1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:02,010 Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:04,800 I'm Lucy Dearlove. 3 00:00:07,540 --> 00:00:10,960 This month I'm releasing a very small series about contemporary 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,350 personal and memoir writing within the loose parameters of 5 00:00:14,380 --> 00:00:19,090 food. In the previous episode with Rebecca Johnson and Angela 6 00:00:19,090 --> 00:00:22,660 Hui, Rebecca talked about the limitations of categorizing 7 00:00:22,660 --> 00:00:27,040 writing as 'food writing'. For - among many reasons - it can feel 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,450 diminutive. The book I'm talking about in this episode, I think, 9 00:00:31,510 --> 00:00:35,230 is a great example of why genre categorisation of any kind - but 10 00:00:35,230 --> 00:00:38,320 particularly within personal writing - can be at best 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,600 limiting and at worst pointless 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,180 Thea Lenarduzzi: Elderly women...women generally 13 00:00:44,380 --> 00:00:47,710 food...migrants...weeds...these are all things that have 14 00:00:47,710 --> 00:00:51,640 generally been overlooked or not considered worthy of scrutiny. 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,310 You know, how many books are there about great men who did 16 00:00:54,310 --> 00:00:57,970 great things and how many other about a grandmother who no one's 17 00:00:57,970 --> 00:00:58,690 ever heard of? 18 00:01:03,580 --> 00:01:06,250 Lucy Dearlove: This is Thea Lenarduzzi, whose book 19 00:01:06,250 --> 00:01:11,320 Dandelions came out last month. Dandelions is not really a food 20 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:15,940 book - if we're going to lean into the categorisation - but 21 00:01:15,940 --> 00:01:19,660 food is a central theme within it. The book follows the history 22 00:01:19,660 --> 00:01:22,480 of Thea's family and their movement and migration between 23 00:01:22,510 --> 00:01:27,370 England and Italy over the past decades and generations. At the 24 00:01:27,370 --> 00:01:31,390 heart is Thea's nonna Dirce with her stories weaving the fabric 25 00:01:31,390 --> 00:01:39,430 of Thea's childhood and family life. The dandelions of the 26 00:01:39,430 --> 00:01:43,450 title appear throughout the book as a recurring motif, most 27 00:01:43,450 --> 00:01:47,680 frequently on the table at family meals. We first meet 28 00:01:47,710 --> 00:01:51,580 Dirce on the first page of the book, picking dandelion leaves 29 00:01:51,580 --> 00:01:55,000 at the side of the road in 1950s Manchester and stuffing them 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,960 into a bag to take home and cook and eat. Thea describes those 31 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,840 around looking askance at her, wondering what on earth she's 32 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,160 doing with those weeds. 33 00:02:07,860 --> 00:02:11,550 So much of personal writing in food focuses on heritage and 34 00:02:11,550 --> 00:02:16,530 family - and understandably so. But down no doubt to the very 35 00:02:16,530 --> 00:02:20,070 white middle class status quo, there can be a tendency towards 36 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:24,810 simplification: of dishes or even a narrative, a family's 37 00:02:24,810 --> 00:02:30,000 history. What Dandelions does so effectively is capture how much 38 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,380 of people's lives rests in the spaces in between; resisting 39 00:02:34,380 --> 00:02:37,950 categorisation and definition, and even slipping between fact 40 00:02:37,950 --> 00:02:42,330 and fiction. But in a way that remains always true and always 41 00:02:42,330 --> 00:02:46,140 significant. Even in the so called mundanity of everyday 42 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:46,650 life. 43 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,700 To begin, I asked Thea - having in mind this heritage of her 44 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:57,360 family's movement between England and Italy - to talk 45 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,240 about her own relationship with food and with cooking. 46 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,260 Thea Lenarduzzi: I suppose if I tell you about the first thing 47 00:03:10,260 --> 00:03:15,030 that I ever learned to cook, it sort of sums up my life. So 48 00:03:15,090 --> 00:03:19,260 under supervision, I was probably about 10. And it was a 49 00:03:19,260 --> 00:03:23,550 tomato sauce for pasta. But ironically, seeing as I was born 50 00:03:23,550 --> 00:03:27,060 and raised living at the time in Italy, I followed a recipe 51 00:03:27,420 --> 00:03:31,260 in...it was in one of my mom's old English cookbooks from like 52 00:03:31,260 --> 00:03:36,420 the 1970s. So that kind of weird Italian English hybrid started 53 00:03:36,510 --> 00:03:38,910 started pretty early on and I'd love to say that it was a 54 00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:42,360 cookbook you know, that was by someone fully vetted or you 55 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,240 know, respected like the silver spoon or Elizabeth David but I 56 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,120 mean, I think it was probably one that came through with, like 57 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,970 the Reader's Digest or something. My my Liverpudlian, 58 00:03:50,970 --> 00:03:53,640 Nana, her mum, my mum's mum would have probably given her 59 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,670 when she set off for university. I mean, I know it can't have 60 00:03:56,670 --> 00:03:59,640 been that bad because I don't think it included anything like 61 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,870 garlic paste or garlic powder. But yeah, probably wasn't the 62 00:04:03,870 --> 00:04:07,230 most legitimate pasta sauce you've ever heard of. 63 00:04:07,810 --> 00:04:10,000 Lucy Dearlove: And was there any sort of interaction between 64 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,910 those two older generations of your family? So I guess like 65 00:04:12,940 --> 00:04:16,270 like your nonna and then and then your mum's mum, your 66 00:04:16,270 --> 00:04:18,580 grandma on that side? Did they ever sort of encounter each 67 00:04:18,580 --> 00:04:20,470 other in terms of cooking or food? 68 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,030 Thea Lenarduzzi: Well, I suppose what they had in common, I mean, 69 00:04:23,030 --> 00:04:24,290 when I think about it, when I think about my, my kind of food 70 00:04:24,290 --> 00:04:26,120 passions, they probably are both on both sides centered around my 71 00:04:31,460 --> 00:04:34,370 grandmother, so that split you know, split down the middle 72 00:04:34,370 --> 00:04:36,530 exactly along the lines of my heritage almost. On the one 73 00:04:36,530 --> 00:04:41,390 hand, there is the kind of simple rusticity I suppose of my 74 00:04:41,390 --> 00:04:44,600 nonna's cooking in Italy, where everything was homemade and you 75 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,740 know, tended to take ages usually from homegrown roots as 76 00:04:48,740 --> 00:04:53,570 well and they'd be like gnocchi with a ragu or polenta with some 77 00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:56,000 kind of slow cooked beast, you know, often dropped off