1 00:00:03,419 --> 00:00:06,299 Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a 2 00:00:06,299 --> 00:00:09,929 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,989 --> 00:00:14,339 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework. 4 00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:20,100 Colleen Verriest: Especially if now there's extra work at a 5 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:22,950 certain point in time, and we all live in workplaces where 6 00:00:22,980 --> 00:00:25,710 certain months are really crazy, or certain weeks are really 7 00:00:25,710 --> 00:00:29,760 crazy. And if we just take it all on, and we don't 8 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:33,720 compartmentalize and put certain things aside, then we're sort of 9 00:00:33,810 --> 00:00:36,960 ramping up to beyond, you know, towards that burnout place. 10 00:00:38,729 --> 00:00:41,279 Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, its Jason Baum, Director of Member 11 00:00:41,279 --> 00:00:45,299 experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps 12 00:00:45,299 --> 00:00:49,919 podcast. Welcome back. It's been a couple of weeks. I hope you 13 00:00:49,919 --> 00:00:55,469 enjoyed our rerun episodes that we had planned for you. You 14 00:00:55,469 --> 00:00:59,549 might remember from the last Live episode that we did, I was 15 00:00:59,549 --> 00:01:04,409 taking vacation. And I'm back now, obviously. But let me tell 16 00:01:04,409 --> 00:01:09,479 you just how wonderful it was to finally take an actual vacation. 17 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,729 It's the first one for my family since COVID. It was also the 18 00:01:14,729 --> 00:01:17,519 first one for me in nearly two years where I actually 19 00:01:17,549 --> 00:01:22,619 disconnected for a week. And by that I mean, no phone, no 20 00:01:22,619 --> 00:01:27,359 checking work, email, no work calls, no slack, nothing. I know 21 00:01:27,359 --> 00:01:32,339 shocking. It's it's hard to imagine these days. I found it 22 00:01:32,339 --> 00:01:36,059 to be incredibly rewarding, refreshing, and it allowed me to 23 00:01:36,059 --> 00:01:39,329 come back ready to take on whatever hurdles were coming my 24 00:01:39,329 --> 00:01:43,229 way. And as always seems to be the reality after vacation, 25 00:01:43,229 --> 00:01:47,759 those hurdles pretty much began immediately. I'm sharing all of 26 00:01:47,759 --> 00:01:52,829 this because today's episode is all about burnout. I don't think 27 00:01:52,829 --> 00:01:57,659 I need to go too in depth. To set this up for you. We've most 28 00:01:57,659 --> 00:02:00,569 likely all experienced burnout at some point in our careers or 29 00:02:00,569 --> 00:02:04,469 lives for that matter. In fact, a study by haystack analytics 30 00:02:04,679 --> 00:02:08,309 found that 81% of developers reported experiencing burnout 31 00:02:08,309 --> 00:02:12,119 due to the pandemic. When I looked into this deeper, I found 32 00:02:12,119 --> 00:02:15,959 out that the phrase to burnout was actually used by Shakespeare 33 00:02:15,989 --> 00:02:20,819 in the 1600s. In 2019, the World Health Organization define 34 00:02:20,819 --> 00:02:24,599 burnout as a syndrome conceptualized as resulting from 35 00:02:24,599 --> 00:02:28,529 chronic workplace stress that has not been successfully 36 00:02:28,529 --> 00:02:32,429 managed. So according to that definition, individuals 37 00:02:32,429 --> 00:02:36,059 suffering from burnout are said to experience feelings of 38 00:02:36,059 --> 00:02:39,959 exhaustion, increased mental distance d motivation, and 39 00:02:39,959 --> 00:02:45,599 cynicism in relations to one job. It also is important to 40 00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:50,009 know that burnout as defined by the WHO is caused solely by 41 00:02:50,009 --> 00:02:56,009 stressors at the workplace. In 1981, Lance Morell wrote an 42 00:02:56,009 --> 00:03:00,479 essay in time that was entitled the burnout of almost everyone. 43 00:03:01,289 --> 00:03:05,519 And that talks about burnout as the disease of the thwarted a 44 00:03:05,519 --> 00:03:10,349 frustration so profound, that it exhausts body and morale. 45 00:03:11,189 --> 00:03:15,599 Burnout in advanced states imposes a fatigue that seems at 46 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:22,379 the time, a close relative of death. So and that here with 47 00:03:22,379 --> 00:03:26,069 those powerful words, and introduce my guest for today, 48 00:03:26,339 --> 00:03:30,599 Colleen veriest. Colleen is the founder of Whole Heart healing, 49 00:03:30,809 --> 00:03:33,869 and has been nurturing change in individuals and organizations 50 00:03:33,869 --> 00:03:37,799 for nearly 20 years. As a licensed clinical social worker, 51 00:03:37,919 --> 00:03:41,849 and nonprofit leader. Coleen assumed several progressive 52 00:03:41,849 --> 00:03:44,309 leadership positions in the nonprofit sector in the 53 00:03:44,309 --> 00:03:48,239 nonprofit sector, starting as a clinical director and moving on 54 00:03:48,239 --> 00:03:51,809 to Vice President and then finally to CEO, Collins 55 00:03:51,809 --> 00:03:56,039 leadership is grounded in the question, what is possible. Her 56 00:03:56,039 --> 00:03:59,069 focus has always been supporting the growth of agencies and 57 00:03:59,069 --> 00:04:03,329 programs, but most importantly, the growth of people, those on 58 00:04:03,329 --> 00:04:07,529 her team and those served. She has found that leading with 59 00:04:07,529 --> 00:04:11,159 compassion, flexibility and fairness has brought success 60 00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:14,789 throughout her career. What matters most to Colleen is 61 00:04:14,789 --> 00:04:18,149 leading with the heart leading with intention and a good dose 62 00:04:18,149 --> 00:04:22,199 of vulnerability. Colleen is filled up by just being with her 63 00:04:22,199 --> 00:04:25,649 family. She loves attending sporting events, and traveling 64 00:04:25,649 --> 00:04:29,159 with her fiance and son, taking a run and connecting with her 65 00:04:29,159 --> 00:04:33,599 ever loving circle of friends and family. Colleen, welcome to 66 00:04:33,599 --> 00:04:34,889 the humans of DevOps. 67 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,260 Colleen Verriest: Thank you, Jason. Thank you for having me. 68 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,140 Absolutely. You've already defined burnouts Well, I've got 69 00:04:40,140 --> 00:04:40,950 nothing left to do. 70 00:04:42,930 --> 00:04:46,380 Jason Baum: I did my research but I'm, I'm not a professional 71 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,140 by any stretch of the imagination. Although at times 72 00:04:49,140 --> 00:04:53,940 on this podcast, it certainly feels that way. I do not pretend 73 00:04:53,940 --> 00:04:57,660 to be a professional. So I'm really excited to get into this. 74 00:04:57,690 --> 00:05:01,590 I've been waiting to do this episode. load, mainly because 75 00:05:02,010 --> 00:05:06,300 who hasn't had burnout? I mean, it's law, much like when we did 76 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:11,640 our imposter syndrome episode. I don't think that anybody, like 77 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:17,790 the stat was 87%. And as I said, with impostor syndrome, when it 78 00:05:17,790 --> 00:05:21,150 was something like 80% of people have experience, I think that 79 00:05:21,150 --> 00:05:25,650 that means 10 or 20% of people are lying. 80 00:05:26,580 --> 00:05:28,200 Colleen Verriest: Or you didn't talk to the right people, 81 00:05:28,230 --> 00:05:32,370 Jason Baum: or you didn't ask everyone. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So 82 00:05:32,370 --> 00:05:33,990 Coleen, are you ready to get human? 