1 00:00:09,870 --> 00:00:12,630 Jason Baum: Hey everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member 2 00:00:12,630 --> 00:00:17,220 experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps 3 00:00:17,220 --> 00:00:22,410 podcast. Well, welcome back. Hope you had a great week. I had 4 00:00:22,410 --> 00:00:28,770 a good one. I was actually Nope. I'm not on vacation yet. Sorry. 5 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,910 Scratch that. Hold on data. Sorry, knows I need a lot of 6 00:00:32,910 --> 00:00:38,940 mental health. Hey, everyone, it's Jason bound Director of 7 00:00:38,940 --> 00:00:42,510 Member experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the 8 00:00:42,510 --> 00:00:46,500 humans of DevOps podcast. Welcome back. Hope you had a 9 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:52,320 great week. I had a great one. And today I am looking forward 10 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,650 to the greatness continuing, because I am in the presence of 11 00:00:55,650 --> 00:01:02,040 greatness. And and I cannot say enough about the person who is 12 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:08,340 the guest today. Last week, you were lucky enough? Yes, you are 13 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:10,860 listener, we're lucky enough. We're always lucky to have you. 14 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,720 But you were lucky to be able to hear the first ever humans of 15 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,880 DevOps podcast hosted by Jane Grohl the founder and co founder 16 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:27,210 and CEO of DevOps Institute. And so we were kind of playing our 17 00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:30,480 best ofs. And And this week, we're gonna play our current 18 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:38,700 hit. So with me today on the podcast is co founder and CEO of 19 00:01:38,700 --> 00:01:40,740 DevOps Institute. Jangro. 20 00:01:41,489 --> 00:01:44,699 Jayne Groll: Hey, Jason, Hey, everyone, how are you? I know, 21 00:01:44,699 --> 00:01:48,929 it's like, you know, before, during and after, right? So I'm 22 00:01:48,929 --> 00:01:51,569 really excited with everything you've done with this podcast, 23 00:01:51,569 --> 00:01:55,649 Jason. I mean, we started it as an idea. And then you've just 24 00:01:55,649 --> 00:01:59,879 taken it forward. And I think our audience, so appreciate the 25 00:02:00,119 --> 00:02:03,569 diversity and the range of guests that you've had really 26 00:02:03,569 --> 00:02:07,049 serving, you know, DevOps Institute's mission, which is we 27 00:02:07,049 --> 00:02:08,909 serve the humans of DevOps. 28 00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:12,180 Jason Baum: I actually think we're coming up on, I'm going to 29 00:02:12,180 --> 00:02:15,450 have to fact check it. Or someone else can fact check it. 30 00:02:15,450 --> 00:02:20,070 But I think we're coming up on one year that I've actually been 31 00:02:20,070 --> 00:02:23,490 hosting. I know I came on starting in March, you had me as 32 00:02:23,490 --> 00:02:25,890 a guest, and I think I just loved it so much that I was 33 00:02:25,890 --> 00:02:31,110 like, I want to stay. And and it's just been nonstop since and 34 00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:35,370 I think we've recorded oh my gosh, I think something like 40 35 00:02:35,370 --> 00:02:40,380 some odd episodes since which is absolutely bonkers. I don't know 36 00:02:40,380 --> 00:02:44,070 how that's happened. But here we are today. And yes, kind of come 37 00:02:44,070 --> 00:02:50,040 full circle. So welcome back to the humans of DevOps. And so the 38 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,890 question we always ask is, are you ready to get human? 39 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:56,970 Jayne Groll: I am so ready to get human, particularly in such 40 00:02:56,970 --> 00:03:01,350 a technical landscape landscape, right. So let's be human. 41 00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:05,370 Jason Baum: I have learned so much from you. In such a short 42 00:03:05,370 --> 00:03:08,400 period of time, I've been very lucky in the course of my 43 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,620 professional life to have known quite a bit of just really 44 00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:17,340 smart, influential people. And I have to say, in the short period 45 00:03:17,340 --> 00:03:23,250 of time that I have known Jane Grohl, I have learned so much. 46 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,060 And it has just been the fact that we actually never met in 47 00:03:27,060 --> 00:03:32,940 person, by the way, until February of 2022 is also just 48 00:03:33,330 --> 00:03:36,030 just absolutely insane to me, because I feel like I've known 49 00:03:36,030 --> 00:03:40,260 you my whole life in some respects. And I've learned so 50 00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:40,920 much from you. 51 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,370 Jayne Groll: Well, we, you know, you and I joke that we share a 52 00:03:44,370 --> 00:03:48,330 brain right, so, so yeah, it was really great pleasure to meet 53 00:03:48,330 --> 00:03:53,100 you. Again, I think that our paths were meant to cross and, 54 00:03:53,430 --> 00:03:56,940 and even just looking at this podcast, I mean, it kind of, 55 00:03:56,970 --> 00:04:00,840 again, the range of people that you've been able to bring on the 56 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,760 conversations, the passion that you feel for DevOps Institute 57 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,560 and for our members is, is just fantastic. And again, I 58 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,200 appreciate everything you're saying to me, but, you know, 59 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,370 this has been a labor of love for for me over the last seven 60 00:04:17,370 --> 00:04:21,780 years, being able to see kind of DevOps in its early days, and 61 00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:25,170 then being able to co found DevOps Institute with my 62 00:04:25,170 --> 00:04:30,060 partners, and then just watching the world. You know, I get to be 63 00:04:30,060 --> 00:04:35,580 the greatest observer of the humans of technology around the 64 00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:38,640 world. And, and it's a real privilege. I mean, it really is 65 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,590 a privilege to be able to do this. 66 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:43,890 Jason Baum: Well, you know, I think you'll probably remember 67 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:47,310 