Hello and welcome to the sci guys.

The show we talk about

the crazy, weird and wonderful stories from the science world.

I'm Corry, and as always, I'm

joined by my co-host, Luke Cutforth and special guest Elliot Douglas.

Wahey!

What?

This week we're talking about [fingerspells “deafness”...

poorly]

I signed deafness really badly.

I spelt it out in BSL for anyone that’s listening.

How’d I do?

I suppose as well.

If anyone's listening,

they can't exactly see you trying to sign right now

No one deaf is going to be listening to this, so that's fine. Yeah.

No, actually that’s so true.

I don't really listen to podcasts at all.

I wonder why?

Except this one.

This is the only podcast I will interact with.

Well, it’s got, Elliot’s stamp of approval.

But first, let's do a little Apple Review.

This one says these guys are genuinely so educational while

still managing to be ten times more hilarious. It's

so enjoyable, easy listening and lovely to learn from such passionate people.

That's lovely.

Thank you.

That's lovely.

So shall we get into the topic of today?

Yes. No, we won't because we're doing a little question first,

the question that I've got for everyone listening or watching.

If you're watching or listening, get down to the YouTube comments

and answer this question.

Do you know any sign languages, BSL, ASL, any other sign languages?

Do you? I'm actually. I'm learning. I'm learning

I was asking that

because I was like, obviously you do, but okay.

No, no, I don't Not every deaf person signs, Luke No, well I'm learning.

Well, you've learned one thing.

Let's learn some more things.

We're obviously talking about deafness today.

Elliot, why are you joining us for this episode on deafness?

Because I am deaf. No way. Really? What?

I thought you were just like a really bad listener.

I thought that was the thing Selective hearing.

[Laughter] No, okay.

So we're talking about deafness today, but before we get into that,

let's talk about how hearing works. Right?

Do either of you know how hearing works?

Sort of. Sort of.

Yeah, yeah.

I have an idea.

You know what they teach you at school, like with the with the cochlea

and you have these little singular hair cells

and they vibrate at certain frequencies and stuff You know a lot more than just a

little bit. Yeah, you know how it works. Yeah.

So let's just run through it, right?

There are three different parts of your ear.

You've got your outer

ear, your middle ear and your inner ear, your outer ear is the pinna.

And you know, the bit that you can see, the fleshy bit on the outside

and that kind of tube that goes in.

I'm not going to be super specific here.

We’re just going to blast through this to get to

the good stuff, the meaty stuff, right.

So you got your outer ear, the sort of tube that goes in and your

your pinna - the outside, bit.

You've got your middle ear, which is the sort of bones,

your ear bones, and then you've got your inner ear, which is the cochlea

and all the little hairs that transport the sound waves to your brain.

So the way the hearing essentially works

is hearing is a sense that we use to take sound vibrations in the air

or water, whatever medium you happen to be in at the time, and transform

those into electrical signals that your brain can understand, right?

Yes. That's essentially what hearing is.

And the way that that works is you've got the pinna

that's the outside of the ear that we were speaking about.

The bit that you get pierced and all that, that

basically is like a little sort of radio dish.

It kind of takes collects in all the sound.

It collects in those vibrations.

And then those vibrations travel down that tube in the middle of your ear.

You know, it travels down inside your ear.

And then it's that eardrum which vibrates, which vibrates some bones.

There's lots of vibrating going on, basically.

It vibrates some bones.

It is sound, so... You’re right.

It vibrates some bones, which I guess

sort of vibrates some fluid, you've got your cochlea.

There's the hair cells that you're mentioning in there,

and those hair cells vibrate

and they'll send little electrical signals to your brain.

That's basically how it works, right?

We've got an understanding.

Yep, yep, yep. Cool.

Good, great.

Glad. So let's move on.

What is deafness? Again?

Like many things in life, it is a spectrum one would assume.

Luke you can't keep on saying this every single episode.

I said that- I actually said it in the episode we recorded just before this,

it was

about self-driving cars, which also exist on a spectrum.

Oh, it does.

I feel like I'm not the best person to answer this.

Maybe like deafness is an absence of hearing.

Yeah. So, yeah, yeah, that's pretty.

That's pretty spot on Essentially it’s an absence of hearing, um and it’s

a spectrum and it comes in different, different forms as far as I'm aware.

Yeah, absolutely.

So you've got deafness.

You could talk about hearing loss.

Now, generally,

when I've been researching

this, people are talking about hearing loss,

which is an interesting way of talking about it,

I think, because they talk about sort of congenital hearing loss,

which is hearing loss from birth,

which isn't quite loss if you never had it in the first place.

You know, I mean.

I'm not that involved in the community sort of just because I kind of grew

up quite isolated from it.

I didn't have lots of deaf friends in my

like immediate day to day life when I was at school and things like that.

But what I was going to say is within the deaf community,

there seems to be this sort of not policing,

but around what language is used when it comes to deaf people.

You don't want to talk about having a hearing loss

because have you actually lost something?

Yeah, which is exactly kind of as you said.

Yeah, no, no, this is this is what I find interesting when we

talk about sort of the deaf community, because there is a whole community there

that generally hearing people are just not really aware of at all.

And interestingly, it can be quite an insular community.

Right. Have you found have you found that personally?

Not personally.

Like with other deaf people that I've interacted with, like it's

very like wholesome.

But I mean, I watched Sound of Metal like maybe a year or two ago

when it came out and I could it was just this deaf community

who only signed there was no, like, vocal communication at all.

And that was really interesting for me to watch as a deaf person

because I didn't realize that those sort of deaf communities existed, like of just.

No, yeah, no, no speaking sign only like I kind of would like that, you know.

Fair enough.

When I say it's insular.

That's not that's not denigration.

I understand why it makes sense,

but it's something that I don't think a lot of people generally consider.

And I said up top, I mean, we mentioned it in this episode

that we did with Tom Scott a couple of weeks ago.

But I said up top that, you know, I say a couple weeks ago, this was last week

I said up top sign languages because there are multiple sign languages.

Obviously people don't think about that either because people just kind of see

deaf people as disabled and that's it.

They're just they're just a bunch of disabled people off,

you know, struggling to get through the world.

But that's not that's a really, really strange

and not very helpful way to look at the deaf community.

I was going to say like I've I had someone recently ask,

oh, do you understand the sign language that was in this clip for something?

And I was like, Well, that's American sign language, so I'm not going to.

And a lot of people either seem to think that there's one universal

sign language which actually would be kind of useful

in terms of if it could translate well between other languages.