83 00:05:34,230 --> 00:05:36,540 Colleen Verriest: Yeah, absolutely. It's my favorite 84 00:05:36,540 --> 00:05:37,170 thing to do. 85 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:42,600 Jason Baum: Yeah, as as a, as a licensed clinical social worker, 86 00:05:42,630 --> 00:05:46,530 I'm pretty much sure that all you do is, is get human. 87 00:05:46,679 --> 00:05:49,019 Colleen Verriest: Yeah, one of the things I said actually, 88 00:05:49,019 --> 00:05:54,299 during the pandemic, to my team, in terms of the human services 89 00:05:54,299 --> 00:05:57,509 field is like, the reason most of us went into it is because we 90 00:05:57,509 --> 00:06:02,159 like humans. So when we couldn't be together, for those of us who 91 00:06:02,159 --> 00:06:05,369 really thrived in that kind of environment. That was really 92 00:06:05,369 --> 00:06:08,069 challenging. Yeah. So I like humans. I like connecting. And 93 00:06:08,069 --> 00:06:09,389 I'm happy to get human with you. 94 00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:13,500 Jason Baum: Awesome. I'm excited to do it. Yes, me too. And it is 95 00:06:13,500 --> 00:06:20,490 challenging, right? So I defined burnout from a few different 96 00:06:20,490 --> 00:06:23,550 people's perspectives. And I think that's the thing you could 97 00:06:23,550 --> 00:06:27,210 Google burnout, and you'll get a million different answers to it. 98 00:06:27,210 --> 00:06:31,110 So what's what's your definition of burnout, 99 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,459 Colleen Verriest: my sense of burnout, and I think you touched 100 00:06:35,459 --> 00:06:41,999 on core pieces to it. But from like, a nuanced perspective, I 101 00:06:41,999 --> 00:06:44,939 think for and again, you're right, I think most of us 102 00:06:44,969 --> 00:06:48,029 wholeheartedly have felt this a different point in our career, 103 00:06:48,029 --> 00:06:52,229 and even in our lives, you know, work is one place, but life is 104 00:06:52,679 --> 00:06:57,329 another, like life holistically. So, and certainly our personal 105 00:06:57,329 --> 00:07:00,599 lives can exacerbate the burnout, we feel we could talk a 106 00:07:00,599 --> 00:07:03,449 little bit more about that as well, in our time together 107 00:07:03,449 --> 00:07:08,939 today, but a big piece that I find is dread. You know, like 108 00:07:08,939 --> 00:07:15,389 having this sense of dread. When it comes to work, that Sunday 109 00:07:15,419 --> 00:07:21,299 evening bellyache, we get, you know, the that those 110 00:07:21,299 --> 00:07:26,039 butterflies, the heart palpitations, the dread, of 111 00:07:26,069 --> 00:07:31,769 going back to work. And that can be for a variety of reasons, but 112 00:07:31,769 --> 00:07:36,749 one reason could be burnout. You know, I think also just a sense 113 00:07:36,749 --> 00:07:42,599 of anxiety, worry, you know, can be a sign that something's 114 00:07:42,599 --> 00:07:48,029 amiss. A lack of excitement, or enthusiasm, feeling detached, 115 00:07:48,629 --> 00:07:54,149 you know, like, starting to feel like it feel as though I just 116 00:07:54,149 --> 00:07:57,569 don't care what's going on anymore, you know, I'm doing the 117 00:07:57,569 --> 00:08:02,609 best I can. But this is all I got. Overall, not being able to 118 00:08:02,609 --> 00:08:10,019 concentrate in the workplace, feeling an effective, that's a 119 00:08:10,019 --> 00:08:14,519 big piece of it as if, you know, what I'm doing is just not, I'm 120 00:08:14,519 --> 00:08:18,209 just not performing at the level that I'm accustomed to, and what 121 00:08:18,209 --> 00:08:22,529 I, how I would like to be performing, and not always 122 00:08:22,529 --> 00:08:26,249 feeling as though we know the answers as to why, you know, not 123 00:08:26,249 --> 00:08:30,629 being able to dig into that, and just a lack of satisfaction 124 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:36,329 overall. You know, those are some pieces that to me, but I 125 00:08:36,329 --> 00:08:41,159 would say that feeling of dread is a big piece that I've heard 126 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:48,659 from colleagues, you know, I've experienced myself. And it's 127 00:08:48,659 --> 00:08:51,869 really, the critical piece is paying attention to that, like 128 00:08:51,869 --> 00:08:55,199 listening to that inner voice. You know, 129 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,040 Jason Baum: it's interesting, and we did say, you know, in the 130 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:05,430 reason why I had that, that quote, from time from Lance 131 00:09:05,430 --> 00:09:10,950 Morrow, because I thought he said such he made it the imagery 132 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:16,710 that comes to your mind from his words. But he also went beyond 133 00:09:16,740 --> 00:09:22,110 just the workplace. He actually called out. Now this was also 134 00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:30,060 written in 1981. So he mentioned like, mothers and moms at home, 135 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:35,220 I would say right now, any parent, especially in pandemic, 136 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,720 there are elements of it, and I would just that just serve just 137 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,710 normal life, right? That's just that's just dealing with life in 138 00:09:43,710 --> 00:09:46,950 general can cause burnout. But the way you just put it with 139 00:09:46,950 --> 00:09:51,360 that that pit in your stomach on a site who has an eye, I mean, 140 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,480 that is such a calm, and not just for work. I think that goes 141 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,970 all the way I mean that can go all the way back to school and I 142 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,560 I know I felt it. 143 00:10:02,370 --> 00:10:04,740 Colleen Verriest: Yeah. Like I remember in college or grad 144 00:10:04,740 --> 00:10:08,610 school, or that break would end and oh my gosh, you know, yeah. 145 00:10:09,690 --> 00:10:12,660 Jason Baum: Right. Yes. Even though you have elements of fun 146 00:10:12,660 --> 00:10:15,690 and things that you'd like to do, there's still that that pit 147 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,160 in your stomach. Right that there's that. Ever, Hank, 148 00:10:20,190 --> 00:10:23,130 whatever it is that stressor that you're going to have to 149 00:10:23,130 --> 00:10:23,790 face. 150 00:10:23,970 --> 00:10:25,830 Colleen Verriest: And I think exhaustion, you know, that you 151 00:10:25,830 --> 00:10:30,150 mentioned that just exhaustion. Over, you know, your day could 152 00:10:30,150 --> 00:10:33,990 be a typical day, maybe nothing extra is involved with feeling 153 00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:38,040 white. You know, I think that's also something to pay attention 154 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,300 to. And just an overall sense of negativity. I mean, we will all 155 00:10:42,300 --> 00:10:46,590 experience team members, colleagues who kind of think 156 00:10:46,590 --> 00:10:50,220 more negatively than others. But when someone who typically isn't 157 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:58,290 oriented in that way, begins to comment in a more negative 158 00:10:58,290 --> 00:11:02,370 fashion have more sort of negative things to say about the 159 00:11:02,370 --> 00:11:06,120 work that's actually happening or the workplace or their 160 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,250 colleagues, then that's also a sign, you know, so I think it 161 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:15,960 can be a number of things, but I, you know, you're 100% correct 162 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:21,120 in, in alluding to life outside of work, and yeah, now it's just 163 00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:25,890 our teams, our organizations, corporate structures, you know, 164 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,820 they have parents who also have kids, and at any given point, 165 00:11:29,820 --> 00:11:32,220 there's a COVID outbreak in the daycare closes. 