the conversation but when I when I started, and then especially 68 00:04:47,310 --> 00:04:52,770 when I started, like getting into the podcast. I was. I was a 69 00:04:52,770 --> 00:04:57,240 little what's the right word? I never afraid to have a 70 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,240 conversation. But I was intimidated. That's The right 71 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,310 word intimidated by this space, because DevOps and you hear 72 00:05:05,310 --> 00:05:09,240 about, I had never heard about it before coming on, we had some 73 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:14,040 really great conversations that led to my process of coming to 74 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,330 DevOps Institute, but you're really the one who kind of put 75 00:05:18,330 --> 00:05:22,470 it best and make me feel better about it. And, and the core, and 76 00:05:22,470 --> 00:05:26,910 the thing to remember is, it's all about people. And, and 77 00:05:26,910 --> 00:05:30,630 humans, we call them, you know, humans. And it's so funny, 78 00:05:30,630 --> 00:05:34,470 because as I've been here, I've seen the cultural, the cultural 79 00:05:34,470 --> 00:05:37,440 shift that's going on and that everybody is talking about 80 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,340 today. Yeah, here, we're talking about that. This, this was, this 81 00:05:41,340 --> 00:05:45,870 is like old news. I feel like to this industry, and to you, in 82 00:05:45,870 --> 00:05:48,990 particular, when you were telling me about it, you know, a 83 00:05:48,990 --> 00:05:52,050 year and a half, almost, you know, oh, geez, almost, yeah, 84 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:58,110 over a year and a half ago. And so I want to talk about DevOps, 85 00:05:58,110 --> 00:06:02,640 and I want to talk about just the digital transformation and 86 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:08,280 the cultural transformation that goes on. But isn't so funny how 87 00:06:08,310 --> 00:06:10,710 I feel like the world is starting to catch up? Do you 88 00:06:10,710 --> 00:06:11,670 feel that way? 89 00:06:12,510 --> 00:06:14,730 Jayne Groll: Actually, I think the world is always one step 90 00:06:14,730 --> 00:06:18,060 ahead of us. And it's really interesting, because I think, 91 00:06:18,090 --> 00:06:21,690 you know, as horrible as this pandemic has been, and you know, 92 00:06:21,690 --> 00:06:25,470 on the human toll, and on the social toll, it's just been 93 00:06:25,470 --> 00:06:29,280 horrific. It pushed us further into the future. As far as 94 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:33,150 technology goes, as far as social interactions goes, it's 95 00:06:33,150 --> 00:06:37,080 really kind of reshaped, what would have probably happened 96 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:41,610 anyhow, in terms of, you know, remote work from home and for in 97 00:06:41,610 --> 00:06:45,840 terms of technological advances, remote meetings, remote events, 98 00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:50,460 it probably would have happened anyhow. But we got we got pushed 99 00:06:51,180 --> 00:06:55,740 involuntarily into the future. And now we can't go backwards 100 00:06:55,740 --> 00:06:58,860 right now, we can't, you know, we can't go backwards. And, you 101 00:06:58,860 --> 00:07:01,410 know, to your point about humans, we use the term humans, 102 00:07:01,410 --> 00:07:05,790 because regardless of anything else, male female gender 103 00:07:05,790 --> 00:07:09,810 identity, where you're located regionally, at least today, 104 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,440 we're all human. And so it's a common characteristic among all 105 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,910 of us, that that we share, most of us wake up in the morning and 106 00:07:17,910 --> 00:07:21,630 just want to do right by our job, our family, our lifestyles. 107 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:26,460 And that's a very, very human right characteristics. So in a 108 00:07:26,460 --> 00:07:32,820 very technical landscape, it's so easy to forget about humans. 109 00:07:32,850 --> 00:07:36,060 And from the early days, our mission at DevOps Institute, has 110 00:07:36,060 --> 00:07:42,390 always been to advance, right to advocate to represent the human 111 00:07:42,390 --> 00:07:45,960 elements of a very, very technical society. So yeah, 112 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,680 we're catching up. But I still think it's like the carrot in 113 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,010 front of us, right, just about the point where, you know, if 114 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:55,200 you're a 200 year old enterprise, and you're trying to 115 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,660 figure out how to stay competitive, or you're a human 116 00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:01,590 that's, you know, been growing your career. It's a carrot 117 00:08:01,590 --> 00:08:05,280 that's always just, you know, quarter inch away from you, and 118 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,040 you're afraid you're just never going to catch it. And the truth 119 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:09,120 is, you probably never will. 120 00:08:10,589 --> 00:08:14,069 Jason Baum: There's a there's a phrase that people come on. A 121 00:08:14,069 --> 00:08:20,489 few people have used this. And, and I know there's a book, but 122 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:25,829 computers are easy, the people that people are hard. And isn't 123 00:08:25,829 --> 00:08:29,759 it true. But at the end of the day, we all just want to be 124 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:34,709 treated like people, you know, like humans, I this quote, and I 125 00:08:34,709 --> 00:08:38,459 don't know why, but it has been really just sticking in my mind 126 00:08:38,459 --> 00:08:43,619 when I think about treating others, like humans treating 127 00:08:43,619 --> 00:08:48,029 each other like humans and how, in in the workplace. This seems 128 00:08:48,029 --> 00:08:53,999 to be. Unfortunately, it was not the rule. Right. It was always 129 00:08:53,999 --> 00:08:59,039 kind of the exception, and now it's becoming. That's not the 130 00:08:59,039 --> 00:09:02,369 rule yet. But But I think there's a big shift for it 131 00:09:02,369 --> 00:09:05,729 happening. But there's the quote, from The Merchant of 132 00:09:05,729 --> 00:09:09,479 Venice, that I just love this quote, and, and the character 133 00:09:09,479 --> 00:09:12,059 obviously, there's all Oh, we don't have to get into the 134 00:09:12,059 --> 00:09:16,889 Merchant of Venice, but that Shylock, quote, you know, of, 135 