1 00:00:02,939 --> 00:00:05,819 Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a 2 00:00:05,819 --> 00:00:09,449 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,479 --> 00:00:13,799 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework. 4 00:00:16,529 --> 00:00:19,499 Duena Blomstrom: Essentially, it's a concept I've arrived at 5 00:00:19,529 --> 00:00:23,999 what is keeping big incumbent institutions in that case, banks 6 00:00:24,179 --> 00:00:27,839 from doing the right thing we all knew a giant is needed, we 7 00:00:27,839 --> 00:00:30,959 would all appear more human centered design, what seemed to 8 00:00:30,959 --> 00:00:31,529 be the problem. 9 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:36,540 Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member 10 00:00:36,540 --> 00:00:40,440 experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,310 podcast. Welcome back. I hope you've had a great week. On 12 00:00:44,310 --> 00:00:48,090 today's episode, we're going to just jump right in, because we 13 00:00:48,090 --> 00:00:51,180 need all the time we can to talk about this, we're going to focus 14 00:00:51,180 --> 00:00:56,070 on psychological safety today. psychological safety to me is 15 00:00:56,070 --> 00:01:00,420 something that I feel is as a human right, I feel like we have 16 00:01:00,420 --> 00:01:04,140 the right to be psychologically safe in the workplace. That 17 00:01:04,140 --> 00:01:07,170 being said, it's a little more complicated to that. It's a 18 00:01:07,170 --> 00:01:11,070 group dynamic in teams. It's a concept defined by academics in 19 00:01:11,070 --> 00:01:16,650 particular Professor Amy Edmondson of Harvard and studied 20 00:01:16,650 --> 00:01:22,350 by Google. In their project Aristotle. It's been proven to 21 00:01:22,350 --> 00:01:26,190 be the cornerstone of any team's productivity. Teams that have 22 00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:32,280 high psychological safety are up to 40% more productive. In 2019. 23 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,480 state of DevOps report found that this culture of 24 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,810 psychological safety is predictive of software delivery 25 00:01:39,810 --> 00:01:43,050 performance, organizational performance and productivity. 26 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:47,400 Here to discuss the topic with me is Dwayne a Blum strim. 27 00:01:48,450 --> 00:01:54,150 Dwayne is the co founder CPO and CEO of people not tech, and the 28 00:01:54,150 --> 00:01:57,720 author of people before tech, a book about the importance of 29 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,050 psychological safety and teamwork in the digital age. 30 00:02:01,410 --> 00:02:05,670 She's also a speaker writer, publishes weekly LinkedIn 31 00:02:05,670 --> 00:02:08,610 newsletters on chasing psychological safety. And the 32 00:02:08,610 --> 00:02:12,540 future is agile a Forbes as well as being a Forbes contributor. 33 00:02:12,780 --> 00:02:15,870 She's the creator of the emotional banking and human debt 34 00:02:15,870 --> 00:02:19,350 concepts, and authored a book titled emotional banking about 35 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:22,170 fixing culture in the FinTech world, and listening to 36 00:02:22,170 --> 00:02:25,920 customers feelings about money. I have a lot of feelings about 37 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:30,570 money. So Dana, welcome to the podcast. Are you ready to get 38 00:02:30,570 --> 00:02:31,110 human? 39 00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:35,130 Duena Blomstrom: Yes, yes, very, very excited to be here, a big 40 00:02:35,130 --> 00:02:39,000 fan of the DevOps Institute have always been awesome. This is 41 00:02:39,030 --> 00:02:41,580 this is a treat for me. So thank you for having me. 42 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:44,340 Jason Baum: It's very exciting to have you I'm really 43 00:02:44,340 --> 00:02:47,250 appreciative of you coming on to talk about this. This is this is 44 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,000 a topic that's pretty deep. I will say, 45 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:53,400 Duena Blomstrom: the mother lode of all topics, 46 00:02:53,550 --> 00:02:56,370 Jason Baum: it really is, when you talk psychological safety. 47 00:02:56,850 --> 00:03:02,610 You're the creator of the human debt concept. Perhaps our 48 00:03:02,610 --> 00:03:07,200 listeners have heard about psychological safety. I think 49 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:11,100 it'd be great to start with human debt and talk about that. 50 00:03:11,130 --> 00:03:14,850 So maybe if you could explain it, maybe just kind of define it 51 00:03:14,850 --> 00:03:16,860 and explain what what that means. 52 00:03:17,490 --> 00:03:18,960 Duena Blomstrom: The easiest definition I've got because I 53 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,210 wrote it, so I can kind of change it as I give it back to 54 00:03:21,210 --> 00:03:24,450 you. But as long as we all agree and understand what the core of 55 00:03:24,450 --> 00:03:29,220 it, I'm happy. But essentially, it's a concept I've arrived at, 56 00:03:29,730 --> 00:03:33,870 as I was studying, in short, what is keeping big incumbent 57 00:03:33,870 --> 00:03:37,950 institutions in that case, banks from doing the right thing, 58 00:03:37,980 --> 00:03:41,190 doing the right thing by their consumers is what I didn't quite 59 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:45,420 understand what the holdup was, we all knew Agile is needed, we 60 00:03:45,420 --> 00:03:49,590 were all clear on on human centered design, we all kind of 61 00:03:49,590 --> 00:03:53,130 knew all the buzzwords, we we even all of us were able to tell 62 00:03:53,130 --> 00:03:55,800 you what the perfect digital experience was. So what seemed 63 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,280 to be the problem. So as I was accepting that it occurred to me 64 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:04,110 that much as I don't want that to be the answer, it is a 65 00:04:04,140 --> 00:04:08,700 organizational issue. And everyone has essentially too big 66 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:15,060 of a cultural problem to be accessing the new mindset that 67 00:04:15,060 --> 00:04:18,450 we need for agile and to be accessing the speed we need to 68 00:04:18,450 --> 00:04:22,440 deliver and the kind of the type of collaboration that that needs 69 00:04:22,470 --> 00:04:25,500 out of our people. So when I was figuring out why they couldn't 70 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,680 do by better by their consumers, the answer really was it's 71 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,420 because they can't do better by their own people. And really 72 00:04:33,420 --> 00:04:38,130 what that means to me or or to the definition of human that is 73 00:04:38,130 --> 00:04:41,700 that just the same way that we acquire technical debt and 74 00:04:41,730 --> 00:04:45,390 everyone listening to this knows full well what I'm on about is 75 00:04:45,390 --> 00:04:48,960 the same way that we've we've acquired human that which is the 76 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,650 equivalent for people, practically anytime that we have 77 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:55,230 started something to fix something in the workplace and 78 00:04:55,230 --> 00:04:59,970 kind of dropped it. Anytime that a problem that we were trying 79 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,170 entreprise became a second hand citizen or forgotten or got 80 00:05:04,170 --> 00:05:08,190 funding called or the management change, or people fought and 81 00:05:08,190 --> 00:05:12,660 there was tension or there was a toxicity or there was no, just 82 00:05:12,660 --> 00:05:18,000 hundreds of examples in which we create human that is, we as 83 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,110 humans, we as organizations, and it's, unfortunately, if you 84 00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:24,840 start looking at it that way, you start seeing it everywhere. 