1 00:00:07,730 --> 00:00:10,689 JAMES GRASBY: Hello and welcome to the National Trust Podcast. 2 00:00:10,899 --> 00:00:14,039 I'm James Grasby, Building and Landscapes, curator for the 3 00:00:14,050 --> 00:00:17,870 National Trust. And today I'm heading to the East Anglian Town 4 00:00:17,879 --> 00:00:18,569 of Oxborough. 5 00:00:19,430 --> 00:00:21,760 I'll be visiting a property, which, with the help of some 6 00:00:21,770 --> 00:00:25,809 rather unusual archaeologists, has been home to some incredible 7 00:00:25,819 --> 00:00:26,940 chance findings. 8 00:00:32,090 --> 00:00:35,060 The acres of verdant woodland that surrounds Oxburgh Hall is 9 00:00:35,069 --> 00:00:38,130 full of a variety of ancient trees, oak and ash. 10 00:00:38,590 --> 00:00:42,040 Among the sweet summer birdsong and the chirp of insects is the 11 00:00:42,049 --> 00:00:45,310 occasional rumble of an aircraft flying to and from the nearby 12 00:00:45,319 --> 00:00:46,229 military base. 13 00:00:46,799 --> 00:00:49,310 But when you stop and take some time to look at your 14 00:00:49,319 --> 00:00:52,229 surroundings here, as with any woodlands, you'll find a 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,750 treasure trove of activity left behind by the people who used to 16 00:00:55,759 --> 00:00:57,939 frequent these spaces for work and leisure. 17 00:00:58,569 --> 00:01:01,110 But to give me a better idea of the archaeology that can be 18 00:01:01,119 --> 00:01:04,760 found in this woodland and what it tells us. I'm hoping to bump 19 00:01:04,769 --> 00:01:07,849 into Angus Wainwright, a national trust archaeologist 20 00:01:08,220 --> 00:01:11,309 who'll be able to shed some light on Oxburgh’s woodland 21 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:12,089 secrets. 22 00:01:16,379 --> 00:01:18,580 I hope I'm heading in the right direction. I've come through a 23 00:01:18,589 --> 00:01:22,330 narrow footpath and the canopy surrounding me. 24 00:01:23,110 --> 00:01:26,290 Where is Angus? I think probably rather like looking for 25 00:01:26,300 --> 00:01:30,550 wildlife. This ancient landscape is probably precisely the sort 26 00:01:30,559 --> 00:01:32,550 of place where you would find an archaeologist. 27 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,889 But look there within it, as you would expect, a questing 28 00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:41,970 archaeologist. That is my friend Angus. I'm sure of it. 29 00:01:41,970 --> 00:01:44,029 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Hello, James. 30 00:01:44,029 --> 00:01:48,029 JAMES GRASBY: Hello, Angus. I thought I might find you here. 31 00:01:49,279 --> 00:01:51,079 What a sensational place! 32 00:01:51,079 --> 00:01:52,770 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yeah it’s beautiful isn’t it? 33 00:01:52,770 --> 00:01:53,389 JAMES GRASBY: It's magical! 34 00:01:53,389 --> 00:01:55,139 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, I've got to show you something that 35 00:01:55,150 --> 00:01:56,809 excites an archaeologist. 36 00:01:58,819 --> 00:02:00,400 JAMES GRASBY: Angus, we're standing on the edge of a little 37 00:02:00,410 --> 00:02:04,445 clearing in Scots Pine woodland. And in front of us is a mound. 38 00:02:04,445 --> 00:02:08,050 It looks like a very large molehill. And to my untutored 39 00:02:08,059 --> 00:02:11,660 eye, it looks a bit like a round barrow. 40 00:02:11,750 --> 00:02:14,500 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, that's what we thought it might be. I 41 00:02:14,509 --> 00:02:17,539 mean, round barrows are prehistoric burial mounds as you 42 00:02:17,550 --> 00:02:17,919 know. 43 00:02:17,929 --> 00:02:21,350 We do get them in this part of the world. We cleared the trees 44 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,619 off it and had a closer look. 45 00:02:23,630 --> 00:02:25,759 JAMES GRASBY: So we’re just rising up a low bank and looking 46 00:02:25,770 --> 00:02:27,800 on the top. It is hollow. What is that? 47 00:02:29,710 --> 00:02:32,360 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: What we found when we kicked about on the top 48 00:02:32,369 --> 00:02:35,037 of our supposed round barrow was a lot of bricks. 49 00:02:35,037 --> 00:02:35,395 JAMES GRASBY: No! 50 00:02:35,395 --> 00:02:37,070 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yeah. If you have a look at that. 51 00:02:37,619 --> 00:02:38,610 JAMES GRASBY: My goodness. 52 00:02:38,869 --> 00:02:41,559 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: What we thought we might have was a 17th 53 00:02:41,570 --> 00:02:46,210 century kind of park building, an ornamental building. And then 54 00:02:46,220 --> 00:02:49,690 what we found was that, no, the bricks we found on the inside 55 00:02:49,699 --> 00:02:52,785 would've been very heavily burnt. And then we started 56 00:02:52,796 --> 00:02:56,766 wandering further out into the woods, and we found at least two 57 00:02:56,776 --> 00:03:01,136 other of these mounds. You know, what we've got here is a little 58 00:03:01,145 --> 00:03:05,095 local brick making industry, probably making bricks for 59 00:03:05,106 --> 00:03:06,606 cottages and walls. 60 00:03:06,615 --> 00:03:11,234 And the stoke hole at the other end where people were operating 61 00:03:11,234 --> 00:03:13,481 the kiln, were putting the wood in to keep it burning. 