00:09:17,099 --> 00:09:20,909 you know, if you prick us, do we not bleed if you tickle us? Do 136 00:09:20,909 --> 00:09:25,709 we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? It's like, what 137 00:09:25,709 --> 00:09:28,679 says it better than that? It just says that all. 138 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,120 Jayne Groll: Yeah, absolutely. And again, you know, in the 139 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,700 early days of technology, I mean, people forget, we're 140 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:40,170 really young industry. So we're almost just teenagers right now, 141 00:09:40,170 --> 00:09:43,500 and maybe even a little belligerent. We can talk about 142 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:46,410 the great resignation and the fact that, you know, these 143 00:09:46,410 --> 00:09:49,800 generations that are younger than I am, are really taking 144 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,600 hold. You know, they're emboldened by, by the, you know, 145 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,940 the worst conditions of the pandemic and they don't want to 146 00:09:56,940 --> 00:10:00,600 go backwards. Right. But as humans, you know, the Only days, 147 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,600 we had social interactions with each other, you know, we were 25 148 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,870 people on the same floor in the same building, I worked in lower 149 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:10,620 Manhattan, right, that's how I started my Accidental Technology 150 00:10:10,620 --> 00:10:14,790 career. And then, you know, as it grew, and companies grew, and 151 00:10:14,790 --> 00:10:18,780 they globalized and, and all of that, that, you know, the 152 00:10:18,780 --> 00:10:22,740 ability to know each other, their families go have a beer 153 00:10:22,740 --> 00:10:25,650 together a cup of coffee, or have lunch together, that 154 00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:29,580 changed, right, it changed. And then as the different 155 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,510 specialties within it happened, we grew further and further and 156 00:10:33,510 --> 00:10:37,530 further apart, so that we didn't know each other anymore. And the 157 00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:40,140 social side of it really disappeared. And the one thing 158 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:42,450 that we know about people, whether you're an introvert or 159 00:10:42,450 --> 00:10:47,220 an extrovert, you need to know that, that your organization, 160 00:10:47,220 --> 00:10:50,850 your managers, your colleagues care about you write it, you 161 00:10:50,850 --> 00:10:54,090 know, we're talking quotes, one of my favorite quotes is from 162 00:10:54,090 --> 00:10:57,690 Zig Ziglar, who was just if you've never, you know, listened 163 00:10:57,690 --> 00:11:01,740 to Zig Ziglar, that great Mississippi accent, he was a 164 00:11:01,740 --> 00:11:06,330 sales, a sales mentor, but he said nobody will care how much 165 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:10,590 you know, unless they know that you care about them. And, and I 166 00:11:10,590 --> 00:11:16,080 think that, you know, for a long time enterprises, I don't think 167 00:11:16,170 --> 00:11:19,590 I don't think maliciously, but we were a commodity, right, we, 168 00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:23,340 you know, they're the humans are a commodity. And in technology, 169 00:11:23,970 --> 00:11:27,930 we've never been a commodity, but we we look at the technology 170 00:11:27,930 --> 00:11:32,640 first and the human after, right. And so, you know, you 171 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,800 mentioned digital transformation, digital 172 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,840 transformation is not going to happen without human 173 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,890 transformation. It's just, it can't humans still have to 174 00:11:40,890 --> 00:11:43,770 author they still have to administer these, you know, they 175 00:11:43,770 --> 00:11:47,490 still have to select different technology. So, you know, we can 176 00:11:47,490 --> 00:11:50,580 talk all we want about digital transformation, and it's a nice 177 00:11:50,580 --> 00:11:55,350 hype term, but it's going to be humans that power that. And, and 178 00:11:55,380 --> 00:11:58,560 humans, again, are going to need to collaborate, they're going to 179 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:02,460 need to be good systems thinker, they need to be diverse, they 180 00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:05,640 need to have good empathy. You know, these are all I mean, our 181 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:09,810 upskilling report era for years shows that your human skills are 182 00:12:09,810 --> 00:12:14,550 as important as your technical skills. So again, and we get we 183 00:12:14,550 --> 00:12:18,210 get a front row seat to that, right, because luckily, you and 184 00:12:18,210 --> 00:12:21,660 I and the rest of our team, you know, we interact with so many 185 00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:25,950 different regions of the world. So many different people have 186 00:12:25,950 --> 00:12:29,160 different backgrounds, different experiences, different cultures, 187 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,810 that we see this is just a common need. Right? We need to 188 00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:36,120 we need to be respectful. 189 00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:40,800 Jason Baum: Yeah. Gotham palapa has the book leading with 190 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,770 empathy. I mean, I love that is there anything better than that? 191 00:12:43,770 --> 00:12:47,550 I mean, it's so true. When you're when you're, when you can 192 00:12:47,550 --> 00:12:52,650 lead with empathy. It just makes it you're all going the same 193 00:12:52,650 --> 00:12:55,380 direction, when you can understand what the other person 194 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:57,750 is going through what they can understand what you're going 195 00:12:57,750 --> 00:13:02,880 through, you can see Siva, through the world do this not 196 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,190 the same lens, because we're all gonna have different lenses, but 197 00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:08,610 understanding that those lenses are different, and that's okay. 198 00:13:08,610 --> 00:13:12,240 And we can all get through it together, we're going along the 199 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,590 same direction rather than working against each other. So, 200 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,930 I guess I would, I'm just curious, what is it about DevOps 201 00:13:21,930 --> 00:13:27,810 for you? Why did you Why is this the particular direction for 202 00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:30,480 your career? Why, why did you choose DevOps? 