SEAI 180 Degrees Season 4 Episode 4

The Educator - Rachel Dempsey

Jim Scheer 00:05

Hi, I'm Jim Scheer, host of 180 Degrees, a podcast brought to you by the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. In this series, I talked to Climate Leaders about how they first connected to the urgent need for climate action. We go back to their roots and talk about their journeys, discover what drives them, and what keeps them motivated. We also explore the essential ingredients required for leadership on climate action here in Ireland, and how we might impact internationally. Nothing short of a societal movement is now needed to ensure a livable planet for our children and future generations. In this episode, I'm joined by singer ethnomusicologist, wellbeing facilitator, forest bathing guide, and Changemaker. Rachel Dempsey, Rachel loves working with people to bring about positive change internally and in the world around us. Rachel grew up in Dublin and lived in several countries before settling in County Wicklow where she loves being surrounded by the forest and the sea. Her passion for change making and activism started in school. And her experience ranges from direct action and protests to working in the community development sector delivering workshops on sustainability to hundreds of leaders around Ireland and internationally. I'm very excited to chat to Rachel today about her vast experience in the climate space, the methods she promotes to deal with climate anxiety, and her outlook to the future. So Rachel Dempsey, thanks for joining us here for this episode of the podcast. Great to have you.

Rachel Dempsey 01:27

Thank you. My pleasure.

Jim Scheer 01:29

We might start for those listeners who haven't heard of you before or come across your work. If you could tell us a bit about yourself and the work that you do.

Rachel Dempsey 01:37

Sure, yeah, so I run Full Circle Change. It's all about how we need inner transformation to bring about positive change in the world. So we focus on connection, resilience, and really thriving people and planet, you know, as a result of interconnection, and building up our wisdom and our resilience. So I run various offerings around those themes. Some of it is nature connection work, so that's forest bathing and singing in the forest. And I also run transformative education, both online and face to face workshops for organisations and individuals. And that would be around just the issues that we're facing at the moment, sustainability, regeneration, all of that stuff.

Jim Scheer 02:29

Amazing. Lots of people listening are gonna want to hear about much of that stuff. So we'll get into it. Maybe we could start a little bit more about you and your journey to get to that point where you're now doing this work.

Rachel Dempsey 02:41

Yeah, it's, I suppose there's a long version on the short version. But in a nutshell, well, I was really lucky, the long version okay, I was really lucky to go to the first ever multi-denominational co-educational school in Ireland. It was called Dalkey School Project and it was the first, it wasn't called Educate Together in those days, but it was a very progressive education. A lot of experimentive work, teachers that had travelled around the world are focused on human rights, anti racism, and all that kind of stuff. So and then my parents were, I suppose, classic to the left wing labour supporters into the likes of Amnesty International. And then in school, I was really lucky, because I went to a normal Catholic Secondary School, which was a bit of a shock. But I, you know, we were lucky that we had some really progressive teachers. So I had a geography teacher who set up a green group. And yeah, I was writing there, we were recycling aluminium cans, and all that kind of stuff. Probably before the mainstream. I mean, this is mid 80s. So, and the other thing that I was exposed to in school was development education. So I was sent off to, you know, workshops in Dublin around development issues. So you know, looking at issues in the global south, and how they're linked to the global north, and the environment was very much part of that. So yeah, that was my early exposure, I suppose.

Jim Scheer 04:14

Was there a moment in that education that that really like stands out to you? Was there a particular "Oh, yeah, that's what I'm into" moment?

Rachel Dempsey 04:21

Yeah. Like, actually, it was a two day workshop that I was sent on with a friend of mine. We were, you know, school kids. I think we're in fourth, fifth year, maybe. But we spent two days like immersing ourselves in I don't know what poverty is and what resources are and inequality, wealth distribution, all those kinds of issues, culture. And I remember sitting on the steps of the building that we were working in, just after the workshop, and there was a tingling all over my body and I was like, That's it. This is what I want to do for the rest of my life. That was the classic moments, yeah.

