1 00:00:01,260 --> 00:00:05,880 Eveline Oehrlich: Hello, welcome. This is my first humans 2 00:00:05,910 --> 00:00:09,660 of DevOps podcast and I am excited to have the boss lady 3 00:00:09,660 --> 00:00:12,930 with me today, Jane Groll. Hello, Jane, how are you? 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,350 Jayne Groll: Hello, Evelyn, how are you? And thank you so much 5 00:00:16,350 --> 00:00:21,120 for taking on this new role as host and facilitator for the 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,450 humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm really excited to be here with 7 00:00:24,450 --> 00:00:25,170 you today. 8 00:00:25,650 --> 00:00:27,750 Eveline Oehrlich: And I'm excited to take it on because I, 9 00:00:27,810 --> 00:00:30,960 as I already shared with you, there's tons of things we can 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,290 talk about. But today, we're actually here to talk about a 11 00:00:34,290 --> 00:00:38,610 most exciting topic, which is Site Reliability Engineering. We 12 00:00:38,610 --> 00:00:42,660 did a recent report where, you know, we had a tons of 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:47,700 responses. So first question Site Reliability, why is that 14 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:49,590 such a big topic today? 15 00:00:50,370 --> 00:00:53,460 Jayne Groll: So, you know, you and I both come from IT ops. And 16 00:00:53,460 --> 00:00:57,660 so I think, and, of course, share your your perspective on 17 00:00:57,660 --> 00:01:01,410 that. But it's very gratifying to see Site Reliability 18 00:01:01,410 --> 00:01:06,210 Engineering, really giving it ops, kind of a new lens, or a 19 00:01:06,210 --> 00:01:10,470 new perspective, or even a new role, right, an official role 20 00:01:10,470 --> 00:01:14,070 that organizations are hiring and a set of practices that 21 00:01:14,070 --> 00:01:18,360 organizations can embrace. I think it puts it ops look a lot 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:24,690 about shift left in DevOps, it really shifts IT ops. So far 23 00:01:24,690 --> 00:01:28,320 left, that, you know, according to Google's definition, SRE is 24 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:32,070 what happens when you take a software engineer to help design 25 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:36,990 and and, you know, be part of it operations. Right. So it's a 26 00:01:36,990 --> 00:01:40,530 really exciting set of practices. Is there a lot of new 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,730 in SRE? Maybe, maybe not. I mean, I always think of it is, 28 00:01:44,730 --> 00:01:48,240 you know, kind of a new, modern approach to it, service 29 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,260 management. But I think there's just an underlying human 30 00:01:52,260 --> 00:01:55,440 excitement. And I said, you and I've been watching it, you know, 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,010 trending for a while with the upskilling report. And I think 32 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:04,140 it's extra exciting today, that SRE has crossed the chasm, 33 00:02:04,170 --> 00:02:06,570 right? I mean, we saw that in the report that it cross the 34 00:02:06,570 --> 00:02:10,980 chasm. And now enterprises are starting to embrace it. What 35 00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:13,500 about your excitement? I said, we both you know, we've we've 36 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:15,900 known each other a long time, we've kind of watched this rise 37 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:16,560 together. 38 00:02:16,950 --> 00:02:19,350 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah. So as you said, I've been in IT ops 39 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:24,150 also started out my career there in 94. And my first day on the 40 00:02:24,150 --> 00:02:27,600 job was called a programmer by somebody in the business line. 41 00:02:27,930 --> 00:02:30,900 Of course, I thought I was at that time programmer wasn't a 42 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:35,850 great at that time, it was not a great term. But I have to say it 43 00:02:35,850 --> 00:02:39,660 was, at that time already a fun job I had to do and could do a 44 00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:43,560 lot of things. So maybe both of us already were SOEs, without 45 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,120 even knowing it, then. But again, exciting for what reasons 46 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,210 what, what are some of the things we found, if you want to 47 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,380 go dive into why is it exciting? What's changing? Why is 48 00:02:55,380 --> 00:02:58,710 everybody talking about it? And why did we do the research? 