1 00:00:03,389 --> 00:00:06,269 Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a 2 00:00:06,269 --> 00:00:09,929 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,959 --> 00:00:14,309 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework. 4 00:00:17,100 --> 00:00:20,610 AB Walker: I feel like DevOps has diversity, equity inclusion, 5 00:00:20,970 --> 00:00:24,690 theoretically at its core, but not necessarily actively at its 6 00:00:24,690 --> 00:00:28,890 core. Yeah, it's not. It wasn't the first thing that you thought 7 00:00:28,890 --> 00:00:33,390 of when, when Jean Kim wrote, you know, Phoenix Project that 8 00:00:33,390 --> 00:00:34,980 they were they were talking about automation, they're 9 00:00:34,980 --> 00:00:38,280 talking about all sorts of things. But talking about being 10 00:00:38,310 --> 00:00:44,040 an inclusive, accepting, radically open environment so 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,730 that people can feel safe and feel productive in their own 12 00:00:47,730 --> 00:00:51,390 workspace and in their own homes. That's That's it. That's, 13 00:00:51,420 --> 00:00:52,290 that's the center. 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,700 Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member 15 00:00:56,700 --> 00:01:01,470 experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps 16 00:01:01,470 --> 00:01:05,670 podcast. Welcome back. I hope you've had a wonderful few 17 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:11,790 weeks, we got to enjoy July 4 here in the United States. And 18 00:01:11,790 --> 00:01:15,840 it's just been a celebration of the summer. What I would like to 19 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,340 talk about today actually doesn't pertain to July at all. 20 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,240 We're kind of going back in time, a little bit to June. Last 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:29,010 month, June was pride month in the United States. It's a chance 22 00:01:29,010 --> 00:01:32,850 for members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and 23 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:39,540 intersex LGBTQ i plus community to be proud and visible. In a 24 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:44,100 world where it's been difficult to be, let's face it. It's also 25 00:01:44,100 --> 00:01:49,380 a chance for everyone who doesn't identify as LGBTQ i plus 26 00:01:49,650 --> 00:01:54,060 to support, celebrate and fight along with their fellow citizens 27 00:01:54,210 --> 00:01:58,860 for Equity and Inclusion, at home, in society and in their 28 00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:03,240 workplaces. If you've been paying attention at all, there 29 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:09,210 have been some major wins for the LGBTQ plus community. Hard 30 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:14,040 because there's been so many losses too. But there was one 31 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:20,040 major win on June 15, when President Biden, the President 32 00:02:20,070 --> 00:02:23,520 of the United States of America, I mean, this is a big deal 33 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:30,120 signed a historic executive order to advance LGBTQI plus 34 00:02:30,510 --> 00:02:36,510 equality. In this executive order, they address 35 00:02:36,510 --> 00:02:39,990 discriminatory legislative attacks against the community, 36 00:02:40,590 --> 00:02:45,480 against their children, against their families, directing at key 37 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:50,430 agencies to protect their families, and children. The 38 00:02:50,460 --> 00:02:53,760 executive order prevents so called Conversion therapy with 39 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,150 this historic initiative to protect children from the 40 00:02:57,150 --> 00:03:01,260 harmful practice. It safeguards health care and programs 41 00:03:01,260 --> 00:03:05,700 designed to prevent youth suicide, and it supports LGBTQI 42 00:03:05,700 --> 00:03:09,000 plus children and families by launching a new initiative to 43 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,680 protect foster youth prevent homelessness, and improve access 44 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:18,570 to federal programs. Now, all that being said, we have a long 45 00:03:18,570 --> 00:03:22,590 way to go, especially pertaining to the workforce, which is what 46 00:03:22,590 --> 00:03:25,500 we're going to talk about today. Goodness, we could talk about so 47 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:28,650 much more, but today we're going to talk about the workforce. 48 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,140 According to a recent survey, 65% of non binary individuals 49 00:03:34,140 --> 00:03:39,060 experienced discrimination at work. Only 46% said they felt 50 00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:45,120 safe and a mere 38% felt like they belonged. The 51 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,170 dissatisfaction among LGBTQI plus respondents with the 52 00:03:49,170 --> 00:03:56,040 current state of LGBTQI inclusion is clear. 40% of 53 00:03:56,070 --> 00:04:02,970 LGBTQI plus employees are not out at work. 26% of these 54 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:09,930 individuals wish that they could be out 36% of our employees have 55 00:04:09,930 --> 00:04:13,560 lied or covered parts of their identities at work in the past 56 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,450 year. 54% of employees who are out at work remain closeted to 57 00:04:18,450 --> 00:04:23,730 their clients and customers. And worst of all 75% reported 58 00:04:23,730 --> 00:04:27,750 experiencing at least one negative interaction related to 59 00:04:27,750 --> 00:04:33,780 their LGBTQI plus identity at work in the past year, with 41% 60 00:04:33,810 --> 00:04:40,170 experiencing more than 10 types 10 types of such interactions. 61 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:44,730 According to a recent StackOverflow developer 62 00:04:44,730 --> 00:04:48,180 demographic study, only one and a half percent of all 63 00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:52,380 respondents identify as transgender, which means those 64 00:04:52,380 --> 00:04:56,850 learning to code are slightly more likely to prefer to not say 65 00:04:57,060 --> 00:05:02,250 if they identify as transgender Look, these numbers are 66 00:05:02,250 --> 00:05:10,380 troubling. They're horrible, honestly. Especially if you've 67 00:05:10,380 --> 00:05:14,610 been paying attention to this podcast, where we've addressed 68 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:18,510 the general shift that's happening. Gen Z is coming in, 69 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:23,490 they're loud. They won't accept this. Thankfully, they 70 00:05:23,490 --> 00:05:30,120 shouldn't. They're gonna make it clear. Now it's up to the rest 71 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,620 of us to actually listen to do something. It's not just Gen Z, 72 00:05:34,620 --> 00:05:39,390 by the way. They're just loud. Thankfully, 73 00:05:40,890 --> 00:05:44,640 on Episode 80, with Gen Z video, we discussed Gen Z, and you 74 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,090 might recall that 69% of them stated that they would 75 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,720 absolutely be more likely to apply to a job at a company that 76 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,380 emphasized a racially and ethnically diverse workplaces in 77 00:05:55,380 --> 00:05:59,610 the recruitment materials. 