Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove.
Melissa Thompson: What what's really nice about life...is like
all these things that you go through, they might frustrate
you or they might anger you, and you think, oh that's a bit shit.
But to be able to put that into a...into a book has been, like,
amazing.
Lucy Dearlove: When we're thinking about personal food
writing, what happens at the place where it intersects with
historical writing or political writing? And what about
permission? Who is granted permission to write whatever
they want? Melissa Thompson is a food writer I've admired for
years now. And her book, Motherland, came out last month.
It's a book of recipes for Jamaican food, some that Melissa
grew up eating with her family, some that she's learned from the
community around her in London from people like Maureen Tyne,
who cooks incredible food from her house in Brixton and some
that she's eaten on trips to Jamaica as an adult. Motherland
is also a book about the history of Jamaica, and Melissa weaves
this so elegantly with her own story in a way that it makes it
impossible for us to ignore the violent history of colonialism
and how it has to do with all of us in Britain. As you'll hear us
talk about, Melissa uses the physical walls of the Drax
estate in Dorset, where she grew up, to demonstrate how ingrained
Britain's colonial legacy is in the very fabric of our lives
here, and how it's mostly been buried. I also asked Melissa how
she approaches writing down recipes which are very personal
to her in a format which can be comprehensible and replicable by
anyone who buys her book or reads her writing. Is anything
lost or compromised in this process of translation? I went
round to record with Melissa at her house on one of those
freakishly hot summer heatwave days we had this year, where -
unbelievably, she deserves a medal for this - she cooked me
lunch.
So what you making?
Melissa Thompson: So I'm making...pepper prawns, and just
some. Yeah, some grilled corn. But I might take...I might do
grilled corn and make it into a salad.
Lucy Dearlove: Oh, lovely.
Melissa Thompson: Just like with a bit of...
Lucy Dearlove: Charred.
Melissa Thompson: Yeah, like with a bit of red onion.
Lucy Dearlove: Nice
Melissa Thompson: and stuff. I'm just thinking anything. That's
cold, but actually, that's not hot. Yeah, I might do that.
Actually.
Lucy Dearlove: Is this from the book?
Melissa Thompson: The prawns are, yeah, like pepper shrimp is
like a sort of classic. They are quite...do you like heat?
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah I mean, I don't want to like you know, you
know, when you're like...you get really cocky about it?
Melissa Thompson: Yes!
Lucy Dearlove: As a white person I'm always like, yeah, I can
handle it. And then I always...Yeah. Cos I do like
heat but there's a relativity there.
Melissa Thompson: Exactly. Yeah. It's like how hot Exactly. And
that's the hardest thing to quantify.
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. Yeah. Just never know what someone else's
tolerance is gonna be.
Melissa Thompson: Yeah. So I'll do some I'll do some plantain.
Lucy Dearlove: Great. Yeah.
Melissa Thompson: Yeah?
Lucy Dearlove: Love plantain.
Melissa Thompson: So my book is called Motherland. And it is
about ...t's a cookbook, a Jamaican cookbook, that also
details the history of Jamaica to kind of put the food within
the context of Jamaica's history. And it's quite cool.
Because it's a book that I was looking for, for a long time. I
kept on ordering books, wanting it to be this. And it didn't
exist. And that the closest is Provisions by the Rousseau
sisters in America.
Lucy Dearlove: OH, I don't know that. Okay, cool.
Melissa Thompson: I've got it down there. You can have a look
if you want. Yeah, yeah, obviously, the kind of the
African American experience is so much different, although
that's kind of African American, Caribbean, like Jamaican, which
is something else. But they kind of talk about more about their
family. And their kind of grandmother, I mean, it's an
amazing book. And so to be able to write this...the whole thing
has been a bit of a dream, because I think my agent got in
touch with me on the back of my BBC Good Food column. And then I
had met a publisher at a supper club, and she was like, oh, you
know, like, what's exciting in the world of food at the moment?
And I think I said to her, I'll think about it and I was
like...Rangoon Sisters! and she was like, Yeah, we know about
them already. And obviously their book, their book then came
out, and then I was thinking about it, and we kind of like
ended up following each other on Instagram and a while but while
later I emailed her about someone else who I thought it'd
be good to write a book
Lucy Dearlove: But at this point, you weren't putting
yourself forward?
Melissa Thompson: No, no,
Lucy Dearlove: Very classic you I feel like
Melissa Thompson: I just like it wasn't like...really?
Lucy Dearlove: I just feel like you're...my impression that I
have from you it's just that you are so...you are like the most
important supportive person, like you were always lifting
other people up like so. That sounds very characteristic from
what I know about you to meet an editor and be like you should
publish all these other people's book rather than being like I
actually really want to write one.