62 00:03:13,861 --> 00:03:17,621 We found some clay pipes, and one piece of pottery down in the 63 00:03:17,632 --> 00:03:20,822 stoke hole. So you can imagine that be a nice little warm spot. 64 00:03:20,832 --> 00:03:23,602 They are down there having a bit of a smoke and maybe something 65 00:03:23,611 --> 00:03:27,981 to drink and broke one of their pipes. The date of those agreed 66 00:03:27,992 --> 00:03:30,962 with late 17th, early 18th century. 67 00:03:33,979 --> 00:03:35,699 JAMES GRASBY: This is a very different form of sleuthing, 68 00:03:35,710 --> 00:03:36,160 isn't it? 69 00:03:36,169 --> 00:03:38,410 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Wandering in the woods at Oxburgh, looking at 70 00:03:38,419 --> 00:03:41,520 the archaeology is really marvellous. But some of the most 71 00:03:41,529 --> 00:03:45,429 interesting and strangest, the most unusual bits of archaeology 72 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,759 are actually in the hall itself. 73 00:03:47,979 --> 00:03:50,609 JAMES GRASBY: Indoor archaeology? How does that work? 74 00:03:50,609 --> 00:03:53,169 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, it's some very special techniques. 75 00:03:53,179 --> 00:03:56,000 And we'll have a look at those and have a little chat as we 76 00:03:56,009 --> 00:03:57,199 walk back towards the hall. 77 00:03:57,210 --> 00:03:58,559 JAMES GRASBY: Fabulous. Let's go. 78 00:04:01,259 --> 00:04:03,649 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: My sort of nature conservation colleagues 79 00:04:03,660 --> 00:04:05,880 they’re always sort of looking out for interesting birds in the 80 00:04:05,889 --> 00:04:08,699 trees, but I'm always looking at the ground, you know, often I'm 81 00:04:08,710 --> 00:04:10,270 actually feeling it with my feet. 82 00:04:10,350 --> 00:04:11,580 JAMES GRASBY: I love that expression. 83 00:04:11,589 --> 00:04:13,300 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's sort of detective work. You're looking 84 00:04:13,309 --> 00:04:17,929 for clues to tell you about what happened in the past, but it's 85 00:04:17,940 --> 00:04:21,540 all about people. All these things were created by people 86 00:04:21,549 --> 00:04:25,119 for a purpose, and often they're just everyday folk who don't get 87 00:04:25,130 --> 00:04:28,309 memorialized in all the wonderful documents. We don't 88 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,760 have letters and diaries from them, but what we do have is 89 00:04:31,769 --> 00:04:34,639 these marks they've left on the landscapes. 90 00:04:34,639 --> 00:04:38,079 JAMES GRASBY: Angus, I had to stop. We've come to the end of 91 00:04:38,089 --> 00:04:40,940 this unfinished carriageway and get the first sight of that 92 00:04:40,950 --> 00:04:43,320 astonishing hall. Oxburgh Hall. 93 00:04:43,660 --> 00:04:45,613 The bricks that you were showing were sort of 1600s. And this 94 00:04:45,613 --> 00:04:49,079 building is hundreds of years earlier I guess? 95 00:04:49,089 --> 00:04:51,859 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's about built 200 years before that. So 96 00:04:51,869 --> 00:04:55,570 it would have been a fashionable and cutting edge, high status 97 00:04:55,579 --> 00:04:57,000 building of the time. 98 00:04:57,010 --> 00:04:58,559 JAMES GRASBY: And was a substantial house for an 99 00:04:58,570 --> 00:05:00,560 important family. Who were they? 100 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,619 ANNA FORREST: Oxburgh Hall's history is inextricably linked 101 00:05:03,630 --> 00:05:06,029 with the history of the Bedingfeld family. I'm Anna 102 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,899 Forrest and I worked as curator for the National Trust at 103 00:05:08,910 --> 00:05:12,179 Oxburgh. Oxburgh and the Bedingfeld’s have witnessed the 104 00:05:12,190 --> 00:05:16,489 English Reformation, the reign of Elizabeth 1st, the English 105 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:21,420 Civil War in the 17th century. They were Jacobite sympathizers 106 00:05:21,505 --> 00:05:23,035 during the 18th century. 107 00:05:23,105 --> 00:05:26,125 During the 19th century, the house was practically a ruin 108 00:05:26,135 --> 00:05:28,734 because of everything that had gone before. And then in the 109 00:05:28,744 --> 00:05:32,524 20th century, it was put up for sale and a great number of the 110 00:05:32,535 --> 00:05:37,325 contents were sold and the house itself was nearly sold just for 111 00:05:37,334 --> 00:05:40,345 its bricks and demolished, which is a thought that doesn't really 112 00:05:40,355 --> 00:05:41,644 bear thinking about. 113 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,989 When Elizabeth 1st came to the throne, there was the act of 114 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,399 uniformity which made saying mass a crime and made refusing 115 00:05:50,410 --> 00:05:53,730 to attend church to hear the English service illegal. And 116 00:05:53,739 --> 00:05:56,970 people who refused to sign up to this act were known as 117 00:05:56,980 --> 00:05:59,549 recusants, which literally means refusers. 118 00:05:59,730 --> 00:06:03,910 And Sir Henry Bedingfeld was one of the people who refused. It 119 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,720 would have been very difficult, really, for the Bedingfeld’s to 120 00:06:06,730 --> 00:06:09,459 have carried on worshiping in the way they were used to. They 121 00:06:09,470 --> 00:06:11,940 would have had to have carried themselves with extreme care at 122 00:06:11,950 --> 00:06:12,570 this point. 