88% of them felt that a recruiter or 78 00:05:59,610 --> 00:06:02,130 potential employer should solicit their gender pronouns 79 00:06:02,370 --> 00:06:11,070 88% Is anyone listening? That's that's almost all of them. 65% 80 00:06:11,070 --> 00:06:13,440 reported feeling strongly that such questions about gender 81 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,610 pronouns should be part of the recruitment process. And despite 82 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:23,490 all these expectations, only 18% said, they were asked about 83 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:26,280 their gender pronouns by the recruiter. Now that's an easy 84 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:32,430 one to fix. I could go on, I could keep editorializing, 85 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:37,170 clearly, I feel strongly. hope you do too. Hope you're 86 00:06:37,170 --> 00:06:43,620 disturbed by these facts, facts, folks. Here to discuss this 87 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:48,210 today with me is AB Walker, a truly wonderful person, by the 88 00:06:48,210 --> 00:06:52,140 way, who I happen to know very well. And I'm excited to talk to 89 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,370 AVI is the resident community builder and advocate here at 90 00:06:56,370 --> 00:06:59,790 DevOps Institute, having spent the breadth of the professional 91 00:06:59,790 --> 00:07:03,090 career. And if they're being honest, most of their teenage 92 00:07:03,090 --> 00:07:07,590 years as well, on the internet, they intimately understand the 93 00:07:07,590 --> 00:07:12,240 value of both in real life in person and online. 94 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:18,000 Accessibility, equity at intersection intersectionality 95 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,490 that's a tough word, by the way, are deeply ingrained into how 96 00:07:23,490 --> 00:07:26,460 they view the world, and the types of safe and inclusive 97 00:07:26,460 --> 00:07:30,330 communities they foster. After 10 years building community in 98 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:33,630 the higher education space, he made the leap to DevOps 99 00:07:33,630 --> 00:07:36,540 Institute, where they are building the DevOps in the wild 100 00:07:36,540 --> 00:07:40,350 community, to help technologists of all skill levels network, 101 00:07:40,470 --> 00:07:43,950 learn from one another, and grow as a community of practitioners 102 00:07:43,980 --> 00:07:48,420 and human beings. And ABIM. So excited to be talking to you 103 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:50,550 today. And thank you. 104 00:07:51,930 --> 00:07:53,640 AB Walker: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. 105 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:56,610 Jason Baum: Thank you for coming on. Thank you for opening 106 00:07:56,610 --> 00:08:03,090 yourself up being vulnerable. We read statistics. This is tough. 107 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,940 This must be hard. And I really appreciate it. 108 00:08:06,749 --> 00:08:10,529 AB Walker: Yeah, I'm not going to pretend to represent everyone 109 00:08:10,559 --> 00:08:14,699 in the alphabet mafia. Because that's way easier than saying 110 00:08:14,699 --> 00:08:18,239 LGBTQI A, it's it's a long, 111 00:08:18,509 --> 00:08:20,999 Jason Baum: let's let's use a long Initialism. 112 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,600 AB Walker: But yeah, I'm not going to pretend that I 113 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,680 represent anyone other than myself. But I do have experience 114 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:35,520 in this and you know, being a proud and out queer person, non 115 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,670 binary person, a person whose pronouns have been problematic 116 00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:41,550 in the workplace. I think I can talk about my experience a 117 00:08:41,550 --> 00:08:43,770 little bit, and I didn't believe it'll help somebody else. 118 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,550 Jason Baum: And those pronouns. Oh, I said it in in your intro, 119 00:08:47,550 --> 00:08:52,170 but But what are your pronouns? How do you identify? And would 120 00:08:52,170 --> 00:08:55,650 you mind kind of talking a little bit about that 121 00:08:55,650 --> 00:08:59,070 identification? Because I think it's important for for our 122 00:08:59,070 --> 00:09:01,650 listeners, all of us to understand it, too. 123 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,930 AB Walker: Yeah, sure. So my my pronouns are they them identify 124 00:09:06,930 --> 00:09:10,590 as genderqueer or non binary, which, if we're going by 125 00:09:10,590 --> 00:09:14,520 classifications is is a is within the trans community. 126 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,150 There's not much to say other than I'm me, like that's, that's 127 00:09:21,150 --> 00:09:25,260 really all it boils down to. I had a really wonderful 128 00:09:25,260 --> 00:09:29,310 colleague, at one point asked me really, really gently like, I 129 00:09:29,310 --> 00:09:33,000 don't, I'm not really sure how to how to do this. How do I do 130 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,270 the pronouns thing? And I'm just like, Listen, if it's a problem, 131 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:39,180 if you don't understand, to say my name, just you don't even 132 00:09:39,180 --> 00:09:44,460 have to use a pronoun, just say AB. It's as easy as that. And 133 00:09:44,490 --> 00:09:48,660 when people approach it with like kindness, it just makes a 134 00:09:48,660 --> 00:09:49,860 huge difference. So 135 00:09:51,510 --> 00:09:54,720 Jason Baum: good pronouns, especially they them by the way, 136 00:09:55,380 --> 00:09:59,550 I think you're we've talked about this, I think where some 137 00:09:59,550 --> 00:10:03,030 people still LEP is not necessarily. And look, I can't 138 00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:05,250 speak to like, you can't speak to everyone. I