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Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker.
I'm Lucy Dearlove. This

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month...Oranges and Lemons

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Selin Kiazim: An example is that
or...to...a couple of other

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traditional things that we have
and one is a lahmacun, which is

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a thin flatbread topped with
spiced lamb mince and then you

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have it with a salad and a
squeeze of lemon, always.

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Lucy Dearlove: It's a sunny
Monday lunchtime in January, and

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I'm sitting at a table in Selin
Kiazim's Shoreditch restaurant

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Oklava. Oklava is broadly a
restaurant with Turkish

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influence although Selin, who's
British Cypriot, would prefer

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not to be pigeonholed as such.

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Selin Kiazim: I always say if I
like...if I didn't have to be

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labelled, I'd prefer that. I
just want it to be a great

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restaurant. And it's...I'd just
be seen as a chef who cooks good

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food.

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Lucy Dearlove: The restaurant
isn't open, but there are chefs

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busting away behind the counter
getting ready for service that

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evening. And whilst Selin and I
are talking, she has half an eye

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on proceedings; profusely
apologizing before getting up to

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talk the chefs through something
or pull a dish out of the oven.

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Selin Kiazim: When people ask me
what my favourite dish is like,

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from the menu and stuff, I...or
in general probably in life...I

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always say I probably couldn't
pick one! But if I had to, it

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would probably be the lahmacun
and because it's like it's got,

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you know, crispy bread. It's got
lamb, which I love, and it's got

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acid, then the salad. I love
that. And it's like everything.

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It's like a perfect mouthful,
right? So I could eat those all

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day, every day.

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The question I asked myself is,
you know, what is it...what

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makes a really great plate of
food? What makes it like so

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delicious that you, you can't
help but keep going back to it?

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And in my head when I think
about the dishes that I really

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love and the things I'm like,
ooh, can't get enough of that

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that suit my taste buds, the
three fundamental things are

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acid, texture and contrast.

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Lucy Dearlove: This holy trinity
is the subtitle of Selin's

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latest book, Three: acid,
texture, and contrast.

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Selin Kiazim: I think the most
basic one is bringing acid with

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rich things. So if you
think...any sort of fat, butter,

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creaminess, things like
that...for me, and I think for

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for most chefs as well and kind
of like more advanced cooks,

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it's like ingrained in you to
think that needs acid. But a

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home cook won't necessarily
think of that. So that's a part

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of the...trying to teach people
that at the beginning of the

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book is like this is, this is
what's happening in your head

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and in your mouth. And why
they...and I think acid it gives

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it that when you put that in, it
always like makes your mouth

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water and makes you keep going
back for more

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Lucy Dearlove: And while acid in
Selin's cooking comes from all

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sorts of varied and maybe even
surprising sources: samphire,

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tomatoes, sauerkraut, she has a
special place in her heart and

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her kitchen for the lemon. "This
is my inheritance. Lemon is an

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unmissable part of the Cypriot
meal," she writes.

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Selin Kiazim: I love acid,
probably too much sometimes. But

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like, you know, I think that
stems from my mother's love of

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lemons in particular. And I
think that stems from the fact

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that she's born and brought up
in Cyprus, you know, and that's

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it's quite as quite a Cypriot
thing. But with kebabs which a

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lot of the time...you know,
families getting together,

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especially in the summer months,
but kind of all year round, get

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round on Sunday, and they will
have big spreads and whatever

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and there's always lemon wedges
on the, on the table. And so you

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see it here, here as well with
with Cypriots, I notice...it's

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not so much a thing from Turkey,
I've noticed is quite different,

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but it's quite, it's a very
Cypriot thing to have lemon

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wedges and you squeeze it,
whether it's your lamb shish or

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like lovely grilled, kind of
fatty sausages and things

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Lucy Dearlove: Like the wedges
of lemon serve to squeeze over

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the delicious kebabs, citrus
moves constantly and quietly

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through the veins of this
country. Not entirely

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uncelebrated. Apparently our
favourite cake as a nation is

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lemon drizzle. But it's rarely
the main attraction – instead a

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supporting actor. Not just a
friend to meat, it's found on

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this side of battered fish and
raw shellfish alike, whether in

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polystyrene or silver platters.
For the real elite citrus

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experience you can find it
dressed in a muslin jacket, to

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shelter those among us who would
never pick out their own pips.

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You can buy all manner of
contraptions to extract the

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juice from it. It's neatly
sliced into jewel-like wedges

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and stashed in perspex
containers behind bars, ready

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for action. A glass of ice ready
for gin and tonic or soda water

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looks naked without it. It's the
title of one of our most famous

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nursery rhymes.

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Selin Kiazim: People may not
necessarily realise it, but I

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think that really fresh acid
that comes from lemon, I think

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excites people's palates, and
they don't realize what it's

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doing to them, but perhaps it's
like hypnotising them and making

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them want more and more of it.

