1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,000 Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove. 2 00:00:10,770 --> 00:00:12,510 Melissa Thompson: What what's really nice about life...is like 3 00:00:12,540 --> 00:00:14,310 all these things that you go through, they might frustrate 4 00:00:14,310 --> 00:00:16,620 you or they might anger you, and you think, oh that's a bit shit. 5 00:00:16,740 --> 00:00:19,170 But to be able to put that into a...into a book has been, like, 6 00:00:19,170 --> 00:00:19,890 amazing. 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,350 Lucy Dearlove: When we're thinking about personal food 8 00:00:22,350 --> 00:00:27,180 writing, what happens at the place where it intersects with 9 00:00:27,180 --> 00:00:32,790 historical writing or political writing? And what about 10 00:00:32,790 --> 00:00:37,050 permission? Who is granted permission to write whatever 11 00:00:37,050 --> 00:00:41,430 they want? Melissa Thompson is a food writer I've admired for 12 00:00:41,430 --> 00:00:44,970 years now. And her book, Motherland, came out last month. 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,190 It's a book of recipes for Jamaican food, some that Melissa 14 00:00:50,190 --> 00:00:52,860 grew up eating with her family, some that she's learned from the 15 00:00:52,860 --> 00:00:56,010 community around her in London from people like Maureen Tyne, 16 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,030 who cooks incredible food from her house in Brixton and some 17 00:01:00,030 --> 00:01:05,670 that she's eaten on trips to Jamaica as an adult. Motherland 18 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:09,600 is also a book about the history of Jamaica, and Melissa weaves 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,380 this so elegantly with her own story in a way that it makes it 20 00:01:13,380 --> 00:01:17,160 impossible for us to ignore the violent history of colonialism 21 00:01:17,190 --> 00:01:22,440 and how it has to do with all of us in Britain. As you'll hear us 22 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,650 talk about, Melissa uses the physical walls of the Drax 23 00:01:25,650 --> 00:01:29,610 estate in Dorset, where she grew up, to demonstrate how ingrained 24 00:01:29,610 --> 00:01:33,000 Britain's colonial legacy is in the very fabric of our lives 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,860 here, and how it's mostly been buried. I also asked Melissa how 26 00:01:37,860 --> 00:01:41,460 she approaches writing down recipes which are very personal 27 00:01:41,460 --> 00:01:45,420 to her in a format which can be comprehensible and replicable by 28 00:01:45,420 --> 00:01:49,860 anyone who buys her book or reads her writing. Is anything 29 00:01:49,860 --> 00:01:56,550 lost or compromised in this process of translation? I went 30 00:01:56,550 --> 00:01:59,070 round to record with Melissa at her house on one of those 31 00:01:59,070 --> 00:02:02,970 freakishly hot summer heatwave days we had this year, where - 32 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,450 unbelievably, she deserves a medal for this - she cooked me 33 00:02:06,450 --> 00:02:07,020 lunch. 34 00:02:10,259 --> 00:02:11,159 So what you making? 35 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:15,690 Melissa Thompson: So I'm making...pepper prawns, and just 36 00:02:15,690 --> 00:02:19,470 some. Yeah, some grilled corn. But I might take...I might do 37 00:02:19,470 --> 00:02:21,090 grilled corn and make it into a salad. 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:21,780 Lucy Dearlove: Oh, lovely. 39 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:22,620 Melissa Thompson: Just like with a bit of... 40 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:23,490 Lucy Dearlove: Charred. 41 00:02:23,580 --> 00:02:25,710 Melissa Thompson: Yeah, like with a bit of red onion. 42 00:02:25,860 --> 00:02:26,580 Lucy Dearlove: Nice 43 00:02:26,610 --> 00:02:28,920 Melissa Thompson: and stuff. I'm just thinking anything. That's 44 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:32,130 cold, but actually, that's not hot. Yeah, I might do that. 45 00:02:32,130 --> 00:02:32,610 Actually. 46 00:02:32,790 --> 00:02:33,810 Lucy Dearlove: Is this from the book? 47 00:02:34,290 --> 00:02:38,100 Melissa Thompson: The prawns are, yeah, like pepper shrimp is 48 00:02:38,100 --> 00:02:40,170 like a sort of classic. They are quite...do you like heat? 49 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,990 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah I mean, I don't want to like you know, you 50 00:02:42,990 --> 00:02:45,300 know, when you're like...you get really cocky about it? 51 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:45,630 Melissa Thompson: Yes! 52 00:02:45,660 --> 00:02:48,180 Lucy Dearlove: As a white person I'm always like, yeah, I can 53 00:02:48,180 --> 00:02:53,940 handle it. And then I always...Yeah. Cos I do like 54 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:56,340 heat but there's a relativity there. 55 00:02:56,430 --> 00:02:58,950 Melissa Thompson: Exactly. Yeah. It's like how hot Exactly. And 56 00:02:58,950 --> 00:03:00,840 that's the hardest thing to quantify. 57 00:03:00,900 --> 00:03:03,360 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. Yeah. Just never know what someone else's 58 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:04,260 tolerance is gonna be. 59 00:03:05,070 --> 00:03:07,560 Melissa Thompson: Yeah. So I'll do some I'll do some plantain. 60 00:03:07,740 --> 00:03:08,400 Lucy Dearlove: Great. Yeah. 61 00:03:08,430 --> 00:03:08,820 Melissa Thompson: Yeah? 62 00:03:09,060 --> 00:03:09,750 Lucy Dearlove: Love plantain. 63 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:14,760 Melissa Thompson: So my book is called Motherland. And it is 64 00:03:14,790 --> 00:03:19,710 about ...t's a cookbook, a Jamaican cookbook, that also 65 00:03:19,710 --> 00:03:24,180 details the history of Jamaica to kind of put the food within 66 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:27,120 the context of Jamaica's history. And it's quite cool. 67 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,340 Because it's a book that I was looking for, for a long time. I 68 00:03:29,340 --> 00:03:33,780 kept on ordering books, wanting it to be this. And it didn't 69 00:03:33,780 --> 00:03:36,360 exist. And that the closest is Provisions by the Rousseau 70 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:37,740 sisters in America. 71 00:03:37,740 --> 00:03:38,520 Lucy Dearlove: OH, I don't know that. Okay, cool. 72 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,530 Melissa Thompson: I've got it down there. You can have a look 73 00:03:40,530 --> 00:03:42,510 if you want. Yeah, yeah, obviously, the kind of the 74 00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:44,430 African American experience is so much different, although 75 00:03:44,430 --> 00:03:49,260 that's kind of African American, Caribbean, like Jamaican, which 76 00:03:49,260 --> 00:03:54,120 is something else. But they kind of talk about more about their 77 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,400 family. And their kind of grandmother, I mean, it's an 78 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,660 amazing book. And so to be able to write this...the whole thing 79 00:04:00,660 --> 00:04:03,150 has been a bit of a dream, because I think my agent got in 80 00:04:03,150 --> 00:04:07,770 touch with me on the back of my BBC Good Food column. And then I 81 00:04:07,950 --> 00:04:11,610 had met a publisher at a supper club, and she was like, oh, you 82 00:04:11,610 --> 00:04:14,190 know, like, what's exciting in the world of food at the moment? 83 00:04:14,580 --> 00:04:17,400 And I think I said to her, I'll think about it and I was 84 00:04:18,030 --> 00:04:20,400 like...Rangoon Sisters! and she was like, Yeah, we know about 85 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,260 them already. And obviously their book, their book then came 86 00:04:22,260 --> 00:04:24,960 out, and then I was thinking about it, and we kind of like 87 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,450 ended up following each other on Instagram and a while but while 88 00:04:27,450 --> 00:04:30,630 later I emailed her about someone else who I thought it'd 89 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:32,250 be good to write a book 90 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:33,570 Lucy Dearlove: But at this point, you weren't putting 91 00:04:33,570 --> 00:04:34,200 yourself forward? 92 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:34,920 Melissa Thompson: No, no, 93 00:04:35,070 --> 00:04:36,210 Lucy Dearlove: Very classic you I feel like 94 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,310 Melissa Thompson: I just like it wasn't like...really? 95 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,510 Lucy Dearlove: I just feel like you're...my impression that I 96 00:04:41,510 --> 00:04:44,990 have from you it's just that you are so...you are like the most 97 00:04:44,990 --> 00:04:46,670 important supportive person, like you were always lifting 98 00:04:46,670 --> 00:04:49,280 other people up like so. That sounds very characteristic from 99 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:51,770 what I know about you to meet an editor and be like you should 100 00:04:51,770 --> 00:04:54,440 publish all these other people's book rather than being like I 101 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:55,520 actually really want to write one. 102 00:04:56,420 --> 00:04:58,730 Melissa Thompson: Well, yeah, yeah, she was like, thanks for 103 00:04:58,730 --> 00:05:00,110 that. Have you thought about doing it? And I was like, I 104 00:05:00,110 --> 00:05:03,410 dunno! Well...actually... 