Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove. This month:
Matooke Goes With Everything
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You know, when you say
that...if...you ask if it tastes different here, compared to
Uganda? The thing is in Uganda, they don't boil it, just boil it
as we boil it here. So what they do, they have a basket like
this, and they get the fibre from the banana leaf. And they
put it cross, cross in the basket. Then they get a banana,
another, a big banana leaf, depending on how many people
you're cooking for. And you put it, you fold it and you put it
in the basket. So you peel your matooke, and you put it in this
banana leaf and make a big parcel. Yeah? Using the banana
fibres, you tie it up. And then the way they cook it, then
they...put like...it's been modernized now. Before they used
to take the stalk from the banana itself, you know, the
banana, the bunch and put it under the sauce...underneath in
the saucepan, then put all... sort of making a steamer. Yeah?
Katasi E. Kironde: A natural steamer, yeah.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then they will put this parcel
on top of the stalks, you know? And then you use the banana
leaves and sort of cover it up, put it in a saucepan and cover,
people use about six or seven green ones. And then you boil
it. To get the aroma of the banana leaf.
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then after it's been cooked,
they don't mash it with a masher like we do here. They use their
hands and sort of another banana leaf. And they use their hands
to mash it within the, you know, in the parcel. I don't know how
the women know - or whoever's cooking know - that the...I
don't know how they know that is mashed enough and it has no
lumps in it. But they do it because they don't open the
banana leaf to see if it's soft, or if it's ready or not. And
then once they've done that, they put it back in the saucepan
and go over the whole process again, of re-steaming it so that
way it becomes softer and yellow. And it takes more aroma
from the banana leaves.
Katasi E. Kironde: It's steaming, it comes off...it's
served to you steaming, you know as opposed to here...you know
it's a little bit lumpier. And also, I feel like it's the
original slow cooker, because these...four hours it might take
just make this...
Lucy Dearlove: Just over this very low heat, just the ashes,
yeah.
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah,
My name is Katasi E. Kironde. I'm from West London via
Kampala.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: My name is Elizabeth Kibalama. I'm
Katasi's mother. And actually, same thing. I grew up in Uganda
now been here in England for quite some...a number of years.
Lucy Dearlove: So when I asked...when I asked Katasti if
she would speak to me for Lecker, basically the first
thing you said was like "Do you want to speak to my mum, as
well, because I learned everything I know from her?" So
maybe you could just tell me a bit about how you learned to
cook Elizabeth. You know, what did you grow up eating?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You know something, it was really
amazing. I think I learned cooking when I was about six
years old. I could make the groundnut sauce. So what you're
gonna have some now! Yeah, yeah, I was allowed to do groundnut
sauce. So I think basically, that was the first thing I was
allowed to cook. Because by then I was living with an uncle of
mine, you know, sort of, in sort of in the village. We used to
grow our own food, like tomatoes and all the vegetables and
everything. One just had to go to the garden to pick up the
tomatoes and onions, and you've come home and you cut up the
onions and...and funnily enough, we never fried anything at all,
we never used any oils at all, you know, it was all natural.
And then as far as matooke was concerned - this was really
crazy - because there is a special knife the people at home
use. It's sort of hooked, you know, at the top here like this
and it's got a wooden, a wooden handle. As they got...that knife
gets older, the wooden handle breaks off. So they tend to give
that to the children to learn to peel so that they don't cut
themselves and it was always blunt.
Lucy Dearlove: So much harder?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, but anyway, I think they just
didn't want us to cut ourselves, you know, so many of us...we
struggled, but we eventually got into the idea of learning how to
peel the matooke. And then, of course, by then I could watch
how my aunt used to, you know, to prepare the matooke and all
that.
Lucy Dearlove: And could you explain what matooke is?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: It's a form of...a banana. But this
one is not eaten as a fruit, it;s eaten as a staple food,
like you could eat sweet potato or mashed potato, or something
like that.