by a 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,830 friend from the mountains and you know, it would have been 79 00:04:57,830 --> 00:05:00,380 boar or deer or goat or something and courgettes and 80 00:05:00,380 --> 00:05:02,900 carrots which she'd grown herself and she'd soften them 81 00:05:02,900 --> 00:05:06,800 for ages over a low heat and then there'd be some wild grass 82 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,430 or other which was always wilted and in a plate of its own. And 83 00:05:10,430 --> 00:05:12,560 then on the other hand, there was my English side, my English, 84 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:17,390 Nana's cooking, which I mean by the time I was I was born and 85 00:05:17,450 --> 00:05:19,700 old enough to know what was going on it was quite heavily 86 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:22,310 influenced by Marks and Spencers you know, it was a lot of 87 00:05:22,310 --> 00:05:26,030 convenience and you know, little luxuries. So there'd be you 88 00:05:26,030 --> 00:05:28,910 know, fun things like dolly mixtures and prawn cocktails not 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,320 together. Obviously. That would have been just weird. But um, 90 00:05:33,350 --> 00:05:35,930 yeah, I guess my favourite...the similarity between the two 91 00:05:35,930 --> 00:05:38,870 grandmas was that my favorite kind of cooking of my English 92 00:05:38,870 --> 00:05:43,550 grandma was also a kind of simple, simple style. It was 93 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:46,400 probably stuff that was slightly adapted from war food, I guess, 94 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,730 you know, she'd it was very frugal, so she'd maybe melt some 95 00:05:49,730 --> 00:05:54,080 really mild cheddar in a shallow oven dish with milk. And then 96 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,140 you just soak ans scoop bread around in this sloppy, stringy 97 00:05:57,140 --> 00:05:59,660 mess. It's called Pobs. I mean, anyone from the North will 98 00:05:59,660 --> 00:06:01,970 probably know what Pobs is. And there's a sweet version as well. 99 00:06:01,970 --> 00:06:05,300 But ours was always the cheesy milky version...or baked potato 100 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:09,620 with, with corned beef, you know, and loads of butter. Just 101 00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:11,450 I mean, my Nana was obsessed with butter, I think she sort of 102 00:06:11,450 --> 00:06:14,270 spent the rest of her life making up for wartime rationing 103 00:06:14,270 --> 00:06:18,200 by just...she would stockpile it. And that sort of rubbed off 104 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,990 on me to be honest, I'm, I'm also quite obsessed with butter. 105 00:06:21,110 --> 00:06:24,470 But in both cases, both grandmas, I never ever saw a 106 00:06:24,470 --> 00:06:28,100 recipe. And so I don't cook from recipes, either. So many of the 107 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:30,770 dishes that my nonna especially would make. I mean, my, my 108 00:06:30,770 --> 00:06:34,550 English grandma wouldn't dream of, of picking weeds from the 109 00:06:34,550 --> 00:06:38,210 side of the road. But my Italian grandma... so much of the 110 00:06:38,210 --> 00:06:40,640 cooking that she did, so many of the ingredients that she used 111 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,700 were, if not grown herself than just grown wild, so there'd be 112 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:49,010 [...], which is...it's also called sclopit, because of the 113 00:06:49,010 --> 00:06:51,230 noise that that...it's Bladder Campion. And they have these 114 00:06:51,230 --> 00:06:54,920 little bell flowers. And if you put it on your hand, and then 115 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,020 you whack it down with your other hand, it makes it kind of 116 00:06:57,020 --> 00:07:00,350 a popping noise. So that's why it's called Sclopit in in 117 00:07:00,350 --> 00:07:03,410 Friulano, but these these are wild grasses and nettles and, 118 00:07:03,650 --> 00:07:06,110 and things like that, that nonna would always use and that's 119 00:07:06,110 --> 00:07:10,160 really hard to kind of work into a recipe because it relies 120 00:07:10,340 --> 00:07:12,260 on...you can't just say you know, pop down to the shop and 121 00:07:12,260 --> 00:07:15,140 buy X, Y and Z... it's sort of...wait for them to be in 122 00:07:15,140 --> 00:07:19,310 season or find your little foraging spot, go and gather and 123 00:07:19,310 --> 00:07:22,010 you can't really measure or predict those sorts of things, I 124 00:07:22,010 --> 00:07:22,520 think 125 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,800 Lucy Dearlove: And that's obviously something that's very 126 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,750 present in your book Dandelions, like we open with a scene of 127 00:07:29,750 --> 00:07:32,360 dandelions being picked by the side of the road as you're 128 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,210 talking about... what was the significance of kind of that 129 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,450 plant that made you want to include it throughout the book 130 00:07:38,450 --> 00:07:39,950 and kind of centre it around that? 131 00:07:40,050 --> 00:07:42,180 Thea Lenarduzzi: I think I couldn't have done it any other 132 00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:45,240 way really, I think...I mean, food in general is such an 133 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,060 integral part of of the fabric of a family's life, even if it's 134 00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:51,030 not a foodie family in inverted commas, you know, even if 135 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,960 it's...even if you're having chips and, and, and beans or 136 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,110 whatever, that's still a part of the fabric of your life and 137 00:07:58,140 --> 00:08:02,280 those dishes are on that table for multiple reasons. But 138 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,420 certainly in my family's life, dandelions or whatever wilted 139 00:08:06,420 --> 00:08:09,270 wild grass you want to think about, was involved. And 140 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:13,590 dandelions...it's just the kind of the eternal presence of it. 141 00:08:13,590 --> 00:08:18,030 It's, it's a dish that features almost every dinner time because 142 00:08:18,030 --> 00:08:21,810 they're so abundant, and we all love them. And they sort of say 143 00:08:21,810 --> 00:08:25,200 something about our family and specifically about my Nonna. So 144 00:08:25,530 --> 00:08:28,950 I think when I started writing Dandelions, I knew that I wanted 145 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:31,650 - and this, this might sound kind of pretentious - but I 146 00:08:31,650 --> 00:08:34,950 wanted to capture something of the essence of Nonna and the 147 00:08:34,950 --> 00:08:37,440 dish of dandelions that accompanies every dinner we 148 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,260 have, it's almost the most obvious way of doing that, 149 00:08:40,260 --> 00:08:43,680 because the mere thing of it, it kind of opens out in a number of 150 00:08:43,680 --> 00:08:47,310 directions at once. It's a, it's a really rich dish, not just 151 00:08:47,550 --> 00:08:51,270 nutritionally but in terms of what it says about