Jim Scheer 05:00

Yeah, a very visceral moment there. Yeah. And did you do some travelling? And I think I know the answer. But in your you're into singing as well. So could you say a little bit about that and, and how that came in?

Rachel Dempsey 05:11

Sure. So even in primary school, I was into harmony singing, and then in secondary school into choir and all of that. And then through that same two day development education workshop, we were told about a big meeting in Poland, a European youth meeting of the movement called Taizé, which is a Christian movement. And I wasn't brought up Catholic, but I was in there because I knew involved singing. So myself at the same friend where sent off as School reps to this big, huge 80,000 plus people in 1989, in Poland, and we were exposed to big huge sort of football fields where, you know, covered over turned into sort of tents, I suppose they were and people chanting, chanting, chanting repetitively, in harmony. And the two of us were just completely converted. I mean, this is not in the religious sense, but just to the power of chanting and group harmony singing

Jim Scheer 06:07

mWhere did you bring that then? I mean, you've been singing for a long time now.

Rachel Dempsey 06:12

Well, I ended up doing University in the UK. So I was in Liverpool, and the cultural scene there was quite dynamic. And I got into community singing. So I remember these lovely sessions once a week going down and learning songs like civil rights songs, and you know, Sweet Honey in the Rock, that type of musics. Really, again, harmony, and the message is really powerful about social justice and interconnection and that kind of thing. So and then a bit went on to facilitate my own singing workshops based on all of that world music repertoire that it picked up along the way.

Jim Scheer 06:53

Yeah. Wow. And have you managed to bring those two things together? The music and the education piece?

Rachel Dempsey 06:59

Yeah, I started running those harmony singing workshops back 20 years ago. And little by little, I would focus on themes, you know, bringing in themes like, say, songs for the earth, or human rights songs. So yeah, it was definitely bringing together issues through songs because I think that, it's very hard to change hearts and minds, if it's just in a lecture kind of way and it just in a sort of statistics way you can really, so I think the arts and storytelling and those other methodologies are more transformative. So yeah, I would have used music and then went on to study how music can be used for healing and of how other people around the world have done it for millennia.

Jim Scheer 07:46

Oh, wow. Yeah. What to ask about that, for sure. I mean, it sounds like learning and educating is important to you. You've been doing it for the last 20 plus years. And I imagine how you've taught might have evolved over time. Can you say a bit about your approach to education, particularly around environmental issues,

Rachel Dempsey 08:05

The education that I would have really been involved in from day one was development education, and it's education for action. It's not education for regurgitating facts. So you know, as an educator, or an activist or a change maker, I think we always have to be careful that we don't fall into that trap of trying to terrify people into action, because it doesn't really work.

Jim Scheer 08:27

Yeah, I got that. I did one of your courses recently. And I just so enjoyed it, I'd say it was just such a rich experience. And there were so many different techniques to use, there was self reflection, and there was group discussion, and there was think pieces. And it sounds like it's taken a bit of time to sort of develop those and pull them together.

Rachel Dempsey 08:46

Definitely, yeah, one very transformative experience I had in terms of educating, I was working for a community development organisation for a long time. And I came up with the idea of educating around zero waste. I had set up a Facebook page, and it was just a whim, I was just one day, you know, looking for ways of I think I had baby stuff to pass on. And I wasn't sure whether such and such can be recycled about so just set up this Facebook page, and within about six months of 1000s of people on it. And I really took off and I learned so much from the other people on the group and got really into the idea of using zero waste as a sort of lens to learn more about the world. So I set up this thing was a one day than a two day than a four day training, and was really popular and I went all over the country running these workshops. You know, I had my agenda and everything, but actually what happened was, I would go in and I would start chatting to people well you know, are you worried about the environment and how do you feel and people were opening up about their sheer terror and yeah, there was a real need for a space where the emotions could come in in a much more like explicit way. So I suppose through, through what I have read and who I've been influenced by, and my own experience, I've kind of blended a few different approaches with the education from development education to work that reconnects to the holistic body based energy work, as well

Jim Scheer 10:18

Lots of people trying to solve this big crisis, you know, this climate and biodiversity crisis and work out how we can come together on it. And, you know, we're not winning yet. And so when you talk about these novel approaches, or you know, they're called novel approaches, but they're probably essential approaches, you've done a lot of looking at the origins of the climate crisis too, and we spoke about that on the course. And can you describe what you see when you look back at the history of human evolution and how we got ourselves into this?