166 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:35,820 Jason Baum: Yeah, been there, okay. And I 167 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:38,670 Colleen Verriest: just had a, a team member that used to work 168 00:11:38,670 --> 00:11:42,240 with me telling me that, yeah, all of a sudden, someone, a baby 169 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,940 in the room got COVID, or they didn't have enough staff at the 170 00:11:44,940 --> 00:11:48,360 daycare, they shut it down, they shut that baby room down. So 171 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,930 what are parents supposed to do? So just that compounded stress 172 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,730 is really, you know, that's powerful, really powerful. 173 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,040 Jason Baum: If your listener, you know, I have shared it many 174 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,660 times, I constantly share about being a parent. I have a four 175 00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:09,750 year old daughter, she's lovely. She is in preschool. And I can 176 00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:13,920 tell you just in the pandemic a lot we we had her out of school, 177 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,900 and then we put her back in, you know, for it just got to a 178 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:22,710 point, right, where what's what's worse, being at home or 179 00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:25,770 going to, and, and just since being back, I mean, they've 180 00:12:25,830 --> 00:12:29,130 closed I don't know how many times too many to count. She has 181 00:12:29,130 --> 00:12:33,630 joined me on conference calls. I mean, it's there's only so much 182 00:12:33,630 --> 00:12:34,950 bluey they can watch. 183 00:12:35,970 --> 00:12:38,340 Colleen Verriest: So true. I would like to be watching blue 184 00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:42,900 instead of working. You know, it's true. It's true. Yeah, 185 00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:45,930 you're you're one, you know, you're not alone. That's the 186 00:12:45,930 --> 00:12:48,930 truth. I mean, I've been, I mean, I was held holding board 187 00:12:48,930 --> 00:12:53,070 meetings. And my son would come in and say goodnight in his 188 00:12:53,070 --> 00:12:55,680 pajamas. You know, so everybody got to know each other's 189 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:01,080 families and newlon in new and exciting ways, that's for sure. 190 00:13:01,290 --> 00:13:04,860 Jason Baum: Yeah, in some ways, I think it sort of made it less. 191 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,930 It wasn't, there was like, no shame to it or anything. It 192 00:13:09,930 --> 00:13:13,680 wasn't, yeah, not a taboo, like it would have been maybe early. 193 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,730 But yeah, it is, we're all on the same boat here. So it almost 194 00:13:17,730 --> 00:13:20,670 lessened it. So I don't know if it necessarily cause burnout, 195 00:13:20,670 --> 00:13:25,770 but the fact that you are on as a parent, and as whatever you 196 00:13:25,770 --> 00:13:28,080 are in your career, whether you're a developer or coder, 197 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,560 whatever it is, oh, my gosh, you have all this going on. 198 00:13:31,889 --> 00:13:33,509 Colleen Verriest: And you're not turning it off, and you make 199 00:13:33,749 --> 00:13:37,139 that whole work from home. And I think most people I speak to 200 00:13:37,139 --> 00:13:43,139 feel the same as that. Work was home, there was no separation. 201 00:13:43,349 --> 00:13:47,849 So you know, that same table you were eating at, is now your 202 00:13:47,849 --> 00:13:51,959 desk. You know, if you didn't have the workspace that, you 203 00:13:51,959 --> 00:13:54,869 know, that's the luxury to have workspace in your house, you 204 00:13:54,869 --> 00:14:00,929 know, so that really, I know, for myself, I had to be really 205 00:14:00,929 --> 00:14:05,009 careful about that. Because I could you know, and you have 206 00:14:05,009 --> 00:14:07,949 these phones that have your email on it, and you know, 207 00:14:08,819 --> 00:14:12,119 those, they're always there. You know, at one point when my son 208 00:14:12,119 --> 00:14:15,869 said, I want to throw that phone out the window. I want to break 209 00:14:15,869 --> 00:14:20,129 your phone. I was like, Okay, that's a sign. Yeah, that's 210 00:14:20,129 --> 00:14:25,619 enough. That's enough. So there are things that we can do. 211 00:14:26,789 --> 00:14:32,549 Personally, you know, to combat I would say burnout that's 212 00:14:32,549 --> 00:14:38,909 coming from our personal and, and work lives, you know, and I 213 00:14:38,909 --> 00:14:43,109 also believe that management and leadership have a role to play 214 00:14:43,109 --> 00:14:49,739 in all this as well. I think personally, some of us have 215 00:14:49,739 --> 00:14:55,049 characteristics that lead us more or less towards burnout, 216 00:14:55,799 --> 00:15:02,369 right. So if we are of the personality type that puts a 217 00:15:02,369 --> 00:15:07,199 tremendous amount of pressure on ourselves. Okay, we're not good 218 00:15:07,199 --> 00:15:14,579 delegators that can, can contribute to burnout. 219 00:15:15,779 --> 00:15:19,529 Especially if now there's extra work coming in at a certain 220 00:15:19,529 --> 00:15:22,439 point in time, and we all live in workplaces where certain 221 00:15:22,439 --> 00:15:25,529 months are really crazy, or certain weeks are really crazy. 222 00:15:25,919 --> 00:15:29,819 And if we just take it all on, and we don't compartmentalize 223 00:15:29,819 --> 00:15:33,749 and put certain things aside, then we're sort of ramping up to 224 00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:39,809 beyond, you know, towards that burnout place. If we, if we are 225 00:15:39,809 --> 00:15:44,459 the type of personality where we really need a tremendous amount 226 00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:52,979 of reassurance, or, you know, a pause now, not to say, that's 227 00:15:53,009 --> 00:15:56,699 not positive and workplace to be giving sort of kudos out. But 228 00:15:56,699 --> 00:16:01,829 there are some times where the leadership is, is also swamped, 229 00:16:01,829 --> 00:16:04,139 and they just may not be thinking in that way at a 230 00:16:04,139 --> 00:16:07,259 certain time. So if we have staff, and team members who are 231 00:16:07,259 --> 00:16:10,199 really need that constantly, and you're not getting it 232 00:16:10,199 --> 00:16:13,169 constantly, you can start to feel as though you're not 233 00:16:13,169 --> 00:16:17,009 getting recognized. Why am I doing this? Why do I bother, you 234 00:16:17,009 --> 00:16:23,879 know, and having more of a controlling a need to control in 235 00:16:23,879 --> 00:16:30,659 environments where things can kind of be unpredictable? Right? 236 00:16:31,889 --> 00:16:36,929 Those are things that also can contribute, I would say, the the 237 00:16:36,929 --> 00:16:40,439 critical piece around our personality traits, and burnout 238 00:16:40,439 --> 00:16:44,939 is knowing who we are. Who am I being honest with ourselves? 239 00:16:45,899 --> 00:16:49,919 Okay, am I more or less like this? You know, and there's no 240 00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:53,579 shame in that. It's just knowing ourselves. And knowing that, 241 00:16:53,939 --> 00:16:58,469 what do we need to do to mitigate that part? In the 242 00:16:58,469 --> 00:17:03,419 workplace, like who we are in the workplace? And I, I would 243 00:17:03,419 --> 00:17:07,769 say in that, in that DevOps world from, like, in preparing 244 00:17:07,769 --> 00:17:13,889 for today, and looking at that, you know, the burnout in this 245 00:17:13,889 --> 00:17:18,869 area 81%, you know, that was specifically DevOps. Right, what 246 00:17:18,869 --> 00:17:19,289 you were thinking? 