think about a good communicator is someone who is a clear 49 00:03:17,190 --> 00:03:22,800 communicator, a person that has thought through a problem before 50 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,160 jumping into answering the, you know, like proposing a solution 51 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,330 or answering the question. The other thing that I want to touch 52 00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:33,660 on is that communication, a lot of the times it's not about just 53 00:03:33,690 --> 00:03:37,050 saying something, but it's also being an active listener, 54 00:03:37,530 --> 00:03:41,910 understanding the surroundings, right, and like, so in a lot of 55 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:44,760 this one on ones conversation that we have, it helps you have 56 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,820 to be listening to your, to whomever you're communicating 57 00:03:47,820 --> 00:03:50,910 with, to be able to then kind of reflect back on what they're 58 00:03:50,910 --> 00:03:53,550 saying, and to kind of build up on the topics that you've been 59 00:03:53,550 --> 00:04:00,780 discussing. Yeah. And so for us, I also think that like in, like 60 00:04:00,780 --> 00:04:04,650 engineering organizations, what is important is to have 61 00:04:04,650 --> 00:04:08,280 processes to guide those communications, right, to make 62 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,510 them really good, right. So for instance, you know, like, even 63 00:04:12,510 --> 00:04:16,410 like, when we do pull requests, we have to have clear guidance 64 00:04:16,410 --> 00:04:19,440 as to how to do certain things. Because if everyone does it in a 65 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,500 different way, there are no guidances around it, then you 66 00:04:22,500 --> 00:04:26,910 just get like, it's really hard to follow for someone who's just 67 00:04:26,910 --> 00:04:29,640 joining the team or who have someone who's been absent for a 68 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,580 while. Yeah, 69 00:04:32,580 --> 00:04:37,080 Jason Baum: and you mentioned active listening and it's funny, 70 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,080 we talk about communication and people usually talk about how 71 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,770 they talk right how they what they're saying and I think I'm 72 00:04:43,770 --> 00:04:48,030 glad that you went right to listening. You know, there's the 73 00:04:48,030 --> 00:04:53,160 saying write about having one mouth but you have two years, 74 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:58,290 right and, and not just listening, but then also I think 75 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,490 being able to valid data, what the person is saying to you, 76 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,350 goes a long way as well right in showing that you're listening to 77 00:05:07,350 --> 00:05:11,520 them, and not just listening to them, but you are empathy. 78 00:05:11,550 --> 00:05:16,740 Empathic, ah, I cannot say that word today, you are feeling 79 00:05:16,740 --> 00:05:21,120 empathy for them. And and you understand what they're saying. 80 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,930 And that that goes towards, then you could get to the next step, 81 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,750 right? It's how do you go from A to B? 82 00:05:28,589 --> 00:05:31,529 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, exactly. Like, especially like with our 83 00:05:31,529 --> 00:05:34,379 globally distributed team, we have like, we come from all 84 00:05:34,409 --> 00:05:37,559 different backgrounds for, for us, it is important to be on the 85 00:05:37,559 --> 00:05:40,919 same page. And the way like I have the simple tricks that I 86 00:05:40,919 --> 00:05:44,849 do, for instance, like just asking question again, right? 87 00:05:44,849 --> 00:05:47,789 Like when someone says something to me just asking back, just 88 00:05:47,789 --> 00:05:50,489 repeating whether like I understood the question, right, 89 00:05:50,489 --> 00:05:53,549 or just adding follow up questions. And then once a 90 00:05:53,549 --> 00:05:57,869 person finishes a point, or like a conversation, just tell them 91 00:05:57,869 --> 00:06:01,199 back what exactly what I've heard and make sure that I heard 92 00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:02,939 it correctly. During the meeting. 93 00:06:03,569 --> 00:06:07,739 Jason Baum: Yeah. So what are so that's like one tip, for better 94 00:06:07,739 --> 00:06:10,289 communication. What's another tip that you might have? 95 00:06:11,550 --> 00:06:16,440 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, I think on the tips, we have a whole list 96 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,160 of things, it depends on I guess, like, we'll give brother 97 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:23,220 the communication is one on one, or it's within a team or within 98 00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:27,510 an org, or outside of an org, right. So for instance, if it's 99 00:06:27,570 --> 00:06:31,050 very technical, like say, we are working on a project together, 100 00:06:31,140 --> 00:06:34,110 and we want to make sure that it's shipped. So there are 101 00:06:34,110 --> 00:06:37,260 certain channels that we have to establish prior to actually 102 00:06:37,260 --> 00:06:41,520 starting the problem, like the problem definition is, like, we 103 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,160 have to be very clear what the what kind of problem we're 104 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,550 solving before, people are bought into it, like the 105 00:06:47,550 --> 00:06:52,170 stakeholders understand what problem we're solving. And, and 106 00:06:52,170 --> 00:06:55,560 then like just having, like, whenever we have a meeting 107 00:06:55,620 --> 00:07:00,240 around this problem, making sure that we take notes about, you 108 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,730 know, like, so So whomever is not in a meeting, they know 109 00:07:02,730 --> 00:07:05,040 exactly what we've talked about. And then in the end of the 110 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,770 meeting, have summaries. And then we have like Project 111 00:07:07,770 --> 00:07:13,200 charters when you can, when it's a one pager that describes what 112 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,890 this project is