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Lucy: I don't think Selena is
exaggerating. I think we are

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hypnotised by it. To me, the
flavour of citrus feels

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irreplaceable in the exact
opposite to the way that many

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fruits and vegetables feel
interchangeable. The first time

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I really started to think about
citrus was a few years ago, when

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I went to a talk on
sustainability in restaurants

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with the chef Marie Mitchell.
Someone who works in the

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sustainable drinks field talked
about how their bar, which

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operated with a closed loop
approach, was at odds with how

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many cocktail bars function – in
two areas in particular: ice and

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fresh fruit. He talked about
how, instead of turning to

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citrus as the go to sour element
in many of their drinks, they

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experimented with sour
ingredients which could be grown

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easily in this country and then
juiced or otherwise processed

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and preserved to reduce waste,
like rhubarb.

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I guess appropriately for a
closed loop philosophy there's

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an unexpected slightly pleasing
circularity here. In Dorothy

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Hartley's Food In England, she
notes that before citrus was

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widely available, sour notes in
English food were delivered by

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verjuice produced from native
crab apples, or barberries, or

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gooseberries, which weren't
native but arrived in England in

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the 1530s and grew abundantly
here. It was only in the 19th

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century, she said, when a
squeeze of lemon fully replaced

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verjuice in many dishes.

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For some reason, I held a
misconception for years that our

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citrus consumption in this
country with a very modern

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addiction, like avocados, or
even bananas. And it's true that

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they are now more widely and
cheaply available than any other

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point in history. But the
English obsession with citrus

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fruit goes back a lot further
than you might think. Just as

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Selin describes how citrus
perfectly cuts through fatty

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meat, English cooking from the
1600s onwards was pairing lemon

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when available with dishes like
Hen of the Wake, boiling fowl,

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ragout of pig's ears and jugged
hare. Margaret Visser in her

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book Much Depends on Dinner,
describes how first citrus

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sweets called Succade arrived in
England from Spain and Portugal

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not long after the Crusaders had
first tasted the fruit in the

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Holy Land at the end of the 12th
century. And a century after

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that the fruit itself was also
to be found being transported

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northwards. As Kate Colquhoun
discusses in her book taste, by

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1534, Henry VIII's household was
using enough citrus in his

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cooking to warrant buying an
orange strainer. This could be

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attributed perhaps to his first
wife Katherine of Aragon's

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background: the use of sour
Seville orange juice in red meat

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stews and pies and pairing fish
and poultry with lemons. But the

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Elizabethan era saw a rise in
cookbooks printed for

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householders, not professional
cooks, and it was clear from

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these that citrus had firmly
entered the consciousness of

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English cookery. Greater
quantities were imported during

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this era, and prices started to
decrease slightly. The historian

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Dr. John Gallagher points me in
the direction of Giacomo

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Castelvetro, who he describes as
a 16th century Italian refugee

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who spent a significant amount
of time in England.

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Castelvetro's book The Fruits,
Herbs and Vegetables of Italy,

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which was reissued in the late
80s with a foreword from Jane

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Grigson, was written as a
reaction to his horror about how

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few vegetables English people
ate. Hoping to encourage the

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English to consume and grow more
fruits and vegetables, in the

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book he lists seasonal varieties
from Italy, along with

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preparation and cooking
suggestions. Many of them

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include a dressing made from
salt and pepper, olive oil, and

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bitter orange juice.

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Lucy Dearlove: I wonder how he
would have felt about bitter

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oranges being absorbed into the
historical canon of English

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food, but not primarily as a
dressing for homegrown seasonal

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vegetables. As Helena Attlee
recounts the story in her

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beautiful book about citrus
cultivation in Italy, The Land

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Where Lemons Grow, at the
beginning of the 18th century

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stormy weather forced a Spanish
ship laden with Sevilles to take

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shelter in the harbor at Dundee,
James Keiller, a local grocer,

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bought the cargo at a very low
price only to discover that the

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oranges were sour, not sweet and
he was unable to sell them

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whole. His mother Janet had the
idea of substituting oranges for

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the quinces, she usually used to
make marmalade because

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traditionally, marmalade was
made with quinces. The orange

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marmalade proved so popular with
customers of their shop that

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Janet began to make it every
year. And by 1797, the demand

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was so great that the family
opened a marmalade factory in

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Dundee.

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The word zest, which we now
interchangeably use in English

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as a noun or verb referring to
the outer fragrant skin of the

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citrus and removing it
respectively and also as a

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descriptor of someone's
enthusiasm for life has been in

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usage since 1670s France. First
used to refer to skin or peel,

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generally, and then later, more
specifically to the skin of

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citrus fruits, which could add
flavour. As early as the 1790s

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an understanding of keen
enjoyment was attributed to its

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meaning.

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Selin Kiazim: But I think I find
lemon...well, and all citrus,

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actually, but they're really,
they're such interesting fruits,

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because the juice is so
different from the zest, I find.

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And I actually like, I use lemon
zest in some things, but rarely,

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because I find it...I can...I
find it like too dominating

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sometimes in certain things. And
I think, I think there's a real

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subtlety to how you need to, to
use it.

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Lucy Dearlove: So interesting.
Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

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Selin Kiazim: There is right?
Because especially in thing...

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like with a lemon tart, right,
some people  arelike they're

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absolute avid...bow down to the
lemon tart kind of thing. And

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there's very few that I've ever
had that I'm like, oh, that's,

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that's really delicious. And I
can finish it, but I just find

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it...which is strange, because I
love lemons, but then I'm like

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this...with that amount of sugar
and stuff that goes into it. I

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don't know, it just does
something weird with my palate

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that makes me go, ooooh I can't
I can't eat too much of that.

