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Alexei Sayle: Hello everybody.

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Uh, welcome to the 30th edition
of the Electrical podcast.

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Uh, I'm abroad at the moment,
which is why I'm using the built

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in microphone on the my computer.

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So it might sound, not sound as
perfect as, uh, usually does.

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I'm also recording this on a momentous
day when, um, uh, there's trust has

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just resigned a few minutes ago, but
also, uh, the first episode of, uh,

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like sales imaginary mage past Season
four goes out this evening and it's a

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fucking nuisance that she's resigned.

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Cause there are a.

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, Uh, do you talk about her?

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Uh, yeah, there's a couple of references.

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Yeah.

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And I dunno what we're gonna, not in
this episode actually, luckily, but, uh,

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we may either have to, either Viji is
gonna have to make a statement saying,

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This show was recorded several weeks ago.

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Or we're gonna have to try
and do, uh, an edit ready.

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Sure.

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Um, but it's, uh, it's,
it's, it's me who suffers.

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It's me who suffers most from Liz Truss.

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Well, she'll still technically

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Talal Karkouti: be Prime
Minister for the next seven days,

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Alexei Sayle: right?

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Yeah.

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It's not this episode and next episode,
she'll still be the Prime Minister.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I, I'll, I'll speak to chair of
my producers, see what we can do.

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It's a shame really, cuz we
had one brilliant laugh about.

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And, um, I don't see that we can keep
it in there, but anyway, we will see.

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But, uh, first of all, I would like to,
we have got this, this episode is an

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interview mostly with Richard Sanders,
who, who produced and part directed the

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Al Jazeera series, uh, the Labor Files,
which is all about the second episode.

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He directed the episode, I think
he produced the whole series.

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He directed the second episode, which
is all about what we love most, which is

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internal shenanigans,  within the Labor
Party and, uh, the, uh, right wings.

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Um, Pity Pty Pity Dity , uh, in,
its in all its various, um, forms.

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So I will, I will let the, I will let
the program, I'll let the, you know,

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I'll let the show, uh, talk about that.

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Uh, just, uh, also just to, I wanted
to amplify slightly on, um, an idea

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raised in the, the previous, the Sugar
Foot, uh, podcast, uh, about this idea

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about, uh, well, to recap, really,
I've, well, there's several things.

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I've always had this idea that
I've always, one of the things I've

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always admired about Alcoholics
Anonymous is that it has no, it

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has no policies about anything.

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And also that, um, it's, um, the
people who appointed to leadership

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roles, they don't really have any
power in their, their, they're chains.

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But I always, I could never see
a way that, um, you could apply

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that to conventional politics.

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And then, but now I've come up
with this idea about, I think

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what I'm gonna do is call it.

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Uh, vote for nobody.

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That's my part.

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This is the party I'm proposed
called Vote for Nobody.

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It's based on the idea that the, um,
the largest party in any election

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is so, so say there's a 65%, 70%
turnout, and then the winning party

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gets 30% or 35% of that turnout.

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But nevertheless, the largest constitu,
actually my math might be slightly

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shock here, but the large constituents
is actually people who don't vote.

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So what I'm gonna try and what I would,
I'm proposing is that we, we, uh, we

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activate the non-voting, uh, constituency.

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We say.

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So the, the logo, I think
is a black outline of a.

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Either male nor female in
a, in an entire body suit.

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And, uh, we, we go, we, so we
propose, we, And that's the logo.

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It's just this black and it be like a
dotted, a dotted outline to kind of No,

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no, I think it should just be that, like
a person in a black body suit, basically.

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But just a black.

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Okay.

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And we say to people, vote for nobody,
rather than wasting your vote by not

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voting, use to send a real protest
by voting for, vote for, for nobody.

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So we vote for nobody.

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I, I, I don't, And I, you know, at
the moment, we have no policies.

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You can vote for us.

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If you write wing, you can vote for us.

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If you left wing, it just
means that you're disillusioned

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with the political system.

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And it might be be, I think that
nobody might take their seat in the

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house comments and just sit there in
their, in their black body suit all day

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saying nothing . Which, uh oh, no, no.

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The, the idea is that you put
a random object in their seat.

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Yeah.

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I've, I've changed, I've changed that.

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I've changed that.

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Oh, it's nobody, No,
nobody sits there now.

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. Okay.

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If we win, will you just
leave the seat empty?

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Well, no, or nobody.

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The, the person in the black
body suit sits in that seat.

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Oh, everyone has to
wear one of those suits.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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. Okay.

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I If we, so if we, Yeah, they'd turn
up on their first day in a, in a

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black body suit and just sit there.

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Yeah.

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All day, every day.

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Okay.

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Cuz it needs to, there needs to be
a visual aspect to, Cause I, what

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I like about the random objects
is that on the broadcast of the

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commons meetings, they'll, Yeah.

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You'll see like a lampshade
or a, you know, a Yeah.

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I don't think you get away
with that really, but act good.

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Yeah.

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You have to actually show up as a person,
but there's no rules on what you can wear.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So much far.

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So No, no.

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The the body suit that also
covers your head and face.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And you just like a silhouette of a per.

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Okay.

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Love it.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So that's the idea.

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I'm just putting that out there.

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I'm gonna work on it.

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This is, this is what I feel, you know, I,
I've not, you know, filled in all the gaps

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yet, but, um, uh, this is what I feel.

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This is what my entire life
has been leading towards.

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But now that it comes to the point
where, I mean, it, the, the, we come

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to the problem where, like, encouraging
people who don't vote to actually

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go out and vote, but vote for this

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Richard Sanders: party.

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Cause there are, yeah, there
have been like protest parties

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Alexei Sayle: that you can vote
for, you know, Monster Raven

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Looney or Council, but people still
don't show up to vote for them.

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So how, No, no, You'd have to
know what you, our activists, our

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activists would've to go out into
the community, into the non-voting

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community and urge them to vote.

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Tell them, you know, say, Look,
you know, this is a really

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subversive thing you could do.

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Maybe lay on mini buses.

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Uh, if our, you know, if our crowd
funding goes well lay on mini

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bosses to take people to the polls.

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I just point out to them that this is
a way you, the reason they don't vote

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is because they feel disenfranchised.

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Yeah.

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And they feel, I suppose if you
vote, you know, a politician gets in,

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which is true, some ambitious, um,
deceitful person by large will get in.

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But this, uh, you know, if you use
or vote to not vote as it were, then

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um, you know, nobody will get in.

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And it's, it won't be an
ambitious, deceitful politician.

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It will be, you know, your protest.

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And, and through that outreach you could
get see people engaged in politics,

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you know, they may then Oh, love it.

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We might run, Yeah, we might run soup.

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You know, we might run soup
kitchens on the side or gardening.

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That's great.

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And listeners at home let us
know what you think about nobody.

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Yeah.

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Uh, in the emails, Alexa el

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Richard Sanders: podcast gmail.com

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Alexei Sayle: or tweet us at Alexa podd.

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Instagram is the same.

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Uh, message us on Paton.

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Um, donate to our paton

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Richard Sanders: pat.com/alexa podcast.

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Um, and, and something
else we talked about

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Alexei Sayle: on the last
episode was cowboys and Right.

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Often, often, while we record
interviews, I'll be like Googling

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things that you talk about that I'm

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Richard Sanders: not familiar with.

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Mm-hmm.

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, um, during

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Alexei Sayle: this coming up
interview with Richard Sanders,

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uh, which was recorded with
proper microphones, by the way.

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Sorry about the sound
quality of the intro.

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Um, but yeah.

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Uh, during this interview with Richard,
you, uh, John, we, who made the panorama

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Richard Sanders: of mm-hmm.

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, uh, antisemitism in labor life mm-hmm.

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, and I wanted to quickly just remind myself

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Alexei Sayle: what his Facebook
looked like, and I Googled him and

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it was what, uh, the top result I got
was, was actually a legendary black

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Richard Sanders: cowboy.

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Alexei Sayle: From, uh, Canada called
John we, who was one of the first

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black people ever in Calgary and is
quite a legendary, um, individual.

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And he had, um, you know, he
could like stop a charging cow

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head on and wrestle it to the

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Richard Sanders: ground.

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Alexei Sayle: He was a master horseman.

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Um, he was born a slave and then when
slavery was abolished in America,

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he went up and helped herd thousands
of cows up to Canada and became

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one of the first cowboys in Canada.

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And, um, I thought it was a,
a bit of serendipity that John

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Wean Cowboys came together.

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Yeah.

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He didn't direct the panorama.

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Is labor antisemitic though?

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? He certainly didn't.

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No, but I wish he had.

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No, but that's, Yeah, they, Oh,
you, you completely broke up there.

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Your, your signal.

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. 
Richard Sanders: Uh, but, um,
I think that's the fate telling

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us maybe to get on with the

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Alexei Sayle: interview.

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What, what do you think?

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All right.

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So anyway, let's jump in.

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May, uh, Alex sale, a younger Alex
sale, a pre uh, pre-lit trust, chaos

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departure, Lexi Sale, and Richard Sanders.

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Hello everybody.

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Welcome to, uh, The podcast with
Richard Sanders, who is directed

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one episode and was executive
producer of the other two episodes.

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Why not?

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Richard Sanders: Executive producer?

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I, I, I made the second in the
three part series for Labor

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Alexei Sayle: Files.

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Oh, the Labor Files for Al Jazeera, which
all the left, our entire demographic

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is absolutely, uh, crazy about Yeah.

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Them and no one else.

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. Yeah.

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But I, I think we can talk about, We first
met when you got in touch with me because

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you were, and this is where we have to be.

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We are going to talk about the panorama.

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Documentary, Um, is Labor antisemitic,
directed by and produced by John?

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We was the he John We was the reporter.

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Yeah.

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Was the reporter.

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Yeah.

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Um, John, we is extremely litigious.

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Um, I think I can say he looks
like a prick without him.

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With that glass is halfway down
the nose, fucking look, and the

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kind of, he looks like a rattled
old kind of fifties cinema idol.

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And also you can clearly see that this
man thinks he is fucking all that.

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I mean, this is a man who loves himself
to a great degree anyway, but we have to

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be careful, uh, about , about what we say
about him, about what we say about him.

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Nevertheless, uh, I don't think
that bit is actionable saying

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somebody looks like a pr.

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Um, but we met when you originally would
think wanted to, when it first came out.

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You want you.

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Appalled at the nature of
it, I think we can say.

235
00:11:51,030 --> 00:11:54,420
And you initially wanted to make a
thing with, with, with the wrong kind of

236
00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:59,400
Jews, which was basically boiled down to
me, Mi Margolis and, uh, Michael Rose.

237
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,000
Well, that's, that's right.

238
00:12:00,689 --> 00:12:02,620
Richard Sanders: It was a quite
brilliant idea I had, if I

239
00:12:02,620 --> 00:12:03,900
might, if I might say so myself.

240
00:12:04,110 --> 00:12:07,230
I mean, it wasn't particularly in response
to the panorama, although it was about

241
00:12:07,230 --> 00:12:08,610
that time you and I met, wasn't it?

242
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,800
It was certainly pre, pre covid.

243
00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:16,620
Um, and the idea at that time was to
have a three headed program yourself,

244
00:12:16,625 --> 00:12:18,990
Maria Margas and, and Michael Rosen.

245
00:12:19,349 --> 00:12:23,970
Um, just, just presenting an
alternative perspective and, and on,

246
00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:27,870
on the labor antisemitism crisis and
general musings on your own Jewishness

247
00:12:27,870 --> 00:12:30,660
and your, how you related to your
Jewishness, et cetera, et cetera.

248
00:12:30,839 --> 00:12:32,550
Which I still think would've
been a wonderful film, but

249
00:12:32,555 --> 00:12:33,420
I couldn't get anyone else

250
00:12:33,425 --> 00:12:33,990
Alexei Sayle: interested on it.

251
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:34,470
So, No.

252
00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:38,610
Well, that's, um, you know, I mean one
of the things I think we see in this,

253
00:12:39,270 --> 00:12:41,980
in those the Al Jazeera films is the.

254
00:12:43,350 --> 00:12:48,810
Totality, the one-sided nature of
the smear campaign against Corbin

255
00:12:48,810 --> 00:12:54,270
that you, that you could say, you
could say Corbin was an antisemite,

256
00:12:54,270 --> 00:12:58,170
or the labor party was institutional
anti, with no blow back whatsoever.

257
00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:03,300
To say that the, to say the truth,
which is the Corbin wasn't NTC might,

258
00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:09,060
and the Labor party was not infested
with antisemitism, uh, you know, came

259
00:13:09,060 --> 00:13:10,800
at a great risk, I think, didn't it?

260
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:11,130
You know?

261
00:13:11,310 --> 00:13:11,520
Yeah.

262
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,650
Richard Sanders: Um, my own motivation
was various, you know, I'm not a

263
00:13:16,650 --> 00:13:23,010
Cobin Knight, um, but I did feel that
a lot of the coverage at that time,

264
00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:27,660
particularly around the antisemitism
issue, was just very, obviously very bad.

265
00:13:28,365 --> 00:13:29,055
Journalism.

266
00:13:29,085 --> 00:13:29,445
Mm-hmm.

267
00:13:29,655 --> 00:13:33,465
And to, to a degree I felt there was
sort of market opening,  actually Right.

268
00:13:33,915 --> 00:13:35,475
Properly reporting all this stuff.

269
00:13:35,535 --> 00:13:40,635
So, um, although I never got that original
documentary made, Peter over o and myself

270
00:13:40,905 --> 00:13:43,995
have written various things, Some open
democracy, more for Middle East Eye.

271
00:13:43,995 --> 00:13:45,405
No one else seemed to be interested in it.

272
00:13:45,675 --> 00:13:49,455
But there, you know, there was an
interesting opening just, just doing

273
00:13:49,455 --> 00:13:51,705
proper journalism on this stuff.

274
00:13:51,705 --> 00:13:55,005
Particularly in the wake of when
the leaked report came out and

275
00:13:55,005 --> 00:13:57,015
then the e HRC report came out.

276
00:13:57,705 --> 00:14:00,465
Just a lot of the journalism
around this was just really

277
00:14:00,465 --> 00:14:01,125
Alexei Sayle: dreadful terms.

278
00:14:01,435 --> 00:14:01,875
Yeah.

279
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:02,235
Yeah.

280
00:14:02,235 --> 00:14:05,745
I think that that's what, first of
all, I have to say, I should put in

281
00:14:05,745 --> 00:14:09,635
an then come in for the BBC in my own
experience that the BC's been notten,

282
00:14:09,635 --> 00:14:16,365
but fantastic for me and also, Uh, Radio
four have been amazingly supportive.

283
00:14:16,365 --> 00:14:20,355
So I have to, I have to put that into,
hang onto my, which cuz it's true.

284
00:14:20,385 --> 00:14:23,985
You know, So the BBC is not, I, I know
we're not exclusively talking about

285
00:14:23,985 --> 00:14:26,835
the bbc, you know, it's, and, but
it's not a monolithic organization.

286
00:14:26,835 --> 00:14:33,015
But there is nevertheless a, a
tremendous problem with dare reporting

287
00:14:33,015 --> 00:14:37,305
of, you know, the whole antisemitism
in inverted communis crisis.

288
00:14:37,335 --> 00:14:42,045
And with the rest of the press,
really, it seems to me that

289
00:14:42,045 --> 00:14:43,305
we have gone through some.