49 00:02:59,530 --> 00:03:03,100 Jayne Groll: Well, I think the big change is looking at 50 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:07,570 operations as an engineering discipline. And so when we look 51 00:03:07,570 --> 00:03:10,990 at software engineering, we look at DevOps engineering, right, we 52 00:03:10,990 --> 00:03:14,650 look at a lot of the things that that kind of have this 53 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,750 engineering mentality, IT operations was always on the 54 00:03:19,750 --> 00:03:23,320 sidelines, right? You know, you and I stood with the help desk 55 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,530 and everyone else, you know, with our hands up against the 56 00:03:26,530 --> 00:03:29,860 fence waiting for something to be thrown over. But we really 57 00:03:29,860 --> 00:03:34,810 weren't part of the solution. We were there to fix the problems. 58 00:03:34,990 --> 00:03:39,790 And so I think that SRE kind of respond that right, respond that 59 00:03:39,820 --> 00:03:43,810 in a way, starting with Google, but then new practices grafting 60 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:49,120 on top of it. So that led us to think about this report. Because 61 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,790 you know, you know, you and I have been doing as part of 62 00:03:51,790 --> 00:03:55,690 DevOps Institute's upskilling report for years. And one of the 63 00:03:55,690 --> 00:04:00,430 things we've seen is this, you know, this trend with SRE, and 64 00:04:00,430 --> 00:04:04,780 then given our experience with IT operations, and then you 65 00:04:04,780 --> 00:04:08,080 know, kind of this new excitement about this role of 66 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,320 site reliability engineer, it made sense for you and I to say, 67 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,830 Okay, let's take an agnostic approach. And let's go back to 68 00:04:14,830 --> 00:04:17,740 the community, like we do with the upscaling report and say, 69 00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:22,270 Tell us what's happening in the real world with this set of 70 00:04:22,270 --> 00:04:25,780 practices? Is it the same? Is it you know, the same as other 71 00:04:25,780 --> 00:04:28,870 frameworks? What are organizations doing? How do you 72 00:04:28,870 --> 00:04:33,100 feel about about the role and what kind of benefits or 73 00:04:33,100 --> 00:04:36,610 activities are you executing? And so I was excited because I 74 00:04:36,610 --> 00:04:39,490 came to you and said, Hey, can we do this? And you went, sure. 75 00:04:39,820 --> 00:04:43,870 And then we were even fortunate to get, you know, Sumo Logic and 76 00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:49,720 StackState and Sedai to help underwrite it. So, yes, it's a 77 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,560 passion project, for sure. I think for you and for I, right. 78 00:04:53,890 --> 00:04:57,010 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah. So at first, you know, I thought going 79 00:04:57,010 --> 00:05:00,340 down into the research and crafting the survey questions, I 80 00:05:00,340 --> 00:05:06,310 was really focusing more on the practices and the automation and 81 00:05:06,310 --> 00:05:10,690 of course, the adoption and the different team topologies. And 82 00:05:10,690 --> 00:05:13,900 then when we talked it over with the sponsors, we realized there 83 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:22,270 was also a change in behavior. And we wanted to tickle out that 84 00:05:22,390 --> 00:05:26,230 potential opportunity for people to get excited about something 85 00:05:26,230 --> 00:05:29,170 different. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that from a 86 00:05:29,170 --> 00:05:31,960 career perspective, because both of us have been, you know, 87 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,290 coaches, we've been leaders, we've been in IT ops, you've 88 00:05:35,290 --> 00:05:38,980 done ITSM. I've been an analyst. I've had lots of conversations 89 00:05:38,980 --> 00:05:41,860 with people who are just kind of like, okay, yeah, this is my 90 00:05:41,860 --> 00:05:44,500 job. I go in in the morning and then come home in the evening. 91 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,520 But it's it felt to me that there was something more tell us 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,240 a little bit I know you use you see it in the research, and I 93 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,780 know you like that tickle as well. What did you what? What's 94 00:05:55,780 --> 00:05:57,250 your thought around that? 95 00:05:57,420 --> 00:06:00,840 Jayne Groll: So the first thing that struck me about SRE and I 96 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:04,320 had the opportunity to go to a very early ESRI con, right, 97 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,530 where there was still discussion, and it was still 98 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:12,360 very much something that was very Google specific. So 99 00:06:12,570 --> 00:06:15,060 technology companies were looking at, you know, how do we 100 00:06:15,060 --> 00:06:18,750 replicate what was in the books, but there's an underlying 101 00:06:18,810 --> 00:06:23,610 excitement or a dynamic that that is baked into SRA, because 102 00:06:23,610 --> 00:06:27,180 it looks at some things that maybe