can't speak to 139 00:10:05,250 --> 00:10:09,390 everyone. I can speak to myself. I was a communication major. I 140 00:10:09,390 --> 00:10:16,500 was an AP English student, and I feel the Phantom slap on the 141 00:10:16,500 --> 00:10:19,080 wrist. Because back then they used to do that. And that's not 142 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,690 really great. I'm not condoning that by any means. But that's 143 00:10:21,690 --> 00:10:26,400 how that's happened. And, you know, for for grammatical 144 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:33,150 purposes, it was difficult. At first, now, it's effortless, I 145 00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:39,480 believe. But yeah, it's I think that's maybe for myself. And 146 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:45,420 we've talked about this where I slip on the occasion. And I 147 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:50,160 think that that using your name is a great way to kind of combat 148 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:50,670 that. 149 00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:53,160 AB Walker: It's interesting to it's interesting, how many 150 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,750 people say, you, you are not one of them, obviously, but how many 151 00:10:57,750 --> 00:11:01,560 people are like, Oh, I was raised? Yeah, you know, really, 152 00:11:01,590 --> 00:11:05,940 really focused on grammar. And the I can't I can't use they as 153 00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:08,820 a singular, it's just not right. First of all, it's in it's in 154 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:13,110 the dictionary, singular they, it's been around for literally 155 00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:17,940 centuries. But you also do it all the time without realizing 156 00:11:17,940 --> 00:11:22,800 you're doing it. person walked by you in a? Well, in pre COVID 157 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,280 times when we were out together. A person walks by you in the 158 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,060 coffee shop and drops a wallet, and you don't and you say oh 159 00:11:30,060 --> 00:11:34,140 look, they dropped their wallet. It's not actually that hard. 160 00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:37,350 It's just it's more about practice than anything else. 161 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,620 Jason Baum: That's true. Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. 162 00:11:40,620 --> 00:11:43,440 AB Walker: If it can slip out of your mouth, just naturally, 163 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,660 accidentally, when you're referring to somebody you don't 164 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:48,450 know, it can slip out of your mouth intentionally with someone 165 00:11:48,450 --> 00:11:54,780 who do. And on the on the flip side, sort of when you don't do 166 00:11:54,780 --> 00:12:00,360 that, it is a very it's a very clear sign of disrespect, even 167 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:01,020 if you don't mean it. 168 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,800 Jason Baum: Why do you think it is so hard for some people to do 169 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,390 it? Even when they No. 170 00:12:10,890 --> 00:12:14,340 AB Walker: I think it's so hard for people because it's just not 171 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:17,610 what they're used to. We are creatures of habit who would do 172 00:12:17,610 --> 00:12:22,200 things the same way all the time. I will talk to my partner 173 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,690 and say things I grew up saying in my family, and they'll look 174 00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:30,300 at me like what, like we all have these phrases and ideas and 175 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:34,260 things that we've just grown up saying, and that we may need to 176 00:12:34,260 --> 00:12:38,580 modify. We we've seen it with other even more problematic 177 00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:42,810 language where we we don't use different pejoratives and 178 00:12:42,810 --> 00:12:47,280 different slurs because that is what they are. But this doesn't 179 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,450 have for many people, it doesn't have the same weight. Because 180 00:12:51,450 --> 00:12:54,390 you're not you're not intentionally insulting me. 181 00:12:54,420 --> 00:12:59,190 Right. So I think I think some of it is that it doesn't feel as 182 00:12:59,190 --> 00:13:04,140 important to some folks to put that effort in because it's just 183 00:13:04,140 --> 00:13:07,440 easier to just fall in line. I thought it was really 184 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:12,390 interesting. In coming to DevOps Institute as as an organization 185 00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:15,840 we are completely virtual, have always been completely virtual. 186 00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:20,100 I didn't meet my colleagues in person for like six or eight 187 00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:25,290 months after I'd started. So I thought for me that it was going 188 00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:28,440 to be really easy to transition transition into an all virtual 189 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,440 community, and just have my pronouns out there and have 190 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,320 those be used. But even here, it was a little bit difficult. I'm 191 00:13:37,860 --> 00:13:40,170 not not super difficult. Everybody has been very 192 00:13:40,170 --> 00:13:43,440 accommodating and very trying their hardest and very 193 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,460 apologetic when they make mistakes. But it was interesting 194 00:13:47,460 --> 00:13:52,680 to watch people slip immediately into she her pronouns, because 195 00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:58,200 that's how my voice sounds, or my hair is longer right now. So 196 00:13:58,830 --> 00:14:02,940 it was interesting to having never met anyone face to face 197 00:14:02,940 --> 00:14:07,500 having never had anyone interact with my physical body still have 198 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:13,320 that stigma attached to me. Regardless, so it really is, I 199 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,370 think, in part, a learning process. I think it's about 200 00:14:18,540 --> 00:14:23,070 understanding and respecting other people's bodily autonomy 201 00:14:23,070 --> 00:14:27,690 and their their right to their personhood. But it's also a 202 00:14:27,690 --> 00:14:31,200 little bit uncomfortable for the folks who are used to a really 