going to be about. So again, this is like, 113 00:07:17,370 --> 00:07:20,970 really important in a globally distributed team to have as much 114 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:24,060 communication, like over communication is a good source 115 00:07:24,060 --> 00:07:28,410 of communication as possible. And, and in that sense, like, we 116 00:07:28,410 --> 00:07:31,500 have to make sure that they have project charters, we have RFCs 117 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:35,160 work like technical descriptions of the documents. And all of 118 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,880 those communications have to happen before in engineering 119 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,670 team actually goes and then executes and starts implementing 120 00:07:41,670 --> 00:07:45,630 those things. So I think that's like everything prior to 121 00:07:45,630 --> 00:07:46,860 actually implementing it. 122 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,050 Jason Baum: Yeah, and and I would argue, almost, it's not 123 00:07:52,050 --> 00:07:55,170 necessarily over communication, it's effective communication, 124 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,220 right, that we often are lacking, or that we are striving 125 00:07:59,220 --> 00:08:02,370 for, in many instances, and you brought up virtual work 126 00:08:02,370 --> 00:08:05,370 environments and global work environments. And certainly, 127 00:08:05,370 --> 00:08:10,290 that's something that prior to the pandemic, certainly on the 128 00:08:10,290 --> 00:08:16,950 rise, but nothing like it is now. And I would imagine that 129 00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:23,610 throws a whole other, you know, arm in the race, this is like, 130 00:08:23,610 --> 00:08:26,880 it's it's a whole different world now that we operate in. 131 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,960 And from a communication perspective. It's just another 132 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:31,890 hurdle, right? 133 00:08:32,850 --> 00:08:35,940 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, for sure. I think, I think I was well set 134 00:08:35,940 --> 00:08:40,770 up going into pandemic, if you can say, so basically, for the 135 00:08:40,770 --> 00:08:44,010 past eight years now, I've been working remotely. I've been 136 00:08:44,010 --> 00:08:46,650 working from Kyrgyzstan, I would travel back and forth to the 137 00:08:46,650 --> 00:08:49,950 states and whatnot, but mostly I've been working remotely. And 138 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,140 and, yeah, we've set up processes around it. Like, in 139 00:08:55,140 --> 00:08:58,680 the beginning, we had when we I had to work by American hours, 140 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:02,640 like in 2014. That would be an iPad with my face on it so that 141 00:09:02,700 --> 00:09:07,020 I'm present in the office, it was everyone else. And that 142 00:09:07,020 --> 00:09:10,410 quickly became ineffective, because I had to stay up until 143 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:13,800 five in the morning, right? And then yeah, and then we kind of 144 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,040 had to evolve. And we had to like come up with like, how do 145 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,130 we make sure that we have all these, like communication 146 00:09:20,130 --> 00:09:25,050 channels in place? So and then actually building this remote 147 00:09:25,050 --> 00:09:29,700 first teams, and going into pandemic like pipe was started 148 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:32,700 two and a half years ago, and started right before the 149 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:36,660 pandemic. So the whole company, the whole team culture is was 150 00:09:36,780 --> 00:09:40,350 built during a pandemic. And that's why we were able to scale 151 00:09:40,350 --> 00:09:40,770 globally. 152 00:09:41,549 --> 00:09:44,369 Jason Baum: Can you give an example maybe if something that 153 00:09:44,369 --> 00:09:47,159 you do, maybe that's a little different than if you were 154 00:09:47,159 --> 00:09:52,109 communicating in an office setting like when you have I'll 155 00:09:52,109 --> 00:09:54,809 give you an example from something that I see at least on 156 00:09:54,809 --> 00:09:58,619 my team, so we are all remote. It's actually the first 157 00:09:58,619 --> 00:10:01,469 environment I've been in where the entire company is remote. 158 00:10:02,249 --> 00:10:06,929 Before and we talked about this two weeks ago, we our topic was 159 00:10:06,929 --> 00:10:10,529 the great resignation, we spent a little bit of time on some 160 00:10:10,529 --> 00:10:14,879 culture issues, I really believe retention is something we should 161 00:10:14,879 --> 00:10:19,589 be focusing on. And recruitment is always gonna be important. 162 00:10:20,279 --> 00:10:23,369 It's nothing like it was because now you can recruit globally. So 163 00:10:23,369 --> 00:10:27,959 you have this huge talent pool of the world. But retention is 164 00:10:27,959 --> 00:10:31,979 also important and keeping those good people because you never 165 00:10:31,979 --> 00:10:34,469 know, you know, for both sides, right? The grass is always 166 00:10:34,469 --> 00:10:39,419 greener, a little bit. And we don't focus on that enough. And 167 00:10:39,419 --> 00:10:42,539 I think good, positive, positive communication, effective 168 00:10:42,539 --> 00:10:45,809 communication, all these things are so important. On my team, 169 00:10:45,809 --> 00:10:50,249 I've noticed culture wise, that while we are great 170 00:10:50,249 --> 00:10:55,469 communicators, there is a need I think, for, quote, unquote, 171 00:10:55,499 --> 00:11:00,179 small talk or, you know, the ability to what we don't have 172 00:11:00,209 --> 00:11:03,359 that I noticed, that is kind of lacking is the ability to like 173 00:11:03,359 --> 00:11:09,899 go to your team members desk, knock on the door, poke your 174 00:11:09,899 --> 00:11:14,519 head in, have your cup of coffee in hand, pen, just how was the 175 00:11:14,519 --> 00:11:18,569 weekend, you know, type of conversation? And unless it's a 176 00:11:18,569 --> 00:11:22,229 planned meeting, and now you're gonna have that conversation, it 177 00:11:22,229 --> 00:11:25,109 doesn't happen. And we're missing it. I think. 