Katasi E. Kironde: If I'm very specific, in Buganda, like the
ethnic group that we are from the centre and around Kampala,
many people will say like "a meal isn't a meal without
matooke". Like you haven't eaten, if you've eaten anything
else, you've eaten rice, sweet potato, chapati and there's no
matooke...it's not food, as they would say!
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: In actual fact, they always
say.....when they say food, which is emmere, in Uganda, they
mean matooke.
Lucy Dearlove: Okay, right!
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. The others are additionals.
Yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: So if someone says that, you know, they mean
Matooke, wow.
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah.
There's really no matooke, there's no food.
It's very specific to the, to the Great Lakes region. So you'd
find it in Congo and Rwanda. I think in Rwanda they call it
Etooke, yeah, in Tanzania, especially around...I mean,
Uganda is landlocked. So anywhere around, really, you'll
find it.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Literally all around around Lake Victoria.
Katasi E. Kironde: We buy it in Shepherds Bush...do you get it
from Strawberry Hill, from Strawberry Hill?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah from Strawberry Hill.
Katasi E. Kironde: Strawberry Hill, very specific shop within
the market. But it's cheaper to buy in boxes, but we would never
finish a whole box. You can get better prices in South London
and East London and where there's more clusters of Ugandan
people. And if you go too late, sometimes that we have to call
them up and say, Oh, can you just hold them back for us? And
we might not find any.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, they know us now.
There is something called Luwombo and that is vegetables
or meat prepared in a banana leaf. They get a basket like
this. And then they get the young of the plant, the banana
leaf without holes in it, and they would smoke it. You know,
they pass it over the fire and it becomes more like plasticky.
And then they fold it, put it in the basket, then you can put
your...depending on what you want to cook. You could cook
meat or fish or groundnut sauce or mushroom sauce. Literally
anything you know. I mean it goes with anything.
Katasi E. Kironde: But I think matooke is one of these...I
don't know, one of these foods that just pairs well, with so
many different flavours. You can have it with a meat...like
matooke nyama which is literally matooke and meat...it's just
like, divine because it just soaks up the sauce and I find it
that it's best eaten with your hands like for for like...I'm
not gonna make you use your hands Lucy! But just to soak up
the last bit of gravy and because matooke doesn't have an
overpowering taste. So it just blends well with everything.
When I'm in Uganda I like to have it with offals. A lot of
our sauces are blended with curry powder, a bit of Royco,
which is just like the super mix, and tomatoes and fried
onions. So like a bit of...yeah, bit of a curry sauce, really and
again, this curry is symbolic of the South Asian influence. You
can have matooke in so many different ways like Katogo which
would be like a mash up or melange of beans, but you'd have
it whole so you don't have to mash it. And that's the one I
make the most because I don't have to, I don't have to sort of
pound it. It's like peel, boil and then mix it up with your
bean sauce.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Bean sauce or groundnut sauce or
meat, yeah.
Katasi E. Kironde: You just literally...so at an angle you
just peel at an angle and then there's lots of sap so you've
got to put oil in your hands. Yeah, they're really sappy.
Let's take out the matooke. Well, we have shortcuts. So my
mum's... mum taught me how to make it really but basically you
put it in a pressure cooker, just to speed up the process
after you've peeled it and then take it out the pressure cooker
and then mash it with like your regular potato masher. And
then...this part is quite intricate...do you want to
explain?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: So this is what we do can you see?
Lucy Dearlove: I'm just going to take a photo!
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: She wants to take a photo! So what
you do, once you've done, you've mashed it, you use a foil, and
you put it in a foil paper and wrap it up. You get a casserole
dish, and you get like a kitchen cloth. And you wet it and wring
the water out.
Lucy Dearlove: OK, so inside here...under the....this is the
dish cloth you describe?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, this is the dish cloth. And so
you just do it like this. And sit that kitchen cloth in the
casserole dish. Then you take your parcel of matooke in foil
and put it inside. Wrap it up. So it keeps it moist.