105 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:05,270 Lucy Dearlove: And had you thought about it? 106 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:10,070 Melissa Thompson: I had ideas, I had ideas, and but I just didn't 107 00:05:10,070 --> 00:05:13,310 think, I didn't think I was there yet. And it's what...this 108 00:05:13,670 --> 00:05:16,070 is why this whole process has been so interesting, because you 109 00:05:16,370 --> 00:05:19,010 have...in a way, it's almost frustrating, because obviously, 110 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,290 the way that everything happens sequentially, like you get a 111 00:05:21,290 --> 00:05:24,680 column, you know, and then you get approached, you know, and 112 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,810 then you end up getting commissioned. And obviously, 113 00:05:26,810 --> 00:05:29,900 like, I could have written this book, you know, three years ago, 114 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:32,840 yeah, like before, before I got I got the column and everything 115 00:05:33,020 --> 00:05:35,240 in a way, that's quite frustrating, because, and that's 116 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,480 why you say about, like, lifting other people up. And for me, 117 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,580 it's almost like, it's, I think it's born out of frustration, 118 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:44,120 because it's like, there are all these amazing people. And a lot 119 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,060 of kind of, like white people, you know, I mean, like, I'll 120 00:05:47,060 --> 00:05:50,450 just be like, straight, a lot of white people get access to 121 00:05:50,450 --> 00:05:53,840 publishing easily. And it's not to say that they're not good, 122 00:05:53,870 --> 00:05:56,300 but obviously, they can. And they can write about whatever 123 00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:58,760 they want in like with whatever food they want, whether it's 124 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,310 related to their own culture or not. Whereas for black people, 125 00:06:01,370 --> 00:06:04,040 and brown people, it's been a lot harder...and people, I 126 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,320 think, from East and Southeast Asia. I think some of the most 127 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:10,040 exciting, like Southeast Asian restaurants right now are... the 128 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,380 head chef, it's a white person, or it's been founded by white 129 00:06:12,380 --> 00:06:16,400 person. And so now that I'm kind of in the system, it's like, oh, 130 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,340 right, that's how it works. Because I don't I didn't know, I 131 00:06:19,340 --> 00:06:21,710 mean, I've been a journalist for like, what, almost 15 years or 132 00:06:21,710 --> 00:06:23,960 something. But I still don't know how...I didn't know how it 133 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,930 works. I think I said before, like I wrote, it's hard to know, 134 00:06:27,230 --> 00:06:29,660 it's hard to know, like, how to dance. If you don't know, the 135 00:06:29,660 --> 00:06:32,150 moves or something. I can't remember how I phrased it. But 136 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,850 it's like, it's almost like it's quite secretive. And then 137 00:06:34,850 --> 00:06:36,590 actually, you get in it. And it's like, alright, this is how 138 00:06:36,590 --> 00:06:38,510 it works. That's why I'm just like, everyone. So I've been 139 00:06:38,510 --> 00:06:41,270 trying to get quite a few people that I know, and just tried to 140 00:06:41,270 --> 00:06:43,400 get them, whether it's connecting them with my agent, 141 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,980 or just like trying to, like plant the seed, like you can 142 00:06:45,980 --> 00:06:48,680 write a book. And you should be the person writing a book about 143 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,580 this cuisine, because yeah, you know it, and you're good at it. 144 00:06:52,580 --> 00:06:54,500 And so yes, that's where that comes from. 145 00:06:54,710 --> 00:06:56,900 Lucy Dearlove: Even now, I don't know, the industry is maybe 146 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:59,480 broadening a little bit in terms of what gets commissioned. And 147 00:06:59,570 --> 00:07:03,560 but I think you're still so right about, like, whitw people 148 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,990 can write about anything? Yes. And I think there's also a sense 149 00:07:05,990 --> 00:07:08,420 of like, Oh, we've got one of those already, when it comes to 150 00:07:08,420 --> 00:07:11,150 like specific cuisines, and there's like less of an 151 00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:13,760 understanding of like, what different people's perspectives 152 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:14,450 can bring? 153 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:14,930 Melissa Thompson: Yes. 154 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:16,880 Lucy Dearlove: Like, you know, for example, yeah, your book is 155 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,890 about the history of Jamaica. But it's about the history of 156 00:07:18,890 --> 00:07:20,270 Jamaica, from your perspective. 157 00:07:20,270 --> 00:07:21,230 Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes 158 00:07:21,260 --> 00:07:23,450 Lucy Dearlove: Which is why, you know, you could easily have 159 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:26,480 another book about the history of Jamaica from someone else's 160 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,040 perspective and that would also be great. 161 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,870 Lucy Dearlove: Exactly! Yeah, West Winds, also, like 162 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:28,610 Melissa Thompson: Yeah. Well look at Riaz's book! 163 00:07:31,870 --> 00:07:35,530 completely different book. Great to have them both, like they 164 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:36,790 both...there's space for both of them and space for more of them. 165 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,100 Melissa Thompson: Yeah there is space for both of them, and 166 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:41,260 there's space to, there's space for plenty more, as well. And 167 00:07:41,260 --> 00:07:44,650 this is the, I don't know, I think things are getting are 168 00:07:44,650 --> 00:07:47,440 getting better. And it's exciting speaking to people who 169 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,720 are, you know, doing amazing things, there are a few 170 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,330 cookbooks that are kind of due to come out, which I'm really 171 00:07:52,330 --> 00:07:55,300 excited for. And I hope it's just the beginning. And I think 172 00:07:55,330 --> 00:07:59,890 yeah, I think what you say about it being a...like, this is just 173 00:07:59,890 --> 00:08:02,650 my perspective, obviously, my perspective growing up in the 174 00:08:02,650 --> 00:08:06,850 UK. And you know, what Jamaican food means to me, how I cook 175 00:08:06,850 --> 00:08:10,630 Jamaican food. And and I guess, you know, the further away it 176 00:08:10,630 --> 00:08:12,820 gets from...it gets from Jamaica, and it's always going 177 00:08:12,820 --> 00:08:15,520 to be like, I guess an interpretation of it. I think 178 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,090 that's really beautiful. I think a lot of people now view the, 179 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,910 like, the food culture, they almost don't realize that we're 180 00:08:21,910 --> 00:08:25,630 part of like a continuum. And this is part of the evolution of 181 00:08:25,630 --> 00:08:28,180 food, which is going to happen forever, rather than this is an 182 00:08:28,180 --> 00:08:30,940 endpoint. And so I think it's quite exciting. It just needs to 183 00:08:30,940 --> 00:08:32,950 be done...I think with respect, really, 184 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,750 Lucy Dearlove: totally. And I think it's also about 185 00:08:34,750 --> 00:08:38,650 understanding that. Like, there isn't a definitive, there isn't 186 00:08:38,650 --> 00:08:41,650 necessarily a definitive history of any one particular thing. 187 00:08:41,650 --> 00:08:43,510 Like it's always written from someone's perspective. 