178 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,920 Kainar Kamalov: 100% Yeah, I think we actually, like there 179 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,310 are two problems there. Right. One is, for existing team 180 00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:36,150 members, how do we make sure that the team is like, there is 181 00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:39,750 this? Like, there is fluidity right, where there's, you can 182 00:11:39,750 --> 00:11:42,480 just knock on someone's door and whatnot. And then there is 183 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,480 bringing someone onto the team. So I'd say like those are, and 184 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,480 like making sure that they feel like a good part of the team. 185 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,690 And they kind of like fit right in and then increase on this 186 00:11:51,690 --> 00:11:55,590 culture. So the jump into the first point, is like, what we do 187 00:11:55,590 --> 00:12:01,200 is like, like, we have hours of everyone works in so in Slack, 188 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,500 you know exactly when someone is present or not. Right. And when 189 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:08,310 someone is present, we just, we use this huddles a lot. We just 190 00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:12,810 like jumped into the hurdles. Similar how you would just, like 191 00:12:12,810 --> 00:12:16,800 knock on someone's door. Like if I love I just yeah, this is such 192 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,970 a great invention. Yeah. Yeah. So we just go into the hurdles 193 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,540 before cuddles were like a part of the slack. We used to have a 194 00:12:24,540 --> 00:12:27,780 discord channels open. So we would have just like three 195 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:30,780 channels on Discord that you could just be part of just sit 196 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:33,450 there work. And then someone else joins in, you just talk. 197 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,430 So. So that's something that we tried to be active about. We 198 00:12:38,430 --> 00:12:41,280 also have this recurring meetings, we call them water 199 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,670 coolers. Where there is no agenda in those meetings. It's 200 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:47,550 any, anyone in the team can join them whenever they want. 201 00:12:47,940 --> 00:12:51,330 Usually, I talk about sports, I talk about running and biking, 202 00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:52,230 because that's what I do. 203 00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:55,620 Jason Baum: A lot of I love that. Are they just open? 204 00:12:56,519 --> 00:12:58,799 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, exactly. They're open, you can just come 205 00:12:58,799 --> 00:13:03,899 in and just hang out with people. And then like, we 206 00:13:03,899 --> 00:13:06,809 actually had, like, couple of people in our team that were 207 00:13:06,809 --> 00:13:08,969 just talking there. And then like, hey, why don't we meet up 208 00:13:08,969 --> 00:13:12,029 next week in Finland. And then two people just flew out from 209 00:13:12,029 --> 00:13:14,639 the states to Finland, and they spent a week there, just hanging 210 00:13:14,639 --> 00:13:19,649 out through three co workers. Right. So that was amazing. And, 211 00:13:20,609 --> 00:13:23,729 and then we have to make sure that the new person that is 212 00:13:23,729 --> 00:13:26,939 joining us also vulner like you know, we create a safe spot 213 00:13:26,939 --> 00:13:30,179 where they feel vulnerable, to be able to be part of the team 214 00:13:30,179 --> 00:13:34,889 and just express their ideas. And not not not shy away. 215 00:13:34,919 --> 00:13:37,619 Without everyone. There are no dumb questions. So we just like, 216 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:41,369 kind of like we have this onboarding buddies that just 217 00:13:41,369 --> 00:13:44,639 take and spend like our three to three weeks of their time, just 218 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:48,179 helping to get someone like to make sure that they fit right 219 00:13:48,179 --> 00:13:52,319 into the team. So and we had examples where like team members 220 00:13:52,319 --> 00:13:57,839 had to fly into, like this new members, you know, city, so that 221 00:13:57,839 --> 00:13:59,849 they could spend a couple of weeks together actually working 222 00:13:59,849 --> 00:14:05,039 and setting them up and whatnot. Yeah, and then one thing like 223 00:14:05,069 --> 00:14:10,139 that never can never substitute, in my opinion, like, real world 224 00:14:10,139 --> 00:14:14,879 communication. Just it's not substitutable, right. So for, 225 00:14:15,149 --> 00:14:19,049 for that what we do is every three months, we try to meet as 226 00:14:19,049 --> 00:14:22,739 a whole engineering team, or like the whole team. Like every 227 00:14:22,739 --> 00:14:25,589 three, every six months, we we meet as an engineering team, and 228 00:14:25,589 --> 00:14:29,129 then every other six months, the whole company meets. So there is 229 00:14:29,129 --> 00:14:32,639 like every three months, like engineers get to hang out with 230 00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:36,059 each other. And during that time, we just try to make sure 231 00:14:36,059 --> 00:14:39,569 that we just focus on this team building activities and just 232 00:14:39,599 --> 00:14:43,259 making sure that people are comfortable with each other and 233 00:14:43,259 --> 00:14:47,069 build this trust between each other and understand each other 234 00:14:47,069 --> 00:14:47,459 better. 235 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,400 Ad: Hey, humans DevOps, it's mixing here from DevOps 236 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,370 Institute. I'm dropping by to share how you can skill up and 237 00:14:56,370 --> 00:14:58,620 advance your career with the DevOps Institute premium 238 00:14:58,620 --> 00:15:01,800 membership. Our goal To empower you to gain the edge, you need 239 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,710 to advance your DevOps skills, knowledge, ideas, and learning. 