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. So kind of like like the banana leaves.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, this is sort of imitating the
original sort of thing. And then
Lucy Dearlove: Oh wow, okay,
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. If you've got a cover for the
casserole dish, you cover it, and you just stick it in the
oven. You know, at a very low heat.
Katasi E. Kironde: I hope this is warm enough. I'll just take
some out for you. So we've got the groundnut sauce. And we'll
put some fish in there. Because traditionally, you put some fish
in or you could put mushrooms.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: So what we doto improvise here
because we can't get the dry fish we get from home. We use
mackerel. Smoked mackerel, yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. And that's a similar...a similar flavour?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. As long as it's dried fish,
yeah.
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. You can get dry fish in Shepherds Bush,
but it'll be...
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You have to soak it. And sometimes
it's hard. And all that. Though if we went...if we were bothered
to go to East London, we can get the fresh fish. Tilapia from
Uganda.
Katasi E. Kironde: Is that...they're just spring
greens aren't they?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, no, that is spinach
Katasi E. Kironde: Oh, spinach. But again, we have so much
vegetation in Uganda. That you...
Lucy Dearlove: So lots of greens?
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, exactly.
Lucy Dearlove: So I think a bit of this and then live in get it
in?
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, exactly. Yes, precisely.
Lucy Dearlove: Mm hmm. Okay, yeah. I see what you mean about
the like how savoury it is. Yeah. Because it's weird, like,
even though you've been saying that it's kind of hard to get
your head around.
Katasi E. Kironde: A none...a savoury banana.
Lucy Dearlove: A completely savoury banana.
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. But you know, when I went to Guadeloupe
to see one of my friends...they also...obviously, in the
Caribbean they have a green banana. And when I came back, I
was adamant that it was the same and then actually I realised it
wasn't because when I tried to boil it down and mash it it's a
completely different variety that they have.
Lucy Dearlove: Okay, it looks really similar?
Katasi E. Kironde: It looks a little bit similar and in fact,
I think ours are fatter, have more water content.
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, cos the the texture of it is so sturdy. Like
you wouldn't think that something in the banana family
could keep that much structure when it's cooked. Because
bananas when you cook them they just like dissolve.
Katasi E. Kironde: Exactly.
Lucy Dearlove: And even plantain that is very soft. Yeah, but
yeah, it's much more...yeah, much more like almost like, I
don't know, like polenta or something. Well, yeah, very
structural.
Katasi E. Kironde: Polenta's a good comparison.
Lucy Dearlove: This is really good with the fish as well.
Katasi E. Kironde: Nice!
Lucy Dearlove: So is this something that you would eat a
lot?
Katasi E. Kironde: Because of that process, you know, this
whole pounding process sometimes we would just make...I would
leave it whole and just have it as katogo. My mum says when she
when she's back in Uganda, that's all she eats, matooke.
Just matooke.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: I don't eat anything else.
Somebody gives me rice, I think they are...
Katasi E. Kironde: Not interested.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Because when...the last time I went home
in general I went home, I was in Uganda in January and my brother
was from the United States was at home and it was a lot of us
at the house. So like it would have cassava and we'll have our
different yams and pumpkin and, and you name it and ugali and
all that you know for dinner. And then you know they're asking
me, Elizabeth, what would you like? Matooke. And they will
say, aren't you having any cassava? No. Aren't you having
pumpkin? No, Aren't you having rice? No.
Lucy Dearlove: You can get those anywhere!
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Actually, my mother had a short
cut.
Lucy Dearlove: An original short cut.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, I mean, she had so many children
she had to cut out what she could cut. So like instead of
going into the elaborate thing of putting you know, the banana
stalk in the saucepan and all that... what she used to do to
is just get a saucepan, put water in the saucepan, put a
banana leaf in. Peel the matooke, wash them, throw them
in the saucepan, wrap the matooke okay, with the banana
leaf without using the banana fibers, you know?
