1 00:00:05,460 --> 00:00:14,370 Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove. This month: 2 00:00:16,110 --> 00:00:17,670 Matooke Goes With Everything 3 00:00:25,590 --> 00:00:26,340 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You know, when you say 4 00:00:27,540 --> 00:00:30,900 that...if...you ask if it tastes different here, compared to 5 00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:35,970 Uganda? The thing is in Uganda, they don't boil it, just boil it 6 00:00:36,030 --> 00:00:40,170 as we boil it here. So what they do, they have a basket like 7 00:00:40,170 --> 00:00:44,220 this, and they get the fibre from the banana leaf. And they 8 00:00:44,220 --> 00:00:48,330 put it cross, cross in the basket. Then they get a banana, 9 00:00:48,330 --> 00:00:51,720 another, a big banana leaf, depending on how many people 10 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,290 you're cooking for. And you put it, you fold it and you put it 11 00:00:55,290 --> 00:00:59,580 in the basket. So you peel your matooke, and you put it in this 12 00:00:59,580 --> 00:01:04,380 banana leaf and make a big parcel. Yeah? Using the banana 13 00:01:05,010 --> 00:01:09,810 fibres, you tie it up. And then the way they cook it, then 14 00:01:10,620 --> 00:01:13,800 they...put like...it's been modernized now. Before they used 15 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,040 to take the stalk from the banana itself, you know, the 16 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,850 banana, the bunch and put it under the sauce...underneath in 17 00:01:20,850 --> 00:01:24,510 the saucepan, then put all... sort of making a steamer. Yeah? 18 00:01:24,540 --> 00:01:26,370 Katasi E. Kironde: A natural steamer, yeah. 19 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,410 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then they will put this parcel 20 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:33,180 on top of the stalks, you know? And then you use the banana 21 00:01:33,180 --> 00:01:38,940 leaves and sort of cover it up, put it in a saucepan and cover, 22 00:01:39,090 --> 00:01:43,440 people use about six or seven green ones. And then you boil 23 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,130 it. To get the aroma of the banana leaf. 24 00:01:47,130 --> 00:01:47,760 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. 25 00:01:48,180 --> 00:01:50,880 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then after it's been cooked, 26 00:01:50,910 --> 00:01:54,600 they don't mash it with a masher like we do here. They use their 27 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,740 hands and sort of another banana leaf. And they use their hands 28 00:01:58,770 --> 00:02:02,190 to mash it within the, you know, in the parcel. I don't know how 29 00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:05,370 the women know - or whoever's cooking know - that the...I 30 00:02:05,430 --> 00:02:08,070 don't know how they know that is mashed enough and it has no 31 00:02:08,070 --> 00:02:11,790 lumps in it. But they do it because they don't open the 32 00:02:11,790 --> 00:02:15,660 banana leaf to see if it's soft, or if it's ready or not. And 33 00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:20,310 then once they've done that, they put it back in the saucepan 34 00:02:20,370 --> 00:02:25,470 and go over the whole process again, of re-steaming it so that 35 00:02:25,470 --> 00:02:30,990 way it becomes softer and yellow. And it takes more aroma 36 00:02:30,990 --> 00:02:32,520 from the banana leaves. 37 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:34,470 Katasi E. Kironde: It's steaming, it comes off...it's 38 00:02:34,530 --> 00:02:37,740 served to you steaming, you know as opposed to here...you know 39 00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:40,380 it's a little bit lumpier. And also, I feel like it's the 40 00:02:40,380 --> 00:02:46,920 original slow cooker, because these...four hours it might take 41 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:48,330 just make this... 42 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,150 Lucy Dearlove: Just over this very low heat, just the ashes, 43 00:02:51,180 --> 00:02:51,540 yeah. 44 00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:51,930 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, 45 00:02:52,140 --> 00:02:57,810 My name is Katasi E. Kironde. I'm from West London via 46 00:02:57,810 --> 00:02:58,530 Kampala. 47 00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:03,150 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: My name is Elizabeth Kibalama. I'm 48 00:03:03,180 --> 00:03:10,530 Katasi's mother. And actually, same thing. I grew up in Uganda 49 00:03:10,530 --> 00:03:15,900 now been here in England for quite some...a number of years. 50 00:03:16,020 --> 00:03:18,720 Lucy Dearlove: So when I asked...when I asked Katasti if 51 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,330 she would speak to me for Lecker, basically the first 52 00:03:21,330 --> 00:03:23,610 thing you said was like "Do you want to speak to my mum, as 53 00:03:23,610 --> 00:03:30,060 well, because I learned everything I know from her?" So 54 00:03:30,090 --> 00:03:32,520 maybe you could just tell me a bit about how you learned to 55 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,890 cook Elizabeth. You know, what did you grow up eating? 56 00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:36,120 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You know something, it was really 57 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,590 amazing. I think I learned cooking when I was about six 58 00:03:40,590 --> 00:03:44,280 years old. I could make the groundnut sauce. So what you're 59 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:51,690 gonna have some now! Yeah, yeah, I was allowed to do groundnut 60 00:03:51,690 --> 00:03:54,300 sauce. So I think basically, that was the first thing I was 61 00:03:54,300 --> 00:04:00,120 allowed to cook. Because by then I was living with an uncle of 62 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,170 mine, you know, sort of, in sort of in the village. We used to 63 00:04:04,170 --> 00:04:07,860 grow our own food, like tomatoes and all the vegetables and 64 00:04:07,860 --> 00:04:11,370 everything. One just had to go to the garden to pick up the 65 00:04:11,370 --> 00:04:14,760 tomatoes and onions, and you've come home and you cut up the 66 00:04:14,790 --> 00:04:18,720 onions and...and funnily enough, we never fried anything at all, 67 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:24,510 we never used any oils at all, you know, it was all natural. 