123 00:06:15,470 --> 00:06:18,190 JAMES GRASBY: We've come round to what I guess is the principal 124 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:18,839 entrance. 125 00:06:19,049 --> 00:06:21,829 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: I think if you are visiting in the 1500s, the 126 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,660 doors would be shut. These massive medieval oak doors you'd 127 00:06:25,670 --> 00:06:28,800 have to hammer on the door and this little one would open here. 128 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,959 And knock on the door. 129 00:06:30,970 --> 00:06:34,690 And we found scratches on the inside of the window there where 130 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:39,369 a dog has jumped up at the window and scratched. So you'd 131 00:06:39,380 --> 00:06:42,290 knock on the door and then that guard dog would bark - bark - 132 00:06:42,290 --> 00:06:45,709 bark and somebody would emerge out of one of these little doors 133 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:46,989 here on either side. 134 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,809 Follow me up the spiral staircase, and now you'll see 135 00:06:50,820 --> 00:06:52,890 the painted brickwork. 136 00:06:54,230 --> 00:06:56,109 JAMES GRASBY: Is this painted to look like brick? 137 00:06:56,119 --> 00:06:59,570 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: This is brick, but it's been painted red with 138 00:06:59,579 --> 00:07:04,209 white lines. It's a bit weird. It's to make the brick look 139 00:07:04,220 --> 00:07:05,309 neater. 140 00:07:05,679 --> 00:07:10,730 JAMES GRASBY: Quite incredible. It's like the curly whirly snail 141 00:07:10,739 --> 00:07:13,529 shell drawn out, going up the inside. 142 00:07:17,369 --> 00:07:19,839 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So this is the room called the King's Room. 143 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:23,549 Traditionally, this was the room which was set aside for Henry 144 00:07:23,559 --> 00:07:24,770 7th when he visited. 145 00:07:24,770 --> 00:07:28,380 JAMES GRASBY: Really for a royal visit? A royal visitor? 146 00:07:28,570 --> 00:07:31,220 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So just over there is another doorway which 147 00:07:31,230 --> 00:07:34,790 leads into a lovely little vaulted room. Just off it is the 148 00:07:34,799 --> 00:07:38,119 Garderobe, Your little private lavatory, but also one of 149 00:07:38,130 --> 00:07:40,064 Oxburgh's most famous mysteries. 150 00:07:40,064 --> 00:07:41,869 JAMES GRASBY: Oh, lead the way. 151 00:07:43,220 --> 00:07:46,420 Is this really a lav? 1480s loo? 152 00:07:46,540 --> 00:07:47,540 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It was. 153 00:07:47,890 --> 00:07:48,235 JAMES GRASBY: En Suite? 154 00:07:48,235 --> 00:07:49,170 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Look down there. 155 00:07:49,179 --> 00:07:51,549 JAMES GRASBY: Are you? You're kidding me. Is that it? It's a 156 00:07:51,559 --> 00:07:52,940 it's a deadfall loo. 157 00:07:52,950 --> 00:07:55,600 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's a hole in the floor which should go down a 158 00:07:55,609 --> 00:07:57,947 shaft into the moat. 159 00:07:57,947 --> 00:07:59,559 JAMES GRASBY: Oh I see! 160 00:07:59,570 --> 00:08:01,760 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It doesn't, it goes into a secret room! 161 00:08:02,089 --> 00:08:02,720 JAMES GRASBY: Really? 162 00:08:02,730 --> 00:08:04,239 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: You can squeeze through if you want 163 00:08:04,239 --> 00:08:04,250 to... 164 00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:05,200 JAMES GRASBY: Can I squeeze through? 165 00:08:05,209 --> 00:08:10,250 Well this is a first to be entering a lavatory feet first. 166 00:08:10,279 --> 00:08:11,619 I'm going down, dropping down. 167 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:14,190 A useful torch. 168 00:08:14,390 --> 00:08:17,179 Here we are. I'm now in the depths. I'm going round the 169 00:08:17,190 --> 00:08:20,480 u-bend in the lavatory that’s fortunately not full of water. 170 00:08:21,019 --> 00:08:26,989 And as Angus told me, I've now entered a little room, large 171 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,070 enough to stand up in, but certainly not to lie down in... 172 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:37,070 This is fascinating, I would guess that this is somewhere 173 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,659 that you would hide in the event of an emergency. I'm going to 174 00:08:41,669 --> 00:08:45,509 come out through the lav. 175 00:08:45,509 --> 00:08:49,150 Angus, I'm intrigued! 176 00:08:49,159 --> 00:08:50,530 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Have you worked out what it is? 177 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,169 JAMES GRASBY: Well, it feels like somewhere... well... a 178 00:08:53,179 --> 00:08:56,049 priest hole or somewhere that if you're under threat, you could 179 00:08:56,059 --> 00:08:56,770 get away. 180 00:08:56,900 --> 00:09:00,179 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So it is a priest hole. So the Bedingfeld 181 00:09:00,190 --> 00:09:05,080 family were Catholics. They didn't turn to Protestantism. So 182 00:09:05,090 --> 00:09:08,210 they were, you know, in a sticky political position. 