Lucy Dearlove: Okay, yeah.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And just cover it and boil it. And
when it's finished, she'll just use the same banana leaf that
she...that she put in originally and just use that to mash the
matooke. Okay, okay. Yeah, that's it. That was... that is
the easiest way.
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. And I think that...like my generation,
people are not living in the sort of same housing that can
afford them to have an outdoor space where you can do all of
this and put it on the stove, or the charcoal stove. So people
are adapting. And I remember in the 00s...like in the 00s
somebody came up with Tooke powder, which was meant to be
instant matooke powder, you know? Yeah. But for special
occasions, you know, you hire somebody or you go out and you
make the more elaborate one.
Lucy Dearlove: How did the Tooke powder go down?
Katasi E. Kironde: I tried it, it wasn't the same. You can't
cheat everything.
Lucy Dearlove: It's like instant mash, it's never gonna be...
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, or microwave oats. It's not the
same.
Lucy Dearlove: Sometimes the shortcut is okay. Sometimes
you've just got to you've got to do the whole thing.
Katasi E. Kironde: One of the stories that my mother tells me
is about posho, the cornmeal that you turn into...you add
water to and you pound it. Like the polenta, but like the East
African one? Was it during the war mum?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, no, there wasn't during the war. It was a famine when, when I was a little girl, and there was no matooke. You know, so the Buganda started to eat ugali from Kenya. And they also learned how to use maize to make the cornmeal. So the Buganda themselves had this concept in their head that everything must be wrapped in a banana leaf. I'm not kidding! My sister does it and I really, I mean, I haven't told her, I just look at her. I think she's crazy. My mother does it as well. So they they prepare the cornmeal...like everybody like the Kenyans and the Nigerians and the other African people add water and stir stir. They just put the hot water on, stir it, cook it and serve with it. But what the Buganda did...to them their concept of food without it being wrapped in a banana leaf was something else so they started preparing this thing and wrapping it in a banana leaf and going through the whole process as you would prepare the matooke.
Lucy Dearlove: Oh wow!
Katasi E. Kironde: Almost reminiscing what they were
missing, you know?
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, like the ritual of preparing it
Katasi E. Kironde: Yes, yeah.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: But now it's become tradition
because at my sister's house, she prepared, they prepare
matooke and they prepare this ugali thing wrapped in banana
leaf. And I said to her, what is this? Because I don't like it, I
don't like it wrapped in banana leaf. I like it the way you just
prepare it on the fire and serve it. And they think...when I say
I don't want to I don't want to eat that they think I'm crazy!
Katasi E. Kironde: But even then, the matooke came back but
people continued with this elaborate process and it's just
not necessary. I don't...because you know how the leaves when
like they steam into the posho and it just takes from a
slightly different texture or like taste. I just don't think
it's necessary and it's like, ugali, posho or whatever you
want to call it is like our pasta, it's like instant. Why
must I complicate it?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then you have the green, the
green from the leaves
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. And then it's no longer white.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. And no longer white
Katasi E. Kironde: It's one of my favorite stories my mum
tells.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And at one time, it was frowned upon
for anybody to eat ugali.
Lucy Dearlove: Oh really!
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Oh yeah, dogs' food. Yeah but that
famine taught them something!
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah but literally like that's what
people would give their dogs Oh, yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: But it's so funny, that something that came
out of necessity, like that method of preparation that
people still do it. Yeah, that's so interesting.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Incredible. Because I remember
my mother, even if they were not getting...no guests or visitors
coming, she would prepare dinner by say like three o'clock. The
dinner would be on the fire already. And she would just put
chunks of wood, you know, firewood to keep the food warm,
and steam it for a longer period. And funny enough, if
you've eaten matooke that has been steamed...resteamed, it
tastes quite different compared to when you just boil and serve.
Lucy Dearlove: What's the difference?
Katasi E. Kironde: It's a bit hard, harder, isn't it? It's a
bit tougher.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, it's hard. Funnily enough, when
you...when it's been steamed, and you've used the banana
leaves, it actually doesn't look yellow. It goes a bit orangey,
or something like that, and softer. You know?