85 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:27,600 And there's no real organization that doesn't have any human 86 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,430 that, the only thing you can do is start without it. And the big 87 00:05:32,430 --> 00:05:36,030 digital winners have done that they started from no human that. 88 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,290 And then with that in mind, they tried not to get any. But for 89 00:05:40,290 --> 00:05:42,720 the rest of us who didn't even know why it was weren't quite 90 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,080 that concerned, we didn't put people first we put people as an 91 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,440 afterthought, we created human data, and we are creating it 92 00:05:49,470 --> 00:05:53,940 every day that we don't do human work. And if you look at the 93 00:05:53,940 --> 00:05:58,740 human work being done in the workplace today, you'll be able 94 00:05:58,740 --> 00:06:01,800 to start hoping that that is because we don't do any, we 95 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,550 don't even let people express the idea that they might have 96 00:06:05,550 --> 00:06:08,910 any kind of feelings at work that they're meant to come in 97 00:06:08,910 --> 00:06:12,240 there, do some code and disappear and not bother us in 98 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,690 any unprofessional way. That cannot continue, obviously. And 99 00:06:15,690 --> 00:06:18,660 we're creating more and more of this human that. So in short 100 00:06:18,660 --> 00:06:22,320 human that is all the wrongs we have been righted by our people, 101 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,200 your DNI or when we don't pay them well, when we don't respect 102 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,360 them, or we don't like them or when they don't have 103 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,350 psychological safety. And because of that human that we 104 00:06:31,350 --> 00:06:33,450 cannot be winning like the guys that don't have it. 105 00:06:33,930 --> 00:06:37,110 Jason Baum: I'm still fascinated by companies that are like, we 106 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:46,260 give seven PTO days and our work from home policy is, you know, 107 00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:49,920 when the can be done on something that's very wishy 108 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:55,290 washy or, or parental leave, you get two weeks, something like 109 00:06:55,290 --> 00:07:00,720 that. And they and they float it like this is a good thing. Yeah, 110 00:07:01,170 --> 00:07:05,400 there is a lot of human debt out there. And I guess we're 111 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:12,480 starting to see companies recognize that. But as someone 112 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,650 who talks to people like yourself, or companies who are 113 00:07:17,010 --> 00:07:21,630 incorporating a lot of these positive things to focus on the 114 00:07:21,630 --> 00:07:27,870 human, why is it forgotten? Pretty much all the time, and 115 00:07:27,870 --> 00:07:33,990 was the norm, right? How we operated prior to, obviously, 116 00:07:33,990 --> 00:07:38,040 it's still going on. But I think this big shift, obviously caused 117 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,300 by the pandemic, probably the, the one of the if not the only 118 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:46,230 positive to come out of it? Is this recognition because 119 00:07:46,230 --> 00:07:50,790 everyone paused and said, Hey, wait a minute. But why was it 120 00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:55,620 the norm? And why do we still sometimes forget about it? I 121 00:07:55,620 --> 00:07:56,370 think it's worse, 122 00:07:56,370 --> 00:07:59,070 Duena Blomstrom: then we forget about it, I think collectively, 123 00:07:59,070 --> 00:08:03,660 we don't want to admit it exists. When we do it feels too 124 00:08:03,660 --> 00:08:10,110 big to tackle. When we do tackle it, we then end up in print and 125 00:08:10,110 --> 00:08:12,330 the bigger the organization, the less providers you're gonna have 126 00:08:12,330 --> 00:08:15,840 to superheroes that have, or you're gonna have superheroes 127 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,000 and people with their hearts in the right place is what I call 128 00:08:18,660 --> 00:08:21,420 is what I call these people that have already putting themselves 129 00:08:21,420 --> 00:08:24,420 on the line to make do the right thing by other humans in their 130 00:08:24,420 --> 00:08:29,040 organizations. But so I think what's happening really is we 131 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:34,110 were operating in an incorrect structure that wasn't fit for 132 00:08:34,110 --> 00:08:39,240 purpose, the way the business was, was trying to shoehorn a 133 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,800 completely different way of doing things into an existing 134 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,860 very corseted way of doing things was never going to work. 135 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:51,030 We all knew in the industry, that kind of by the industry, I 136 00:08:51,030 --> 00:08:55,500 mean, all of us that knew what Agile was, knew that something 137 00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:59,700 big will have to happen. And that there's no way we can 138 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:04,470 continuously come. We can have it here in this corner, while 139 00:09:04,470 --> 00:09:07,530 command and control are happening. While teams are not 140 00:09:07,530 --> 00:09:10,560 teams, while people don't discuss the dynamics inside 141 00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:14,250 them, why we don't allow humans to be humans at all, we cannot 142 00:09:14,250 --> 00:09:17,160 do that which is not happening. And we knew this all of us, but 143 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,550 we just thought essentially, hopefully, eventually the the 144 00:09:20,550 --> 00:09:23,190 other shoe will drop and dinner will just come along, that would 145 00:09:23,190 --> 00:09:25,620 have happened. But in my view without COVID It would have been 146 00:09:25,620 --> 00:09:28,530 a much longer process. So I think in the wake of COVID Like 147 00:09:28,530 --> 00:09:32,460 you say the biggest win is this we have we can everyone that 148 00:09:32,460 --> 00:09:36,510 claimed it cannot be done has to shut up it can be done. And now 149 00:09:36,510 --> 00:09:39,870 that it is being done, how do we function? What do we do we you 150 00:09:39,870 --> 00:09:42,810 don't have line of sight? You can be sure that this developer 151 00:09:42,810 --> 00:09:47,910 is not on Facebook, what do you do instead? And more so from an 152 00:09:47,910 --> 00:09:51,360 organizational perspective, I'd like to be clear about this. I 153 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,720 hate the term organization and I normally very rarely ever touch 154 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,900 it because to me organizations are it's really Santa Claus, 155 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:00,210 right? What is an organization if we wait for Have the 156 00:10:00,210 --> 00:10:03,360 organization to fix anything, it's never gonna happen at all 157 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,780 right? So we can't be talking about it, it gets my goat every 158 00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:10,050 time I see these hundreds of, of LinkedIn posts about the 159 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:12,000 organization should do this. Don't we agree that the 160 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,060 organization is that it's nice and lovely to have a common 161 00:10:15,060 --> 00:10:18,210 enemy. And if we just wanted to do a bit over beer, we should 162 00:10:18,210 --> 00:10:21,240 keep it. But if I want to change anything we just stop talking 163 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,700 about and then I mean, even like the big thinkers and stuff, 164 00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:26,220 everyone. So I Oh, 165 00:10:26,250 --> 00:10:28,860 Jason Baum: you're so right. I love it. I like I'm like preach, 166 00:10:28,860 --> 00:10:32,850 preach, do it. Because you're so right with this organization, 167 00:10:32,850 --> 00:10:36,270 Mitt Romney who like I don't whatever your feel about pod 168 00:10:36,270 --> 00:10:41,040 politics had this line about company or organizations are 169 00:10:41,070 --> 00:10:44,490 people like that that line? And it's like, and that was stuck 170 00:10:44,490 --> 00:10:47,790 with me? Because it's like, yeah, because no kidding, like, 171 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:51,120 who makes up the organization, one of the newest titles that I 172 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,210 heard that I really love. And I know it's it's probably maybe 173 00:10:54,210 --> 00:10:57,330 now it's a couple of years old as the chief culture officer, 174 00:10:57,420 --> 00:11:00,480 someone whose job is purely to focus on, 175 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,670 Duena Blomstrom: I take great joy in asking why that position 176 00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:09,000 exists in most cases. And as you can imagine, that doesn't land 177 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:14,490 very well. People are not their favorite. I've liked to be the 178 00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:18,390 kind of human being who is smart enough to be strategic and 179 00:11:18,390 --> 00:11:22,860 diplomatic about this, because the size of the issue requires 180 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,650 people who are strategic and diplomatic and know how to 181 00:11:25,650 --> 00:11:30,870 slowly and calmly seep into the consciousness of these sapient 182 00:11:30,870 --> 00:11:34,350 risk adverse execs and go, I'm serious. Now we've got to do 183 00:11:34,350 --> 00:11:37,410 this human work thing. Now this is now the time maybe there's a 184 00:11:37,410 --> 00:11:41,640 way to do that. No, me I