183 00:09:08,219 --> 00:09:12,349 And that is why from being very wealthy, they fell on hard times 184 00:09:12,359 --> 00:09:16,520 and they had to have priests to serve mass, which was illegal. 185 00:09:16,530 --> 00:09:20,789 So they had to have a little bolt-hole for the priest to go 186 00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:23,679 should anybody turn up at the door hammering away. 187 00:09:23,690 --> 00:09:25,520 JAMES GRASBY: But if I'd been caught, if I'd been that 188 00:09:25,530 --> 00:09:29,419 Catholic priest and they'd found their way to me, what would have 189 00:09:29,429 --> 00:09:30,429 been the outcome? 190 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,520 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, you'd be dragged out and probably 191 00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:37,190 tortured to find out who your associates were, and then you'd 192 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,820 probably be executed in a rather gruesome way. 193 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:44,140 JAMES GRASBY: Is umm- is finding priests hidden under the floor, 194 00:09:44,150 --> 00:09:48,349 something that you encounter in your daily- 195 00:09:48,690 --> 00:09:51,119 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: I've never actually, funnily enough, ever 196 00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:54,340 found the priest on the floorboard, but we have found a 197 00:09:54,349 --> 00:09:57,429 lot of other exciting things under the floorboards here at 198 00:09:57,650 --> 00:09:58,250 Oxburgh. 199 00:09:58,750 --> 00:10:00,055 JAMES GRASBY: You're going to show me some things? 200 00:10:00,055 --> 00:10:04,928 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yeah. We're going to have a look! 201 00:10:04,928 --> 00:10:06,320 JAMES GRASBY: Oh wonderful! 202 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,799 That was quite a narrow staircase you brought me up, 203 00:10:08,799 --> 00:10:11,590 Angus. I guess we're in the servants bedrooms or? 204 00:10:11,809 --> 00:10:15,119 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Often We don't really know how rooms were used 205 00:10:15,130 --> 00:10:17,190 because these weren't described. 206 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,000 But we were lucky in archaeological or historical 207 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:23,360 terms because we just completed a massive building project at 208 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:23,765 Oxburgh. 209 00:10:24,174 --> 00:10:27,934 All the floorboards in this room and the attic next door to us 210 00:10:27,945 --> 00:10:29,184 were all lifted up. 211 00:10:29,184 --> 00:10:31,575 Underneath these floorboards, as you can imagine, there's 212 00:10:31,585 --> 00:10:33,015 hundreds of years of dust. 213 00:10:33,025 --> 00:10:36,044 So among the dust, the things that are fallen between the 214 00:10:36,054 --> 00:10:39,554 cracks in the floorboards or been deliberately hidden. 215 00:10:39,984 --> 00:10:43,534 So all this stuff accumulates under the floorboards. Normally 216 00:10:43,544 --> 00:10:46,655 it would just be shovelled away and go out in the skip. But we 217 00:10:46,664 --> 00:10:49,534 decided we were going to treat this as a sort of archaeological 218 00:10:49,544 --> 00:10:50,455 excavation. 219 00:10:54,049 --> 00:10:56,500 JAMES GRASBY: This is not the Indiana Jones end of 220 00:10:56,510 --> 00:10:59,539 archaeology. It's not the excavation of the Roman Villa or 221 00:10:59,549 --> 00:11:03,200 the finding of a Mithraic Temple It's a completely different 222 00:11:03,210 --> 00:11:04,099 world this isn't it? 223 00:11:04,109 --> 00:11:06,539 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's been said by others that archaeology is 224 00:11:06,549 --> 00:11:08,580 all about rubbish. 225 00:11:08,869 --> 00:11:11,659 And whether you're looking underneath the floorboards or on 226 00:11:11,669 --> 00:11:15,659 an excavation of a Roman villa, you're digging up other people's 227 00:11:15,669 --> 00:11:19,809 rubbish and that's tell you a picture about their life. 228 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:25,690 Sorting through 57 sacks of dust was both dirty and boring at 229 00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:26,280 times. 230 00:11:26,289 --> 00:11:29,119 But, you know, me and the volunteers were kept going by 231 00:11:29,130 --> 00:11:32,580 the dream of finding, you know, a little gold coin or something 232 00:11:32,590 --> 00:11:33,840 really exciting like that. 233 00:11:33,929 --> 00:11:37,109 But us archaeologists can be excited by much more trivial 234 00:11:37,119 --> 00:11:40,010 things than gold coins, so we've got some, you know, 235 00:11:40,020 --> 00:11:42,450 spectacularly trivial things for you to look at. 236 00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:43,640 JAMES GRASBY: I’m longing to see them! 237 00:11:45,969 --> 00:11:48,340 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: What we might do is start from the trivial and 238 00:11:48,349 --> 00:11:50,185 work up to the more fancy. 