Melissa Thompson: Well, yeah, yeah, she was like, thanks for
that. Have you thought about doing it? And I was like, I
dunno! Well...actually...
Lucy Dearlove: And had you thought about it?
Melissa Thompson: I had ideas, I had ideas, and but I just didn't
think, I didn't think I was there yet. And it's what...this
is why this whole process has been so interesting, because you
have...in a way, it's almost frustrating, because obviously,
the way that everything happens sequentially, like you get a
column, you know, and then you get approached, you know, and
then you end up getting commissioned. And obviously,
like, I could have written this book, you know, three years ago,
yeah, like before, before I got I got the column and everything
in a way, that's quite frustrating, because, and that's
why you say about, like, lifting other people up. And for me,
it's almost like, it's, I think it's born out of frustration,
because it's like, there are all these amazing people. And a lot
of kind of, like white people, you know, I mean, like, I'll
just be like, straight, a lot of white people get access to
publishing easily. And it's not to say that they're not good,
but obviously, they can. And they can write about whatever
they want in like with whatever food they want, whether it's
related to their own culture or not. Whereas for black people,
and brown people, it's been a lot harder...and people, I
think, from East and Southeast Asia. I think some of the most
exciting, like Southeast Asian restaurants right now are... the
head chef, it's a white person, or it's been founded by white
person. And so now that I'm kind of in the system, it's like, oh,
right, that's how it works. Because I don't I didn't know, I
mean, I've been a journalist for like, what, almost 15 years or
something. But I still don't know how...I didn't know how it
works. I think I said before, like I wrote, it's hard to know,
it's hard to know, like, how to dance. If you don't know, the
moves or something. I can't remember how I phrased it. But
it's like, it's almost like it's quite secretive. And then
actually, you get in it. And it's like, alright, this is how
it works. That's why I'm just like, everyone. So I've been
trying to get quite a few people that I know, and just tried to
get them, whether it's connecting them with my agent,
or just like trying to, like plant the seed, like you can
write a book. And you should be the person writing a book about
this cuisine, because yeah, you know it, and you're good at it.
And so yes, that's where that comes from.
Lucy Dearlove: Even now, I don't know, the industry is maybe
broadening a little bit in terms of what gets commissioned. And
but I think you're still so right about, like, whitw people
can write about anything? Yes. And I think there's also a sense
of like, Oh, we've got one of those already, when it comes to
like specific cuisines, and there's like less of an
understanding of like, what different people's perspectives
can bring?
Melissa Thompson: Yes.
Lucy Dearlove: Like, you know, for example, yeah, your book is
about the history of Jamaica. But it's about the history of
Jamaica, from your perspective.
Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes
Lucy Dearlove: Which is why, you know, you could easily have
another book about the history of Jamaica from someone else's
perspective and that would also be great.
Lucy Dearlove: Exactly! Yeah, West Winds, also, like
Melissa Thompson: Yeah. Well look at Riaz's book!
completely different book. Great to have them both, like they
both...there's space for both of them and space for more of them.
Melissa Thompson: Yeah there is space for both of them, and
there's space to, there's space for plenty more, as well. And
this is the, I don't know, I think things are getting are
getting better. And it's exciting speaking to people who
are, you know, doing amazing things, there are a few
cookbooks that are kind of due to come out, which I'm really
excited for. And I hope it's just the beginning. And I think
yeah, I think what you say about it being a...like, this is just
my perspective, obviously, my perspective growing up in the
UK. And you know, what Jamaican food means to me, how I cook
Jamaican food. And and I guess, you know, the further away it
gets from...it gets from Jamaica, and it's always going
to be like, I guess an interpretation of it. I think
that's really beautiful. I think a lot of people now view the,
like, the food culture, they almost don't realize that we're
part of like a continuum. And this is part of the evolution of
food, which is going to happen forever, rather than this is an
endpoint. And so I think it's quite exciting. It just needs to
be done...I think with respect, really,
Lucy Dearlove: totally. And I think it's also about
understanding that. Like, there isn't a definitive, there isn't
necessarily a definitive history of any one particular thing.
Like it's always written from someone's perspective.
Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes.