203 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,510 Jayne Groll: I don't know that I chose it or it chose me so 204 00:13:33,510 --> 00:13:36,810 there's there's that but that's been kind of the pattern share 205 00:13:36,810 --> 00:13:38,520 Jason Baum: the brain, I knew that was gonna be yours. I 206 00:13:40,590 --> 00:13:43,140 Jayne Groll: told you, I'm an accidental technologist, I, you 207 00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:46,140 know, I have a degree in music, I got out of college, there was 208 00:13:46,140 --> 00:13:50,610 just no jobs under AM. And my mother taught me to type. So I 209 00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:53,670 was a paralegal legal secretary for the first part of my career, 210 00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:56,490 until I bumped into an organization that was pretty 211 00:13:56,490 --> 00:13:59,220 progressive in technology. But you know, to answer your 212 00:13:59,220 --> 00:14:02,460 question about DevOps, so I come from the ITIL space, right, so 213 00:14:02,460 --> 00:14:07,080 after I was a director of it for a long time, and manage large IT 214 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,770 organizations kind of fell into ITIL, which was you know more 215 00:14:10,770 --> 00:14:14,670 about how to run it more like a business and had a very, very 216 00:14:14,670 --> 00:14:19,200 good career in that, and then literally just bumped into 217 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:24,420 DevOps, like we got invited to a DevOps days in 2012. by Jean 218 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:27,540 Kim, many of you know him as the author of the Phoenix Project, 219 00:14:27,570 --> 00:14:32,790 who was a friend from the ITIL space. And we saw Spark, like 220 00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:36,960 there were 300 people in this old dusty warehouse. I've told 221 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,720 this story a bunch of times, they were like 300 people, five 222 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,320 of which were women. The evening music was bring your own 223 00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:47,370 instrument and we'll just jam and and it was very organic. And 224 00:14:47,370 --> 00:14:51,810 there was a lot of discussion about culture. Right and and it 225 00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:55,680 was it was a wake up call that in it while we were progressing. 226 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:02,340 Technically, we were losing our sense To our cultural aspects, I 227 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,950 like the word culture, but I also hate the word culture 228 00:15:04,950 --> 00:15:08,250 because it sounds so surgical, right? Like, oh, let's take out 229 00:15:08,250 --> 00:15:11,100 the old culture and put it in a new culture. But there was 230 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:16,560 something there. That was very exciting. And this is in the 231 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,260 very early days where the Wall Street Journal was writing 232 00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:22,140 articles about whether DevOps could cross the chasm into the 233 00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:24,510 enterprise. So I mean, that question has been asked and 234 00:15:24,510 --> 00:15:27,030 answered, but but the point is, there was something there was a 235 00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:31,350 spark there that you could see that, you know, I mean, think 236 00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:34,350 about what DevOps means developers and operations, okay, 237 00:15:34,350 --> 00:15:37,530 security, you know, felt a little left out. But it meant 238 00:15:37,530 --> 00:15:41,520 that these teams had to work better together. That's that's 239 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,220 the heartbeat. It wasn't about continuous integration or 240 00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:48,570 continuous delivery. It was, how do we create an environment 241 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:51,630 where there's more collaboration, there's more 242 00:15:51,630 --> 00:15:55,230 cooperation, there's shared tools, accountabilities, things 243 00:15:55,230 --> 00:15:58,950 like that. So from the very early days, it was meant to be a 244 00:15:58,950 --> 00:16:03,210 human movement. Right. And of course, you know, the other part 245 00:16:03,210 --> 00:16:05,940 of it is let's embrace automation so that it'll do all 246 00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:11,280 the boring, redundant work. But it was never meant to be 247 00:16:11,310 --> 00:16:15,450 specifically a technical, you know, framework or anything like 248 00:16:15,450 --> 00:16:18,900 that. It was all about how do we work together better? How do we 249 00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:22,500 increase flow by doing that, and that, to me, was very, very 250 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:26,550 exciting. And I thought that enterprises might embrace it. 251 00:16:26,580 --> 00:16:29,580 But it took a couple of years before we even founded DevOps 252 00:16:29,580 --> 00:16:34,020 Institute. So that was 2012, we founded DevOps Institute in late 253 00:16:34,020 --> 00:16:39,990 2014. So we kind of watched, you know, what was happening at 254 00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:44,100 Netflix and Google and, you know, all these companies that 255 00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:45,660 were kind of excited about it. 256 00:16:46,950 --> 00:16:51,270 Jason Baum: So with the transformation, whether it be 257 00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:58,320 digital, cultural, what have you. It takes a certain skill, 258 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,590 right, takes certain skills to be able to do these things, and 259 00:17:01,620 --> 00:17:09,540 are relatively new, or newer. Field, really? Where do these 260 00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:13,770 skills come from? And where did the talent, where's that talent 261 00:17:13,770 --> 00:17:16,890 come from? What are the skills that make the talent for it? 262 00:17:17,670 --> 00:17:20,190 Jayne Groll: Well, that's interesting, because part