cannot, I just cannot comprehend how we 185 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:46,560 can reliably just go to sleep and wake up knowing we are not 186 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:50,190 doing the best we can. And the things we should be doing are 187 00:11:50,190 --> 00:11:54,900 not hard to do. We are simply for whatever reason have entered 188 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:58,860 or collectively as humans, this denial of things are going to be 189 00:11:58,860 --> 00:12:01,800 the way things are going to be and I can't really affect this 190 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,530 because it's too big. And it's too complicated. It's absolute 191 00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:07,470 bollocks to use an English word. I don't know if it's allowed on 192 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:08,400 your podcast or not. 193 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,400 Jason Baum: But it's absolutely allowed for there's no filter 194 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:12,630 here. Appreciate that. 195 00:12:12,630 --> 00:12:14,790 Duena Blomstrom: And it's kind of it's borderline, I think even 196 00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:20,130 the BBC allows bollocks. But it is absolutely poppycock. Because 197 00:12:20,430 --> 00:12:24,480 we can do these things, there's, there is no to do about the 198 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:30,900 human that that isn't breakable into an a list on a backlog and 199 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:34,680 then into tickets that you can move on your to do it. If you're 200 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:38,040 not doing that, it's just you don't want to and in quite 201 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,710 honestly, we're going back to the organization thing. Now. 202 00:12:41,730 --> 00:12:47,670 There are now topics that are organizational, much of the 203 00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:50,670 organization itself is useless in terms of changing anything, 204 00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:55,530 it does exist as a post facto entity that fucks up everything 205 00:12:55,530 --> 00:12:57,870 for us if you stop to think about it, because most 206 00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:01,320 organizations and we're touching now on the crux of the issue, 207 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,500 have gone through this, like you're asking, why is that? How 208 00:13:04,500 --> 00:13:07,560 did we end up that we ended up there because we made business, 209 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,860 the business world respond to a different kind of to do than we 210 00:13:10,860 --> 00:13:13,740 were doing now. Right? We'd like in the industrial era, that was 211 00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:16,740 fine, the accountancy of the 90s, we could do that we can 212 00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:19,110 have people come into the office, and we'll look at the 213 00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:21,180 screens, that's going to be that's going to work, she's not 214 00:13:21,180 --> 00:13:24,540 going to work if we're trying to write agile pair programming 215 00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:29,280 Dojo things, that's just not going to work for us. So the 216 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,420 reason it was old and needed shaking up wasn't necessarily 217 00:13:33,450 --> 00:13:37,920 evil. But what that brought are structures that are now firmly 218 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,520 in place, and no one will question them at most 219 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,430 enterprises, and you're going to have like these as if they're 220 00:13:44,430 --> 00:13:48,150 coming from Moses scriptures or something we cannot touch the 221 00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:51,930 idea that we have this one department we cannot question 222 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,670 what this person is doing, we cannot discuss and like concrete 223 00:13:56,670 --> 00:14:00,540 things like what is Why do you have a culture officer? And why 224 00:14:00,540 --> 00:14:03,210 do you have someone in charge of engagement? What does engagement 225 00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:05,640 mean to you? For instance, I'll give you an example. You as an 226 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,670 organization, what does it mean? What engagement because if it is 227 00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:11,910 calculating your NPS score, then you should scrap it and stop 228 00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:14,550 doing that did this ridiculous you have an entire department of 229 00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:18,690 people that are buying NPS quarter measuring, and then you 230 00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:21,690 have an entire workforce? It's going off for God's sake again, 231 00:14:21,690 --> 00:14:24,330 why are we doing this? Nobody cares. And if they care, they 232 00:14:24,330 --> 00:14:28,530 punish me for it. So there's no real reason for us to even be 233 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,350 concerning ourselves with the topic of engagement. It's not 234 00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:33,540 that we don't want our employees engaged. It's just that we're 235 00:14:33,540 --> 00:14:37,230 going about everything the wrong way. Because finally coming back 236 00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:40,290 to we were operating on these old structures in the new 237 00:14:40,290 --> 00:14:43,560 structures that we have to go about everything a completely 238 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:44,340 different way. 239 00:14:45,149 --> 00:14:47,489 Jason Baum: How my gosh, as you're talking to so many things 240 00:14:47,489 --> 00:14:52,799 that are coming into my head, I love what you're saying. I bang 241 00:14:52,799 --> 00:14:56,099 my head sometimes because you said you're right. It needs to 242 00:14:56,099 --> 00:14:59,609 come from the employees right the organization as a whole is 243 00:14:59,609 --> 00:15:02,009 never going There's there's no change that's going to happen if 244 00:15:02,009 --> 00:15:07,919 you rely on the organization. Why is it and there are a few 245 00:15:07,919 --> 00:15:12,599 things I want to ask you. But why is it that there seems to be 246 00:15:12,659 --> 00:15:16,889 those who who recognize this, they recognize those issues and 247 00:15:16,889 --> 00:15:21,479 are like, screaming about it right for for change? Let's do 248 00:15:21,479 --> 00:15:25,019 this. Not only that, there's studies that prove, right? I 249 00:15:25,019 --> 00:15:28,439 mean, look at what I had read the 40%. There are so many 250 00:15:28,439 --> 00:15:33,239 studies that prove that if you improve culture, if you give 251 00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:37,379 more time, if you help four day workweeks, I've been saying this 252 00:15:37,379 --> 00:15:41,309 on the podcast, the the it's amazing, the productivity that 253 00:15:41,339 --> 00:15:45,659 the productivity improvement, so and even work from home. So I 254 00:15:45,659 --> 00:15:49,499 question these, these decisions are not necessarily based on 255 00:15:49,529 --> 00:15:52,349 hey, we're going to make money, because that's actually not 256 00:15:52,349 --> 00:15:55,469 proven. It's proven the opposite. So it's purely these 257 00:15:55,469 --> 00:16:00,359 are decisions based on I just want to, it's better for I don't 258 00:16:00,359 --> 00:16:03,899 know, maybe they want to be in the office, for example, I don't 259 00:16:03,899 --> 00:16:06,239 know why these decisions are being made. 260 00:16:06,449 --> 00:16:08,549 Duena Blomstrom: It's really important point, you've touched 261 00:16:08,549 --> 00:16:13,289 on something amazing, which is why if we have this much clarity 262 00:16:13,319 --> 00:16:17,699 on the numbers, and we all know, you can wake up any CEO of any 263 00:16:17,699 --> 00:16:22,169 bank atonium. And they'll tell you, I Yes. Active disengagement 264 00:16:22,169 --> 00:16:26,639 cost me 3 billion a year. I know that obviously for like everyone 265 00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:30,839 told me right, McKinsey told me must be true. So we they know, 266 00:16:30,839 --> 00:16:34,169 right? They know it costs money to have people that are in it 267 00:16:34,169 --> 00:16:37,649 stands to reason you've employed an army of people, some of which 268 00:16:37,649 --> 00:16:40,409 you don't even need by nobody's going to question who you do and 269 00:16:40,409 --> 00:16:43,529 do not need. And then you've mistreated them to the point 270 00:16:43,529 --> 00:16:47,369 that they're now half useful. So obviously, it costs you twice 271 00:16:47,369 --> 00:16:50,549 the money, if not more, that you're doing this, but it seems 272 00:16:50,549 --> 00:16:53,669 to be Why are you doing this? Why are you affording the luxury 273 00:16:53,789 --> 00:16:57,389 of having people this engage not at their best of their ability? 