290
00:14:44,355 --> 00:14:47,355
Well, I know you talk, I mean, as far
as you talk about, we, we seem to have

291
00:14:47,355 --> 00:14:52,425
gone through some kind of mirror, you
know, into a, into an alter altern

292
00:14:52,954 --> 00:14:59,564
universe really, where suddenly, um,
proper, responsible, judicious report,

293
00:14:59,564 --> 00:15:03,435
diligent reporting went out the window
and they can't really get it accurately.

294
00:15:03,435 --> 00:15:03,795
I dunno.

295
00:15:03,795 --> 00:15:04,365
I, I mean

296
00:15:04,814 --> 00:15:05,564
Richard Sanders: No, that, that's right.

297
00:15:05,564 --> 00:15:11,805
I think, you know, there were a lot of
powerful vested interests that had it

298
00:15:11,805 --> 00:15:14,954
in for Jeremy Corbin and, and really
wanted to undermine Jeremy Corbin.

299
00:15:15,464 --> 00:15:19,425
And, uh, they all lighted eventually
on the antisemitism thing as,

300
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:22,905
as the, the perfect weapon and,
and it is the perfect weapon.

301
00:15:22,964 --> 00:15:27,855
Uh, firstly, , you know, who wants to be
on the wrong side of, of the antisemitism?

302
00:15:27,945 --> 00:15:28,305
Yeah.

303
00:15:28,395 --> 00:15:31,575
Debate, you know, the history of
antisemitism and the experience of

304
00:15:31,575 --> 00:15:32,715
Jewish people in Europe and so on.

305
00:15:32,835 --> 00:15:35,865
These are so horrific that
it, it's a charge that

306
00:15:35,865 --> 00:15:38,265
obviously has enormous potency.

307
00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:38,475
Mm-hmm.

308
00:15:38,555 --> 00:15:42,795
and, and I think as well, I think it's
important to be fair here, it had enormous

309
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,565
potency cuz I think most of the people,
most of the time who are most invested.

310
00:15:48,035 --> 00:15:49,564
Genuinely believed it.

311
00:15:49,895 --> 00:15:53,405
You know, my, my experience of people
who might be called liberal Zionist

312
00:15:53,705 --> 00:15:58,355
is that they genuinely do believe
that people who are firmly anti

313
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,875
Zionist are at the very least suspect.

314
00:16:00,935 --> 00:16:01,415
Really?

315
00:16:01,564 --> 00:16:01,805
Yeah.

316
00:16:01,805 --> 00:16:04,655
No, I, I think, uh, you know, I think
there were certain people at certain times

317
00:16:04,660 --> 00:16:06,305
who were probably being pretty cynical.

318
00:16:06,365 --> 00:16:06,455
Mm-hmm.

319
00:16:06,755 --> 00:16:10,775
. Um, but I think a lot of the people, a
lot of the time gen genuinely believe it.

320
00:16:10,805 --> 00:16:14,885
They, they, they find it hard, You know,
even people who themselves may be quite

321
00:16:14,885 --> 00:16:19,925
critical of, you know, certain aspects
of the behavior of the Israeli state find

322
00:16:19,925 --> 00:16:24,635
it very hard to relate to a fundamental
critique of Zionism in any way.

323
00:16:24,694 --> 00:16:29,015
Other than that, it in some way reflects
people's attitude more broadly to

324
00:16:29,015 --> 00:16:30,245
Jews, and I think they're quite sincere

325
00:16:30,245 --> 00:16:31,625
Alexei Sayle: in that really even.

326
00:16:32,445 --> 00:16:35,205
Uh, to make the obvious point,
a lot of those people who are

327
00:16:35,205 --> 00:16:39,255
voicing those criticisms are
themselves Jewish, aren't they?

328
00:16:39,675 --> 00:16:39,945
Yes.

329
00:16:39,965 --> 00:16:40,165
I

330
00:16:40,165 --> 00:16:41,595
Richard Sanders: mean, I think that
was one of the Well, and, and I think

331
00:16:41,595 --> 00:16:48,585
that's possibly why tho those, those,
those procor in Jews find themselves

332
00:16:48,585 --> 00:16:52,185
the, the subject of the most ferocious
criticism, cuz it does rather

333
00:16:52,185 --> 00:16:56,205
undermine things and they have to be
portrayed as a sort of lunatic fringe.

334
00:16:56,265 --> 00:16:56,595
Yeah.

335
00:16:56,655 --> 00:17:00,225
Which it was very unfair for
people like Naomi when born DRIs

336
00:17:00,230 --> 00:17:04,155
and Jenny Ma, the Manson, who are,
you know, elderly Jewish ladies.

337
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:04,525
Yeah.

338
00:17:04,525 --> 00:17:09,700
You know, You know, in no way are they
sort of Lou left and you, Professor

339
00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:12,280
Aish sch Slim Jeffrey by, from a sch

340
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:13,030
Alexei Sayle: saved in the

341
00:17:13,030 --> 00:17:16,930
Richard Sanders: Israeli army
for Byman QC is Ludi Christ.

342
00:17:16,930 --> 00:17:19,089
To portray these people are
some sort of lunatic fringe.

343
00:17:19,149 --> 00:17:19,329
Yeah.

344
00:17:19,569 --> 00:17:22,389
And they're just people who,
Jews who are not Zionist.

345
00:17:22,450 --> 00:17:22,869
Yeah.

346
00:17:22,889 --> 00:17:29,050
Or, or, or, or Jews who, I mean, you know,
Jeffrey Byman would probably certainly

347
00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:33,639
say that he's not anti Zionist, but
certainly Jews were not pro Zionist.

348
00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:34,090
Alexei Sayle: Yeah.

349
00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:37,389
And I, like you say, I think that
that is, um, that goes some way to

350
00:17:37,389 --> 00:17:40,659
explain the ferocious attack within
the labor body and outside the labor

351
00:17:40,659 --> 00:17:44,169
body on those anti Zionist, uh, Jews.

352
00:17:44,169 --> 00:17:44,379
Yeah.

353
00:17:44,379 --> 00:17:46,899
Because it, it, it, it
undercuts the whole Russian,

354
00:17:46,899 --> 00:17:47,470
Richard Sanders: all of that.

355
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:51,010
And you have that ludicrous statistic,
which Jenny Manson articulates in

356
00:17:51,010 --> 00:17:55,000
our film that, you know, their,
their own calculation is that Jews

357
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,200
are 6.3 times more likely to be
investigated for antisemitism by

358
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,210
the Labor party than non-Jews.

359
00:18:01,210 --> 00:18:01,389
Yeah.

360
00:18:01,399 --> 00:18:04,180
Which, which really ought to set
an enormous alarm bell ringing.

361
00:18:04,505 --> 00:18:04,895
Yeah.

362
00:18:05,465 --> 00:18:05,975
. It doesn't,

363
00:18:05,975 --> 00:18:08,585
Alexei Sayle: apparently
it's extraordinary.

364
00:18:08,585 --> 00:18:14,525
I mean, I, I mean, the extent to
which, I mean, if you can describe a

365
00:18:14,525 --> 00:18:19,235
kind of nuty as being massive, the,
the, the massive way in which those

366
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,025
programs have been ignored is, I mean,
in its own way telling, isn't it?

367
00:18:23,525 --> 00:18:24,065
It, it is.

368
00:18:24,065 --> 00:18:24,095
I

369
00:18:24,385 --> 00:18:28,325
Richard Sanders: mean, I think why
this is there, there's various reasons.

370
00:18:28,385 --> 00:18:32,495
Um, I think we were very unlucky in
that we'd aimed to coincide with the

371
00:18:32,495 --> 00:18:36,785
late party conference and then the, the,
the conservative government imploded

372
00:18:36,785 --> 00:18:38,735
in this astonishing and bizarre way.

373
00:18:39,065 --> 00:18:41,885
The late party conference,
in its own terms, became a

374
00:18:41,885 --> 00:18:43,205
sort of triumphal procession.

375
00:18:43,325 --> 00:18:43,415
Mm-hmm.

376
00:18:43,475 --> 00:18:47,285
, uh, the spirit, the whiff of 97
is in the air and, and so on.

377
00:18:48,554 --> 00:18:50,145
No one really wanted.

378
00:18:50,324 --> 00:18:53,145
We, we, we weren't sort of
tapping into the Zeit guys at all.

379
00:18:53,145 --> 00:18:56,955
No one really wanted to rake over the
colds of, of the co years and so on.

380
00:18:57,284 --> 00:18:59,715
And so in part I get that mm-hmm.

381
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:04,425
, and, you know, in part I don't think it is
necessarily a conspiracy of some, What I

382
00:19:04,425 --> 00:19:07,485
do find extraordinary is, is the panorama.

383
00:19:07,695 --> 00:19:11,205
Now with the, with with John
W's Panorama, we're making

384
00:19:11,235 --> 00:19:13,485
four very concrete allegations.

385
00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:15,615
It's not some sort of scatter
gun, Oh, it's a horrible right

386
00:19:15,615 --> 00:19:16,574
wing program or something.

387
00:19:16,580 --> 00:19:21,014
It's four very specific allegations, and
I think anyone watching it would think,

388
00:19:21,014 --> 00:19:22,574
a, they're quite serious allegations.

389
00:19:22,580 --> 00:19:22,794
Mm-hmm.

390
00:19:22,875 --> 00:19:25,004
, you know, apparent inaccuracy.

391
00:19:25,010 --> 00:19:25,314
Mm-hmm.

392
00:19:25,725 --> 00:19:28,875
and, and B, they, they seem
to be pretty well evidenced.

393
00:19:29,084 --> 00:19:32,625
Now, if the BBC is able to turn around
and say to me, No, no, you've got it wrong

394
00:19:32,625 --> 00:19:35,475
for this, this and this reason, I'll,
I'll hold my hands up and that's fine.

395
00:19:35,475 --> 00:19:35,675
Mm-hmm.

396
00:19:35,754 --> 00:19:39,344
. But I think for the bbc, simply not to
engage, to simply put out a blanket.

397
00:19:39,344 --> 00:19:42,254
We stand by our journalism
and then just to keep quiet.

398
00:19:42,284 --> 00:19:42,314
Mm.

399
00:19:42,675 --> 00:19:46,425
No one talks about, it seems to me, Yeah.

400
00:19:46,905 --> 00:19:49,365
Entirely unacceptable in in
the national broadcaster.

401
00:19:49,425 --> 00:19:49,585
Alexei Sayle: Yeah.

402
00:19:50,145 --> 00:19:55,095
And it's also that if John, given that
John, we is so eager to resort to the

403
00:19:55,095 --> 00:20:02,655
courts, if, if your allegations weren't
true, you'd think he would, he'd unleash.

404
00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:09,260
Mark Lewis of Patrick and Law would
be round your house in a second.

405
00:20:09,260 --> 00:20:09,500
Really?

406
00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:13,460
And the fact that they haven't, um,
lashed out in that way, in least

407
00:20:13,460 --> 00:20:18,530
their dogs of law, kind of implies
that, uh, that their only tactic

408
00:20:18,530 --> 00:20:20,810
really is to ignore your accusations.

409
00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:21,170
Yes.

410
00:20:21,170 --> 00:20:21,530
I mean, I,

411
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,140
Richard Sanders: you know, I don't know,
maybe you should get John we on and

412
00:20:24,140 --> 00:20:28,070
ask him, , in the past when Peter and I
have written about this and when Navara.

413
00:20:28,625 --> 00:20:32,735
I've written about this, He has
written enormously lengthy replies.

414
00:20:32,735 --> 00:20:36,005
I mean, people who wanna see John
Weir's point of view can look at that.

415
00:20:36,005 --> 00:20:39,425
We, we, in open democracy, printed
the entirety of his response.

416
00:20:39,425 --> 00:20:39,515
Mm-hmm.

417
00:20:39,935 --> 00:20:43,595
, uh, he, I think in the Jewish
Chronicle, wrote an enormously lengthy

418
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,065
response to a Novara media piece.

419
00:20:45,185 --> 00:20:47,405
So, you know, John Weir's
views are out there.

420
00:20:47,410 --> 00:20:48,965
If you wanna go, go and look at them.

421
00:20:49,355 --> 00:20:53,405
Um, I, I, my personal feeling
is they don't provide sufficient

422
00:20:53,405 --> 00:20:56,495
explanation for the apparent
inaccuracies we're presenting.

423
00:20:56,765 --> 00:20:59,315
There is, of course, a
legal case looming Yes.

424
00:20:59,315 --> 00:21:00,935
Patty French, at the
beginning of November.

425
00:21:01,115 --> 00:21:02,255
It's possible.

426
00:21:03,155 --> 00:21:06,335
John Weir feels he needs to
remain quiet ahead of that.

427
00:21:06,335 --> 00:21:06,905
I don't know.

428
00:21:06,910 --> 00:21:07,065
Mm-hmm.

429
00:21:07,235 --> 00:21:11,645
, So I, you know, all I can observe
is that the BBC and, and John Muir

430
00:21:11,645 --> 00:21:13,385
are determinedly saying nothing.

431
00:21:13,715 --> 00:21:13,985
Yeah.

432
00:21:13,985 --> 00:21:17,945
And, and as a result, Um, no
one else is saying anything.

433
00:21:18,065 --> 00:21:18,905
I mean, it was interesting.

434
00:21:18,905 --> 00:21:21,455
The only people really to fire
back at my program was Stellar

435
00:21:21,485 --> 00:21:23,165
Creasy and her partner Dan Fox.

436
00:21:23,165 --> 00:21:23,555
Right.

437
00:21:23,555 --> 00:21:27,815
Who were immediately deluged beneath a, a
torrent of people saying, Well, hang on.

438
00:21:27,815 --> 00:21:30,815
You know, the, the evidence
in the film speaks for itself.

439
00:21:30,815 --> 00:21:34,205
So their experience perhaps
shows the wisdom of other

440
00:21:34,205 --> 00:21:35,585
people's not saying anything.

441
00:21:35,765 --> 00:21:37,805
I mean, I personally, I take
it as a compliment to the

442
00:21:37,805 --> 00:21:39,575
journalism at the moment mm-hmm.

443
00:21:39,905 --> 00:21:43,925
that people clearly don't feel
able, um, or don't feel that they

444
00:21:43,930 --> 00:21:45,485
want to engage in public debate.

445
00:21:45,485 --> 00:21:49,715
The strategy appears to be
stand stands that I don't blink,

446
00:21:49,715 --> 00:21:50,675
and maybe they'll go away.

447
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,175
Right.

448
00:21:51,425 --> 00:21:51,605
I know.

449
00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:54,665
The depressing thing is, is, you know,
I'm very grateful to be here and I'm very

450
00:21:55,055 --> 00:21:57,725
on Palestine deep dive, but I mean, be on

451
00:21:57,935 --> 00:21:58,385
Alexei Sayle: the morning.

452
00:21:59,015 --> 00:22:00,995
The one show I'd love to
be on the today, Greg.

453
00:22:00,995 --> 00:22:01,055
Yeah.

454
00:22:01,055 --> 00:22:01,955
Graham Norton.

455
00:22:02,105 --> 00:22:02,435
Yeah.

456
00:22:02,735 --> 00:22:04,715
Where, where you should be Really.

457
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:05,885
But it's not happening at the moment.

458
00:22:06,035 --> 00:22:06,635
No.

459
00:22:07,065 --> 00:22:07,415
No.

460
00:22:07,595 --> 00:22:11,730
And that just, I mean, maybe we should
just, I mean, In greater detail.

461
00:22:11,730 --> 00:22:15,030
Let's go into, well, I dunno, go into your
history, I suppose would be fair of all.

462
00:22:15,035 --> 00:22:17,070
Where, what led you to this point?