240 00:15:05,970 --> 00:15:08,910 A premium membership gives you all access to what DevOps 241 00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:12,210 Institute has to offer. How does getting 30% off all 242 00:15:12,210 --> 00:15:15,960 certification exams? What about having access to a tool that can 243 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,870 Assess your team's DevOps capabilities. And if that wasn't 244 00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:21,810 enough, members can also read our entire library of skill 245 00:15:21,810 --> 00:15:25,080 books to support you during your DevOps journey. Get started 246 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,720 today for the price of a cup of coffee by going to DevOps 247 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,920 institute.com/membership. Head to the link in the episode 248 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,950 description to receive 20% off your DevOps Institute premium 249 00:15:34,950 --> 00:15:35,460 membership. 250 00:15:38,909 --> 00:15:41,669 Jason Baum: So tell me about water coolers a little bit more? 251 00:15:41,669 --> 00:15:45,389 Because I am I think that I think you've shared a lot of 252 00:15:45,389 --> 00:15:49,679 great ideas there. The water cooler meeting is something I 253 00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:54,719 have not heard of as like just an open, recurring meeting 254 00:15:54,719 --> 00:15:57,749 that's just always there. And you can just jump it. How do 255 00:15:57,749 --> 00:16:01,859 you? So I think some of these methods and we've talked about 256 00:16:01,859 --> 00:16:05,519 them on the podcast in the past are great. The problem I see is 257 00:16:05,549 --> 00:16:09,569 adoption. How do you get people to buy in? To those? Yeah, 258 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,840 Kainar Kamalov: that's, that's a great question. Like, what we do 259 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,660 is we have less like Slack, Slack channel, that's called 260 00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:19,230 Water Cooler. And then during this actually, we had a water 261 00:16:19,230 --> 00:16:23,880 cooler, like, last week, which was like, we have them with 262 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,640 three times a week. And last week, last one was on Friday, 263 00:16:27,090 --> 00:16:30,750 like, say, 7pm my time, right? What we do is like whoever is 264 00:16:30,750 --> 00:16:33,720 the first person to join the water cooler, they just create 265 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,290 either a huddle, if they want to just hear or they can create a 266 00:16:37,290 --> 00:16:42,120 zoom, and just blast out a message to the chat. Hey, 267 00:16:42,180 --> 00:16:45,600 welcome, people are welcome to join. And you'd be surprised a 268 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,750 lot of people actually do join, because I think we are remote 269 00:16:48,750 --> 00:16:52,620 first. And I think it's all about like, making sure that it 270 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:56,670 is ingrained, right. It's, this is something that I look forward 271 00:16:56,670 --> 00:17:00,630 to, because then I get to talk to people that I don't get a 272 00:17:00,630 --> 00:17:04,830 chance to talk to day to day. And it's a lot of fun. 273 00:17:05,579 --> 00:17:08,039 Jason Baum: Because when teams are working together when you're 274 00:17:08,039 --> 00:17:10,829 sharing that information, right, when you're making yourself 275 00:17:10,829 --> 00:17:14,459 vulnerable when you're communicating effectively, and 276 00:17:14,459 --> 00:17:17,549 it's not just work related. Now there's this trust that you're 277 00:17:17,549 --> 00:17:20,999 building, right? And that's how proactive honesty can come 278 00:17:20,999 --> 00:17:23,669 about. And that's, and right. And it's like, it's like a 279 00:17:23,669 --> 00:17:26,999 snowball that you're building a little bit. And when you don't 280 00:17:26,999 --> 00:17:31,109 have it. I think you can sense it, right? The team doesn't 281 00:17:31,109 --> 00:17:35,309 necessarily function at the best that it could you maybe you have 282 00:17:35,309 --> 00:17:37,319 silos that are come up, right? 283 00:17:38,430 --> 00:17:41,820 Kainar Kamalov: Exactly. And like, it's like, a lot of the 284 00:17:41,820 --> 00:17:44,580 times people are focused on this execution mode, and they are 285 00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:47,790 working on their projects. But then in this water coolers, we 286 00:17:47,790 --> 00:17:51,870 can take a step back, and we just talk about random things, 287 00:17:51,870 --> 00:17:54,720 right, we can talk about, like non work related things, but a 288 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,170 lot of the times, like, certain things, certain frustrations 289 00:17:58,170 --> 00:18:00,630 might come up that, you know, like that, I might share, like, 290 00:18:00,630 --> 00:18:03,720 Hey, I think this didn't go well. And then we can all talk 291 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,190 there. And and then like, we might have an outcome from it 292 00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:12,090 right. Beyond that we have this meeting called Kaizen, which is 293 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:16,920 every two weeks and engineering team sits down. And we have an 294 00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:20,670 but that one is specifically focused on discussion topics. So 295 00:18:20,670 --> 00:18:24,480 everyone, we we like to make sure that there are topics that 296 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,470 might be uncovered during this any meeting water coolers or any 297 00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:31,290 other meeting or just someone that sees an issue of some 298 00:18:31,290 --> 00:18:34,710 sorts, and we just discuss it with Hey, how can we improve 299 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:37,950 improve our communications? How can we just giving each other 300 00:18:37,950 --> 00:18:43,410 feedback and shouting each other out making sure that like, just 301 00:18:43,410 --> 00:18:46,920 building this culture of transparency? 