Rachel Dempsey 10:48

Yeah, so one pivotal moment for me in my education, which kind of informs the way I see those issues is, when I was a first year in college, and it was 1992, in Liverpool, and I was studying Latin American Studies. And we started off by learning about the conquest. Interestingly, we start off learning about Latin America through the lens of the European arrival to Latin America. But I suppose I was reading a lot about the the destruction and the genocide, the slavery, all of that, and Liverpool happened to be one of the key cities that was involved in the transportation of slaves, I had a huge big epiphany around colonialization. And I suppose a lot of people would have come to that through the history of Ireland, but that had never resonated with me, or taken hold of my imagination as much as the Latin American story did. So I, I saw the way the Europeans arrived in the continents that we now know, as the Americas. And basically, taken as much as they could. And then some people talk about, actually, the worst of the damage started in the 1950s, with the new world order, after the Second World War. So this idea of free trade, and basically making it as easy as possible to exploit the land and the natural resources for profit, extraction and all of that stuff. Yeah. And I suppose the population has started increasing rapidly down as well. So it's kind of a conflicts of issues.

Jim Scheer 12:30

Yeah. And there's something in the language I just want to pick up on there. Because, you know, I'd be used to talking about and would have been taught from that, you know, this is when America was discovered, and then those kinds of things and, and obviously, it's not. So language is obviously super important and crucial about how we talk about these things, and, and changing some of those old conversations. Yeah, and updating them.

Rachel Dempsey 12:51

Absolutely. Yeah. And even now, you do hear us, I was listening to an interview recently on the radio, it was to do development. And just, for example, the expression labour migrated from the UK to Ireland. Now, people migrated. But, you know, from a commercial point of view, people become labour. So it's that commodification, really, of pretty much everything.

Jim Scheer 13:15

Yeah, yeah, these are people we are talking about. Yeah. And then those indigenous cultures that perhaps hadn't gone for that way of being or living, and then had that system imposed on them, I suppose what's becoming clear is that quite often, well, that their example or their their way of being and living was much more closely knitted to being in harmony with their surroundings. And so there's a lot of wisdom locked up there. I know, You've done a lot of thinking about that. What do you think we can learn and bring and get back to, to help us here on our mission?

Rachel Dempsey 13:47

I think a lot of it stems from the idea of relationship. So there's various aspects of indigenous cultures that although they're very varied, because we're talking about people from all over the world, and they recognize things like relationship is really important. So we're in relationship with nature, we're in relationship with the food that nature provides, we don't take more than we need, because we respect the need for nature to reproduce itself. And also relationship with one another, and relationship with community. So reciprocity is another one. So I give to you, you give to me, and then that's, you know, not in a I rub your back, and you'll rub mine but sacred reciprocity where I give because it's giving us the ultimate expression of humanity of and actually giving is such a gift to oneself, and I think we tend to focus more on the receiving, but gift giving can be such a pleasure, but I think what gets in the way in our culture is the idea of scarcity. And scarcity is also because we have a very competitive culture. So if you're not powerful and if you don't grab what you can, then you might miss out. So, yeah, I think a lot of the kind of coming back to the current crisis, a lot of sectors are really worried like the farming sector is worried the energy sector is worried car manufacturers are worried. You know, individuals are worried, why? Because they feel that their interests are being negated or denied or threatened. But actually, back to the indigenous culture. Your welfare is my welfare. So everyone looks after everyone else. That's what they aspire to. And that's what their rituals and their teachings constantly reiterate.

Jim Scheer 15:36

And is there something about what we value in that and coming from from values that come up in other conversations is really where if we get down to the core of being a human and what we value as humans and we live from there, it sounds more like that kind of model you're talking about and the capitalist, consumerist society.