her and about 152 00:08:51,270 --> 00:08:53,910 us. So first is the story about how she used to collect it when 153 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:58,980 she was living in Manchester, in the 1950s and 60s, she just 154 00:08:58,980 --> 00:09:02,880 emigrated there for the second time. And you know, what it says 155 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,910 about her character and the life she was living at that time, a 156 00:09:05,910 --> 00:09:08,520 life on the margins of society, I guess, as an Italian 157 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,210 immigrant, then there's what it tells us about where she came 158 00:09:12,210 --> 00:09:15,690 from, about the culture that she had grown up, in the culture 159 00:09:15,690 --> 00:09:19,950 that knew how to how to use these ingredients how to how to 160 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:23,220 forage for, for one thing or another that was that tended to 161 00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:27,480 be shunned by the more - again in inverted commas - developed 162 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,420 society that she had moved into in England. So it kind of...the 163 00:09:30,750 --> 00:09:34,800 dish emphasises her foreignness and her desire to, to carry on 164 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,080 in the customs that she grew up with, you know, not in some 165 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,750 grand sense, more subconscious than that, you know, her 166 00:09:39,750 --> 00:09:42,510 stomach, her stomach needed these greens. It was the most 167 00:09:42,510 --> 00:09:45,390 natural thing in the world to her, she sees them a great free 168 00:09:45,390 --> 00:09:48,000 food...I'll pick it I'll take it and for dinner, you know, she 169 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,440 maintains to this day that dandelions are a cure for all 170 00:09:52,470 --> 00:09:58,110 all ills. And then for me as a writer, dandelions sort of sort 171 00:09:58,110 --> 00:10:01,080 of offers itself up as a ready made motif, you know, like a 172 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,460 ready meal if you, if you'd like, but it's just like, laden 173 00:10:05,460 --> 00:10:08,310 with with like significance you know? So I started thinking 174 00:10:08,310 --> 00:10:11,730 about dandelions more broadly. What are they? What's their life 175 00:10:11,730 --> 00:10:16,110 cycle? How do they work? How do they pollinate? How do they, you 176 00:10:16,110 --> 00:10:18,540 know, what, what's their lifecycle? I'd never thought 177 00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:20,970 about it and you know, what do they mean? And what have they 178 00:10:20,970 --> 00:10:23,490 meant in different times in different places to different 179 00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:26,430 people? And, you know, this is a dish that can either bring us 180 00:10:26,430 --> 00:10:28,950 together as it does in my family, but it also sets us 181 00:10:28,950 --> 00:10:32,580 apart it shows up the divisions between people and cultures on 182 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:35,280 the one hand, who who look at dandelions and recognize that 183 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,660 they're a deeply nutritious free food. So not nasty, it's... to 184 00:10:39,660 --> 00:10:42,630 gather them and take them home for the family. And the people 185 00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:45,540 on the other side who who look at her like she's she's a 186 00:10:45,540 --> 00:10:48,720 nutter. You know, she, what's she doing ferreting around in, 187 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:50,940 in the mud? Has she lost something? Has she lost her 188 00:10:50,940 --> 00:10:53,220 mind? You know, I doubt any of the people in Manchester would 189 00:10:53,220 --> 00:10:56,520 have looked at her and thought, Oh, right, yeah, she's, she's 190 00:10:57,330 --> 00:11:00,660 gathering....gathering dandelions. And yeah, I mean, I 191 00:11:00,660 --> 00:11:02,970 was sort of reminded of it a few years ago, I was walking on 192 00:11:02,970 --> 00:11:05,880 Hackney Marshes with a friend and, and we were just walking 193 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,940 around, and people were playing fetch with their dogs and all 194 00:11:08,940 --> 00:11:11,730 the usual stuff. And then we saw...it was just a group of, of 195 00:11:11,730 --> 00:11:14,280 Indian women. And they were they had plastic bags, and they were 196 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,380 stooping and gathering, stooping and gathering and I was like, 197 00:11:16,410 --> 00:11:18,000 Oh, I wonder what they're gathering. I wonder if it's 198 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,810 dandelions. So we went over and we said, you know, what are you, 199 00:11:21,810 --> 00:11:24,390 what are you gathering? And they said, Oh, it's mustard seed. You 200 00:11:24,390 --> 00:11:26,490 know, it's delicious. Take it...sorry mustard grass, it's 201 00:11:26,490 --> 00:11:29,400 delicious. Take it. And they gave us like a big bunch each 202 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,340 and said, you know, go home, wilt it down with a knob of 203 00:11:32,340 --> 00:11:35,400 butter and some salt. And so we did. And it was delicious. And 204 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,040 it was just that one moment, you know, the gathering, the 205 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,880 knowledge, the exchange, and it's just bursting with story. 206 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,060 So yeah, that's it. That's why dandelions, that's what 207 00:11:45,060 --> 00:11:45,510 happened. 208 00:11:45,630 --> 00:11:48,570 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, it is so interesting, because they're so 209 00:11:48,570 --> 00:11:51,510 abundant here. But we just don't have that kind of history or 210 00:11:51,510 --> 00:11:53,850 connection to them. Like, I genuinely didn't know you could 211 00:11:53,850 --> 00:11:57,510 eat them pretty much until I read the book, I was like, Huh, 212 00:11:57,540 --> 00:12:00,840 okay. Makes a lot of sense. Because they were bitter, you 213 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,590 know. They're a bitter weed. Yeah. But it just never occurred 214 00:12:04,590 --> 00:12:08,430 to me. And yeah, but it seems it seems so strange. I think 215 00:12:08,460 --> 00:12:11,730 especially given the kind of current context of like, how, I 216 00:12:11,730 --> 00:12:15,390 guess like aspirational, gathering food in that way is in 217 00:12:15,390 --> 00:12:19,950 some ways, that there's just the, you know, that the response 218 00:12:20,010 --> 00:12:24,840 to when when Dirce was gathering them, like it was so different. 219 00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:27,180 I don't know, I don't quite know how to articulate it, this 220 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,980 Thea Lenarduzzi: No, totally, I mean, foraging became this 221 00:12:27,180 --> 00:12:27,630 progression. 