302 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,330 Jason Baum: Yeah, like that a culture of transparency, a 303 00:18:51,330 --> 00:18:55,890 culture of trust? And and this might answer the question that 304 00:18:55,890 --> 00:19:00,660 I'm about to ask though. But, you know, when you provide 305 00:19:00,660 --> 00:19:04,350 feedback, especially in a remote environment, everyone has gotten 306 00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:08,520 the text before or the email that you read, and you're like, 307 00:19:09,540 --> 00:19:12,360 What are they talking about? And you get angry? And you're, oh, I 308 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:14,850 can't believe they wrote this. And then you know, you get on 309 00:19:14,850 --> 00:19:18,960 the phone with them or you you have it in person? And you're 310 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,750 Oh, no, I didn't mean it that way. Like it totally 311 00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:25,650 misinterpreted what I had to say because it's not a great channel 312 00:19:25,650 --> 00:19:32,100 of communication, right? We So so how is it that you can help 313 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:35,940 team members in this environment when everything is the channel 314 00:19:35,940 --> 00:19:40,260 is through slack the channel is through. Maybe it's not in the 315 00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:42,840 water cooler, although I love the water cooler because that 316 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,740 allows for this openness, and the better channel but how do 317 00:19:46,740 --> 00:19:51,930 you help team members? Kind of not be defensive and be 318 00:19:51,930 --> 00:19:55,860 adaptable in a remote environment? 319 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,889 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, I think you People get defensive, 320 00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:09,239 usually, in my opinion, when there is when there is lack of 321 00:20:09,239 --> 00:20:15,869 trust, a lot of times, and, and I think that's like a, like if, 322 00:20:16,349 --> 00:20:20,039 and that's, that's a bigger issue that, that, like, if I see 323 00:20:20,069 --> 00:20:23,129 someone being defensive, then I have to maybe it's structurally 324 00:20:23,129 --> 00:20:25,859 we have something like the culture is not right, you know, 325 00:20:25,859 --> 00:20:29,519 like something had to irritate this person to a point that we 326 00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:34,379 got to that point, right. So, and to avoid that what we have 327 00:20:34,379 --> 00:20:38,249 to be active about giving feedback. And feedback is, and 328 00:20:38,249 --> 00:20:41,429 we've tried to be very conscientious about it, we say 329 00:20:41,429 --> 00:20:45,539 like, Hey, this is this feedback is not to who you are, this 330 00:20:45,539 --> 00:20:49,169 feedback is towards this particular issue, right. And 331 00:20:49,169 --> 00:20:52,349 like, some people just have more tendency to be like, more 332 00:20:52,349 --> 00:20:55,859 aggressive during the meetings and whatnot, and others are more 333 00:20:55,859 --> 00:20:59,069 defensive. So I think like giving feedback on like, how the 334 00:20:59,069 --> 00:21:04,109 meeting can be held, is important. So and the 335 00:21:04,139 --> 00:21:09,299 vulnerability is, like, such a hard topic, I think we try to, 336 00:21:09,749 --> 00:21:13,439 we try to be very proactive about it. And we have like, one 337 00:21:13,439 --> 00:21:17,189 on ones, we have one on ones, it's a flat organization, we 338 00:21:17,189 --> 00:21:20,879 don't have like, we have 2530 engineers, and we try to make 339 00:21:20,879 --> 00:21:28,319 sure that everyone is heard. And everyone. Like, we try to have 340 00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:32,009 like this, like, network effect that everyone talks to everyone 341 00:21:32,039 --> 00:21:39,149 so that we are on the same page. And so there are two things that 342 00:21:39,149 --> 00:21:44,639 we do we have, we always have, like, written communication is 343 00:21:44,639 --> 00:21:48,809 important. But also like we have meetings, where like people 344 00:21:49,619 --> 00:21:52,769 discuss certain issues. And if it's a recurring meeting, we 345 00:21:52,769 --> 00:21:58,709 make sure that every week, a new member is a meeting leader, and 346 00:21:58,739 --> 00:22:03,719 there is a new note taker, so and then meeting leaders job is 347 00:22:03,719 --> 00:22:06,779 to make sure that everyone in the meeting is participating. 348 00:22:06,869 --> 00:22:11,219 And that way this like, like everyone is growing from that 349 00:22:11,219 --> 00:22:15,509 experience, and at the same time, like all of this gaps that 350 00:22:15,509 --> 00:22:17,429 we might have missed are being uncovered. 351 00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:20,910 Jason Baum: Are you creating a culture of accountability? By 352 00:22:20,910 --> 00:22:22,290 doing that, also? 353 00:22:23,670 --> 00:22:27,480 Kainar Kamalov: Exactly, I think, I think we, we try to be 354 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,220 very, very conscientious about like, what type of people we are 355 00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:36,690 hiring, I think, and we are looking for people that enjoy 356 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,560 building and enjoy writing code, it's like, they have either 357 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,190 hacker mentality entrepreneurial mentality, where everyone in a 358 00:22:44,190 --> 00:22:48,810 team, just like, we have this shared values engineering, or 359 00:22:48,810 --> 00:22:53,850 like, company wide values. And, and one of the values is 360 00:22:54,030 --> 00:22:57,030 communicate, clearly and often, for instance, right. And the 361 00:22:57,030 --> 00:23:02,310 other. Another value is like making sure that you know, like, 362 00:23:02,340 --> 00:23:07,320 if you see a problem, just go fix it type of mentality, and, 363 00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:12,810 and, and what and how the way we like, that's the type of people 364 00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:16,920 that we are looking for. And, and we we make sure that we 365 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,460 facilitated within a team by whenever there is a new project, 366 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,450 we don't have, like, we get all just come together to solve that 367 00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:27,600 problem project within a team. But then like, within that 368 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:33,900 group, there is like, there will be a leader. And we want to make 369 00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:37,920 sure that the leaders change on project basis, so that everyone 370 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,000 has a chance to be, like, responsible person for that 371 