247 00:17:19,290 --> 00:17:22,680 Jason Baum: Yeah, I think it was sad developers. Yeah. Developers 248 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:23,400 that work. Okay. 249 00:17:23,910 --> 00:17:28,680 Colleen Verriest: So when you think about the pandemic, and 250 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:34,890 then just having to take it and development and support to it to 251 00:17:34,890 --> 00:17:38,010 the scale that no one was anticipating prepare for, I 252 00:17:38,010 --> 00:17:41,130 mean, the whole world was working remotely. Right. So and 253 00:17:41,130 --> 00:17:45,660 not having the resources or the planning to prepare for that. I 254 00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:49,710 can't imagine what that felt like for developers, you know, 255 00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:52,590 Jason Baum: and it's already an industry that I think is 256 00:17:52,590 --> 00:17:57,240 synonymous with burnout, because coders all you ever think about 257 00:17:58,020 --> 00:18:04,680 I think about the the movie, The Social Network, and you look at 258 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,950 the they had like the like a glimpse of what it was in the 259 00:18:07,950 --> 00:18:10,260 early Facebook, and you're thinking about the Silicon 260 00:18:10,260 --> 00:18:12,390 Valley startups. And you think about all these software 261 00:18:12,390 --> 00:18:16,230 companies, and they're so cool, because they've got the ping 262 00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:20,100 pong tables, and this and that, but really, what they're what 263 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:23,400 they're doing is creating an environment where it's normal to 264 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,300 be at work all the time. Yes. Right. And I don't know if 265 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:28,560 that's very healthy. 266 00:18:33,089 --> 00:18:37,859 Colleen Verriest: I would venture to say, it isn't you, 267 00:18:38,219 --> 00:18:42,239 because there is no downtime, going back to what I was just 268 00:18:42,239 --> 00:18:46,409 saying, like, in terms of that downtime is almost a trick. You 269 00:18:46,409 --> 00:18:50,399 know, it's like, it's tricking you to think that it's fun to be 270 00:18:50,399 --> 00:18:53,129 you know, those are like, and that became like a movement. 271 00:18:53,129 --> 00:18:56,099 Now, I don't think organization should shy away from bringing in 272 00:18:56,099 --> 00:18:59,699 supportive things like, you know, downtime into the 273 00:18:59,699 --> 00:19:04,109 workplace, self care days, you know, things that are nurturing. 274 00:19:04,709 --> 00:19:07,229 But the same thing happens on Wall Street and some of the 275 00:19:07,259 --> 00:19:10,169 like, I know, you know, hedge funds, and some of these offices 276 00:19:10,169 --> 00:19:13,139 where people are at the office when, you know, the markets open 277 00:19:13,439 --> 00:19:16,949 in Asia. And they're there till whatever time of night and 278 00:19:16,949 --> 00:19:18,749 they're having food brought in and they're dry cleaning and 279 00:19:18,749 --> 00:19:21,809 massage all this stuff so that people are there and and they're 280 00:19:21,809 --> 00:19:24,719 there and they're there and they're working. You know, 281 00:19:25,529 --> 00:19:30,449 they're at some point that takes a toll on most people. Now, some 282 00:19:30,449 --> 00:19:33,209 people really thrive and this doesn't become an issue and 283 00:19:33,209 --> 00:19:38,309 that's all they that they can manage that and that feels good. 284 00:19:38,339 --> 00:19:43,229 But most people at some point in time, max out and burnout in 285 00:19:43,229 --> 00:19:51,539 those kinds of environments. You know, in terms of the internal 286 00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:56,519 peace, being something we have to pay attention to, and that 287 00:19:56,699 --> 00:20:00,959 knowing ourselves there's also the external piece, you know, 288 00:20:01,319 --> 00:20:05,489 what kind of environment? Are we in? What is this office setting? 289 00:20:05,819 --> 00:20:09,809 What is this business setting organizational setting? Is it a 290 00:20:09,809 --> 00:20:15,329 toxic work environment? You know, am I in a place where I'm 291 00:20:15,329 --> 00:20:17,639 being supported? Or I can be heard? 292 00:20:18,510 --> 00:20:20,850 Jason Baum: Or, you know, if you're in a toxic workplace? 293 00:20:23,069 --> 00:20:27,539 Colleen Verriest: Well, that's a good question. And I think that 294 00:20:27,539 --> 00:20:35,789 depends on the person. Now, if it's a person who if it's a 295 00:20:35,789 --> 00:20:42,269 person who can really put on blinders, and doesn't pay 296 00:20:42,269 --> 00:20:44,459 attention to what's happening, kind of goes and does their job 297 00:20:44,459 --> 00:20:46,589 leaves and goes home, some people can do that. And we've 298 00:20:46,589 --> 00:20:48,509 all known colleagues who are like, Yeah, I'm just here to do 299 00:20:48,509 --> 00:20:50,939 my job, and I'm going home, and none of this affects me, you 300 00:20:50,939 --> 00:20:54,329 know, then if you're more of a, you know, a tuned in a different 301 00:20:54,329 --> 00:20:58,349 way. I mean, I think it really, it's personal, because what's 302 00:20:58,349 --> 00:21:04,139 toxic to one person may not feel toxic to another. And, you know, 303 00:21:04,139 --> 00:21:11,579 for for most employees, you know, having I mean, being 304 00:21:11,579 --> 00:21:16,109 micromanaged can feel toxic to some people, not having a sense 305 00:21:16,109 --> 00:21:20,819 of professional sort of latitude where they can make some 306 00:21:20,819 --> 00:21:23,729 decisions and feeling feeling a sense of being affected. Right. 307 00:21:23,729 --> 00:21:27,029 So that goes back to the micromanaging. bullying in the 308 00:21:27,029 --> 00:21:31,139 workplace is certainly something that is part of or can be part 309 00:21:31,139 --> 00:21:39,359 of a toxic work environment. I think something that contributes 310 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,629 to toxic work environments can be folks when there's change 311 00:21:42,629 --> 00:21:49,319 leadership that don't, don't open themselves up to new things 312 00:21:49,319 --> 00:21:53,189 and kind of hold on to the old things, and then spew a lot of 313 00:21:53,189 --> 00:21:59,489 negativity against change, you know, in the, in the, how many 314 00:21:59,489 --> 00:22:01,949 times have we heard well, we never did that. We never did 315 00:22:01,949 --> 00:22:04,949 that before. That's not how we used to do things, you know, 316 00:22:04,979 --> 00:22:09,209 well, you know, and that we're not doing that anymore, here's 317 00:22:09,209 --> 00:22:11,609 what we're doing. And sometimes that train of progress needs to 318 00:22:11,609 --> 00:22:15,269 move, and you either have to get on or not. So when you have 319 00:22:15,269 --> 00:22:21,509 folks who kind of hold on to old ways of doing things, and resent 320 00:22:21,569 --> 00:22:28,529 change that can can create a toxic work environment. A lack 321 00:22:28,529 --> 00:22:32,939 of respect, you know, the inability to have honest 322 00:22:32,939 --> 00:22:35,879 communication for some, you know, that can feel like a toxic 323 00:22:35,879 --> 00:22:39,599 work environment. I think, I think employees are coming to 324 00:22:39,599 --> 00:22:42,929 the table with higher expectations, and rightfully so 325 00:22:42,929 --> 00:22:46,349 about what work