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And so often here, I don't know,
there's been a dressing or

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something that we make, and I'll
be like, oh put, you know,

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squeeze one or two lemons into
it and they'll be like, zest

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too? Almost every time like
every chef will say to me, zest

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too? And I'd be like, No. And
they're always like, why? And

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I'm like...they're like it's
gonna make it more lemony. And

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I'm like, Yeah, but in the wrong
way. There's a difference.

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Lucy: Wrong kind of lemony.

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Selin Kiazim: Wrong kind of
lemony, yeah

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Nina Mingya Powles: So I wanted
to write about peeling, and

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about skin. I always do find
myself writing about food even

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if the overall project isn't
necessarily food focused.

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Lucy Dearlove: Nina Mingya
Powles is a writer, editor and

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publisher, who was born in
Aotearoa New Zealand, partly

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grew up in China, and now lives
in London. Her book Small Bodies

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of Water was published last
year. It's a lyrical,

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atmospheric collection of
essays, which see Nina submerged

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in different bodies of water all
around the world, exploring

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themes of movement, migration
and transformation.

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Nina Mingya Powles: think about
fruit, I think. And the

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connections that fruit brings me
in particular, like I think I

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really associate mandarins with
my mum. I think I don't really

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know anyone else who eats many
mandarins. I do except my mom.

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Lucy Dearlove: So tell me about
your relationship with citrus.

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00:14:22,630 --> 00:14:27,730
Nina Mingya Powles: So I'm
obsessed with fruit. And I can

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00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:32,410
like...like if my body could I
could probably almost like

220
00:14:32,410 --> 00:14:37,720
survive on fruit if my body
would let me and I think

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00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:43,180
particularly at this time of
year, I'm like, living off

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00:14:43,510 --> 00:14:51,250
mandarins specifically. And I
think I always have...so I grew

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00:14:51,250 --> 00:14:57,070
up in New Zealand and in winter
time, so June, July...those

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00:14:59,770 --> 00:15:04,900
like...mandarins are in such
abundance. And then I think as I

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00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:13,660
got older, I became more aware
of mandarins and also pomelo

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00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:18,040
being like really, really
culturally significant,

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00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:22,960
especially at New Year's,
Chinese New Year time. And like

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00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,330
when you visit a temple, or if
you see like a family shrine at

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00:15:28,330 --> 00:15:35,680
home, there's usually like a
bowl of mandarins. And I didn't

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00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:42,460
grow up with that element of
like...the spiritual element of

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00:15:42,490 --> 00:15:47,920
Chinese culture really at all.
But they...kind of generally

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00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:53,590
they symbolize good fortune,
prosperity, particularly at New

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00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:59,830
Year, and then also they're
like, offerings that you would

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00:15:59,830 --> 00:16:02,560
give. So I really like that as
well.

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00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:08,810
Lucy: And so, now that you're
living in London, which is a

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00:16:08,810 --> 00:16:12,200
city where you're not from, that
you didn't grow up, do you feel

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00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,010
like there's a sense...you know,
does it, does it make you

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00:16:16,010 --> 00:16:19,250
homesick? Or is there a kind of
like, do you eat them to be

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00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:20,810
comforted and reminded of home?

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00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,800
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah,
definitely. I think I do. I

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00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,010
think it's, yeah, I think it's
taken a while for me to find,

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00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,930
like my favorite London
mandarins, but I think I think I

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00:16:32,930 --> 00:16:35,450
find them at corner shops,
especially like Spanish

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00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:39,140
clementines, and they usually
have the leaves attached. Oh my

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00:16:39,140 --> 00:16:39,740
gosh,

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00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,430
Lucy: we've just we've just come
across like, a crate of pomelo.

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00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,820
At this point, Nina and I had
just rounded the corner from

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00:16:46,820 --> 00:16:49,430
Lisle Street into Gerrard
Street, the main bit of London's

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00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:53,900
Chinatown. It was late January,
right before Lunar New Year, and

250
00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:57,020
the streets were packed with
people, lanterns and piles of

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00:16:57,020 --> 00:17:01,010
citrus in crates. Nina suggested
this location for our

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00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:05,810
conversation, and it felt wildly
appropriate for two reasons. The

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00:17:05,810 --> 00:17:09,200
first being of course, that
citrus fruit came from China in

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00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,190
the first place.

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00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:15,490
As John McPhee notes in his book
Oranges, the first known

256
00:17:15,490 --> 00:17:18,550
reference to this fruit occurs
in the second book of the Five

257
00:17:18,550 --> 00:17:22,930
Classics, which appeared in
China around 500 BC, and is

258
00:17:22,930 --> 00:17:27,190
generally regarded as having
been edited by Confucius. He

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00:17:27,190 --> 00:17:30,280
describes the fruit's journey
over many 1000s of miles and

260
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,510
years, from its origins near the
South China Sea, down into the

261
00:17:34,510 --> 00:17:38,890
Malay Archipelago, and then on
4000 miles of ocean currents to

262
00:17:38,890 --> 00:17:42,700
the east coast of Africa, along
the desert by caravan and into

263
00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:45,970
the Mediterranean basin, and
then over the Atlantic to the

264
00:17:45,970 --> 00:17:50,110
American continents. It
sometimes exactly kept pace with

265
00:17:50,110 --> 00:17:52,780
the major journeys of
civilisation, he writes.