of it 263 00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:24,240 is individual and part of it is corporate, right? I can't force 264 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,300 you to learn something, right? I could give you every resource, 265 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:30,210 every opportunity. But even though we joke that we share a 266 00:17:30,210 --> 00:17:34,560 brain, your brain has to be the one willing and excited and 267 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,580 taking the time and effort and having the accessibility to be 268 00:17:38,580 --> 00:17:42,060 able to learn but but you have to want to learn, right, and 269 00:17:42,060 --> 00:17:45,030 it's difficult. I mean, my generation, you know, that's the 270 00:17:45,030 --> 00:17:48,480 way we've always done it, that's the way we should do it. And 271 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,810 today, it's happening so quickly, there is a huge skills 272 00:17:51,810 --> 00:17:55,350 gap today, between the organizations that want to move 273 00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:59,430 forward, and the available skills, and individuals, some 274 00:17:59,430 --> 00:18:01,830 people call them talent. Again, it's another one of those 275 00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:07,230 surgical terms, but the talent that's available, you know, we 276 00:18:07,230 --> 00:18:10,170 do our annual upskilling report, the next one is going to release 277 00:18:10,170 --> 00:18:14,250 on May 12. And we see a couple of interesting things in terms 278 00:18:14,250 --> 00:18:17,340 of skills. There's certain technical or functional skills 279 00:18:17,340 --> 00:18:21,480 that everybody I don't care what your role is, should be 280 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,410 exploring getting education on again, we have 11 281 00:18:25,410 --> 00:18:30,420 certifications, really being able to take training or to to 282 00:18:30,420 --> 00:18:36,210 self teach, and that security cloud operations, right all of 283 00:18:36,210 --> 00:18:40,230 that is essential to today's IT professionals and there's 284 00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:44,730 there's access to that type of resource, whether it's through 285 00:18:44,730 --> 00:18:49,080 us or whether it's self learn peer to peer, those skills are 286 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,350 the skills of the future, the tangible, functional technical 287 00:18:52,350 --> 00:18:57,060 skills. But for four years in a row, it's the human skills. You 288 00:18:57,060 --> 00:18:59,880 know, you just mentioned like, you know, Gotham's leading with 289 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,210 empathy. Yes, I don't think there's anybody that will say I 290 00:19:03,210 --> 00:19:07,200 don't think I need empathy. Right? Or I don't think that I 291 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,430 should be a better collaborator. No, no, no. The problem is, 292 00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:14,460 there isn't a lot of of, I don't know, if you want to call it 293 00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:18,720 skilling on how, you know, there's kind of an assumption 294 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,620 that either you're good at it or you're not, or you know, you're 295 00:19:22,620 --> 00:19:26,160 a good communicator or you're not or you're an extrovert or an 296 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,890 introvert and therefore, you're assigned certain 297 00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:32,940 characteristics, when there are tangible, right, there are 298 00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:39,330 tangible ways to intentionally try and the word try is so 299 00:19:39,330 --> 00:19:44,760 important in terms of human skills to try to improve your 300 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,860 empathy or to try to be a better communicator. There are 301 00:19:49,860 --> 00:19:54,120 techniques that are out there that are, you know, that are 302 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,960 known and proven and are not necessarily surgical. They're 303 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:58,860 very human. 304 00:20:00,329 --> 00:20:03,929 Jason Baum: I couldn't agree with that more, I like smile as 305 00:20:03,929 --> 00:20:08,309 you're talking because it's like, so I just, we don't 306 00:20:08,399 --> 00:20:11,999 emphasize it enough. In the collective we like culturally, 307 00:20:12,269 --> 00:20:17,969 there's that word. The, what we're called soft skills we call 308 00:20:17,969 --> 00:20:22,469 human skills are like, yeah, they're important. And then no 309 00:20:22,469 --> 00:20:29,099 one pays attention to them until it's too late. Or we don't put 310 00:20:29,099 --> 00:20:31,859 our mouth where our money where our mouth is. 311 00:20:32,550 --> 00:20:34,290 Jayne Groll: Because there's an assumption that you're going to 312 00:20:34,290 --> 00:20:38,640 either do that on your own, or that it's very Fluffy, fluffy, 313 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,110 right. That's the problem. And yeah, and I mean, when you look 314 00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:47,910 at training, budgets, right training budgets on, you know, 315 00:20:48,090 --> 00:20:52,560 how to be a, you know, how to look at diversity and inclusion, 316 00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:55,830 some of that training is happening now. Same thing with, 317 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,000 you know, sexual harassment training or, you know, 318 00:21:00,030 --> 00:21:03,120 unconscious bias training. I mean, companies are investing in 319 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:08,130 that. But I can tell you, you know, Jason, I really think that 320 00:21:08,130 --> 00:21:11,580 you should improve your collaboration skills. And you'll 321 00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:15,450 say, oh, Jane, thank you for that feedback. And then you walk 322 00:21:15,450 --> 00:21:18,750 away, go, Okay, I don't know how to do that. Right. What should I 323 00:21:18,750 --> 00:21:23,250 do? Where do I start? Right. And so it's, it's hard, right? Soft 324 00:21:23,250 --> 00:21:24,210 skills are hard. 325 00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:26,130 Jason Baum: Think about diversity inclusion for a 326 00:21:26,130 --> 00:21:31,950 second. The obviously, that's not well, diversity and 327 00:21:31,950 --> 00:21:36,600 inclusion as a as a pillar as like something that now we have 328 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,010 diversity inclusion officers, there is a, there is an