188 00:08:43,540 --> 00:08:44,290 Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes. 189 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,870 Lucy Dearlove: Whether or not we know who that person is, if that 190 00:08:46,870 --> 00:08:51,040 makes sense. Like, no, history is entirely objective. But like, 191 00:08:51,070 --> 00:08:53,320 you know, just for example, there's a bit in your book where 192 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,830 you write about seeing the wall of is it the Drax Estate? Yes. 193 00:08:57,070 --> 00:09:00,520 in Dorset, which is where you grew up? Yes. And then later 194 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,700 coming to understand that that wall was the wall of an estate 195 00:09:03,730 --> 00:09:07,060 that belonged to a slave owning family. Yes. And like what, 196 00:09:07,090 --> 00:09:10,330 which is still a very powerful family today. And for me, like 197 00:09:10,330 --> 00:09:13,570 that was just so...like, you don't hear those details. Don't 198 00:09:13,570 --> 00:09:17,830 talk about how the actual, like physical architecture and the 199 00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:20,920 political system of this country is linked to the enslavement of 200 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,470 African people. Yeah, we just don't talk about that like in 201 00:09:23,070 --> 00:09:25,440 Melissa Thompson: Yeah, and it's everywhere. Well, this is it. I 202 00:09:23,470 --> 00:09:23,830 that way. 203 00:09:25,492 --> 00:09:28,687 mean, like, and obviously that realisation, because when I was 204 00:09:28,739 --> 00:09:31,831 working on the local paper in Dorset, and it was, I think it 205 00:09:31,882 --> 00:09:35,129 was like the, it must have been the...it was a 250 years or 200 206 00:09:35,181 --> 00:09:37,964 years since the sort of abolishment of slavery. And at 207 00:09:38,015 --> 00:09:41,056 the time, I remember trying to, I don't think it was public 208 00:09:41,107 --> 00:09:44,354 knowledge that the Drax family were linked to slavery. So I was 209 00:09:44,406 --> 00:09:47,498 trying to find out so I did quite a lot about it. And then I 210 00:09:47,549 --> 00:09:50,693 think that came to pass a bit later after I'd left there. And 211 00:09:50,745 --> 00:09:53,940 I remember like he got...I'm not sure if Richard Drax had been 212 00:09:53,992 --> 00:09:56,981 made the MP of South Dorset at the time but I remember him 213 00:09:57,032 --> 00:10:00,228 walking into the Echo offices, and I was with the receptionist 214 00:10:00,279 --> 00:10:03,629 and they were really cool women, they were really funny. And they 215 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:06,824 were sort of bit older. And he walked, he walked in, and then 216 00:10:06,876 --> 00:10:10,174 he kind of I think he went to a meeting or something. They like, 217 00:10:10,226 --> 00:10:13,369 Oh, he's such a silver fox like this. And, um, but I was just 218 00:10:13,421 --> 00:10:16,616 like, I mean, obviously, like, he's not...like, it wasn't him. 219 00:10:16,668 --> 00:10:19,812 But it's kind of the whole thing is a bit. It's quite icky. I 220 00:10:19,863 --> 00:10:23,161 mean, he's never really, I mean, what do you do? What do I want? 221 00:10:23,213 --> 00:10:26,151 I don't want him to say sorry for it. But I think it'd be 222 00:10:26,202 --> 00:10:29,449 quite nice to have some sort of acknowledgement or some sort of 223 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:32,747 distancing. A lot of people were like, oh, but that was back in 224 00:10:32,799 --> 00:10:34,500 the day. And it's like, yeah, but 225 00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:36,610 Lucy Dearlove: But they're still really they are still... 226 00:10:36,940 --> 00:10:37,630 Melissa Thompson: Benefitting. Hugely 227 00:10:37,630 --> 00:10:39,190 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, they're still benefitting from that 228 00:10:39,190 --> 00:10:43,090 system. Like, you can't deny that. No, it's a physical fact 229 00:10:43,090 --> 00:10:44,740 that their wealth comes from that system. 230 00:10:44,740 --> 00:10:47,020 Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes. Yes. And where are we? You know, 231 00:10:47,020 --> 00:10:51,640 like, there is no kind of, like, inherited inherited wealth. Like 232 00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:54,610 for...yeah, my parents were really skint. I mean, they kind 233 00:10:54,610 --> 00:10:57,010 of like pushed themselves up. And now they're doing all right. 234 00:10:57,010 --> 00:11:00,400 And I guess, you know, like, I think I'm at the stage, 235 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,980 hopefully, where my daughter will have some sort of, but it's 236 00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:06,130 still like, yeah, we're almost starting from scratch. I tell 237 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:08,200 you what, though, it was quite nice to be able to...like all of 238 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,720 these things, what what's really nice about life is like, all 239 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,310 these things that you go through, they might frustrate 240 00:11:12,310 --> 00:11:14,290 you, or they might anger you. And you think, oh it's a bit 241 00:11:14,290 --> 00:11:17,200 shit. But to be able to put that into a into a book has been like 242 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,420 amazing, or like talk about Christopher Columbus, my dad 243 00:11:19,420 --> 00:11:21,880 just getting really annoyed anytime someone mentioned his 244 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,850 name. And it's like, Dad, I've been able to put that in a book. 245 00:11:24,850 --> 00:11:27,340 And he's like, yeah, he's just quite. Yeah, he's quite, he's 246 00:11:27,340 --> 00:11:28,210 quite happy with that. 247 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,340 Lucy Dearlove: Because obviously, it is a book that is, 248 00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:34,900 has this like sort of universe, like almost universal history 249 00:11:34,900 --> 00:11:38,170 that is relevant to anyone really, because it's a history 250 00:11:38,170 --> 00:11:40,420 that we all should know about. And then it is also very 251 00:11:40,420 --> 00:11:43,030 personal book. So I guess like, where did you choose to kind of 252 00:11:43,030 --> 00:11:45,640 draw those boundaries? Like, was there stuff that you chose not 253 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,640 to include? Like, how did you like, how did you choose what to 254 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:49,720 include from the history? 255 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,850 Melissa Thompson: Well this is why it was so hard. Because it 256 00:11:51,850 --> 00:11:56,050 was it was so much information and the research, I loved the 257 00:11:56,050 --> 00:11:57,910 research because there were a lot of things that I kind of 258 00:11:57,910 --> 00:12:01,720 knew, almost by hearsay, and then to go and find them, like 259 00:12:01,750 --> 00:12:04,900 in kind of the like contemporaneous text was mind 260 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:07,210 blowing, it was it was like, Oh, my God it was like striking 261 00:12:07,210 --> 00:12:10,810 gold. And then I had to, I had, like, you know, collate all that 262 00:12:10,810 --> 00:12:13,900 information and then put it into it, put it into an essay, and, 263 00:12:14,170 --> 00:12:16,420 and also I've been talking about, you know, who gets to 264 00:12:16,420 --> 00:12:19,900 write the history? It was, you know, like, was it is the 265 00:12:19,930 --> 00:12:24,760 victors that get to...I put this anatto in, but it's almost like 266 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:25,210 gone.... 267 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,930 Lucy Dearlove: Oh, is that what that smell is? Yes, it almost 268 00:12:28,930 --> 00:12:33,430 smells like Sichuan peppercorn. Yeah. It's like a, like a very 269 00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:34,030 fragrant. 270 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:40,030 Melissa Thompson: Yes. It's sort of the oil went red and then 271 00:12:40,030 --> 00:12:43,630 now, I think scos we've been talking so long it's lost it's 272 00:12:43,630 --> 00:12:45,880 colour, yeah, I've not seen that before.. It's kind of I don't 273 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,100 know, like, even as, as a writer, and as a journalist, 274 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,380 it's like, there was it was just the hardest thing I've ever I've 275 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:54,520 ever had to write because it was, it was a series of essays. 276 00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:57,940 Yeah. Then also that had to stand alone, but then also sort 277 00:12:57,940 --> 00:13:00,730 of interplay with each other. Yeah. And so I think I just, you 278 00:13:00,730 --> 00:13:03,730 know, I, like, you know, when you're, when you're a writer, 279 00:13:03,730 --> 00:13:06,730 you get quite good at sort of, like having to be brutal to get 280 00:13:06,730 --> 00:13:09,550 something down to a word count. And so then it was just a case 281 00:13:09,550 --> 00:13:12,400 of like, as I reread it, like, you know, however, many millions 282 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,790 of times I read those words, like, is this adding anything to 283 00:13:15,790 --> 00:13:18,880 the story? Or is it adding, like, like, because everything, 284 00:13:18,940 --> 00:13:21,670 in my opinion, added something, but it was like, What can I take 285 00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:24,430 out? You know, like, again, sorry, I started saying that 286 00:13:24,430 --> 00:13:26,680 about who gets to write the history? A lot of it, you know, 287 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,920 the indigenous Jamaicans didn't have a written language. Yeah, 288 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,130 so, and yeah, there are a few artifacts...I mean bizarrely in 289 00:13:33,130 --> 00:13:35,860 the Horniman they've got but I'm not sure where it is, but it's a 290 00:13:35,860 --> 00:13:40,390 Taino thing for extracting the juice from cassava. grated 291 00:13:40,390 --> 00:13:45,250 cassava for the bammy. I've got bammy by the way. We were gonna 292 00:13:45,250 --> 00:13:48,190 have fried fish Escovitch but then I couldn't go to the fish 293 00:13:48,190 --> 00:13:48,640 manga. 294 00:13:49,060 --> 00:13:50,560 Oh, great. I've never had bammy before. 295 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,170 Okay, so I wouldn't normally serve it with this but it's 296 00:13:53,170 --> 00:13:57,100 quite nice. So it's just soaking in. In coconut milk. Cool. These 297 00:13:57,100 --> 00:14:00,760 are I bought them back from Jamaica. It's amazing. I went to 298 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,370 go and see bammy. Did you see in the in the book the bit about 299 00:14:03,370 --> 00:14:09,520 the bammy? Yeah. I've got one more left and this little fly 300 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:16,000 from Jamaica! It's like Jurassic Park or something! 