68 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:28,590 And then as far as matooke was concerned - this was really 69 00:04:28,740 --> 00:04:33,270 crazy - because there is a special knife the people at home 70 00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:36,720 use. It's sort of hooked, you know, at the top here like this 71 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,280 and it's got a wooden, a wooden handle. As they got...that knife 72 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:46,020 gets older, the wooden handle breaks off. So they tend to give 73 00:04:46,020 --> 00:04:50,610 that to the children to learn to peel so that they don't cut 74 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,980 themselves and it was always blunt. 75 00:04:53,580 --> 00:04:56,100 Lucy Dearlove: So much harder? 76 00:04:56,610 --> 00:04:59,070 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, but anyway, I think they just 77 00:04:59,070 --> 00:05:02,310 didn't want us to cut ourselves, you know, so many of us...we 78 00:05:02,310 --> 00:05:06,900 struggled, but we eventually got into the idea of learning how to 79 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:12,060 peel the matooke. And then, of course, by then I could watch 80 00:05:12,210 --> 00:05:16,320 how my aunt used to, you know, to prepare the matooke and all 81 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:16,890 that. 82 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,270 Lucy Dearlove: And could you explain what matooke is? 83 00:05:21,450 --> 00:05:26,850 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: It's a form of...a banana. But this 84 00:05:26,850 --> 00:05:32,790 one is not eaten as a fruit, it;s eaten as a staple food, 85 00:05:32,790 --> 00:05:39,120 like you could eat sweet potato or mashed potato, or something 86 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:39,840 like that. 87 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,394 Katasi E. Kironde: If I'm very specific, in Buganda, like the 88 00:05:43,455 --> 00:05:47,161 ethnic group that we are from the centre and around Kampala, 89 00:05:47,223 --> 00:05:50,558 many people will say like "a meal isn't a meal without 90 00:05:50,620 --> 00:05:54,202 matooke". Like you haven't eaten, if you've eaten anything 91 00:05:54,264 --> 00:05:58,032 else, you've eaten rice, sweet potato, chapati and there's no 92 00:05:58,094 --> 00:06:00,750 matooke...it's not food, as they would say! 93 00:06:00,780 --> 00:06:02,160 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: In actual fact, they always 94 00:06:03,060 --> 00:06:06,750 say.....when they say food, which is emmere, in Uganda, they 95 00:06:06,750 --> 00:06:07,260 mean matooke. 96 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:09,300 Lucy Dearlove: Okay, right! 97 00:06:09,330 --> 00:06:12,000 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. The others are additionals. 98 00:06:14,250 --> 00:06:14,760 Yeah. 99 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:16,530 Lucy Dearlove: So if someone says that, you know, they mean 100 00:06:16,530 --> 00:06:16,620 Matooke, wow. 101 00:06:16,650 --> 00:06:17,760 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. 102 00:06:18,690 --> 00:06:22,440 There's really no matooke, there's no food. 103 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,540 It's very specific to the, to the Great Lakes region. So you'd 104 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:32,310 find it in Congo and Rwanda. I think in Rwanda they call it 105 00:06:32,310 --> 00:06:35,760 Etooke, yeah, in Tanzania, especially around...I mean, 106 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,280 Uganda is landlocked. So anywhere around, really, you'll 107 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:38,910 find it. 108 00:06:39,810 --> 00:06:42,390 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Literally all around around Lake Victoria. 109 00:06:43,950 --> 00:06:46,950 Katasi E. Kironde: We buy it in Shepherds Bush...do you get it 110 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:48,330 from Strawberry Hill, from Strawberry Hill? 111 00:06:48,330 --> 00:06:48,810 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah from Strawberry Hill. 112 00:06:48,810 --> 00:06:52,140 Katasi E. Kironde: Strawberry Hill, very specific shop within 113 00:06:52,590 --> 00:06:57,330 the market. But it's cheaper to buy in boxes, but we would never 114 00:06:57,330 --> 00:07:01,140 finish a whole box. You can get better prices in South London 115 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:03,990 and East London and where there's more clusters of Ugandan 116 00:07:03,990 --> 00:07:06,990 people. And if you go too late, sometimes that we have to call 117 00:07:06,990 --> 00:07:09,690 them up and say, Oh, can you just hold them back for us? And 118 00:07:09,690 --> 00:07:10,890 we might not find any. 119 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:14,850 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, they know us now. 120 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,390 There is something called Luwombo and that is vegetables 121 00:07:24,420 --> 00:07:30,480 or meat prepared in a banana leaf. They get a basket like 122 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:36,360 this. And then they get the young of the plant, the banana 123 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,560 leaf without holes in it, and they would smoke it. You know, 124 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,130 they pass it over the fire and it becomes more like plasticky. 125 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,990 And then they fold it, put it in the basket, then you can put 126 00:07:49,590 --> 00:07:53,250 your...depending on what you want to cook. You could cook 127 00:07:53,370 --> 00:08:00,540 meat or fish or groundnut sauce or mushroom sauce. Literally 128 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:03,900 anything you know. I mean it goes with anything. 129 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,360 Katasi E. Kironde: But I think matooke is one of these...I 130 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,250 don't know, one of these foods that just pairs well, with so 131 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:15,630 many different flavours. You can have it with a meat...like 132 00:08:15,630 --> 00:08:20,340 matooke nyama which is literally matooke and meat...it's just 133 00:08:20,340 --> 00:08:24,360 like, divine because it just soaks up the sauce and I find it 134 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,480 that it's best eaten with your hands like for for like...I'm 135 00:08:27,540 --> 00:08:31,650 not gonna make you use your hands Lucy! But just to soak up 136 00:08:31,650 --> 00:08:34,950 the last bit of gravy and because matooke doesn't have an 137 00:08:34,950 --> 00:08:38,460 overpowering taste. So it just blends well with everything. 