239 00:11:50,185 --> 00:11:53,099 I thought these are the probably the most sort of mundane. 240 00:11:53,799 --> 00:11:54,729 If you have a look at those. 241 00:11:55,530 --> 00:11:58,359 JAMES GRASBY: I recognize those Christmas. Walnut shells. 242 00:11:58,590 --> 00:11:59,760 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Walnut shells. Yes. 243 00:11:59,760 --> 00:11:59,770 JAMES GRASBY: Really? 244 00:11:59,770 --> 00:12:03,369 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So in some rooms, there were tons of walnut 245 00:12:03,380 --> 00:12:07,349 shells that if they've been nibbled by rats, it could be 246 00:12:07,359 --> 00:12:09,869 that the rats have actually brought them down to eat under 247 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:10,365 the floorboards. 248 00:12:10,365 --> 00:12:10,710 JAMES GRASBY: Yeah. 249 00:12:10,929 --> 00:12:13,400 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: But these ones that have been perfectly cracked 250 00:12:13,789 --> 00:12:17,809 and not nibble by rats, they've been deliberately put under the 251 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:22,294 floor. And what we think is that this is sound insulation. 252 00:12:22,294 --> 00:12:22,789 JAMES GRASBY: Oh! 253 00:12:23,710 --> 00:12:27,169 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So you put a thick layer of walnut shells 254 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,859 under your floor as a sound insulation because downstairs 255 00:12:32,299 --> 00:12:37,219 are the bedrooms of the gentry and up here are the servants 256 00:12:37,229 --> 00:12:40,489 clattering around on this floor with no carpets on it. 257 00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:43,510 Bash - Bash - Bash, chatting away. People downstairs, don’t 258 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,070 want to hear what's going on upstairs. 259 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:46,340 JAMES GRASBY: What a brilliant idea. 260 00:12:47,109 --> 00:12:48,400 Early sound insulation. 261 00:12:50,419 --> 00:12:56,050 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So probably the commonest find are these. 262 00:12:56,050 --> 00:12:56,059 JAMES GRASBY: They’re dress making pins are they? 263 00:12:56,059 --> 00:12:58,729 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: They must be dress making pins. We haven't 264 00:12:58,739 --> 00:13:02,010 looked at these in detail, but what's clearly happening is that 265 00:13:02,340 --> 00:13:08,130 maids are adapting or making dresses in this room, they’re 266 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:09,530 dropping pins. 267 00:13:09,539 --> 00:13:11,520 And when they're sweeping up, they're going down between the 268 00:13:11,530 --> 00:13:14,690 cracks in the floorboards. And what we found was they're 269 00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:18,429 concentrated where you might imagine, where the windows are. 270 00:13:18,659 --> 00:13:20,729 JAMES GRASBY: It's not just finding a pin, it's knowing the 271 00:13:20,739 --> 00:13:23,599 context from which that pin came from that really begins to 272 00:13:23,609 --> 00:13:25,739 answer questions and give a picture of daily life here, 273 00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:26,260 doesn't it? 274 00:13:26,270 --> 00:13:29,250 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's a simple little story, but it just gives 275 00:13:29,260 --> 00:13:32,299 you a little window into the lives of real people in the 276 00:13:32,309 --> 00:13:34,760 past, just from a few pins. 277 00:13:34,820 --> 00:13:35,619 JAMES GRASBY: That’s magic. 278 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:42,520 What have you got there? 279 00:13:43,179 --> 00:13:45,289 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So you've got a little, little box, which I'll 280 00:13:45,299 --> 00:13:47,010 try not to break when I open it. 281 00:13:48,020 --> 00:13:51,200 But if you just want to hold that just very carefully and- 282 00:13:51,210 --> 00:13:52,869 JAMES GRASBY: Well, I'm going to take it over to the light where 283 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,289 the seamstress was. That looks like a fragment of textile to 284 00:13:56,299 --> 00:13:57,909 me. A little bit of cloth. 285 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,190 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Bizarrely, the most exciting thing in this 286 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,809 attic was a rat's nest. So when Matt the archaeologist who was 287 00:14:05,820 --> 00:14:10,419 here found it, it was just like a dusty heap of fabric. 288 00:14:10,429 --> 00:14:14,179 He carefully unfurled it, all these different bits of chewed 289 00:14:14,190 --> 00:14:17,820 up textile, and he realised that there was something unusual 290 00:14:17,830 --> 00:14:18,479 about this. 291 00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:22,630 MATTHEW CHAMPION: My name is Matthew Champion. I'm a 292 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,330 freelance buildings archaeologist. I specialize in 293 00:14:26,340 --> 00:14:29,380 historical inscriptions and underfloor archaeology and 294 00:14:29,390 --> 00:14:30,330 buildings recording. 