203 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,760 easy binary system that at especially tech folks, we're all 204 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,960 into ones and zeros of course we want to a male female, he or she 205 00:14:40,740 --> 00:14:43,770 that's what we want. That's what this what coders do, we work in 206 00:14:43,770 --> 00:14:48,840 ones and zeros all the time. But the real world is a little more 207 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,190 gray than that. It has a little bit more play in it. 208 00:14:54,420 --> 00:14:56,220 Jason Baum: Yeah, on the podcast, we don't talk to 209 00:14:56,220 --> 00:14:59,970 computers, we talk to humans. I think that's the easiest way to 210 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,360 to sum that up, I want to talk to you about some of those 211 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,830 numbers that I read because it's hard not to. Okay, so we read 212 00:15:07,830 --> 00:15:11,070 them, it's hard not to address them. Because they are so 213 00:15:11,070 --> 00:15:16,470 troubling many of them I did not know, until, you know, putting 214 00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:20,760 together the intro. And, and they they stick with you a 215 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,650 little bit, I think. And if they don't, they should, they should. 216 00:15:26,910 --> 00:15:35,160 One of them in particular was about safety. And it was 46% of 217 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:43,140 the alphabet mafia. Feel safe. At work, and on first of all, I 218 00:15:43,140 --> 00:15:49,260 think that should read 64% don't feel safe. I think that that 219 00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:54,360 blends that one more justice. Why do you think that is? 220 00:15:55,770 --> 00:15:58,260 AB Walker: I think in part we have to address different types 221 00:15:58,260 --> 00:16:04,380 of safety to in person, we're talking about true bodily 222 00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:10,110 autonomy, body safety. There are definitely people who when you 223 00:16:10,110 --> 00:16:15,540 are visibly queer in public, in a in areas that are less 224 00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:18,960 friendly to those of us who are visibly queer in public, that 225 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,640 you feel that danger just innately. And if you're working 226 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,120 in an environment where you are around folks around humans all 227 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:34,110 the time. It's really easy to feel unsafe. And I don't I don't 228 00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:36,390 want to bring politics in this. But it's easy to feel unsafe in 229 00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:40,440 a red state, as a visibly queer person, or unsafe in the South. 230 00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:43,620 Not everywhere. Obviously, there are many places that are very 231 00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:48,420 open. But there have been times when I've been traveling and I 232 00:16:48,420 --> 00:16:52,800 will, I'll mask I will make myself look even more 233 00:16:53,550 --> 00:16:59,250 effeminate. So that I can even even by virtue of the statistics 234 00:16:59,250 --> 00:17:04,740 of women, and violence against women are pretty darn high. We 235 00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:09,000 don't have to get into all of those right now. But I am 236 00:17:09,030 --> 00:17:13,230 statistically more likely to be okay, if I look like a 237 00:17:13,230 --> 00:17:18,840 cisgendered woman than I am, if I look like a queer person, if I 238 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,350 visibly show as trans because the violence against trans folks 239 00:17:22,350 --> 00:17:29,400 is so just so Hi. So that's I mean that that alone contributes 240 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,980 to the physical physical safety is a huge issue. 241 00:17:34,140 --> 00:17:37,050 Unknown: The tools we use as a team have a direct influence on 242 00:17:37,050 --> 00:17:40,110 how we work together. And the success we create. We built 243 00:17:40,110 --> 00:17:43,560 range with that in mind, by balancing asynchronous check ins 244 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,680 and real time collaboration, branch helps remote and hybrid 245 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,380 dev teams build alignment and put time back on the calendar 246 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:53,520 branch connects dozens of apps like JIRA and GitHub, in one 247 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,430 place. So everyone can share progress and updates on work, 248 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,750 making standups more focused and engaging for everyone. Visit us 249 00:18:00,750 --> 00:18:04,020 range.com/devops To learn more and try range 250 00:18:04,020 --> 00:18:09,270 Jason Baum: free. But what about in the virtual environment? As 251 00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:13,650 we talked about, you know, we are remote based and remote 252 00:18:13,650 --> 00:18:16,020 only. And does it exist there too? 253 00:18:16,170 --> 00:18:19,140 AB Walker: Yeah, in the virtual environment. psychological 254 00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:23,610 safety is a big deal. So I feel really lucky in my work 255 00:18:23,610 --> 00:18:26,640 environment, that I get to feel psychologically safe with folks, 256 00:18:26,910 --> 00:18:30,000 that if I had a problem, I could say to you, Hey, Jason, I'm 257 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,120 having this issue. Can we talk about it, and I know you will 258 00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:36,060 receive it from me, and we'll we'll be able to sort it out. 259 00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:40,320 But that's not standard practice. That's not it's really 260 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:48,150 hard for for folks who are not LGBTQIA, too. It's hard for them 261 00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:52,230 to sometimes step into the position of letting go of their 262 00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:57,210 own discomfort with whatever the conversation is happening, and 263 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,250 to advocate for somebody else in that position. Because a lot of 264 00:19:02,250 --> 00:19:04,980 it comes down to you know, maybe you don't want to step on toes, 265 00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:07,890 maybe you don't, that person is not trying to insult you or 266 00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:11,160 trying to hurt your feelings, but they are making you feel 267 00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:16,950 devalued. So how do you how do you walk those lines? And I 268 00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:21,840 think feeling safe is easier when you're at a physical 269 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:27,420 distance. It's easier to be safe behind a keyboard. But then, 270 00:19:28,020 --> 00:19:30,540 then we can look at some of those cyberbullying statistics 271 00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:33,750 and that sort of thing and say, well, that's still going to seep 272 00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:38,730 into your everyday life and disrupt your safety. So I think 273 00:19:38,730 --> 00:19:45,750 the reason that so many queer and trans folks feel not safe at 274 00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:50,730 work is because they're not we haven't committed as a society. 