463
00:22:17,129 --> 00:22:19,170
I think in general, this career ending

464
00:22:19,170 --> 00:22:21,090
Richard Sanders: point, I
think, well, as I say in part

465
00:22:21,090 --> 00:22:22,290
it was a sort of market opening.

466
00:22:22,290 --> 00:22:24,180
No one else was gonna report
this properly, so I thought

467
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:25,350
I might as well, you know.

468
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:26,940
Has that been a good move?

469
00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:29,010
Well, well find out.

470
00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:31,890
I mean, I've always had, you know,
I've been working as a TV producer

471
00:22:31,890 --> 00:22:34,500
for 25 years and I've always gone
straight from one film to another.

472
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,810
And here I am having finished
that one sitting here.

473
00:22:36,810 --> 00:22:37,350
So we'll see.

474
00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:38,460
Maybe I'll never work again.

475
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:39,780
I hope, I hope that's not the case.

476
00:22:40,170 --> 00:22:42,420
Um, we'll, we'll see.

477
00:22:42,629 --> 00:22:47,250
But there were partly, I'm, I'm always
drawn to what's difficult and this

478
00:22:47,250 --> 00:22:51,990
is an immensely difficult subject.

479
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,360
On one level, it's one, people
seem to find it emotionally and

480
00:22:57,365 --> 00:22:58,710
intellectually very difficult.

481
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,750
I did feel that the journalism was
appalling, but also I had a very

482
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:06,570
strong sense, I'd rather Carmi,
the Palestinian writer asked me

483
00:23:06,570 --> 00:23:08,610
this the first time I met her.

484
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:09,570
You know, why do you care?

485
00:23:10,185 --> 00:23:16,605
And, and I, I think the truth is, it
seems to me very obvious that if you are

486
00:23:16,605 --> 00:23:23,055
continuously appropriating to yourself
the right to say, ah, they may talk about

487
00:23:23,055 --> 00:23:25,995
Israel and Zionism, but they mean Jews.

488
00:23:26,025 --> 00:23:26,145
Mm-hmm.

489
00:23:26,475 --> 00:23:30,435
. Now if you, if you are unquestioned,
appropriating that right to yourself,

490
00:23:30,765 --> 00:23:32,325
where does that leave Palestinians?

491
00:23:32,505 --> 00:23:32,565
Yeah.

492
00:23:32,955 --> 00:23:35,985
If every time they articulate their
struggle, they're told, ah, you might say

493
00:23:35,985 --> 00:23:37,695
that, but you mean some, something else.

494
00:23:37,725 --> 00:23:37,815
Mm-hmm.

495
00:23:38,235 --> 00:23:43,185
and it, and it seems to me the entire
narrative, very obviously a served to

496
00:23:43,185 --> 00:23:47,835
shield what all of the was human rights
organizations agree as an apartheid state.

497
00:23:47,835 --> 00:23:51,525
It did, it, it very clearly served
to provide a shield from criticism.

498
00:23:51,825 --> 00:23:56,835
It also clearly undermined
and disempowered Palestinians.

499
00:23:56,925 --> 00:23:59,475
And in fact, more than that
demonized Palestinians.

500
00:23:59,475 --> 00:24:01,305
The minute you, you would,
you would inflict the.

501
00:24:02,415 --> 00:24:05,745
Of antisemitism on people, you know,
which has such dreadful resonance mm-hmm.

502
00:24:05,985 --> 00:24:06,945
in European history.

503
00:24:07,395 --> 00:24:11,325
You have, you, you, you've, you've
undermined them in a very fundamental

504
00:24:11,325 --> 00:24:16,784
way and certainly opened the door to
de de demonization and dehumanization.

505
00:24:16,790 --> 00:24:22,215
And that's what I felt, uh, it
was, um, it, it, yeah, it was the,

506
00:24:22,215 --> 00:24:26,835
the impact on Palestinians of all
this that really motivated me.

507
00:24:27,524 --> 00:24:30,585
Alexei Sayle: And I mean, I always
think there is a broader kind of

508
00:24:30,585 --> 00:24:35,175
agenda as well, because anybody who
is a socialist will be by, you know,

509
00:24:35,415 --> 00:24:37,514
by and large will be pro Palestinian.

510
00:24:37,514 --> 00:24:42,225
And therefore it not only subverts, you
know, the Palestinian course, but also

511
00:24:42,225 --> 00:24:46,815
sub, I mean, it's been used tove the
entire course of socialism, wasn't it

512
00:24:46,815 --> 00:24:46,995
Richard Sanders: really?

513
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:47,264
Ever.

514
00:24:47,415 --> 00:24:47,625
Yes.

515
00:24:47,625 --> 00:24:48,855
I mean, I cared less about that.

516
00:24:49,004 --> 00:24:49,065
Yeah.

517
00:24:49,065 --> 00:24:50,685
I, you know, the labor
is its own business.

518
00:24:50,685 --> 00:24:53,205
I mean, it seems to me the
fundamental undermining.

519
00:24:54,450 --> 00:24:58,770
of an entire people, um,
was something that sort of

520
00:24:58,770 --> 00:25:00,510
exercised me more emotionally.

521
00:25:00,630 --> 00:25:01,980
But I think you're absolutely right.

522
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,090
And, and I think going forward,
this is something the left has

523
00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:10,260
to confront because this is, you
know, it's been battle tested now.

524
00:25:10,265 --> 00:25:10,640
Yeah.

525
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,400
And, and it is the perfect
way anyone going forward is

526
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,430
likely to be, um, a champion.

527
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:22,110
Anyone genuinely radical is likely to be
a champion of Palestinian human rights.

528
00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:22,440
Mm-hmm.

529
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,790
and a critic, not just of Israel, but
you know, the broader concept designers.

530
00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:26,970
Mm-hmm.

531
00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:29,580
and they can now always be destroyed.

532
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:29,910
Yeah.

533
00:25:29,915 --> 00:25:33,210
Using this and the left has to
think quite ha carefully about how.

534
00:25:33,675 --> 00:25:36,315
It addresses this in future, I mean,
I'd point you towards something

535
00:25:36,345 --> 00:25:37,785
that you can get it online.

536
00:25:37,905 --> 00:25:41,535
The, the hostings, the leadership hostings
of the Jewish Labor Movement shared by

537
00:25:41,535 --> 00:25:50,055
Robert Paston, um, in whatever January,
2020, where Paston presents the argument

538
00:25:50,415 --> 00:25:58,784
that the very act of arguing for a free
speech caveat by Corbin in, in September,

539
00:25:58,784 --> 00:26:03,075
2018 when the Labor Party adopted the
h i HRA definition of antisemitism,

540
00:26:03,375 --> 00:26:08,835
the very act of suggesting you needed
a caveat to protect free, free speech.

541
00:26:08,925 --> 00:26:13,785
He argues that in itself is antisemitic
and should have led to what he

542
00:26:13,790 --> 00:26:15,465
calls a reckoning at that time.

543
00:26:15,645 --> 00:26:17,205
And he gets really quite
worked up about it.

544
00:26:17,355 --> 00:26:17,595
Right.

545
00:26:17,595 --> 00:26:19,845
It's pretty, it's, it's, you,
you should, you should watch it.

546
00:26:19,845 --> 00:26:20,115
Yeah.

547
00:26:20,145 --> 00:26:20,925
Very revealing.

548
00:26:21,195 --> 00:26:24,405
And at one point, Rebecca Long Bailey
just attempts to say, Well, I, you know,

549
00:26:24,405 --> 00:26:29,115
I can't exactly remember the wording, and
she is howled down by the audience now.

550
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:36,690
It shows the corner that the left had
allowed itself to be backed into Yes.

551
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:37,200
By that time.

552
00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:40,590
And I think it ought to be required
viewing for anyone who cares about

553
00:26:40,590 --> 00:26:44,820
Palestinian human rights because they,
they had allow, allowed themselves to be

554
00:26:44,825 --> 00:26:47,940
backed into a corner where they simply
couldn't open their mouths at all.

555
00:26:47,945 --> 00:26:48,510
Yes, Yes.

556
00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:53,580
And I, I think Huda amor the young pale
new woman's comments on those minutes

557
00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:57,090
of the meeting between Steve Reed and
the Board of Deputies and the, um,

558
00:26:57,090 --> 00:26:59,340
and other, um, Jewish communal groups.

559
00:26:59,340 --> 00:27:02,880
It comes at the end of our
film where, and I think Huda

560
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,410
is very articulate about this.

561
00:27:04,410 --> 00:27:08,730
She points out that it shows
the, the, the immediate light.

562
00:27:09,740 --> 00:27:12,825
of the, the, the fight
against antisemitism with

563
00:27:12,945 --> 00:27:15,045
combating the policy of bds.

564
00:27:15,105 --> 00:27:15,254
Mm-hmm.

565
00:27:15,615 --> 00:27:15,975
. Yes.

566
00:27:16,035 --> 00:27:18,765
And, and, and, and, and, and it shows.

567
00:27:19,575 --> 00:27:22,155
She says it's quite shocking to
see the two things so crudely

568
00:27:22,155 --> 00:27:23,625
and obviously wedded together.

569
00:27:23,715 --> 00:27:23,985
Alexei Sayle: Mm-hmm.

570
00:27:24,375 --> 00:27:24,825
. Yeah.

571
00:27:24,825 --> 00:27:28,575
I mean, I do think that the,
um, we've talked about this

572
00:27:28,580 --> 00:27:29,835
a bit on the podcast app.

573
00:27:30,315 --> 00:27:36,254
The left Jeremy Co made a terrible
mistake in not fighting back against

574
00:27:36,254 --> 00:27:38,115
these accusations much earlier.

575
00:27:38,415 --> 00:27:40,875
And I think, again, I, I
always sort of blame McDonald.

576
00:27:40,935 --> 00:27:44,715
I think there was an element that, I
mean that, that the thought, if we make

577
00:27:44,805 --> 00:27:48,435
one more apology, if we just apologize
that this will draw a line on, of

578
00:27:48,435 --> 00:27:52,785
course, not understanding that these
people are board deputies, et cetera.

579
00:27:52,785 --> 00:27:57,165
Jewish labor movements are bullies
who will never, uh, accept an apology.

580
00:27:57,254 --> 00:27:58,875
Richard Sanders: I mean, what I
think people will often say to

581
00:27:58,875 --> 00:28:00,795
you is, why didn't he state it?

582
00:28:00,945 --> 00:28:04,605
You know, his opposition to antisemitism
and his condemnation of anti sem and.

583
00:28:05,505 --> 00:28:08,745
Antisemitism clearly and firmly,
which is why at the beginning of the

584
00:28:08,745 --> 00:28:11,595
film we have, I think it's about a
three minute section where he just

585
00:28:11,595 --> 00:28:13,185
does it again and again and again.

586
00:28:13,365 --> 00:28:13,605
Yeah.

587
00:28:13,605 --> 00:28:21,825
And again, I, I think my own view is that
the Corbin was confronted with two issues,

588
00:28:22,065 --> 00:28:25,845
but I'm not sure any labor leader could
have dealt with woman Brexit flexed, where

589
00:28:25,845 --> 00:28:29,985
he has the, the conundrum of a party where
80, 80% of people who remain and 70% of

590
00:28:29,985 --> 00:28:31,875
the constituencies had voted to, to leave.

591
00:28:32,025 --> 00:28:35,265
I'm not sure if any labor leader
could have squared that circle.

592
00:28:35,325 --> 00:28:35,565
No.

593
00:28:35,655 --> 00:28:39,585
And the anti-Semitism thing, and you know,
I've talked to various people actually in

594
00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:44,685
the last few days about this, and I think
this is certainly a debate that needs to

595
00:28:44,690 --> 00:28:48,555
happen within the left, but it seems to
me there are one of two things you can do.

596
00:28:48,885 --> 00:28:50,085
You can either.

597
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,550
Stand up and say, Well, no,
sorry, it's an apartheid state

598
00:28:53,580 --> 00:28:57,060
and therefore from an anti-racist
perspective, I'm going to condemn it.

599
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:57,280
Mm-hmm.

600
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:58,860
and I'm gonna very firmly condemn it.

601
00:28:58,860 --> 00:29:01,980
And if you are going to attack me
from an anti-racist perspective, your

602
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:03,690
evidence needs to be really good.

603
00:29:03,780 --> 00:29:04,080
Yeah.

604
00:29:04,110 --> 00:29:05,910
And I'm not gonna be
knocked off course here.

605
00:29:06,030 --> 00:29:06,300
Yeah.

606
00:29:06,330 --> 00:29:07,830
Um, that's one position to take.

607
00:29:08,190 --> 00:29:11,460
If you're not going to do that, you
probably have to go all the way to

608
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:16,290
the other extreme and do what Stama
did and, and make your speech in front

609
00:29:16,290 --> 00:29:19,710
of the labor friends of Israel and
basically accept their, their agenda.

610
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:20,080
Yeah.

611
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,480
But then, but it needs
to be one or the other.

612
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:21,780
Yeah.

613
00:29:21,780 --> 00:29:23,240
And it seems to me.

614
00:29:24,270 --> 00:29:27,930
That Jeremy, if, if you're not gonna
do one or the other of them, you are

615
00:29:27,930 --> 00:29:29,700
endlessly twisting in the wind in between.

616
00:29:29,820 --> 00:29:32,280
Now, there are, you know, people I've
spoke with within the last few days

617
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,920
who disagree with that and think there
was a middle course you could take.

618
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:36,450
I'm not sure what that middle course was.

619
00:29:36,455 --> 00:29:36,630
I

620
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:37,950
Alexei Sayle: I don't think
there was a middle course.

621
00:29:37,950 --> 00:29:38,670
I agree with you.

622
00:29:38,670 --> 00:29:41,790
I mean, I think that it's, you know,
it's, it's, yes, it's one or the other.

623
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,440
Well, and if you care about, you know,
anti-colonialism, imperialism, Right.

624
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:47,550
But I, I think the first, you

625
00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:50,310
Richard Sanders: take option one,
but, but option one, I suspect.

626
00:29:51,045 --> 00:29:54,135
Uh, Jeremy and people around him
were right in calculating think is

627
00:29:54,135 --> 00:29:57,735
simply impossible to articulate in
the British sort of media climate.

628
00:29:57,765 --> 00:29:57,795
Mm.

629
00:29:57,855 --> 00:29:57,975
Yeah.

630
00:29:58,005 --> 00:30:02,625
You simply, you know, standing up
and saying, I'm sorry, it's a racist,

631
00:30:02,955 --> 00:30:05,325
ethno state who's defining features
that it's structured to ensure the

632
00:30:05,330 --> 00:30:06,855
domination of one ethnicity over another.

633
00:30:07,335 --> 00:30:08,835
I just don't think you're
allowed to do that.

634
00:30:08,835 --> 00:30:10,365
I'll probably get in trouble
cause I've just done it.

635
00:30:10,605 --> 00:30:10,965
Yeah.

636
00:30:10,965 --> 00:30:14,955
Um, you're simply not allowed to do that
in, in Britain, even though that is the

637
00:30:14,955 --> 00:30:16,875
position of all the world's leading Yes.

638
00:30:16,875 --> 00:30:19,845
Human rights organizations, including
BET Cellar, which is Israeli.

639
00:30:20,505 --> 00:30:21,135
Alexei Sayle: Absolutely.

640
00:30:21,135 --> 00:30:21,555
Yeah.

641
00:30:21,825 --> 00:30:22,305
Yeah.

642
00:30:22,395 --> 00:30:25,155
It's, I mean, yeah, in a way
I suppose it's, I, I know.

643
00:30:26,460 --> 00:30:28,800
When you're in the middle of
something, the way Jeremy was, you

644
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,190
know, when you're, you know, being
attacked from so many sides, it's,

645
00:30:32,190 --> 00:30:33,899
it's very hard to think straight.