actual 329 00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:46,980 emphasis being placed on it. And it is a mission now, right? For 330 00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:50,610 many that we are, we are diverse and inclusive, and it's 331 00:21:50,610 --> 00:21:54,660 something that now appears on every job posting in it, there 332 00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:58,680 is an emphasis, but what took what happened to get to that 333 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,290 point? I mean, think about how many years we had to go before 334 00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:10,110 diversity and inclusion was made a priority. So now you say like, 335 00:22:10,290 --> 00:22:13,650 yeah, that, that it's that is Fufu, or fluffy or whatever, 336 00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:16,410 that some of these other aspects, human aspects are 337 00:22:16,410 --> 00:22:20,010 incredibly important, by the way, and no, no one is more 338 00:22:20,010 --> 00:22:23,280 important. Well, being diverse, being diverse and inclusive is 339 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,690 pretty important, but sort of these others, and, I mean, 340 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,050 there, it literally takes people got it, getting into the 341 00:22:31,050 --> 00:22:38,010 streets, and, and marching and protesting and, you know, 342 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,140 getting in people's faces, to get one of these things checked 343 00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:46,200 off as a mission. What do we have to do for the others? 344 00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:50,160 Jayne Groll: Well, and that's a challenge, because I also wonder 345 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,420 whether, because we remember I can I can give you all the 346 00:22:54,420 --> 00:22:57,480 access in the world, I can create a diverse team where we 347 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,790 have women, people of color, we have diversity, right? We we 348 00:23:02,790 --> 00:23:07,890 require inclusiveness, but unless you, Jason, right, have 349 00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:13,410 now opened your mind, right to be able to change some of your 350 00:23:13,410 --> 00:23:16,860 thought patterns, some of your behaviors, whatever, then it's 351 00:23:16,860 --> 00:23:19,530 not going to get us where we need to be. And there's training 352 00:23:19,530 --> 00:23:22,440 and techniques to do that. I'll give you an example. Conflict 353 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,070 Management, right? So people deal with conflict they have a 354 00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:29,340 go to. And I'm so sorry, because I know that you've been 355 00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:31,380 struggling with a with a cold this week. 356 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,440 Jason Baum: Yeah, I have bronchitis for everyone 357 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,670 listening. So that's why I'm, if you're listening, you're 358 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,740 hopefully you can't tell I'm muting myself. 359 00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:43,710 Jayne Groll: If you're not contagious, not contagious. 360 00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:44,700 Jason Baum: not contagious. Just 361 00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:49,530 Jayne Groll: know, but But you know, look at conflict 362 00:23:49,530 --> 00:23:54,000 management. So we all have a go to on conflict management, 363 00:23:54,210 --> 00:23:58,740 right? You may be an avoider, you may be a win win, you always 364 00:23:58,740 --> 00:24:01,860 have to win on these kinds of things. Or you may be a lose, 365 00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:05,310 lose, right? Or you may be passive aggressive. But there 366 00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:06,900 are techniques, there's something called the Thomas 367 00:24:06,900 --> 00:24:10,650 Killman inventory that will assess like what your conflict 368 00:24:10,650 --> 00:24:15,900 management style is. But it will also tell you when to use the 369 00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:20,430 other styles, and how to learn to be able to know when to 370 00:24:20,430 --> 00:24:23,820 compromise, how to know how to work with somebody else whose 371 00:24:23,820 --> 00:24:27,150 style may be different than yours. I know you've done disc 372 00:24:27,150 --> 00:24:30,840 and Myers Briggs with your team and with others, it helps you to 373 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,310 understand not only you but it helps you understand your 374 00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:39,060 teammates so that you know some people like that, hey, how's the 375 00:24:39,060 --> 00:24:41,820 family how whatever, and some people just want to get right to 376 00:24:41,820 --> 00:24:44,520 it. And how do you know the difference in who you're 377 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,490 communicating with? So, you know, it is a little bit of a 378 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:52,560 personal journey. It requires an openness and it also requires 379 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,490 corporate support. To be I've worked for organizations where 380 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,000 you know, we did do Myers Briggs on everybody. And that's not the 381 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,640 perfect solution. All right, sometimes it's having a brown 382 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,730 bag lunch and getting to know people, right? I mean, sometimes 383 00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:11,460 it's as simple as, as, again, do a zoom brown bag lunch, and 384 00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:14,850 don't talk about work. Just talk about yourselves, what books are 385 00:25:14,850 --> 00:25:17,940 you reading? What music do you like, you know, create that 386 00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:20,490 relation humans are relationship people 387 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,660 Jason Baum: comes back to empathy. I think that's I mean, 388 00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:30,000 for myself for my team, why we did it? Why I why I had 389 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,000 everybody do it was, I want to learn about everybody, I want to 390 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,090 know you, I want to know, you know, if