should feel like, you know, and what, what 326 00:22:46,349 --> 00:22:50,009 can be possible in the workplace. And, and I think that 327 00:22:50,549 --> 00:22:55,739 organizations have, it's will be important for them to heed that 328 00:22:55,739 --> 00:23:00,509 call, because retention will get better turnover will, you know, 329 00:23:00,509 --> 00:23:06,239 you'll see less turnover, less burnout, really. And if people 330 00:23:06,239 --> 00:23:12,509 feel heard, and if people feel supported, particularly when 331 00:23:12,509 --> 00:23:15,239 they're starting to feel overwhelmed. And if they're 332 00:23:15,239 --> 00:23:17,519 brave enough to speak up and feel like they have the safe 333 00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:21,749 space to do that. And then they get the support they need, then 334 00:23:21,749 --> 00:23:26,189 wow, that's a win, because you have an employee who you feel is 335 00:23:26,189 --> 00:23:28,619 doing a great job, but he's struggling right now, because 336 00:23:28,619 --> 00:23:33,659 they're human. Leadership responds, does what they can to 337 00:23:33,659 --> 00:23:36,149 support them, hopefully, that works out and they feel heard 338 00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:41,519 and seen. And then they're going to show up in a new, an even 339 00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:44,909 more committed way. I've found that to be true. You know, when 340 00:23:44,909 --> 00:23:47,459 people feel supported, and they're at their lowest or they 341 00:23:47,459 --> 00:23:50,399 need to they need that help. You know, it's it's a win. 342 00:23:51,060 --> 00:23:53,160 Jason Baum: Yeah, that's a that's a culture thing, right? I 343 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,370 mean, that's culture is the culture. You know, something 344 00:23:56,370 --> 00:23:59,730 that you touched on earlier in the podcast. And you kind of 345 00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:03,270 just said it with retention, obviously makes me think of the 346 00:24:03,270 --> 00:24:06,480 great resignation that's going on right now. We'd be remiss not 347 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,540 to talk about it, because there is a movement right with people 348 00:24:09,540 --> 00:24:12,780 go, although I've said it on this podcast, I'm not sure if 349 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,680 people are leaving their bad job going to another bad job. And 350 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,560 then someone else is taking their bad job like is that 351 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,920 what's happening but because where are all these jobs coming 352 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,990 from? But the one of the things that I've read about it is 353 00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:31,140 interesting. There's, there's that piece of the great 354 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:33,870 resignation, where people are actually leaving, right? It's 355 00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:36,630 gotten to the point where whatever their workload, the 356 00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:40,170 culture, the toxic work, whatever the reason, because 357 00:24:40,170 --> 00:24:43,980 it's often not about the money anymore. It's very much about 358 00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:47,370 the environment where you're talking about. But there's 359 00:24:47,370 --> 00:24:50,250 another piece of the great resignation where people are 360 00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:57,090 resigning without quitting. They're kind of just not doing 361 00:24:57,090 --> 00:25:01,740 their work. They're just gliding they're just I sort of just 362 00:25:01,890 --> 00:25:07,350 existing without actually doing anything and kind of giving up. 363 00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:10,770 And that sounds like someone who's went through some type of 364 00:25:10,770 --> 00:25:11,850 burnout to me. 365 00:25:12,060 --> 00:25:15,030 Colleen Verriest: Okay, so you're saying resigning without 366 00:25:15,030 --> 00:25:19,710 quitting? So another staying in the job? Yes. Not producing not 367 00:25:20,010 --> 00:25:24,420 not actually filling the objectives of the role, just 368 00:25:24,420 --> 00:25:25,830 existing. But just showing 369 00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:27,900 Jason Baum: up? Yes. Just showing up. 370 00:25:29,250 --> 00:25:32,940 Colleen Verriest: Yeah, so that could be burnout. That could be 371 00:25:32,970 --> 00:25:41,010 please fire me. For me, do for me what I can do for myself, or 372 00:25:41,580 --> 00:25:47,820 pay attention? And I wonder, you know, how, how is leadership 373 00:25:47,820 --> 00:25:50,550 responding to that? Organizations? You know, I find 374 00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:54,570 that to be really fascinating, because I, in multiple 375 00:25:54,570 --> 00:25:57,270 leadership roles could never just ignore that. Right, you 376 00:25:57,270 --> 00:26:03,570 know, and, and let's be honest, not every employee of every 377 00:26:03,570 --> 00:26:06,120 organization, you're not, this is the truth. Not everyone will 378 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:10,680 be happy all the time. That is the truth. You wish it were not 379 00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:14,970 the case? Because you ultimately, you want everyone to 380 00:26:14,970 --> 00:26:18,570 feel okay. But we're humans? Well, we're humans and normal. 381 00:26:18,810 --> 00:26:23,640 Yeah. So it's not. However, if, you know, people are just 382 00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:30,780 gliding. I think there's also, you know, there's this piece 383 00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:35,760 where business folks that I've connected with recently have had 384 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,420 real difficulty hiring and replacing. So I don't know if 385 00:26:39,420 --> 00:26:43,650 people are afraid to confront that sort of gliding, because 386 00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:45,420 they're afraid they're not going to get someone to fill that 387 00:26:45,420 --> 00:26:49,320 seat. And people have a sense of like, I'm just so tired of this. 388 00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:53,310 So I'm just going to do the bare minimum. If that I guess and 389 00:26:53,610 --> 00:26:56,520 see, don't roll the dice. If they're not going to get rid of 390 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,990 you know, I'm not sure that's a really dicey, tricky, dynamic. 391 00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:05,280 Because then how do you know, there has to be some level of 392 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,780 accountability that that, you know, you still have to produce 393 00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:13,200 whatever it is that organization or entity is producing, whether 394 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,310 it's human services car dealership, who knows what, you 395 00:27:17,310 --> 00:27:20,550 know, you name it, I mean, you still need people show up and do 396 00:27:20,550 --> 00:27:27,960 their job, you know, right. If someone's burnt out, then, you 397 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,770 know, ideally, from a leadership perspective, you have to be able 398 00:27:31,770 --> 00:27:38,730 to confront that. And check in, you know, and create, ultimately 399 00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:43,200 create a sense of trust with your team members. And I know 400 00:27:43,230 --> 00:27:47,940 when I've noticed changes, and ideally, any leader that notices 401 00:27:47,940 --> 00:27:51,690 changes in a team member, it's really incumbent upon them to 402 00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:56,190 check in. It's, it's, it's a miss when we can and if you if 403 00:27:56,190 --> 00:27:59,730 you don't feel comfortable doing it alone, do it with a colleague 404 00:27:59,730 --> 00:28:02,610 that's non threatening. You know, like, Hey, call me and I'm 405 00:28:02,610 --> 00:28:07,740 noticing this is not like you, you know, are you okay? And 406 00:28:08,610 --> 00:28:12,690 that's the first step I believe in, in someone feeling 407 00:28:12,690 --> 00:28:15,330 recognized, you know, if they're sort of showing up in a way 408 00:28:15,330 --> 00:28:17,760 that's different, that can be really, it can be a little 409 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,800 scary, but can be very validating. 