646
00:30:33,930 --> 00:30:34,260
I think.

647
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:40,590
I mean, I've, I mean, as a pro Palestinian
activist, I have noticed this, the

648
00:30:40,595 --> 00:30:45,629
idea of the new antisemitism starting
around about 2000 when they started sort

649
00:30:45,629 --> 00:30:50,760
of beta testing it, you know, trying
it out, you know, didn't quite work.

650
00:30:50,790 --> 00:30:57,990
Getting pushed back, coming back again and
again until it grew the I H R A definition

651
00:30:57,990 --> 00:31:02,110
and all that shit, you know, I mean, until
you know, it, finally, it, it blossom.

652
00:31:03,060 --> 00:31:06,360
Richard Sanders: Well, it gets
turbocharged after 2016 because

653
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,470
it's the person weapon to.

654
00:31:08,415 --> 00:31:10,844
Cor now, you know, I think the
Israel lobby is very powerful.

655
00:31:10,844 --> 00:31:12,854
It's is, but it ain't that powerful.

656
00:31:13,034 --> 00:31:17,354
And, and the reason it gets turbocharged
after 2016 is cuz all sorts of other

657
00:31:17,354 --> 00:31:21,975
groups are suddenly also have a vested
interest in, in destroying Jeremy Corbin.

658
00:31:21,975 --> 00:31:22,064
Mm-hmm.

659
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:24,405
and various groups who don't
give a damn about, um, there's

660
00:31:24,405 --> 00:31:25,334
elements on the labor, Right.

661
00:31:25,334 --> 00:31:28,475
For example, I don't think,
give a damn about Israel and or

662
00:31:28,479 --> 00:31:29,415
antisemitism for that matter.

663
00:31:29,655 --> 00:31:32,294
But they, they, they worked out,
they had the perfect weapon here.

664
00:31:32,294 --> 00:31:32,475
Yeah.

665
00:31:32,475 --> 00:31:35,324
And it was a weapon that disempowered
parole Jeremy, because there, there is

666
00:31:35,324 --> 00:31:41,114
a man whose entire life had been about
anti-racism and it sort of disarmed him.

667
00:31:41,114 --> 00:31:43,784
I, I just don't think he, it
just left him floundering.

668
00:31:43,844 --> 00:31:44,205
Yeah.

669
00:31:44,209 --> 00:31:44,564
I think it

670
00:31:44,564 --> 00:31:46,695
Alexei Sayle: must have been on a
personal level, he must have been,

671
00:31:46,695 --> 00:31:48,495
it must have been terribly confusing.

672
00:31:48,495 --> 00:31:48,675
Really.

673
00:31:48,864 --> 00:31:50,435
I think he found it very
difficult personally.

674
00:31:50,435 --> 00:31:50,675
Yeah.

675
00:31:50,679 --> 00:31:55,574
I mean, I always think that like 40
years, 50 years of campaigning against

676
00:31:55,574 --> 00:32:02,700
anti-racism, Compared to like giving
back to like mural that might or might

677
00:32:02,730 --> 00:32:05,880
not have had some dodgy stuff in it.

678
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:06,120
You know?

679
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:12,270
I mean, so you take 40 years an entire
life, expensive and anti-racism or

680
00:32:12,750 --> 00:32:17,220
tweeting support for a mural, you know,
hadn't looked, hadn't looked properly.

681
00:32:17,940 --> 00:32:18,240
Yeah.

682
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,990
The extraordinary I impact maybe then,
I mean, we could go onto the other, I

683
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:28,140
mean, leave from behind that, um, the
whole antisemitism, uh, smear and um,

684
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:32,160
just go onto the other stuff within the
Labor Party, I suppose that, that, that,

685
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:40,500
that, that the, um, those series of films
reveal or, uh, uh, just the, well again,

686
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:48,285
I suppose it's the, it's the com it's
those, the degree to which, uh, Elements

687
00:32:48,285 --> 00:32:53,085
within the Labor Party hierarchy conspired
against democratically elected leader

688
00:32:53,145 --> 00:32:54,105
Richard Sanders: of the Labor Party.

689
00:32:54,255 --> 00:32:54,555
That's right.

690
00:32:54,555 --> 00:33:00,285
Film one is about general skullduggery,
um, by the labor right against, against

691
00:33:00,285 --> 00:33:01,995
the left, particularly in Liverpool.

692
00:33:02,175 --> 00:33:06,615
Um, from three is about racism,
uh, and the hierarchy of racism.

693
00:33:07,335 --> 00:33:10,665
Of course while we were making this
series, the Ford Report came out, which,

694
00:33:11,085 --> 00:33:13,695
you know, even if you don't wanna listen
to Al Jazeera, read the Ford Report.

695
00:33:13,845 --> 00:33:14,145
Yeah.

696
00:33:14,145 --> 00:33:16,965
Now the Ford report is couched in
very cautious language and it does

697
00:33:16,965 --> 00:33:22,125
a bit of both sides as someone blah,
blah, blah, you know, in large measure

698
00:33:22,125 --> 00:33:23,625
vindicates a lot of what we're saying.

699
00:33:23,804 --> 00:33:23,895
Mm-hmm.

700
00:33:24,139 --> 00:33:24,495
Absolutely.

701
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,355
If you read it carefully and
read it properly, I, It's a

702
00:33:26,355 --> 00:33:28,514
fascinating, rather surprising.

703
00:33:28,995 --> 00:33:29,485
Alexei Sayle: Yeah.

704
00:33:29,485 --> 00:33:33,345
I mean, I was, I was all expecting
that it would be a complete whitewash

705
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:38,715
and while there are things I disagree
in it, there it is, is a long way from

706
00:33:38,715 --> 00:33:39,014
Richard Sanders: whitewash.

707
00:33:39,125 --> 00:33:41,175
I mean, you get, get towards the
end of it and you look at the

708
00:33:41,175 --> 00:33:43,425
stuff about antisemitism training.

709
00:33:44,205 --> 00:33:44,385
Yeah.

710
00:33:44,385 --> 00:33:49,514
Where he starts calling for a, a broader
approach and for Jewish voice, for labor.

711
00:33:49,949 --> 00:33:52,679
Uh, you know, for it not just to be
left of the Jewish Labor movement,

712
00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:56,399
but for, for Jewish voice, for labor,
which supported Cobin to be involved

713
00:33:56,399 --> 00:33:57,929
in that antisemitism training.

714
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,389
I mean, it's, it's pretty
radical what he's suggesting.

715
00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:02,040
And, and which you can see from the

716
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:02,610
Alexei Sayle: pushback.

717
00:34:02,669 --> 00:34:02,939
Yeah.

718
00:34:03,070 --> 00:34:04,919
The, I mean the Jewish
Chronicle went nuts,

719
00:34:05,639 --> 00:34:06,840
Richard Sanders: which is
interesting because everyone

720
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,100
else just kept quiet about it.

721
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:10,679
The labor just kept quiet about that
fraud report, rather they, as they

722
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,409
have about our series, Cause they,
but if we quick keep quiet, no one

723
00:34:13,409 --> 00:34:14,730
will know that's what he is written.

724
00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:16,650
And, and again, that was
the sensible approach.

725
00:34:16,889 --> 00:34:19,259
I thought it was rather rather
unwise of the Jewish, chronic and

726
00:34:19,259 --> 00:34:20,370
other people to really push back.

727
00:34:20,370 --> 00:34:22,409
Cause I don't think anyone would've
noticed those bits at the end of

728
00:34:22,409 --> 00:34:25,350
the report if they hadn't jumped up
and down and said, This is entirely.

729
00:34:25,469 --> 00:34:25,909
Yeah.

730
00:34:25,915 --> 00:34:28,889
And of course John Weir's response
to our program was to say, I,

731
00:34:28,895 --> 00:34:30,120
I disagree with the Ford Report

732
00:34:32,009 --> 00:34:34,500
, 
Alexei Sayle: even though that
was commissioned by Starer and you

733
00:34:34,505 --> 00:34:36,840
know, is meticulously researched.

734
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:37,020
Yeah.

735
00:34:37,025 --> 00:34:37,170
I mean,

736
00:34:37,170 --> 00:34:40,049
Richard Sanders: it took and didn't see
the light of day for two and a half years.

737
00:34:40,290 --> 00:34:43,049
And as journalistically, I'm
still beavering away here.

738
00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:45,960
I'd love to know the inside story of why.

739
00:34:46,694 --> 00:34:50,714
The Ford report didn't come
out for two years and the four

740
00:34:50,714 --> 00:34:53,955
four panelists are being very
professional and tight lipped and, uh,

741
00:34:54,734 --> 00:34:57,705
Alexei Sayle: I'd left a you can
guess, can't you, which is to stake

742
00:34:57,705 --> 00:35:00,674
the, you know, if it had come out
when it was completed, it would've

743
00:35:00,674 --> 00:35:02,955
had much more power than it doesn't

744
00:35:02,959 --> 00:35:03,134
Richard Sanders: Yeah.

745
00:35:03,165 --> 00:35:03,495
Yes.

746
00:35:03,495 --> 00:35:06,375
I mean, they managed to, as it was, it was
released on the harshest day in history

747
00:35:06,375 --> 00:35:09,555
and, and of other things were going on.

748
00:35:09,975 --> 00:35:13,095
It's got pretty much ignored, but it's
an interesting read the Ford Report.

749
00:35:13,095 --> 00:35:13,154
Yeah.

750
00:35:13,535 --> 00:35:16,875
You, you sort of sense
that Martin Ford got it.

751
00:35:17,205 --> 00:35:20,774
He understood what, and to a
large, you know, what he, he was

752
00:35:20,774 --> 00:35:24,285
commissioned to look at the leaked
report, which was the Labor Party's

753
00:35:24,314 --> 00:35:27,015
own study during the Corman era into.

754
00:35:27,405 --> 00:35:29,895
Antisemitism, which is
also a fascinating report.

755
00:35:30,045 --> 00:35:32,805
I mean, for any historian, proper
historians or journalists out

756
00:35:32,805 --> 00:35:36,495
there, if you really want to
understand the labor antisemitism

757
00:35:36,555 --> 00:35:39,405
crisis, read the leaked report.

758
00:35:39,435 --> 00:35:44,715
Cause although it doesn't question
some of the fundamentals as a portrait

759
00:35:44,925 --> 00:35:49,455
of the internal workings of a, of
a party, it's without precedent.

760
00:35:49,455 --> 00:35:53,025
I mean, if, in fact, I think rather
took by surprise in the closing

761
00:35:53,025 --> 00:35:56,745
days of, of Corbin's leadership,
the people it was presented to

762
00:35:56,985 --> 00:35:58,605
Jenny form being Kerry Murphy.

763
00:35:58,625 --> 00:36:01,965
I don't, I don't think they'd
expected someone to, to carry

764
00:36:01,965 --> 00:36:05,775
out such an incredibly detailed,
obsessively detailed study.

765
00:36:05,865 --> 00:36:07,785
And there's a remarkable
document that leaked

766
00:36:08,055 --> 00:36:11,025
Alexei Sayle: and labor, the, the,
um, the Labor Party under starer.

767
00:36:11,025 --> 00:36:16,065
Their response was rather than,
um, you know, examining these, the

768
00:36:16,065 --> 00:36:21,585
examples of incredible racism and
from Emil El know, and, uh, you

769
00:36:21,585 --> 00:36:22,785
know, Ian Mc, you know, the former.

770
00:36:23,835 --> 00:36:27,975
Leaders of the paid people who
are being paid to support Jeremy

771
00:36:27,975 --> 00:36:31,905
Coman rather than, uh, you know,
examining that day of legally

772
00:36:31,905 --> 00:36:33,915
attacked the people they think leaked

773
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:34,035
Richard Sanders: it.

774
00:36:34,185 --> 00:36:35,055
Well, there's two things they do.

775
00:36:35,055 --> 00:36:37,905
One is they commission the Ford
Report to look into the leak report.

776
00:36:38,185 --> 00:36:38,305
Yeah.

777
00:36:38,355 --> 00:36:40,125
Which then doesn't report
two and a half years.

778
00:36:40,125 --> 00:36:42,795
And then when it reports
it's buried as well.

779
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:42,865
Mm-hmm.

780
00:36:42,945 --> 00:36:45,975
. But the other thing is, yes,
they, so the Labor Party is being

781
00:36:46,575 --> 00:36:50,625
pursued by two groups, um, for.

782
00:36:51,509 --> 00:36:53,939
The revelations for data
protection violations.

783
00:36:53,970 --> 00:36:54,359
Okay.

784
00:36:54,839 --> 00:36:58,290
It's having to spend enormous amounts
of money, uh, defending itself.

785
00:36:58,290 --> 00:37:03,419
And it's taken out what's called a Section
20 where it seeks to recover its, um,

786
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:09,450
costs from the people it claims, although
it doesn't seem to have any evidence

787
00:37:09,450 --> 00:37:11,129
of this, it claims leaked the report.

788
00:37:11,129 --> 00:37:11,189
Yeah.

789
00:37:11,189 --> 00:37:13,710
Who also coincidentally are the
people who wrote the report.

790
00:37:13,770 --> 00:37:14,009
Right.

791
00:37:14,009 --> 00:37:14,460
Okay.

792
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:15,060
Yes.

793
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,560
And you know, there are three young
people who the Labor Party is effectively

794
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,339
seeking to do, destroy their lives,
to bankrupt them, and certainly one of

795
00:37:23,345 --> 00:37:25,319
them has no money whatsoever, you know?

796
00:37:25,589 --> 00:37:31,040
Um, and it's very hard not
to feel that they are being

797
00:37:31,046 --> 00:37:33,060
punished for having written.

798
00:37:33,810 --> 00:37:34,170
The

799
00:37:34,170 --> 00:37:36,750
Alexei Sayle: report for those of
us, there's those of our listers

800
00:37:36,750 --> 00:37:38,940
not embedded in labor shenanigans.

801
00:37:38,940 --> 00:37:41,520
Can you just tell Al Ask what was the leak

802
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:41,790
Richard Sanders: report?

803
00:37:41,790 --> 00:37:41,880
Yeah.

804
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,400
I mean, you have to, you have to
become an expert in the endless

805
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,930
reports and I have become, and it's
really, Let me walk you through them.

806
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:54,450
First of all, you get the Alies,
uh, and human hang on, eh, hrc.

807
00:37:54,455 --> 00:37:59,940
The Qualities and Human Rights Commission,
the Statutory Qualities and Human Rights

808
00:37:59,940 --> 00:38:04,320
Commission, which is the successor, which
are the Commission for Racial Equality,

809
00:38:04,890 --> 00:38:06,240
uh, which used to deal with race.

810
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:08,759
They then throw in all sorts of
other inequalities, gay rights,

811
00:38:08,765 --> 00:38:12,300
and women's rights, and bl them all
together in this single organization.

812
00:38:12,779 --> 00:38:17,520
They, in the spring of 2019,
announced they were gonna investigate

813
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:18,810
the aid party for anti sem.

814
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,740
And, and, and dip is
extraordinarily intrusive in what

815
00:38:22,740 --> 00:38:24,330
it's demanding from the party.

816
00:38:24,810 --> 00:38:28,500
Um, you know, what wants
all sorts of information?

817
00:38:28,649 --> 00:38:32,040
Well, no, at one time is demanding
people's private emails and so on,

818
00:38:32,370 --> 00:38:36,149
which given the outrage about the
supposed data violations of the

819
00:38:36,149 --> 00:38:38,100
later LE report is, is interesting.