But I don't think it quite

could because of grammar and all sorts of other things like that.

But every, you know, every language has its own sign language as well.

So it's sign languages.

Yeah, it's interesting because we were talking to Tom, Tom

Scott about this last week.

So if you go check out our episode on linguistics

last week, you can find those conversations.

But he mentions that there are some sign languages that aren't connected at all

to any spoken languages, which is really interesting

because then they've got different grammar and whatnot.

And so I think the way that you can have that universal sign language

is just by having one that is disconnected from any spoken language.

So yeah, back to sort of deafness.

And again, we're going to talk about hearing loss.

I'm just I'm saying that because that's what's in the papers.

I don't really I don't really agree necessarily with that framing of it.

But to be fair, there are some people that do experience hearing loss

and it's kind of all lumped in together, unfortunately.

So the language isn't quite there.

So you could talk about people that are hard of hearing, hearing loss

and deaf people.

None of those three groups are necessarily all the same people.

Right.

Like those are three different terms for three, not entirely separate, but

somewhat distinct groups.

I think it also depends on the individual.

Yeah How they want to identify their deafness and when I because I guess

what I have, I know that I have about a 70% loss.

Right? I say loss again.

It just feels it feels weird to me now

because I'm like actually to be fair, this is all I've ever known.

I've just been deaf all throughout my life and always told that saying

deaf was bad, not a bad word, but like not to call it being deaf.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

To not call it being deaf and it was often called my hearing problem by my parents.

Right.

But it's not really a problem there, is it?

Because you get by just fine like you're doing.

You're doing as well as you can.

I think that, you know, and I'm glad we've gotten to

this conversation so soon, we'll get into the science in a bit.

Don't worry. We’ve got it there. It's coming. It's coming.

But what I find interesting is that the deaf community is one

that is, you know, as far as you know, the disabled community goes,

the deaf community

are a group of people.

That's a lot

a lot of people in the deaf community don't want to be seen as disabled.

And they reject the label disabled, which you really only see otherwise

and I guess sort of in the autistic community and and, you know, groups

like that, because you can be almost entirely self-sufficient when you're deaf.

It just takes people paying attention to the fact that you're deaf

and taking that into account, you know?

Yeah That's all it takes.

I went to a workshop at Cannes this year with people who,

some of whom identified as differently abled as opposed to disabled,

and they weren't deaf

or weren't necessarily deaf and they weren't necessarily autistic.

They were had different abilities sometimes, sometimes physical abilities,

and they identified as differently abled.

So that was worth bringing in there. Yeah. No, no, it's interesting.

My my my point is not just not just the term disabled or differently abled.

I mean, I do

get I get that as a deaf person because in some sense it is a disability.

Right.

However, I'm not like I haven't you know, there's nothing wrong.

I have very good sight.

You know, my my physical mobility is fine.

It's just I guess I'm.

Yeah, I can't hear it so much, but, like, it's

it's weird because I feel like I do fit and I don't fit into this disabled

or what I suppose people think of when they hear the word disabled as well.

You know, people who hear the word disabled or see the word say anyway.

Oh, not quite woke enough there, Elliot.

People see the word disabled and they think of someone in a wheelchair

or think of just a disability

that isn't necessarily deafness and it's a spectrum. Hey!

I do think I do think I'm glad you brought that up

because that was the next point I was about to make, that

I think the rejection of the disabled label is less to do with actually

being disabled, you know, in the sort of stricter sense of the word

and more with the social view of what disability is.

And I guess as well, there's we can very briefly

talk about the social model of disability where in

the classic example is imagine that, you know, tomorrow you wake up

and everybody's got sort of wings and everyone's able to fly

and they start, you know, removing stairs and, you know, all of that sort of stuff.

So you can't you can't fly, but you're perfectly able

to get up to that building if if they just have stairs there.

And why are there not stairs? I can get there if you give me stairs.

That's kind of an idea of the social model

disability that disability comes not necessarily from, you know,

within the person or within within the disability itself- It’s

societal, yeah, definitely like the societal like accessibility to things.

You know, for example, if I went to this, oh gosh, I think about this all the time

when I go to like screenings and events,

I just wish they were they would subtitle it.

Same The amount of people who aren't deaf, who use subtitles

because they have an auditory processing disorder

or because they just find it helps because I'm not going to lie.

TV nowadays has so many sounds going on at once, it can be really difficult

and also the actors lips might not always be visible on the screen

when they're talking.

I just think that subtitles should just be everywhere or

just used in cinema way, way, way more than they actually are.

I don’t see the problem with it.

Because it makes it it just makes it so accessible to people.

And yeah.

What you were saying about the societal Just to touch on the subtitles part.

I think it's interesting because Noah, the fifth Sci Guy uses subtitles

constantly because he has ADHD and it helps him focus on what is being said.

I can use subtitles and I sometimes like having subtitles on.

Other times I get too focused on reading subtitles or

the subtitles are bad and they ruin jokes and so I will.

If I'm watching a comedy

and I can have the subtitles off, generally I will turn them off because

because the subtitles are bad, nothing to do with subtitles themselves.

But then I also have a friend who also probably has ADHD

and cannot stand subtitles because that's all that they can focus on.

Like you've watched.

We've watched a film with them and they're like,

I've seen them literally hold up a piece of paper to cover the bottom of the screen

because Noah was like, I need subtitles or this is unintelligible to me.

Yes And this friend was like, Well,

I need to have this covered or I cannot watch it.

And like I get like having, having subtitles everywhere

and that would probably be for the best.

But it's so interesting how these different sort of

but how different sort of accessibility needs can conflict with one another.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

It feels like you could just have

again, I'm just going to say, I went to Cannes again this year.

It just feels like I.

Did you go to Cannes, the film festival?

And it's a coincidence that this is two stories so far have come up.

I went to Cannes this year.

Below the cinema screens because we're in France

and not everyone's speaking English because it’s an international festival.

You went to an international film festival? To Cannes?

Oh yeah. To Cannes.

They had like a little mini screen underneath, almost like a Nintendo DS.

Underneath all the screens, there's a little mini screen

that has the subtitles on, and that was great.

But then you're right.

Like it might be annoying if you, for example,

somebody who cannot pay attention to anything when the subtitle are

there, that might be a different difficulty in a different way.

We could just have like, you know, like little 3D glasses.

I was thinking that That’s a thing, isn’t it?

it's invisible if you don't have the glasses on.