138 00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:41,760 When I'm in Uganda I like to have it with offals. A lot of 139 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:46,740 our sauces are blended with curry powder, a bit of Royco, 140 00:08:46,740 --> 00:08:51,390 which is just like the super mix, and tomatoes and fried 141 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:54,810 onions. So like a bit of...yeah, bit of a curry sauce, really and 142 00:08:54,990 --> 00:09:02,820 again, this curry is symbolic of the South Asian influence. You 143 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:06,030 can have matooke in so many different ways like Katogo which 144 00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:11,550 would be like a mash up or melange of beans, but you'd have 145 00:09:11,550 --> 00:09:13,470 it whole so you don't have to mash it. And that's the one I 146 00:09:13,470 --> 00:09:16,020 make the most because I don't have to, I don't have to sort of 147 00:09:16,020 --> 00:09:20,850 pound it. It's like peel, boil and then mix it up with your 148 00:09:20,850 --> 00:09:21,630 bean sauce. 149 00:09:21,780 --> 00:09:23,550 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Bean sauce or groundnut sauce or 150 00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:26,010 meat, yeah. 151 00:09:30,030 --> 00:09:32,100 Katasi E. Kironde: You just literally...so at an angle you 152 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:35,760 just peel at an angle and then there's lots of sap so you've 153 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:40,500 got to put oil in your hands. Yeah, they're really sappy. 154 00:09:41,940 --> 00:09:47,880 Let's take out the matooke. Well, we have shortcuts. So my 155 00:09:47,910 --> 00:09:50,400 mum's... mum taught me how to make it really but basically you 156 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:55,410 put it in a pressure cooker, just to speed up the process 157 00:09:55,410 --> 00:09:58,410 after you've peeled it and then take it out the pressure cooker 158 00:09:58,710 --> 00:10:02,520 and then mash it with like your regular potato masher. And 159 00:10:03,150 --> 00:10:04,380 then...this part is quite intricate...do you want to 160 00:10:04,380 --> 00:10:05,070 explain? 161 00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:06,960 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: So this is what we do can you see? 162 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,010 Lucy Dearlove: I'm just going to take a photo! 163 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,870 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: She wants to take a photo! So what 164 00:10:15,870 --> 00:10:20,880 you do, once you've done, you've mashed it, you use a foil, and 165 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,770 you put it in a foil paper and wrap it up. You get a casserole 166 00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:32,370 dish, and you get like a kitchen cloth. And you wet it and wring 167 00:10:32,370 --> 00:10:33,300 the water out. 168 00:10:33,330 --> 00:10:36,000 Lucy Dearlove: OK, so inside here...under the....this is the 169 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,080 dish cloth you describe? 170 00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:38,790 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, this is the dish cloth. And so 171 00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:44,670 you just do it like this. And sit that kitchen cloth in the 172 00:10:44,670 --> 00:10:48,630 casserole dish. Then you take your parcel of matooke in foil 173 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:53,940 and put it inside. Wrap it up. So it keeps it moist. 174 00:10:53,970 --> 00:10:56,190 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. So kind of like like the banana leaves. 175 00:10:56,190 --> 00:10:59,820 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, this is sort of imitating the 176 00:10:59,820 --> 00:11:03,330 original sort of thing. And then 177 00:11:03,330 --> 00:11:04,350 Lucy Dearlove: Oh wow, okay, 178 00:11:04,350 --> 00:11:07,380 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. If you've got a cover for the 179 00:11:07,380 --> 00:11:10,320 casserole dish, you cover it, and you just stick it in the 180 00:11:10,350 --> 00:11:13,380 oven. You know, at a very low heat. 181 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,260 Katasi E. Kironde: I hope this is warm enough. I'll just take 182 00:11:19,260 --> 00:11:30,270 some out for you. So we've got the groundnut sauce. And we'll 183 00:11:30,330 --> 00:11:32,850 put some fish in there. Because traditionally, you put some fish 184 00:11:32,850 --> 00:11:35,130 in or you could put mushrooms. 185 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,230 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: So what we doto improvise here 186 00:11:37,230 --> 00:11:40,890 because we can't get the dry fish we get from home. We use 187 00:11:40,890 --> 00:11:43,800 mackerel. Smoked mackerel, yeah. 188 00:11:43,830 --> 00:11:46,560 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. And that's a similar...a similar flavour? 189 00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:48,750 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. As long as it's dried fish, 190 00:11:48,780 --> 00:11:49,230 yeah. 191 00:11:49,410 --> 00:11:51,870 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. You can get dry fish in Shepherds Bush, 192 00:11:51,870 --> 00:11:52,770 but it'll be... 193 00:11:53,130 --> 00:11:55,110 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You have to soak it. And sometimes 194 00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:59,580 it's hard. And all that. Though if we went...if we were bothered 195 00:11:59,610 --> 00:12:04,590 to go to East London, we can get the fresh fish. Tilapia from 196 00:12:04,590 --> 00:12:05,220 Uganda. 