820
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:42,450
I mean, they wanted, they wanted access
to, to, to records that the party

821
00:38:42,509 --> 00:38:44,490
pointed out it, it had no access to it.

822
00:38:44,490 --> 00:38:47,910
Don't get people's private emails, their
private WhatsApp chats and and so on.

823
00:38:48,419 --> 00:38:53,669
Anyway, in preparation for this, the party
itself starts producing its own sort of

824
00:38:53,939 --> 00:39:00,540
submission and it's handed to these young,
extremely efficient young party staffers

825
00:39:00,540 --> 00:39:02,339
who start to do it quite obsessively.

826
00:39:03,540 --> 00:39:10,799
And in doing so for the first time, really
starts to uncover what appears to have

827
00:39:10,890 --> 00:39:18,569
been, according to the leaked report,
the, the ine ineffectiveness of the.

828
00:39:19,155 --> 00:39:26,745
Party bureaucracy prior to April, 2018 in
tackling antisemitism and other things.

829
00:39:27,615 --> 00:39:32,025
It's a, for your listeners, it's a really
simple, fundamental point to understand,

830
00:39:32,025 --> 00:39:37,905
which no one in the media in Britain
ever points out until April, 2018.

831
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:42,465
Jeremy Corbin has no control of
the bureaucracy of the Labor Party,

832
00:39:42,795 --> 00:39:45,555
and it is the bureaucracy of the
no party, specifically the dispute

833
00:39:45,555 --> 00:39:49,395
department within the governance and
legal unit, which is responsible for

834
00:39:49,395 --> 00:39:51,435
investigating antisemitism complaints.

835
00:39:51,645 --> 00:39:53,835
And Jeremy Corbin has
no control over this.

836
00:39:53,835 --> 00:39:58,425
In fact, the labor bureaucracy is,
uh, controlled by the right, by

837
00:39:58,425 --> 00:40:02,295
the precisely the people who will
then be his most ferocious critics.

838
00:40:02,775 --> 00:40:05,985
Uh, and you, you can see quite clearly
that what happens is the moment he

839
00:40:05,985 --> 00:40:11,985
brings in Jenny Formby to be General
Secretary, what actually happens is

840
00:40:12,015 --> 00:40:15,075
far from using that power to cover up.

841
00:40:15,570 --> 00:40:21,540
Antisemitism, whatever suspensions,
notar, investigation, expulsions, all go

842
00:40:21,545 --> 00:40:26,790
through the roof, which rather contradicts
the, the narrative of the media anyway.

843
00:40:27,090 --> 00:40:32,009
It's only in preparing their
submission to the E HRC that the

844
00:40:32,009 --> 00:40:37,620
party really becomes fully aware of
what was going wrong prior to 2018.

845
00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:45,030
Right now, the leak, the, so they, they
produced this 861 page report, which in

846
00:40:45,310 --> 00:40:48,840
the dying days of the Corman leadership
is suddenly presented to the leadership.

847
00:40:49,350 --> 00:40:52,110
And firstly, they're slightly
panicked cuz it contains all

848
00:40:52,110 --> 00:40:53,730
these WhatsApp conversations.

849
00:40:53,759 --> 00:40:57,300
I mean, it really is extremely, it's
it's critical of the Corbin period as

850
00:40:57,300 --> 00:40:59,070
well, critical of the Jenny Formby.

851
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,690
It's not a whitewash by any means,
but it's ferociously critical of

852
00:41:03,690 --> 00:41:07,140
the regime under Ian McNichol,
which had run the party previous.

853
00:41:07,995 --> 00:41:12,315
and some of the evidence is so explosive
that, you know, I think the people

854
00:41:12,645 --> 00:41:17,295
E even the people running Corbin's
headquarters are rather alarmed by it.

855
00:41:17,865 --> 00:41:21,675
Even more alarmed, other party, otherwise,
there's a very interesting thing happens

856
00:41:21,675 --> 00:41:26,565
here, but to the enormous frustration
of the young people who write the leak

857
00:41:26,565 --> 00:41:31,785
report, the lawyers say, We can't hand
this to the E hrc, we can't publish this.

858
00:41:31,785 --> 00:41:33,375
And they're like, Why not this?

859
00:41:33,405 --> 00:41:35,475
Here it is laid bare for the first time.

860
00:41:35,565 --> 00:41:35,655
Mm-hmm.

861
00:41:35,895 --> 00:41:38,235
. And they say, Look, they
are judging the Labor Party.

862
00:41:38,445 --> 00:41:43,905
What this report does is prove that
the Labor Party was indeed inept.

863
00:41:43,965 --> 00:41:44,205
Yeah.

864
00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:48,435
In dealing with the antisemitism, they're,
they're not judging one specific aspect.

865
00:41:48,435 --> 00:41:49,665
They're judging the party as a whole.

866
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:54,375
We can't possibly release that this
right now, therefore it's not submitted

867
00:41:54,525 --> 00:41:57,165
to the HRC very shortly afterwards.

868
00:41:57,285 --> 00:41:59,175
It's leaked in its entirety.

869
00:41:59,205 --> 00:42:02,715
Unredacted, which is a mistake cuz
it means all sorts of people's names

870
00:42:02,715 --> 00:42:05,895
are in the public domain, which
shouldn't be, you know, uh, and.

871
00:42:07,515 --> 00:42:10,605
Uh, and, and the party concludes that
the people who've leaked it or the

872
00:42:10,605 --> 00:42:12,915
people who've written it now, they
don't have any evidence of this, or

873
00:42:13,274 --> 00:42:15,464
Alexei Sayle: by this time the
party is starer rather than

874
00:42:15,464 --> 00:42:16,035
Richard Sanders: party is starer.

875
00:42:16,435 --> 00:42:19,995
Although the decision not to publish
it and not to send it to the HRC

876
00:42:19,995 --> 00:42:22,935
happens in, you know, virtually the
last week of Corbin's time in charge.

877
00:42:22,935 --> 00:42:24,375
That's not a decision by Stama.

878
00:42:24,404 --> 00:42:24,734
Alexei Sayle: Yeah.

879
00:42:24,740 --> 00:42:27,524
That's the subsequent hounding of the

880
00:42:28,125 --> 00:42:30,165
Richard Sanders: author, of the
authors and their line managers,

881
00:42:30,194 --> 00:42:32,384
Shamus Mill and and Carrie Murphy.

882
00:42:32,444 --> 00:42:32,774
Yeah.

883
00:42:33,075 --> 00:42:35,174
It happens under, under Stara.

884
00:42:35,174 --> 00:42:35,415
Yes.

885
00:42:35,565 --> 00:42:41,315
And it, it, it, as I say, it's very
hard to conclude, but that, that, that

886
00:42:41,319 --> 00:42:48,884
behavior, it, it feels vindictive and, um,
it, it feel, it feel, you know, I'm not

887
00:42:48,884 --> 00:42:54,075
presenting this as a hard fact, but it, it
feels as if these young people, you know,

888
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,125
very vulnerable young people are being
punished for having written the report at.

889
00:42:58,980 --> 00:42:59,550
Alexei Sayle: Yes.

890
00:42:59,910 --> 00:43:03,690
I mean, in a way, I suppose sometimes
you might think, well, this is just

891
00:43:03,690 --> 00:43:12,540
the in, uh, um, you know, shenanigans,
machinations of an organization

892
00:43:12,545 --> 00:43:14,850
and it could, you know, the Elite
Party is an organization in the

893
00:43:14,850 --> 00:43:19,560
same sense that, um, you know, a
fishing club or a football club or

894
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,870
you know, any, any, any organization.

895
00:43:23,055 --> 00:43:26,135
Uh, a degree of, um, internal conflict.

896
00:43:26,140 --> 00:43:32,535
But, um, this, I think this
set of shenanigan is so much

897
00:43:32,535 --> 00:43:33,705
more important, isn't it?

898
00:43:33,705 --> 00:43:40,545
I think it tells us something profound
about, um, how skewed our entire society

899
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:40,725
Richard Sanders: is.

900
00:43:40,785 --> 00:43:40,995
Yes.

901
00:43:40,995 --> 00:43:44,205
I mean, I think it, it's interesting
cuz the right of the Labor Party, of

902
00:43:44,205 --> 00:43:46,875
course, have every right to disagree
with the left of the low party.

903
00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:49,815
Um, factionalism happens
within all parties.

904
00:43:49,815 --> 00:43:53,775
It has ab every right to organize against
the left of the party, every right to

905
00:43:53,775 --> 00:43:55,605
seek power for itself within the party.

906
00:43:56,085 --> 00:43:59,985
Um, I think what, particularly our
film one was exposing is behavior that

907
00:44:00,045 --> 00:44:03,285
that goes rather beyond factionalism.

908
00:44:03,855 --> 00:44:04,635
What, what.

909
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:12,930
It appears to show is that frequently
within the party, the reaction to

910
00:44:12,930 --> 00:44:17,570
the extraordinary events of 2015
and 2016, when you get an absolute

911
00:44:17,575 --> 00:44:19,500
takeoff in the membership Yeah.

912
00:44:19,505 --> 00:44:20,490
Of the Labor Party.

913
00:44:20,730 --> 00:44:21,600
You know, it's the extraordinary thing.

914
00:44:21,605 --> 00:44:24,570
People forget now, massive
increase in membership.

915
00:44:24,575 --> 00:44:26,970
It becomes the largest political
party in Western Europe,

916
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,260
over half a million members.

917
00:44:28,380 --> 00:44:34,200
Now, you would think that political
party would be quite pleased about

918
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:35,700
this , you know, quite excited.

919
00:44:36,060 --> 00:44:40,440
What is extraordinary is that the, the
sort of visceral reaction of the Labor

920
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,000
Party and then, you know, this is partly
what we, we glean from the internal

921
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:46,590
files, but also you can see it publicly.

922
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:51,390
It's a sort of almost in visceral
revulsion towards these members.

923
00:44:51,390 --> 00:44:53,580
You can see it in the WhatsApp chance.

924
00:44:53,585 --> 00:44:54,420
They're like, Who are these?

925
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:54,840
You know?

926
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,930
And when they, they assume that it's
gonna be electoral disaster, I mean,

927
00:44:57,935 --> 00:44:59,190
just be fair to them that they're.

928
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,839
, their principle objection is that
they, they, they take the view, and

929
00:45:03,899 --> 00:45:07,710
this was a very understandable view
in 2015 and 16, that this was an act

930
00:45:07,710 --> 00:45:10,529
of a camika, the act of, of self-harm.

931
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:17,069
Now, what's interesting is that as
the 2017 election progresses, and in

932
00:45:17,075 --> 00:45:20,879
fact labor parties, the Labor Party
starts to soar in the polls and these

933
00:45:20,879 --> 00:45:22,890
enormous crowds start to turn out.

934
00:45:23,799 --> 00:45:26,100
They're saying to each
other in these, what movie?

935
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:27,359
Who the hell are these people?

936
00:45:27,660 --> 00:45:27,839
Yeah.

937
00:45:27,839 --> 00:45:29,270
Who was gonna, who are these people?

938
00:45:29,370 --> 00:45:29,580
There?

939
00:45:29,580 --> 00:45:32,940
There's no delight in the fact
that they're being proved wrong.

940
00:45:33,029 --> 00:45:33,149
No.

941
00:45:33,450 --> 00:45:36,149
And when Labor Party very on,
you know, the, the extraordinary

942
00:45:36,149 --> 00:45:39,990
portrait you get in the leaked
report of the events of action night.

943
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:46,980
The, um, the leadership within
Part D H Q are sort of ash face.

944
00:45:46,985 --> 00:45:47,500
Mm-hmm.

945
00:45:47,610 --> 00:45:49,530
, you know, they're,
they're, they're appalled.

946
00:45:49,950 --> 00:45:53,280
One of them I think, says, Ashley writes
in, in one of the WhatsApp groups,

947
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:57,180
precisely the opposite of what I have
been working for for the last two years.

948
00:45:57,330 --> 00:45:59,400
I mean, it's extraordinarily an

949
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,470
Alexei Sayle: employee of
Labor Party being upset.

950
00:46:01,470 --> 00:46:02,310
That Labor Party is

951
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,460
Richard Sanders: tremendous and they're
actually, I mean, actually, and you know,

952
00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:07,410
you don't have to rely on me, Andrew Zero.

953
00:46:07,410 --> 00:46:11,580
Or the leak report or the for report
for this, um, Gabriel Poron and

954
00:46:11,580 --> 00:46:13,140
Patrick McGuire's book left out.

955
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:13,230
Mm.

956
00:46:13,940 --> 00:46:18,050
You know, a couple of Murdoch journalists,
Murdoch employed journalists is very,

957
00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:19,460
very good actually is well worth

958
00:46:20,779 --> 00:46:22,790
Alexei Sayle: every book about this shit

959
00:46:22,850 --> 00:46:23,390
Richard Sanders: I've read.

960
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:23,570
Yeah.

961
00:46:23,810 --> 00:46:28,009
And it's very, But they, they have an
extraordinary story of Ian McNichol,

962
00:46:28,009 --> 00:46:29,300
the general secretary coming into work.

963
00:46:29,305 --> 00:46:32,779
I think it's the next morning
and somebody, the door closes and

964
00:46:32,779 --> 00:46:37,250
somebody has this smash and he's
drop kicked of VAs across the room.

965
00:46:37,250 --> 00:46:39,410
That's his reaction to that I to live

966
00:46:39,710 --> 00:46:41,060
Alexei Sayle: having tremendous success.

967
00:46:41,060 --> 00:46:41,120
He,

968
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:41,600
Richard Sanders: Yes, exactly.

969
00:46:41,605 --> 00:46:41,840
Yeah.

970
00:46:42,050 --> 00:46:48,110
Um, so they, they, they, they seem to
feel this sort of, you know, some of them

971
00:46:48,110 --> 00:46:51,350
anyway at local and national level seem
to feel this almost visceral revulsion

972
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,970
now in program one of the series, you
know, we, we particularly look at two

973
00:46:55,970 --> 00:47:01,029
places, Brighton and, and Wall, and I
think they're very interesting sequences

974
00:47:01,190 --> 00:47:05,450
where what happens is, now I'll be
careful about, I, I, I put it here, but.

975
00:47:06,695 --> 00:47:11,805
It would appear to be the case that the
local right wing or the local incumbents,

976
00:47:11,805 --> 00:47:17,085
the people who have power and have office
and the local Labor party respond to the

977
00:47:17,085 --> 00:47:22,245
enormous absurd of new members, generally
from the left, generally pro Corbin, by

978
00:47:23,205 --> 00:47:27,135
issuing a, a series of statements about
their behavior, which appear to be untrue.

979
00:47:27,435 --> 00:47:31,545
Alright, And which subsequent evidence
certainly suggests to be untrue.

980
00:47:31,665 --> 00:47:35,865
I mean, in Liverpool you have this, this
wonderful story where there's, okay,

981
00:47:35,865 --> 00:47:39,405
there's a dispute going on internally,
people are campaigning against each

982
00:47:39,405 --> 00:47:41,835
other and you always get the same thing.

983
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,885
People are accused of accessing the
Labor party's data in order to campaign.

984
00:47:47,055 --> 00:47:47,565
Okay?

985
00:47:47,565 --> 00:47:49,755
And you shouldn't have access
to the data or what have you.

986
00:47:50,235 --> 00:47:53,595
The evidence for this is, this
fella is supposedly spotted going

987
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,375
around this close in Liverpool wall,
and he only puts leaflets through

988
00:47:57,375 --> 00:47:58,545
the doors of the labor members.

989
00:47:58,845 --> 00:48:02,055
This would indicate that he
has access, illegal access.