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,310 project. Right. So and that's how we make sure that the 372 00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:48,570 outcome, there is accountability. And so and then, 373 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,980 and accountability comes from multiple factors, right, such as 374 00:23:53,070 --> 00:23:57,450 problem definition, like have we had day as a group, we're able 375 00:23:57,450 --> 00:24:00,120 to define what problem they're trying to solve. And what's the 376 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:04,320 success metric once they solve that problem. So and they have 377 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,450 to make sure that, you know, they, that's it, then then we 378 00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:13,470 can tell from as a leadership, we can talk to them. And at the 379 00:24:13,470 --> 00:24:16,950 end of the meeting, at the end of the project, say like, Hey, 380 00:24:16,980 --> 00:24:19,620 did you achieve what you were what you said you would achieve? 381 00:24:19,710 --> 00:24:22,200 Jason Baum: And that's how we can provide that feedback. Yeah. 382 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,970 And provide the feedback. Yeah. Which is which is that that one 383 00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:32,940 of the final pieces right of that communication cycle? So how 384 00:24:32,940 --> 00:24:35,940 did how at pipe What are you doing at pipe to kind of keep 385 00:24:35,970 --> 00:24:42,660 things I guess, rewarding, to give a sense of you want people 386 00:24:42,660 --> 00:24:45,030 to be passionate about their work. Now, obviously, you can't 387 00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:47,940 make someone passionate about their work. But how do you keep 388 00:24:47,940 --> 00:24:51,870 it exciting? How do you keep them jazzed about you know 389 00:24:51,870 --> 00:24:57,810 what's going on and I guess, excited about what they do. 390 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,980 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, Um, so what I hear is that what, what 391 00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:08,610 makes a job reporting? I guess, right. So, in my opinion, 392 00:25:08,610 --> 00:25:15,990 they're like, three things that make an employee happy, like, in 393 00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:19,710 a broader scheme, like first is compensation if, and the second 394 00:25:19,710 --> 00:25:23,100 is team. And the third is like, what's the mission or project 395 00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:25,710 that you're working on, say like, if you have all three of 396 00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:28,350 them, like you have you enjoy the team, you have great 397 00:25:28,350 --> 00:25:30,870 compensation, you don't have to worry about it. And you believe 398 00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:33,090 in the mission that this and like, the problems you're 399 00:25:33,090 --> 00:25:36,120 solving are exciting. And I think like, that's an ideal 400 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:40,860 environment. If one of these three factors is off, then it 401 00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:43,830 creates weird dynamics where it's like, if the team is off, 402 00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:46,950 and it's like, I'm not sure if I want to work here, you know, 403 00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:50,670 like, this guys don't seem to be like, you know, XY and Z and 404 00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:54,450 whatnot, right? And then, and if two factors, or two of the three 405 00:25:54,450 --> 00:25:58,200 are not working, then it's like, why am I even in this team? So. 406 00:25:59,190 --> 00:26:02,040 So for us, it's important to make sure that, like, we cover 407 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,360 all of those things. And, yeah, and I think it also comes from 408 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:10,590 the fact that, like, all of us are super vulnerable and open. 409 00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:15,090 Like, I like I'm, I think it's okay to say that you don't know 410 00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:18,450 certain things. And then you are like, yeah, like, we always ask 411 00:26:18,450 --> 00:26:21,720 for feedback, like, Hey, how can we improve on that? And this? 412 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:28,620 And that? Oh, 100%? Yeah, I think I think 413 00:26:28,620 --> 00:26:30,570 Jason Baum: that's more important, right than asking for 414 00:26:30,570 --> 00:26:30,690 it. 415 00:26:32,130 --> 00:26:35,880 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, 100%, I think that's so important. And, 416 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,940 because initially, like that, like, like the first two years, 417 00:26:41,970 --> 00:26:46,950 right of the any team, any company's growth is, you know, 418 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:50,280 just kind of like, just trying to find the problem to solve. 419 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,550 And then we just work on projects, and you scale a team, 420 00:26:53,550 --> 00:26:57,330 you, you create something exciting, and then and then you 421 00:26:57,510 --> 00:27:01,710 reach a certain size in a team when, you know, like, if you 422 00:27:01,710 --> 00:27:07,650 don't have well. well documented values, for instance, are well 423 00:27:07,650 --> 00:27:11,940 documented processes in place, then people tend to create them 424 00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:15,630 for their own smaller circles. And that creates a division. 425 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,920 And, and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. How do we make 426 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,070 sure that like, we're all focused on the same goal, and 427 00:27:23,070 --> 00:27:26,280 how do we make sure that we are striving to improve 428 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,140 communication across the board? 429 00:27:29,099 --> 00:27:31,529 Jason Baum: Yeah, definitely. It's kind of like the struggle 430 00:27:31,529 --> 00:27:35,459 of you want hive mind, but that people keep their individuality. 