266
00:17:55,150 --> 00:17:57,820
While there are now many
hundreds of varieties of fruit,

267
00:17:58,420 --> 00:18:01,630
there are three ancestral
species in the genus citrus

268
00:18:01,690 --> 00:18:06,100
associated with modern citrus
cultivars: mandarin orange,

269
00:18:06,130 --> 00:18:10,270
pomelo, and Citron. All are
still familiar to us by these

270
00:18:10,270 --> 00:18:14,770
names today. I have only ever
once eaten citron, at a supper

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00:18:14,770 --> 00:18:17,830
club by the chef and writer Thom
Eagle, where it was served

272
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:21,490
thinly sliced and salted. And
where another guest delightfully

273
00:18:21,490 --> 00:18:24,820
referred to it as a 'fatty
lemon' on account of its thick

274
00:18:24,820 --> 00:18:30,040
white rind. I must have eaten
1000s of mandarin oranges over

275
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,150
the years, despite the fact that
as Helena Attlee notes, they

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00:18:34,150 --> 00:18:36,820
were the last member of the
citrus genus to reach Europe.

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00:18:39,550 --> 00:18:42,220
And this is going to be my first
time eating a pomelo.

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00:18:44,620 --> 00:18:46,570
Nina Mingya Powles: So these
ones say red pomelo.

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00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:50,080
Lucy Dearlove: Is that the same
as honey?

280
00:18:50,260 --> 00:18:54,190
Nina Mingya Powles: Well these
ones obviously will be pink

281
00:18:54,190 --> 00:18:57,520
inside, maybe the honey
one's....will not be pink

282
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,250
inside, I'm not sure...I think
we should buy a red one.

283
00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:02,140
Lucy: Okay, yeah, pink flesh...

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00:19:03,910 --> 00:19:09,760
Nina Mingya Powles: Pink class
one! Shall we get one of these?

285
00:19:09,790 --> 00:19:10,630
Lucy: Yeah.

286
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,910
Nina Mingya Powles: I'm kind of
squeezing it but I don't

287
00:19:15,910 --> 00:19:16,270
really...

288
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,120
Lucy: It's kind of hard because
it's so like wrapped in plastic.

289
00:19:19,690 --> 00:19:21,070
You've got the kind of layer of
plastic and then...

290
00:19:21,070 --> 00:19:22,870
Nina Mingya Powles: I like that
this one's not giant. Some of

291
00:19:22,870 --> 00:19:23,890
them are really giant.

292
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,680
Lucy: Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna get
one of these as well.

293
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:30,370
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah. So
that's a pretty good price for a

294
00:19:30,370 --> 00:19:32,380
pomelo, I would say, in London

295
00:19:41,150 --> 00:19:41,780
Lucy: Okay, cool.

296
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:46,640
In Small Bodies of Water. Nina
describes buying honey pomelos

297
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,250
from a fruit shop while she was
a student in Shanghai

298
00:19:49,250 --> 00:19:52,550
Nina Mingya Powles: Oh shall we
get any mandarins as well?

299
00:19:52,550 --> 00:19:55,430
Lucy: Oh yeah, we could get like
a little bag.

300
00:19:56,510 --> 00:19:59,480
The man in the shop expertly
cuts the skin and the pith away

301
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,780
from the flesh and the fruit
skin rips noisily away from the

302
00:20:02,780 --> 00:20:03,470
membrane.

303
00:20:04,370 --> 00:20:06,530
Are they...? They look good.

304
00:20:06,530 --> 00:20:12,020
"It's a violent, tender
process," Nina writes. As such

305
00:20:12,050 --> 00:20:15,290
we decide not to eat our pomelos
there and then, saving them for

306
00:20:15,290 --> 00:20:18,260
later when we both have access
to a sharp knife and somewhere

307
00:20:18,260 --> 00:20:19,310
we can make a mess.

308
00:20:20,780 --> 00:20:22,340
Automated checkout: 'Cashier
number 4 please'

309
00:20:25,550 --> 00:20:26,690
Lucy: Do you want to put one in
your bag?

310
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:27,050
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah.

311
00:20:41,390 --> 00:20:44,720
Lucy: Okay, should we go and eat
a mandarin?

312
00:20:44,750 --> 00:20:45,650
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah,
definitely.

313
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:53,160
I personally would just
like...when I get home, I'll

314
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,800
probably sort of take the peel
off by like making a cut and

315
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,380
then just ripping the skin off
with my hands because it

316
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,220
does....I think if it's ripe
enough, it will just come away.

317
00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:09,270
It's very satisfying. And then
like, it's got these massive

318
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:14,370
segments. And I'll just, yeah,
with my hands I'll just pull

319
00:21:14,370 --> 00:21:19,530
them apart, but then maybe put
like, like, a quarter of pomelo

320
00:21:19,530 --> 00:21:22,230
in like a little bowl and just
eating it with my hands. But you

321
00:21:22,230 --> 00:21:26,520
do end up probably, yeah, like
sucking some of the...vessicles?