990
00:48:02,085 --> 00:48:04,245
This do the, and there are
four witnesses to this.

991
00:48:04,815 --> 00:48:08,265
All right Now to this fellow's
enormous delight they've picked

992
00:48:08,265 --> 00:48:09,615
on a weekend when he is in London.

993
00:48:09,705 --> 00:48:09,825
Yeah.

994
00:48:10,275 --> 00:48:11,115
And he can prove it.

995
00:48:11,115 --> 00:48:16,365
He's got the, you know, the trade and
so, you know, it's clearly not true and

996
00:48:16,365 --> 00:48:19,905
that you have four witnesses who've all
sworn to the fact that they saw him.

997
00:48:20,085 --> 00:48:20,265
Yes.

998
00:48:20,265 --> 00:48:21,375
So it's clearly not true.

999
00:48:21,495 --> 00:48:24,255
Now he presents this evidence with
great delight to lay party edge

1000
00:48:24,255 --> 00:48:28,245
quarters, and the owner reaction is one
senior official says, Hmm, good job.

1001
00:48:28,245 --> 00:48:29,085
We didn't expel him.

1002
00:48:29,295 --> 00:48:29,625
Yeah.

1003
00:48:30,165 --> 00:48:32,265
And they do, in any case,
expel him shortly afterwards.

1004
00:48:32,535 --> 00:48:33,015
Anyway.

1005
00:48:33,045 --> 00:48:33,315
Yeah.

1006
00:48:33,345 --> 00:48:38,175
So what you have is a situation
where there's a remarkable remark,

1007
00:48:38,385 --> 00:48:42,675
little interest in engaging all
these new members in, in debate.

1008
00:48:42,885 --> 00:48:45,805
I mean, you know, just because of all
these people have joined, you don't

1009
00:48:45,810 --> 00:48:47,115
simply hand the party over to them.

1010
00:48:47,115 --> 00:48:48,195
That's that's fair enough.

1011
00:48:48,225 --> 00:48:48,495
Yeah.

1012
00:48:49,185 --> 00:48:57,405
But the reaction seems to be to simply
utilize the rights control of the

1013
00:48:57,405 --> 00:49:01,275
party machinery to bring disciplinary
measures against them and have them

1014
00:49:01,275 --> 00:49:03,915
expelled and, or, or, and, and they.

1015
00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:08,610
Labor HQ appears, appears
to be Trump charges.

1016
00:49:08,850 --> 00:49:09,060
Yes.

1017
00:49:09,150 --> 00:49:12,300
Well, charges that often appears Trump.

1018
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:18,120
Um, and, and, and, and, but
Party HQ appears to just simply

1019
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,450
go along with this, and there's
very often very little scrutiny.

1020
00:49:21,810 --> 00:49:25,200
So you, Liverpool policy and
Brighton in the notorious spitting

1021
00:49:25,690 --> 00:49:29,410
incident in Brighton, which appears
not to take place to, and, and it.

1022
00:49:30,435 --> 00:49:34,125
Peter, you know, gets very angry about
Peter Oborne gets very angry about this

1023
00:49:34,125 --> 00:49:35,535
in the series, and I think he's right.

1024
00:49:35,925 --> 00:49:38,595
What happens is that it's
the most disgraceful.

1025
00:49:38,595 --> 00:49:40,245
Demonization, Yes.

1026
00:49:40,275 --> 00:49:42,345
Of perfectly decent.

1027
00:49:42,345 --> 00:49:42,705
Yes.

1028
00:49:42,765 --> 00:49:43,215
Really.

1029
00:49:43,220 --> 00:49:43,845
Labor party

1030
00:49:43,845 --> 00:49:44,505
Alexei Sayle: thoroughly decent

1031
00:49:44,505 --> 00:49:44,775
Richard Sanders: people.

1032
00:49:45,765 --> 00:49:49,145
For example, in liberal policy,
they're being accused of homophobia.

1033
00:49:49,545 --> 00:49:49,935
Okay.

1034
00:49:49,965 --> 00:49:50,295
Yeah.

1035
00:49:51,105 --> 00:49:55,155
And they're being accused of, I mean it's
sort of 1970s Larry Grace and stuff of

1036
00:49:55,155 --> 00:49:57,795
making limp wrist gestures and so on.

1037
00:49:58,005 --> 00:50:01,755
And then you go and you meet these people,
which of course journalists never did.

1038
00:50:01,965 --> 00:50:06,345
And they're perfectly decent,
responsible, mature trade unionists

1039
00:50:06,345 --> 00:50:09,825
very often, very often who have,
you know, gay or bisexual children.

1040
00:50:09,825 --> 00:50:12,435
And it, and it's quite ludicrous.

1041
00:50:12,555 --> 00:50:16,305
And what I found particularly
mortifying, was the readiness

1042
00:50:16,305 --> 00:50:17,835
of the sort of London based.

1043
00:50:18,765 --> 00:50:21,155
To just swallow any,

1044
00:50:21,155 --> 00:50:23,835
Alexei Sayle: Yeah, well you've got,
you've got there, you've got Tessa Jo

1045
00:50:23,865 --> 00:50:29,895
who had many, many skeletons in her
own closet, um, being allowed to make

1046
00:50:29,895 --> 00:50:34,005
these accusations and then people she's
accusing of given no right or reply

1047
00:50:34,005 --> 00:50:34,515
Richard Sanders: whatsoever.

1048
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:36,675
And the media had no interest
in going and talking to them.

1049
00:50:36,765 --> 00:50:36,825
No.

1050
00:50:36,945 --> 00:50:40,155
Um, I mean you see this in my film
as well, where we go and talk to Rika

1051
00:50:40,155 --> 00:50:41,805
Bur and Helen Marks in Liverpool.

1052
00:50:41,805 --> 00:50:42,735
Riverside, Yeah.

1053
00:50:43,005 --> 00:50:44,295
Liverpool Riverside again.

1054
00:50:46,220 --> 00:50:50,310
A constituency, Labor party, Louise
Elman, um, who had been, I think

1055
00:50:50,310 --> 00:50:53,160
it's the chair of the Labor Friends
of Israel, something like that.

1056
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,350
Anyway, um, she was my mom's mp.

1057
00:50:55,620 --> 00:50:55,950
Yeah.

1058
00:50:55,950 --> 00:51:00,510
And so, and you'll be familiar with,
with this, you know, Liverpool Riverside

1059
00:51:00,510 --> 00:51:06,390
was portrayed as the sort of dark heart
of the labor antisemitism scandal.

1060
00:51:06,750 --> 00:51:10,650
Louis Alman was very vocal about
the appalling abuse she'd received.

1061
00:51:10,650 --> 00:51:15,810
So you actually do journalism and go
there and travel to the dark cart, and

1062
00:51:15,810 --> 00:51:21,690
you meet the two women involved in the
story That is is in the Panorama film.

1063
00:51:21,695 --> 00:51:21,810
Yeah.

1064
00:51:21,810 --> 00:51:22,830
About that constituency.

1065
00:51:22,830 --> 00:51:23,010
Yeah.

1066
00:51:23,370 --> 00:51:26,910
And what do you find, you find too
little old Jewish ladies who didn't

1067
00:51:26,910 --> 00:51:30,120
say what they're said to have said
and have a tape recording to prove

1068
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:30,210
Alexei Sayle: it.

1069
00:51:30,215 --> 00:51:30,540
Yeah.

1070
00:51:30,810 --> 00:51:33,240
And yet that, that they
were completely ignored.

1071
00:51:33,330 --> 00:51:33,690
Richard Sanders: Yeah.

1072
00:51:33,790 --> 00:51:34,070
Yeah.

1073
00:51:34,070 --> 00:51:38,970
And, and, and, and as I say, you know,
I've said this before, um, Joshua Funnel,

1074
00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:44,430
Uncovered that tape recording a week
after the, the panorama went to, to air.

1075
00:51:44,430 --> 00:51:44,490
Yeah.

1076
00:51:44,490 --> 00:51:46,200
And, and published it in, in the canary.

1077
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:47,250
I've written about it before.

1078
00:51:47,250 --> 00:51:48,090
A Middle East eye.

1079
00:51:48,450 --> 00:51:51,000
No one came a down, you know,
No, no one still gives a down,

1080
00:51:51,005 --> 00:51:53,850
it would say, but no, it's, it's
got a little bit more prominence.

1081
00:51:54,030 --> 00:52:02,100
But it's, it was the, the readiness of,
of the national media to simply swallow

1082
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,770
any nonsense about the labor rugby file.

1083
00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:04,830
Yeah.

1084
00:52:04,830 --> 00:52:05,940
And it was disgraceful.

1085
00:52:05,945 --> 00:52:08,100
It was sort of metropolitan snobbery.

1086
00:52:08,580 --> 00:52:13,050
Um, and, and really, you know, the
absolute slandering and defaming

1087
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,640
of people whose only crime was to
engage in the political process.

1088
00:52:17,730 --> 00:52:20,850
And there was a guy in the, in Brighton,
I think, who says, My, my, my first

1089
00:52:20,850 --> 00:52:22,380
mistake was to join the Labor Party.

1090
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:24,480
My second mistake was to win an election.

1091
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:25,380
The labor person.

1092
00:52:25,380 --> 00:52:25,620
Yeah.

1093
00:52:25,710 --> 00:52:25,870
Yeah.

1094
00:52:25,950 --> 00:52:27,900
And all hell broke
loose about their heads.

1095
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:28,710
It was disgraceful.

1096
00:52:28,740 --> 00:52:29,130
Yeah.

1097
00:52:29,370 --> 00:52:30,030
Alexei Sayle: Unbelievable.

1098
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,190
I mean, so, I mean, what, what now do
you think really, I suppose, is the,

1099
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:40,485
Richard Sanders: Well, I mean, I
think, um, I think, you know, I'm a

1100
00:52:40,485 --> 00:52:44,985
journalist and what I care about is
journalism and I think journalists,

1101
00:52:44,985 --> 00:52:46,725
there really ought to be a reckon.

1102
00:52:46,965 --> 00:52:48,075
It's a very interesting thing.

1103
00:52:48,375 --> 00:52:53,625
M Lynch, who, who you know, is
a very able media performer.

1104
00:52:53,625 --> 00:52:56,265
I'm not sure he's the genius he's,
he's made out to be, but you know,

1105
00:52:56,325 --> 00:53:00,945
when you and I were kids working class
blokes, trade union leaders, and they

1106
00:53:01,295 --> 00:53:04,155
normally were blokes, well, you'd
certainly see the mentality all the time.

1107
00:53:04,185 --> 00:53:06,015
Articulate, working class socialists.

1108
00:53:06,020 --> 00:53:06,075
Yeah.

1109
00:53:06,075 --> 00:53:07,725
Were not some sort of freak novel.

1110
00:53:08,415 --> 00:53:13,305
In media, and I think both our political
and media class have become much narrower

1111
00:53:13,305 --> 00:53:17,205
and more middle class and more sort
of metropolitan than they used to be.

1112
00:53:17,685 --> 00:53:21,045
And I think it's very, you know,
Mick Lynch sort of falls like a

1113
00:53:21,045 --> 00:53:22,965
pebble on a still pond, doesn't he?

1114
00:53:23,805 --> 00:53:26,505
Alexei Sayle: But it's also the fact
that he just says, I mean, and it's a

1115
00:53:26,535 --> 00:53:28,395
lesson for, I suppose for Covin as well.

1116
00:53:28,645 --> 00:53:31,215
He just said he would, he
constantly says, No, that's a lie.

1117
00:53:31,455 --> 00:53:32,445
No, that's not true.

1118
00:53:32,715 --> 00:53:35,145
No, you're making that or,
No, that didn't happen.

1119
00:53:35,150 --> 00:53:38,165
You know, in a much, in a, in a way
that I think the left, And I think

1120
00:53:38,165 --> 00:53:41,355
Richard Sanders: I, I think, you
know, I think there's openings,

1121
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,055
as I said, I treat the whole thing
as a market opening in a way.

1122
00:53:44,060 --> 00:53:46,605
And the via media attempts
to do, do what it does.

1123
00:53:46,725 --> 00:53:46,785
Yeah.

1124
00:53:46,815 --> 00:53:48,405
But I think there are
a lot of young people.

1125
00:53:48,995 --> 00:53:53,944
The, the whole Corbin thing has now
simply been relegated to history

1126
00:53:53,944 --> 00:53:57,305
as if it was some sort of bizarre
freakish, extremist aberration.

1127
00:53:57,605 --> 00:54:00,725
The two, if, if you are
our generation, okay?

1128
00:54:00,845 --> 00:54:03,785
Your, your political outlook is
shaped by the elections, and I'm

1129
00:54:03,785 --> 00:54:04,955
slightly younger than you, Alex.

1130
00:54:05,225 --> 00:54:12,395
Um, the, our political outlook is shaped
entirely by, um, two elections, 83 and 97.

1131
00:54:12,395 --> 00:54:16,055
And I have to admit, I bought into
this, those two elections appeared to

1132
00:54:16,060 --> 00:54:20,225
show that regardless of whatever you
believed, the further left you moved,

1133
00:54:20,465 --> 00:54:23,555
the fewer votes you got, the further
right, you moved towards the center

1134
00:54:23,555 --> 00:54:25,924
triangulation, the more votes you got.

1135
00:54:26,855 --> 00:54:29,674
When Corbin was elected to zero, I
thought, Well, I'd rather like him and

1136
00:54:29,674 --> 00:54:33,305
I rather agree with, with a lot of what
he says, but this seems absolutely daft

1137
00:54:33,310 --> 00:54:36,875
and they're just clearly eradicating
themselves to electoral irrelevance.

1138
00:54:37,384 --> 00:54:42,035
Then you had the extraordinary
phenomenon of the 2017 election, okay,

1139
00:54:42,035 --> 00:54:44,045
which just blew this out of the water.

1140
00:54:44,105 --> 00:54:44,525
Yes, and.

1141
00:54:45,765 --> 00:54:49,964
I was amazed by the crew to which my
colleagues in mainstream media and people

1142
00:54:49,964 --> 00:54:56,055
of my generation simply just carried on
as before, as if this hadn't happened.

1143
00:54:56,355 --> 00:54:56,745
Yes.

1144
00:54:56,835 --> 00:55:01,785
And, and, and now when you look at
sort of analysis of modern British

1145
00:55:01,785 --> 00:55:06,075
history and the strategy that a bud
is pursue and so on, the, the media

1146
00:55:06,134 --> 00:55:11,745
simply writes the 2017 election out
of completely as if it never happened.

1147
00:55:11,745 --> 00:55:11,835
Yeah.

1148
00:55:11,835 --> 00:55:15,615
And the 2019 election, the Labor
Party got a higher share of the

1149
00:55:15,620 --> 00:55:18,944
vote than it had in 2010 and 2015.

1150
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:19,005
Yeah.

1151
00:55:19,875 --> 00:55:23,714
You know, even that and one by quite
a margin amongst people under 50.

1152
00:55:24,105 --> 00:55:28,095
So I, I think, I think in
time, I think this simple.

1153
00:55:28,515 --> 00:55:33,465
Ignoring of the perspective of a huge
chunk of the British population isn't

1154
00:55:33,470 --> 00:55:37,515
tenable and I, I, I, I'd hope it
would, you know, create openings for

1155
00:55:37,515 --> 00:55:42,825
younger journalists coming through to,
to challenge the sort of stranglehold

1156
00:55:42,825 --> 00:55:48,795
of say, you know, the, the sort of
guardian commentary has on, um, on, on.

1157
00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:52,390
On mainstream or, you know, what
would regard itself as liberal left?