301 00:14:19,510 --> 00:14:24,040 Lucy Dearlove: Better not let it defrost. Just in case. 302 00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:26,290 Why did you call it Motherland? 303 00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:28,910 Melissa Thompson: Well, I wanted to call it Fatherland at first. 304 00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:32,210 Okay. And then and then Kate was like, Oh...it was a working 305 00:14:32,210 --> 00:14:34,910 title. And I went to quit fatherland, and Kate was like, 306 00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:36,620 That's a bit weird why don't you just call it motherland. I was 307 00:14:36,620 --> 00:14:41,120 like, Okay. And then afterwards, like months later, and I was 308 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,550 like, oh no, because Fatherland, cos that's where my dad's from 309 00:14:43,550 --> 00:14:46,460 and she was like, oh right! But I hadn't explained at the time 310 00:14:46,490 --> 00:14:51,230 and then also I think motherland as well, because it's like, it's 311 00:14:51,290 --> 00:14:55,070 it's the Motherland you don't I mean, and it's like, it's, I 312 00:14:55,070 --> 00:14:58,820 think, like this idea of, of like giving life but that like, 313 00:14:59,450 --> 00:15:02,270 I don't know I think especially with Jamaica's history it's kind 314 00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:06,380 of it was so like a lot of it'a so violent, so brutal, but I 315 00:15:06,380 --> 00:15:08,060 don't know like I think motherland almost sounds quite 316 00:15:08,060 --> 00:15:12,380 optimistic. And kind of, like life life like life giving 317 00:15:12,380 --> 00:15:15,950 really. And, you know, I think despite everything people 318 00:15:15,950 --> 00:15:19,100 survived, like people survived what what the Europeans were 319 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:22,550 doing to them? And I think it's like a trice. It's a, it's a 320 00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:23,000 triumph. 321 00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:26,690 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, that makes sense. I wondered if it was a 322 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:31,580 nod to because when Britain colonised Jamaica, they caught 323 00:15:31,610 --> 00:15:34,190 they called itself its motherland, right? It was known 324 00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:38,660 as the motherland. And that was really fucked up. So I did also 325 00:15:38,660 --> 00:15:41,240 feel like that's kind of an interesting little ironic nod. 326 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:43,790 And that kind of ties into what you're saying that like survival 327 00:15:43,790 --> 00:15:47,060 through that, like, despite being given this, like, 328 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:48,530 inappropriate mother. 329 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,600 Melissa Thompson: yes. I mean, it's not. And then people came 330 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,150 here thinking that people are gonna be though, like, greeting 331 00:15:53,150 --> 00:15:54,860 them with open arms. And 332 00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:56,540 Lucy Dearlove: yeah, which is kind of the most horrible, 333 00:15:56,570 --> 00:15:58,790 almost not the most horrible thing about it all, but just 334 00:15:58,790 --> 00:16:02,300 such another horrible detail? Yes. Yes. About the how they 335 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:03,230 were misled over that. 336 00:16:03,230 --> 00:16:04,850 Melissa Thompson: Yeah. And people just like spitting at 337 00:16:04,850 --> 00:16:07,160 them in the street and stuff like that. And it's crazy. You 338 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,260 know, I wish I could have had that conversation with my 339 00:16:09,260 --> 00:16:11,630 grandparents, whether they would have told me I don't know. But 340 00:16:11,750 --> 00:16:15,260 yeah, about what it was really, like, I'm so glad I got to 341 00:16:15,260 --> 00:16:18,320 write, I got to write this book. Like, I'm sorry, I still find it 342 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,410 kind of a bit mad, that I got to write it. But I'm so glad that I 343 00:16:21,410 --> 00:16:27,110 did. Because just what I've learned, and and you know, these 344 00:16:27,110 --> 00:16:32,810 things that you kind of take for you sort of not that I've taken 345 00:16:32,810 --> 00:16:35,060 for granted, but things that I've sort of thought, oh, maybe 346 00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:38,060 you know, like, I think that to have a bit of authority about 347 00:16:38,060 --> 00:16:41,420 something is just quite nice. A lot of things that I thought 348 00:16:41,420 --> 00:16:45,410 were the case and be able to actually well, yeah, they were 349 00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:47,060 the case. And I've got the evidence. I mean, the whole 350 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,050 narrative around indigenous people in the Americas. And, you 351 00:16:51,050 --> 00:16:55,310 know, I grew up thinking it was just all because of, like 352 00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:58,790 diseases that people didn't have immunity to. And while that was 353 00:16:58,790 --> 00:17:01,700 true, like the Spanish were horrific, like there was 354 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:03,719 Lucy Dearlove: never heard that either. 355 00:17:05,550 --> 00:17:07,680 Melissa Thompson: And, I mean, you were asking about, like, 356 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:13,590 what to include what to put in, I could have kept on going with 357 00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:16,980 examples of what they did. But I had to just kind of like Stop 358 00:17:16,980 --> 00:17:20,730 it, you know, because it's just like, it's just, it's a bit 359 00:17:20,730 --> 00:17:23,610 much. And this is where, you know, I like to have another 360 00:17:23,610 --> 00:17:29,850 book about I don't know, I guess I'm not sure that anyone is 361 00:17:29,850 --> 00:17:33,000 going to want to include any any more of that into into a cookery 362 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,890 book, but to be able to add any more of the history. Because 363 00:17:37,890 --> 00:17:41,310 it's kind of, I guess, there will be other elements that 364 00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:45,720 people will that people maybe want to focus on. And I think 365 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,060 sometimes less is more, right? Because, because also I don't 366 00:17:48,060 --> 00:17:50,190 want people to become desensitized to it. So it's just 367 00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:53,280 like, right. Here's like, here's, I hope this is enough. 368 00:17:53,460 --> 00:17:57,360 Take it and, you know, because because otherwise, I think it 369 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:01,980 just becomes a bit. Yeah, like it's just actually, ultimately 370 00:18:01,980 --> 00:18:05,670 this is a cookbook. Yeah, a cookbook with a with a history. 371 00:18:05,730 --> 00:18:07,710 And yeah. 372 00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:11,320 Lucy Dearlove: Did you always know you wanted it to have that 373 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,480 much history in it? Was that very much part of the pitch? 374 00:18:14,020 --> 00:18:17,860 Melissa Thompson: Yeah, yeah, totally. And yeah, like that was 375 00:18:17,860 --> 00:18:24,370 really important to me. I'm sorry, this is taking...I always 376 00:18:24,370 --> 00:18:24,730 do this. 377 00:18:25,090 --> 00:18:26,770 Lucy Dearlove: This always happens when I record with 378 00:18:26,770 --> 00:18:29,140 people cooking, it just ends up completely derailing the 379 00:18:29,140 --> 00:18:31,630 process. Entirely. My responsibility 380 00:18:32,530 --> 00:18:33,970 Melissa Thompson: is because it's me trying to multitask, 381 00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:35,110 which is just my Yeah, 382 00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:36,970 Lucy Dearlove: it's you trying to answer like quite in depth 383 00:18:36,970 --> 00:18:41,830 questions while also making a recipe. So we've got the we've 384 00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:43,420 got the corn in the pan now though. 385 00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:44,980 Melissa Thompson: Yeah, so the corn 's sizzling, I'm trying to 386 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,530 like, try and get a bit of colour to that. And then I'm 387 00:18:47,530 --> 00:18:50,950 gonna take the kernels off, and then I'm about to like, devein 388 00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:52,090 these prawns? 389 00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:56,500 Lucy Dearlove: Okay. And they're beautiful big prawns 390 00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:58,240 Melissa Thompson: Yeah, they're right on No, yeah, they come 391 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,100 from they come from the supermarket, unfortunately. 392 00:19:00,310 --> 00:19:06,370 Lucy Dearlove: Oh, throw them out. Something that really 393 00:19:06,370 --> 00:19:09,820 struck me when I was reading the book was that it feels like and 394 00:19:09,820 --> 00:19:12,070 please correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like there's a very 395 00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:16,510 strong oral tradition in Jamaican foods. How do you go 396 00:19:16,510 --> 00:19:18,760 about making that translation? 397 00:19:18,990 --> 00:19:24,210 Melissa Thompson: Oh man. Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you asked me 398 00:19:24,210 --> 00:19:27,960 this, because I think it's, it's, it's quite an important 399 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,350 thing. Like there's a lot of talk at the moment with recipes, 400 00:19:31,380 --> 00:19:35,670 especially I think, sort of recipes from like, like from 401 00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:40,440 across the Caribbean, I think across Africa, across South or 402 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,070 in fact across all of Asia about how like you know, trying to get 403 00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:47,010 recipes from from typically your mom your grandma because it's 404 00:19:47,010 --> 00:19:52,020 usually the women right? And, and this idea of people being 405 00:19:52,020 --> 00:19:56,700 like, oh, you know, you do a handful of this and or like a 406 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:58,890 pinch of this and it's like...what a handful like my 407 00:19:58,890 --> 00:20:01,980 hands are different sizes and It's like, and it's almost 408 00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:04,560 framed in this, like, with with this frustration, but actually, 409 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,950 I think it's the most beautiful thing because it's, it's that 410 00:20:07,950 --> 00:20:12,270 connection to that person. And, and also it makes cooking like 411 00:20:12,270 --> 00:20:15,210 an intuitive process rather than kind of a prescriptive process 412 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:21,810 process. And, you know, I guess we lose that. And like, over 413 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,470 over time, and as kind of generations, I guess, get, I 414 00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:27,630 don't know, this, like kind of less of this, like the family 415 00:20:27,630 --> 00:20:31,050 unit that sort of spans generations. But and so I think 416 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,790 actually, the kind of the oral tradition is is really lovely. 417 00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:38,640 And, and it's not when my when my grandma taught me how to make 418 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,300 the curry chicken recipe. She didn't use any, any any things. 419 00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:44,310 It was just like, you just put this like, you know, you'd like 420 00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:46,500 to sort of sprinkle a curry powder and you just, you can 421 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,020 tell that it's right. I mean, when I was doing my pop up and I 422 00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:51,300 was doing like I was doing like a lot of karage chicken like I 423 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:54,480 never wrote the recipe I could just smell it and know when it 424 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,510 was Yeah. And I dread to think how many, like, you know, like 425 00:20:57,510 --> 00:21:00,450 tons of chicken thighs when I cooked over the years. And I 426 00:21:00,450 --> 00:21:02,700 could just smell when it was right when the combination was 427 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:04,740 right. And I think usually what that was saying about Maureen 428 00:21:04,740 --> 00:21:07,530 down in Brixton. Now she doesn't like none of her recipes are 429 00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:11,820 written down. And yeah, she's cooking for service. And she's 430 00:21:11,820 --> 00:21:14,610 also cooking for like catering and stuff. And yeah, recipes. 431 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,040 None of our recipes are written down. Because it's never been 432 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,100 part of her thing to write it down. Like she just know, she 433 00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:23,700 can tell she can look at it by the smell of it. Yeah. And I 434 00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,310 think you kind of lose that. It's like with like, writing a 435 00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:30,060 jerk recipe down...in the jerk recipe. And like if you have 436 00:21:30,090 --> 00:21:31,770 pimento...let me see if I've got some... 437 00:21:36,810 --> 00:21:38,640 Lucy Dearlove: Is this your spice cupboard? 438 00:21:38,670 --> 00:21:40,380 Melissa Thompson: Yes. Yeah, I bought back. 439 00:21:40,890 --> 00:21:43,170 Lucy Dearlove: Oh, wow. Yes. Oh, very organized, very organized. 440 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,610 Melissa Thompson: I got a label maker for Christmas. Oh, great. 441 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,870 It's like the best thing I've ever received. So these pimento 442 00:21:49,870 --> 00:21:54,310 berries are from... the smell has kind of like lessened a bit. 443 00:21:55,390 --> 00:21:58,030 Yeah, that's Oh, wow. And but then you smell this? And I think 444 00:21:58,030 --> 00:22:00,130 this is from this country, I bought this for a recipe. Oh, 445 00:22:00,130 --> 00:22:02,470 yes. No, it's completely different. It's all spice 446 00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:05,560 because people were like, oh, so I bought back so much from 447 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,950 Jamaica and the car just stunk of cloves. Because that's why 448 00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:11,740 it's all spice. Right? And because it's like, what cloves 449 00:22:11,740 --> 00:22:14,170 nutmeg, nutmeg and cinnamon, like there are so many different 450 00:22:14,170 --> 00:22:17,380 jerk recipes out there. But then, and some of them call for 451 00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:21,250 like cinnamon and nutmeg. And like, I don't know this for 452 00:22:21,250 --> 00:22:24,940 certain, but I almost think that maybe that was because if you 453 00:22:24,940 --> 00:22:28,060 had pimento, that was that had been, you know, sitting on a 454 00:22:28,060 --> 00:22:30,640 supermarket shelf for a long time it loses those other notes. 455 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,580 Yeah, and so people make it up. So what I've said, in the 456 00:22:33,580 --> 00:22:36,250 cookbook, I'm like smell your pimento. And if you can smell 457 00:22:36,250 --> 00:22:39,700 clove and everything in it, then just have the pimento berries. 458 00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:44,260 But otherwise, add like clove and nutmeg and cinnamon to your 459 00:22:44,290 --> 00:22:46,870 jerk marinade. I mean, it's still gonna taste delicious, 460 00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:51,880 like however people do it. But it's this thing where it's quite 461 00:22:51,940 --> 00:22:58,570 difficult to put something down for definite and it's just the 462 00:22:58,570 --> 00:23:02,110 hope that people will use that as a start off points and, and 463 00:23:02,110 --> 00:23:06,250 adjust it because I mean recipes will have been adjusted forever. 464 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,418 Lucy Dearlove: Of course, I really liked...so it's like a 465 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:14,100 It was just to get around with this this thing. Yeah. 466 00:23:07,463 --> 00:23:10,176 separate little note to the recipe that you're talking about 467 00:23:10,221 --> 00:23:12,662 in the jerk recipe where you write about the using the 468 00:23:12,707 --> 00:23:15,646 different spices if you need to. And I just really liked how that 469 00:23:14,790 --> 00:23:24,390 And that's that's related to the oral tradition as well. Right? 470 00:23:15,691 --> 00:23:18,494 almost gives. It's almost like asking the reader to take a bit 471 00:23:18,539 --> 00:23:21,116 of control, which I think is...you might lose in a sense. 472 00:23:21,161 --> 00:23:23,873 Like, you don't have that much control when you're reading a 473 00:23:23,919 --> 00:23:26,405 recipe or you're cooking a recipe that someone else has 474 00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:29,280 Because that would just be...it might not necessarily be a 475 00:23:26,450 --> 00:23:29,027 written. But it's almost like you're giving permission to 476 00:23:29,072 --> 00:23:32,010 people to be like, make your own call. Yeah, like, yeah, and this 477 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:35,520 problem in Jamaica. So people wouldn't do it. Yes. Or Yes. You 478 00:23:32,056 --> 00:23:34,949 might be how you like it. Yeah, you know, you might find out how 479 00:23:34,994 --> 00:23:37,706 you like it, you might want you might like it with the extra 480 00:23:35,910 --> 00:24:01,230 know, you might know to do that if you've watched people cooking 481 00:23:37,752 --> 00:23:40,509 cloves, like, you know, I really liked that about it, it felt 482 00:23:40,554 --> 00:23:43,267 really unusual. Like I just didn't, I don't know if I'd seen 483 00:23:43,312 --> 00:23:44,940 a note before and I really liked it. 484 00:24:01,260 --> 00:24:05,340 the recipe before. Yes. So it's a way of kind of giving people 485 00:24:05,340 --> 00:24:08,430 that information in like a non prescriptive way. Yeah, I guess. 486 00:24:08,430 --> 00:24:08,610 Yeah, 487 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:11,420 Melissa Thompson: totally. And also, I think whenever people, 488 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,270 you know, if a cook... if they're cooking, a sort of a 489 00:24:14,660 --> 00:24:18,380 nation's dish, a nation's food for the first time, they might 490 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:22,190 not feel that confident, because if elements are unfamiliar, but 491 00:24:22,190 --> 00:24:25,910 then, you know, trying to, I guess guide people to to you 492 00:24:25,910 --> 00:24:29,420 know, how ingredients should taste and use more of your 493 00:24:29,420 --> 00:24:32,300 senses to kind of to get to understand it and to make a 494 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:33,800 judgment call yourself, 495 00:24:34,010 --> 00:24:37,040 Lucy Dearlove: like when you came to be writing down these 496 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,190 recipes that have, you know, a lot of personal significance for 497 00:24:40,190 --> 00:24:44,540 you. Did the format of a written recipe feel adequate for 498 00:24:44,540 --> 00:24:47,360 translating kind of what you wanted to say about that recipe? 