295 00:14:31,099 --> 00:14:35,630 We were carrying out a survey in the attics at Oxburgh. We were 296 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,190 investigating beneath the floorboards. While working in 297 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,909 one area near the gatehouse, I came across what appeared to be 298 00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:47,390 a very large and rather ancient rat's nest. 299 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,929 These weren't uncommon at Oxburgh. We had come across 300 00:14:49,940 --> 00:14:53,239 quite a few already. But it was very clear from this. As soon as 301 00:14:53,250 --> 00:14:56,469 I started investigating that we had small pieces of parchment 302 00:14:56,469 --> 00:14:59,619 and we had quite a lot of textiles involved. 303 00:15:00,780 --> 00:15:04,559 So we took a fairly forensic approach. We couldn't lift the 304 00:15:04,570 --> 00:15:08,359 whole thing in situ, so we had to literally beneath the 305 00:15:08,369 --> 00:15:12,190 floorboards, gradually dissect this rat's nest. 306 00:15:12,239 --> 00:15:14,729 And as soon as we started opening it up, we realized it 307 00:15:14,739 --> 00:15:19,140 was full of treasures. We had collars, we had cuffs, we had 308 00:15:19,150 --> 00:15:22,909 embroidery, and we had some very, very high status things 309 00:15:22,919 --> 00:15:23,609 like silks. 310 00:15:23,619 --> 00:15:25,570 We had velvets, we had satins. 311 00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:29,179 What was really significant was the quality. These were not your 312 00:15:29,190 --> 00:15:33,109 average everyday items. These had clearly come from luxury 313 00:15:33,119 --> 00:15:33,919 garments. 314 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,869 A lot of the garments that these came from would have been very 315 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,409 fashionable high status items. But of course fashions change 316 00:15:41,419 --> 00:15:42,450 quite quickly. 317 00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:45,890 The material itself could be reused, whereas the garment 318 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,419 couldn't. So what they were doing was they were cutting off 319 00:15:48,429 --> 00:15:51,630 things like the collars and the cuffs, and then they were 320 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,640 reusing those larger sections of material and probably reusing 321 00:15:55,650 --> 00:15:58,929 them in other, more fashionable up to date garments. 322 00:15:58,940 --> 00:16:01,570 This is just not something you normally come across in 323 00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:02,400 archaeology. 324 00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:08,219 JAMES GRASBY: That's fabulous. It's not only a great reminder 325 00:16:08,229 --> 00:16:11,929 to all of us today about the tradition of reusing recycling 326 00:16:11,940 --> 00:16:17,010 materials, but also the idea that once is of no use to us, it 327 00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:20,409 may be of use to somebody else, even a family of rats? 328 00:16:20,530 --> 00:16:23,780 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes. Probably hundreds of generations of 329 00:16:23,789 --> 00:16:27,640 little rats have snuggled up in that area over the centuries. 330 00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:28,440 JAMES GRASBY: Brilliant! 331 00:16:29,390 --> 00:16:31,000 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: And so I’ll put that back. 332 00:16:31,710 --> 00:16:33,570 JAMES GRASBY: I'm glad you went through all this rubbish! 333 00:16:38,119 --> 00:16:42,289 Now, that is extraordinary. It is a small fragment, I would 334 00:16:42,299 --> 00:16:43,260 think, of paper. 335 00:16:43,270 --> 00:16:43,719 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Can you-? 336 00:16:43,729 --> 00:16:46,109 JAMES GRASBY: No! That's music notation isn't it? 337 00:16:46,109 --> 00:16:47,849 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It is music notation. 338 00:16:48,219 --> 00:16:48,479 JAMES GRASBY: Is it? 339 00:16:48,479 --> 00:16:50,619 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes. This little scrap of paper and a few 340 00:16:50,630 --> 00:16:56,059 others like it came out of the rat's nest as well. And luckily 341 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,950 there was an expert on hand to have a look at the photographs 342 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:04,322 and identify that this is actually early Tudor- 343 00:17:04,322 --> 00:17:05,074 JAMES GRASBY: Wow! 344 00:17:05,074 --> 00:17:06,579 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: -handwritten music. 345 00:17:07,458 --> 00:17:10,029 DAVID SKINNER: My name's David Skinner. I am the Osborn 346 00:17:10,038 --> 00:17:13,438 Director of music at Sidney Sussex College in Cambridge. 347 00:17:15,290 --> 00:17:18,219 I believe it was. It was a morning. It was definitely a 348 00:17:18,229 --> 00:17:23,209 morning. And somebody forwarded this article to me and I opened 349 00:17:23,219 --> 00:17:24,369 it up on my computer. 