222 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:33,990 incredibly kind of chichi, middle class thing to do in 223 00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:37,080 recent years, which, obviously, my nonna and my family are just 224 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,160 completely confused by. But it's yeah, it's like it's gone full 225 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,910 circle in the same way that you know, peasant food always has 226 00:12:44,940 --> 00:12:48,720 done...it sort of started in the most humble origins. And then, 227 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,290 you know, the fact that polenta is served in the finest 228 00:12:52,290 --> 00:12:56,370 restaurants now...again, my family's like, what? Really? 229 00:12:56,370 --> 00:12:59,460 Wow, okay. I mean, I love polenta. But you would never 230 00:12:59,490 --> 00:13:02,070 have seen it in a fancy restaurant until relatively 231 00:13:02,070 --> 00:13:05,070 recently. And that's right. It's a quite it's quite strange turn 232 00:13:05,070 --> 00:13:06,030 of events, I suppose. 233 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,910 Lucy Dearlove: I think sometimes there's a kind of portrayal as 234 00:13:08,910 --> 00:13:12,180 migration as this very, like one way, permanent process, like 235 00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:16,470 it's very linear. And in in Dandelions, there's this kind of 236 00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:20,280 like back and forth between England and in Italy. I guess 237 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,920 I'm just interested to know your thoughts around like that 238 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,250 portrayal of migration, and then how you were writing about your 239 00:13:26,250 --> 00:13:28,440 own family? I mean, obviously, you could only write about it in 240 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,600 the way that it happens. And that and that is the way that it 241 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,500 was. But would you agree with that? Do you think that is how 242 00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:37,380 migration tends to be portrayed? Or is it a bit more complicated 243 00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:38,010 than that? 244 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,460 Thea Lenarduzzi: You mean, that it's pNortrayed in terms of 245 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,330 clinging, you know, clinging to its foods, and its cultures, 246 00:13:44,330 --> 00:13:45,590 rather than assimilating? 247 00:13:45,950 --> 00:13:49,490 Lucy Dearlove: No, more so that when we talk about migration, 248 00:13:49,490 --> 00:13:53,300 it's that people move from one country to another. And, you 249 00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:56,810 know, obviously, they choose to kind of...it's natural that they 250 00:13:56,810 --> 00:14:00,800 would keep customs and cultures from their country of origin. 251 00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:04,640 But there's, I feel like there's less conversation about people 252 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,730 then going back to their home country. I mean, this could be I 253 00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:09,830 could be barking up completely the wrong tree here. But it was 254 00:14:09,830 --> 00:14:12,560 something that really struck me during the book that there is 255 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,920 this like, kind of movement throughout the book that isn't 256 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,700 just like, we're going to a new country. And that's, like, 257 00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:21,740 that's our new life, if that makes sense. 258 00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:23,700 Thea Lenarduzzi: Well, I think the thing was, I think the thing 259 00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:28,560 with how migration worked in my family and continues to work in 260 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,110 my family is that everything is both... it's not one or the 261 00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:35,940 other. It's both and everything in between. So so my Nonna...For 262 00:14:35,940 --> 00:14:41,250 example, she if you ask my Nonna as my....so my husband once 263 00:14:41,250 --> 00:14:44,310 asked her...we'd...me and my husband had been in Tuscany and 264 00:14:44,490 --> 00:14:47,190 then...we'd been there for like five or six weeks. Then we went 265 00:14:47,220 --> 00:14:50,070 up to my Nonna from there. My Nonna's in the Friuli, which is 266 00:14:50,070 --> 00:14:53,760 in north east, very close to the Slovenian border. And so we were 267 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,850 both kind of pumped full of the joys of Tuscany like oh my gosh, 268 00:14:56,850 --> 00:14:58,860 isn't it beautiful? And you go to the Friuli, the Friuli is 269 00:14:58,860 --> 00:15:01,440 beautiful, but it's a very different landscape, it's flat. 270 00:15:02,010 --> 00:15:06,510 And it's not, you know, it's not a must on the on the tourist 271 00:15:06,510 --> 00:15:09,390 circuit, I think it should be, but not very many people visit 272 00:15:09,390 --> 00:15:13,620 there who aren't from there or live near it. And so yeah, we 273 00:15:13,620 --> 00:15:16,740 were pumped full of Tuscany. And my husband just talking to my 274 00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:20,040 Nonna said, so Dirce, if you could live anywhere in Italy, 275 00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:23,490 where would you live? And Nonna, without missing a beat, just 276 00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:27,690 goes Manchester. So as though Manchester is like a little 277 00:15:27,690 --> 00:15:30,900 enclave of Italy, or a continuation of Italy. And I 278 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:34,530 think in a way it was for her because when she, when she lived 279 00:15:34,530 --> 00:15:37,650 there, she was in the Italian community mostly. But also, I 280 00:15:37,650 --> 00:15:40,650 think it says something about how a lot of the times 281 00:15:40,650 --> 00:15:44,970 migration, it collapses, the boundaries, it collapses the 282 00:15:44,970 --> 00:15:48,180 borders, so that you don't really necessarily distinguish 283 00:15:48,180 --> 00:15:51,300 with where you came and where you now are, where you came from 284 00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:54,540 and where you not now are or vice versa. It's not about going 285 00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:57,540 this way, or that way. It's about sort of existing across 286 00:15:57,540 --> 00:16:02,220 the place, across the places. And I think my, in my nonna's 287 00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:06,360 mind, and for me as well, you sort of your life sort of is 288 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,570 split, but it's not that you stop living one, when you leave 289 00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:13,080 that country, I've not stopped living in Italy, just because I 290 00:16:13,290 --> 00:16:17,100 don't live there. If that makes any sense. I'm still I'm still 291 00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:19,680 living a life that's sort of ticking over over there. And 292 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,220 then when I go back to Italy, as I will be in a few weeks time, 293 00:16:23,250 --> 00:16:26,430 I'll just pick up where I left off with that. Yeah, you know, 294 00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:29,850 certain stuff will feel slightly out of place. And