Lucy Dearlove: Whether or not we know who that person is, if that
makes sense. Like, no, history is entirely objective. But like,
you know, just for example, there's a bit in your book where
you write about seeing the wall of is it the Drax Estate? Yes.
in Dorset, which is where you grew up? Yes. And then later
coming to understand that that wall was the wall of an estate
that belonged to a slave owning family. Yes. And like what,
which is still a very powerful family today. And for me, like
that was just so...like, you don't hear those details. Don't
talk about how the actual, like physical architecture and the
political system of this country is linked to the enslavement of
African people. Yeah, we just don't talk about that like in
Melissa Thompson: Yeah, and it's everywhere. Well, this is it. I
that way.
mean, like, and obviously that realisation, because when I was
working on the local paper in Dorset, and it was, I think it
was like the, it must have been the...it was a 250 years or 200
years since the sort of abolishment of slavery. And at
the time, I remember trying to, I don't think it was public
knowledge that the Drax family were linked to slavery. So I was
trying to find out so I did quite a lot about it. And then I
think that came to pass a bit later after I'd left there. And
I remember like he got...I'm not sure if Richard Drax had been
made the MP of South Dorset at the time but I remember him
walking into the Echo offices, and I was with the receptionist
and they were really cool women, they were really funny. And they
were sort of bit older. And he walked, he walked in, and then
he kind of I think he went to a meeting or something. They like,
Oh, he's such a silver fox like this. And, um, but I was just
like, I mean, obviously, like, he's not...like, it wasn't him.
But it's kind of the whole thing is a bit. It's quite icky. I
mean, he's never really, I mean, what do you do? What do I want?
I don't want him to say sorry for it. But I think it'd be
quite nice to have some sort of acknowledgement or some sort of
distancing. A lot of people were like, oh, but that was back in
the day. And it's like, yeah, but
Lucy Dearlove: But they're still really they are still...
Melissa Thompson: Benefitting. Hugely
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, they're still benefitting from that
system. Like, you can't deny that. No, it's a physical fact
that their wealth comes from that system.
Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes. Yes. And where are we? You know,
like, there is no kind of, like, inherited inherited wealth. Like
for...yeah, my parents were really skint. I mean, they kind
of like pushed themselves up. And now they're doing all right.
And I guess, you know, like, I think I'm at the stage,
hopefully, where my daughter will have some sort of, but it's
still like, yeah, we're almost starting from scratch. I tell
you what, though, it was quite nice to be able to...like all of
these things, what what's really nice about life is like, all
these things that you go through, they might frustrate
you, or they might anger you. And you think, oh it's a bit
shit. But to be able to put that into a into a book has been like
amazing, or like talk about Christopher Columbus, my dad
just getting really annoyed anytime someone mentioned his
name. And it's like, Dad, I've been able to put that in a book.
And he's like, yeah, he's just quite. Yeah, he's quite, he's
quite happy with that.
Lucy Dearlove: Because obviously, it is a book that is,
has this like sort of universe, like almost universal history
that is relevant to anyone really, because it's a history
that we all should know about. And then it is also very
personal book. So I guess like, where did you choose to kind of
draw those boundaries? Like, was there stuff that you chose not
to include? Like, how did you like, how did you choose what to
include from the history?
Melissa Thompson: Well this is why it was so hard. Because it
was it was so much information and the research, I loved the
research because there were a lot of things that I kind of
knew, almost by hearsay, and then to go and find them, like
in kind of the like contemporaneous text was mind
blowing, it was it was like, Oh, my God it was like striking
gold. And then I had to, I had, like, you know, collate all that
information and then put it into it, put it into an essay, and,
and also I've been talking about, you know, who gets to
write the history? It was, you know, like, was it is the
victors that get to...I put this anatto in, but it's almost like
gone....
Lucy Dearlove: Oh, is that what that smell is? Yes, it almost
smells like Sichuan peppercorn. Yeah. It's like a, like a very
fragrant.
Melissa Thompson: Yes. It's sort of the oil went red and then
now, I think scos we've been talking so long it's lost it's
colour, yeah, I've not seen that before.. It's kind of I don't
know, like, even as, as a writer, and as a journalist,
it's like, there was it was just the hardest thing I've ever I've
ever had to write because it was, it was a series of essays.
Yeah. Then also that had to stand alone, but then also sort
of interplay with each other. Yeah. And so I think I just, you
know, I, like, you know, when you're, when you're a writer,
you get quite good at sort of, like having to be brutal to get
something down to a word count. And so then it was just a case
of like, as I reread it, like, you know, however, many millions
of times I read those words, like, is this adding anything to
the story? Or is it adding, like, like, because everything,
in my opinion, added something, but it was like, What can I take
out? You know, like, again, sorry, I started saying that
about who gets to write the history? A lot of it, you know,
the indigenous Jamaicans didn't have a written language. Yeah,
so, and yeah, there are a few artifacts...I mean bizarrely in
the Horniman they've got but I'm not sure where it is, but it's a
Taino thing for extracting the juice from cassava. grated
cassava for the bammy. I've got bammy by the way. We were gonna
have fried fish Escovitch but then I couldn't go to the fish
manga.
Oh, great. I've never had bammy before.
Okay, so I wouldn't normally serve it with this but it's
quite nice. So it's just soaking in. In coconut milk. Cool. These
are I bought them back from Jamaica. It's amazing. I went to
go and see bammy. Did you see in the in the book the bit about
the bammy? Yeah. I've got one more left and this little fly
from Jamaica! It's like Jurassic Park or something!