499 00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:56,630 Melissa Thompson: I think it's, I think this is why I went into 500 00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:59,120 feature writing rather than news because like brevity has never 501 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:01,730 been my strong point. I think almost I want to be like, Oh, 502 00:25:01,730 --> 00:25:03,980 but you know, it's like this, then it's like that. And I 503 00:25:03,980 --> 00:25:07,460 think, I don't know, maybe like it'd be, it'd be quite nice to 504 00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:09,170 do it as an audiobook or something where I can be like, 505 00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:11,600 but you know, there's sort of so many 506 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:12,800 Lucy Dearlove: That would be so nice. 507 00:25:15,030 --> 00:25:16,890 Melissa Thompson: You know, I mean, just like be able to. 508 00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:23,880 Yeah, I think it's I think there are a lot of reasons why sort of 509 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,990 maybe that there have been fewer books written about Jamaican 510 00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:30,870 foods. I mean, mainly it's because the gatekeepers haven't 511 00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:34,560 permitted it. But then also, I think that it's actually the 512 00:25:34,590 --> 00:25:36,990 biggest reason I also think there is a bit of a thing from 513 00:25:36,990 --> 00:25:39,240 within within communities. There's like a kind of 514 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,040 understandable protectiveness about it. And I think actually, 515 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,560 for a lot of the people who are doing cookbooks for the first 516 00:25:46,620 --> 00:25:49,770 not for the first time it we're doing cookbooks. I mean, there's 517 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,570 Do you know, Maria? Maria Bradford? Shwen Shwen? 518 00:25:55,140 --> 00:25:56,190 Lucy Dearlove: Oh, no, I don't know her 519 00:25:56,490 --> 00:25:59,520 Melissa Thompson: Oh, God. So I spoke to her for something. And 520 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,590 she's, so she's doing a cookbook about she's in Sierra Leonean 521 00:26:04,590 --> 00:26:07,650 cookbook is coming out next year. And I'm so excited for it. 522 00:26:07,950 --> 00:26:09,930 Like we talked about the responsibility that comes with 523 00:26:09,930 --> 00:26:12,780 it, because it's one cookbook, I mean, this is the thing, my 524 00:26:12,780 --> 00:26:16,320 book, it's one cookbook for a cuisine that is that is like 525 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,740 huge with so many different influences. When there are 20, 526 00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:22,200 it doesn't matter. But when there are fewer, it does matter. 527 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,540 And I don't think there's been...so Maria was saying that 528 00:26:24,540 --> 00:26:27,900 she doesn't think there's there's been any Sierra Leonian 529 00:26:27,930 --> 00:26:31,320 cookbooks published in the UK. Wow. And so like, the pressure 530 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:36,000 for that also, she's so kind of, she's so she's so brilliant. She 531 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,880 was like, you know, and she was like, you know, I will like 532 00:26:38,910 --> 00:26:42,210 fucking buy a book about like, Italian food and I will fucking 533 00:26:42,210 --> 00:26:44,610 go out of my way. You know, she was like, it's about time that 534 00:26:44,610 --> 00:26:46,980 you fucking did it with our, with our food as well. Go and 535 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:50,280 find cassava leaf. Go and find potato leaf like speak to people 536 00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:53,010 find out like, you know, like, explore go and fucking get it 537 00:26:53,010 --> 00:26:55,620 because that people have bottarga ina fucking recipe no 538 00:26:55,620 --> 00:26:59,430 one billet like, like, you know, things are what's the that's an 539 00:26:59,430 --> 00:27:04,110 eye. But then you have Yeah, like color cassava leaf and 540 00:27:04,110 --> 00:27:07,020 stuff like that. Like and people just, um, I can't you know, 541 00:27:07,020 --> 00:27:09,450 like, what, what can I use instead, can I use spinach just 542 00:27:09,450 --> 00:27:13,950 like, and I think as people who enjoy foods, there's like an 543 00:27:13,950 --> 00:27:17,790 assumption that they are going to be kind of inquisitive. And 544 00:27:17,790 --> 00:27:20,220 like, oh, yeah, all of the things I think that make people 545 00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:24,000 interested in food. So actually go and be inquisitive and go, 546 00:27:24,030 --> 00:27:25,770 you know, it's not just about reading a book, but it's about 547 00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:28,560 going and actually immersing yourself in that culture. Going 548 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,580 to go into the shops and, and just familiarizing and people 549 00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:36,180 like, the thing about one thing I can say about foods and food 550 00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:40,410 people is that they love sharing, and, you know, talking 551 00:27:40,410 --> 00:27:43,560 to people about stuff, and it's just like, it's just, it's it's 552 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,180 yeah, it's like it's quite exciting. 553 00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:47,880 Lucy Dearlove: And so in the book there, I mean, you've 554 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,060 mentioned Maureen already, but kind of there's a lot of recipes 555 00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:52,980 in the book that haven't just come from your family. They've 556 00:27:52,980 --> 00:27:56,910 come from sort of like chosen family. Yes. So could you talk a 557 00:27:56,910 --> 00:27:59,910 bit about the recipes you've included in the book from 558 00:27:59,910 --> 00:28:01,650 different people that you've learned over the years? 559 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,480 Melissa Thompson: So yeah, so it's like a combination? Well, 560 00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:08,070 and some things are like, so I moved to London for uni at 20. 561 00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:11,070 And so that kind of, because okay, I guess everyone's got 562 00:28:11,070 --> 00:28:14,310 their repertoire, right. So we'd have, we'd have our thing. 563 00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:15,800 Lucy Dearlove: And then what was your repertoire? 564 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,460 Melissa Thompson: Well, it was like, carry go. Curry chicken. 565 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:26,340 oxtail. Like patties. Because if you go to like, if you go to 566 00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:30,510 like a sort of any kind of, like celebration, or like funeral or 567 00:28:30,510 --> 00:28:32,250 something, like there's always gonna be the same thing. Your 568 00:28:32,250 --> 00:28:37,290 fried fish, fried chicken. Ackee and saltfish, obviously, all 569 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,640 different dumplings. And then you kind of add to it as you go. 570 00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:45,030 I was like, you know, we're coming to London and eating at 571 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,460 sort of, like, invariably takeaways, yeah, because there 572 00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:53,370 are kind of loads of Caribbean restaurants. Yeah, restaurants. 573 00:28:53,670 --> 00:28:57,060 Yeah. And then your repertoire kind of, sort of widens further. 