you don't want to small 391 00:25:36,090 --> 00:25:39,210 talk, let me know, like, I want to know that I want to know, 392 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,080 that means we're going straight to the Congress. And I want you 393 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:48,480 to know what it is for me to. So that you know how I want to have 394 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,200 a conversation. And then we have I'm going to, they don't, they 395 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,070 don't know it yet. But there, we've sort of filled this out. 396 00:25:56,670 --> 00:25:59,850 We're just starting it. But there's a handbook that we're 397 00:25:59,850 --> 00:26:03,180 going to have for working together for the team. And it's 398 00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:06,060 got some of those things like you just mentioned our Myers 399 00:26:06,060 --> 00:26:10,500 Briggs Personality in it. It's got our work anniversary, Scott, 400 00:26:10,530 --> 00:26:15,270 what pronouns do we want to use? The areas of focus that we love, 401 00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:19,740 things that fit in? How does different things that we do fit 402 00:26:19,740 --> 00:26:26,130 into our life outside of work? You know, what music to, like, 403 00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:31,230 just all the so aspects of professional life, and personal 404 00:26:31,230 --> 00:26:35,880 because it is all all in one. Have you seen the show, there's 405 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:44,970 this show, I believe it's on Apple. And it's called oh my 406 00:26:44,970 --> 00:26:49,710 gosh, I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, it's a, it's 407 00:26:49,710 --> 00:26:52,080 gonna come to me because it's it's part of the process, but 408 00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:57,000 they literally separate the part of your mind that your work, 409 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,460 memories stay at work, and your home memories stay at home, and 410 00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:06,900 they never meet. And so there's a work you that exists, and is 411 00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:09,960 just always at work, and has nothing else outside of work. 412 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,550 And then there's the homie. And it's, it's really fascinating. 413 00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:20,910 Because my gosh, that doesn't exist. We are all in one one 414 00:27:20,910 --> 00:27:21,510 person. 415 00:27:22,289 --> 00:27:25,259 Jayne Groll: Yeah, but you know what? This is a great example. 416 00:27:25,259 --> 00:27:29,249 So you took the initiative as a leader to do this with your 417 00:27:29,249 --> 00:27:32,459 team. It isn't a company wide initiative. Right? You did this 418 00:27:32,459 --> 00:27:36,599 on your own? But that's But Well, not yet. Right. But but 419 00:27:36,629 --> 00:27:39,149 but this is a message to our audience that I think that's 420 00:27:39,149 --> 00:27:45,419 really, really significant. A leader that's inspired to want 421 00:27:45,419 --> 00:27:49,739 to improve the work environment, that one do, you spend more time 422 00:27:49,739 --> 00:27:52,169 at work than you spend in any other part of your life, but a 423 00:27:52,169 --> 00:27:55,019 leader that's inspired to want to improve the work environment 424 00:27:55,019 --> 00:27:58,739 to improve the relationship between teammates to get to know 425 00:27:58,739 --> 00:28:02,699 each other? Right? Jason, you're doing that. And again, you 426 00:28:02,699 --> 00:28:05,429 didn't come to me for funding, you didn't come and say, oh, I 427 00:28:05,429 --> 00:28:08,759 need you know, whatever, whatever, you just did it, 428 00:28:08,879 --> 00:28:12,119 right? You just did it. So if you're listening, you know, the 429 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,009 old Nike just do it, there are so many resources, to be able 430 00:28:17,009 --> 00:28:20,099 to, whether you're the official leader of your team, or you're a 431 00:28:20,099 --> 00:28:22,949 member of your team, there's so many resources that are 432 00:28:22,949 --> 00:28:28,319 available that you could just do to be a but you have to want it 433 00:28:28,409 --> 00:28:32,999 right you have to want to create an environment or be that 434 00:28:32,999 --> 00:28:36,299 evangelist or that change agent, whatever term you want to use. 435 00:28:37,169 --> 00:28:41,519 Because again, you can just do it right, and your teammates, 436 00:28:41,729 --> 00:28:44,009 you know, once somebody takes the lead, whether it's the 437 00:28:44,009 --> 00:28:46,289 official leader or not, once somebody takes the lead and the 438 00:28:46,289 --> 00:28:49,139 ball gets rolling, most people like that, I mean, you're not 439 00:28:49,139 --> 00:28:51,749 going to cross the line into, you know, too personal and 440 00:28:51,749 --> 00:28:55,889 people will let you know that. But on the other hand, were 441 00:28:55,889 --> 00:28:59,909 relationships and your work relationship is almost as 442 00:28:59,909 --> 00:29:04,739 important not quite as your home relationship. Right. And so, you 443 00:29:04,739 --> 00:29:07,259 know, people make friends at work. Well, I have friends 444 00:29:07,259 --> 00:29:11,789 around the world that I have never met in person. Right? Lots 445 00:29:11,789 --> 00:29:16,739 of them. But But again, you know, we kind of, we kind of go 446 00:29:16,739 --> 00:29:20,339 through this thing. So again, if you're listening and hear what 447 00:29:20,339 --> 00:29:24,539 Jason's telling you, you can just do it right? You can build 448 00:29:24,539 --> 00:29:28,139 your own team handbook and maybe another peer leader, what 449 00:29:28,139 --> 00:29:30,929 decides they want to do that too. And then it becomes viral 450 00:29:30,929 --> 00:29:35,699 and it doesn't require some type of Act, right? Some type of 451 00:29:35,699 --> 00:29:39,599 mandate from upper management to be able to make that happen, 452 00:29:39,599 --> 00:29:42,989 because by the way, in culture, upper upper management mandates 453 00:29:42,989 --> 00:29:46,439 almost never work. They never work, right? Because you can't 454 00:29:46,439 --> 00:29:48,419 force it. It has to be from within. 455 00:29:48,690 --> 00:29:51,450 Jason Baum: It's got to be organic. Yeah, it does. And real 456 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,430 authentic people can see right through it, right. 