197 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,020 Katasi E. Kironde: Is that...they're just spring 198 00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:07,770 greens aren't they? 199 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:08,970 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, no, that is spinach 200 00:12:09,060 --> 00:12:12,030 Katasi E. Kironde: Oh, spinach. But again, we have so much 201 00:12:12,030 --> 00:12:14,460 vegetation in Uganda. That you... 202 00:12:14,460 --> 00:12:15,120 Lucy Dearlove: So lots of greens? 203 00:12:15,150 --> 00:12:17,460 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, exactly. 204 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:19,920 Lucy Dearlove: So I think a bit of this and then live in get it 205 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:20,040 in? 206 00:12:20,070 --> 00:12:23,040 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, exactly. Yes, precisely. 207 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:29,220 Lucy Dearlove: Mm hmm. Okay, yeah. I see what you mean about 208 00:12:29,220 --> 00:12:35,580 the like how savoury it is. Yeah. Because it's weird, like, 209 00:12:35,610 --> 00:12:37,560 even though you've been saying that it's kind of hard to get 210 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:38,340 your head around. 211 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:40,680 Katasi E. Kironde: A none...a savoury banana. 212 00:12:40,740 --> 00:12:41,970 Lucy Dearlove: A completely savoury banana. 213 00:12:41,970 --> 00:12:46,560 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. But you know, when I went to Guadeloupe 214 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,480 to see one of my friends...they also...obviously, in the 215 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,780 Caribbean they have a green banana. And when I came back, I 216 00:12:51,780 --> 00:12:54,780 was adamant that it was the same and then actually I realised it 217 00:12:54,780 --> 00:12:57,990 wasn't because when I tried to boil it down and mash it it's a 218 00:12:57,990 --> 00:13:00,030 completely different variety that they have. 219 00:13:00,570 --> 00:13:02,190 Lucy Dearlove: Okay, it looks really similar? 220 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,620 Katasi E. Kironde: It looks a little bit similar and in fact, 221 00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:08,070 I think ours are fatter, have more water content. 222 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,480 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, cos the the texture of it is so sturdy. Like 223 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,060 you wouldn't think that something in the banana family 224 00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:18,150 could keep that much structure when it's cooked. Because 225 00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:20,490 bananas when you cook them they just like dissolve. 226 00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:21,540 Katasi E. Kironde: Exactly. 227 00:13:22,050 --> 00:13:27,120 Lucy Dearlove: And even plantain that is very soft. Yeah, but 228 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,060 yeah, it's much more...yeah, much more like almost like, I 229 00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:33,690 don't know, like polenta or something. Well, yeah, very 230 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:35,220 structural. 231 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,350 Katasi E. Kironde: Polenta's a good comparison. 232 00:13:38,940 --> 00:13:40,830 Lucy Dearlove: This is really good with the fish as well. 233 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:41,790 Katasi E. Kironde: Nice! 234 00:13:43,260 --> 00:13:44,490 Lucy Dearlove: So is this something that you would eat a 235 00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:44,940 lot? 236 00:13:47,220 --> 00:13:49,140 Katasi E. Kironde: Because of that process, you know, this 237 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:52,530 whole pounding process sometimes we would just make...I would 238 00:13:52,530 --> 00:13:56,220 leave it whole and just have it as katogo. My mum says when she 239 00:13:56,250 --> 00:13:58,140 when she's back in Uganda, that's all she eats, matooke. 240 00:13:58,500 --> 00:13:58,980 Just matooke. 241 00:13:59,010 --> 00:14:00,240 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: I don't eat anything else. 242 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,140 Somebody gives me rice, I think they are... 243 00:14:06,060 --> 00:14:06,810 Katasi E. Kironde: Not interested. 244 00:14:07,230 --> 00:14:08,880 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Because when...the last time I went home 245 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,290 in general I went home, I was in Uganda in January and my brother 246 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,880 was from the United States was at home and it was a lot of us 247 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,980 at the house. So like it would have cassava and we'll have our 248 00:14:22,980 --> 00:14:29,730 different yams and pumpkin and, and you name it and ugali and 249 00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:34,200 all that you know for dinner. And then you know they're asking 250 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,620 me, Elizabeth, what would you like? Matooke. And they will 251 00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:40,140 say, aren't you having any cassava? No. Aren't you having 252 00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:42,480 pumpkin? No, Aren't you having rice? No. 253 00:14:43,710 --> 00:14:44,820 Lucy Dearlove: You can get those anywhere! 254 00:14:44,850 --> 00:14:49,170 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Actually, my mother had a short 255 00:14:49,170 --> 00:14:49,770 cut. 256 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:52,890 Lucy Dearlove: An original short cut. 257 00:14:52,890 --> 00:14:54,510 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, I mean, she had so many children 258 00:14:54,510 --> 00:14:57,540 she had to cut out what she could cut. So like instead of 259 00:14:57,540 --> 00:15:01,710 going into the elaborate thing of putting you know, the banana 260 00:15:01,710 --> 00:15:04,860 stalk in the saucepan and all that... what she used to do to 261 00:15:04,860 --> 00:15:08,310 is just get a saucepan, put water in the saucepan, put a 262 00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:11,700 banana leaf in. Peel the matooke, wash them, throw them 263 00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:15,420 in the saucepan, wrap the matooke okay, with the banana 264 00:15:15,420 --> 00:15:18,870 