274 00:16:57,389 --> 00:17:00,449 Not high performing? What Why? Why is this happening to you as 275 00:17:00,689 --> 00:17:06,659 as an exec? Right? And I think the answer to that is, it's this 276 00:17:07,049 --> 00:17:11,999 complete paralysis at the level that people are at, where 277 00:17:12,089 --> 00:17:15,989 nobody's going to point when the emperor is butt naked. They're 278 00:17:15,989 --> 00:17:18,629 not going to be there's no psychological safety at the top. 279 00:17:18,629 --> 00:17:22,319 There's no teams at the top. So who all is going to say, right, 280 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,949 guys, this is bad. Let's scrap everything and think of 281 00:17:25,949 --> 00:17:28,979 everything. Let's look at the human diet. Let's question why 282 00:17:28,979 --> 00:17:32,429 we have 500. Let's question if we need HR, because maybe these 283 00:17:32,429 --> 00:17:35,849 guys in DevOps have gotten their heads around collaboration, team 284 00:17:35,849 --> 00:17:39,089 dynamics better, let's let them do it for a while. Or let's 285 00:17:39,089 --> 00:17:42,749 question why we have worked with to begin with why don't people 286 00:17:42,749 --> 00:17:46,739 just produce outcomes that we need out of them? Let's have 287 00:17:46,739 --> 00:17:50,549 those conversations, who all is supposed to have that? Who what 288 00:17:50,759 --> 00:17:55,079 exact thing do you know, that is a true team has a terrible Jira, 289 00:17:55,079 --> 00:17:57,869 but I don't care what has a board has a physical board, or 290 00:17:57,869 --> 00:18:02,519 at least a shared email list of backlogs and they work off of it 291 00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:06,449 to make their enterprise better. None. They don't exist. teams 292 00:18:06,479 --> 00:18:09,899 don't exist at the top. We have work groups at the top where 293 00:18:09,899 --> 00:18:13,319 every exec comes in and tells you how great they are. They do 294 00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:15,479 a first of impression management, which is the dark 295 00:18:15,479 --> 00:18:17,939 side of psychological safety. And they tell you how amazing 296 00:18:17,939 --> 00:18:20,849 they are. No one looks incompetent, no one looks like 297 00:18:20,849 --> 00:18:23,939 they made any mistakes. There's no one to blame or anything, 298 00:18:23,939 --> 00:18:26,759 everyone goes home is fine. There's no themes at the top 299 00:18:26,759 --> 00:18:30,149 they are not psychologically safe. No one can point when we 300 00:18:30,149 --> 00:18:33,899 have these fundamental issues. And one of those issues finally 301 00:18:33,899 --> 00:18:37,469 we get to it is, like I was saying earlier, the topic of 302 00:18:37,469 --> 00:18:41,939 people is now falling through a major crack that major crack is 303 00:18:41,939 --> 00:18:46,649 the difference between HR and IT. Unfortunately for HR, they, 304 00:18:47,189 --> 00:18:50,099 for whatever reason, I can't quite comprehend what happened 305 00:18:50,099 --> 00:18:52,319 to them. It's tragedy but probably think about it. They 306 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:56,819 lost the ability of advocating and helping people in the 307 00:18:56,819 --> 00:19:01,289 enterprise they have now reduced themselves I should say this I 308 00:19:01,289 --> 00:19:05,459 apologize to anyone listening to this who is HR and is woke and 309 00:19:05,489 --> 00:19:08,639 is a superhero and is trying really hard is no you guys it's 310 00:19:08,639 --> 00:19:11,939 everyone else. But the everyone else has kind of shortened 311 00:19:11,939 --> 00:19:15,749 themselves to only do illegal things to only employ and 312 00:19:15,749 --> 00:19:19,289 unemployed people and send them a paper at home. It's an admin 313 00:19:19,289 --> 00:19:22,859 job one we will replace with machines tomorrow. We don't need 314 00:19:22,859 --> 00:19:25,889 you to do that. We need you to sit next to the CEO and tell him 315 00:19:25,889 --> 00:19:29,549 be counselor Troy and go like ah, I read the mind of these 316 00:19:29,549 --> 00:19:33,209 developers what they really need is another Dodger, that and 317 00:19:33,209 --> 00:19:38,399 Africa. That's okay, it can't be that. It you know who is doing 318 00:19:38,399 --> 00:19:41,639 that job these days. We make software that would help them 319 00:19:41,639 --> 00:19:44,789 you think when we made our software we thought silly years 320 00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:48,059 ago, we thought when we produce this and we let it out and we 321 00:19:48,059 --> 00:19:51,089 tell the world and Amy Edmondson has seen it and it measures 322 00:19:51,089 --> 00:19:52,769 psychological safety and he brings all this to the 323 00:19:52,769 --> 00:19:57,479 enterprise. People are gonna love it what all HR breaking out 324 00:19:57,479 --> 00:20:00,959 doors down in all of our clients. asked me how many of 325 00:20:00,959 --> 00:20:04,799 them started from an HR perspective, it's a negligible 326 00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:09,599 amount. The vast majority of our of our of our of our clients are 327 00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:13,829 CTOs and CEOs who went like, Okay, I've ignored this people 328 00:20:13,829 --> 00:20:16,889 problem long enough, if I really want to be producing these KPIs, 329 00:20:17,159 --> 00:20:19,679 I'm gonna have to make these people have psychological safety 330 00:20:19,679 --> 00:20:23,129 have teams have an ability to work from anywhere, not because 331 00:20:23,129 --> 00:20:26,129 I like them a lot more, or I'm an advocate, but because I'm 332 00:20:26,129 --> 00:20:28,289 trying to make this thing happen, and nobody else is 333 00:20:28,289 --> 00:20:31,439 coming to help me. So our clients are people who just need 334 00:20:31,469 --> 00:20:35,969 the human bit to work, which is dramatic, it should be HR only 335 00:20:35,969 --> 00:20:39,569 if anything, we are a nuisance to HR, anytime we show up, they 336 00:20:39,569 --> 00:20:44,009 can immediately tell that the topic we're fixing is so deep, 337 00:20:44,069 --> 00:20:46,679 and it's so big that it was throw up all the other 338 00:20:46,679 --> 00:20:50,099 organizational issues, and they immediately dislike us and they 339 00:20:50,099 --> 00:20:52,769 would like us to go away and come back with an NPS score 340 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:53,549 measure. 341 00:20:53,910 --> 00:20:55,050 Jason Baum: Yeah, the shutdown. 342 00:20:58,050 --> 00:21:00,750 Ad: Hey, humans of DevOps, it's Nixon here from DevOps 343 00:21:00,750 --> 00:21:03,750 Institute. I'm dropping by to share how you can scale up and 344 00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:05,970 advance your career with the DevOps Institute premium 345 00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:08,820 membership. Our goal is to empower you to gain the edge you 346 00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:11,850 need to advance your DevOps skills, knowledge, ideas, and 347 00:21:11,850 --> 00:21:15,900 learning. A premium membership gives you all access to what 348 00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:19,560 DevOps Institute has to offer, how does getting 30% off all 349 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,310 certification exams? What about having access to a tool that can 350 00:21:23,310 --> 00:21:26,220 Assess your team's DevOps capabilities, and if that wasn't 351 00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:29,190 enough, members can also read our entire library of skill 352 00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:32,460 books to support you during your DevOps journey. Get started 353 00:21:32,460 --> 00:21:35,070 today for the price of a cup of coffee by going to DevOps 354 00:21:35,070 --> 00:21:39,300 institute.com/membership. Head to the link in the episode 355 00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:42,300 description to receive 20% off your DevOps Institute premium 356 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:42,810 membership. 