Yeah, well, this is I mean, there are so many ways

that we can make things accessible that. Was that Cannes?

No Luke. I went to Cannes this year.

There are so many ways that we could make things accessible.

Yeah. Anyways, so

no, I

find it really, really interesting how all of this sort of works and I think that

the deaf community is one that is really almost the poster child for this.

“I'm rejecting the label disabled because I'm not disabled.

You're the problem.” And I understand that to, you know, to a great degree.

Like, I really get it.

Like with with ADHD, it's very much a thing of like,

okay, look, there are issues that I deal with

and the issues I'm going to deal with regardless of having ADHD or not.

But also, you could make life easier for me.

Absolutely. Look, I'm going to be five, 10 minutes late.

Don't be on me for that because I'm coming in

and I'm doing more work than you anyway, you know what I mean?

Like, okay, this deadline is a bit of an issue.

If it can be moved by a day, let it move by a day

and don't have a go at me for it because I have a disorder.

So I mean, like, so I think we're seeing the label

disability and I get pointing out where accessibility

is like

it could, where making things accessible could make life easier.

But also I think that we need to really sit and think about how we feel

about the label disabled because again, society

has put all of these connotations

on the label disabled, but if you put your hands up and say,

well, there are some things that, you know, because of the way

my body works, the way my brain works, blah, blah, blah,

there are some things that I can’t do that other people do

or certain needs that I have that other people maybe don't have.

And, you know, if we if it crosses a certain threshold, then we

we call that disability.

I don't think that's necessarily like a bad thing.

And I think it would be really beneficial to sort of

remove those negative connotations

from disability, because if it was just a neutral thing,

it's like, hey, I'm I'm disabled in this way.

That's perfectly fine.

And I'm not saying that, you know,

deaf people should want to call themselves disabled or whatnot.

I totally understand it.

I'm just saying, as a general sort of societal move, having less of a stigma

towards disability, I think would be a net positive for everyone.

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.

I, I, I had so many things that I started thinking about as well.

Like if we're talking about like society and the way it views things.

I was on the BBC, All That Glitters, jewelry making You were on the BBC?

Yeah, I was on the BBC

Oh my God, are we just dropping, like, fun things that we’ve done?

No, but I was going to say, like as a deaf person watching a hearing person wear-

put the earcuffs that had been made for me on, watching someone who was hearing

put those on and like just seeing how they'd sort of

like accessorized the ear and made it look cool.

I was like, ugh.

I wish everyone just could could wear jewelry like that.

And like it was just what you said about sort of, like, just having this net place.

Yeah. that society is at, would be, ah.

If you're not understanding what I'm meaning.

And you like, what are you talking about?

Okay, let me just if you're watching this, let me just very quickly

illuminate exactly what I mean.

I am disabled in that I cannot see without like I can't see my

my hand is in focus for everyone listening.

I've just taken off my glasses because I don't have contacts in today.

I can't see my hand in focus until it's here.

For anyone listening, that's about six inches away from my face.

I would literally be disabled if it were not for the fact that glasses

are accessible and affordable and just just just easy to get.

And people don't look down on people for wearing glasses to the point where,

what you were saying there where, you know, glasses are now jewelry.

People will wear glasses when they don't need to wear glasses

because they look cool

Absolutely In the same sense that I feel like you're saying,

oh, it’d be cool if people wore hearing aids

Just like earcuffs and like cool I think I think you're hearing aids

look really tight.

Like, Oh! [laughter] I would literally.

I would literally wear that.

I'm like, that's a cool like you've got like a red in your ear.

That’s a cool way to accessorise.

I think it looks like you’re about to go on stage

I've started colour coordinating with the red.

Like, honestly, here's the thing.

I came from a place of being so ashamed of my deafness when I was,

you know, especially okay for anyone watching who doesn't know who I am.

I'm also trans and I used to have long hair

and it would cover my hearing aids because I was too scared of people seeing them.

But then so with transitioning, I had I wanted to cut my hair short.

And that was like the first time

in my life that I was showing off my hearing aids.

And then I sort of started to reach a point where I was I,

I actually shouldn't feel ashamed of this anymore.

And anything,

if anything, want to show it off and make it visible

and especially what

we've been saying about society and like how people perceive you,

I kind of want to see I want people to see that I'm deaf

because I need people to know that they need to be patient with me

and one of the things that you were saying about,

you know, if you've got

ADHD and you've got this deadline, you you're asking them for patience.

You're just asking them for understanding.

And like, that's kind of how I want the public to to be.

Like, most of the time they're fine when I told them I'm deaf

and they’re like “Oh I'm really sorry I didn't realize.”

But like I've not really had any major problems.

I've had a couple, but.

I would actually argue that I don't think people need to be patient with you.

And this is this is coming from my interactions with you and other people

in that

I have seen situations and I've tried to be

more conscious of this myself since having conversations with you about this.

But all you need most of the time is if you're in

a loud environment, is for people to look at you when they're talking.

And it's not hard. It's not hard at all.

But like, I look I look around when we're in a group talking,

I look around and people just don't think about it.

And all it takes is just, hey,

think about this just a little bit, and it's it's all good.

I don't even think you need patience because

when people are giving you patience it's because they're not giving you

what you need in the first place.

You know, I mean, which is involving you I think what I mean is.

Yeah.

So like I've started,

I have I've got this retail job recently and it's, it's, I won't say where it is

because I don't want to dox myself, but it's a little, It's

down in the description.

It's in London somewhere and it's in London somewhere.

And a lot of the customers that we get in

might have an accent or might have flown in internationally from somewhere.

And I really struggle with accents. Yeah.

And, and stuff.

So it's just like I guess patience in that sense

because I will be asking them to repeat themselves a lot.

But again, it's

I was going to say in terms of like allyship to a deaf person,

what you were saying within our friendship group.

Noah’s birthday where we all went go kart racing

and he literally everyone

was gathered round getting the instructions before we went and did it.

And Noah came and grabbed me and put me at the front like literally was “Mate,

can you can you hear him okay?

Can you lip read okay?” And I was just like, that is so considerate

like that was a real standout moment to me where a friend is actually

being considerate in that way.

Yeah It's not like I expect people to make a massive deal

out of it, but like what you said, just being considerate

and like thinking, oh, there's, there's a deaf person in this situation.

I don't want to exclude them.

But you know, again, it's a bare it's the bare minimum.

And again, to

to bring it back to the glasses thing, this is not me being like,

oh yeah, wearing glasses is the same as being blind or being deaf.