275 00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:55,050 Though we are seeing progress. We haven't committed as a 276 00:19:55,050 --> 00:19:59,820 society to providing a space that is safe for everyone and 277 00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:05,940 Without that, you can even without the agreement to like I 278 00:20:05,940 --> 00:20:09,570 will, I'll tolerate you I won't, I won't aggressively, even 279 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:11,970 without an agreement for tolerance, there's just always 280 00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:18,480 this risk of being visibly queer being openly gay being being out 281 00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:24,840 just being out period in public, whether that's virtual or IRL, 282 00:20:24,870 --> 00:20:26,160 you know, so? 283 00:20:29,069 --> 00:20:33,329 Jason Baum: Yeah. So, yeah, this is this is hard to talk about. 284 00:20:34,679 --> 00:20:38,519 You know, because it's so personal. It's so personal. You 285 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:40,979 know, when I would say that the answer then, right, because I 286 00:20:40,979 --> 00:20:44,399 guess that the next question would be, how do we make it 287 00:20:44,519 --> 00:20:49,469 safe? And I would say that, that the workplace answer has seemed 288 00:20:49,469 --> 00:20:59,999 to be a DNI Dei, policy. Are we doing enough with those? And 289 00:20:59,999 --> 00:21:01,829 then let's bring it back. Because this is this is the 290 00:21:01,829 --> 00:21:04,379 DevOps, you know, this is the humans of DevOps podcast. So 291 00:21:04,379 --> 00:21:07,019 let's talk about DevOps. Let's, let's try simplify that 292 00:21:07,049 --> 00:21:11,519 question. Because this is so hard. There's so much to it, 293 00:21:11,549 --> 00:21:16,289 that we're trying to wrap into a short podcast, we're not going 294 00:21:16,289 --> 00:21:20,069 to do it justice, knowing that but there are, so let's, let's 295 00:21:20,069 --> 00:21:23,339 bring it back to DevOps. What role does DevOps play in 296 00:21:23,339 --> 00:21:29,339 creating a culture that is also you know, that has a Dei, at its 297 00:21:29,339 --> 00:21:29,759 core, 298 00:21:30,660 --> 00:21:33,930 AB Walker: DevOps comes down to community, it comes down to 299 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,010 making sure that you are bringing folks together, that 300 00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:42,630 you are seeing each other for people not for the processes 301 00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:45,060 that you own, or the technology that's involved in what you're 302 00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:52,260 doing. It is people processes technology. So I feel like 303 00:21:52,260 --> 00:21:56,760 DevOps has diversity, equity inclusion, theoretically, at its 304 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,910 core, but not necessarily actively at its core. Yet, it's 305 00:21:59,910 --> 00:22:04,740 not. It wasn't the first thing that you thought of when when 306 00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:08,580 Jean Kim wrote, you know, Phoenix Project that they were 307 00:22:08,580 --> 00:22:10,080 talking about automation, they're talking about all sorts 308 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,730 of things. But talking about being an inclusive, accepting, 309 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:21,030 radically open environment so that people can feel safe and 310 00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:23,250 feel productive in their own workspace and in their own 311 00:22:23,250 --> 00:22:27,330 homes. That's, that's it, that's, that's the center like 312 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:34,140 the in order for us to make sure that DevOps is the best version 313 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:38,430 of itself that DevOps can be the culture builder and can really 314 00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:45,120 help to push the processes and technology forward. It is the 315 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:49,230 people first you have to focus on their safety, their emotional 316 00:22:49,230 --> 00:22:54,060 well being and all of that. So, yeah, I really think that I 317 00:22:54,060 --> 00:22:58,170 really think that DevOps has has the potential to have diversity, 318 00:22:58,170 --> 00:23:01,770 equity and inclusion, specifically at its core, but 319 00:23:01,770 --> 00:23:05,640 it's not, it's not written out right now. It's not, we're not 320 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,520 necessarily doing those in tandem. It's, it's at the core 321 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,900 of how I believe DevOps works. But it's sort of how I want 322 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:14,160 everyone to see DevOps as well. 323 00:23:14,910 --> 00:23:17,100 Jason Baum: It's not it's not it's not like part of the 324 00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,880 mission statement. But But certainly, there are elements of 325 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,910 it, too, that would support it. So and you talked about 326 00:23:23,910 --> 00:23:28,740 psychological safety. You know, we had Dwayne blomster. On the 327 00:23:28,740 --> 00:23:32,310 podcast, Travis, he talks about psychological safety, human 328 00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:35,820 debt, certainly, we could go into those. But most 329 00:23:35,820 --> 00:23:40,740 importantly, you know, how important is a diversity, 330 00:23:40,740 --> 00:23:46,920 equity, inclusion, policy, and psychological safety? To create 331 00:23:46,980 --> 00:23:48,660 a successful DevOps culture? 332 00:23:49,139 --> 00:23:52,589 AB Walker: Oh, I think you can't really do one without the other. 