Lucy Dearlove: Better not let it defrost. Just in case.
Why did you call it Motherland?
Melissa Thompson: Well, I wanted to call it Fatherland at first.
Okay. And then and then Kate was like, Oh...it was a working
title. And I went to quit fatherland, and Kate was like,
That's a bit weird why don't you just call it motherland. I was
like, Okay. And then afterwards, like months later, and I was
like, oh no, because Fatherland, cos that's where my dad's from
and she was like, oh right! But I hadn't explained at the time
and then also I think motherland as well, because it's like, it's
it's the Motherland you don't I mean, and it's like, it's, I
think, like this idea of, of like giving life but that like,
I don't know I think especially with Jamaica's history it's kind
of it was so like a lot of it'a so violent, so brutal, but I
don't know like I think motherland almost sounds quite
optimistic. And kind of, like life life like life giving
really. And, you know, I think despite everything people
survived, like people survived what what the Europeans were
doing to them? And I think it's like a trice. It's a, it's a
triumph.
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, that makes sense. I wondered if it was a
nod to because when Britain colonised Jamaica, they caught
they called itself its motherland, right? It was known
as the motherland. And that was really fucked up. So I did also
feel like that's kind of an interesting little ironic nod.
And that kind of ties into what you're saying that like survival
through that, like, despite being given this, like,
inappropriate mother.
Melissa Thompson: yes. I mean, it's not. And then people came
here thinking that people are gonna be though, like, greeting
them with open arms. And
Lucy Dearlove: yeah, which is kind of the most horrible,
almost not the most horrible thing about it all, but just
such another horrible detail? Yes. Yes. About the how they
were misled over that.
Melissa Thompson: Yeah. And people just like spitting at
them in the street and stuff like that. And it's crazy. You
know, I wish I could have had that conversation with my
grandparents, whether they would have told me I don't know. But
yeah, about what it was really, like, I'm so glad I got to
write, I got to write this book. Like, I'm sorry, I still find it
kind of a bit mad, that I got to write it. But I'm so glad that I
did. Because just what I've learned, and and you know, these
things that you kind of take for you sort of not that I've taken
for granted, but things that I've sort of thought, oh, maybe
you know, like, I think that to have a bit of authority about
something is just quite nice. A lot of things that I thought
were the case and be able to actually well, yeah, they were
the case. And I've got the evidence. I mean, the whole
narrative around indigenous people in the Americas. And, you
know, I grew up thinking it was just all because of, like
diseases that people didn't have immunity to. And while that was
true, like the Spanish were horrific, like there was
Lucy Dearlove: never heard that either.
Melissa Thompson: And, I mean, you were asking about, like,
what to include what to put in, I could have kept on going with
examples of what they did. But I had to just kind of like Stop
it, you know, because it's just like, it's just, it's a bit
much. And this is where, you know, I like to have another
book about I don't know, I guess I'm not sure that anyone is
going to want to include any any more of that into into a cookery
book, but to be able to add any more of the history. Because
it's kind of, I guess, there will be other elements that
people will that people maybe want to focus on. And I think
sometimes less is more, right? Because, because also I don't
want people to become desensitized to it. So it's just
like, right. Here's like, here's, I hope this is enough.
Take it and, you know, because because otherwise, I think it
just becomes a bit. Yeah, like it's just actually, ultimately
this is a cookbook. Yeah, a cookbook with a with a history.
And yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: Did you always know you wanted it to have that
much history in it? Was that very much part of the pitch?
Melissa Thompson: Yeah, yeah, totally. And yeah, like that was
really important to me. I'm sorry, this is taking...I always
do this.
Lucy Dearlove: This always happens when I record with
people cooking, it just ends up completely derailing the
process. Entirely. My responsibility
Melissa Thompson: is because it's me trying to multitask,
which is just my Yeah,
Lucy Dearlove: it's you trying to answer like quite in depth
questions while also making a recipe. So we've got the we've
got the corn in the pan now though.
Melissa Thompson: Yeah, so the corn 's sizzling, I'm trying to
like, try and get a bit of colour to that. And then I'm
gonna take the kernels off, and then I'm about to like, devein
these prawns?
Lucy Dearlove: Okay. And they're beautiful big prawns
Melissa Thompson: Yeah, they're right on No, yeah, they come
from they come from the supermarket, unfortunately.
Lucy Dearlove: Oh, throw them out. Something that really
struck me when I was reading the book was that it feels like and
please correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like there's a very
strong oral tradition in Jamaican foods. How do you go
about making that translation?