leaf without using the banana fibers, you know? 265 00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:19,590 Lucy Dearlove: Okay, yeah. 266 00:15:19,620 --> 00:15:21,690 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And just cover it and boil it. And 267 00:15:21,690 --> 00:15:26,220 when it's finished, she'll just use the same banana leaf that 268 00:15:27,180 --> 00:15:31,290 she...that she put in originally and just use that to mash the 269 00:15:31,290 --> 00:15:35,010 matooke. Okay, okay. Yeah, that's it. That was... that is 270 00:15:35,010 --> 00:15:35,940 the easiest way. 271 00:15:36,510 --> 00:15:40,770 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. And I think that...like my generation, 272 00:15:40,770 --> 00:15:44,220 people are not living in the sort of same housing that can 273 00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:46,980 afford them to have an outdoor space where you can do all of 274 00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:51,480 this and put it on the stove, or the charcoal stove. So people 275 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,260 are adapting. And I remember in the 00s...like in the 00s 276 00:15:55,260 --> 00:15:57,960 somebody came up with Tooke powder, which was meant to be 277 00:15:58,140 --> 00:16:02,280 instant matooke powder, you know? Yeah. But for special 278 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,690 occasions, you know, you hire somebody or you go out and you 279 00:16:06,690 --> 00:16:08,220 make the more elaborate one. 280 00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:10,950 Lucy Dearlove: How did the Tooke powder go down? 281 00:16:11,070 --> 00:16:14,160 Katasi E. Kironde: I tried it, it wasn't the same. You can't 282 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:14,880 cheat everything. 283 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,340 Lucy Dearlove: It's like instant mash, it's never gonna be... 284 00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:19,260 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, or microwave oats. It's not the 285 00:16:19,260 --> 00:16:19,650 same. 286 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,450 Lucy Dearlove: Sometimes the shortcut is okay. Sometimes 287 00:16:24,450 --> 00:16:26,760 you've just got to you've got to do the whole thing. 288 00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:29,220 Katasi E. Kironde: One of the stories that my mother tells me 289 00:16:29,850 --> 00:16:34,650 is about posho, the cornmeal that you turn into...you add 290 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,280 water to and you pound it. Like the polenta, but like the East 291 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,500 African one? Was it during the war mum? 292 00:16:40,530 --> 00:17:56,250 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, no, there wasn't during the war. It was a famine when, when I was a little girl, and there was no matooke. You know, so the Buganda started to eat ugali from Kenya. And they also learned how to use maize to make the cornmeal. So the Buganda themselves had this concept in their head that everything must be wrapped in a banana leaf. I'm not kidding! My sister does it and I really, I mean, I haven't told her, I just look at her. I think she's crazy. My mother does it as well. So they they prepare the cornmeal...like everybody like the Kenyans and the Nigerians and the other African people add water and stir stir. They just put the hot water on, stir it, cook it and serve with it. But what the Buganda did...to them their concept of food without it being wrapped in a banana leaf was something else so they started preparing this thing and wrapping it in a banana leaf and going through the whole process as you would prepare the matooke. 293 00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:57,780 Lucy Dearlove: Oh wow! 294 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,020 Katasi E. Kironde: Almost reminiscing what they were 295 00:18:01,020 --> 00:18:01,560 missing, you know? 296 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,750 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, like the ritual of preparing it 297 00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:04,500 Katasi E. Kironde: Yes, yeah. 298 00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:06,870 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: But now it's become tradition 299 00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:09,780 because at my sister's house, she prepared, they prepare 300 00:18:09,930 --> 00:18:14,280 matooke and they prepare this ugali thing wrapped in banana 301 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:21,690 leaf. And I said to her, what is this? Because I don't like it, I 302 00:18:21,690 --> 00:18:24,810 don't like it wrapped in banana leaf. I like it the way you just 303 00:18:24,810 --> 00:18:28,500 prepare it on the fire and serve it. And they think...when I say 304 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:31,290 I don't want to I don't want to eat that they think I'm crazy! 305 00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:34,800 Katasi E. Kironde: But even then, the matooke came back but 306 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,300 people continued with this elaborate process and it's just 307 00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:42,840 not necessary. I don't...because you know how the leaves when 308 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,390 like they steam into the posho and it just takes from a 309 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,050 slightly different texture or like taste. I just don't think 310 00:18:49,050 --> 00:18:52,140 it's necessary and it's like, ugali, posho or whatever you 311 00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:55,320 want to call it is like our pasta, it's like instant. Why 312 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,430 must I complicate it? 313 00:18:56,430 --> 00:18:59,460 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then you have the green, the 314 00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:00,870 green from the leaves 315 00:19:00,870 --> 00:19:02,520 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. And then it's no longer white. 316 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,020 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. And no longer white 317 00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:08,130 Katasi E. Kironde: It's one of my favorite stories my mum 318 00:19:08,130 --> 00:19:08,700 tells. 