410 00:28:19,950 --> 00:28:22,710 Jason Baum: Maybe that's all they need to sometimes know. It 411 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,070 feels like to me, right? Yeah, it opens the door, it allows 412 00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:28,740 them to be like, Look, and then they can unload. It's like, I 413 00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:32,130 got this, I got this, I got this somehow I got this too. How can 414 00:28:32,130 --> 00:28:34,740 we don't have more people doing it? You know, they'll go off, 415 00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:38,280 right? When you give them the opportunity to and at times, 416 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,220 that's really what they need. And then yeah, you hear him? 417 00:28:41,220 --> 00:28:43,950 Right, the fact that you notice and can hear there's a problem 418 00:28:43,950 --> 00:28:47,490 and acknowledge the problem is, is half the battle. 419 00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:53,040 Colleen Verriest: Yeah, and I, I have seen that work in just the 420 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,710 way you described. And I've had a staff member where I did 421 00:28:58,710 --> 00:29:01,620 notice, even in a meeting, if someone was just not presenting, 422 00:29:01,650 --> 00:29:05,610 you know, and then here we all are on, you know, Zoom now and 423 00:29:05,610 --> 00:29:08,400 so you're not feeling like that body language, but you can sense 424 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,900 you know, I think that body language and people's energy can 425 00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:17,040 is can be a little bit harder to tap into. It's not impossible. 426 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,600 But I had a staff member who just wasn't themselves in a 427 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,630 meeting, I mean, just really not themselves. And I checked in and 428 00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:27,030 then I asked if they were, you know, something going on because 429 00:29:27,030 --> 00:29:30,660 you're just Something's off. And then I found out there was 430 00:29:30,660 --> 00:29:35,370 something totally unrelated to work going on, you know, whether 431 00:29:35,370 --> 00:29:38,310 these whether someone feels comfortable sharing that or not, 432 00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:40,800 sometimes it can just be you know, what, the tip of the 433 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,380 iceberg, you know, and you're letting them know in this and it 434 00:29:43,380 --> 00:29:46,920 has nothing to do with work. But yes, I have a lot going on. Then 435 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,320 you know, as a leader, this person has a lot going on 436 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,190 outside of work. How could Okay, and then the next question is, 437 00:29:53,970 --> 00:30:00,000 how can I support you? You know, is there anything we can do? 438 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,750 Hear a shift here for the next week? Or a couple of days? You 439 00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:06,060 know, it doesn't have to be forever, you're not. I think 440 00:30:06,060 --> 00:30:07,620 sometimes people are afraid they're going to make 441 00:30:07,620 --> 00:30:10,680 accommodations that they then have to, you know, hold on to 442 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,630 forever. But that's not the case. 443 00:30:13,410 --> 00:30:15,870 Jason Baum: Or that there's no one like that, that no one wants 444 00:30:15,870 --> 00:30:19,650 to help or that there's no, I don't think and maybe I don't 445 00:30:19,650 --> 00:30:22,440 want to speak for every manager that's out there. But I don't 446 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,980 think there is any manager who is actively like, I'm going to 447 00:30:25,980 --> 00:30:27,960 overload this person to the point where they're going to go 448 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,920 quit. No, no, I don't think that's I don't think that it 449 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,640 should be not the mentality of any manager that is out there. 450 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,290 I'm sure there's probably some some some bad managers there. Of 451 00:30:40,290 --> 00:30:43,710 course, there are. But I don't even think for them that the 452 00:30:43,710 --> 00:30:48,420 mission is to get someone to quit because why now you're now 453 00:30:48,420 --> 00:30:53,550 you're down in a, someone to help with I mean, now you have 454 00:30:53,550 --> 00:30:57,960 the workload on your on your back to write. So I think maybe 455 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,260 it is just hearing it and understanding what what is on 456 00:31:01,260 --> 00:31:04,170 their plate under and then working towards how you can 457 00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:08,670 divvy up the work past it, maybe some things aren't necessarily 458 00:31:08,670 --> 00:31:12,630 as high priority as as, as they thought, you know, there's so 459 00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:12,870 many 460 00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:15,360 Colleen Verriest: things, right, helping someone prioritize, I 461 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:23,310 think can be really effective. And sometimes, in the midst of 462 00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:27,390 being overwhelmed and burnt out, in a sense, it can be about 463 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,280 looking at something, reframing something, you know, taking 464 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,270 whatever those items are within someone's work life, let's say, 465 00:31:37,020 --> 00:31:39,840 and being able to look at it with a fresh set of eyes. And I 466 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,290 think sometimes we're just in it, and we don't see it clearly. 