Katasi E. Kironde: And I also think the way that it served
like and Uganda we'll say "okujjula", you know, to serve.
It...that's also a very elaborate process. You know,
it's not something like, oh, just put this on. And, you know,
remember, there's always layers. Yeah, so people will sit down on
like, one of....like my grandmother's kitchen, one of
those those mats in the corner, the omukeeka, you'd lay that
out. And there's actually an event, isn't it mummy?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Oh, god, it's an event. Yeah. I
mean, so like, traditionally, we didn't use tables, we all sat
down. You know, so like, they'll bring that big parcel of food,
you're gonna, you know, and put it in the middle somewhere, you
know, you have, you have papyrus mats, you know. Yeah, so every
house had that. It's a more like a table, you know, but they used
to put it on the floor
Katasi E. Kironde: Like a runner.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Like a runner runner, and everybody
would sit round this big meal. Before the Europeans came, and
before we got plates, they used to use those banana parcels I
told you. So everybody's like, if you, if it was 10 of you in
the household, they will make 10 little parcels. They put it on
the food, you know, within the the steaming process, they put
it in there. So when the food was ready, the vegetables were
ready. So when you took...when you were ready to serve, you
take your little parcels of meat or groundnut sauce or whatever,
something and put them in a basket and put it outside. And
then you take your big parcel and put it in the middle of this
big sort of...this one. And then everybody will sit around. And
then you'll find that the mother or the adults would serve the
food. They didn't expose the whole thing, you open half of
it. And during the process while they were preparing, they used
to cut little banana sort of squares. Which were used as
spoons. So you, you take it from the big parcel, you fold it and
you sort of use that to take off the
Lucy Dearlove: Like a scoop?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, scoop. And just give it to
everybody who is who is sitting around. And then the bus, you
know, the little parcels you've made of like vegetables, or
whatever you're eating with the food. You give each person one
of those. One time I had a party in Uganda. And I think we had
about...we had a lot of guests with it. I think we had about
200 guests, but each guests got one of those Luwombos. Everybody
got one. Yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: So how long would that have taken to prepare 200?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: What do you do...you hire people!
Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, but even now at my grandma's house,
if we have like a Sunday meal...you know, again, it will
be served when everyone's gathered. Yeah, it's not, you
know, help yourself and then wait for next person. We just
honour the process I think.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: The beauty about it was cos there's
people who don't eat meat, there are people who don't eat
groundnut sauce, there are people who don't eat that. So
you would make those parcels according to the preferences of
the family. So like if somebody didn't eat meat, you prepare
groundnut sauce or you prepare something else and so and they
will mark the parcels and say this is for Katasi because she
doesn't eat meat. So this is her fish and this is so and so's
groundnut. And this...Yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: How would they...how would they mark them,
would they just write on them?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, they use the banana...
Katasi E. Kironde: The fibre
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: The fibre...and when they tie it
around to make a parcel because they make a parcel. They may put
a knot or three knot on it on one of the, the ties to make
sure that two is Katasi's groundnut sauce, yeah. Three is
on so and so's you know fish and wherever.
Katasi E. Kironde: Culturally in Buganda culture, if somebody
finds you eating, they don't...they don't have to greet
them. You can literally just...you don't greet people
eating. Okay, you know?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. And then you don't..when you're
during meal time. You're not supposed to be chit chatting.
You know, it's like, well, like the English don't talk at the
table. Don't speak during a meal.
Lucy Dearlove: But for a nicer reason?
Katasi E. Kironde: For a nicer reason, yeah.
I think I really got into cooking when I moved back to
Uganda after uni. My dad's...he's a chef, and he
writes about food. So he was doing classes. And I said, Oh,
can I can I join in? And actually, the times I'd spend
with him when I was there, he'd...he'd be doing reviews, so
he might take my siblings and I so I got an interest in it. And
then when I did the classes with him, I think that's when it
really took off for me...like not took off, but I really got
into it. And I liked experimenting. And when I moved
to Uganda at that point, I was vegetarian.