That's not my point.

My point is that it literally would be were it not for all of the infrastructure

and, you know, social sort of accessibility that we've got to the

to the sort of like aids that you need to, you know, sort of engage with the world

when you when you like, when you have, like, myopia or something.

There's also lots of positive social connotations to wearing glasses.

Yeah.

Like, and then I want someone once asked me about this.

I don't know if you get this.

I sometimes people just ask me things and expect me to know the answer

because we do a science podcast

all the time.

They ask me like, Why are glasses seen as sexy?

So I went away and did some research and like apparently it's like in part

because there's some correlation between

a gene that causes poor eyesight and intelligence level.

Whether that's true, I don't know.

But imagine if it was like, oh, you're wearing hearing aids.

You must have fantastic fashion sense.

Absolutely.

I mean. Honestly, yeah.

I don't want to I don't want to curtail this conversation,

but I'm going to have to get into the science the last thing.

So, yeah, no, no, no.

Let's get into the science The last thing I'll say

the last thing I'll say is again, look, glasses are

glasses are a thing that are ubiquitous across our society.

Right?

We all we all know someone that wears glasses.

In fact, we don't even think about people that we know

that wear glasses because we don't even think about it. Right.

And with a lot of with a lot of different aids for disability

or a lot of different disabilities, we could just have that view,

that sort of outlook and that mode of dealing with them.

And yet we don't. Right.

And what I'm saying, like all it takes is that little bit of consideration.

Like, if I'm not wearing my glasses

and someone knows that, like I've just woken up and I'm like, “Oh,

I don’t have my glasses

on” or I’m like “Hey, can, can you point out where they are?

Because I don't remember where I left them.”

like it's just being Oh, there they are.

Let me show you this on your phone

and like holding it up to my face so I can see it.

It's like little things like that that aren't even like things.

It's just bearing in mind who you're interacting with. Right.

I think that's all it takes.

By the way, I was going to say, you look so smart.

Thank you. In an intelligent way, not in a formal way.

I put on my glasses while Corry was talking about

glasses Ding-a-ling-ling, is that the ad bell?

He’s ringing again? Why’s he ringing this time, Corry?

He's ringing for After Dark, Luke.

Why have we gendered our ad bell, Corry?

Because he's a boy and I want to respect him just like I respect After Dark

our sister show to this podcast, Sci Guys After Dark is what happens

after Sci Guys ends - we just chat about whatever we want to chat about.

Have you ever been listening

to Sci Guys and gone, “God, I wish there were less facts”.

Then you can listen to After Dark “I wish

there were more opinions in this show.” More philosophy and politics.

Yes, then After Dark is the show.

Corry and I sit down and maybe with a guest sometimes

sit down and discuss just more sort of floaty

woo woo ideas about things we think with our brains.

And where can they watch this wonderful, wonderful show, Luke?

Well, they can listen to it and watch it at Patreon.com/SciGuys

our Patreon, where you can also support us

and help us keep doing this thing that you apparently like us doing.

Did you say Patreon.com/SciGuys?

Yes I think I did I think I did say Patreon.com/SciGuys.

Well, if you want to listen to After Dark, it seems like

you should get to Patreon.com/SciGuys That’s Patreon.com/SciGuys

in case you weren't paying attention.

Now pay attention because we're about to start the show.

Oh, my attention has been paid and will continue to be paid until the end

when I go home.

Let's get into the science. So excited for the science.

Oh, good.

I'm glad. I love. I love the science. This is great.

So let's just quickly run through deafness again and the causes

and I'm going to fire through those

because there's some other stuff I want to talk about.

We definitely need to get to.

So over 5% of the world's population

require rehabilitation to address their disabling hearing loss,

according to the World Health Organization.

Again, this is this kind of shows you how sort of the medical community

treats deafness very much as a problem to be fixed,

which I understand the pushback from the deaf community on that,

because there seems to be a very interesting divide

that we can get into later when it comes to, you know, sort of

whether basically how people view deafness, because some people

definitely view deafness as a disability and well, I don't want my kids to be deaf.

And then there's other people in the deaf community that are like,

deafness is fine.

I want my kids to be part of this culture.

I want them to be deaf.

And both of those views are entirely valid

and it's such a it's such a complex kind of conversation to have.

So let's just let's just rush through this. So.

Yeah of course.

Disabling hearing loss refers to hearing loss greater than 38 decibels

in the better hearing ear.

Essentially, there's a certain level beyond which if you can't hear

like this, this amount, we will say that is disabling.

That's disabling hearing loss, disabling, obviously in quotes there

and hearing loss, the prevalence of it increases with age

among those older than 60 years, over 25% are affected by disabling hearing loss.

And it's interesting as well, because there's a difference here between

hearing loss and deafness.

So we kind of covered a little bit of hearing loss, hard of hearing

which you might have seen H.O.H.

That refers to people that have got hearing loss ranging from mild to severe.

And if you're hard of hearing, usually people communicate

through spoken language

rather than through sign But according to the World Health

Organization, according to the NHS, they can also benefit from hearing aids,

cochlear implants and other assistive devices as well as captioning

and deaf people mostly have profound hearing loss,

which means generally very, very little or no hearing

and usually, or not usually, they often can use sign languages for communication.

But then that doesn't apply to all deaf people

because some deaf people lip read, some deaf people use spoken language

and some people have you know, it it's a spectrum.

All of these people are people are individuals.

I was just going to say you have

you have to ears so so so one ear it could be completely profound

like completely deaf the other it could work perfectly fine.

So so And we use the word deaf to refer

to everyone and that's useful and helpful.

Do we, because in your definition

you said like -30 something decibels in the better hearing ear.

Yeah.

And I mean the other ear is then going to be more deaf

than that better hearing ear? Yeah.

So you judge it by the best the better hearing.

Yeah. Yeah.

But my point is that still, you know, the level of you would still use

if someone is sort of got hearing loss in one ear

and is sort of say profoundly deaf in the other ear,

you would still probably you would still probably say they're deaf generally.

Right.

I'm just saying socially speaking, if anyone's got like a decent degree of,

you know, hearing loss or is profoundly deaf in any sort of way,

you know, it's call it just call them deaf.

Generally, someone can't. Okay.

To put it to put it very bluntly, if someone can't hear good,

you usually say that they're deaf, that that's kind of what I'm touching

on, right?

That we've we've got this sort of one phrase

that we tend to use for people that don't hear so good. Yes.

So let's just talk briefly about causes of deafness.