357 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,970 Jason Baum: Yeah, it's, you know, I do have mixed feelings 358 00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:55,230 here. Because I don't want to totally call out HR as a, as a 359 00:21:55,230 --> 00:21:58,350 field. However, I will say like when you're talking about 360 00:21:58,350 --> 00:22:02,640 psychological safety, you know, my wife, and I always joke, it's 361 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,650 like, you have HR and they always tell you, Oh, you have a 362 00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:08,280 problem, go talk to HR, go talk to HR, you're like, I'm talking 363 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,690 to HR there. That's the mouthpiece of the company, their 364 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,010 their best interest, a, like you said is don't sue us, right? I 365 00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:21,030 mean, that's their vested interest is protection of the 366 00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:25,890 company, and not necessarily the individual. And so how do you 367 00:22:25,890 --> 00:22:29,010 feel set, you don't feel safe? That's my site that's not 368 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:34,290 endorsing psychological safety. So who then do you turn to who 369 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,400 can you trust? How do you build that trust? Where's it coming 370 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,880 from? Is it coming from DevOps? Is it coming from your team, 371 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,510 hopefully, your manager, they're the ones have to push it 372 00:22:45,510 --> 00:22:49,770 through, right? But then you have the people and I, and some 373 00:22:49,770 --> 00:22:52,590 of them, they can be great people, but it's like, for 374 00:22:52,590 --> 00:22:56,880 whatever reason, like you said, they're so turned off to the 375 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,560 idea of potential change. Or it's just like, that's not your 376 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,790 job. And it's no one's job, right? It's it's never anyone's 377 00:23:05,790 --> 00:23:09,930 job. We need to do this. Don't focus on that that stuff. 378 00:23:10,590 --> 00:23:12,720 That's, that's a waste of time. 379 00:23:13,770 --> 00:23:15,690 Duena Blomstrom: Yeah, no, I like I love this question, 380 00:23:15,690 --> 00:23:18,210 because it touches on so many things. And I think your 381 00:23:18,210 --> 00:23:22,440 comment, not a question, but I think it's super important that 382 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,150 we all go at the very minimum, we all go yes. For all our sins. 383 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,690 If these are things that are making up human that we have 384 00:23:30,690 --> 00:23:34,290 some, what do we do about it? And by the way, there's 385 00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:37,560 organizational level human that. And then there's team level 386 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,800 human that and one of the last ones that I always caught to my 387 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,370 mind is when teams go, one of the things that create more that 388 00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:47,130 is when teams go, they blame the organization. So like, they'll 389 00:23:47,130 --> 00:23:51,180 come fix it. This is known as this is them. That alone creates 390 00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:55,020 human that because no a lot of this work is and should be at 391 00:23:55,020 --> 00:23:58,290 your level. And I'm a humongous advocate that if we if we agree, 392 00:23:58,290 --> 00:24:00,960 yes, we have human that, then we have to do something about doing 393 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,680 something about it has to be distributed at the team level. 394 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,980 That's the answer with the answer. It is not your managers, 395 00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:12,540 not your leadership team, not your programs that are led by I 396 00:24:12,540 --> 00:24:15,660 don't even care about the HR, not HR conversation now. And 397 00:24:15,660 --> 00:24:18,810 again, for the record, there are amazing HR people out there, 398 00:24:18,810 --> 00:24:22,440 undoubtedly, obviously, just the vast majority of them have let 399 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:28,800 themselves be not utilized that the best is what. But again, 400 00:24:28,830 --> 00:24:32,610 this is not about HR or not HR, this isn't too big of a job for 401 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,420 any magically to even if HR retain their ability to really 402 00:24:36,450 --> 00:24:39,690 kill it and do all these things, they would still not be the ones 403 00:24:39,690 --> 00:24:44,070 to have to run a fixing of the human that just because it is 404 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:46,740 too big at this point. So at this point, the only thing we 405 00:24:46,740 --> 00:24:50,130 can do with all of these things we haven't done is to distribute 406 00:24:50,130 --> 00:24:54,870 them to give them to the team to say to the team, look, I need 407 00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:57,930 your help. I know you we've been telling you you need to write 408 00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:00,750 this code and these are your tickets, but I clean some of 409 00:25:00,750 --> 00:25:03,150 your schedule. That's what indeed servant leadership can do 410 00:25:03,150 --> 00:25:05,970 for them. And that's what a good scrum master will do or a 411 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:08,910 product owner or whoever they're gonna write follow better. And 412 00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:11,580 everyone completely connects to that. The problem is everyone 413 00:25:11,580 --> 00:25:16,740 has overflowing agendas, is being the principles of agile 414 00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:19,920 that say, you have personal responsibility, you grab this 415 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,400 ticket if you know you can't afford the time frame and so on. 416 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,090 So those agencies don't exist, people don't feel empowered to 417 00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:30,600 say no, I have way too much on my plate. And I want to have a 418 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,620 team action with you guys and and understand about your kids, 419 00:25:34,620 --> 00:25:38,250 I can't take this other coding ticket. People don't do that. 420 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,950 They're not empowered, the nobody makes time for them. So 421 00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:43,890 they're overwhelmed. So they have what I call human work 422 00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:47,940 resistance. They immediately immediately go even people 423 00:25:47,970 --> 00:25:51,570 people get on our on our product. All developers have a 424 00:25:51,570 --> 00:25:57,000 first No, not for me, this is not what they hired me for. I am 425 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,110 not a psychologist, I don't know what they want. I am not put 426 00:26:01,110 --> 00:26:04,020 here to talk about AI, me, you're asking me to talk about 427 00:26:04,020 --> 00:26:06,750 feelings. I am not the guy to be talking about this. So there's a 428 00:26:06,750 --> 00:26:11,760 lot of that plus, developers are not we everyone in the workplace 429 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,740 has spent a good 1020 30 years, being asked to come in and be 430 00:26:16,770 --> 00:26:21,060 professional tenant of being professional is number one thing 431 00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:24,450 is do not have any emotion. Do not bring your personal life 432 00:26:24,450 --> 00:26:28,470 over here. Do not be a human to sit here and write code or 433 00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:30,930 answer the phone, whatever it is that we hired before. So now 434 00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:33,630 we're telling them sorry about that, that was kind of dumb, 435 00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:36,060 looking at these guys that are doing it right? Could you be 436 00:26:36,060 --> 00:26:38,370 doing some of the other stuff where you recognize your 437 00:26:38,370 --> 00:26:40,950 emotions and understand the emotions of others and work with 438 00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:43,230 them better? Could you be doing that? But could you also be 439 00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:46,290 doing some other hours because these hours that I'm paying you 440 00:26:46,290 --> 00:26:49,500 for you still have to finish these tasks. That's what where 441 00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:50,160 we're at today. 442 00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:56,190 Jason Baum: It's I think I've referenced this show on on this 443 00:26:56,190 --> 00:27:04,410 podcast, but there's a show on Apple called severance. And it's 444 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:11,940 about how they split the human mind, essentially. So that there 445 00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:18,240 is your work self. And then you have no memories of your home of 446 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,690 your personal life when you're at work. And then there's 447 00:27:21,690 --> 00:27:26,580 another self that is your home life with no memories of work. 448 00:27:26,610 --> 00:27:29,940 So you have no idea what's going on your work life exists in work 449 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:34,170 only your brain you never leave, and then your home, you'll never 450 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,680 leave. So it's so fascinating, because that just the concept 451 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,000 alone of the show is brilliant. 