I'll, you 295 00:16:29,850 --> 00:16:32,130 know, maybe take me a while to sort of switch back into 296 00:16:32,130 --> 00:16:38,190 certain, certain rhythms or modes. But yeah, I think I think 297 00:16:38,190 --> 00:16:40,350 that's, I think that might be what you're kind of putting your 298 00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:43,050 finger on when you when you say about it's not backwards and 299 00:16:43,050 --> 00:16:46,200 forwards. It's not one or the other. You're both? 300 00:16:46,450 --> 00:16:50,320 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Something else that 301 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,920 is really apparent in the book is the kind of blurring of like 302 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,550 fact and a fiction that we create around our own lives. And 303 00:16:57,550 --> 00:17:00,850 you're very transparent about that. I think, maybe sometimes, 304 00:17:00,850 --> 00:17:03,850 like when you're talking about your own family history, there 305 00:17:03,850 --> 00:17:07,930 is a temptation to present it as fact. But I think the 306 00:17:07,930 --> 00:17:10,750 acknowledgement that you give kind of throughout the book of 307 00:17:10,750 --> 00:17:14,350 like, I know that some of this is embellished or like not true, 308 00:17:14,350 --> 00:17:18,220 or it's different to what she told me last time or like it was 309 00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:20,410 that...Did you know that was always going to be how you were 310 00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:21,340 writing it? 311 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:23,430 Thea Lenarduzzi: It had to be you know, it all came very 312 00:17:23,430 --> 00:17:26,340 naturally, organically I guess just because you know, I'm very 313 00:17:26,340 --> 00:17:28,980 much my nonna's granddaughter, I've grown up on her stories and 314 00:17:28,980 --> 00:17:31,350 they chop and change from telling to telling, and you 315 00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:34,740 know, so I guess you know, like to keep that food theme going, 316 00:17:34,740 --> 00:17:36,870 you always have to have a hefty pinch of salt at hand when 317 00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:39,780 you're listening to anything that comes out of Nonna's mouth, 318 00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:42,810 you know, I guess I've always appreciated as a result how 319 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,430 mercurial memory can be. How you know, in one telling, this is my 320 00:17:47,460 --> 00:17:50,700 cousin and then the next it's, it's my brother or you know, 321 00:17:50,730 --> 00:17:54,150 just chops and changes all the time. And, you know, memories 322 00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:57,300 do... they shift and they shift depending on on mood and, and 323 00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:01,020 context in any number of elements. But I think even when 324 00:18:01,020 --> 00:18:05,340 they're not strictly true, you know, they're not an exact 325 00:18:05,340 --> 00:18:08,130 reflection of what happened if there could ever be such a 326 00:18:08,130 --> 00:18:11,430 thing, you know, that they may be truer as a result, you know, 327 00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:14,580 they're true in a deeper sense of the word. So like, reality 328 00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:17,430 and truth aren't the same thing. It's a bit like, you know, 329 00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:21,150 Werner Herzog has this idea about ecstatic truth he calls it 330 00:18:21,150 --> 00:18:25,620 and it's, it's sort of when reality isn't true enough. He 331 00:18:25,620 --> 00:18:30,990 said something like...facts, create norms. And truth creates 332 00:18:30,990 --> 00:18:33,750 light or truth creates illumination. And it's that 333 00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:37,200 sometimes you need to draw on the toolkit of fiction, to 334 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,690 create that illumination. We all do this all the time. You know, 335 00:18:39,690 --> 00:18:41,730 that's how that's what happens when we remember things when we 336 00:18:41,730 --> 00:18:46,140 tell ourselves, what happened. And when we tell that to other 337 00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:48,360 people as well, is that like, there's this, he said, there's 338 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:51,540 like a deeper strata of truth. And it can only be reached 339 00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:55,650 through fabrication, and imagination and stylization. And 340 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,460 so then you accept that...if you accept that to be true, which I 341 00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:04,920 do. The next question then has to be why, like, why is the 342 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,610 story being told this way? What purpose does it serve the teller 343 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,640 or the listener? Because after all, memory, like memory is 344 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,240 story, memory is a fiction in the oldest order. That's how we 345 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,180 understand our past our present, and we prepare for the future. 346 00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:21,720 And so when you're talking about family stories, or like when 347 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,850 you're talking about in a family, in a broader sense, 348 00:19:23,850 --> 00:19:26,160 wondering about a nation's stories, because a nation is 349 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,490 basically a dysfunctional family, you know, it's not just 350 00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:32,040 about the individual, we all have a deeply vested interest, I 351 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,040 think in in these matters in asking those questions and 352 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:40,890 asking, you know, what kind of truth is this? You know, is it 353 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,610 reality or is it something else, you know, how do those two 354 00:19:44,610 --> 00:19:48,600 things line up or not as the case may be? And what does it 355 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:49,200 tell us? 356 00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:51,510 Lucy Dearlove: I think maybe my favourite example of that in the 357 00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:55,230 book is when you talk about learning to make gnocchi with 358 00:19:55,230 --> 00:20:00,540 your sister, and then you're nonna like later can pletely 359 00:20:00,570 --> 00:20:03,900 denies the story that she told you about how she learnt it. And 360 00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:07,350 yeah, completely different story about that she'd learned it in a 361 00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:10,260 restaurant she hadn't learnt it from from her mother was it at 362 00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:10,740 all? Yeah, 363 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:12,540 Thea Lenarduzzi: exactly. She said she didn't learn it from 364 00:20:12,540 --> 00:20:15,120 her mother. Because