322
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,190
I think that's what they're...
Like..

323
00:21:29,220 --> 00:21:29,820
Lucy: Great word!

324
00:21:29,820 --> 00:21:33,330
Nina Mingya Powles: The inside
of the...yeah, the fruitiest

325
00:21:33,330 --> 00:21:33,660
bit.

326
00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:34,590
Lucy: Okay.

327
00:21:34,590 --> 00:21:37,020
Nina Mingya Powles: The flesh, I
guess maybe? I think the

328
00:21:37,260 --> 00:21:38,820
individual...because you know...

329
00:21:38,850 --> 00:21:41,820
Lucy: Yeah, they're like little
pellets? They're called

330
00:21:41,820 --> 00:21:41,850
vessicles?

331
00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:44,340
Nina Mingya Powles: Vessicles,
yeah, that might be like a

332
00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:45,450
medical word as well.

333
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,330
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine
like a blood vessel or

334
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,520
something...Oh, that's great.

335
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,100
Nina Mingya Powles: Very
like...in a pomelo. they're very

336
00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:52,460
solid

337
00:21:52,460 --> 00:21:53,000
Lucy: Very pronounced

338
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,040
Nina Mingya Powles: There's not
this like juice happening.

339
00:21:55,220 --> 00:21:57,920
Lucy: Because I feel like in a
bad orange...they're often

340
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,510
pronounced and quite dry.

341
00:21:59,540 --> 00:22:02,630
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah.
Pomelos, actually, when you open

342
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:07,610
it, it might seem like it's
going to be dry. But then when

343
00:22:07,610 --> 00:22:09,230
you bite into a chunk of
vessicles....!

344
00:22:10,850 --> 00:22:13,760
Lucy: It's not very appealing
word. It's a good word, but...

345
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,440
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah, then
it can be quite...it'll be

346
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,100
really juicy.

347
00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:18,380
Lucy: Okay. It's just that
they've got a lot of structural

348
00:22:18,380 --> 00:22:19,160
integrity.

349
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,590
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah. But I
actually don't really know how

350
00:22:21,620 --> 00:22:24,320
other people eat pomelo. That's
not a thing that I've really

351
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,760
eating, like, communally. I
would always kind of do what we

352
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,920
just did, like buy one at a shop
and then take it home and eat it

353
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:38,810
on my own, that's what I still
do. But I did read that the skin

354
00:22:38,810 --> 00:22:42,770
I think is sometimes used, like
in Cantonese cooking. They will

355
00:22:42,770 --> 00:22:46,580
like cook it, like braise it,
which is really interesting. Not

356
00:22:46,580 --> 00:22:51,020
so much the flesh. But I feel
like surely also the flesh might

357
00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:54,710
be used. But I've never had it.

358
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:59,900
Lucy: And would you eat the
skin?

359
00:23:00,290 --> 00:23:01,400
Nina Mingya Powles: I personally
wouldn't, but...

360
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,410
Lucy: Yeah. Cos I feel like if
you're gonna braise that it's

361
00:23:03,410 --> 00:23:03,770
still gonna be...

362
00:23:03,770 --> 00:23:04,280
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah, I
don't know,

363
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,060
Lucy: I guess it would just give
a lot of flavour to the dish

364
00:23:08,060 --> 00:23:12,830
Nina Mingya Powles: So I
read...quite often, when I'm

365
00:23:12,830 --> 00:23:17,960
like, searching for like,
customs about Chinese festivals

366
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,770
or something, I found, I find
myself on these really annoying

367
00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:25,580
websites, they're like China
travel guide.com. And they're

368
00:23:25,580 --> 00:23:29,300
like, quite badly written and
they're like, aimed at...I'm

369
00:23:30,410 --> 00:23:33,710
guessing like tourists or people
who want to like live in China

370
00:23:33,710 --> 00:23:36,380
or something. But these are the
ones that come up when you like,

371
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,640
like they're the top like Google
hits. Very often like trying to

372
00:23:40,670 --> 00:23:47,030
corraborate, corroborate, sorry,
these these really annoying

373
00:23:47,030 --> 00:23:50,810
website pages that will have
like, symbolism of Chinese

374
00:23:50,810 --> 00:23:51,590
fruits kind of thing.

375
00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:53,870
Lucy: And you're trying to like,
read between the lines,

376
00:23:54,050 --> 00:23:57,260
Nina Mingya Powles: Exactly, and
like read deeper and figure out

377
00:23:57,260 --> 00:24:02,600
some context like, because it's
not written. I don't I guess I'm

378
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,130
kind of guessing it's written
for...not someone like me.

379
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,460
Lucy: Yeah, it is like a tourist
thing. So it's quite a base

380
00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:11,060
level understanding.

381
00:24:11,060 --> 00:24:12,560
Nina Mingya Powles: But that is
where I end up quite often

382
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,020
finding answers to these
questions. But it was on a

383
00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:18,530
website like that, where I read
something about pamelo being

384
00:24:18,530 --> 00:24:22,790
cooked, or parts of pomelo being
cooked, particularly for good

385
00:24:22,790 --> 00:24:27,260
luck around Chinese New Year. So
don't know if that's true, but

386
00:24:27,260 --> 00:24:30,980
according to a travel
website...potentially it's true.