350 00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:28,510 Just reading through the article, just casually 351 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,449 mentioning two small fragments, musical fragments, without any 352 00:17:32,459 --> 00:17:35,410 further information. Then my heart started to race because 353 00:17:35,420 --> 00:17:38,270 there's a possibility that this might be composed music. 354 00:17:40,219 --> 00:17:43,869 Each side of the fragment had enough musical notation, enough 355 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,800 information to show that this was indeed music, probably from 356 00:17:48,810 --> 00:17:50,439 the mid 1520s. 357 00:17:50,449 --> 00:17:54,209 Very likely to be music by a well-known composer from that 358 00:17:54,219 --> 00:17:57,760 time. Could have been Cornysh, could have been Tallis and also 359 00:17:57,770 --> 00:18:02,550 a lost fragment from what seems to be a lost book of masses. 360 00:18:03,390 --> 00:18:07,329 We have so little, comparatively little music from the reign of 361 00:18:07,339 --> 00:18:11,219 Henry 8th. So he would completely, fundamentally change 362 00:18:11,229 --> 00:18:14,420 the soundscape of our understanding of early tudor 363 00:18:14,420 --> 00:18:15,130 church music. 364 00:18:15,969 --> 00:18:18,760 The implications are vast here because it just simply means 365 00:18:18,770 --> 00:18:22,819 that this music represents the very, very height of English 366 00:18:22,829 --> 00:18:27,869 choral endeavor in the 1520s. So what is it doing in a rat's nest 367 00:18:28,390 --> 00:18:33,275 in Oxburgh Hall? 368 00:18:33,275 --> 00:18:39,560 JAMES GRASBY: Angus, you've brought me along a corridor and 369 00:18:39,569 --> 00:18:42,229 I've only got my bearings by looking out of this window. 370 00:18:42,260 --> 00:18:45,589 But this looks to me to be a cross between a laboratory and a 371 00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:46,209 study! 372 00:18:46,219 --> 00:18:48,900 Now you've got some tools of the trade here, some very dainty 373 00:18:48,910 --> 00:18:52,930 brushes, some sturdier household brushes. There are bags of 374 00:18:52,939 --> 00:18:56,880 unsorted material, lots of clipboards, endless forms 375 00:18:56,890 --> 00:18:59,280 detailing all the finds. What am I looking at Angus? 376 00:18:59,369 --> 00:19:02,329 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, this is my working area. We don't do the 377 00:19:02,339 --> 00:19:06,000 actual sorting of the dust in here because as you can imagine, 378 00:19:06,010 --> 00:19:07,160 it's very dusty. 379 00:19:07,180 --> 00:19:11,660 So we do that under a gazebo outside, but here under the 380 00:19:11,670 --> 00:19:16,189 bench are some bags waiting to be sorted. 381 00:19:16,229 --> 00:19:20,160 So these are rubble sacks. And yeah, they contain about one or 382 00:19:20,170 --> 00:19:23,845 two buckets full of debris from under the floorboards. And if I- 383 00:19:23,845 --> 00:19:25,229 there's one here that's open! 384 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:27,260 JAMES GRASBY: That is a bag of rubbish Angus. 385 00:19:27,349 --> 00:19:30,640 Angus, this is not archaeology to my mind. There's dust that 386 00:19:30,650 --> 00:19:33,510 would come out of my vacuum cleaner that I threw in the bin. 387 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,640 It looks very unpromising to me. But you're telling me this is 388 00:19:36,650 --> 00:19:39,229 the clue to the past? 389 00:19:39,229 --> 00:19:40,428 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yeah. So that's actually a hoover bag. 390 00:19:40,428 --> 00:19:44,089 So the builders- First they shovel out the material, then 391 00:19:44,099 --> 00:19:48,020 they hoover it all out and the shovelled out material and the 392 00:19:48,030 --> 00:19:49,959 hoover bags all go in the sack. 393 00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:54,079 But the interesting things that we've looked at before be hidden 394 00:19:54,089 --> 00:19:55,800 among all that material. 395 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,069 JAMES GRASBY: So I guess you're telling me that you now put all 396 00:19:58,079 --> 00:19:59,920 that out on a tray and go through it. 397 00:19:59,930 --> 00:20:02,400 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Every thimble full. 398 00:20:02,530 --> 00:20:03,430 JAMES GRASBY: Wow! 399 00:20:03,910 --> 00:20:05,719 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, we looked at some of the other 400 00:20:05,729 --> 00:20:08,829 things that we found under the floorboards, but I've got one 401 00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:11,410 larger item here to show you. 402 00:20:15,069 --> 00:20:18,750 JAMES GRASBY: It’s all wrapped up in a tissue paper inside a 403 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,099 box. My goodness, that is astonishing! 404 00:20:22,829 --> 00:20:25,920 Beautifully done and the detail is exquisite! 405 00:20:27,209 --> 00:20:30,359 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, this is a little leather bound, printed 406 00:20:30,369 --> 00:20:35,750 book, and it's a book of Psalms from 1569. And it was actually 407 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:41,535 compiled by Catherine Parr, who you might remember as the sixth 408 00:20:41,535 --> 00:20:42,010 wife- 409 00:20:42,449 --> 00:20:43,485 JAMES GRASBY: Of Henry 8th! 410 00:20:43,485 --> 00:20:47,910 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Of Henry 8th, who was a very studious person, 411 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,430 a very highly Protestant. So rather unusual thing to find in 412 00:20:52,439 --> 00:20:55,170 a very Catholic family's house. 