Lucy Dearlove: Ah, okay,
Katasi E. Kironde: Which was interesting because one of my
uncle, one of my late uncles would say, you know, we can get
you medicine for that. We can get you medicine. I'm like, no,
no, I'm not allergic to meat. I'm just choosing not to. And
what's ironic is that traditionally, Buganda, we
didn't eat meat in the way that we do now, as much as we did you
know, it was a Sunday...I remember growing up it being a
Sunday affair, you know, once a week, you ate what you...I don't
want to say you ate what you caught but, you know, your
chicken...the chicken was slaughtered there, it wasn't as
mass produced. So it was funny that people made such a big deal
about me being vegetarian.
Every individual belongs to a certain clan or Totem and it's
patriarchal in the sense that you follow the man's line. It's
how the Kingdom, the Bganda kingdom is divided. Folk tales
and traditions around my totem or my clan, which is
grasshoppers. I'm not to eat it, because if I do, then I might
lose my blessings. Or I might get an adverse reaction to
eating grasshoppers, which are a massive delicacy.
Lucy Dearlove: Wow. Okay.
Katasi E. Kironde: In Uganda. And then everyone has...people
have names that are specific. So you've got grasshopper names. My
mum's a monkey. So she's got like, monkey, a monkey name. But
yeah. So when you meet, someone they'll tell you their name. If
they have a name that you sort of know about your brothers
have, you couldn't possibly ever have a relationship with them,
because somewhere down the line, you are related. So it's quite
sophisticated. And also it's said that the King who
introduced them was also trying to preserve the animals because
then you wouldn't consume your animal.
Lucy Dearlove: Right, right.
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: One time I met this wonderful guy.
And his name was Kabango. So I came home and I asked my mother,
asked my aunt. I said, this guy is so lovely. His name is
Kabango. He said, What? I said his name is Kabango. Can I go
out with him? They said, No, you cannot. You are not allowed.
Lucy Dearlove: And they knew straightaway?
Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: Lecker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy
Dearlove. Thanks so much to Katasi E. Kironde and Nakigudde
Elizabeth Kibalama, my guests on this episode.
Katasi's written for outlets like Peckham Peculiar and Black
Ballad. And she was also a co host on the Unsavoury Ethnic
Types podcast, who did a great episode about Ugandan food that
I really recommend listening to, I'll link to in the show notes.
So you can also listen. Katasi also guest curated a recent
issue of Fair Magazine, which is a magazine that focuses each
issue on a particular city, the one Katasi did was all about
Kampala. I just checked, and it's actually currently reduced
on the Fare website, so you can still buy a copy for an even
cheaper price. I'll also link to that in the show notes. I love
this magazine. I learned so much from it, Katasi did an amazing
job. The design of the photography is so beautiful,
highly recommended. Katasi actually sent me a copy of this
when it first came out. And that's what planted the seed for
the idea for this episode. We actually talked a bit more about
the magazine and a couple of specific pieces in it because
there's some really interesting ideas there. And those bits of
the conversation that I had with Katasi are going to be available
on the Patreon bonus episode of the podcast which comes out
monthly on the Patreon page. You can get access to those by
signing up for three pound a month at
patreon.com/leckerpodcast. Other ways you can support Lecker?
Tell your friends, please spread the word...rate and review on
Apple podcasts or Spotify. Buy merch from the Lecker Big Cartel
site, but generally just enjoy and appreciate the podcast and
share it if you have, that means the world to me.
All the music in this episode is by Blue Dot Sessions. And thanks
as always to Ben McDonald, who did a beautiful illustration of
Katasi and her mum for this episode. You can see that on the
Lecker Instagram and Twitter @leckerpodcast. I'll be back in
your podcast feeds next month. Thanks for listening.