431 00:27:35,489 --> 00:27:39,029 Right. It's like, it's nowhere in the world. No, no, and no 432 00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:43,649 other instance of life. Is this, like an acceptable way of going 433 00:27:43,649 --> 00:27:47,729 about it. But we do really want that right, the hive mind, but 434 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:52,469 all for positive. But you know, it's funny, because you 435 00:27:52,469 --> 00:27:55,829 mentioned the things that people value, you know, obviously 436 00:27:55,829 --> 00:28:01,379 compensation. And, but I think that the reasons why people 437 00:28:01,379 --> 00:28:05,099 leave their jobs isn't necessarily because of 438 00:28:05,099 --> 00:28:10,949 compensation. I think people leave their jobs, maybe because 439 00:28:10,949 --> 00:28:16,289 they're not being heard. Because communication is poor, because 440 00:28:17,189 --> 00:28:20,669 they're providing feedback. And it's not being taken because 441 00:28:21,749 --> 00:28:29,639 because there's a lack of the mission, like you said, silos. 442 00:28:29,879 --> 00:28:32,099 So it's funny, because it's like, all these things that you 443 00:28:32,099 --> 00:28:35,459 don't really necessarily not everyone goes into the job, you 444 00:28:35,459 --> 00:28:37,409 know, thinking about those things. They're like, Well, what 445 00:28:37,409 --> 00:28:42,179 do I get paid? And How flexible are you with my hours, which 446 00:28:42,179 --> 00:28:45,179 obviously, is important, but I think those other things are 447 00:28:45,179 --> 00:28:47,849 usually more important when leaving the job. 448 00:28:48,750 --> 00:28:51,270 Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, 100%, I think, and what we do is 449 00:28:51,270 --> 00:28:55,770 actually like, we have this retrospectives. And we do them 450 00:28:56,220 --> 00:29:00,060 upon achieving anything, or failing on any major milestone, 451 00:29:00,060 --> 00:29:04,770 right? So and it can be like, when we, when we have like, when 452 00:29:04,770 --> 00:29:08,250 we complete a project, or we complete a quarter, like, what 453 00:29:08,250 --> 00:29:12,630 did we do? Like, team sits down and they are like the whole 454 00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:15,540 company sit down and then say, Hey, what did we do, right? What 455 00:29:15,540 --> 00:29:20,070 did we do wrong? We have we make sure that like those, we 456 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:27,150 everyone has, like a time to ask to raise certain points. And 457 00:29:27,150 --> 00:29:30,660 then we create action items from that, to make sure that we 458 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,010 actually then like, follow up follow through on that on the 459 00:29:35,010 --> 00:29:35,460 retro 460 00:29:35,550 --> 00:29:40,110 Jason Baum: Yeah, keeping your word is incredibly important. I 461 00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:44,070 think for the company, and for the employee to write you say 462 00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:47,670 you're going to get a job done. Get the job done. If you can't 463 00:29:47,670 --> 00:29:52,020 get the job done, communicate it. You know, it's funny if you 464 00:29:52,110 --> 00:29:55,770 if you're missing deadlines, obviously it's gonna raise a red 465 00:29:55,770 --> 00:29:59,340 flag you're gonna be in trouble you know, whatever the you know, 466 00:29:59,340 --> 00:30:03,270 it's not gonna be good situation for you. But if you're gonna 467 00:30:03,270 --> 00:30:07,080 miss a deadline, and I feel like if you raise that flag earlier 468 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,860 in the process, and you look at it as I'm a sports, I'm a sports 469 00:30:10,860 --> 00:30:14,010 fan to kind of our but we can't win, I'm not allowed to talk 470 00:30:14,010 --> 00:30:18,510 about it too much on the podcast, I get in trouble. But 471 00:30:18,540 --> 00:30:23,100 if you look at it from a team sense, right sports, you win and 472 00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:26,310 you fail as a team, individual performance, yes, it's 473 00:30:26,310 --> 00:30:29,340 important. But at the end of the day, you know, individuals don't 474 00:30:29,340 --> 00:30:33,210 work when championships teams do, right. So when you have one 475 00:30:33,210 --> 00:30:38,190 individual who is struggling a little bit, and they're at least 476 00:30:38,190 --> 00:30:43,620 proactively honest about it, I think that's really important, 477 00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:46,140 because then the team can rally around that person and can help. 478 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,410 But when it's too late, it's too late for everyone. 479 00:30:50,159 --> 00:30:53,039 Kainar Kamalov: Exactly, I think that's a great point you touched 480 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:57,089 on, I think, what we also tried to do is to make sure that like, 481 00:30:57,269 --> 00:31:02,099 those things surfaced earlier in time. So and, and one on ones 482 00:31:02,099 --> 00:31:06,569 are a great way to do it, right? Like because in this, like the 483 00:31:06,569 --> 00:31:09,809 job of a manager of a lot of the times is to make sure that like, 484 00:31:10,709 --> 00:31:14,309 you know, like to keep people accountable, but at the same 485 00:31:14,309 --> 00:31:17,579 time protect them from, you know, like just being there as 486 00:31:17,579 --> 00:31:21,899 a, as a friend, making sure if there's something going on, that 487 00:31:22,019 --> 00:31:25,139 might be out of their control, right, like maybe some issues 488 00:31:25,169 --> 00:31:28,649 outside of the work, then like this person is actually being a 489 00:31:28,649 --> 00:31:32,669 shield, saying, hey, this person had some time of, like, let's 490 00:31:32,669 --> 00:31:37,439 make sure that, you know, like, let's not bother them for a bit. 491 00:31:37,829 --> 00:31:42,029 And on the other hand, if there is no like external factors, 492 00:31:42,029 --> 00:31:44,789 then maybe a manager job is like, Hey, you have to step up 493 00:31:44,789 --> 00:31:47,639 now in order for us to be able to achieve certain things. So 494 00:31:47,639 --> 00:31:51,149 it's like, it's more of an art than science there. 