Melissa Thompson: Oh man. Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you asked me
this, because I think it's, it's, it's quite an important
thing. Like there's a lot of talk at the moment with recipes,
especially I think, sort of recipes from like, like from
across the Caribbean, I think across Africa, across South or
in fact across all of Asia about how like you know, trying to get
recipes from from typically your mom your grandma because it's
usually the women right? And, and this idea of people being
like, oh, you know, you do a handful of this and or like a
pinch of this and it's like...what a handful like my
hands are different sizes and It's like, and it's almost
framed in this, like, with with this frustration, but actually,
I think it's the most beautiful thing because it's, it's that
connection to that person. And, and also it makes cooking like
an intuitive process rather than kind of a prescriptive process
process. And, you know, I guess we lose that. And like, over
over time, and as kind of generations, I guess, get, I
don't know, this, like kind of less of this, like the family
unit that sort of spans generations. But and so I think
actually, the kind of the oral tradition is is really lovely.
And, and it's not when my when my grandma taught me how to make
the curry chicken recipe. She didn't use any, any any things.
It was just like, you just put this like, you know, you'd like
to sort of sprinkle a curry powder and you just, you can
tell that it's right. I mean, when I was doing my pop up and I
was doing like I was doing like a lot of karage chicken like I
never wrote the recipe I could just smell it and know when it
was Yeah. And I dread to think how many, like, you know, like
tons of chicken thighs when I cooked over the years. And I
could just smell when it was right when the combination was
right. And I think usually what that was saying about Maureen
down in Brixton. Now she doesn't like none of her recipes are
written down. And yeah, she's cooking for service. And she's
also cooking for like catering and stuff. And yeah, recipes.
None of our recipes are written down. Because it's never been
part of her thing to write it down. Like she just know, she
can tell she can look at it by the smell of it. Yeah. And I
think you kind of lose that. It's like with like, writing a
jerk recipe down...in the jerk recipe. And like if you have
pimento...let me see if I've got some...
Lucy Dearlove: Is this your spice cupboard?
Melissa Thompson: Yes. Yeah, I bought back.
Lucy Dearlove: Oh, wow. Yes. Oh, very organized, very organized.
Melissa Thompson: I got a label maker for Christmas. Oh, great.
It's like the best thing I've ever received. So these pimento
berries are from... the smell has kind of like lessened a bit.
Yeah, that's Oh, wow. And but then you smell this? And I think
this is from this country, I bought this for a recipe. Oh,
yes. No, it's completely different. It's all spice
because people were like, oh, so I bought back so much from
Jamaica and the car just stunk of cloves. Because that's why
it's all spice. Right? And because it's like, what cloves
nutmeg, nutmeg and cinnamon, like there are so many different
jerk recipes out there. But then, and some of them call for
like cinnamon and nutmeg. And like, I don't know this for
certain, but I almost think that maybe that was because if you
had pimento, that was that had been, you know, sitting on a
supermarket shelf for a long time it loses those other notes.
Yeah, and so people make it up. So what I've said, in the
cookbook, I'm like smell your pimento. And if you can smell
clove and everything in it, then just have the pimento berries.
But otherwise, add like clove and nutmeg and cinnamon to your
jerk marinade. I mean, it's still gonna taste delicious,
like however people do it. But it's this thing where it's quite
difficult to put something down for definite and it's just the
hope that people will use that as a start off points and, and
adjust it because I mean recipes will have been adjusted forever.
Lucy Dearlove: Of course, I really liked...so it's like a
It was just to get around with this this thing. Yeah.
separate little note to the recipe that you're talking about
in the jerk recipe where you write about the using the
different spices if you need to. And I just really liked how that
And that's that's related to the oral tradition as well. Right?
almost gives. It's almost like asking the reader to take a bit
of control, which I think is...you might lose in a sense.
Like, you don't have that much control when you're reading a
recipe or you're cooking a recipe that someone else has
Because that would just be...it might not necessarily be a
written. But it's almost like you're giving permission to
people to be like, make your own call. Yeah, like, yeah, and this
problem in Jamaica. So people wouldn't do it. Yes. Or Yes. You
might be how you like it. Yeah, you know, you might find out how
you like it, you might want you might like it with the extra
know, you might know to do that if you've watched people cooking
cloves, like, you know, I really liked that about it, it felt
really unusual. Like I just didn't, I don't know if I'd seen
a note before and I really liked it.
the recipe before. Yes. So it's a way of kind of giving people
that information in like a non prescriptive way. Yeah, I guess.
Yeah,
Melissa Thompson: totally. And also, I think whenever people,
you know, if a cook... if they're cooking, a sort of a
nation's dish, a nation's food for the first time, they might
not feel that confident, because if elements are unfamiliar, but
then, you know, trying to, I guess guide people to to you
know, how ingredients should taste and use more of your
senses to kind of to get to understand it and to make a
judgment call yourself,
Lucy Dearlove: like when you came to be writing down these
recipes that have, you know, a lot of personal significance for
you. Did the format of a written recipe feel adequate for
translating kind of what you wanted to say about that recipe?