333 00:23:53,099 --> 00:23:57,749 And I won't say that a Diversity Equity and Inclusion statement 334 00:23:57,749 --> 00:24:02,429 will solve anything, because truly behind anything, there has 335 00:24:02,429 --> 00:24:08,009 to be action in order for a dei statement or a commitment to dei 336 00:24:08,009 --> 00:24:13,379 to mean anything. It needs to be backed up by the actual the act 337 00:24:13,379 --> 00:24:16,829 of doing the the actual doing of the inclusion. 338 00:24:17,220 --> 00:24:20,130 Jason Baum: Well, well, to your point. I mean, just now, like, 339 00:24:21,090 --> 00:24:23,130 go back to the beginning of the podcast, right? And those 340 00:24:23,130 --> 00:24:26,520 numbers, right, I mean, it proves it, right with Gen Z. And 341 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,510 they're asking for a recognized pronouns on your on your 342 00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:35,640 application. Sounds simple, right? Yeah. Like all those 343 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,650 companies have dei policies to buy, they 344 00:24:37,650 --> 00:24:41,970 AB Walker: absolutely do. But most of them most of them won't 345 00:24:42,150 --> 00:24:46,260 ask that question yet. And it's so as let's just talk about 346 00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:52,890 entering a new job. So when I start a new job, my name my my 347 00:24:52,890 --> 00:24:56,520 birth name, the name on my birth certificate is not AB Walker. It 348 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,360 is my professional name for a number of reasons. But name 349 00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:04,290 changes are really expensive. So not going to not going to do 350 00:25:04,290 --> 00:25:06,780 that right about now. And I don't really hate the name I was 351 00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:09,870 born with, I just don't need that to be my professional 352 00:25:09,870 --> 00:25:15,690 moniker. However, when I joined, when I joined an organization, 353 00:25:15,930 --> 00:25:18,210 what's the first thing that happens? You submit all this 354 00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:21,330 paperwork with your legal name, they immediately create your 355 00:25:21,330 --> 00:25:24,930 email address with your dead name, they immediately put 356 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,380 pronouns on there that may or may not suit you. And it 357 00:25:28,380 --> 00:25:30,990 happens, it happens at work, it happens at the doctor's office, 358 00:25:30,990 --> 00:25:38,220 it happens everywhere. And that, it sounds it sounds weird to say 359 00:25:38,220 --> 00:25:41,550 that that's that's an aggression toward me. But in some ways, 360 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:46,200 that makes me feel less like a person, it makes me feel like 361 00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:51,000 oh, these things that are part of who I am, don't matter to you 362 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,920 as the organization. So just including, including pronouns, 363 00:25:55,980 --> 00:25:59,490 even if even if you don't ask someone to give you their 364 00:25:59,490 --> 00:26:02,160 pronouns, give them the opportunity to be like, if you 365 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,560 want to share your pronouns, here's the time to do it. 366 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,230 Because there are there are definitely still folks. And I 367 00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:11,610 think they're my mom said, I could tell the stories, I'm 368 00:26:11,610 --> 00:26:17,880 going to say there, like my mom grew as a as a technologist, 369 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,110 she's kind of a heavy hitter, she has always preferred to not 370 00:26:22,110 --> 00:26:26,250 use pronouns and to not share them in a public forum, because 371 00:26:26,250 --> 00:26:30,270 she doesn't want to be known as a woman in technology, she wants 372 00:26:30,270 --> 00:26:35,280 to be known as a technologist first, I just want to be me, I 373 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,770 don't want to have to like I don't want to have to give you 374 00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:41,010 my pronouns, I wish we could purely, I think it'd be kind of 375 00:26:41,010 --> 00:26:44,520 nice. If we just all went by a neutral, whatever. Let's pick a 376 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,920 neutral set of pronouns, and everyone gets the same one. 377 00:26:47,730 --> 00:26:50,250 Because you can get who you're talking about, by context clues, 378 00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:55,920 it's not that hard. So there are definitely reasons why folks 379 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,000 don't want to have to put their pronouns out there. But there 380 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,940 are more folks that will feel safe if you do. And there are 381 00:27:02,940 --> 00:27:08,280 more folks who will be able to feel comfortable in their own 382 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,630 skin, which promotes their own emotional and psychological 383 00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:16,410 safety, which enables them to be better employees. And I don't 384 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:21,360 want to boil it down to like some, like corporate, you know, 385 00:27:21,420 --> 00:27:24,510 equation on how do you get more productivity out of people, but 386 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,460 happy are people do well, people who feel safe, do better, and 387 00:27:29,460 --> 00:27:33,060 are more likely to have long happy careers doing things that 388 00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:35,820 they love. And that benefits the organization as well as the 389 00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:36,450 individual. 390 00:27:37,859 --> 00:27:41,789 Jason Baum: Yeah, I mean, the excuse that it's hard to turn 391 00:27:41,789 --> 00:27:46,859 things around, you know, you know, I've heard the cruise ship 392 00:27:46,979 --> 00:27:50,039 example, you know, turning these things around is like turning a 393 00:27:50,039 --> 00:27:54,119 cruise ship or, you know, and but then we go back to pronouns, 394 00:27:54,239 --> 00:27:56,879 and simply just putting pronouns on the job application, for 395 00:27:56,879 --> 00:27:59,429 example, something easy, or like you said, when you're when 396 00:27:59,429 --> 00:28:03,329 you're filling out the HR, homework, and you need to put 397 00:28:03,329 --> 00:28:06,209 everything down simply asking for pronouns. It's not hard. 398 00:28:06,449 --> 00:28:11,279 That's like, that's such an easy thing to do. I think the problem 399 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:14,399 is, and look, I could, I'm really trying not to 400 00:28:14,399 --> 00:28:18,659 editorialize too much as the host of the podcast. But I will 401 00:28:18,659 --> 00:28:24,299 just say that, what my observation is, is that it does 402 00:28:24,299 --> 00:28:28,889 seem like that when you do that, for example, I'm wondering if 403 00:28:28,889 --> 00:28:32,999 they're getting backlash, too. And I think it comes from both 404 00:28:32,999 --> 00:28:37,289 sides. And unfortunately, like so many things in the United 405 00:28:37,289 --> 00:28:40,919 States, for example, becomes a political issue, and not 406 00:28:40,919 --> 00:28:44,909 necessarily an issue of humanity. And unfortunately, on 407 00:28:44,909 --> 00:28:49,979 marrying those two is difficult. And I would, that's my 408 00:28:50,039 --> 00:28:52,829 observation, it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. 