387
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:36,240
Lucy: The second reason why it's
appropriate for Nina and I to be

388
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,840
walking the streets of central
London looking for citrus, is

389
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,430
that there's a historical
precedent for this too. The

390
00:24:44,430 --> 00:24:48,270
things I read about the history
of citrus in royal courts of the

391
00:24:48,270 --> 00:24:52,320
16th, 17th and 18th centuries,
made it seem like it was

392
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,010
reserved mostly for the elite,
even when the prices did start

393
00:24:56,010 --> 00:25:01,020
to decrease. But the historian
Dr. Charlie Taverner, whose work

394
00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:03,900
centered around street food
particularly during the 17th and

395
00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:08,670
18th centuries, sets me
straight. Citrus was sold by

396
00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:12,180
street sellers in London in
numbers that are mind boggling

397
00:25:12,180 --> 00:25:20,790
to me. In 1662-63, almost
750,000 oranges and lemons were

398
00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:24,060
shipped in from Spain, and two
and a half million from

399
00:25:24,060 --> 00:25:30,210
Portugal. By the end of the 17th
century, those figures had risen

400
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:37,140
to 4 million and 7 million
respectively. Charlie's thesis

401
00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:39,870
Selling food in the streets also
explains potential

402
00:25:39,870 --> 00:25:43,470
misconceptions about how much
citrus was being consumed and by

403
00:25:43,470 --> 00:25:48,630
whom. He describes how in the
1630s the author James Hart

404
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:53,340
suggested that oranges were
mostly cooking ingredients. Hart

405
00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:57,000
liked sour varieties but found
sweet ones had no purpose.

406
00:25:57,660 --> 00:26:01,110
However, as Charlie continues,
this is not how oranges come

407
00:26:01,110 --> 00:26:05,040
across in evidence of street
vending. Across London they were

408
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,120
sold from barrows and in
playhouses as sweet snacks. The

409
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,910
taste for sweeter oranges may
have developed over the 17th

410
00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:16,860
century as greater volumes
arrived. In 1700, he writes,

411
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:20,970
John Houghton, an apothecary and
writer, estimated that London

412
00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:24,300
consumed a quarter of all
oranges shipped into England.

413
00:26:25,650 --> 00:26:28,920
"Citrus fruits were carried in
the eye of all about the

414
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,010
streets, where they were very
much consumed by ordinary

415
00:26:32,010 --> 00:26:38,610
people." Perhaps how fruit was
bought, he writes, offten a

416
00:26:38,610 --> 00:26:42,450
small streetside parcels,
explains why this has been

417
00:26:42,450 --> 00:26:43,290
concealed.

418
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:50,500
I've found that there's a sort
of mythology about the history

419
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:54,790
of citrus in London. The
discovery of vitamin C as a

420
00:26:54,790 --> 00:26:58,600
scurvy cure, and the subsequent
adoption of first lemon and then

421
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,170
limes as an integral part of the
British Navy's vittles is well

422
00:27:02,170 --> 00:27:06,340
documented. Several sources cite
this as a reason for the naming

423
00:27:06,370 --> 00:27:09,970
of Limehouse, the point on the
Thames where cargo was unloaded

424
00:27:09,970 --> 00:27:13,060
from ocean-going ships and set
on its way on the London canal

425
00:27:13,060 --> 00:27:18,520
system. But other sources I read
debunk this, describing the lime

426
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,780
kilns built there as the actual
reason. The nursery rhyme

427
00:27:22,780 --> 00:27:25,510
Oranges and Lemons are said to
have originated as a result of

428
00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:29,050
the location of St. Clements
Danes Church on the Strand where

429
00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:32,980
citrus was apparently first
unloaded. But Dr. Charlie

430
00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:36,100
Taverner's work describes
Billingsgate - the old site near

431
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,190
London Bridge, not the newer
market - which lies much further

432
00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:42,640
east than St. Clements as the
main arrival site for imported

433
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:43,300
fruit.

434
00:27:47,170 --> 00:27:50,860
One of the fundamental questions
I wanted but felt unable to

435
00:27:50,860 --> 00:27:55,420
answer while making this episode
was why we - people living in a

436
00:27:55,420 --> 00:27:58,600
country with a climate that
can't meaningfully sustain

437
00:27:58,630 --> 00:28:03,010
citrus cultivation at the scale
we need - are so obsessed with

438
00:28:03,010 --> 00:28:06,400
lemons, oranges, limes,
grapefruits and many other

439
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,990
citrus fruits. It feels so
ingrained in our food, our

440
00:28:10,990 --> 00:28:15,130
culture, our art even, and I
can't help feeling that there's

441
00:28:15,130 --> 00:28:18,760
something about living in a dark
cold country that leads us to

442
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:24,130
dream of bright yellow, orange
and green. "Do you know the land

443
00:28:24,130 --> 00:28:27,340
where lemons grow?" is actually
a translated line from Goethe's