Melissa Thompson: I think it's, I think this is why I went into
feature writing rather than news because like brevity has never
been my strong point. I think almost I want to be like, Oh,
but you know, it's like this, then it's like that. And I
think, I don't know, maybe like it'd be, it'd be quite nice to
do it as an audiobook or something where I can be like,
but you know, there's sort of so many
Lucy Dearlove: That would be so nice.
Melissa Thompson: You know, I mean, just like be able to.
Yeah, I think it's I think there are a lot of reasons why sort of
maybe that there have been fewer books written about Jamaican
foods. I mean, mainly it's because the gatekeepers haven't
permitted it. But then also, I think that it's actually the
biggest reason I also think there is a bit of a thing from
within within communities. There's like a kind of
understandable protectiveness about it. And I think actually,
for a lot of the people who are doing cookbooks for the first
not for the first time it we're doing cookbooks. I mean, there's
Do you know, Maria? Maria Bradford? Shwen Shwen?
Lucy Dearlove: Oh, no, I don't know her
Melissa Thompson: Oh, God. So I spoke to her for something. And
she's, so she's doing a cookbook about she's in Sierra Leonean
cookbook is coming out next year. And I'm so excited for it.
Like we talked about the responsibility that comes with
it, because it's one cookbook, I mean, this is the thing, my
book, it's one cookbook for a cuisine that is that is like
huge with so many different influences. When there are 20,
it doesn't matter. But when there are fewer, it does matter.
And I don't think there's been...so Maria was saying that
she doesn't think there's there's been any Sierra Leonian
cookbooks published in the UK. Wow. And so like, the pressure
for that also, she's so kind of, she's so she's so brilliant. She
was like, you know, and she was like, you know, I will like
fucking buy a book about like, Italian food and I will fucking
go out of my way. You know, she was like, it's about time that
you fucking did it with our, with our food as well. Go and
find cassava leaf. Go and find potato leaf like speak to people
find out like, you know, like, explore go and fucking get it
because that people have bottarga ina fucking recipe no
one billet like, like, you know, things are what's the that's an
eye. But then you have Yeah, like color cassava leaf and
stuff like that. Like and people just, um, I can't you know,
like, what, what can I use instead, can I use spinach just
like, and I think as people who enjoy foods, there's like an
assumption that they are going to be kind of inquisitive. And
like, oh, yeah, all of the things I think that make people
interested in food. So actually go and be inquisitive and go,
you know, it's not just about reading a book, but it's about
going and actually immersing yourself in that culture. Going
to go into the shops and, and just familiarizing and people
like, the thing about one thing I can say about foods and food
people is that they love sharing, and, you know, talking
to people about stuff, and it's just like, it's just, it's it's
yeah, it's like it's quite exciting.
Lucy Dearlove: And so in the book there, I mean, you've
mentioned Maureen already, but kind of there's a lot of recipes
in the book that haven't just come from your family. They've
come from sort of like chosen family. Yes. So could you talk a
bit about the recipes you've included in the book from
different people that you've learned over the years?
Melissa Thompson: So yeah, so it's like a combination? Well,
and some things are like, so I moved to London for uni at 20.
And so that kind of, because okay, I guess everyone's got
their repertoire, right. So we'd have, we'd have our thing.
Lucy Dearlove: And then what was your repertoire?
Melissa Thompson: Well, it was like, carry go. Curry chicken.
oxtail. Like patties. Because if you go to like, if you go to
like a sort of any kind of, like celebration, or like funeral or
something, like there's always gonna be the same thing. Your
fried fish, fried chicken. Ackee and saltfish, obviously, all
different dumplings. And then you kind of add to it as you go.
I was like, you know, we're coming to London and eating at
sort of, like, invariably takeaways, yeah, because there
are kind of loads of Caribbean restaurants. Yeah, restaurants.
Yeah. And then your repertoire kind of, sort of widens further.