574 00:28:57,060 --> 00:29:02,280 But then also, I think, I like Akwasi Brenya-Mensa, I did a 575 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,450 talk with him in in, in Belfast. And he was saying that when 576 00:29:06,450 --> 00:29:09,810 you're, when you're cooking cuisine outside of the country 577 00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:11,910 of origin, you're only ever doing a version of it. And I 578 00:29:11,910 --> 00:29:13,260 thought that was really I thought that was really 579 00:29:13,260 --> 00:29:18,870 interesting. Way to, yeah, to view it because it's, it's, it's 580 00:29:18,870 --> 00:29:22,260 kind of true, right? And it's like, I mean, going back to the 581 00:29:22,260 --> 00:29:24,480 whole ingredients as well and being true to ingredients. I 582 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,920 think, as much as I think it's important that I think I would 583 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,860 say with like talking about Sierra Leonean cuisine, there 584 00:29:31,860 --> 00:29:34,590 are certain dishes that can only be made with cassava leaf, 585 00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:36,570 right? You can't there isn't there is no substitution, you're 586 00:29:36,570 --> 00:29:39,480 not gonna get the flavour for that. But then there are other 587 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,530 things where, you know, I don't want people especially if people 588 00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:45,840 can't afford it, like I don't want money to be something 589 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,030 that's going to... so if something Yeah, you know, it's 590 00:29:48,030 --> 00:29:51,750 something can be bought cheap or like, rather than someone having 591 00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:54,480 to go out and buy ingredients that they might not use all the 592 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,120 time. Like, is there anything there are some things that you 593 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,970 have to eat like you can only make this if you if you use this 594 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,870 then having that kind of flexibility. The the Scotch 595 00:30:03,870 --> 00:30:12,480 bonnet fumes! For me the whole idea of like decolonizing like 596 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,030 food writing and stuff is moving away from this kind of like 597 00:30:15,030 --> 00:30:20,550 Francophone kind of, like, on my, on the cookbook sheet I was 598 00:30:20,550 --> 00:30:28,290 with, with Melek. And so it was like Benjamin Ebuehi the was the 599 00:30:28,650 --> 00:30:34,050 economist and Melek was her assistant. It was amazing. 600 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,160 Because obviously, Patsy was taking the pictures...Patricia 601 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,360 Niven. Yes. Yeah. And so kind of, and I really like it. I 602 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,550 really wanted to like, because I think Patricia, Patsy, Benji and 603 00:30:50,910 --> 00:30:54,180 Jen, Kay, who did the props, like their aesthetic is sort of 604 00:30:54,180 --> 00:30:57,060 like a soul, sort of separate aesthetics are so complimentary, 605 00:30:57,060 --> 00:30:59,310 that they've never worked together. And so then they kind 606 00:30:59,310 --> 00:31:02,190 of yeah, all came together. And it was just, it was such a 607 00:31:02,190 --> 00:31:05,700 dream. But then Melek and I were talking about just like the 608 00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:07,620 language and that kind of like, you know, we're not we're not 609 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,110 julienning our vegetables. We are cutting them into matchday 610 00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:14,670 matchsticks. And it's this, and I read this thing, I don't think 611 00:31:14,670 --> 00:31:17,130 I think it was true about this person. It's like the language 612 00:31:17,130 --> 00:31:18,870 and how language can be a massive barrier when you're 613 00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:21,240 talking about food because you just don't get it. And and there 614 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,990 was this thing about toss, like toss a salad. So someone 615 00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:27,930 literally tossed the salad like, because they just didn't I mean, 616 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,020 what does that what does that mean to toss a, you know, to 617 00:31:31,020 --> 00:31:34,230 toss a salad or, and as a restaurant writer, it's so easy 618 00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:38,250 to, to use this like to repeat this language. Because when you 619 00:31:38,250 --> 00:31:40,710 get to understand it, but you know, I still don't know what 620 00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:42,990 broil means. I know that's an American term, but I don't know 621 00:31:42,990 --> 00:31:43,530 what it means. 622 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,440 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, I hadn't even thought about julienne as 623 00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,000 like a bastion of French cookery. 624 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,550 Melissa Thompson: But yeah. To saute, All of it, like all of 625 00:31:50,550 --> 00:31:51,330 it, you know? Yeah. 626 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,640 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. I think it's really, it's really 627 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,240 interesting to talk about, like decolonizing work in that 628 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,520 context, because I think sometimes people kind of hear 629 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,070 the word and they assume it's going to be this huge, like, 630 00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:05,610 dramatic process of reckoning. And it's like, yeah, it should 631 00:32:05,610 --> 00:32:08,580 be that as well. But I will say like, a lot of it does come down 632 00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:12,240 to these very simple things. That might not seem that big on 633 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,300 the surface of it, but actually, go so deep, we don't even 634 00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:16,830 realise yeah, like the language. 635 00:32:16,860 --> 00:32:19,350 Melissa Thompson: Yes. I mean, to be honest, I don't often 636 00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:22,530 because it's like a word that I hear come up so much these days. 637 00:32:22,530 --> 00:32:25,920 And I try not to use it too much myself, because I think it can 638 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,710 almost, but I'd rather talk about it as like what it is, 639 00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:32,340 rather than naming it. Like it was in practical terms. I know. 640 00:32:32,340 --> 00:32:33,720 Because I've said it sort of now. 641 00:32:33,930 --> 00:32:36,780 Lucy Dearlove: No, but it Yeah, in the context of No, I think 642 00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:37,770 that makes sense. 643 00:32:39,210 --> 00:32:43,260 Melissa Thompson: I'm using bottled lemon juice only for 644 00:32:43,260 --> 00:32:47,880 speed. Yeah. So this is actually say, because you're talking 645 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,900 about Helen Graves. So I cooked from her book over the weekend. 646 00:32:51,930 --> 00:32:54,540 Oh, it's so good. It's so good. Well, it's from hers and 647 00:32:54,540 --> 00:32:55,410 Genevieve Taylor's 648 00:32:55,470 --> 00:32:58,290 Lucy Dearlove: Oh, yeah. So you posted those. Another barbecue 649 00:32:58,290 --> 00:32:58,860 book? Yes, 650 00:32:58,890 --> 00:33:02,610 Melissa Thompson: yes. Is and so this is her charred spring 651 00:33:02,610 --> 00:33:06,150 onion. Salsa. So I'm gonna pour this over the salad 652 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:07,830 Lucy Dearlove: Delicious 653 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,120 Melissa Thompson: this is just made up basically. 654 00:33:12,210 --> 00:33:14,070 Lucy Dearlove: So we've got diced red onion, diced 655 00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:18,870 cucumbers, some parsley and you've got the corn that you've 656 00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:22,470 charred and then like cut off the cob and this charred spring 657 00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:23,490 onion salsa. 658 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,470 Melissa Thompson: Thank you very much. Okay, well, I'll do this. 659 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,140 And then I'm gonna attempt those pina coladas would be nice if I 660 00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:32,100 did it at the same time. 661 00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:35,910 Lucy Dearlove: Oh, that's right. Honestly, like I just I can't 662 00:33:35,910 --> 00:33:38,250 express enough my gratitude for you cooking in this weather. 663 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,830 Melissa Thompson: I love I love it. And now that I've got a bit 664 00:33:43,830 --> 00:33:46,950 of time to think I'm I'm really relishing. 665 00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:49,680 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, cuz cooking must have just felt like worked. 666 00:33:50,190 --> 00:33:51,120 Well, it was work. Yeah. 667 00:33:52,110 --> 00:33:56,370 Melissa Thompson: I just didn't, I didn't cook really. And so 668 00:33:56,370 --> 00:33:59,400 I've just got back into I mean whenever you know people talk 669 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,260 about like cooking for cooking for joy and stuff. And if you 670 00:34:04,260 --> 00:34:06,510 don't if you're not happy then like it sort of translates into 671 00:34:06,510 --> 00:34:11,310 the food and I really believe in that and when I, after I had my 672 00:34:11,310 --> 00:34:14,970 daughter when I was pregnant with her I stopped doing my pop 673 00:34:14,970 --> 00:34:18,450 up and then I didn't really cook for a long time because I I just 674 00:34:18,450 --> 00:34:21,600 didn't really had I didn't have I was just I wasn't really 675 00:34:21,990 --> 00:34:25,710 feeling anything and and so then it was actually during lockdown. 676 00:34:25,740 --> 00:34:28,230 I started cooking again, so it was really nice to... 677 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,330 Lucy Dearlove: Does Kate cook? 678 00:34:31,660 --> 00:34:33,760 Melissa Thompson: Yes, she does. But she always says she doesn't 679 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,730 even get a chance anymore. But that's absolute bollocks cos 680 00:34:37,390 --> 00:34:40,750 she's really busy. So she gets home quite late. We will I think 681 00:34:40,750 --> 00:34:43,120 we both moan about stuff, but then actually wouldn't really 682 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,360 want it to be that different. 