444
00:28:27,340 --> 00:28:31,990
poem, Mignon. It continues: "In
darkened leaves the gold oranges

445
00:28:31,990 --> 00:28:37,930
glow, a soft wind blows from the
pure blue sky". Helena Attlee

446
00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:40,510
also wrote about the other
travellers from Northern Europe

447
00:28:40,510 --> 00:28:43,240
who have been historically
thrilled by the sight of Italian

448
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,110
citrus trees, Hans Christian
Andersen and DH Lawrence to name

449
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:53,170
but two. You think they would be
less surprise from Northern

450
00:28:53,170 --> 00:28:56,230
Europeans nowadays, but I can
vouch for my own excessive

451
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:59,140
excitement when a holiday let in
Cyprus turned out to have its

452
00:28:59,140 --> 00:29:00,940
own lemon tree ready for
picking.

453
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,850
In Small Bodies of Water, the
essay Unpeel reflects on the

454
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,720
outer and inner layers of fruit,
but also ourselves.

455
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,170
Nina Mingya Powles: I think also
of peeling fruit as a

456
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:31,930
very...like a symbol of
affection, which I think is

457
00:29:31,930 --> 00:29:35,830
really common across some
different cultures. Like not

458
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:44,620
just Chinese or East Asian. But
yeah, fruit is very often given

459
00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:49,090
as a gift, which is really
lovely. I noticed that when I

460
00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:53,590
lived in Shanghai, fruit would
often be given as a gift,

461
00:29:53,620 --> 00:29:56,230
particularly at the New Year.
Yeah, I wanted to write about

462
00:29:57,010 --> 00:30:04,630
the skin of the fruit and the
act of peeling...and yeah, the

463
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:08,320
symbolism around that. And the
memories.

464
00:30:08,350 --> 00:30:10,450
Lucy: Yeah, it feels like
there's so much care inherent in

465
00:30:10,450 --> 00:30:13,090
that act because it's like a
quite painstaking thing.

466
00:30:13,270 --> 00:30:13,810
Nina Mingya Powles: Exactly.

467
00:30:13,810 --> 00:30:16,570
Lucy: And you write in the
chapter Unpeel about like,

468
00:30:16,750 --> 00:30:20,500
peeling the pith off segments
for a friend like, you know,

469
00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:22,630
it's just the so...it's so
painstaking. And like, there's

470
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:25,510
so much effort that goes into it
like, it's just a really

471
00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:26,740
beautiful gesture of affection.

472
00:30:26,740 --> 00:30:29,620
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah,
actually that particular type of

473
00:30:29,620 --> 00:30:33,910
mandarin that I think reminds me
of being a teenager, like

474
00:30:33,940 --> 00:30:37,030
midwinter, they'd be quite
small, and you'd be able to peel

475
00:30:37,030 --> 00:30:40,750
them really easily. So, when you
pick them up, they'd be cold.

476
00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:44,830
And you could feel like
the...like, if you squish them,

477
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,970
not too hard, but then you could
kind of feel a gap between the

478
00:30:49,990 --> 00:30:52,960
actual fruit and the skin. So
you could get your thumb under

479
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,510
it really easily. And so we'd
eat those, like at morning tea

480
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,010
at school, and yeah, and I had a
friend who, like, wouldn't want

481
00:31:00,010 --> 00:31:03,760
to eat the little white strands.
I guess when you're a teenager,

482
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:09,190
you have these weird things. And
yeah, I remember like, removing

483
00:31:09,190 --> 00:31:13,030
those and we'd like share a
mandarin, which is very sweet.

484
00:31:14,140 --> 00:31:14,770
Lucy Dearlove: Very sweet.

485
00:31:20,530 --> 00:31:23,800
Lucy: Obviously, Small Bodies of
Water is about...in part about

486
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:30,820
swimming and being in water. Do
you think...in a sense, a citrus

487
00:31:30,820 --> 00:31:32,080
fruit is a small body of water?

488
00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:35,800
Nina Mingya Powles: Yes! And
I...you've reminded me that...I

489
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:42,460
think I was like, I wasn't
thinking that at first. But then

490
00:31:42,610 --> 00:31:45,130
it made, yeah, it makes so much
sense because they actually are

491
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,250
Lucy: Because they're contained
and like unlike other pieces of

492
00:31:47,670 --> 00:31:47,850
fruit...

493
00:31:48,060 --> 00:31:48,780
Nina Mingya Powles: They're just
water!

494
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,630
Lucy: Okay, I'm glad you said
this because I was like, am I

495
00:31:51,630 --> 00:31:52,560
reaching here?

496
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,650
Nina Mingya Powles: No! I really
wanted...like I didn't know how

497
00:31:55,650 --> 00:31:59,490
it would work. But I was hoping
that there could be like, a

498
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,060
pomelo or a citrus on the cover,
cos it's like...that's a small

499
00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:05,250
body of water. It's fine,
though. I really love how the

500
00:32:05,250 --> 00:32:05,670
cover came out.

501
00:32:05,670 --> 00:32:06,480
Lucy: The cover does look great.

502
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,970
Nina Mingya Powles: It's
okay...but next book, maybe

503
00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:11,250
should have like an orange on
the cover.

504
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:11,760
Lucy: Yes.