in the past have been a 103 00:06:27,180 --> 00:06:30,630 little bit heavier or more disconnected, like, change 104 00:06:30,630 --> 00:06:33,330 management is a great example of that, you know, for years and 105 00:06:33,330 --> 00:06:36,150 years and years, organizations have struggled with how do we 106 00:06:36,150 --> 00:06:39,030 manage changes? How do we control changes? Same thing with 107 00:06:39,030 --> 00:06:42,030 service level objectives, right? What is the service level? Is it 108 00:06:42,180 --> 00:06:45,420 how we, you know, fix something when it's broken? Or is it 109 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:49,140 actually maintaining a level of reliability. And then you add on 110 00:06:49,140 --> 00:06:52,140 top of that, the fact that in the early days of DevOps, there 111 00:06:52,140 --> 00:06:56,040 was a lot of talk about no ops. Now, the intent of no ops was 112 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,510 more automation, which is also baked into sre. But you know, as 113 00:07:00,510 --> 00:07:05,160 an IT ops person as assistance administrator, as perhaps a role 114 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,450 that wasn't considered part of the cool kids club. Right? No 115 00:07:09,450 --> 00:07:14,640 ops kind of spoke to no job, no respect. And now you spin 116 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,500 around, and now you've got SRE, which is, is very much a cool 117 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:22,680 job. But but also, there's a very human element that's baked 118 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,880 into SRE as well, it is IT Service Management. You know, I 119 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,490 talked about this all the time, it is about Incident Management, 120 00:07:29,490 --> 00:07:32,250 change management, Service Level Management, you know, 121 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:36,780 observability event management. And so it is a kind of a cool 122 00:07:36,780 --> 00:07:41,040 version of ITSM, more lightweight than perhaps some of 123 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,610 the other practices. But some of the core principles that were 124 00:07:44,610 --> 00:07:49,770 brought forth in essary are time to make tomorrow better than 125 00:07:49,770 --> 00:07:54,180 today. So in a pure world, and SRE is supposed to spend about 126 00:07:54,210 --> 00:07:58,950 50% of their time, you know, reacting to, you know, 127 00:07:58,950 --> 00:08:03,060 whatever's happening, and 50% of their time reducing toil, right, 128 00:08:03,060 --> 00:08:07,470 so looking at technical debt, looking at automation, looking 129 00:08:07,470 --> 00:08:11,130 at some of the things that have just been dragging it for a 130 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:16,020 very, very long time. SRE says, Hey, take some time, learn, 131 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:21,840 right shadow share. And let's look at ways to reduce that 132 00:08:21,870 --> 00:08:26,820 manual redundant work that nobody likes to do. Right. But 133 00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:29,700 there's automation that will do it for you. Right, but you've 134 00:08:29,700 --> 00:08:32,850 got to be able to have that kind of innovation and the 135 00:08:32,850 --> 00:08:36,660 proactiveness. So there's a lot of principles that are baked 136 00:08:36,660 --> 00:08:39,630 into SRE that are outside just how do we manage your 137 00:08:39,630 --> 00:08:42,570 infrastructure? How do you handle level two that are very 138 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:46,410 human. And I think that may be something that's contributing. 139 00:08:46,410 --> 00:08:49,830 And we saw in the report that people said they were more 140 00:08:49,830 --> 00:08:52,800 excited about their roles that they were being paid better that 141 00:08:52,950 --> 00:08:56,310 they were more engaged in, in you know, the practices? I mean, 142 00:08:56,310 --> 00:08:59,340 you're more familiar with, with the responses than I am? What 143 00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:02,580 did you see in terms of like, did you feel an excitement in 144 00:09:02,580 --> 00:09:03,270 the data? 145 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:07,890 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, a couple of things, which, when you were 146 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:11,010 talking about service management, and the excitement, 147 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:16,920 one is the topic of collaboration, always seem to 148 00:09:16,980 --> 00:09:19,470 everybody always talks about, you know, DevOps, we need to be 149 00:09:19,470 --> 00:09:22,140 better collaborators and collaboration and knowledge 150 00:09:22,140 --> 00:09:26,580 management. But what we found in the report is first, knowledge 151 00:09:26,580 --> 00:09:29,670 management was one of those things where SRE is actually 152 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:34,470 paid to capture their knowledge and shifted left so that others 153 