452 00:27:39,869 --> 00:27:42,449 Duena Blomstrom: I can't wait to go check it out. It's a good 453 00:27:42,449 --> 00:27:45,119 comment, depending on how they want to how they took it. But 454 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:45,419 yeah, 455 00:27:45,450 --> 00:27:48,720 Jason Baum: right. And it's, it's just kind of what you're 456 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,860 talking about. It's like for whatever reason, that the norm, 457 00:27:52,860 --> 00:27:56,640 right? Yeah, you are, you're your professional self. And then 458 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,430 you're, you're everything else your personal and you have to 459 00:27:59,430 --> 00:28:02,100 separate them. And it's like, well, it's not as easy as just 460 00:28:02,310 --> 00:28:05,340 turning off who you are. When you're at work. I've always I 461 00:28:05,340 --> 00:28:08,790 always struggled with it. Now it's great. But it has because 462 00:28:08,790 --> 00:28:10,110 it's more accepted. 463 00:28:10,619 --> 00:28:13,229 Duena Blomstrom: No one should have done, the reality of it is 464 00:28:13,559 --> 00:28:18,209 no one should have presumed we only pay people for physical 465 00:28:18,209 --> 00:28:23,759 output. If we don't, we always did pay them for I mean, you 466 00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:27,629 know, kind of if you take with a grain of salt, the incredible 467 00:28:28,139 --> 00:28:32,999 shambles, that performance appraisals of all kinds are 468 00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:36,989 right. And if you kind of in from that if you ignore the fact 469 00:28:36,989 --> 00:28:41,159 that the reality of it is because we didn't ask them to be 470 00:28:41,159 --> 00:28:44,249 human at work, we don't pay them for any of the human work. So 471 00:28:44,249 --> 00:28:46,559 that's the second part of the resistance when people finally 472 00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:48,809 go like, Oh my God, this could make my life better. But wait a 473 00:28:48,809 --> 00:28:50,879 minute, do I really want to do this as an extracurricular 474 00:28:50,879 --> 00:28:53,399 activity? Because no one is paying me for this stuff, right? 475 00:28:53,459 --> 00:28:56,759 Time is valuable. Until that time, we go back and go like, 476 00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:59,729 right, this was wrong, we're really sorry. He took half your 477 00:28:59,729 --> 00:29:02,819 time on your team stuff, and then half your time on your work 478 00:29:02,819 --> 00:29:05,669 stuff. And here's all your money. And the more time you 479 00:29:05,669 --> 00:29:08,249 spend learning, the more we pay you, the more time you spend 480 00:29:08,249 --> 00:29:10,829 considering the emotions of your teammates, and that translates 481 00:29:10,829 --> 00:29:13,709 into psychological safety and collaboration, the more we pay 482 00:29:13,709 --> 00:29:17,189 you, that's what we need to get to and the gap between not even 483 00:29:17,189 --> 00:29:19,859 admitting we have a problem to changing the way we work 484 00:29:19,859 --> 00:29:22,199 completely. And I don't mean whether it comes to the office 485 00:29:22,199 --> 00:29:27,059 or not. But the structures in which we work is huge. But the 486 00:29:27,089 --> 00:29:31,979 show you're describing is exactly what we have copious 487 00:29:31,979 --> 00:29:35,009 copiously ridiculously expected out of people. So far, it was 488 00:29:35,009 --> 00:29:38,909 never viable. But we'll never stop to it wasn't clear how 489 00:29:38,909 --> 00:29:43,109 unviable it was, in the old world when you didn't have a 490 00:29:43,109 --> 00:29:46,319 choice when you didn't have this extreme need for speed and 491 00:29:46,319 --> 00:29:50,489 collaboration. It is blatantly clear today. And if we want it 492 00:29:50,489 --> 00:29:54,809 solved, we have to help our people start to do this work for 493 00:29:54,809 --> 00:29:55,199 us. 494 00:29:56,609 --> 00:29:59,969 Jason Baum: And we didn't I don't even know if we really do 495 00:29:59,999 --> 00:30:02,939 touched on psychological safety that much. And this covered I 496 00:30:02,939 --> 00:30:07,319 mean, we did we didn't I'm not going to necessarily ask you to 497 00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:12,779 define it, because I think we defined it early on. But what is 498 00:30:12,779 --> 00:30:15,509 the difference between? Or is there a difference between 499 00:30:15,509 --> 00:30:19,109 psychological safety and trust? And then how do you build it 500 00:30:19,229 --> 00:30:20,789 amongst your teams? 501 00:30:21,810 --> 00:30:23,340 Duena Blomstrom: Love that question. Absolutely. And all 502 00:30:23,340 --> 00:30:25,440 that was the most all encompassing of questions are 503 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,520 tried to be successful, not always successful. definition 504 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,670 wise, and you touched on it initially, it's been studied by 505 00:30:32,670 --> 00:30:35,370 other academics, but the person has done most work on it has 506 00:30:35,370 --> 00:30:39,420 been Amy Edmondson, and she has this amazing body of research, 507 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,900 what but that research comes from the medical field and the 508 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:46,230 aviation field. And it wasn't until like you said, Google, 509 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,740 published project is total that the term psychological safety 510 00:30:49,740 --> 00:30:52,830 kind of entered the vocabulary of the DevOps community and 511 00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:56,790 became a thing to the business world through the IT side of 512 00:30:56,790 --> 00:31:02,130 things. So the definition that she uses, and it's quite clear 513 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,240 is, psychological safety is a state in which you are not 514 00:31:06,270 --> 00:31:10,290 afraid to take interpersonal risks in your team. And it 515 00:31:10,290 --> 00:31:13,860 sounds like so what if you are afraid of risks and so on, is 516 00:31:13,890 --> 00:31:16,800 the humongous difference between a team that is psychologically 517 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,490 safe, and one that isn't, is their ability to truly bring 518 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,290 themselves to work and be their authentic selves, they can raise 519 00:31:25,290 --> 00:31:28,230 points, they always speak up, they're never afraid to say 520 00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:31,440 what's on their mind. And all of that, obviously just translate 521 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,630 into a lot better outcomes. It's quite that simple. We took that 522 00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:40,230 definition and kind of worked on it quite a lot over the last few 523 00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:42,210 years, because this is all we do. If people don't like 524 00:31:42,210 --> 00:31:45,420 psychological safety, this is our day job, right? So we very 525 00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:48,690 early on workout, right? We have loads of human Dad, how are we 526 00:31:48,690 --> 00:31:51,420 going to fix it, we need something that fixes it quick. 527 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,600 And if you look at Google's findings, in project I started 528 00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:57,270 psychological safety is at the top. And then there are four 529 00:31:57,270 --> 00:32:00,570 other topics that they found are crucial if teams want to 530 00:32:00,570 --> 00:32:04,110 succeed, right? And those are dependability. And we thought to 531 00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:07,260 ourselves, when making software, how is our software going to 532 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,650 affect the dependent dependability of any other 533 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,560 software shop? No chance, we don't even know what they're 534 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,220 measuring half of them? No, 90% of them are not measuring 535 00:32:17,220 --> 00:32:20,970 anything anyways. And it just depends on how they're doing it. 536 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,550 So we can't really touch that, then structure and clarity, 537 00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:27,570 which is a huge one is probably the crux of why organizations 538 00:32:27,570 --> 00:32:32,400 are is as they are, which essentially just says, Are these 539 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,550 people crystal clear whether there is or not? And that 540 00:32:35,550 --> 00:32:40,560 question is no, for most teams. So it's also equally not 541 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,720 something we could have affected. So we were like, we 542 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,000 completely get how important it is the only thing the 543 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,250 organization needs to give you other than money and resources. 