457 00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:56,790 Jayne Groll: Yeah, I mean, you know, organic. I love that word 458 00:29:56,790 --> 00:30:01,230 too, right. Think about the term organic right? I mean, you know, 459 00:30:01,260 --> 00:30:06,180 it has to be, it has to be a combination. And if you're 460 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:10,440 sitting there waiting for your upper management to, you know, 461 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,760 deem something to happen, that's not the right approach, right? 462 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,550 It's not a right approach. Talk to one of your peers, talk to 463 00:30:17,550 --> 00:30:21,000 one of your colleagues. Have a cup of coffee, even if it's on 464 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:21,390 Zoom. 465 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,590 Jason Baum: Love it. Love it. We could talk forever, Jane. 466 00:30:25,710 --> 00:30:27,870 Jayne Groll: I know. I know. It's, 467 00:30:27,870 --> 00:30:31,050 Jason Baum: it's a, it's so nice to just be able to talk to you 468 00:30:31,860 --> 00:30:35,580 like this. And we talk all the time. But I love the coffee. I 469 00:30:35,580 --> 00:30:38,910 like when we get into it like this. This is This is wonderful. 470 00:30:38,910 --> 00:30:45,270 I feel like we could do a whole other podcast. So so the thing 471 00:30:45,270 --> 00:30:49,710 that we like to do at the end of the show, is ask one somewhat 472 00:30:49,710 --> 00:30:52,200 personal question, because it's human, right? The humans of 473 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,010 DevOps. So I'm going to ask you this one, because I'm just 474 00:30:56,010 --> 00:31:00,300 curious. So if you could, if you could be remembered for one 475 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:01,860 thing, what would that be? 476 00:31:02,820 --> 00:31:05,370 Jayne Groll: Oh, that's a really hard question. I mean, I've been 477 00:31:05,370 --> 00:31:11,130 so blessed. In my life, I've had a really great career. I've met 478 00:31:11,130 --> 00:31:14,940 some amazing people. But I'd like to think that I've been 479 00:31:14,940 --> 00:31:18,720 human, all the way through that, that I'm true to true to my 480 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,500 values again, you know, nobody's perfect, right? I'm a little bit 481 00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:25,440 of the crazy cat lady. So you probably saw some of my cats 482 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,040 walking by in the background. But if I could be remembered for 483 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,060 anything, I'd like to be remembered for the fact that I 484 00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:37,860 kept humanity right at the forefront of, of whether it's my 485 00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:42,210 family, whether it's whether it's my work environment that I 486 00:31:42,210 --> 00:31:43,110 stayed human. 487 00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:52,500 Jason Baum: I love it. Love it. And thank you so much for sorry. 488 00:31:54,330 --> 00:31:59,280 I really appreciate your coming back on the show. And and 489 00:31:59,310 --> 00:32:04,710 letting us play last week's episode, the first ever episode. 490 00:32:05,130 --> 00:32:08,670 So if you didn't get a chance to listen to that, go back and have 491 00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:12,330 a chance to listen to it now. And then coming back on and 492 00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:14,760 coming full circle. This has been absolutely a pleasure. 493 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,340 Jayne Groll: And I'm so proud of what you've done with this 494 00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:20,430 podcast and with our member experience. Jason, I mean that 495 00:32:20,430 --> 00:32:26,220 for my art. I'm so glad that you agreed to takeover as, as host. 496 00:32:26,220 --> 00:32:30,570 And and for those of you listening, you know, this humans 497 00:32:30,570 --> 00:32:35,730 a DevOps podcast is really under, under Jason's really 498 00:32:35,850 --> 00:32:40,380 tutelage of sorts. I'm, I'm very proud of what you've been able 499 00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:41,310 to accomplish. 500 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,010 Jason Baum: Thank you. Thank you. It means a lot. And, and I 501 00:32:44,010 --> 00:32:49,500 have to say, the credit really goes to, to Jaida, who is our 502 00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:53,850 producer, and I'm going to call her out and give her some 503 00:32:53,850 --> 00:32:58,350 credit. She likes to stay behind. Behind the mic, I guess. 504 00:32:58,710 --> 00:33:03,870 Behind the camera. And and yeah, we've we we can't do it without 505 00:33:03,870 --> 00:33:05,130 you, Jane. So thank you. 506 00:33:06,270 --> 00:33:08,520 Jayne Groll: Yeah, really? The HUD pod squad? Isn't that what 507 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,090 we call it? 508 00:33:09,450 --> 00:33:11,190 Jason Baum: That's what we call it internal. Yeah, that's our 509 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,150 internal. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for listening to this 510 00:33:15,150 --> 00:33:18,480 episode of the humans of DevOps podcast. We had fun. Hope you 511 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,750 did, too. I'm going to end this episode. Oh, before we go, 512 00:33:21,750 --> 00:33:29,010 though, I'm so excited because I'm going on vacation. So I'm 513 00:33:29,460 --> 00:33:33,240 saying this, I'm going on vacation. I'm off to, I'm gonna 514 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,440 say where I'm going to St. Lucia. And so I will be back. 515 00:33:37,950 --> 00:33:39,990 You know, at some point, maybe we'll say no, yeah, I'll 516 00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:44,580 definitely be back in a week. But so next week is going to be 517 00:33:44,610 --> 00:33:49,470 a rerun, and then I'll be back in the in the microphone on the 518 00:33:49,470 --> 00:33:52,950 mic. I don't know how this works. I'll be back in a week. 519 00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:56,280 So I'm going to end this episode the same way I always do 520 00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:59,640 encourage you to become a member of DevOps Institute Institute to 521 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,330 get access to even more great resources just like this one. I 522 00:34:03,330 --> 00:34:07,320 made it I made it and I didn't lose my voice. I'm so proud of 523 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,370 myself for that. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, 524 00:34:11,610 --> 00:34:15,570 and most of all, stay human. Live long and prosper. 525 00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:17,040 Jayne Groll: Bye, everyone.