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:38,100 upstream or even right downstream can actually leverage 154 00:09:38,130 --> 00:09:42,900 to improve. So your job is becoming somebody who on a 155 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:47,490 proactive and while you're reacting at a proactive level, 156 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:51,420 insert your knowledge. So the next time somebody knows a 157 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:55,410 better way of doing things while you actually do that, that is 158 00:09:55,410 --> 00:09:59,040 fantastic. So while we're still reacting to some things, because 159 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,240 we can't fix it all Oh, we can be proactive. I think that was 160 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:07,470 that was most important to me being that collaborator. And if 161 00:10:07,470 --> 00:10:13,080 somebody asks me, What makes how, what should I be what my 162 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,670 skills need to be to be in an SRE? Well, you have to be, like 163 00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:21,570 you said, an engineer, you have to know data modeling, process 164 00:10:21,570 --> 00:10:23,970 modeling, you need to be in analytics, you need to know 165 00:10:23,970 --> 00:10:26,550 software development lifecycle, you have to have some knowledge 166 00:10:26,550 --> 00:10:30,870 about all this tech things. But you also need to be able to 167 00:10:31,020 --> 00:10:36,390 understand where you can actually allow the toil to be 168 00:10:36,390 --> 00:10:39,630 reduced. Where can you actually help to make the biggest 169 00:10:39,630 --> 00:10:43,530 difference to developers, to testers, to customers, to 170 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:48,420 product line owners to all these internal and external customers. 171 00:10:48,690 --> 00:10:52,650 And to me as an extrovert I am unfortunately, some people think 172 00:10:52,650 --> 00:10:57,270 I may be too extrovert. That is, that's the beauty of this job, 173 00:10:57,270 --> 00:10:59,700 you get to talk to people, you get to collaborate, you get to 174 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:04,020 work on multiple projects, while you actually fix things, and you 175 00:11:04,020 --> 00:11:08,340 actually can see an outcome. And that was reflected in being 176 00:11:08,430 --> 00:11:12,570 valued as a team member. Because as I remember, back in my time, 177 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,230 IT operations, the only time I think I was really valued was 178 00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:22,980 when I carried the pager. The factory and I could actually 179 00:11:22,980 --> 00:11:27,330 drive in, in, you know, whatever, 10 minutes I was, was 180 00:11:27,330 --> 00:11:31,350 at the data center. So that excitement, I think is that 181 00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:35,340 collaboration gives excitement, and allows you to become much 182 00:11:35,340 --> 00:11:39,240 more of a valuable member than then you were maybe in the past 183 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:40,320 and an IT ops job. 184 00:11:40,930 --> 00:11:42,910 Jayne Groll: You know, and it's funny you say that, because I 185 00:11:42,910 --> 00:11:46,840 think one of the areas of essary, there really shows how 186 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,560 important collaboration is incident management. So in your 187 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:53,200 experience, in my experience, right, an incident occurs, 188 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,530 everybody goes not my fault, not my fault, right? You spend half 189 00:11:56,530 --> 00:11:58,960 your time trying to figure out what change because it hasn't 190 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,010 been captured, or documented anywhere. And it becomes this 191 00:12:03,070 --> 00:12:06,820 like hot potato of a ticket in an ITSM system being passed 192 00:12:06,820 --> 00:12:10,390 around according to some escalation path, and you have 15 193 00:12:10,390 --> 00:12:14,590 minutes to get it and two hours to fix it or whatever. And it 194 00:12:14,590 --> 00:12:17,710 becomes a follow the pointing finger. Right. So like, you 195 00:12:17,710 --> 00:12:21,250 know, it's very non collaborative. In SRE, there's a 196 00:12:21,250 --> 00:12:23,350 couple of things, I think that really showcase that 197 00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:25,660 collaboration. First of all, there's an incident command 198 00:12:25,660 --> 00:12:29,560 system, right? Where it isn't just pass around a ticket, but 199 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:33,370 there's a collaborative opportunity to figure out what 200 00:12:33,370 --> 00:12:36,670 change because that's usually the root cause of an incident, 201 00:12:36,850 --> 00:12:41,170 what change, how do we fix it? Who can we get involved and, and 202 00:12:41,170 --> 00:12:44,200 instead of playing, you know, pass the ticket around, it 203 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,110 becomes a collaborative event. The other side of it, I thought 204 00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:49,990 was really interesting is, if there's a breach if the service 205 00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:53,860 level objectives are breached, because of an incident, all 206 00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:57,580 innovative work stops, right, all new work stops until they 207 00:12:57,580 --> 00:13:00,550 figure out what caused the breach. Now, for a business that 208 00:13:00,550 --> 00:13:04,540 can be very disruptive. So who wants to breach? Nobody? Right? 