I mean, the relationship between Nonna and 365 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:20,850 her mother Novella was difficult to put it mildly. And yeah, we, 366 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,730 we know, what we think we know is that she learned it from her 367 00:20:23,730 --> 00:20:26,370 Nonna Novella. And again, it would have been in a not in a 368 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,460 reading a recipe sort of way it would have been observing and 369 00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:32,910 observing. And then when we when we asked her about it when we 370 00:20:32,910 --> 00:20:35,190 just mentioned it in passing, like, oh, because of course you 371 00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:38,490 learned to do it this way because of your mom, she, as you 372 00:20:38,490 --> 00:20:40,560 said, completely blocked it. She was like absolutely not No, I 373 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,810 learned it, I learned it in a restaurant that I worked in when 374 00:20:42,810 --> 00:20:46,500 I first moved back to Italy in the 70s. And it was actually 375 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:52,140 because my Nonna uses her index finger to put the grooves in the 376 00:20:52,140 --> 00:20:55,200 gnocchi the little kind of pools where, where the sauce will, 377 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,530 will go in and sit once you've cooked them, so they each one 378 00:20:58,530 --> 00:21:01,680 has the imprint of her index finger in it, which I think is 379 00:21:01,710 --> 00:21:05,220 just lovely. But I said, well, that's kind of you know, 380 00:21:05,220 --> 00:21:07,860 sometimes it can get a bit messy because you can catch it with 381 00:21:07,860 --> 00:21:11,070 your nail. And then you can tear the pasta, which you don't want 382 00:21:11,070 --> 00:21:13,890 to do if you just press a bit too hard. So how come you don't 383 00:21:13,890 --> 00:21:17,370 use your knuckle like, like your mum did? And her face, you know, 384 00:21:17,370 --> 00:21:20,340 sort of set against me, you know, she was like, Oh, my, you 385 00:21:20,340 --> 00:21:25,200 know, my Nan, my, my, my mum didn't do that. She didn't do 386 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,390 that. She didn't teach me and it was just a weird moment. I was 387 00:21:27,390 --> 00:21:30,420 like, okay, that's how you want to tell this story today. So 388 00:21:30,420 --> 00:21:33,990 I'll respect that. But I've made a little note in my notebook. 389 00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:37,980 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, yeah. And that is really hard to navigate 390 00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:41,610 with someone that you love. And you know very well and and 391 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,500 because also like, yeah, like you're saying, like, it 392 00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:46,560 doesn't...just because it's not the truth that you heard 393 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,540 earlier, doesn't mean it's not real. 394 00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:50,100 Thea Lenarduzzi: Yeah, exactly. Well, doesn't mean that it's not 395 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:53,010 full of truth and the truth of that of that particular instance 396 00:21:53,010 --> 00:21:55,980 is that really conveys the truth of the difficulty of the 397 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:58,560 relationship between Dirce and her mother Novella. 398 00:21:58,770 --> 00:22:02,370 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, yeah, totally. I think something else 399 00:22:02,370 --> 00:22:05,430 that I really wanted to ask you about was what you think about 400 00:22:05,430 --> 00:22:07,650 the kind of...and you write about this a little bit in the 401 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,160 book...the idea of the the Nonna as like this, you talk about it 402 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,880 as a byword for timeless purity, which I thought encapsulated so 403 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,820 much about like, even in this country where I feel like the 404 00:22:17,820 --> 00:22:21,270 approach to Italian food is sometimes like, basic at best. 405 00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:25,020 There is this kind of sense of like, you know, stuff like Pasta 406 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:28,050 Grannies and things like that. Like there's this real like, 407 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,620 Okay, this is where we learn like real true cooking from... 408 00:22:32,370 --> 00:22:35,100 How do you feel about that perception of a Nonna? 409 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,485 Thea Lenarduzzi: Well, I mean, that so much of that is about 410 00:22:37,543 --> 00:22:41,126 almost like the marketization of women, of Nonne. You know, if 411 00:22:41,184 --> 00:22:44,767 you buy if you pick up a packet of biscuits, and it says, this 412 00:22:44,825 --> 00:22:48,524 is Nonna'ss recipe, you're like, Ah, we're in safe hands, great. 413 00:22:48,582 --> 00:22:51,876 You know, there's nothing tainted here. It's all pure and 414 00:22:51,934 --> 00:22:55,229 wholesome. That's, that's marketing. But it's all kind of 415 00:22:55,286 --> 00:22:58,985 preying on this, this archetype. You know, it's a character of a 416 00:22:59,043 --> 00:23:02,569 Nonna. You can almost see her almost as like a, like a Dolmii 417 00:23:02,627 --> 00:23:06,152 puppet, you know, Dolmio, which is, I think, made in Holland. 418 00:23:06,210 --> 00:23:09,562 But no, so she's like this benevolent old woman who exists 419 00:23:09,620 --> 00:23:12,510 to feed the family, to selflessly provide and then 420 00:23:12,568 --> 00:23:16,035 presumably, sit there silently dishing it out, while the men 421 00:23:16,093 --> 00:23:19,503 talk about important things, you know, in my experience, an 422 00:23:19,561 --> 00:23:23,087 aspect of that is true, yes, it takes hours for Nonna to make 423 00:23:23,145 --> 00:23:26,612 her delicious food, you know, for one meal, which will often 424 00:23:26,670 --> 00:23:30,311 not be commented on by anyone, because it's always... it's just 425 00:23:30,369 --> 00:23:33,779 always there. We take it for granted to a great degree, and 426 00:23:33,837 --> 00:23:37,478 also her husband, my Nonno, my granddad, he did make very clear 427 00:23:37,536 --> 00:23:41,235 his discontent if lunch was not on the table at noon on the dot. 428 00:23:41,293 --> 00:23:44,761 But I suppose what I wanted to do was to pick that archetype 429 00:23:44,818 --> 00:23:48,344 apart, you know, to, to also give her back the power that she 430 00:23:48,402 --> 00:23:51,696 has in that, you know, when she makes her tiramisu or her 431 00:23:51,754 --> 00:23:55,338 gnocchi, it's, it's a triumph. She isn't passive. She's alive, 432 00:23:55,395 --> 00:23:58,805 you know, she's choosing to impress us. She's reminding us, 433 00:23:58,863 --> 00:24:02,504 she's choosing to remind us of her indispensability. And that's 434 00:24:02,562 --> 00:24:06,030 also why she doesn't ever give us the full recipe, you know, 435 00:24:06,088 --> 00:24:09,729 she always leaves something out, so no one can replace her. And 436 00:24:09,787 --> 00:24:13,312 you know, the cooking, it's all part of her scene setting and 437 00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:16,896 the table is her space, even if she's silent, which generally 438 00:24:16,954 --> 00:24:20,133 she isn't. She's totally in charge. You know, she's the 439 00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:23,369 director of the film of our family. And these days, she 440 00:24:23,427 --> 00:24:26,779 tends to leave quite soon after we've all eaten, sometimes 441 00:24:26,837 --> 00:24:30,305 before we finish because she gets tired. She hardly eats any 442 00:24:30,363 --> 00:24:33,888 more herself, you know, she's nearly 97, she's gonna be 97 In 443 00:24:33,946 --> 00:24:37,298 a few weeks time and, and when when she gets up to go, the 444 00:24:37,356 --> 00:24:40,708 whole thing sags. The centre drops out, we all feel weird, 445 00:24:40,766 --> 00:24:44,350 but I think it's that thing of elderly women, women generally, 446 00:24:44,407 --> 00:24:48,049 food, migrants, weeds. These are all things that have generally 447 00:24:48,106 --> 00:24:51,170 been overlooked or not considered worthy of scrutiny. 