Rachel Dempsey 15:55

Yeah. Yeah, I think we do really need to look at those values, you know, and that's basically what our economy is built on the idea that we are that all people act according to their own sort of self interest, most of the time. So I do think that yeah, the idea of having sustainability sort of lobbed on top of all of that, it's, it's, that's for me, the reason why we haven't achieved sustainability, we haven't reduced carbon emissions over the last 30 years of really trying, is because we haven't looked any deeper than replacing one object for another, you know, keep cups or, you know, one form of energy. I mean, I'm not saying that renewable energy isn't vastly superior to fossil fuel energy, but we have to look at why we need so much energy, why we need so much stuff, you know, what is that emptiness underneath that?

Jim Scheer 16:47

Okay. Yeah, so what, what, what needs is that meeting that maybe, somehow, not our core needs, maybe or

Rachel Dempsey 16:54

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jim Scheer 16:56

Could we go back to the indigenous cultures? Just for a minute? And did you have a couple of examples you can give us that illustrate ways of being that more connected to the natural world?

Rachel Dempsey 17:06

Yeah, I was actually thinking recently, I spent a little bit of time just a few weeks up in Northern, Northeastern Australia, with the Yolngu people. So I was really blessed to end up going up there, spent a few weeks doing singing workshops with the young kids. And one of the things that happened there, I one of the elders of the community died. So I went to this amazing Aboriginal funeral. Amazing for me, that is, as you know, an outsider to witness that. And I remember a young girl come up to me, and she goes, Do you have any family here yet? And I'm like, What do you mean? Do you mean the guys I'm staying with? And she said no, an indigenous, you can't be in this, you can't be here without being officially recognized and given the relationship to us. So she goes, I'm, you're now my yappa. That man, sister, and it was so sweet. And so we forged this relationship. And then eventually, she told me that my clan or that my category, or whatever, it was the crayfish. So basically, everyone is related to their kin, their kin are animals and plants from the region. So I was given, I was no one until I had human relationships. This, my sister was there, she became my sister, and then I became related to the crayfish. So that was just a really tangible experience of actually, this is so important to people that they can't really get their heads around to having a stranger in their midst until family and they have a kinship with nature.

Jim Scheer 18:42

What did that what did that do for you like to? That doesn't happen? Yeah. You know, and, you know, on an everyday basis, not a common thing to occur? How did that change your experience of being there?

Rachel Dempsey 18:55

Yeah, I felt like, I suppose, when you go into these communities as the typical white, you know, outsider, I felt a little bit by being accepted. I just was able to relax into it, then, you know, it was just beautiful feeling of people in their way saying, Okay, you're welcome here. You're part of our experience, and, and then just that connection with nature. That was a gorgeous thing.

Jim Scheer 19:25

One thing I wanted to ask about specifically was the seven generations principle. I just found that one fascinating, could you describe that for us?

Rachel Dempsey 19:33

Yeah. So basically, this is a Native American. So North American concept which is held among various of the nations, Lakota and a few others. And their actions have to be informed by the well being of seven generations ahead, but also connected to seven generations behind them as well. So you know, one of their obligations or responsibilities which is one of the other key indicators of indigeneity is a sense of responsibility. Like, we tend to talk about rights, they tend to talk about responsibilities, when responsibilities to reproduce the culture. So if you have, if your actions are reproducing the culture and passing on the messages and passing on the love and the learning and the guidance, from one generation to the next, then you're connected to your ancestors, seven generations behind, and then your actions. So looking again, at that sacred reciprocity, and the harvesting only what you need, and all of that, that ensures that seven generations ahead, will be able to live and survive and thrive the same way as you have.