209 00:13:04,630 --> 00:13:08,380 One of the disappointing parts, I think that we found in the 210 00:13:08,410 --> 00:13:12,400 survey was that service level objectives were not necessarily 211 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,060 the first thing that organizations did, we saw that 212 00:13:16,060 --> 00:13:19,660 in ITIL, as well, we're Service Level Management was was later 213 00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:23,260 hopefully, we can flip the model on that. But it shows a 214 00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:27,580 collaborative spirit, that instead of just pointing out it 215 00:13:27,580 --> 00:13:31,210 wasn't me, or it was you and we follow that pointing finger, 216 00:13:31,390 --> 00:13:36,430 that there isn't ever to work together, and to solve problems 217 00:13:36,430 --> 00:13:39,190 together. And hopefully, that, first of all transfers 218 00:13:39,190 --> 00:13:42,490 knowledge, but also helps to reduce toil, because in order to 219 00:13:42,490 --> 00:13:45,670 reduce toil or technical debt, you first have to accept that 220 00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:49,390 it's there. Yeah. And so you know, so I think there's some 221 00:13:49,390 --> 00:13:52,450 pieces of that, what do you think about that SLO piece? So 222 00:13:52,450 --> 00:13:54,040 why do you think that's a struggle? 223 00:13:54,370 --> 00:13:57,580 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I think the the challenge of it has 224 00:13:57,730 --> 00:14:03,100 always been really defining what it is they are delivering from 225 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:06,670 an outcome perspective and the conversation between those who 226 00:14:06,670 --> 00:14:09,640 are creating it, or those who are fixing it, and those who are 227 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,270 operating it. And those who are actually consuming it be at the 228 00:14:13,270 --> 00:14:16,570 employee level of systems of record or system of engagements 229 00:14:16,570 --> 00:14:19,300 at the customer level, those conversations are very, very 230 00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:22,840 difficult to have, and then put that into some kind of a 231 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,730 perspective. I remember one conversation at my job at 232 00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:32,830 Forrester, where a gentleman was asking me to help him move from 233 00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:40,150 a 99.4 nines, right 99.9999 availability to five nines. And 234 00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:44,320 so of course, as an analyst, my question was, why would you want 235 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,180 to do that? And he had no answer. He really didn't have an 236 00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:52,870 answer. So we actually calculated for him, he just 237 00:14:52,870 --> 00:14:56,710 thought that was the right thing to do. We didn't calculate it 238 00:14:56,710 --> 00:15:00,730 that what it would cost for him to actually do that. And he was 239 00:15:00,730 --> 00:15:04,210 like, Oh my gosh, I don't think my business will fund that. So, 240 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,570 right, the the conversation of having a service level 241 00:15:07,570 --> 00:15:12,160 objective, which is tied to an SLA, and is defined through 242 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:17,410 SLIs, becomes difficult to define. And as we are in this 243 00:15:17,410 --> 00:15:22,540 digital world as things, our customer experience and employee 244 00:15:22,540 --> 00:15:27,010 experience is like the utmost goal of everybody, how is it 245 00:15:27,010 --> 00:15:30,460 defined? What's the benchmark? How do I capture that? And I 246 00:15:30,460 --> 00:15:33,490 think that's the challenge. There's plenty of more work to 247 00:15:33,490 --> 00:15:37,630 do to understand how and what and I think it's really a matter 248 00:15:37,630 --> 00:15:41,080 of bringing people together across the value stream, looking 249 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:46,600 at from the outside in, what is it we want to do versus what we 250 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,730 and it think we should be doing? 