467 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,340 And sometimes just having that conversation with a peer 468 00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:51,060 sometimes who's not maybe you're not so threatened by can be 469 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:54,030 helpful, like, Hey, am I looking at this correctly, maybe you 470 00:31:54,030 --> 00:31:56,700 don't have to go to your supervisor, if you're feeling 471 00:31:56,850 --> 00:32:00,300 less comfortable doing that initially. And sometimes appear 472 00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:05,400 a colleague can say, you know, can give you a suggestion. And 473 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,340 it can kind of open up a new paths, a possible way of 474 00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:11,100 handling something or prioritizing something and I 475 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:16,080 think, you know, monotony at work can attribute to burnout, 476 00:32:16,170 --> 00:32:21,570 you know, certainly I would imagine, in the developing 477 00:32:21,570 --> 00:32:26,280 world, that monotony, you know, and, and this sense of like, is 478 00:32:27,090 --> 00:32:32,400 having a feeling of impact like is what I'm doing really having 479 00:32:32,970 --> 00:32:37,740 an impact. Feeling that sense of, again, it goes to efficacy, 480 00:32:37,860 --> 00:32:43,170 you know, and, and, depending on what it is, that fills us up as 481 00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:46,650 individuals like what energizes us, what satisfies us in the 482 00:32:46,650 --> 00:32:50,190 workplace, and if you can find those things in your day, day to 483 00:32:50,190 --> 00:32:53,640 day, where you can kind of get to those sooner and know that 484 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,050 you can maybe prioritize those things that energize you. And 485 00:32:58,050 --> 00:33:02,310 then realize that the other things may be necessary parts of 486 00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:06,780 your job. But you know, if you can shift them to like a later 487 00:33:06,780 --> 00:33:09,450 part of your day, or knock them out in the beginning, but kind 488 00:33:09,450 --> 00:33:13,560 of looking at your, your work life, your work day in a way 489 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,770 where you can recognize the things that actually you do 490 00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:21,030 enjoy, I think that's important. And then realizing I'm not going 491 00:33:21,030 --> 00:33:27,090 to love every part of my job, you know. And then being able to 492 00:33:27,870 --> 00:33:32,550 kind of carve out those times, so that maybe you bookend your 493 00:33:32,550 --> 00:33:35,790 days with two energizing parts of your work if you have the 494 00:33:35,790 --> 00:33:38,040 luxury of like scheduling your own time. 495 00:33:38,550 --> 00:33:45,120 Jason Baum: Yeah. And I do want to there's this word that just 496 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,840 keeps coming to my mind constantly as we're talking. And 497 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:55,290 it is. Boundaries. But before you before we get into that, I 498 00:33:55,290 --> 00:33:58,440 do want to ask, before we get into that as part of this, it's 499 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,890 hard. Part of the same question is, you know, how do you avoid 500 00:34:01,890 --> 00:34:04,890 burnout? And is it even avoidable? Because it sounds 501 00:34:04,890 --> 00:34:10,410 pretty normal. But then the other piece for me because I'll 502 00:34:10,410 --> 00:34:14,040 just speak about myself. I set it in the beginning when I went 503 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,270 on my vacation, I shut everything off. For really the 504 00:34:18,270 --> 00:34:22,950 first time in two years I did that I've really been working on 505 00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:28,290 boundaries. And I think for myself, I have seen improvement 506 00:34:28,290 --> 00:34:33,270 in my own sense of when I am feeling burned out regardless of 507 00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:38,940 where it is in life. I have the ability to say no. And not like 508 00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:43,770 impolitely like nope, not doing it. But but you know, but But 509 00:34:43,860 --> 00:34:50,760 thinking of alternatives, but also saying no. or delegating 510 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,550 like you said earlier trying to figure out how I was a bad 511 00:34:53,550 --> 00:34:56,460 delegator before took too long and too much on you have heroes 512 00:34:56,460 --> 00:34:58,050 right? You have the people who want to play hero you have 513 00:34:58,050 --> 00:34:59,880 people who are like, I'll take it I'll take it I'll take it 514 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:04,560 out. And then And then we talked about that. So is burnout 515 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,510 avoidable? And, you know, how do we combat it? 516 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,730 Colleen Verriest: Yeah. I think burnout is something we can 517 00:35:14,730 --> 00:35:18,420 mitigate. I don't know that we can avoid it altogether. At 518 00:35:18,420 --> 00:35:21,870 certain times, you know, and maybe it's elements of burnout. 519 00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:24,510 Maybe at one point in time, you may have the exhaustion piece, 520 00:35:24,510 --> 00:35:26,910 but you may not be so pessimistic about work, but you 521 00:35:26,910 --> 00:35:29,460 may have elements of it, right. So I don't know that anyone 522 00:35:29,820 --> 00:35:33,870 feels burnout. 100%, for sure, but I think we have elements of 523 00:35:33,870 --> 00:35:39,540 it that we can mitigate. And boundaries is a key piece. 524 00:35:40,050 --> 00:35:47,370 Pausing, taking breaks, are critical. So just let's speak 525 00:35:47,370 --> 00:35:51,030 about the boundary piece. And you mentioned it, Jason. So one 526 00:35:51,030 --> 00:35:56,670 of the things that I think can feel really uncomfortable is 527 00:35:56,670 --> 00:35:59,190 setting new boundaries, it can be uncomfortable for the person 528 00:35:59,190 --> 00:36:01,860 and uncomfortable for our colleagues, because we've now 529 00:36:01,860 --> 00:36:06,150 sort of created a new pattern of behavior that those are those 530 00:36:06,540 --> 00:36:12,060 around us are accustomed to, say, responding to email after 531 00:36:12,060 --> 00:36:16,830 6pm. And they want an answer after 6pm. So use an example of 532 00:36:16,890 --> 00:36:21,930 I'm going to stop checking email at 6pm. Because it's so easy on 533 00:36:21,930 --> 00:36:28,500 our phones, and etc. So, a colleague of mine started doing 534 00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:33,090 that. And the response was, are you okay? Is everything okay? 535 00:36:33,690 --> 00:36:37,890 You haven't been getting back to me? Are you sick? Are you going 536 00:36:37,890 --> 00:36:41,310 for treatments, you know, that kind of thing. And in reality, 537 00:36:41,310 --> 00:36:44,460 that person was really okay, and actually doing something really 538 00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:49,440 healthy. So, when you do that, you have to be prepared for 539 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,740 people being uncomfortable, and not all the people in your life, 540 00:36:52,740 --> 00:36:55,890 but some people because some people will never turn it off. 541 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,540 However, once we do that, I think it gives permission to our 542 00:37:00,540 --> 00:37:03,180 colleagues, like, Oh, if that person does it, then maybe I can 543 00:37:03,180 --> 00:37:07,020 do that too, and create sort of a culture shift. So I love the 544 00:37:07,020 --> 00:37:10,380 idea of boundaries. And I'm a big proponent of that, you know, 545 00:37:10,410 --> 00:37:14,520 stop checking it six, or 530 or five, whatever your number is, 546 00:37:14,580 --> 00:37:19,410 you know, and then nothing is going to change that's life 547 00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:25,170 threatening. With between five and nine or five at 8:35pm to 548 00:37:25,170 --> 00:37:29,280 8:30am. If you needed to be contacted for an emergency, I'm 549 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,680 sure someone would figure out how to get in touch with you. 550 00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:38,100 And most things can wait 24 hours, most things. So being 551 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:42,030 