Jim Scheer 20:45

It's just beautiful. And it has a real strong link to the way the climate crisis is going to impact future generations. Yeah. Do you think a model like that could work here? If we started a conversation about it? I mean

Rachel Dempsey 20:58

Yeah, I think, I think you've hit the nail on the head with the word conversation, because everyone is facing this crisis, a lot of us have worries and fears and anxieties. And we do need to open up space. So we can converse in a not in a Twitter-y, we can have let's we'll have a fight online about it, but sit down and have the chats and so we'll listen, you know, what if we, we learned from these guys, not, and you're not saying that you're going to throw out modernity; Because I think people have this knee jerk reaction that what you want me to be a hunter gatherer? No, but let's have a look at how we can weave in some of this, these perspectives into our modern lives.

Jim Scheer 21:38

And I can I feel myself listening to your talk here. I'm sorry, what? What can I do? How can I get reconnected? Do you have some ideas and some thoughts?

Rachel Dempsey 21:47

I think, you know, just keep it really simple. I think even a potted plant in the house is a start. And the not just it's sitting there, but noticing it because I have always had lots of plants around the place for to actually you when you kind of reconfigure the relationship to a sort of a give and take a sort of more nurturing one that has. It's a simple thing. But it's just a shift in perspective that can make you feel like you're relating to the plant. I mean, some people go as far as singing to their plants and all of that, which is fine, and even to chatting. Yeah, exactly. I think that's a beautiful thing. Like I talk to the trees, when I'm in the forest, I ask them questions. And sometimes the answers are, you're like, how did that tree know that? You know, it's can be really, it doesn't really matter whether it comes from nature or your own imagination. But it's an amazing way just to sort of surrender to nature and just see what it has to offer you. But yeah, just going out into into your garden and sitting for a few minutes. Yeah, there's another way.

Jim Scheer 22:47

And it seems to me like the science is catching up to things like forest bathing. And I know you run sessions. And there's something about the experiential level, which means you can pretty much have what you have in yourself when you're out there.

Rachel Dempsey 23:00

Exactly.

Jim Scheer 23:00

It's pretty free.

Rachel Dempsey 23:01

That's it, you know, you don't really need to know people innately know that there's a benefit to nature, don't they, you know, when you're when you're in there, you feel better. And then you can take it a step further with the likes of forest bathing, because you immerse your senses that bit more so like you experience smell or touch. So when you're going on your average walk, you might not take the time to really touch the barks or lift up the rotting leaves and smell it. So you just, forest bathing allows you to get a bit deeper with it.

Jim Scheer 23:35

Let's talk again about the intergenerational side of things. And we've seen a massive Youth Movement globally. And here in Ireland, and young people are really crying out more and more, you know, for, for change and for action. I was reading some research that was done last year. And it said that 75% of young people surveyed said they think the future is frightening. 56% of them think that humanity is doomed. And 83% said that they think people have failed to take care of the planet. How do you feel when you hear the calls made by younger generations?

Rachel Dempsey 24:10

Yeah, I mean, I just have complete empathy for young people and the way they are experiencing life on Earth at the moment. It's tragic. I mean, it's heartbreaking to imagine being in your teens or your 20s and looking forward to the complete unknown. Because really deep down, you know, your age is important at the moment because we just don't know what's ahead of us. But I think that I think a lot of the older generation have just said, oh, you know, we have to, it's didn't we're doomed, but as in our attitudes are too entrenched, but the young people are aware of that. But actually young people have less of a voice, you know, they have much more pressure on them in terms of, you know, the Leaving Cert and getting into college. They have less consumer power they have, they don't have the vote till they're 18. So why should it be on their shoulders? You know, when we've

Jim Scheer 25:07

It's such a deferral of responsibility? Like, it's sorta like we can't do this. Yeah. But you guys are so much more switched on. Yeah, that is just so not what he's called for. Right? Yeah.

Rachel Dempsey 25:16

And I think the interesting piece of that one of the interesting pieces about that piece of research, if it's the same one, is how, how devastating it is for young people to know that the older generations knew this was coming down the line and failed to do what was required. It's not just that the world is being destroyed, it's because sometimes people frame it as Oh, you know, it's such a shame that fossil fuels turned out to be so damaging. But that's not we knew, we knew. And not only that, but we knew how polluting everything else was. So it's not just about carbon being released. So I think it's damaging that it's happening, but it's also damaging that they weren't looked after.