But then also, I think, I like Akwasi Brenya-Mensa, I did a
talk with him in in, in Belfast. And he was saying that when
you're, when you're cooking cuisine outside of the country
of origin, you're only ever doing a version of it. And I
thought that was really I thought that was really
interesting. Way to, yeah, to view it because it's, it's, it's
kind of true, right? And it's like, I mean, going back to the
whole ingredients as well and being true to ingredients. I
think, as much as I think it's important that I think I would
say with like talking about Sierra Leonean cuisine, there
are certain dishes that can only be made with cassava leaf,
right? You can't there isn't there is no substitution, you're
not gonna get the flavour for that. But then there are other
things where, you know, I don't want people especially if people
can't afford it, like I don't want money to be something
that's going to... so if something Yeah, you know, it's
something can be bought cheap or like, rather than someone having
to go out and buy ingredients that they might not use all the
time. Like, is there anything there are some things that you
have to eat like you can only make this if you if you use this
then having that kind of flexibility. The the Scotch
bonnet fumes! For me the whole idea of like decolonizing like
food writing and stuff is moving away from this kind of like
Francophone kind of, like, on my, on the cookbook sheet I was
with, with Melek. And so it was like Benjamin Ebuehi the was the
economist and Melek was her assistant. It was amazing.
Because obviously, Patsy was taking the pictures...Patricia
Niven. Yes. Yeah. And so kind of, and I really like it. I
really wanted to like, because I think Patricia, Patsy, Benji and
Jen, Kay, who did the props, like their aesthetic is sort of
like a soul, sort of separate aesthetics are so complimentary,
that they've never worked together. And so then they kind
of yeah, all came together. And it was just, it was such a
dream. But then Melek and I were talking about just like the
language and that kind of like, you know, we're not we're not
julienning our vegetables. We are cutting them into matchday
matchsticks. And it's this, and I read this thing, I don't think
I think it was true about this person. It's like the language
and how language can be a massive barrier when you're
talking about food because you just don't get it. And and there
was this thing about toss, like toss a salad. So someone
literally tossed the salad like, because they just didn't I mean,
what does that what does that mean to toss a, you know, to
toss a salad or, and as a restaurant writer, it's so easy
to, to use this like to repeat this language. Because when you
get to understand it, but you know, I still don't know what
broil means. I know that's an American term, but I don't know
what it means.
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, I hadn't even thought about julienne as
like a bastion of French cookery.
Melissa Thompson: But yeah. To saute, All of it, like all of
it, you know? Yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. I think it's really, it's really
interesting to talk about, like decolonizing work in that
context, because I think sometimes people kind of hear
the word and they assume it's going to be this huge, like,
dramatic process of reckoning. And it's like, yeah, it should
be that as well. But I will say like, a lot of it does come down
to these very simple things. That might not seem that big on
the surface of it, but actually, go so deep, we don't even
realise yeah, like the language.
Melissa Thompson: Yes. I mean, to be honest, I don't often
because it's like a word that I hear come up so much these days.
And I try not to use it too much myself, because I think it can
almost, but I'd rather talk about it as like what it is,
rather than naming it. Like it was in practical terms. I know.
Because I've said it sort of now.
Lucy Dearlove: No, but it Yeah, in the context of No, I think
that makes sense.
Melissa Thompson: I'm using bottled lemon juice only for
speed. Yeah. So this is actually say, because you're talking
about Helen Graves. So I cooked from her book over the weekend.
Oh, it's so good. It's so good. Well, it's from hers and
Genevieve Taylor's
Lucy Dearlove: Oh, yeah. So you posted those. Another barbecue
book? Yes,
Melissa Thompson: yes. Is and so this is her charred spring
onion. Salsa. So I'm gonna pour this over the salad
Lucy Dearlove: Delicious
Melissa Thompson: this is just made up basically.
Lucy Dearlove: So we've got diced red onion, diced
cucumbers, some parsley and you've got the corn that you've
charred and then like cut off the cob and this charred spring
onion salsa.
Melissa Thompson: Thank you very much. Okay, well, I'll do this.
And then I'm gonna attempt those pina coladas would be nice if I
did it at the same time.
Lucy Dearlove: Oh, that's right. Honestly, like I just I can't
express enough my gratitude for you cooking in this weather.
Melissa Thompson: I love I love it. And now that I've got a bit
of time to think I'm I'm really relishing.
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, cuz cooking must have just felt like worked.
Well, it was work. Yeah.
Melissa Thompson: I just didn't, I didn't cook really. And so
I've just got back into I mean whenever you know people talk
about like cooking for cooking for joy and stuff. And if you
don't if you're not happy then like it sort of translates into
the food and I really believe in that and when I, after I had my
daughter when I was pregnant with her I stopped doing my pop
up and then I didn't really cook for a long time because I I just
didn't really had I didn't have I was just I wasn't really
feeling anything and and so then it was actually during lockdown.
I started cooking again, so it was really nice to...
Lucy Dearlove: Does Kate cook?
Melissa Thompson: Yes, she does. But she always says she doesn't
even get a chance anymore. But that's absolute bollocks cos
she's really busy. So she gets home quite late. We will I think
we both moan about stuff, but then actually wouldn't really
want it to be that different.
Lucy Dearlove: classic I think that's that's a sign that it's a
good balance. Yeah, yeah, you can both have a moan but
ultimately,
Melissa Thompson: Do you cook a lot?