409 00:28:52,859 --> 00:28:54,029 That's just what I think. 410 00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:56,220 AB Walker: Yeah, that's definitely one of the things 411 00:28:56,220 --> 00:29:00,990 that I've experienced. A lot of my previous work I spent time 412 00:29:00,990 --> 00:29:05,460 with, with friends in HR, and they are they see they they 413 00:29:05,460 --> 00:29:10,170 answer those questions all the time. My response to that, 414 00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:16,260 though, is providing people an option to share their pronouns 415 00:29:16,260 --> 00:29:20,550 to share their, their their, and not an like on a form, not 416 00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:24,030 calling it a nickname, calling it like preferred name, like I 417 00:29:24,030 --> 00:29:27,300 know how these databases work, I know that you can do that. It's 418 00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:29,760 not that hard to set up my preferred name as the name you 419 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,020 send things to. That's not That's not that difficult. I'm 420 00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:37,650 pretty sure if a monkey can type Shakespeare monkey can also do 421 00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:44,190 that, you know, but giving people the option is never the 422 00:29:44,190 --> 00:29:49,080 worst choice. It is significantly more inclusive and 423 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,100 significantly easier than forcing someone to try and get 424 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:58,110 their own pronouns on the on the forum, or having someone be 425 00:29:58,110 --> 00:30:01,650 constantly dead named and feel Same at work and not be able to 426 00:30:01,650 --> 00:30:07,200 bring that up to HR because it's not safe for them to do so. So 427 00:30:07,230 --> 00:30:12,990 while it might make someone who is very confident in their 428 00:30:12,990 --> 00:30:17,100 gender let's say this nicely. 429 00:30:19,710 --> 00:30:21,570 Jason Baum: Well done. Don't say it nicely. This is no good 430 00:30:21,570 --> 00:30:22,860 podcast be honest. 431 00:30:22,890 --> 00:30:25,530 AB Walker: Well, I mean, while it might make someone who is, 432 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,070 let's say cisgendered, confident in their in the gender that they 433 00:30:29,070 --> 00:30:33,030 were born into someone who is confident in their pronouns, 434 00:30:33,030 --> 00:30:37,650 somebody who is not part of the LGBTQIA community, while it 435 00:30:37,650 --> 00:30:41,520 might ruffle feathers, the inclusion effort is 436 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,400 significantly more worth it than than worrying about ruffled 437 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,820 feathers. Because there's an option on a checkbox like that, 438 00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:51,660 it's not going to harm you that I can share my pronouns. In 439 00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:55,050 fact, what's going to harm me more, and what's going to harm 440 00:30:55,050 --> 00:30:58,380 you more in the long run, let's say you're my employer, is if I 441 00:30:58,380 --> 00:31:04,140 can't share myself with you, and then I either, like, take my own 442 00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:08,160 life, because suicide rates among queer and trans folks are 443 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,900 so high, or can't be like a productive happy member of 444 00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:16,380 society, because my safety is consistently being taken away. 445 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,140 And it may seem like pronouns are not a big deal in that 446 00:31:22,140 --> 00:31:27,120 regard. But that's, it's you're identifying who I am as a 447 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,480 person. And if you are constantly calling me out by 448 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,990 something that does not reflect how I feel about myself, and 449 00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:38,790 does not reflect who I am. It's like somebody all day every day 450 00:31:38,790 --> 00:31:43,200 calling you, Jim, Jim Baum. Hi, Hi, Jim. How you doing? Right? 451 00:31:43,470 --> 00:31:46,650 It's not It's like somebody using it is somebody using a 452 00:31:46,650 --> 00:31:48,870 name that's not yours? It's somebody using terminology that 453 00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:53,040 doesn't reflect you that isn't you? And doing so in a way that 454 00:31:53,790 --> 00:31:56,790 whether intentionally or unintentionally harms your, 455 00:31:56,820 --> 00:31:59,220 your, your mental health every time that happens? 456 00:32:00,420 --> 00:32:03,300 Jason Baum: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And, you know, I 457 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:07,770 think for me, when I hear you speak, and I read the 458 00:32:07,770 --> 00:32:12,420 statistics, and it just brings me back to who I am as a person, 459 00:32:12,420 --> 00:32:17,670 I'm, I identified myself right now, as a parent. I do identify 460 00:32:17,670 --> 00:32:20,640 who I am. But you know, what, I'm also a parent, and I think 461 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,450 about the world that I want my child to be brought up in. And 462 00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:27,990 all I could think about, as you're talking is, I think we 463 00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:32,940 have we have ingrained rights as individuals. And that is the 464 00:32:32,940 --> 00:32:41,550 right to be safe, the right to be seen, and we should be 465 00:32:41,550 --> 00:32:47,310 validated. And that, to me, is what brings someone that that 466 00:32:47,310 --> 00:32:49,710 that closure, that psychological safety that we're seeking, 467 00:32:49,710 --> 00:32:53,700 right. It's just seeming, you don't have to agree, right? Hear 468 