251 00:15:49,650 --> 00:15:52,770 Jayne Groll: Absolutely. And you know, the other thing about SRE 252 00:15:52,770 --> 00:15:55,650 that I find particularly fascinating, is while there's a 253 00:15:55,650 --> 00:15:59,220 series of books that were published by Google, that isn't 254 00:15:59,430 --> 00:16:03,330 necessarily the you know, the body of knowledge or the 255 00:16:03,330 --> 00:16:07,140 prescriptive guidance, or it isn't religious, right, and we 256 00:16:07,140 --> 00:16:10,410 say some of these frameworks became religious. And so now, 257 00:16:10,530 --> 00:16:14,970 we've grafted other things into this umbrella of essary, like 258 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,450 observability, or chaos engineering, right? Things that 259 00:16:18,450 --> 00:16:21,930 would have existed outside of it, and could have been part of 260 00:16:21,930 --> 00:16:26,070 framework wars, right. But now, you know, this whole concept of 261 00:16:26,070 --> 00:16:29,130 IT operations under Site Reliability, or systems, 262 00:16:29,130 --> 00:16:35,700 reliability engineering, now, graphs, other practices. So what 263 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:37,740 are you seeing in that direction? I think, because 264 00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:41,310 again, as a human, that gives me new opportunities, collaborate 265 00:16:41,310 --> 00:16:43,590 gives me new things to learn, like observability, in 266 00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:50,070 particular, I think is just really risen, as practices that 267 00:16:50,070 --> 00:16:51,660 are considered part of that surgery. 268 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,150 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah. So on the people side, if I, if I 269 00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:57,150 think of it from people process technology, from a people side, 270 00:16:57,150 --> 00:17:01,140 I think, individuals who are really looking for a new career, 271 00:17:01,350 --> 00:17:04,830 this is a great way to get into engineering, if you are an 272 00:17:04,830 --> 00:17:08,220 operations professional, get, you know, get yourself some 273 00:17:08,250 --> 00:17:13,890 upskilling and move. That's one thing. from a leadership 274 00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:18,330 perspective, I think having the perspective to look at those 275 00:17:18,330 --> 00:17:21,000 people you have in your team and give them the chance to maybe 276 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,140 shift to a role like that is another thing. And then maybe 277 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:27,150 from an organizational perspective, that's still around 278 00:17:27,150 --> 00:17:30,420 people, maybe we need to think about how we organize our teams 279 00:17:30,420 --> 00:17:34,680 a little bit different from a process perspective. All these 280 00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:37,650 things we mentioned, you know, knowledge management, incident 281 00:17:37,650 --> 00:17:41,160 management, configuration management, right? The evil 282 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,900 CMDBA, the CMDB, yes, or no, or change management, all these 283 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:50,370 things will become more natural. And then from a technology 284 00:17:50,370 --> 00:17:54,180 perspective, everybody wants to go to the cloud, we know we have 285 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,380 to go to the cloud organizations are shifting, but there is 286 00:17:58,380 --> 00:18:03,990 opportunities as well to become a kind of a stack person around 287 00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:07,320 the cloud. Now, one thing I want to make sure everybody knows 288 00:18:07,470 --> 00:18:11,430 this SRE is not just for companies who are in the cloud 289 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:15,030 or going to the cloud, we see a lot of organizations who have 290 00:18:15,030 --> 00:18:17,820 very mixed and hybrid environments who are applying 291 00:18:17,820 --> 00:18:22,620 sre. And even in the mainframe, there isn't really a perfect 292 00:18:22,620 --> 00:18:28,620 technology stack for adopting SRE. SRE is more of how and what 293 00:18:28,620 --> 00:18:33,240 you do rather than around a specific technology. So let me 294 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,010 ask you a question. Jane. What about next year? What's your 295 00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:40,920 prediction for next year? And I hope we will do the research 296 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,120 again. And we'll look forward to of course, do it in the same 297 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:50,970 cadence. We usually do our survey around the November 298 00:18:50,970 --> 00:18:54,180 September timeframe. And then sorry, in May and then 299 00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:57,840 republished around July. So any predictions for next year? 300 00:18:58,590 --> 00:19:01,470 Jayne Groll: Yeah, I think SRE is going to continue to be 301 00:19:01,470 --> 00:19:06,300 adopted by organizations. I think that, you know, if we look 302 00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:09,420 