I'm going to go through these in sort of the sort of your lifetime.

I guess so, yeah. You know, sort of chronologically.

So the prenatal period before you're born,

those would generally be genetic factors.

So there's hereditary and non hereditary hearing loss.

So you can also have infections in sort of like intrauterine infection.

So infections could cause hearing loss, you know, before the child is born.

And again, I'm saying hearing loss,

there's not really a quick and easy way of describing that.

I know it sucks, but we move.

Okay. We're going to have to we're going to have to get through this.

The perinatal period.

So that's around birth, you know, the time surrounding birth.

So that's birth asphyxia.

So if you are kind of if you don't get enough oxygen during birth,

if you've got severe jaundice, when you're a newborn,

if you've got a low birth weight or other sort of perinatal morbidities

and how you sort of manage that.

So essentially, any any sort of serious problems can cause deafness

around the time when a sort of child is born.

And in childhood and adolescence, chronic ear

infections can cause hearing loss fluid in the ear.

So there's different types of deafness as well. We'll get into those in a second.

But fluid in the ear can cause hearing loss meningitis when you're older,

chronic diseases, smoking, also autosclerosis,

age related sensoneuraldegeneration and sudden sensoneural hearing loss.

So essentially as you get older, it tends to be more

a case of damage and serious diseases than when you're younger,

the more infections and that sort of stuff.

And then throughout your life, I mean, trauma to the ear or head,

loud noises and loud sounds, you know, certain sort of medicines and chemicals.

Going to a NoahFinnce gig Going to a

NoahFinnce gig - ah don’t say that that, Connor cares about your ears.

He’s the sound guy.

infections, nutritional deficiencies, all of that sort of stuff.

Right.

But let's talk about the types of hearing loss,

because I think this is kind of interesting.

We don't usually sort of think about these.

You've got conductive hearing loss and that's caused by something

that stops sound from getting through to the outer or middle ear.

Remember we spoke about those.

So like if it's

sort of like the outside of your ear, that sort of like tube that goes in

or the bones there, that would be a sort of outer and middle ear.

If something is stopping the sound

from passing through there, that would be conductive hearing loss.

And usually that can be treated with surgery or medicine

if you've got fluid filling your ear or wax filling your ear,

you would have conductive hearing loss, right?

And then you've got senso- sensorineural hearing loss.

I find that word so frustr- Oh yeah yeah yeah.

It's a tough word.

Is it like sensory-neural.

Sensoro?

It’s “Sensor” S E N S O R, I and then neural;

sensorineural Sensorineural It’s hard to say Sensorineural Sensorineural -

AH So that's that's when there's a problem in the

in the way that the inner ear or the hearing nerve works.

So your auditory nerve

if there's a problem with that that would be sensorineural makes sense.

You know like sort of the neuro sensory sort of part of your body.

Mixed hearing loss is obviously a mix of conductive and sensorineural hearing loss.

And then there's auditory neuropathy spectrum disorder, and that occurs

when sound enters that you're normally.

But because of damage to the inner ear or hearing nerve, the sound isn't sort

of it's the brain can't really figure out what's going on with the sound.

Right.

So, you know, the sound is coming in all right

and the sort of signals being made all right.

But the brain can't necessarily make sense of the signal.

Decipher it almost, or make like.

Yeah, so, so.

Actually ge the information?

So it's what I've got here is

that it's not organized in a way that the brain can understand. Right.

So it's the signal isn't it's not being deciphered.

It's not decipherable by the brain Because I feel like when I,

when I am listening to things, I'm also having to like piece together

all of those sounds in my brain, like as a deaf person as well.

Like it's

not just when you're communicating with someone, 30% of it isn't lip reading.

30% of it is me reading your lips.

And then the other percentages of it would be like, I don't know,

your facial expressions, your gestures, what sound to my actually hearing.

Yeah.

And like trying to like the tone of voice, all of that comes into making

a sentence.

Yeah. Like understanding. That's interesting.

So would you say that you when you are hearing

someone say a sentence, are you not are you more sort of

like you're getting the meaning as opposed to hearing every single part of it?

Yeah, absolutely. Like the context.

Yeah.

Is like, yeah, just whenever I'm having a conversation with someone, it's,

it's like I am listening, but I'm also having to piece together

all of this information to, to, to make the full picture

and like to fully understand what is going on.

You know, I think hearing people do that more often than they think as well.

Obviously, you can fall back and rely on your hearing.

But if someone's got an accent you're not quite familiar with,

you're looking at, it's easier when you're looking at their face, right?

Yeah.

And if you've got like issues with processing audio sometimes.

So like sometimes if I'm in a,

if I'm at a party or if I, if I'm focusing on the wrong thing,

sounds just someone talking just won't, it won't be words.

Yeah.

And I've got to then back figure out.

Okay, from the context and from what I saw, what are they.

What are they.

What did they say.

Yeah, I think people don't necessarily especially people who don't have any

like non-normative like differences with their sensory perception

don't necessarily realize that when you are when you're perceiving

anything, when you're perceiving audio or video or whatever, you're perceiving

your perceiving your brain's best guess as to what's going on. Yes.

You're not actually perceiving what's going on.

Your perceiving a sort of best guess hallucination of what's going on,

which is why, you know, I sometimes look at a jumper and I think it's my cat.

Yeah.

Or I hear someone say a different word and I think it's my name.

But I, I heard that my brain told me my name was said

and I saw my cat there, but there's just a jumper there.

It's like the Yanny Laurel thing, right? Yeah.

So the Yanny Laurel thing is there's this one

audio recording that can sound like it's saying Yanny or it's saying Laurel.

You can kind of shift which one you're hearing by reading the word.

And this is what this is kind of what I really want to point out

is that I'm not saying that, you know, us having to figure out things

when we don't quite hear them properly is exactly the same as being deaf.

But my point is that everyone kind of does this to some degree.

It's just like if you're deaf, you've got less information coming in.

It's really got to rely on this stuff that we just kind of use as like

little helpers, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Those, those things that are maybe like little hints, Nudges, yeah

are actually like quite big indicators for deaf people, I would say.

Phoenix's mum Sophie explained it really well to me as well,

like just the idea of having to decipher everything.

Like it's

like you've got all of this information and then you have to piece it together.

Seems exhausting. Is exhausting.

Deaf people will often take hearing

breaks, or deaf breaks, whatever you want to call it.

I think this is really going to be beneficial for people listening

that aren't deaf.