Jim Scheer 25:57

Yeah. And so it's such an important conversation to be having with young people. Yeah. And you gave us a lot of good tips actually, on the course about how to have conversations with young people. Could you share a little bit about that, and what's important in those conversations,

Rachel Dempsey 26:10

I think deep listening, you know, I think and really hear, you know, empathise with, with young people about what's happening and solidarity. You know, a lot of the young people have the passion and the energy that I know of, in myself, I had it more in my 20s. And I do have a now with responsibility of kids, but we can be in solidarity, and we can help empower and look after those young people. I'm amazed by their wisdom, sometimes, their ability to see through, you know, what we put up with and what we've inherited.

Jim Scheer 26:42

I think we can listen better. I wonder if as adults, we've become kind of reasonable. Like, and the reasons I'm talking about, like, we can't do that, because we have to prop up the economy. Yeah, can't do that. Because these jobs here are important. We can't do that because of XY and Z. But none of those things matter in a in a climate constrained world. And the black and whiteness of which kids talk about that really, is something I think we can learn from in the other direction and take take on

Rachel Dempsey 27:08

Absolutely, that's it because my son now goes to a school, a democratic school, where I suppose the crux of the model is that you need to know yourself, before choosing a career, you know, there's no classes, no teachers. So the I think that, that that kind of thing would really, really helps transform society so that we don't have all these young people turning around and saying, you know, you built a system that's, that's, I don't fit into that there is no future with, like, why go to school, when we have no future? So if we can remodel education, so that it actually focuses on that lived experience of being in the world and depart from there, you know,

Jim Scheer 27:50

yeah, it's, like, even you talk about the democratic school, and I've kids myself, and it sounds risky, or something. Yeah. sending your kids to something that's outside of the standard education system. Yeah, it feels like you're going outside of the pack. And how did you make that decision? You know, and what gave you the confidence to make it?

Rachel Dempsey 28:14

It is it's, I think, with every time we take a step out of the norm, it's absolutely terrifying. Like, I go in there, sometimes he's only in there a few weeks. It was partly a push pull factor, like, intellectually. When I first came across the model, I thought, Oh, my God, that's fantastic. But I didn't initially go, Yeah, I'm signing my kids off. Because of that same thing you're talking about. It's like, Oh, my God, you know, will they get a place in college? And what will become of them? And will they be laying about doing nothing under screens for six years? And I still have that every single day. Every day. I'm like, holy moly, like, Will I you know, is this a good decision? But I think what was the key to change for me, and this is from looking at that experience, is the fact that his dad was really on board. So we have that solidarity. Anyone who's trying to live more sustainably I don't know give up meat. Or you know, refuse to travel, not have kids. Any decision that you make, it's that much harder when you don't have people around you trying to make the same decision. So I think that's why my philosophy is when you're looking at sustainability, you have to look at it as a community rather than as an individual with this new school model. It's changing my parenting because now I have the support of the school model to make the changes in my parenting that I want to, so I think it's it's again, it's like this web of meaning web of of life web of connections that once you make a few strands linked together, then it has a multiplier effect. Once you make that decision, and make that change, then you find the like minded people are there and you can rely on one another and build on what you have then

Jim Scheer 29:56

Beautiful, and it's probably that that separation combined with the stark scientific reality of what's happening that's causing a lot of people climate anxiety or you refer to it as eco anxiety? How do you understand eco anxiety? As you call it. And how do you see it's affecting people today?

Rachel Dempsey 30:14

I think it's it's a spectrum as you say, you know, eco anxiety or eco concern is, in moderation, it's the healthiest thing you could possibly the healthiest way you could possibly react to the state of the planet, like if anything, not having any concern or worries about the way the planet is, is less well adapted. It's actually a symptom of denial, or maybe just there's myriad ways, or reasons why people would turn away and it's not a matter of blaming anyone for turning away, but it is. It's a healthy reaction. I mean, why wouldn't you be worried? So I do think that eco anxiety should be almost normalised, unfortunately. But I think it's when those emotions of fear, terror, grief, loss, we can't sustain our normal lives and have those incredibly heavy emotions all the time. So it's, it's about navigating it, I think it's about it's not about saying, I want to get rid of my eco, or climate anxiety, it's about how can I manage and balance my life. You know, with that there, you know, and give it its space, but not let it take over.