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, I'm the cook in my household and Rory,
my husband is...And this is this has been a sort of bone of
contention over the years that I'm a real backseat cook. So he
really understandably does not like that, we've kind of got to
the point where like, he will cook but I'm not allowed to come
and quote unquote, help. I had just I just have to stay away
and then do the clearing up.
Melissa Thompson: Why? Cuz you're literally saying stuff to
him.
Lucy Dearlove: Because I'll just be like, maybe like, I think a
drop of water while you're cooking those or like, it might
just be better if he's like, NO, get out. And that means that
sometimes he makes something and I would have cooked it
differently. And I just have to I just have to shut the fuck up.
Yes, yes. Yes. Also, it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't
matter. No, not. Not everything has to be perfect. Also, my
cooking isn't perfect. But yeah, yeah, I do really I do really
enjoy cooking.
Melissa Thompson: When...Kate made when when we were first
dating, actually. And she made this. She made this teriyaki
salmon. And so she still talks about this about my reaction to
it. I was like, did it come from a packet? And I meant that in
a....cos it was so good. Yeah, it was really good. She, she's
never like, let me live that down.
Lucy Dearlove: Ya know, I can see how that's very well, meant
because it's like saying, you know, this is really good
packet. You can never be for me. You can never be Heinz ketchup.
So yeah, if someone made homemade ketchup and it tasted
like Heinz, I'd be like, Oh my god. It was like Heinz.
Melissa Thompson: So you're like a Heinz for ketchup?
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, that's my favourite. I accept no
substitutes. But Hellmans mayonnaise. Or kewpie. Yeah, um,
depending on what it's for.
Melissa Thompson: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm because I like
ketchup. I can be a bit more. I think I used to be quite like,
sort of strict about it. But then there are a few others that
I accept, like I quite like a Tiptree ketchip/
Lucy Dearlove: saying oh, I have that one is good. Actually. I
have tried that. Yeah, but yeah, I haven't gotten like a fancy
cafe. Okay, nice. Yeah. Are you a ketchup or brown sauce? Oh,
Melissa Thompson: in a household. It will definitely be
ketchup. I like I like brown sauce. But no laughing like he
has become obsessed with with ketchup. She's so fickle. She's
gonna get like there was a time where I know she couldn't get
enough. And now she Yeah, now she likes. I know. She's sort of
a bit nice. I might drink some ketchup. Okay, do you want any
rum in this?
Lucy Dearlove: why not? It's
Melissa Thompson: it's after 12 Exactly it's practically evening
practically Yeah.
Lucy Dearlove: Gotta take all the all the help we can get in
this weather as well. Yes. Oh my god. Amazing. So is that just
pineapple blended with coconut milk and then some ice?
Melissa Thompson: I didn't have any decoration unfortunately.
Lucy Dearlove: I hink I'll live
Melissa Thompson: Ok so bammy and then I think we're done
aren't we
Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. So you've just fried that.
Melissa Thompson: Yeah so it's, I soak it in coconut milk. And
then and then I fry it. Yes. I love it. I love it so much like
going to see the bammy place. It was so cool. It was always the
dream. So you got red onion, cucumber, the charred corn a bit
of red pepper. And then so parseyand the charred spring
onion salsa from the weekend from Helens book,
Lucy Dearlove: and remind me what's on these poems.
Melissa Thompson: So they're pepper drawn so it's it's like
annato, scotch bonnet, onion, garlic, and a bit of pimento.
Lucy Dearlove: Recipe in Motherland.
Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes.
Lucy Dearlove: Thanks so much to Melissa Thompson. Her book,
Motherland is out now. I wanted to make sure that before ending
this episode, I just said explicitly what a force for
change Melissa has been and continues to be in food. As I
made the point early on in our conversation, she tirelessly
uplifts other people within the industry. As her platform grows
she only seems to do this with more enthusiasm. She's
uncompromising, but she's also somehow enduringly positive and
optimistic in her approach. I can't wait to see what she does
in the future. This was the third episode in this month's
Micro Series about personal food writing. You can listen to the
other episodes, one with Rebecca May Johnson and Angela Hui and
one with Thea Lenarduzzi on the podcast feed now. And there's a
fourth bonus Patreon episode to come which is specifically about
recipes in personal writing. Melissa and I talked a bit about
this in this episode. So there's more from her and there's more
from it. Everyone else has been the series so far. Like it is
listener funded. So patrons subscriptions are really
important. You can sign up patreon.com/leckerpodcast. Music
is by Blue Dot sessions and you haven't got long to wait until
the next like episode. There's a trailer coming later this week
for the new series that's launching very very soon. Make
sure you're subscribed for that and I will be back in your feed
very soon.