Corry, think about what you're saying.

No, earlier

you said definitely, and I didn't want to interrupt you, but I was like “haha deaf”

Every single time, every single- Look if you're ,if

you're watching or listening, Elliot and I are friends.

And often we will we will make some

some very risque deaf jokes with each other.

Oh, absolutely. And all in good fun.

And only at Elliot's expense.

I mean, Elliot literally started - we were about to hit record and he goes,

I wanna keep a tally of how many deaf jokes you can sneak into the episode

and Corry’s like, No, no, you can do that if you want.

I will not be doing that.

I will be nice this time For once, for once

He’s only nice when he's being perceived.

Yeah.

Well only like nice when I’m being recorded.

That's, that's the key there.

No. So I think this will be

really helpful though for people that are listening that maybe don't have

any deaf friends or family members and anyone in their life.

Because I think that's something that we don't tend to think about.

Like, I think there's sometimes a perception of deaf people as being

like angry, angry at stuff for seemingly no reason.

It's like, well, hold on.

Just imagine you are living in a world where you

you are able to interact with, you know, other people perfectly fine.

But the majority of people refuse to interact with you in a way

that was, you know, natural to you.

And they instead insisted that you do this

very, very tiring thing all the time and don't complain about it.

And also make them feel good about it, too.

That's like I would be I wouldn't be able to do that.

I'd be pretty wound up all the time if that were me to be honest.

I can't really like can’t really be bothered with it.

And, you know, like if you think about that, there you go.

That's why that's why that people are annoyed at you sometimes.

That's why. Yeah.

And there's

well there's something in the deaf community called dinner table syndrome

that is, you know, where you're sat at the dinner table and you

as a deaf person, you can't be interacting as well

as everyone else can, like especially just in group settings in general.

So yeah, no, I agree, I agree.

I think for like anyone that is listening, like

just we're talking about some really good points of to consider.

So consider them, just consider them.

No, so let's move on.

We've spoken a little bit about sort of the different types of deafness.

I was going to talk about how hearing aids work.

But look, put it this way, there's a microphone, an amplifier and a speaker.

They just they just chuck the sound right

into the part of your ear and make it super bloody loud.

That is how they work.

They live literally. It literally is.

If you have a microphone,

there's your input and then you've got your output, which is your amplifier.

And now imagine or like a really, really tiny small scale.

And also that's why, you know, when you get feedback on a microphone,

that's why the hearing aids will also do Oh no, I know.

[Hearing aid feedback] Oh, gosh, whenever you go to hug Elliot,

every now and then you'll just hear the feedback.

And I'm like “heheheh”

Okay, you know, it’s so sweet when we were all like,

people were able to see each other after the pandemic again.

I remember being able to give my friends hugs

for the first time and people being like, Oh my gosh, that's the Elliot sound.

And I was like, That's so sweet, actually, that you associate the feedback

with giving me a hug.

And it's like a little happy squeak.

Yeah, it is, you

know?

So that's roughly how hearing aids work, uh cochlear

implants are a kind of hearing aids that get sort of implanted in your head.

We can do a whole episode on hearing aids and and hearing implants

and all of that sort of stuff at some point.

But I really, really want to move on to sort of the importance of inclusion

here, because there was a study that was done and I read an article

sort of about it and I read around it

that found that the percentage of undergraduate and postgraduate STEM

students who were deaf or had a serious hearing impairment stayed at just 0.3%.

Between 2007/8 and 2018/9 in the UK.

And in the UK, 1.3% of the population are severely or profoundly deaf.

So 1.3% of the population is deaf, let's say,

and 0.3% of uni students between

2007 and 2018 were deaf.

That is a massive disparity, right?

You would expect to see roughly 1.3%.

If not, what barriers are there for deaf people?

There are obviously a lot of barriers in place.

You know, sort of going to university and studying STEM for deaf people.

And you know, there are some that you might not think about.

So obviously

not having sort of interpreters is is one thing that is that is an issue.

That's a big one.

That's a big one.

The amount of deaf friends that would be like,

well, I turned up to the shoot

or this thing or whatever, and there wasn't an interpreter there.

So therefore I couldn't participate.

Yeah, it would literally cut off that participation for them.

They can't. They can't. Exactly.

But that's and that's just one part as well. Right?

Like and this is the

that's the sort of not the most obvious one,

but it's probably the one that your mind would jump to immediately.

But another part of that as well is the think about sort of BSL,

think about sign language, how it works, right?

Do you think there are going to be signs like simple signs

for the complex words that are used in in science?

No, there were I don't I wouldn't be surprised

if it had to be finger spelled or like shortened in some way.

Exactly.

And finger spelling is so I mean, if you want to explain, go ahead.

What finger spelling is?

Oh, finger spelling is just where you take the BSL alphabet.

So like A, B, C, D, all of your five,

five vowels on your fingers here because you've got five fingers.

It makes sense.

AEIOU Anyway, when you're finger spelling, that is literally

just spelling out the word using BSL.

But that takes a lot longer than if you if if this is a sign for like work, right?

So I could do work or I could go W O R K, but that takes so much longer.

Exactly.

So for anyone listening,

when Eliot sort of signed work, it's kind of like taking your two hands,

making them flat and hitting them together and sort of cross.

If you don't, you're not sure what's going on.

Google it or go watch a YouTube video.

I'm sorry, we can't we can't describe BSL to you.

Imagine.

Imagine we're translating things into BSL and then translating them back

into spoken words.

But translating to spoken English by describing

An audio description of BSL.

That is like the worst version of Google Translate.

Imagine translating that back and forth, right?

That'd be a fun game though, if you were to get, Oh my gosh.

So if you were to get some signing deaf people

and then hearing people that don't sign at all

and have the hearing people describe the signs to some deaf that people

that sign and see what they what they say.

Yeah it'd be a really fun thing to do. We should try to figure that out.

Such a fun version of, like, Chinese whispers.

Right?

Yeah Like how many layers of English to BSL.

To English, to BSL, to English.

Before it becomes nonsense. Yeah.

Chinese Whispers was one of those games they could never play as a kid.

Oh my God, I couldn't ever play it.

And like, I would try and lip read and then at some point you're just, I mean like

lip reading is only going to do so much.

But yeah, I know I could never play Chinese whispers.

Going to be honest, Eliot,

you could just make it up and you're basically playing it.

You're basically playing Chinese whispers anyway. Well, like I said, I would.

We’ll play it after this, we’ll play it after this. Don’t you worry.