448 00:24:51,227 --> 00:24:54,580 You know, how many books are there about great men who did 449 00:24:54,637 --> 00:24:58,221 great things and how many are there about a grandmother who no 450 00:24:58,279 --> 00:25:01,515 one's ever heard of...is that because there's nothing of 451 00:25:01,573 --> 00:25:05,099 interest in that woman's life, you know about her experiences 452 00:25:05,157 --> 00:25:08,162 and her thoughts and her feelings? I don't, I mean I 453 00:25:08,220 --> 00:25:11,225 don't think so. I don't think...I don't think anyone 454 00:25:11,283 --> 00:25:14,809 could argue that really. So, yeah, I just I guess I wanted to 455 00:25:14,866 --> 00:25:18,103 give her back her dimensions. And part of that was about 456 00:25:18,161 --> 00:25:21,571 considering all of her stories, considering her food in the 457 00:25:21,629 --> 00:25:24,981 round, you know, not just to talk about how, how delicious 458 00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:28,333 these dishes are, which they definitely are, but to think 459 00:25:28,391 --> 00:25:32,090 about why she cooks, the things she does, why she cooks them how 460 00:25:32,148 --> 00:25:35,384 she does, what they tell us about her, and the life that 461 00:25:35,442 --> 00:25:39,083 she's lived and the people and the places that she's known, why 462 00:25:39,141 --> 00:25:42,494 they matter, why all of her stories matter, what they link 463 00:25:42,551 --> 00:25:45,904 to, why do we need to keep telling them? Why do we need to 464 00:25:45,961 --> 00:25:47,060 carry them with us? 465 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,360 Lucy Dearlove: I feel like I've really noticed more recently, 466 00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:53,390 being interested in kind of like domesticity and like the space 467 00:25:53,390 --> 00:25:57,050 of the kitchen, within people's homes over history, how little 468 00:25:57,050 --> 00:26:00,530 has actually been written about that over time, and just 469 00:26:00,620 --> 00:26:04,040 that...you're so right like that overlooking of women's space, 470 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,460 migrants' space like that kind of Yeah, it's yeah, it's so 471 00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:10,520 true. And it's almost like the...people talk about everyday 472 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,390 life as like, like...mundane is often a word that comes up. But 473 00:26:14,390 --> 00:26:17,720 like, there's actually...even the sort of things that happen 474 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,840 in the book, like people going to work, people moving house, 475 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,200 like people...there's so much significance in all of it. 476 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,610 Thea Lenarduzzi: Yeah, there's so much living in the living, 477 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,340 that we don't, that we don't that we don't consider. And I 478 00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:32,310 think when I think about my nonna's kitchen in Italy, I 479 00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:34,800 think it's quite interesting thinking about domestic spaces 480 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,040 because she has her little tiny, tiny little galley kitchen, 481 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,760 which has not changed at all since she had... since they 482 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,530 built that house in the 19, late 1960s and finished in 1971. It's 483 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,070 exactly the same...the oranges, the browns, the sunflowers, but 484 00:26:50,070 --> 00:26:52,770 she's got that little galley kitchen and then there's a kind 485 00:26:52,770 --> 00:26:57,750 of a half wall and a big faux satin orange curtain covered in 486 00:26:57,750 --> 00:27:00,990 really busy flowers. And then you're into the living room 487 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:06,150 where there's a sofa, a TV, the cupboard with so much so much 488 00:27:06,150 --> 00:27:09,630 chaos is barely contained. And then you've got a stove with 489 00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:12,870 four or five rings on it a wood burning stove that she's feeding 490 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:16,410 all day you work through the summer, yeah. All through the 491 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:19,740 day, all through the seasons, whether it's summer or anything, 492 00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:22,320 it's always on. And I think that's what she's done. 493 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,650 Actually. She's She broke up that space. She's not confined 494 00:27:25,650 --> 00:27:27,960 in the kitchen while everyone else is in the living space. 495 00:27:28,110 --> 00:27:31,290 She's in and out, the curtain is never ever closed. It's always 496 00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:34,680 half open at least Yeah, she's collapsed that boundary in the 497 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,990 same way as she collapsed the boundary between Italy and 498 00:27:36,990 --> 00:27:40,710 England. She moves freely. And you know, we may sit still but 499 00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:43,800 she is always backwards and forwards, spooning something out 500 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,430 here, stirring something over there, clattering around. You 501 00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:50,580 can't confine her. She won't be, she won't be hidden away in a 502 00:27:50,580 --> 00:27:53,400 domestic space. Thank you very much. She's, she's in front of 503 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,370 the curtain. She's on stage all the time, where she belongs, 504 00:27:56,370 --> 00:27:58,470 quite frankly. And she knows that. 505 00:28:08,610 --> 00:28:11,820 Lucy Dearlove: So just one final thing to end and if you know, 506 00:28:11,850 --> 00:28:14,910 fair enough, if you want to not give it away, but I was 507 00:28:14,910 --> 00:28:18,540 wondering if you would share how you would prepare and cook 508 00:28:18,540 --> 00:28:19,500 dandelions. 