505
00:32:11,790 --> 00:32:13,800
Nina Mingya Powles: Or
something? I think. Yeah. But

506
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,000
they did end up doing beautiful
little illustrations. And yeah,

507
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,510
the illustrator drew a pomelo.
Which is really lovely. So there

508
00:32:21,510 --> 00:32:24,330
is a pomelo. But yes, exactly.

509
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,000
Lucy: Yeah. There isn't really
any other fruit. Because you

510
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000
were talking about like the
contain the containment of it.

511
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,700
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah,
there's something fleshy

512
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,450
particularly about them. I
guess. Lots of fruit you have

513
00:32:39,450 --> 00:32:44,640
that. But the softness. The way
there's like different layers of

514
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:56,130
skin. And the texture of like,
orange and mandarin skin is

515
00:32:56,130 --> 00:32:59,460
sometimes a bit reminiscent of
our skin.

516
00:33:00,230 --> 00:33:04,070
Lucy: Yeah. I mean, like, even
just the look of it like yeah,

517
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,660
it's almost got pores.

518
00:33:05,870 --> 00:33:09,110
Nina Mingya Powles: Yeah. Like,
this is a bit weird. But it's

519
00:33:09,140 --> 00:33:12,650
just reminded me...so I'm
allergic to nuts. So I carry an

520
00:33:12,650 --> 00:33:16,850
EpiPen. And when I was a kid, I
remember like me and my mom and

521
00:33:16,850 --> 00:33:20,690
dad practicing on oranges with
the EpiPen

522
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,610
Lucy: Yeah that's what they say
you should do! Oh my god. Yeah,

523
00:33:25,610 --> 00:33:27,740
cuz it's the closest thing like
texturally...

524
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:29,720
Nina Mingya Powles: I
guess...they could be

525
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,080
quite....the skin could be quite
hard and thicker, but like

526
00:33:33,170 --> 00:33:35,600
some... yeah...but it's like
your thigh!

527
00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:39,290
Lucy: Yeah. And because it
is...you're like entering like a

528
00:33:39,290 --> 00:33:42,740
barrier and then there's like
something wet...no that's weird.

529
00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:43,100
Nina Mingya Powles: Muscular!

530
00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:49,280
Lucy: But sort of the same like
make up... yeah, we have more in

531
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,450
common with them than we think.

532
00:33:55,670 --> 00:33:59,210
Later that evening, when we're
both at home, Nina sends me a

533
00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:04,280
photo of her eating the fruit.
My pomelo is soooo red, she

534
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,210
says, I can't resist cutting
into mine straight away too,

535
00:34:08,720 --> 00:34:12,560
ripping the skin and the thick
pith away from the flesh. As

536
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,790
Nina described, the vessicles
are large and distinct. And

537
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:22,130
she's right, it does somehow
look dry. But as soon as I bite

538
00:34:22,130 --> 00:34:25,910
into a segment, it's the
juiciest, most delicious fruit.

539
00:34:40,940 --> 00:34:44,658
This episode of Lecker was
written produced and hosted by

540
00:34:44,724 --> 00:34:48,704
me, Lucy Dearlove. Thanks so
much to Selin and Nina for being

541
00:34:48,769 --> 00:34:52,879
a part of this episode. Three:
Acid, Texture, Contrast by Selin

542
00:34:52,945 --> 00:34:56,794
Kiazim, and Small Bodies of
Water by Nina Mingya Powles are

543
00:34:56,859 --> 00:35:00,839
both out now. And thanks also to
the long list of writers and

544
00:35:00,905 --> 00:35:05,015
academics whose work contributed
to this exploration of citrus.

545
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,060
I've listed a full bibliography
on the Lecker website because

546
00:35:09,125 --> 00:35:12,910
it's a fascinating topic. And
there's so many directions I

547
00:35:12,975 --> 00:35:16,955
could have gone, so many great
details I missed out because I

548
00:35:17,020 --> 00:35:20,804
just didn't have space. I read
so many brilliant books and

549
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:24,654
articles while making this
episode, so I really invite you

550
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,569
to check them out as well. If
you'd like to support Lecker,

551
00:35:28,634 --> 00:35:32,679
you can donate to the patreon
patreon.com/leckerpodcast. There

552
00:35:32,744 --> 00:35:36,594
are now monthly free newsletters
for Patreon followers, and

553
00:35:36,659 --> 00:35:40,574
monthly bonus podcast episodes
for paid Patreon subscribers.

554
00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:44,488
Other ways you can support
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555
00:35:44,554 --> 00:35:48,599
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556
00:35:48,664 --> 00:35:50,100
and tell your friends.

557
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:53,993
Ben McDonald creates original
illustrations for every episode

558
00:35:54,057 --> 00:35:58,079
of Lecker and they're beautiful.
You can see those on Instagram

559
00:35:58,143 --> 00:36:02,164
and Twitter @leckerpodcast and
I'm also posting sporadically on

560
00:36:02,228 --> 00:36:05,995
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I'm quite scared of Tiktok so

561
00:36:06,058 --> 00:36:09,889
come and join me. Music is by
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562
00:36:09,952 --> 00:36:13,400
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month. Thanks for listening