319 00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:12,510 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And at one time, it was frowned upon 320 00:19:12,510 --> 00:19:14,850 for anybody to eat ugali. 321 00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:15,870 Lucy Dearlove: Oh really! 322 00:19:15,870 --> 00:19:19,710 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Oh yeah, dogs' food. Yeah but that 323 00:19:19,710 --> 00:19:21,780 famine taught them something! 324 00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:23,640 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah but literally like that's what 325 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,920 people would give their dogs Oh, yeah. 326 00:19:27,870 --> 00:19:29,910 Lucy Dearlove: But it's so funny, that something that came 327 00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:32,370 out of necessity, like that method of preparation that 328 00:19:32,370 --> 00:19:34,830 people still do it. Yeah, that's so interesting. 329 00:19:34,830 --> 00:19:37,920 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Incredible. Because I remember 330 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,790 my mother, even if they were not getting...no guests or visitors 331 00:19:41,790 --> 00:19:47,910 coming, she would prepare dinner by say like three o'clock. The 332 00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:51,240 dinner would be on the fire already. And she would just put 333 00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:58,350 chunks of wood, you know, firewood to keep the food warm, 334 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,210 and steam it for a longer period. And funny enough, if 335 00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:08,940 you've eaten matooke that has been steamed...resteamed, it 336 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:12,600 tastes quite different compared to when you just boil and serve. 337 00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:14,430 Lucy Dearlove: What's the difference? 338 00:20:15,540 --> 00:20:17,310 Katasi E. Kironde: It's a bit hard, harder, isn't it? It's a 339 00:20:17,310 --> 00:20:17,760 bit tougher. 340 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,150 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, it's hard. Funnily enough, when 341 00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:24,990 you...when it's been steamed, and you've used the banana 342 00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:30,000 leaves, it actually doesn't look yellow. It goes a bit orangey, 343 00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:34,380 or something like that, and softer. You know? 344 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,870 Katasi E. Kironde: And I also think the way that it served 345 00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:40,560 like and Uganda we'll say "okujjula", you know, to serve. 346 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,220 It...that's also a very elaborate process. You know, 347 00:20:44,220 --> 00:20:46,350 it's not something like, oh, just put this on. And, you know, 348 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,100 remember, there's always layers. Yeah, so people will sit down on 349 00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:53,070 like, one of....like my grandmother's kitchen, one of 350 00:20:53,070 --> 00:20:55,830 those those mats in the corner, the omukeeka, you'd lay that 351 00:20:55,860 --> 00:20:58,860 out. And there's actually an event, isn't it mummy? 352 00:20:58,860 --> 00:21:00,900 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Oh, god, it's an event. Yeah. I 353 00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:06,090 mean, so like, traditionally, we didn't use tables, we all sat 354 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:11,280 down. You know, so like, they'll bring that big parcel of food, 355 00:21:11,310 --> 00:21:14,580 you're gonna, you know, and put it in the middle somewhere, you 356 00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:22,980 know, you have, you have papyrus mats, you know. Yeah, so every 357 00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:27,300 house had that. It's a more like a table, you know, but they used 358 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:28,350 to put it on the floor 359 00:21:28,350 --> 00:21:29,100 Katasi E. Kironde: Like a runner. 360 00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:31,440 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Like a runner runner, and everybody 361 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:37,620 would sit round this big meal. Before the Europeans came, and 362 00:21:37,620 --> 00:21:41,760 before we got plates, they used to use those banana parcels I 363 00:21:42,030 --> 00:21:45,960 told you. So everybody's like, if you, if it was 10 of you in 364 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,760 the household, they will make 10 little parcels. They put it on 365 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,180 the food, you know, within the the steaming process, they put 366 00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:57,720 it in there. So when the food was ready, the vegetables were 367 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,140 ready. So when you took...when you were ready to serve, you 368 00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:06,270 take your little parcels of meat or groundnut sauce or whatever, 369 00:22:06,270 --> 00:22:10,530 something and put them in a basket and put it outside. And 370 00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:15,900 then you take your big parcel and put it in the middle of this 371 00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:19,710 big sort of...this one. And then everybody will sit around. And 372 00:22:19,710 --> 00:22:25,170 then you'll find that the mother or the adults would serve the 373 00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:29,640 food. They didn't expose the whole thing, you open half of 374 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,720 it. And during the process while they were preparing, they used 375 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,610 to cut little banana sort of squares. Which were used as 376 00:22:38,610 --> 00:22:44,010 spoons. So you, you take it from the big parcel, you fold it and 377 00:22:44,010 --> 00:22:47,190 you sort of use that to take off the 378 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:47,970 Lucy Dearlove: Like a scoop? 