able to sit with that. And in I think because we're all really 552 00:37:42,030 --> 00:37:46,170 wired now, you know, anything, we want to look up any answer we 553 00:37:46,170 --> 00:37:48,840 want, we get it whenever we want. I see it in my son just 554 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,500 Google that for me or ask Alexa, you know, so we have to like 555 00:37:52,530 --> 00:37:55,080 trick ourselves and start working with ourselves to take 556 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,520 that break key key. Because especially if we're not happy in 557 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,590 our jobs, why would we want to spend more time engaging in a 558 00:38:04,590 --> 00:38:07,590 job that we're not happy in after hours, it's just going to 559 00:38:07,590 --> 00:38:13,020 make that feeling of dread worse, and dissatisfaction 560 00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:17,340 worse, because you're resenting all the time you're spending 561 00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:21,540 working, when you don't like your work, or you're feeling 562 00:38:21,540 --> 00:38:27,000 disconnected. So it's sort of a vicious cycle. I also think, oh, 563 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,680 go ahead. Did you want to say something? Jason? 564 00:38:29,220 --> 00:38:31,350 Jason Baum: No, please go ahead. I was just gonna add something. 565 00:38:31,350 --> 00:38:32,310 But yeah, please go ahead. 566 00:38:33,060 --> 00:38:38,220 Colleen Verriest: You know, and I also think, in that when you 567 00:38:38,220 --> 00:38:41,730 take time off, you take time off, this is just another piece 568 00:38:41,730 --> 00:38:45,840 of the boundary that when you're on vacation, and for some of us 569 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,960 who've had different roles or leadership roles, you understand 570 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:55,980 that you're taking on certain things at certain times. How, 571 00:38:55,980 --> 00:39:01,590 however, if you're on vacation, and this is quality time that 572 00:39:01,590 --> 00:39:05,550 you've now designated, and gosh, we need to unplug, we all need 573 00:39:05,550 --> 00:39:08,760 to unplug, you know, kudos to you for doing that. That was 574 00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:11,370 awesome to hear that, you know, and then the impact 575 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,830 Jason Baum: comes at a breaking point, though. It shouldn't get 576 00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:14,880 to that but yeah, right. 577 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:21,330 Colleen Verriest: Right. You know, it also, and I've seen 578 00:39:21,330 --> 00:39:24,450 this, as I said before, it really does give permission to 579 00:39:24,450 --> 00:39:28,110 your staff. If my staff saw me answering email my entire 580 00:39:28,110 --> 00:39:31,230 vacation, what did you think? What message are you sending? 581 00:39:31,590 --> 00:39:38,070 You know, I'm sending a terrible message. And it's not it's 582 00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:40,860 ideally not what I want my staff to do all you so you have to 583 00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:43,830 walk the walk. And I think as leaders we have to walk the walk 584 00:39:43,860 --> 00:39:48,510 and also don't penalize anybody. If they actually do that, you 585 00:39:48,510 --> 00:39:50,580 know, on your team. It can't be like, Oh, well, we're calling 586 00:39:50,580 --> 00:39:53,370 goes on vacation. We never hear from her. No, you don't, you 587 00:39:53,370 --> 00:39:56,310 know, no, you don't, you know, let the people on your in your 588 00:39:56,310 --> 00:40:01,260 circle now. And really take advantage of that break, because 589 00:40:01,260 --> 00:40:07,260 that will help. It will you will feel refreshed, you will feel a 590 00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:15,570 sense of separation from the workplace, which then can help 591 00:40:15,630 --> 00:40:17,160 with burnout. Ultimately, 592 00:40:17,250 --> 00:40:19,140 Jason Baum: there are so many studies that have been done 593 00:40:19,890 --> 00:40:25,290 since the pandemic, even just just specifically about what you 594 00:40:25,290 --> 00:40:29,250 just talked about this time, right? And the fact that we do 595 00:40:29,250 --> 00:40:33,090 need to have time to disconnect and that you're, I mean, just I 596 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,360 so many businesses are now implementing it. Not enough more 597 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,410 need to but you know, mental health days or an extra day 598 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,730 holiday a month or I've seen the four day work week starting to 599 00:40:44,730 --> 00:40:48,000 really take off in many companies. I hope that's the 600 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,160 thing. I'm going to say out loud and proud. I know. Our CEO 601 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,000 listens. I'll say it now it's public. No, I've cuz I'm a 602 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,970 believer. And I've I've also read up on it's not just oh, I 603 00:40:59,970 --> 00:41:04,110 want a four day work work week. There. There are proven studies 604 00:41:04,140 --> 00:41:06,630 on companies that actually have four day work weeks, where 605 00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:10,200 productivity actually improves. Oh, for sure. And it's because 606 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,620 the weight load is not you know, they're not people aren't 607 00:41:13,620 --> 00:41:17,610 carrying all this for so long, and they get a breather and you 608 00:41:17,610 --> 00:41:20,010 come back refreshed, just like I did on my vacation and told my 609 00:41:20,010 --> 00:41:23,310 entire staff, you got to do it. Now you got to go on vacation, 610 00:41:23,340 --> 00:41:27,060 you need to do something for yourself and unplug. So, yeah, 611 00:41:27,090 --> 00:41:29,970 unfortunately, we're running up against time. I would love to 612 00:41:29,970 --> 00:41:31,920 continue this conversation. Perhaps we should. 613 00:41:32,940 --> 00:41:35,070 Colleen Verriest: I would love to. There's more to be said 614 00:41:35,070 --> 00:41:35,940 there's more to be said. 615 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,720 Jason Baum: Absolutely. Colleen, thank you so much for joining us 616 00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:42,690 today. This is an absolute pleasure to have you and talk on 617 00:41:42,690 --> 00:41:43,560 this subject. 618 00:41:43,620 --> 00:41:45,330 Colleen Verriest: Oh yeah. Thank you so much, Jason. 619 00:41:45,930 --> 00:41:47,940 Jason Baum: And thank you for listening to this episode of the 620 00:41:47,940 --> 00:41:51,090 humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode The 621 00:41:51,090 --> 00:41:54,210 way I always do, encouraging you to become a member of DevOps 622 00:41:54,210 --> 00:41:57,510 Institute to get access to even more great resources just like 623 00:41:57,510 --> 00:42:01,500 this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of 624 00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:04,260 all, stay human. Live long and prosper. 625 00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:08,670 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 626 00:42:08,670 --> 00:42:12,210 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 627 00:42:12,210 --> 00:42:15,570 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 628 00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:19,050 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 629 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:20,100 You belong