509 00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:22,270 Thea Lenarduzzi: I mean, it's it's very boring. It's very, 510 00:28:22,270 --> 00:28:26,050 very simple. But I think that's that's the key to some of the 511 00:28:26,050 --> 00:28:29,380 best food....you just absolutely gather them wherever you gather 512 00:28:29,380 --> 00:28:32,200 them depending on where you gather and gather them wash them 513 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,910 particularly well. And you boil them or steam them you could 514 00:28:36,910 --> 00:28:40,930 steam them but yeah, boil them or steam them for 15,20 minutes 515 00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:44,830 in salty water, drain them but not too much. You don't want 516 00:28:44,830 --> 00:28:47,560 them to be dry. You want to keep a lot of that moisture. Then put 517 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,130 them back into the pan, so keep the pan warm with a little oil, 518 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,280 little olive oil, which my nonna always likes to remind me when 519 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,100 she was in England used to have to buy it in the pharmacy. And 520 00:28:57,100 --> 00:29:00,760 it was probably horrible stuff. But serve it with Yeah, with 521 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,290 that oil warm and then squeeze a bit of lemon on the end of salt. 522 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,990 I guess you could add a knob of butter if you were my English 523 00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:11,590 Nana, not that she would have eaten dandelions. But there you 524 00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:13,810 go. That's really that's really it. You can also actually can 525 00:29:13,810 --> 00:29:16,000 also parboil the roots, because you know, when you pull up a 526 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,660 dandelion, if you pull the whole thing out, you pull it sometimes 527 00:29:19,660 --> 00:29:23,080 it's half a metre long, the white roots that comes up and 528 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,580 it's really gnarled so you can parboil the roots, chop them up 529 00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:30,580 and preserve them in vinegar. And they're they're really rich 530 00:29:30,580 --> 00:29:33,640 source of of all sorts of goodnesses 531 00:29:34,050 --> 00:29:35,790 Lucy Dearlove: what and what's the texture of them? 532 00:29:36,510 --> 00:29:38,100 Thea Lenarduzzi: Depending on how much you boil them and you 533 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:40,620 don't want to boil them too much they've got a nice bite to them. 534 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,920 Yeah, they've got a little bit of a crunch a bit like You know 535 00:29:43,950 --> 00:29:47,820 Giardinera, which is yeah pickled carrots and celery and 536 00:29:47,820 --> 00:29:51,270 bits of cauliflower that similar sort of a bit al dente you want 537 00:29:51,270 --> 00:29:53,760 them to be and then yeah, preserve them in vinegar and and 538 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,260 then you just have them you know, as a side with cheese, or 539 00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:02,640 I mean anything, anything goes with cheese, but Yeah, that's it 540 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,890 just have them have them in a jar on your table when you're 541 00:30:04,890 --> 00:30:10,080 having anything really. You could start the day with then 542 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,160 that'd be a bit weird, but 543 00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:14,450 Lucy Dearlove: I'm not sure I have the stomach for pickles. 544 00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:18,170 First thing. We'll probably do I know maybe I need to up my game. 545 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,290 Well, I'm definitely going to cook these dandelions. Maybe I'm 546 00:30:21,290 --> 00:30:24,140 maybe not going to collect them like on the side of the A2. 547 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,000 Thea Lenarduzzi: No, no, maybe don't do that 548 00:30:26,390 --> 00:30:28,580 Lucy Dearlove: Maybe they'd be like in a nice park somewhere. 549 00:30:28,610 --> 00:30:30,770 Thea Lenarduzzi: Yeah, exactly. Send me a picture I'd like to 550 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:31,610 I'd love to see them 551 00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:41,690 Lucy Dearlove: Thanks so much to Thea Lenarduzzi For this really 552 00:30:41,690 --> 00:30:44,840 generous interview that I actually found really moving 553 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,220 both to record and to listen back to. There's so much living 554 00:30:49,220 --> 00:30:56,480 in the living. It's true. Let's remember it. Dandelions is out 555 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,840 now published by Fitzcarraldo and available in all good 556 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,170 bookshops. I really urge you to get a copy and read it. It's 557 00:31:03,170 --> 00:31:07,310 just a beautiful book. It's incredibly moving. And it made 558 00:31:07,310 --> 00:31:09,980 me think about kind of the stories that we tell within 559 00:31:09,980 --> 00:31:13,160 families in a completely different way. But it's also 560 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,630 just really funny and lively. And Thea is a fantastic writer. 561 00:31:17,630 --> 00:31:24,620 I love it so much. Get a copy. You can support Lecker on 562 00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:27,530 Patreon for three pounds a month and get access to a bonus 563 00:31:27,530 --> 00:31:31,490 episode every month. As I mentioned, the previous episode, 564 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,140 this month's is going to include some extra bits from each 565 00:31:36,140 --> 00:31:39,560 episode released this month, specifically around recipes and 566 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,270 their role within personal writing. There's going to be 567 00:31:41,270 --> 00:31:45,320 kind of a whole other separate episode around that. And it's 568 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,340 going to be really good. If I do say so myself. Subscribe if 569 00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:53,180 you'd like to hear it. Lecker is entirely listener funded. So 570 00:31:53,180 --> 00:31:56,090 patrons subscriptions are just really important in me being 571 00:31:56,090 --> 00:32:01,250 able to continue to make the podcast music is by bluedot 572 00:32:01,250 --> 00:32:04,790 sessions. Thanks to Ben McDonald, who is Lecker's 573 00:32:04,790 --> 00:32:07,910 Resident illustrator. You can see his work on the Lecker 574 00:32:07,910 --> 00:32:13,310 Instagram and Twitter at like a podcast. There is one more 575 00:32:13,310 --> 00:32:16,940 episodes come this month around this theme that I've been kind 576 00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:21,230 of tracing through different books and conversations about 577 00:32:21,230 --> 00:32:24,800 how writers approach telling personal stories through food. 578 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,430 Make sure you're subscribed on your podcast platform of choice 579 00:32:28,430 --> 00:32:31,640 and you can listen as soon as they're released. Thanks for 580 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,070 listening. I will be back in your feed very soon.