379 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,980 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, scoop. And just give it to 380 00:22:50,010 --> 00:22:54,840 everybody who is who is sitting around. And then the bus, you 381 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:00,030 know, the little parcels you've made of like vegetables, or 382 00:23:00,030 --> 00:23:04,020 whatever you're eating with the food. You give each person one 383 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:10,680 of those. One time I had a party in Uganda. And I think we had 384 00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:14,880 about...we had a lot of guests with it. I think we had about 385 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:22,230 200 guests, but each guests got one of those Luwombos. Everybody 386 00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:23,460 got one. Yeah. 387 00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:27,300 Lucy Dearlove: So how long would that have taken to prepare 200? 388 00:23:27,330 --> 00:23:28,920 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: What do you do...you hire people! 389 00:23:33,570 --> 00:23:36,840 Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, but even now at my grandma's house, 390 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,940 if we have like a Sunday meal...you know, again, it will 391 00:23:41,940 --> 00:23:45,330 be served when everyone's gathered. Yeah, it's not, you 392 00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:49,170 know, help yourself and then wait for next person. We just 393 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,550 honour the process I think. 394 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,860 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: The beauty about it was cos there's 395 00:23:52,860 --> 00:23:55,020 people who don't eat meat, there are people who don't eat 396 00:23:55,020 --> 00:23:57,480 groundnut sauce, there are people who don't eat that. So 397 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,830 you would make those parcels according to the preferences of 398 00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:05,670 the family. So like if somebody didn't eat meat, you prepare 399 00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:10,020 groundnut sauce or you prepare something else and so and they 400 00:24:10,020 --> 00:24:14,010 will mark the parcels and say this is for Katasi because she 401 00:24:14,010 --> 00:24:17,700 doesn't eat meat. So this is her fish and this is so and so's 402 00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:18,600 groundnut. And this...Yeah. 403 00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:21,840 Lucy Dearlove: How would they...how would they mark them, 404 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:22,680 would they just write on them? 405 00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:25,080 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, they use the banana... 406 00:24:25,290 --> 00:24:25,860 Katasi E. Kironde: The fibre 407 00:24:25,890 --> 00:24:28,740 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: The fibre...and when they tie it 408 00:24:28,830 --> 00:24:33,210 around to make a parcel because they make a parcel. They may put 409 00:24:33,210 --> 00:24:39,240 a knot or three knot on it on one of the, the ties to make 410 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,750 sure that two is Katasi's groundnut sauce, yeah. Three is 411 00:24:42,750 --> 00:24:45,690 on so and so's you know fish and wherever. 412 00:24:47,820 --> 00:24:50,039 Katasi E. Kironde: Culturally in Buganda culture, if somebody 413 00:24:50,092 --> 00:24:52,998 finds you eating, they don't...they don't have to greet 414 00:24:53,051 --> 00:24:55,851 them. You can literally just...you don't greet people 415 00:24:55,904 --> 00:24:57,120 eating. Okay, you know? 416 00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:59,010 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. And then you don't..when you're 417 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,490 during meal time. You're not supposed to be chit chatting. 418 00:25:03,330 --> 00:25:05,550 You know, it's like, well, like the English don't talk at the 419 00:25:05,550 --> 00:25:08,760 table. Don't speak during a meal. 420 00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:09,960 Lucy Dearlove: But for a nicer reason? 421 00:25:10,290 --> 00:25:11,700 Katasi E. Kironde: For a nicer reason, yeah. 422 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,130 I think I really got into cooking when I moved back to 423 00:25:17,130 --> 00:25:24,960 Uganda after uni. My dad's...he's a chef, and he 424 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,190 writes about food. So he was doing classes. And I said, Oh, 425 00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:32,610 can I can I join in? And actually, the times I'd spend 426 00:25:32,610 --> 00:25:35,490 with him when I was there, he'd...he'd be doing reviews, so 427 00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:39,060 he might take my siblings and I so I got an interest in it. And 428 00:25:39,060 --> 00:25:42,240 then when I did the classes with him, I think that's when it 429 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,140 really took off for me...like not took off, but I really got 430 00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:50,580 into it. And I liked experimenting. And when I moved 431 00:25:50,580 --> 00:25:52,680 to Uganda at that point, I was vegetarian. 432 00:25:52,770 --> 00:25:53,520 Lucy Dearlove: Ah, okay, 433 00:25:53,550 --> 00:25:55,902 Katasi E. Kironde: Which was interesting because one of my 434 00:25:55,962 --> 00:25:59,581 uncle, one of my late uncles would say, you know, we can get 435 00:25:59,641 --> 00:26:03,321 you medicine for that. We can get you medicine. I'm like, no, 436 00:26:03,381 --> 00:26:06,940 no, I'm not allergic to meat. I'm just choosing not to. And 437 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,895 what's ironic is that traditionally, Buganda, we 438 00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:13,816 didn't eat meat in the way that we do now, as much as we did you 439 00:26:13,876 --> 00:26:17,254 know, it was a Sunday...I remember growing up it being a 440 00:26:17,314 --> 00:26:21,175 Sunday affair, you know, once a week, you ate what you...I don't 441 00:26:21,235 --> 00:26:24,552 want to say you ate what you caught but, you know, your 442 00:26:24,613 --> 00:26:28,051 chicken...the chicken was slaughtered there, it wasn't as 443 00:26:28,111 --> 00:26:31,911 mass produced. So it was funny that people made such a big deal 444 00:26:31,971 --> 00:26:33,540 about me being vegetarian. 