544 00:32:47,550 --> 00:32:50,370 But you know what, we can't help with that? Because that's a very 545 00:32:50,370 --> 00:32:54,630 organizational thing. And then the other two topics are purpose 546 00:32:54,660 --> 00:32:58,560 and impact. Do you feel as a team that you have a purpose? 547 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,410 And do you feel you're making an impact, great things, but we 548 00:33:01,410 --> 00:33:04,320 couldn't really directly affect those. That's why we've really 549 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,780 laser focused on psychological safety, when like, right, there 550 00:33:06,780 --> 00:33:10,740 is one thing is a team dynamic. And we can then separate it into 551 00:33:10,740 --> 00:33:14,190 behaviors and start working on each of those behaviors, then we 552 00:33:14,190 --> 00:33:16,950 have an empowered team that can do this for themselves, we no 553 00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:20,340 longer throw it on the manager, we no longer expect someone to 554 00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:25,470 modal vulnerability, which is, you know, I sound overly 555 00:33:25,470 --> 00:33:28,470 critical of that, because it's nice to have in the vernacular. 556 00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:33,810 But the next step above that has to be No, everyone has to do 557 00:33:33,810 --> 00:33:36,930 things and those things are recognized my feelings, 558 00:33:36,930 --> 00:33:40,530 recognize my behavior, recognize the behavior of the people 559 00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:44,520 around me, and together want to work to change those things for 560 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,800 the better. That is literally your only answer. And it's 561 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,250 doable. If you start splitting it, it's absolutely doable. What 562 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,330 stops us has been a lack of tools, things like the things 563 00:33:54,330 --> 00:33:57,270 we're making are very, very new. To be fair, it didn't exist 564 00:33:57,270 --> 00:33:59,250 whatsoever. So even if you wanted to measure psychological 565 00:33:59,250 --> 00:34:02,340 safety, you'd be like, Oh, I think we have some of it. People 566 00:34:02,340 --> 00:34:03,450 say they kind of do 567 00:34:03,630 --> 00:34:05,520 Jason Baum: that. Yeah, you I mean, you were critical of the 568 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,120 NPS score. What are Are there tools to measure psychological 569 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:09,420 safety? 570 00:34:09,450 --> 00:34:11,220 Duena Blomstrom: Well, you know, it's really difficult for me to 571 00:34:11,220 --> 00:34:14,010 talk about because I really hate to sounding salesy, because we 572 00:34:14,010 --> 00:34:18,630 make it but when we went to the market to try and make a tool to 573 00:34:18,660 --> 00:34:23,100 measure it, we didn't find anything. There was Amy's 574 00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:26,820 question. Uh, there was a sportive, obviously, the Spotify 575 00:34:26,820 --> 00:34:30,300 questions. And then there were, there was it other than that 576 00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:34,680 there were engagement surveys completely not the thing that we 577 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,710 needed at all. And then there were, you know, kind of 578 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,160 performance surveys and KPI measurements and stuff, none of 579 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,760 which were quite what we wanted. And when we went to the market, 580 00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:48,660 the reason we looked is because I thought let's find what we the 581 00:34:48,660 --> 00:34:52,590 many psychological safety measuring tours and incorporate 582 00:34:52,590 --> 00:34:56,400 them into a platform. To my surprise, there were no many 583 00:34:56,430 --> 00:34:59,490 there were no none. So we had to make it from scratch. But the 584 00:34:59,490 --> 00:35:03,990 changes we hardware. What is it? Right? And it's the question 585 00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:06,810 we're having this right now. What is it really, I mean, we 586 00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:09,060 all get it instinctively. Right? As I was saying, we have a 587 00:35:09,060 --> 00:35:11,460 different definition. As people know, tech, it's that moment 588 00:35:11,460 --> 00:35:14,730 that we all can relate to. When we were in a team, when we were 589 00:35:14,730 --> 00:35:18,690 literally making magic, we were going fast. Everyone knew what 590 00:35:18,690 --> 00:35:22,530 what everyone was at the best of their abilities. No one ever 591 00:35:22,530 --> 00:35:25,620 didn't say something, there were no awkward, there may have been 592 00:35:25,620 --> 00:35:28,170 awkward moments, we were embracing them. People were 593 00:35:28,170 --> 00:35:31,890 saying freely when they something was wrong. We all know 594 00:35:32,010 --> 00:35:35,880 what it's like to be in a magical psychological safety. 595 00:35:36,090 --> 00:35:38,460 But how rare is that? And some people have to think all the way 596 00:35:38,460 --> 00:35:42,960 back to kindergarten to remember one of those. And so if we all 597 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,890 know that, what is it though, we cannot measure my developers, 598 00:35:46,890 --> 00:35:50,640 we're like, okay, but we got we need titles for these, like, for 599 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,820 the you know, we're under the database, we cannot just call it 600 00:35:53,820 --> 00:35:59,040 the magical thing we can kind of feel so to, to, to actually 601 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,830 define our algorithm, we had to undertake a very serious piece 602 00:36:01,830 --> 00:36:04,170 of research to separate the behaviors in psychological 603 00:36:04,170 --> 00:36:06,960 safety. And we ended up with six things that we're mentioning 604 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,690 today, which are is that inflexible? Is the team 605 00:36:09,690 --> 00:36:12,330 resilient? Because they can be flexible, but break over time? 606 00:36:12,660 --> 00:36:16,830 Is the team engaged? And our engagement means is the team 607 00:36:16,830 --> 00:36:21,120 emotionally connected? not engaged in PS code? Like but do 608 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,630 they know each other's kids names? Do they? Are they aware 609 00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:27,390 that this? Do they care about this other guy or not? That's 610 00:36:27,390 --> 00:36:31,050 engagement in the team? And not? Would they recommend the 611 00:36:31,050 --> 00:36:34,710 manager? Nobody cares? And then we measure? are they learning 612 00:36:34,710 --> 00:36:37,320 together? Are they courageous? And are they speaking up and 613 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,130 those things those each of those behaviors, you can work on it 614 00:36:41,130 --> 00:36:43,590 and you should work on it. And so we've created essentially 615 00:36:43,590 --> 00:36:47,430 what is like a CBT for teams, if that makes sense. So now that 616 00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:50,400 you know how you're doing, and you've seen it in this 617 00:36:50,430 --> 00:36:52,200 particular this particular behavior is where you have 618 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,590 issues, let's work on it together, just us at this level, 619 00:36:55,620 --> 00:36:58,650 at this bubble level. And the fact that you see the data and 620 00:36:58,650 --> 00:37:02,070 the fact that you work on your team health together is 621 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,550 transformational. Those same people that were telling us, not 622 00:37:05,550 --> 00:37:07,440 my job, I don't have the time for this, I'm not a 623 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,440 psychologist, those same people you give them some time with 624 00:37:10,470 --> 00:37:12,630 with the tool and the right empowerment and you tell them 625 00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:15,780 they can do it. They are transformed. They ask can I do 626 00:37:15,780 --> 00:37:18,270 more? Can I do more team actions? Can I spend more time 627 00:37:18,270 --> 00:37:21,060 with my colleagues, because they see the designs of that it's 628 00:37:21,060 --> 00:37:23,490 like they're happier, they do better one of the code is 629 00:37:23,490 --> 00:37:27,840 cleaner, they produce things faster. So they know that that 630 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,330 transformation and they take up to it like you wouldn't believe 631 00:37:30,330 --> 00:37:33,840 it. I've seen developers cry a bit. I've seen people go, Oh, my 632 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,740 God, like, we don't need to wait for the organization to come fix 633 00:37:37,740 --> 00:37:40,950 us. We don't need to wait for HR to come fix us, we can and 634 00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:43,530 should do this thing ourselves. And I think that's the key 635 