1158
00:55:52,420 --> 00:55:52,870
Yeah.

1159
00:55:52,930 --> 00:55:55,930
Journalism and I, I think
there is an enormous opening,

1160
00:55:55,930 --> 00:55:56,901
cause I think there's, Cause at

1161
00:55:57,020 --> 00:55:59,060
Alexei Sayle: the moment that's what I
always say is that, you know, we're not

1162
00:55:59,065 --> 00:56:02,470
right all the time socialist, but there's
a huge, there's like, I don't know,

1163
00:56:02,500 --> 00:56:07,140
four, 5 million people that, you know,
ba you know, anti, you know, you know,

1164
00:56:07,140 --> 00:56:10,540
you take the 2 million people that went
on the Iraq mark and then drop it March

1165
00:56:10,540 --> 00:56:12,040
and then double it or whatever, you know?

1166
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:12,279
Mm-hmm.

1167
00:56:12,500 --> 00:56:18,580
, who believe in, you know, nationalization,
anti-colonialism, Palestine, all that

1168
00:56:18,580 --> 00:56:21,490
stuff we're completely locked out.

1169
00:56:21,490 --> 00:56:25,000
The political, the parliamentary
process at the moment, I can't,

1170
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:30,995
I mean, I'd like it's, I find it,
um, Uh, make, uh, pleasing that

1171
00:56:30,995 --> 00:56:32,195
you think that that can't go on

1172
00:56:32,195 --> 00:56:32,435
Richard Sanders: forever?

1173
00:56:32,765 --> 00:56:34,325
I don't think it can go on
forever because, because

1174
00:56:34,325 --> 00:56:35,615
there's, that group is so big.

1175
00:56:35,705 --> 00:56:37,145
I mean, the, the labor right.

1176
00:56:37,175 --> 00:56:41,795
Always related to momentum and the cite
op search as if they were dealing with

1177
00:56:42,095 --> 00:56:47,225
militant and the Socialist Workers party
and various sort Trotsky sects of the

1178
00:56:47,225 --> 00:56:50,375
eighties, they, they never grasp that
they were dealing with a mass movement.

1179
00:56:50,375 --> 00:56:52,115
They were, they were dealing
with something very different.

1180
00:56:52,145 --> 00:56:52,445
Yeah.

1181
00:56:52,685 --> 00:56:59,435
Um, and, and I, I don't, And
also different from 83, there's

1182
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,385
a huge age differential here.

1183
00:57:01,535 --> 00:57:07,715
As I say, in 2009, even in 2019, Corbin
won by a lot among people under 50.

1184
00:57:07,715 --> 00:57:08,195
Yeah.

1185
00:57:08,315 --> 00:57:11,285
You know, and, and by a hell of a
lot amongst, under people under 40.

1186
00:57:11,345 --> 00:57:11,645
Yeah.

1187
00:57:11,855 --> 00:57:15,595
And I think that it's bubbling
away and it will come to the

1188
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:16,865
fore again, at the moment.

1189
00:57:16,865 --> 00:57:19,835
The left is in, in, in complete disarray.

1190
00:57:20,165 --> 00:57:24,335
I think, I think it's a sh on one level,
it's a shame that the implosion of the.

1191
00:57:25,215 --> 00:57:28,245
Government is so extraordinary
that I think that everybody

1192
00:57:28,245 --> 00:57:30,735
may well win by considerable.

1193
00:57:30,735 --> 00:57:33,615
It might might well be that it'll
win by a considerable majority, and

1194
00:57:33,615 --> 00:57:37,185
that will mean all sorts of problems
can be swep swept under the carpet.

1195
00:57:37,365 --> 00:57:38,085
Because I mean, one of

1196
00:57:38,335 --> 00:57:40,635
Alexei Sayle: the things that they're
doing very consciously is making sure that

1197
00:57:40,635 --> 00:57:42,645
only right wingers get to standards MP

1198
00:57:42,855 --> 00:57:43,615
Richard Sanders: now that the Yeah.

1199
00:57:43,615 --> 00:57:45,165
The Parliament relay,
but was pretty Right.

1200
00:57:45,165 --> 00:57:45,855
We can just start with you.

1201
00:57:45,855 --> 00:57:46,095
Yeah.

1202
00:57:46,095 --> 00:57:47,745
Alexei Sayle: And getting
more, getting worse.

1203
00:57:47,745 --> 00:57:48,075
Yeah.

1204
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:48,135
Yeah.

1205
00:57:48,140 --> 00:57:53,025
And that obviously the attack on Sam
Terry and on, you know, and, uh, the

1206
00:57:53,025 --> 00:57:57,795
other, uh, you know, the deselection
of, of the, I mean all the deselection,

1207
00:57:58,245 --> 00:58:02,415
uh, contests at the moment, but all
against left wing mps aren't Yeah.

1208
00:58:03,225 --> 00:58:05,595
Not that Sam Terry is actually
that bleeding left wing.

1209
00:58:05,805 --> 00:58:06,285
No,

1210
00:58:06,525 --> 00:58:08,415
Richard Sanders: I, I, I think
that'll, that'll gather pace.

1211
00:58:08,595 --> 00:58:11,475
I think, you know, looking
at in broad terms, the thing

1212
00:58:11,475 --> 00:58:14,055
that would break the hold.

1213
00:58:14,745 --> 00:58:18,525
These two parties on the
British system would be pr.

1214
00:58:18,655 --> 00:58:19,145
Yeah.

1215
00:58:19,145 --> 00:58:22,635
And, and, and, and you know, they, you
do feel more and more the desperate

1216
00:58:22,635 --> 00:58:25,995
need for PR just to loosen up and
free up the British political system.

1217
00:58:26,385 --> 00:58:31,575
And, um, if, you know, this was
supposed to be coming in 97 and

1218
00:58:31,575 --> 00:58:33,705
of course Blair then forgot all
about it cause he didn't need it.

1219
00:58:33,705 --> 00:58:34,545
Cause he'd won by so much.

1220
00:58:35,475 --> 00:58:36,375
And I have a nasty feeling.

1221
00:58:36,375 --> 00:58:37,545
The same might happen this time.

1222
00:58:37,785 --> 00:58:38,205
Yes.

1223
00:58:38,625 --> 00:58:41,295
Although I, I, I find it hard
to imagine Stama winning the

1224
00:58:41,295 --> 00:58:42,525
same sort of majority Blair.

1225
00:58:43,650 --> 00:58:44,400
Alexei Sayle: Yes.

1226
00:58:44,690 --> 00:58:49,230
Or being as, yeah, serving
more than one term if he does.

1227
00:58:49,230 --> 00:58:49,530
Really?

1228
00:58:49,530 --> 00:58:50,730
Cuz he's such a dickhead

1229
00:58:51,990 --> 00:58:53,040
. 
Richard Sanders: Well, you might say that.

1230
00:58:53,610 --> 00:58:55,260
Um, yes.

1231
00:58:55,260 --> 00:58:57,240
I mean, Blair, what everyone
thinks of Blair was very,

1232
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:58,860
very good at being Tony Blair.

1233
00:58:58,890 --> 00:59:01,860
Whereas Sharma, who appears
to have decided that he, his

1234
00:59:01,860 --> 00:59:03,090
job is to beat any player.

1235
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:05,320
very good at being Tony Blair.

1236
00:59:05,470 --> 00:59:06,080
He's not

1237
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:07,980
Alexei Sayle: very good
at anything, I think.

1238
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:13,470
Well, that's a remarkably, uh, upbeat, uh,
conclusion I think to end this podcast.

1239
00:59:13,470 --> 00:59:14,080
It is, isn't I?

1240
00:59:14,110 --> 00:59:14,640
I haven't

1241
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,620
Richard Sanders: thought that, that
I might be upbeat about something.

1242
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:21,750
Yeah, I think, I think you can't,
you know, that you can't, you

1243
00:59:21,750 --> 00:59:23,280
can't beat people down forever.

1244
00:59:23,460 --> 00:59:25,050
And I think also our.

1245
00:59:25,875 --> 00:59:26,745
series.

1246
00:59:27,105 --> 00:59:30,585
You know, the people that deter seem to
be determined not to listen to her eye.

1247
00:59:30,585 --> 00:59:34,095
Would urge anyone listening to please,
please share as widely as you can.

1248
00:59:34,095 --> 00:59:37,185
The films, cuz it's sort of, it's
like a sort of subterranean book.

1249
00:59:37,190 --> 00:59:38,865
It's only gonna be
spread by word of mouth.

1250
00:59:38,895 --> 00:59:39,165
Yeah.

1251
00:59:39,165 --> 00:59:42,885
You know, it's, were clearly not
gonna get any, some is that, uh, Yeah.

1252
00:59:43,185 --> 00:59:46,635
But I'm, there's maybe gonna be an
implication, amplification from the

1253
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,075
mainstream, but it is sort of slowly

1254
00:59:48,075 --> 00:59:51,075
Alexei Sayle: seeping out there
and the odd like sort of, you know,

1255
00:59:51,105 --> 00:59:54,465
kind of like George Maia going,
Oh, what's the dear, I didn't know

1256
00:59:54,465 --> 00:59:55,695
about this Michael Crick as well.

1257
00:59:55,695 --> 00:59:55,875
Yeah.

1258
00:59:55,875 --> 00:59:56,715
Michael Crick.

1259
00:59:56,775 --> 00:59:56,955
Richard Sanders: Yeah.

1260
00:59:56,955 --> 01:00:00,205
I get the Hitchens blessing,
you know, and yeah.

1261
01:00:00,205 --> 01:00:00,485
Yeah.

1262
01:00:01,035 --> 01:00:04,904
And I think also,  this attitude,
particularly by the bbc, that if

1263
01:00:04,904 --> 01:00:07,215
we just keep very quiet, no one
will notice it ever happened.

1264
01:00:07,645 --> 01:00:08,444
, you know it.

1265
01:00:09,075 --> 01:00:11,355
I remember the observer haven't
written about it, so we're all right.

1266
01:00:11,625 --> 01:00:13,575
It is very old fashioned.

1267
01:00:13,580 --> 01:00:16,875
The, the, the clip involving Ben
Westman and Rika Bird in Liverpool.

1268
01:00:16,995 --> 01:00:22,785
Riverside has been, That clip has been
shared a million times on social media.

1269
01:00:22,815 --> 01:00:23,055
Yes.

1270
01:00:23,055 --> 01:00:23,884
And you can't

1271
01:00:23,890 --> 01:00:27,915
Alexei Sayle: really, this is this man
terrified by these two elderly brought

1272
01:00:27,915 --> 01:00:33,045
to tears by these two elderly Jewish
ladies who didn't say what he says.

1273
01:00:33,315 --> 01:00:34,665
Richard Sanders: They said, That's right.

1274
01:00:34,965 --> 01:00:37,545
For all brick and birders across
since been expelled anyway.

1275
01:00:38,295 --> 01:00:38,775
And I said,

1276
01:00:38,805 --> 01:00:39,525
Alexei Sayle: Daughter, Joe.

1277
01:00:39,525 --> 01:00:39,975
Of course.

1278
01:00:41,415 --> 01:00:41,625
Yeah.

1279
01:00:42,015 --> 01:00:45,795
Tell says a lot of idiots sort of go
on about the ownership of Al Jazeer.

1280
01:00:45,795 --> 01:00:48,255
Is it worth it addressing that or I don't.

1281
01:00:48,255 --> 01:00:48,285
Oh

1282
01:00:48,285 --> 01:00:48,555
Richard Sanders: God.

1283
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,055
Cause I've never quite
got the lines straight.

1284
01:00:50,060 --> 01:00:50,145
Yeah.

1285
01:00:50,245 --> 01:00:54,465
I mean, all I would say in response
to that is, you know, if I forever

1286
01:00:54,465 --> 01:01:00,060
for a moment came under any sort
of, Editorial pressure, uh, to, to

1287
01:01:00,060 --> 01:01:01,560
curb my journalism by the owners.

1288
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:02,850
And I wouldn't have worked on the project.

1289
01:01:02,850 --> 01:01:03,810
I mean, yeah.

1290
01:01:04,020 --> 01:01:08,580
And um, I mean obviously if I was making
a film about conditions at World Cup

1291
01:01:08,580 --> 01:01:10,290
Stadiums, I wouldn't make it brow to zero.

1292
01:01:10,350 --> 01:01:10,560
No.

1293
01:01:10,740 --> 01:01:11,130
You know?

1294
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,610
Um, but in this instance there's
no editor or interference

1295
01:01:14,610 --> 01:01:15,600
at all, and it's a subject.

1296
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:17,520
Clearly they were the
only ones prepared to.

1297
01:01:17,730 --> 01:01:18,089
Yeah,

1298
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:18,960
Alexei Sayle: fair enough.

1299
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:19,350
I think.

1300
01:01:19,860 --> 01:01:20,549
Well, there you go.

1301
01:01:20,610 --> 01:01:21,600
Upbeat conclusion.

1302
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:21,690
Yes.

1303
01:01:21,870 --> 01:01:22,200
Onwards.

1304
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:23,009
Comrades.

1305
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:24,960
. 
Richard Sanders: Thank you Richard.

1306
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:25,740
Thank you for having me.

1307
01:01:26,279 --> 01:01:28,049
Alexei Sayle: It's been
a absolute pleasure.

1308
01:01:28,049 --> 01:01:29,089
It's, uh, yeah.

1309
01:01:29,450 --> 01:01:30,250
Brilliant.

1310
01:01:46,049 --> 01:01:46,930
Hello everybody.

1311
01:01:46,930 --> 01:01:49,799
We thought that was the end of the
podcast, but we've decided to come back.

1312
01:01:49,805 --> 01:01:51,170
It's two weeks later.

1313
01:01:52,029 --> 01:01:55,330
We've had 11 different chancellors
of the ex checker, and there's

1314
01:01:55,629 --> 01:01:58,870
been more developments in the
John, we and Panorama case.

1315
01:01:58,870 --> 01:02:03,399
So, uh, Richard has come back
and, uh, tell us what, uh, what's

1316
01:02:03,404 --> 01:02:04,240
Richard Sanders: going on now, Richard?

1317
01:02:04,450 --> 01:02:08,770
So when I was with you before, I made the
point that John, we and the BBC appeared

1318
01:02:08,830 --> 01:02:12,609
to be responding to the allegations
against us by simply pretending they

1319
01:02:12,609 --> 01:02:16,299
didn't happen by, by essentially
saying, We stand by our journalism.

1320
01:02:16,299 --> 01:02:16,990
And that was it.

1321
01:02:17,020 --> 01:02:18,819
Not to respond to the
specific allegations.

1322
01:02:18,819 --> 01:02:23,500
Now, almost immediately we'd done that
interview, John, We produced online a

1323
01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:28,870
six and a half thousand word article,
um, where he very definitely did decide

1324
01:02:28,870 --> 01:02:32,230
to respond to the allegations, but
it, it, it's an extraordinary read.

1325
01:02:32,230 --> 01:02:33,250
It can be found online.

1326
01:02:33,250 --> 01:02:35,200
He, he wrote it for a
thing called the article.

1327
01:02:35,319 --> 01:02:36,339
Um, so read it.

1328
01:02:36,580 --> 01:02:40,629
Your listeners can find it online and,
and read it and make their own minds up.

1329
01:02:41,109 --> 01:02:46,089
But essentially there are four very
concrete allegations in the film.

1330
01:02:47,410 --> 01:02:49,120
The article by John, we.

1331
01:02:50,250 --> 01:02:56,370
deals with half, or really less than half
of one of them and convincingly, but yeah.