495 00:31:51,930 --> 00:31:55,050 Jason Baum: Yeah, totally. It's like navigating a ship. 496 00:31:55,050 --> 00:31:57,750 Sometimes, you know, it takes a while to turn it and it takes, 497 00:31:57,930 --> 00:32:00,870 you know, it's takes more than just one person to turn a cruise 498 00:32:00,870 --> 00:32:06,450 ship, right. So I really appreciate it. I think we've 499 00:32:06,450 --> 00:32:09,840 we've covered so much on the topic. And I appreciate your 500 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:16,860 time kind iron for coming to us all the way from Kyrgyzstan. And 501 00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:21,720 now the way we usually wrap up our podcast is that we ask one 502 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,450 question that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, 503 00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:31,770 but all about you. So to put you on the spot a little bit. What 504 00:32:31,770 --> 00:32:36,420 is one thing that you could be remembered for? If you could be 505 00:32:36,420 --> 00:32:38,340 remembered for one thing? What would that be? 506 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,030 Kainar Kamalov: Like after I die? Or like after this podcast? 507 00:32:42,690 --> 00:32:46,620 Jason Baum: Sure, whichever. I've never actually had someone 508 00:32:46,620 --> 00:32:50,520 interpret it that way. But I love that. But yeah, it's up to 509 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,690 you. I mean, typically, I think people think post mortem, but 510 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,930 Kainar Kamalov: that's too far for me to think about. So. Yeah, 511 00:33:00,930 --> 00:33:07,830 well, I think I, as I said, I do sports for fun. And I got into 512 00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:13,110 running like, like, couple, like five, six years ago. And so 513 00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:20,700 right now I hold Kyrgyzstan records for 5k 10k 21k and 42k. 514 00:33:20,910 --> 00:33:25,830 Like marathon Mau, among amateurs not among 515 00:33:25,830 --> 00:33:29,400 professionals. Yeah, that's a fact that 516 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,200 Jason Baum: have you ever thought about participating in 517 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,070 the Olympics? 518 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,810 Kainar Kamalov: I'm not that. And it's a lot of effort. You 519 00:33:36,810 --> 00:33:38,820 have no kid so many crazy hours. 520 00:33:39,180 --> 00:33:42,030 Jason Baum: Yeah, but you That's awesome. Congratulations on 521 00:33:42,030 --> 00:33:44,430 that. That's That's great. So you want to be remembered for 522 00:33:44,430 --> 00:33:48,720 your your running? Is that what you're saying? After this 523 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,570 podcast? Yeah, yeah, see, I'm putting the pressure on 524 00:33:51,570 --> 00:33:54,270 Kainar Kamalov: the better thing. Interesting actually, we 525 00:33:54,270 --> 00:33:58,410 just agential Running is I'm a coach, I'm a running coach as 526 00:33:58,410 --> 00:34:02,550 well part time right and, and I think has to do with 527 00:34:02,550 --> 00:34:05,010 communications and accountability all the time. So 528 00:34:05,010 --> 00:34:09,720 we have I'm coaching six people and they've been showing great 529 00:34:09,720 --> 00:34:12,810 results and they've been winning local starts as well. So I think 530 00:34:12,810 --> 00:34:17,280 that that speaks to just being like able to communicate and 531 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,960 make sure you build this trust and and they execute on so many 532 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,350 Jason Baum: traits right and coaching and then can be applied 533 00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:28,290 in Business and Management and culture shifts and all those 534 00:34:28,290 --> 00:34:33,690 things right i mean it's it's it's so similar very much and a 535 00:34:33,690 --> 00:34:37,230 lot of the things that we hold true you know, for sports can 536 00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:41,490 easily be applied. Yeah, thanks so much for being with us today 537 00:34:41,490 --> 00:34:47,580 Kiner and for for doing this. It's it's not super late by you, 538 00:34:47,580 --> 00:34:50,940 but it's pretty late by you when we're recording this. I really 539 00:34:50,940 --> 00:34:55,080 appreciate your you're staying up to do this. And I know you're 540 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,440 going to be up for a long time because you work with folks in 541 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,750 the States but I really put reciate it. 542 00:35:01,530 --> 00:35:03,690 Kainar Kamalov: Thank you, Jason. Yeah. Thanks for having 543 00:35:03,690 --> 00:35:03,870 me. 544 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,150 Jason Baum: Absolutely. And thanks for listening to this 545 00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:09,270 episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this 546 00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:12,660 episode the same way I always do encouraging you to become a 547 00:35:12,660 --> 00:35:16,500 member of the DevOps Institute to get access to even more great 548 00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:20,550 resources just like this one. Something fun that I'm going to 549 00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:26,040 announce. It's, maybe I'll drop a hint on this episode, and give 550 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,880 you more information on future ones. We are building something 551 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,800 at DevOps Institute. We call ourselves a community we are 552 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,610 community. Let's just put it this way. That's going to be 553 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:44,430 even more true, even more true, even truer going forward. So, a 554 00:35:44,430 --> 00:35:48,630 little more on that on a future episode. And until next time, 555 00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:52,290 stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, and stay human, 556 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:53,490 live long and prosper. 557 00:35:56,130 --> 00:35:58,230 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 558 00:35:58,230 --> 00:36:01,800 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 559 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,160 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 560 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,580 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 561 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:09,660 You belong