00:37:43,530 --> 00:37:46,080 there. It doesn't have to be only all tool or only 636 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,630 psychological safety. There are other bits that need working on 637 00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:51,900 right, the ability of human beings to have self respect 638 00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:55,920 enough to be self caring, or making sure that they have the 639 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,740 space to think of their well being fine. All those things 640 00:37:58,740 --> 00:38:02,190 need working on. But you can work on them. T Mobile, that is 641 00:38:02,190 --> 00:38:05,400 what I'm saying that we need to distribute it and distributed 642 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:05,910 fast. 643 00:38:06,570 --> 00:38:08,820 Jason Baum: It's amazing what happens when you can invest in 644 00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:11,730 the employee, right, and the employee experience and their 645 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,790 personal psychological safety and making sure that they can 646 00:38:14,790 --> 00:38:18,960 produce and be comfortable in the team and like the team. 647 00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:21,690 Gosh, that sounds nice, right? I mean, it's 648 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,200 Duena Blomstrom: fun or anything good happening. 649 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,570 Jason Baum: You know, I gotta say, this is just me just just 650 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,320 like putting myself outside a little bit. I'm new, relatively 651 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,700 new to the tech industry. You know, this is in the second 652 00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:43,830 year. And I have to say how much I love it. Because ironically, 653 00:38:44,250 --> 00:38:48,810 the tech industry I feel is becoming the most progressive 654 00:38:49,260 --> 00:38:54,360 towards the human. And I think that's so at first it's there's 655 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,050 so much irony in that. But it's it's amazing, and it is 656 00:38:58,050 --> 00:38:58,890 refreshing. 657 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,070 Duena Blomstrom: It is there's, you're right, that is the irony 658 00:39:02,070 --> 00:39:07,830 of it. But the reason for that is what should keep execs awake 659 00:39:07,860 --> 00:39:14,280 is does not work any other way. We cannot have HR if we don't do 660 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,910 this paperwork, we cannot make things fast. If we don't do this 661 00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:21,660 paperwork, we cannot do this paperwork just by kind of 662 00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:24,450 sending a program or asking people to look at a TEDTalk 663 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,790 these are a ticket that has to exist in everyone's like, 664 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:35,760 exactly what we line every week every team should have what in 665 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,330 the hell are they doing about x behavior? Like, if you really 666 00:39:39,330 --> 00:39:42,360 want to know why your code wants some type of way, then you need 667 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,900 to have your your JIRA in a retro on this side. And your 668 00:39:45,900 --> 00:39:49,170 water had happened with the human work on this other side. 669 00:39:49,170 --> 00:39:51,690 So you can kind of start seeing patterns and work on the 670 00:39:51,690 --> 00:39:56,190 behavior and people want to they just haven't been given the 671 00:39:56,190 --> 00:39:59,970 tools to do that and the permission to do that. Yeah, 672 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:00,450 Yeah, 673 00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:04,680 Jason Baum: I think we could talk about this all day. I love 674 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,380 talking to you doing it. It's it's very refreshing to hear you 675 00:40:07,380 --> 00:40:12,420 speak. And and the authenticity just comes out. I think you you 676 00:40:12,420 --> 00:40:17,010 are very passionate about this topic and and I think I would 677 00:40:17,010 --> 00:40:20,220 love to talk to you and continue the conversation and have you 678 00:40:20,220 --> 00:40:23,550 back because I think we covered maybe one of my questions and we 679 00:40:23,550 --> 00:40:26,490 just ended up just going on our on our own here in this 680 00:40:26,490 --> 00:40:30,300 conversation. But it was it was wonderful and so great to have 681 00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:31,260 you as a guest. 682 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:33,630 Duena Blomstrom: Thank you so much. It was a meeting. You're 683 00:40:33,630 --> 00:40:36,240 right, we have it always feels this is the size of the human 684 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:38,040 that it always feels unfinished. 685 00:40:39,660 --> 00:40:43,860 Jason Baum: Because it is right. Okay, so we always finish the 686 00:40:43,860 --> 00:40:49,290 podcast by asking a more personal question. So here's 687 00:40:49,290 --> 00:40:52,530 yours. If you could be remembered for one thing, what 688 00:40:52,530 --> 00:40:53,160 would it be? 689 00:40:55,980 --> 00:40:59,850 Duena Blomstrom: Wow. It's, you said that we could edit if we 690 00:40:59,850 --> 00:41:00,300 wanted to. 691 00:41:02,670 --> 00:41:05,160 Jason Baum: Yeah, there's no right answers just however you 692 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:05,610 feel. 693 00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:09,030 Duena Blomstrom: But I would have loved to have believed that 694 00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:12,660 I have made some type of difference in terms of people 695 00:41:12,660 --> 00:41:18,900 getting a little less of the dread and a little less of my 696 00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:22,080 life is not worth it, if that makes sense. So I would just 697 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,140 hope that there are some developers somewhere, I don't 698 00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:29,370 want them to ever have seen my face or read my book or heard 699 00:41:29,370 --> 00:41:33,120 about me whatsoever, or that exactly. I just want us to 700 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,750 finally get to a place where we have we are consistently doing 701 00:41:36,750 --> 00:41:40,560 human work at every level of the organization. And it's a natural 702 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,440 normal part of our vernacular, if I could have done anything to 703 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,530 move that needle. That would have been amazing. 704 00:41:47,250 --> 00:41:51,090 Jason Baum: I love it. I think we are 100% on the same page 705 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,330 with all this, obviously, the humans of DevOps, this is what 706 00:41:54,330 --> 00:41:59,220 we're all about. And yeah, like I said, I think I could listen 707 00:41:59,220 --> 00:42:01,500 to you speak all day. So well, happy 708 00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:03,450 Duena Blomstrom: to come back and be up in arms about this 709 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,960 anytime you like, because I feel like we have this lifting work. 710 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,360 We're going to be doing almost the same conversations, 711 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,900 hopefully just as annoyed. Because the day we don't, we're 712 00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:15,330 not annoyed anymore. We don't care enough anymore. So I'm 713 00:42:16,140 --> 00:42:17,640 happy to come back anytime you like. 714 00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:19,440 Jason Baum: Awesome. Thank you so much. Join it, it was 715 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,580 absolute pleasure. And thank you for listening to this episode of 716 00:42:23,580 --> 00:42:26,910 the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode 717 00:42:26,910 --> 00:42:29,970 the same way I always do, encouraging you to become a 718 00:42:29,970 --> 00:42:32,940 member of DevOps Institute to get access to even more great 719 00:42:32,940 --> 00:42:36,420 resources just like this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay 720 00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:39,810 healthy, and most of all, stay human, live long and prosper. 721 00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:43,830 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 722 00:42:43,830 --> 00:42:47,370 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 723 00:42:47,370 --> 00:42:50,730 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 724 00:42:50,730 --> 00:42:54,180 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 725 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:55,230 You belong