So. No, no, my point here is, you know, so yes, finger spelling takes a long time.

And if you're in a lecture and someone's got to finger spell something,

and not only have you got to wait for them to finish

spelling it, you've also got to be spelling out the word in your head.

Imagine if, you know, I was giving a

I was giving a lecture, I was doing a Sci Guys episode.

And instead of saying mitochondria, you know, I said,

and, you know, if we're talking about the powerhouse of the cell, it's

the M I T C H R O N D I A, right.

You'd be like, okay.

And by that point, I've already start talking

like the lecturer is not waiting for the interpreter

if you're lucky enough to have an interpreter. And you know,

there are so many there are so many factors here, right?

It's it's it.

And what we need to remember is that none of this

none of this reflects on deaf people, that people are not underrepresented

because they're stupid, which is

something that people think of deaf people My gosh. Yeah.

No, it's true. It's true.

You can you can speak speak about your own experience here.

But I think that honestly, like people think of deaf people being stupid

because the way that we sort of measure intelligence in others

often is in their ability to converse, right?

And so if you've got any kind of disability or anything

whatsoever that impacts your way to converse with other people,

people will automatically see you as less intelligent.

Right?

And if you're deaf, your pronunciation or like your diction or like

whatever, like the way you speak might just be different

because that's how you hear sounds

and yeah.

Ah, yes, no. But I do completely agree with you.

I think my my parents had that worry about social stigmas when I was growing up

around my deafness.

And I don't think anyone ever automatically assumed

I was stupid, but You don't even need people to assume that you're stupid.

It's just the little sort of subconscious ways that people interact.

And again, these are things that we need to be conscious of, all of us really.

And I want to talk a little bit more about this.

So, you know, I've got this article here.

You can go read it down in the description.

But, you know, you know, people can wait months

for the sort of accessibility sort of assistance that they need.

You know, you might not be able to have an interpreter in every lecture

or a specialist note taker.

And there is no reason for this, by the way,

the universities are taking enough bloody money that they can pay an interpreter.

They should be able to pay an interpreter to be

in any of the classes that they want.

I'm sorry.

Why don't you just cut down maybe cut down one,

one little bit spending on some things that you've got an interpreter

in whatever class you need because realistically it's 1.3% students, right.

But that's enough to get a set of interpreters, you know, on top of that.

So on top of the not able to actually have interpreters on top of the signing,

you know, there is just a stigma against,

you know, being deaf and that will obviously affect people.

But what I wanted to sort of bring it back to or sort of

steer towards is this more to a positive story.

Because we spoke about how, you know, if you're in a lecture

and even if you've got an interpreter sort of signing,

you will still like you will still have to sort of finger spell things out.

And so what a lot of people have done is

or some people have done is created a whole bunch of new signs for this.

And I wanted to do this this as an episode of Sci Guys

years ago, back when we started, because there is

there's a guy named Liam McMulken and he he was

an undergrad at the University of Dundee, which is where I'm from.

He actually studied with one of my friends and he created

a whole bunch of new signs because he was like, I think the issue was

he was having to,

you know, have his interpreter finger spell stuff out

and he's like, let's just make these signs for these words.

And again, it's this sort of thing of like,

imagine not having a word for something, do you know what I mean?

Like having a concept

that you can spell out but not having like a word for it

that's I guess somewhat comparable to not having a sign for it, right?

Literally, yeah.

I'm like, you know, if you if you then have a sign,

you're then able to like personally sort of understand the concept more

because you've got a thing to apply it to.

So he created

he developed over a hundred new signs and those were accepted into BSL.

So this, this, this one undergrad dude, he just went ahead.

He was like, okay, this isn't working for me.

Let's, let's make this work.

And it was sort of accepted into

the actual language.

That's really cool.

It's brilliant. Right on. Liam, what is his name? Name.

Name is Liam. Go. And Liam.

I've got a quote from him here as well, he said that “I feel really happy.

I know from my own experience how difficult it is to learn during lectures.

Now the new signs have spread.

I feel it will be better for future students.” He went on to study for a

master's degree in regenerative medicine at the University of Dundee.

And the University of Dundee is really good for, you know, certain things.

Apparently, they've got a comprehensive plan

to ensure that they are inclusive and supportive of British sign language users.

That is just that's just in the UK.

But in America for ASL, they've, they've also made a bunch of new signs.

So I tried to learn the sign for DNA in ASL, so which I'm going to suck at this.

They created a whole bunch of new ones, but it's really great.

So I think it's something along the lines of

- hang on, it's like this I will describe.

So Corry places two peace signs sort of next to each other,

like they're scissoring.

And then pulls them away from each other and twists, twists at the time.

And so go to scissor and then pull them away and then twist.

Yeah.

So you twist them, you sort of rotate them 90 degrees.

So if you're listening, let me just explain this to you.

And if you're watching, you can watch. You can watch and listen at the same time.

So what I've got here is I've got two sort of peace signs and they are,

I guess, sort of perpendicular to one another

and sort of intersecting like they're about to scissor right.

And then what I do is I pull them away and rotate them each 90 degrees.

And that's like that's supposed to sort of replicate

represent the DNA double helix, and so it means DNA.

Now that makes so much sense.

And so obviously with ASLl,

the idea

is that you can finger- sort fingerspell with one hand.

So instead of having to, you know, do

sort of do with one hand like, you know, DNA or whatever,

boom, that just one quick sign and you've got the sign for DNA.

And it's this this is what I love about sign languages

is that I feel like they work in a way that my brain likes to work,

which is very visual, it’s The concept, I'm not going to lie.

I the sign for abortion the other day and it's literally.

Oh, gosh.

Could you describe that for the audio?

Oh, so the sign for abortion is literally you get your hand as if it's going to

grab something and then it grabs where sort of your lower abdomen is.

Is that the right- how you pronounce it?

Where your womb would be, yeah.

And then and then you grab it and then you kind of

pull a face of disgust and you throw it What?

Yeah it’s kind of You need the face of disgust?

Face of disgust. So it's sort of like.

Ah it’s great because your faces are.

Yeah.

They’re important for So when you, when you're doing sign language.

So the sign for job and work

is the same, you know, it's this which is the sign we described earlier.

Crossing over. Yeah, the crossing over.

Job and work are the same, but your lip reading is the mouthing.

The word is important in terms of like the context So interesting.

Like I really do want to learn BSL but you know I just my thing is

I need to find a good course because I want- if I'm going to learn it,

I want to learn it.