445 00:26:45,030 --> 00:26:49,543 Every individual belongs to a certain clan or Totem and it's 446 00:26:49,618 --> 00:26:54,207 patriarchal in the sense that you follow the man's line. It's 447 00:26:54,282 --> 00:26:58,645 how the Kingdom, the Bganda kingdom is divided. Folk tales 448 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,556 and traditions around my totem or my clan, which is 449 00:27:02,632 --> 00:27:07,295 grasshoppers. I'm not to eat it, because if I do, then I might 450 00:27:07,371 --> 00:27:11,583 lose my blessings. Or I might get an adverse reaction to 451 00:27:11,658 --> 00:27:15,420 eating grasshoppers, which are a massive delicacy. 452 00:27:16,050 --> 00:27:17,100 Lucy Dearlove: Wow. Okay. 453 00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:19,980 Katasi E. Kironde: In Uganda. And then everyone has...people 454 00:27:20,010 --> 00:27:24,030 have names that are specific. So you've got grasshopper names. My 455 00:27:24,030 --> 00:27:27,840 mum's a monkey. So she's got like, monkey, a monkey name. But 456 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,800 yeah. So when you meet, someone they'll tell you their name. If 457 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,560 they have a name that you sort of know about your brothers 458 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,100 have, you couldn't possibly ever have a relationship with them, 459 00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:42,330 because somewhere down the line, you are related. So it's quite 460 00:27:42,330 --> 00:27:45,270 sophisticated. And also it's said that the King who 461 00:27:45,270 --> 00:27:49,170 introduced them was also trying to preserve the animals because 462 00:27:49,170 --> 00:27:51,120 then you wouldn't consume your animal. 463 00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:52,140 Lucy Dearlove: Right, right. 464 00:27:52,590 --> 00:27:54,990 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: One time I met this wonderful guy. 465 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,530 And his name was Kabango. So I came home and I asked my mother, 466 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:06,390 asked my aunt. I said, this guy is so lovely. His name is 467 00:28:06,990 --> 00:28:11,820 Kabango. He said, What? I said his name is Kabango. Can I go 468 00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:15,990 out with him? They said, No, you cannot. You are not allowed. 469 00:28:18,030 --> 00:28:19,200 Lucy Dearlove: And they knew straightaway? 470 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:19,680 Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. 471 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,750 Lucy Dearlove: Lecker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy 472 00:28:30,750 --> 00:28:37,320 Dearlove. Thanks so much to Katasi E. Kironde and Nakigudde 473 00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:40,170 Elizabeth Kibalama, my guests on this episode. 474 00:28:41,490 --> 00:28:44,700 Katasi's written for outlets like Peckham Peculiar and Black 475 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:48,630 Ballad. And she was also a co host on the Unsavoury Ethnic 476 00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:52,680 Types podcast, who did a great episode about Ugandan food that 477 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,050 I really recommend listening to, I'll link to in the show notes. 478 00:28:55,050 --> 00:29:00,120 So you can also listen. Katasi also guest curated a recent 479 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,510 issue of Fair Magazine, which is a magazine that focuses each 480 00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:06,990 issue on a particular city, the one Katasi did was all about 481 00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:09,990 Kampala. I just checked, and it's actually currently reduced 482 00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:13,050 on the Fare website, so you can still buy a copy for an even 483 00:29:13,050 --> 00:29:16,830 cheaper price. I'll also link to that in the show notes. I love 484 00:29:16,830 --> 00:29:19,590 this magazine. I learned so much from it, Katasi did an amazing 485 00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:21,690 job. The design of the photography is so beautiful, 486 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,140 highly recommended. Katasi actually sent me a copy of this 487 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:27,930 when it first came out. And that's what planted the seed for 488 00:29:27,930 --> 00:29:32,430 the idea for this episode. We actually talked a bit more about 489 00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:35,370 the magazine and a couple of specific pieces in it because 490 00:29:35,370 --> 00:29:38,760 there's some really interesting ideas there. And those bits of 491 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,660 the conversation that I had with Katasi are going to be available 492 00:29:42,660 --> 00:29:46,470 on the Patreon bonus episode of the podcast which comes out 493 00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:50,010 monthly on the Patreon page. You can get access to those by 494 00:29:50,010 --> 00:29:51,990 signing up for three pound a month at 495 00:29:52,050 --> 00:29:56,790 patreon.com/leckerpodcast. Other ways you can support Lecker? 496 00:29:57,540 --> 00:30:00,480 Tell your friends, please spread the word...rate and review on 497 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,890 Apple podcasts or Spotify. Buy merch from the Lecker Big Cartel 498 00:30:04,890 --> 00:30:09,420 site, but generally just enjoy and appreciate the podcast and 499 00:30:09,420 --> 00:30:12,360 share it if you have, that means the world to me. 500 00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:18,630 All the music in this episode is by Blue Dot Sessions. And thanks 501 00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:22,500 as always to Ben McDonald, who did a beautiful illustration of 502 00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:25,770 Katasi and her mum for this episode. You can see that on the 503 00:30:25,770 --> 00:30:31,320 Lecker Instagram and Twitter @leckerpodcast. I'll be back in 504 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,380 your podcast feeds next month. Thanks for listening.