413 00:20:55,380 --> 00:21:00,170 This was found by a builder resting on top of the external 414 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:05,219 wall, just under the tiles, so inches from the weather, just 415 00:21:05,229 --> 00:21:08,130 waiting for that builder to come along and... 416 00:21:08,130 --> 00:21:10,680 JAMES GRASBY: Wow! That is incredible! 417 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,459 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It’s a bit puzzling how it got there. We 418 00:21:20,469 --> 00:21:23,500 don't think it was deliberately hidden. 419 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,349 You know, there wouldn't be anything politically problematic 420 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,329 about it. In fact, it's the ideal book one would want in 421 00:21:31,339 --> 00:21:34,640 one's house to show that, you know, one was a proper 422 00:21:34,650 --> 00:21:35,459 Protestant. 423 00:21:35,969 --> 00:21:40,150 You can imagine it might have dropped off the back of a shelf, 424 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,010 off the end of the floorboard just through a large enough gap 425 00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:47,469 to drop down onto the top of the exterior wall. 426 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,170 You know, maybe it was just a chance like that. And there it 427 00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:53,780 sat. You know, unnoticed for all, all that time. 428 00:21:53,829 --> 00:21:56,030 JAMES GRASBY: Angus you were showing me pins and walnut 429 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:01,670 shells and small fragments of everyday things. But to find a 430 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,040 book in this sort of condition must be astonishing for an 431 00:22:05,050 --> 00:22:05,819 archaeologist. 432 00:22:06,489 --> 00:22:07,979 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: This is the kind of thing when we set this 433 00:22:07,989 --> 00:22:11,969 project up, that's the sort of thing we dreamt of finding. 434 00:22:12,189 --> 00:22:14,979 We knew we'd find interesting things like those pins, you 435 00:22:14,989 --> 00:22:17,869 know, that tell us about the everyday life of the house. 436 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,829 But we hoped, you know, that we might find some really unusual 437 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:24,479 and valuable and evocative things. I mean, that's so 438 00:22:24,489 --> 00:22:25,655 evocative, isn't it? 439 00:22:25,655 --> 00:22:31,130 And in that condition as well, you know, the history of a place 440 00:22:31,140 --> 00:22:34,579 like Oxburgh Hall, it's just encapsulated in that sort of 441 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,369 rotting and nibbled, wonderful book. 442 00:22:43,099 --> 00:22:45,729 JAMES GRASBY: So I've reluctantly said goodbye to 443 00:22:45,739 --> 00:22:51,160 Angus and behind me is Oxburgh, which is sort of evaporating 444 00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:55,709 again into this wonderful landscape, this meadow land of 445 00:22:55,719 --> 00:22:58,790 almost waist high flowering plants. 446 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,339 And I'm trying to do and trying to think about what Angus told 447 00:23:04,349 --> 00:23:06,660 me, which I thought was lovely. The idea of feeling the 448 00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:10,640 landscape with your feet as a way of sensing what's going on. 449 00:23:10,650 --> 00:23:14,119 His sense of inquiry and the way he goes about the sort of 450 00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:16,949 forensic investigation of buildings, extending 451 00:23:16,959 --> 00:23:21,685 archaeology, not just from excavating a brick kiln, but to 452 00:23:21,694 --> 00:23:23,025 under-floor archaeology. 453 00:23:23,035 --> 00:23:26,425 And the lives and collecting habits of rats in the house 454 00:23:26,435 --> 00:23:30,925 reveals so much these lost lives the history of needle women who 455 00:23:30,935 --> 00:23:35,104 have not been recorded in documents, but whose evidence of 456 00:23:35,114 --> 00:23:37,635 their lives persists in the things that they left behind. 457 00:23:37,645 --> 00:23:39,125 It's been a great revelation. 458 00:23:50,140 --> 00:23:53,250 Thanks for listening to this episode of the National Trust 459 00:23:53,260 --> 00:23:57,069 Podcast to make sure you get to new episodes of this podcast, 460 00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:00,979 follow or subscribe on Spotify, Google Podcasts or Apple 461 00:24:00,989 --> 00:24:03,979 Podcasts. And while you're there, do leave us a review to 462 00:24:03,989 --> 00:24:06,739 let us know what you think of the show. We'll be back soon 463 00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:10,599 with a new episode. But for now from me, James Grasby. Goodbye.