1332
01:02:56,370 --> 01:02:59,310
Well, we'll come to his
arguments about it, you know,

1333
01:02:59,310 --> 01:03:01,800
the enormously detailed piece.

1334
01:03:01,860 --> 01:03:01,950
Mm-hmm.

1335
01:03:02,250 --> 01:03:06,870
, but he's the, the, the, the sequences
in the film that I think most people

1336
01:03:06,875 --> 01:03:11,040
have found most striking, you know,
the sequence about Ben Westerman,

1337
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:15,420
Enrika bird up in Liverpool, where
the, the, the recorded evidence would

1338
01:03:15,420 --> 01:03:19,050
certainly suggest his account of
their, their meeting was inaccurate.

1339
01:03:19,770 --> 01:03:23,640
The Izzy Langa story where she
claimed she was told Hitler was right.

1340
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:27,000
Hitler didn't go far enough
in the Labor party every day.

1341
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:27,490
Yeah.

1342
01:03:27,930 --> 01:03:30,210
You know, uh, various
extraordinary things.

1343
01:03:30,690 --> 01:03:33,300
What he's focused on is
our story about shameless.

1344
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:34,890
Email.

1345
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:41,370
Now, the, the main point of that story was
that we felt it had been unfairly edited.

1346
01:03:41,370 --> 01:03:46,980
The context had been removed, um, that
Mel was referring very specifically

1347
01:03:46,985 --> 01:03:51,930
to a Jewish party member and, and, and
referring very specifically to those

1348
01:03:51,930 --> 01:03:54,090
situations where Jews were being accused.

1349
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,500
Um, and, and the Panorama program
simply missed out that context.

1350
01:03:58,500 --> 01:04:00,750
Now, for us, that was the
principle point of that sequence.

1351
01:04:00,750 --> 01:04:03,690
And, and, uh, John Way
doesn't address that at all.

1352
01:04:03,900 --> 01:04:07,740
What he does address is something
which is really just a single sentence

1353
01:04:07,740 --> 01:04:13,830
in the film, which is to say that,
um, in fact, in fact, shame as Melon

1354
01:04:13,830 --> 01:04:18,660
was responding to a request for
information from party headquarters,

1355
01:04:18,660 --> 01:04:22,200
from the disputes, well, from the
person who oversaw the disputes team.

1356
01:04:23,595 --> 01:04:26,985
So in our telling, that would
undermine the argument that

1357
01:04:26,985 --> 01:04:28,395
the leadership was interfering.

1358
01:04:28,485 --> 01:04:30,255
Now it's very interesting
what he does here actually.

1359
01:04:30,255 --> 01:04:33,975
I mean, it's, although it's terribly
specific point, he's hond in on,

1360
01:04:34,275 --> 01:04:38,325
it's actually very interesting to
hone in on that point and to really

1361
01:04:38,325 --> 01:04:39,465
pick apart what happens there.

1362
01:04:39,465 --> 01:04:41,115
And I'll, I'll whisper it very, very fast.

1363
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:43,875
I won't take six and a half
thousand words, I promise.

1364
01:04:43,875 --> 01:04:44,835
I promise we won't.

1365
01:04:45,015 --> 01:04:50,745
Well, very, very briefly what happens
is, This website called Palestine

1366
01:04:50,745 --> 01:04:53,355
Live is exposed by a dossier.

1367
01:04:53,475 --> 01:04:53,745
Okay?

1368
01:04:53,745 --> 01:04:57,195
And this is out there in the press
as, as containing antisemitic

1369
01:04:57,195 --> 01:04:59,175
statements and rhetoric and, and so on.

1370
01:04:59,535 --> 01:05:04,605
James Schneider at in the Leader's office
reads this and is, is horrified by it.

1371
01:05:04,605 --> 01:05:09,645
He feels some of it is, is genuinely
antisemitic and, uh, rings up the

1372
01:05:09,645 --> 01:05:13,485
disputes team at part headquarters to
say, Well, what are we doing about this?

1373
01:05:13,635 --> 01:05:17,655
To find that they're not doing anything at
all about it anyway, They, at that point,

1374
01:05:17,655 --> 01:05:19,005
they do stop doing something about it.

1375
01:05:19,125 --> 01:05:23,565
So yes, on one level, um, the.

1376
01:05:24,135 --> 01:05:25,335
Initiative initially here.

1377
01:05:25,335 --> 01:05:28,485
It does come from the leader's office,
but I think you come back to this again

1378
01:05:28,485 --> 01:05:31,995
and again and again, and it's a thing that
has been totally absence in the reporting.

1379
01:05:31,995 --> 01:05:36,105
That when you do hone in and focus on
instances where the leader's office do

1380
01:05:36,105 --> 01:05:40,845
appear to have intervened, invariably
they're inter intervening to speed

1381
01:05:40,845 --> 01:05:42,225
things up and make them tougher.

1382
01:05:42,225 --> 01:05:42,525
Mm-hmm.

1383
01:05:42,945 --> 01:05:47,885
. Now the e HRC report, which of course
damned, um, Corbin, if you actually

1384
01:05:47,890 --> 01:05:51,495
read it carefully and you have to read
it very carefully, it acknowledge.

1385
01:05:52,085 --> 01:05:55,485
This and, and it, it takes the
extraordinary argument that

1386
01:05:55,875 --> 01:06:00,335
the aim of the intervention is
irrelevant simply by intervening.

1387
01:06:00,339 --> 01:06:03,045
They are undermining the process
and therefore that's antisemitic.

1388
01:06:03,315 --> 01:06:07,245
So in other words, if Corbin responds
to the immense pressure on him to

1389
01:06:07,245 --> 01:06:11,065
do something, to get a grip by,
Doing something and getting a grip.

1390
01:06:11,365 --> 01:06:11,695
Yes.

1391
01:06:11,785 --> 01:06:13,525
That in itself Yes.

1392
01:06:13,525 --> 01:06:14,245
Is antisemitic.

1393
01:06:14,365 --> 01:06:14,545
Yeah.

1394
01:06:14,545 --> 01:06:16,645
And it's absolutely absurd logic.

1395
01:06:16,650 --> 01:06:17,025
Yeah.

1396
01:06:17,025 --> 01:06:19,145
And that, but that's the EHRs, he's logic.

1397
01:06:19,145 --> 01:06:19,795
That's the general example

1398
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,465
Alexei Sayle: of the fucking bullshit
through the fucking black mirror

1399
01:06:22,465 --> 01:06:23,905
world that, you know, this is

1400
01:06:23,965 --> 01:06:24,325
Richard Sanders: Yeah.

1401
01:06:24,325 --> 01:06:28,105
And, and, and, and actually if you, I
mean, you know, listeners do want to

1402
01:06:28,105 --> 01:06:31,165
sort of really hone in on the thing
that John Weir isri writing about.

1403
01:06:31,585 --> 01:06:34,705
You know, it is indeed slightly
complex that one who contacts

1404
01:06:34,705 --> 01:06:37,915
who first and who's responding to
who, you know, John Weir is right.

1405
01:06:37,915 --> 01:06:43,375
It's not straightforwardly that,
um, where responds out of the blue

1406
01:06:43,380 --> 01:06:44,905
that, that he's correct in that.

1407
01:06:45,055 --> 01:06:49,345
But when you really, when you, um,
mil not where that's right now, Mil

1408
01:06:50,275 --> 01:06:51,865
is not responding out of the blue.

1409
01:06:52,195 --> 01:06:53,005
He, he, he is.

1410
01:06:53,305 --> 01:06:56,455
There's, there's already an
ongoing conversation, but.

1411
01:06:57,044 --> 01:06:59,085
I mean, you know, and what
actually happens to is because

1412
01:06:59,089 --> 01:07:00,524
it is quite a revealing story.

1413
01:07:00,915 --> 01:07:04,665
Um, and this can all be read in the
leaked report, the famous leaked

1414
01:07:04,665 --> 01:07:06,194
report, which is available online.

1415
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:07,515
If you, you, it doesn't take much looking.

1416
01:07:07,515 --> 01:07:10,995
You can find it online and is the
absolute Bible if you actually want

1417
01:07:10,995 --> 01:07:12,585
to understand what happened here.

1418
01:07:12,765 --> 01:07:15,944
It's an extraordinary document in
large measure, not entirely, but

1419
01:07:15,975 --> 01:07:19,335
in large measures now vindicated
by the subsequent forward report.

1420
01:07:19,455 --> 01:07:19,634
Yeah.

1421
01:07:19,634 --> 01:07:20,504
So what actually happens?

1422
01:07:20,504 --> 01:07:22,004
What actually happens on,
it's quite a good story.

1423
01:07:22,214 --> 01:07:25,185
So Schneider and, and I'm taking
my account here from the, the

1424
01:07:25,355 --> 01:07:28,634
leak report, which is incredibly
detailed and backed up by footnotes,

1425
01:07:28,904 --> 01:07:30,825
possibly other participants in this.

1426
01:07:31,395 --> 01:07:33,795
Event might have different
accounts, but whatever.

1427
01:07:34,154 --> 01:07:37,214
Um, so Schneider says,
Well, what are you doing?

1428
01:07:37,214 --> 01:07:39,585
And they effectively, cause it
turns out they're doing nothing.

1429
01:07:40,125 --> 01:07:42,915
So they, they start to do something,
they come up with three names.

1430
01:07:42,944 --> 01:07:43,185
Okay.

1431
01:07:43,185 --> 01:07:44,774
They, they suspend three people.

1432
01:07:45,194 --> 01:07:48,194
Two of them are party members who
have absolutely nothing to do with the

1433
01:07:48,194 --> 01:07:52,185
Palestine Live website, but simply happen
to share the same name as two people.

1434
01:07:52,895 --> 01:07:54,464
who, who do have something
to do with the pulse.

1435
01:07:54,464 --> 01:07:54,674
Yeah.

1436
01:07:54,855 --> 01:07:59,115
And the third one is, is this Jewish
member, the son of a Holocaust survivor.

1437
01:07:59,355 --> 01:07:59,535
Yeah.

1438
01:07:59,565 --> 01:08:03,734
Um, who hasn't actually written
anything at all on, on the, He's a

1439
01:08:03,734 --> 01:08:05,565
member of the, of the, of the chatroom.

1440
01:08:05,625 --> 01:08:05,774
Mm-hmm.

1441
01:08:06,015 --> 01:08:07,605
, Uh, but he hasn't actually
written anything at all.

1442
01:08:07,754 --> 01:08:12,295
And so what Schneider is saying
is a, Why are you going for this

1443
01:08:12,299 --> 01:08:16,274
Jewish boat when, for example, and
he identifies somebody else who

1444
01:08:16,274 --> 01:08:18,255
is a straight up Holocaust denier.

1445
01:08:18,260 --> 01:08:19,785
Who they're entirely ignoring.

1446
01:08:19,845 --> 01:08:20,205
Yeah.

1447
01:08:20,205 --> 01:08:24,194
And, and that, that starts to hold
backwards and forwards, whereby the,

1448
01:08:24,194 --> 01:08:28,154
the suspension of the Jewish guy is
eventually lifted because Matthews, who

1449
01:08:28,154 --> 01:08:30,990
runs the dispute in himself, Acknowledges.

1450
01:08:31,020 --> 01:08:35,819
It's a very weak case anyway, so
it's, it's a, you know, this is

1451
01:08:35,819 --> 01:08:37,770
all an incredible amount of detail.

1452
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,520
Um, as I say, people if they,
if they want, can read the lead.

1453
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:41,640
Well,

1454
01:08:41,930 --> 01:08:44,250
Alexei Sayle: I think our listeners
do seem to, you know, there's a, well,

1455
01:08:44,250 --> 01:08:49,020
there's a section of our listeners anyway
that love this, you know, and it's not, I

1456
01:08:49,050 --> 01:08:51,270
mean, in the sense it's not arcane, is it?

1457
01:08:51,270 --> 01:08:55,529
Because this is a, you know, reading
these reports and stuff, this is a,

1458
01:08:55,710 --> 01:09:01,590
about a fundamental kind of destruction
of democracy in a way, a fundamental

1459
01:09:01,590 --> 01:09:07,050
ruin in of, of, of the one chance of a
different, uh, political viewpoint that

1460
01:09:07,050 --> 01:09:09,480
was, you know, that opposed neoliberalism.

1461
01:09:09,480 --> 01:09:11,970
And so it's not, you know,
on one level yeah, it's, you

1462
01:09:11,970 --> 01:09:13,680
know, thousands of documents.

1463
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:14,730
But it's, it's really

1464
01:09:14,734 --> 01:09:16,770
Richard Sanders: important to, but
there is very environment and, and

1465
01:09:16,775 --> 01:09:20,640
really, regardless of what one thinks
of Jeremy Corbin, and I'm not a huge

1466
01:09:20,700 --> 01:09:23,670
admir of Jeremy Corbin, probably,
probably less than, than, than yourself.

1467
01:09:23,675 --> 01:09:23,890
Mm-hmm.

1468
01:09:23,990 --> 01:09:24,410
, but.

1469
01:09:25,394 --> 01:09:29,264
The media doesn't have the right
to simply destroy the of the

1470
01:09:29,269 --> 01:09:30,705
opposition cause it doesn't like him.

1471
01:09:30,915 --> 01:09:31,245
Yeah.

1472
01:09:31,245 --> 01:09:35,715
You know, he, he had the right to
expect basically honest and fair

1473
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:39,075
journalism, um, if not from the
Telegraph and the mail and so on, at

1474
01:09:39,075 --> 01:09:41,625
least from the BBC Itn and The Guardian.

1475
01:09:41,625 --> 01:09:42,524
And he didn't get it.

1476
01:09:42,585 --> 01:09:42,825
No,

1477
01:09:43,394 --> 01:09:43,904
Alexei Sayle: I agree.

1478
01:09:44,295 --> 01:09:47,835
And that's fucking amazingly important.

1479
01:09:47,955 --> 01:09:51,375
Should we end there or do you want, do
you wanna take John Word parts a bit more?

1480
01:09:51,854 --> 01:09:53,804
I think I'll leave it . All right.

1481
01:09:53,804 --> 01:09:54,465
Leave it there.

1482
01:09:54,615 --> 01:09:59,474
As they used to say on it when, as
Jeremy Clarkson used to say on the

1483
01:09:59,474 --> 01:10:02,144
old top gear on that bombshell.

1484
01:10:02,565 --> 01:10:03,425
We'll leave it there.

1485
01:10:03,665 --> 01:10:05,054
Thank you for listening.

1486
01:10:05,054 --> 01:10:09,615
Subscribing, contribute to our
Patreon and, uh, enjoy this

1487
01:10:09,615 --> 01:10:10,695
podcast and see you next time.

1488
01:10:10,695 --> 01:10:11,175
Bye.

1489
01:10:17,670 --> 01:10:18,540
You've been listening to

1490
01:10:18,540 --> 01:10:20,120
Richard Sanders: the LEL Podcasts.

1491
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:22,410
This show is

1492
01:10:22,410 --> 01:10:23,610
Alexei Sayle: produced and exited by

1493
01:10:23,610 --> 01:10:24,900
Richard Sanders: Talal Carti.

1494
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:28,500
Music by Tar Bus records.

1495
01:10:29,700 --> 01:10:30,030
Thanks

1496
01:10:30,030 --> 01:10:33,930
Alexei Sayle: to Anthony Overton
for the sand mixing and to

1497
01:10:33,990 --> 01:10:35,850
audio boom for hosting us.

1498
01:10:37,650 --> 01:10:42,240
Please keep your emails
coming, inic gmail.com.

1499
01:10:43,420 --> 01:10:43,840
Richard Sanders: Bye.