Jim Scheer 31:26

Yeah, what have you found that works?

Rachel Dempsey 31:29

I go back to nature, I do find that just because nature isn't just about oh, the nice smells and the lovely trees, it's actually, for me, looking at the world and how beautiful it is, and how the fractal patterns, you know, these ever reproducing patterns, it kind of makes me feel like there's a there's an intelligence of wonder, it brings you away from your daily concerns, even though some of those concerns are big picture concerns. And it just, it feeds you it feeds your soul.

Jim Scheer 31:59

Rachel. So I've heard you talking before about transforming that eco anxiety to eco resilience. It's come up in other conversations, this term resilience as well. Can you just say briefly, what that is?

Rachel Dempsey 32:11

So I think when you admit or recognize to yourself that you're experiencing eco anxiety, or climate anxiety, you can ignore it, or you can manage it. But you can also work with it. And you can, you can actually use it as a gateway into thinking about I suppose those bigger picture questions, meaning, you know, why are we here, all of that stuff. But when you look at the right action, you know, what action is the action that you want to take? And I think that does have to come from quite deep inquiry as to who are you like, what feeds you? What drives you? What, what is your passion? Because with eco anxiety, if you're being propelled into sort of, I don't know, campaigning or protesting, because of this massive fear for what's going to happen in the future, you will burn out pretty quickly. And you can choose action, which feels like you're contributing in the here and now. Because if we choose actions that have meaning for us in the here, and now we're more likely to not burn out. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It just makes sense for us as individuals, to really, yeah, to fuel ourselves to do stuff we love, and that has meaning and changing the world as well.

Jim Scheer 33:34

Yeah, I feel drawn to it, as you're talking about it is, you know, so finally, let's, let's look to the future, briefly. And really, I'm interested to know, when you imagine the future, when you think out to say 2050, 30 years time, not quite now, what do you see?

Rachel Dempsey 33:50

It's hard to say that the future, it's impossible to say that it's all going to be fine, because it's not, you know, there's we've already built in so much disastrous consequences, because of our, our actions. So I think that when I look forward, I do think there will be more suffering on a bigger scale. But I think that that suffering can be approached in a way that, that we have some agency. When I look at the future suffering, I think, yeah, it'll be there. But it could be there a lot less if we actually try adapting now. And when I mean, adapting, I do mean, you know, looking after nature, so that nature will mitigate against some of those disasters. But and also, I mean, our food system, we could easily adapt so that it becomes more robust, so that becomes more by original and local, so that we have more resilience to those shocks. So think the work we do now in terms of community development, you know, how we how we enable people to have constructive conversations, how we bring people closer to one another that will determine the extent of the suffering, and then I think there's every possibility that with the collapse of this model that we live with at the moment, it will be very painful. But ultimately, I don't see the value in perpetuating it. You know, it's ugly in many ways. So out of the ashes of that could come something much more beautiful. But yeah, I don't, I haven't lost hope that it's something better will emerge afterwards.

Jim Scheer 35:27

And togetherness seems to be at the core of getting through it. Yeah. Yeah. Rachel Dempsey, it's been absolutely fascinating. Thanks for sharing your stories and your work. And really appreciate your time.

Rachel Dempsey 35:42

Thank you, Jim. Loved chatting to you.

Jim Scheer 35:46

Thank you for listening to today's podcast. We hope you enjoyed our conversation, and it's left you in action and hopeful for our future. Please visit seai.ie/podcast for information on each of our guests this season and links to further relevant material to support you around your own climate actions, or resources if you're suffering from any climate anxiety. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to 180 Degrees and rate the podcast to help us spread the word