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:59,070 me validate that I that exist. And then and hopefully, 469 00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:03,720 hopefully, that brings safety. And for that I no matter what 470 00:33:04,260 --> 00:33:07,500 your belief system is, I think that I would hope that we can 471 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,550 all meet on that common ground, I hope, I hope that there's that 472 00:33:11,670 --> 00:33:16,320 that for us as humanity otherwise, I don't know what 473 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:21,660 we're going to do. Abi really appreciate your time and coming 474 00:33:21,660 --> 00:33:24,300 on. And I wish we could talk about this more because this is 475 00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:28,650 a topic and perhaps we could in whether we do it on this podcast 476 00:33:28,650 --> 00:33:33,090 or another vehicle. But I appreciate you coming on and 477 00:33:33,090 --> 00:33:36,600 sharing and opening yourself up. I do have one last question. 478 00:33:38,730 --> 00:33:42,270 What's one question you wish I'd asked you? And then how would 479 00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:43,170 you answer that question? 480 00:33:45,539 --> 00:33:48,539 AB Walker: I've heard you ask dozens of folks that question 481 00:33:48,569 --> 00:33:54,419 and crossed my fingers that you would not ask it if me. Um, one 482 00:33:54,419 --> 00:33:56,879 thing that I think is important to this not maybe not that I 483 00:33:56,879 --> 00:33:59,579 wish you would have asked me but one thing that I think is 484 00:33:59,579 --> 00:34:06,179 important to consider, as I like last thought here is everyone 485 00:34:06,509 --> 00:34:10,439 that we're talking about whether it is the folks that we agree 486 00:34:10,439 --> 00:34:14,099 with or the folks that we don't. Everyone that we're talking 487 00:34:14,099 --> 00:34:20,699 about is human first. They are people they are if you if you 488 00:34:21,089 --> 00:34:23,639 have a spiritual bent as I occasionally do, they're 489 00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:27,149 manifestations of the Divine, they are an interaction with 490 00:34:27,149 --> 00:34:38,069 God. So if we treat each other with even a fraction of the 491 00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:43,739 respect that we treat, institutions and religions and 492 00:34:45,779 --> 00:34:52,109 we'll all be in a better place. And I think I think everything, 493 00:34:52,439 --> 00:34:55,109 everything that I've said or that I would want to say boils 494 00:34:55,109 --> 00:35:03,329 down to I'm human first. I am human more than anything else? 495 00:35:03,479 --> 00:35:06,239 That's really all you need to know about me just treat me like 496 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,869 another person. Treat me like I have feelings. Treat me with 497 00:35:09,869 --> 00:35:14,519 kindness. And that's all I ask of you. Although, while I'm 498 00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:17,549 saying that I did have I did have another, I did have another 499 00:35:17,549 --> 00:35:22,469 answer for this, I realized one of the questions I get asked a 500 00:35:22,469 --> 00:35:26,819 lot is, and it's not really a question, it's when somebody 501 00:35:26,819 --> 00:35:30,689 messes up a pronoun, or when somebody makes a mistake, with 502 00:35:30,689 --> 00:35:35,039 my name or something like that. There's always this big apology. 503 00:35:35,459 --> 00:35:38,189 And primarily, it's because people feel uncomfortable, they 504 00:35:38,189 --> 00:35:40,109 feel like they've been assaulted. They, they want to 505 00:35:40,109 --> 00:35:42,779 make sure with the best of intentions, that they haven't 506 00:35:42,779 --> 00:35:46,649 hurt my feelings. And what I will always say to that, and 507 00:35:46,649 --> 00:35:48,719 this is, this is personal for me, it doesn't work for 508 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,669 everyone, but it is personal for me that, in general, if you make 509 00:35:53,669 --> 00:35:59,129 a mistake, correct it and move on. It's sort of one of the 510 00:35:59,129 --> 00:36:02,849 cores of DevOps to like, fail fast. Do the same thing with 511 00:36:02,849 --> 00:36:07,649 pronouns do the same thing. With people's dead names, fail fast, 512 00:36:07,919 --> 00:36:12,509 make their make that mistake, when you called me She say, 513 00:36:12,539 --> 00:36:15,569 oops, they can continue on. Like, you don't have to 514 00:36:15,569 --> 00:36:19,439 apologize. You don't have to cry about it. I'm not going to 515 00:36:19,439 --> 00:36:25,319 correct you every time because not my job. But just do it 516 00:36:25,319 --> 00:36:28,859 quickly. It's okay. It's not an offense, it's not a problem. 517 00:36:29,549 --> 00:36:33,389 Just keep going because we all make those mistakes. I as a as a 518 00:36:33,389 --> 00:36:36,959 person who has difficult pronouns for people have messed 519 00:36:36,959 --> 00:36:41,069 up other people's pronouns, we all do it. It's just about 520 00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:46,229 acknowledging it apologizing and moving on. So that's, I think 521 00:36:46,229 --> 00:36:48,449 that's a good a good takeaway from this. 522 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,470 Jason Baum: All said, I, AB I really appreciate you coming on 523 00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:57,180 the podcast. And, and thank you for opening up and being 524 00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:59,340 vulnerable to share your experiences. 525 00:37:00,270 --> 00:37:01,230 AB Walker: Thanks for having me. 526 00:37:02,610 --> 00:37:04,830 Jason Baum: And thank you for listening to this episode of the 527 00:37:04,830 --> 00:37:08,220 humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode The 528 00:37:08,220 --> 00:37:11,820 way I always do encouraging you to join the DevOps Institute 529 00:37:11,820 --> 00:37:15,810 community today to get access to even more great resources just 530 00:37:15,810 --> 00:37:18,960 like this one. Let's keep this conversation going, shall we? 531 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,460 Join me in the wild the DevOps in the wild community forum at 532 00:37:23,460 --> 00:37:27,570 Community dot DevOps institute.com. Until next time, 533 00:37:27,570 --> 00:37:32,010 stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, stay human, live 534 00:37:32,010 --> 00:37:32,730 long and prosper. 535 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,380 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 536 00:37:40,380 --> 00:37:43,950 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 537 00:37:43,950 --> 00:37:47,310 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 538 00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:50,760 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 539 00:37:51,060 --> 00:37:51,810 You belong