at kind of the evolution of practices, starting with agile, 303 00:19:09,420 --> 00:19:14,370 which is, what, 20 years ago, now over 20 years ago, and you 304 00:19:14,370 --> 00:19:17,910 know, kind of the scaling of agile and then DevOps, which is 305 00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:22,230 11/12 years ago, and looking at how do we shift left? And how do 306 00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:25,410 we, you know, adopt more automation and the human 307 00:19:25,410 --> 00:19:28,830 collaboration, it feels like essary is that third piece of 308 00:19:28,830 --> 00:19:34,380 the puzzle. And I think that organizations will start to see 309 00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:36,630 and there'll be more case studies that are released, of 310 00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:40,950 course, our report will do will do every year. And I think 311 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,540 there'll be a migration because the digital first world which 312 00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:48,480 we're moving into, and we got pushed into maybe a little 313 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,590 faster than we thought we would. You're right, you don't have to 314 00:19:52,590 --> 00:19:56,130 be in the cloud to adopt SRE practices, right. It's just 315 00:19:56,130 --> 00:20:00,210 about good practices and IT operations but I think also It's 316 00:20:00,210 --> 00:20:04,290 gonna break some of the barriers that we've seen with say IT 317 00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:08,580 Service Management that have always been, there's some really 318 00:20:08,580 --> 00:20:12,090 great guidance and IT Service Management. But there's always 319 00:20:12,090 --> 00:20:16,140 been a disconnect, say between those that are pre production 320 00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:18,780 and those that are post production. And SRE seems to 321 00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:22,650 break down those those walls. I think that the job, we're gonna 322 00:20:22,650 --> 00:20:26,970 see more and more people really start to move into those roles, 323 00:20:26,970 --> 00:20:30,030 regardless of what their history was whether they came from 324 00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:33,510 opposite they came from dev, right. So I see this trending 325 00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:38,010 faster, because the definition of IT operations is no longer no 326 00:20:38,010 --> 00:20:42,420 ops, we called it "new ops" five years ago. And I think SRE is 327 00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:47,760 really new ops, and it will build very, very rapidly, 328 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,030 probably more rapidly than agile or DevOps. What do you think? 329 00:20:51,030 --> 00:20:52,200 What do you see next year? 330 00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:55,140 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I agree. Absolutely agree. And I'm a 331 00:20:55,140 --> 00:21:00,270 little bit disappointed in us in the analyst community at the 332 00:21:00,270 --> 00:21:03,780 time that we did not come up with that term Site Reliability 333 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:08,460 Engineering, and we talked about new ops. But yes, I think the it 334 00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:15,090 gives a complete new career path and allows for a, an engineering 335 00:21:15,090 --> 00:21:19,530 path for young folks to get into the millennials of today, as we 336 00:21:19,530 --> 00:21:23,340 know, they're very different. I have to at home, they don't have 337 00:21:23,370 --> 00:21:27,600 it careers, but I do see how they click and how they work. So 338 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,590 for them, I think that's going to be a great opportunity. All 339 00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:35,940 right. Well, for anybody listening in, Jane, thank you. 340 00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:40,230 This was fantastic. Appreciate your time. We have a report 341 00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:45,090 anybody listening in if you are a fantastic case study on SRE, 342 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:49,050 reach out if you need some ideas on how to upskill reach out, you 343 00:21:49,050 --> 00:21:52,290 know, where we where we are, the report can be found on the 344 00:21:52,290 --> 00:21:56,700 DevOps Institute comm. website. If you have questions, comments, 345 00:21:56,730 --> 00:22:01,080 we are happy to entertain. Great, thank you. This was a 346 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:06,150 very easy first podcast for me. Thank you for being so easy to 347 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,450 transition into this role. Have a great day and thank you, 348 00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:09,990 everybody. 349 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:12,360 Jayne Groll: Thanks, Evelyn. Thanks, everyone.