And also you need to find a course that is, is basically approved

by the deaf community because what a lot of people do is they will teach BSL

without being sort of deaf themselves or having a sanction from the deaf community.

And it's just

and not saying that it's impossible and I'm not doing it, blah blah

blah, I'm just saying I want to do it right.

And it's kind of,

it's kind of better kind of coming from a deaf person or a native speaker.

You have someone who is very much involved in the community

because because here’s the thing; different sign languages

- even within British sign language, there's different dialects. Yes.

And regional signs.

And it's so interesting.

This is the thing, we were talking about this last week in

the episode on linguistics and yeah, you say that, oh, that's so cool.

But yes, but obviously this language has dialects and slang

and you know,

if you learn it from one person, it's gonna be slightly different

to how someone else- because it's a language.

And the reason that this is so sort of shocking and exciting to us

is because we genuinely do not value BSL as a language on par with,

you know, spoken language.

No, it really isn't seen on the same level.

Even like within the government, BSL is not fully recognized

as, as a language in itself and it really should be.

And I think,

I mean I remember

doing tiny bits of BSL at school but actually if they really implemented it

more, yeah, I find us also like helpful when I'm in loud situations.

You know, if you're clubbing with your friends you're like toilet now.

Drunk, exactly, exactly.

Like just it's a great way to be able to without actually having to say

anything like or be able to hear even like.

I was hanging out with a sort of that friend the other day who has a child.

And so they sign, their child is hearing and their partner is hearing,

but they obviously are teaching BSL to the to the to the baby.

And the baby also knows baby sign language.

So they're using BSL and baby sign at the sort of Both called BSL Yeah, right.

It's wild right. Yeah.

But it's so interesting because you see this little kid,

you know, this, this tiny little baby doing little signs like

and sometimes it means sometimes they're meaning B

and sometimes they're meaning like, you know, something else.

And it's so interesting

to watch a little baby that can't speak, communicate through sign

and then It’s possible Why aren’t we doing this, why?

like I genuinely don’t understand, like?

I like I genuinely want to teach my kid sign language BSL

not because it's not because “oh let's make them woke and

and help the deaf-” no like honestly I would like-

Forgetting deaf people for a moment, right.Forget deaf people for a moment.

Like I think it is just beneficial to, to teach your kids BSL

because we, we should all have multiple modes of communicating,

and that's not to take BSL away from the deaf community.

Like, absolutely.

Like I understand that completely It’s so

useful.

As a language, it’s so useful. Yeah.

I mean like it's beneficial for literally everyone like

you wouldn't- like the deaf community can still have their sort of,

you know, sort of their own, their own sort of culture and community and whatnot.

And on top of that, like you still have you’re then able to interact.

You don't have that barrier.

Exactly.

between you and a deaf friend because, you don't speak the language.

As someone who is deaf.

I feel like I have a barrier within my own community.

Like I can't talk to people who are deaf just like I am, who only sign.

Yeah like I cannot talk to them.

I wish I didn't have that barrier.

Yeah I’m sure it would.- Yeah.

It just makes everyone's lives easier, I think.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

And you know what, look,

I mean, if if someone in the deaf and is going to say, we don't want

hearing people learning BSL as a rule, that's our thing.

You know, I totally understand that.

I understand where you're coming from. But like, why?

Why would they have that problem in a sense?

Because if like even if everyone knew how to sign a few signs,

retail experiences like going shopping or something would become a lot easier.

Yeah. No, no, absolutely. I absolutely agree with that.

I just I just want to point out the viewpoint of

sort of basically not wanting necessarily

hearing people to stamp all over and Yes Remove deaf culture.

I mean, to be honest, there was there was one more point I had in here

and it could honestly be an entire episode on it’s own.

iIt was- We won't even get into it, you know, d’you know, we’ll hint at it

for, for maybe a future episode with you

So I was going to talk a little bit about CRISPR gene editing

and how people, how people consider sort of curing

deafness or stopping kids from being deaf and like there's a whole can of worms.

We've had so much conversation that we literally do not have time for it today.

Yeah, but if you really like this episode and you want to see Elliot back again,

head down to the comments,

leave a little comment, let us know that you want to see Elliot

and we might do a future episode with Elliot. If Elliot enjoyed this.

(Unconvinced) Hmm.

Joking! Wow.

Well, with that, why don't we move on to the Quickfire Quiz?

Dun dun dun dun.

Not sure about this.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Deaf Edition!

So the rules for the Quickfire Quiz are the same as always.

I'll ask one question.

That's one question between the two of you.

The first person

to buzz in with the correct answer after I finish asking the question wins.

What do they win Luke?

Elliot's hearing aids.

I really hope you win, Elliott.

Me too. Me too. Me too!

Goodbye hearing!

I just have to learn sign language now.

It's incentive. That's what it is. Exactly.

So, Luke, what is your buzzer.

[squeaking noise] It’s, Elliot‘s, like.

It’s the noise you make when people hug you. Sounds just like hugging.

Elliott. Elliott, what's your buzzer?

What?

Yours is a lot easier to make than mine. Fantastic.

So here we go.

This is the question for the Quickfire Quiz.

The question is, can you answer this question in BSL?

[squeaking noise] What?

Oh, What!

Luke you got there first, but you need to answer this correctly.

Nuh-uh!

No, Elliot come in for the steal. Yes.

Exactly the correct answer.

Again, if anyone is listening, the sign that Elliot did is the one for

yes, which you make a fist and you make it nod its little fisty head.

It's like nodding.

It's like if you were nodding your head.

But just imagine your fist is your head and you just hold it up and then it nods.

Also, if you want to say no,

you know, when you do, when you when you shake your head

and that means no, you do the same with your fist.

And that is it for this week, I think.

But before we go, we'd like to thank all of our Patrons with an extra special

thank you to Executive Producers Danito and Glitch Rabbit.

And thank you for watching.

You can find the full references for this episode down in the description.

Subscribe for new episodes every Sunday, and why not leave us a nice wee comment.

You can support the pod at Patreon.com/SciGuys,

you can find and contact us

on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and @SciGuys on Tik Tok too!

Or send us an email at sciguyspod@gmail.com

That’s sciguyspod@gmail.com!

Sci Guys pod!

@gmail.com! You can follow me @notcorry everywhere!

You can follow me @LukeCutforth everywhere.

And @Evolutionofelliot everywhere. Goodbye.

You got to say something. Goodbye.

People are listening.

People are?

Say goodbye You just waved and said nothing.