683 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,820 Lucy Dearlove: classic I think that's that's a sign that it's a 684 00:34:48,820 --> 00:34:52,060 good balance. Yeah, yeah, you can both have a moan but 685 00:34:52,090 --> 00:34:52,990 ultimately, 686 00:34:53,350 --> 00:34:54,070 Melissa Thompson: Do you cook a lot? 687 00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:57,660 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, I'm the cook in my household and Rory, 688 00:34:57,660 --> 00:35:02,340 my husband is...And this is this has been a sort of bone of 689 00:35:02,340 --> 00:35:07,800 contention over the years that I'm a real backseat cook. So he 690 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,400 really understandably does not like that, we've kind of got to 691 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,210 the point where like, he will cook but I'm not allowed to come 692 00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:21,300 and quote unquote, help. I had just I just have to stay away 693 00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:22,350 and then do the clearing up. 694 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,270 Melissa Thompson: Why? Cuz you're literally saying stuff to 695 00:35:24,270 --> 00:35:24,630 him. 696 00:35:25,230 --> 00:35:28,500 Lucy Dearlove: Because I'll just be like, maybe like, I think a 697 00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:32,280 drop of water while you're cooking those or like, it might 698 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,350 just be better if he's like, NO, get out. And that means that 699 00:35:37,830 --> 00:35:41,100 sometimes he makes something and I would have cooked it 700 00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:43,470 differently. And I just have to I just have to shut the fuck up. 701 00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:48,060 Yes, yes. Yes. Also, it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't 702 00:35:48,060 --> 00:35:51,030 matter. No, not. Not everything has to be perfect. Also, my 703 00:35:51,030 --> 00:35:55,710 cooking isn't perfect. But yeah, yeah, I do really I do really 704 00:35:55,710 --> 00:35:56,520 enjoy cooking. 705 00:35:57,830 --> 00:35:59,540 Melissa Thompson: When...Kate made when when we were first 706 00:35:59,540 --> 00:36:02,900 dating, actually. And she made this. She made this teriyaki 707 00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:06,410 salmon. And so she still talks about this about my reaction to 708 00:36:06,410 --> 00:36:09,290 it. I was like, did it come from a packet? And I meant that in 709 00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:14,750 a....cos it was so good. Yeah, it was really good. She, she's 710 00:36:14,750 --> 00:36:16,310 never like, let me live that down. 711 00:36:17,090 --> 00:36:19,160 Lucy Dearlove: Ya know, I can see how that's very well, meant 712 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,800 because it's like saying, you know, this is really good 713 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,760 packet. You can never be for me. You can never be Heinz ketchup. 714 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,890 So yeah, if someone made homemade ketchup and it tasted 715 00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:30,620 like Heinz, I'd be like, Oh my god. It was like Heinz. 716 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:32,720 Melissa Thompson: So you're like a Heinz for ketchup? 717 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,080 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, that's my favourite. I accept no 718 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,270 substitutes. But Hellmans mayonnaise. Or kewpie. Yeah, um, 719 00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:42,290 depending on what it's for. 720 00:36:42,290 --> 00:36:45,380 Melissa Thompson: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm because I like 721 00:36:45,410 --> 00:36:48,830 ketchup. I can be a bit more. I think I used to be quite like, 722 00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:52,190 sort of strict about it. But then there are a few others that 723 00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:54,140 I accept, like I quite like a Tiptree ketchip/ 724 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,470 Lucy Dearlove: saying oh, I have that one is good. Actually. I 725 00:36:57,470 --> 00:37:00,440 have tried that. Yeah, but yeah, I haven't gotten like a fancy 726 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,510 cafe. Okay, nice. Yeah. Are you a ketchup or brown sauce? Oh, 727 00:37:06,290 --> 00:37:07,520 Melissa Thompson: in a household. It will definitely be 728 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,820 ketchup. I like I like brown sauce. But no laughing like he 729 00:37:10,820 --> 00:37:15,050 has become obsessed with with ketchup. She's so fickle. She's 730 00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:17,660 gonna get like there was a time where I know she couldn't get 731 00:37:17,660 --> 00:37:21,980 enough. And now she Yeah, now she likes. I know. She's sort of 732 00:37:21,980 --> 00:37:26,330 a bit nice. I might drink some ketchup. Okay, do you want any 733 00:37:26,330 --> 00:37:27,020 rum in this? 734 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,010 Lucy Dearlove: why not? It's 735 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,220 Melissa Thompson: it's after 12 Exactly it's practically evening 736 00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:35,480 practically Yeah. 737 00:37:36,410 --> 00:37:38,330 Lucy Dearlove: Gotta take all the all the help we can get in 738 00:37:38,330 --> 00:37:45,980 this weather as well. Yes. Oh my god. Amazing. So is that just 739 00:37:45,980 --> 00:37:49,190 pineapple blended with coconut milk and then some ice? 740 00:37:51,950 --> 00:37:53,600 Melissa Thompson: I didn't have any decoration unfortunately. 741 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:55,850 Lucy Dearlove: I hink I'll live 742 00:37:56,780 --> 00:37:58,310 Melissa Thompson: Ok so bammy and then I think we're done 743 00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:58,760 aren't we 744 00:37:58,970 --> 00:38:05,060 Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. So you've just fried that. 745 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,500 Melissa Thompson: Yeah so it's, I soak it in coconut milk. And 746 00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:16,070 then and then I fry it. Yes. I love it. I love it so much like 747 00:38:16,070 --> 00:38:21,860 going to see the bammy place. It was so cool. It was always the 748 00:38:21,860 --> 00:38:26,840 dream. So you got red onion, cucumber, the charred corn a bit 749 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,620 of red pepper. And then so parseyand the charred spring 750 00:38:30,620 --> 00:38:32,630 onion salsa from the weekend from Helens book, 751 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,120 Lucy Dearlove: and remind me what's on these poems. 752 00:38:35,390 --> 00:38:40,102 Melissa Thompson: So they're pepper drawn so it's it's like 753 00:38:40,217 --> 00:38:47,000 annato, scotch bonnet, onion, garlic, and a bit of pimento. 754 00:38:48,030 --> 00:38:49,440 Lucy Dearlove: Recipe in Motherland. 755 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:50,850 Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes. 756 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,163 Lucy Dearlove: Thanks so much to Melissa Thompson. Her book, 757 00:39:01,226 --> 00:39:05,208 Motherland is out now. I wanted to make sure that before ending 758 00:39:05,271 --> 00:39:08,620 this episode, I just said explicitly what a force for 759 00:39:08,684 --> 00:39:12,286 change Melissa has been and continues to be in food. As I 760 00:39:12,349 --> 00:39:16,077 made the point early on in our conversation, she tirelessly 761 00:39:16,141 --> 00:39:20,122 uplifts other people within the industry. As her platform grows 762 00:39:20,185 --> 00:39:23,534 she only seems to do this with more enthusiasm. She's 763 00:39:23,598 --> 00:39:27,516 uncompromising, but she's also somehow enduringly positive and 764 00:39:27,579 --> 00:39:31,434 optimistic in her approach. I can't wait to see what she does 765 00:39:31,497 --> 00:39:35,099 in the future. This was the third episode in this month's 766 00:39:35,162 --> 00:39:39,144 Micro Series about personal food writing. You can listen to the 767 00:39:39,207 --> 00:39:43,188 other episodes, one with Rebecca May Johnson and Angela Hui and 768 00:39:43,251 --> 00:39:47,233 one with Thea Lenarduzzi on the podcast feed now. And there's a 769 00:39:47,296 --> 00:39:51,340 fourth bonus Patreon episode to come which is specifically about 770 00:39:51,403 --> 00:39:55,258 recipes in personal writing. Melissa and I talked a bit about 771 00:39:55,322 --> 00:39:59,303 this in this episode. So there's more from her and there's more 772 00:39:59,366 --> 00:40:03,221 from it. Everyone else has been the series so far. Like it is 773 00:40:03,284 --> 00:40:06,570 listener funded. So patrons subscriptions are really 774 00:40:06,633 --> 00:40:10,362 important. You can sign up patreon.com/leckerpodcast. Music 775 00:40:10,425 --> 00:40:14,343 is by Blue Dot sessions and you haven't got long to wait until 776 00:40:14,406 --> 00:40:18,388 the next like episode. There's a trailer coming later this week 777 00:40:18,451 --> 00:40:21,990 for the new series that's launching very very soon. Make 778 00:40:22,053 --> 00:40:26,034 sure you're subscribed for that and I will be back in your feed 779 00:40:26,098 --> 00:40:26,730 very soon.