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Narrator: You're listening to
the humans of DevOps podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas and learning,
or the SKIL framework.

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Rami: I don't think there's a
skill. A DevOps is usually a

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DevOps engineer is a DevOps
engineer and I'm dealing with

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AWS lambda. I have have an
expertise. I live in the DevOps

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group, but I have expertise.
It's very similar here.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Hello, my name
is Eveline Oehrlich . Welcome to

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the humans of DevOps podcast
today, excited to be with a very

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special guest Rami Tamir on the
topic, breaking down silos,

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which I think is a very
fantastic topic to talk through,

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we'll travel through a variety
of topics. So Rami thanks for

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being here. I am going to do a
little bit of reading to our

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audience about your background,
but I will turn it also to you

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later on, because there is maybe
some holes you want to fill in.

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So first of all Rami is the co
founder and CEO for Salto, Salto

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was founded in 2019. In 2021, I
believe Salto was listed as one

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of the top 10 Hottest DevOps
companies, the word Salto, I can

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say that because I speak a
little Italian means jump, .

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Right. That's a great name for a
company. So congratulations.

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Let's talk a little bit more
about Rami what he has done so

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he has 25 plus years of
experience in management of

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multidisciplinary software
development, as an entrepreneur

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he has a ton of proven track
records on different technology

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companies. He was co founder of
Pentacom, which was acquired by

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Cisco quantum run it or the
kernel based virtual Yeah,

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camera net based virtual
machines acquired by Red Hat and

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Ravello systems acquired by
Oracle. There is a trend there

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in naming and we'll quiz you on
that and you are also an angel

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investment investors in the
early stage startup companies in

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tech industries and serves on
many boards for them, you BSWECS

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so kind of similar to me, except
I don't have the W E. I have the

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CSCIS in electrical engineering
from Technion and an MBA from

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Northwestern University in Tel
Aviv University. Welcome, Rami.

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Anything I missed on your
background? That you want to

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share?

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Rami: First of all, thanks for
having me. No, I think it's,

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it's pretty extensive. So yeah,
we can move on from there.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent. So
Salto automates configuration of

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popular enterprise SaaS
applications. So we're talking

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Salesforce, NetSuite, Marketo,
and many others. And for me, as

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a DevOps person, sharing with
our audiences uses, and

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leverages a variety of DevOps
principles, really to manage

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configurations. So a lot of
codeless, low code work to help

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Biz Ops to be faster, better,
more proactive, etc, etc. So

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give us your definition and what
it is really that Salto actually

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solves?

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Rami: It's pretty simple,
actually. When you look at what

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companies are doing today to
manage their pre called business

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operation, we can elaborate on
that later. It's done using a

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cluster of cloud applications,
the likes of Salesforce and

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NetSuite and JIRA, Zendesk, etc,
etc. Typical company will run

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10s, and hundreds of those. And
essentially, when you get those

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platform, you sign up to this
platform, you get data skin, you

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get a database, and you have to
start, morphing adapts to a

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business. And that work is done
using no code. way of doing

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things, it doesn't have code it
they're coding for, to some

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extent, but mostly it's a no
code thing. So when you look at

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the day to day of people doing
that, when when you start a

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company, and I've done that a
few times, as you mentioned,

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it's simple. You basically bring
on a contractor and you do some

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work and it's nice, you have
maybe one admin, things are

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good. When the business starts
to pick up, it becomes really

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complex, because these are
mission critical applications.

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Because if your sales were
stopped if your NetSuite stops

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if any of those platforms stop,
you have a problem. The business

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slowed down and When you look at
the way, no code platforms are

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being developed, it's
essentially an ad hoc process

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done differently from company to
another very error prone very

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manual relies on tribal
knowledge, meaning they're not,

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you know, this guy know that
that person knows something

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else. And when when it becomes
complex, when the business picks

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up, and it doesn't take a lot of
time, things start to break. In

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the basic things, I'll give you
three examples, what is

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implemented, in order to
understand what is implemented

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in Salesforce, you have to go
through a click and point point

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and click marathon to understand
what is that? How do you design

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review. So I have a change I
want to make. What is the

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language that I stick to my peer
in order to show them what I'm

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doing, like the day to day thing
in the development process? How

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do I revert to change? How do I
kind of share the knowledge with

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some someone else, et cetera, et
cetera. And all of all of these

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are things that were sold in the
last two to three decades very

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well in the software delivery
and software development world.

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So what we're trying to do as a
company is very simple. Trying

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to see if we can coordinate to
see if you can call, we try to

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copy concepts from the DevOps
software delivery world in

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there. And the first step of
doing that is create a common

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language. Because as I said
before, there is no language to

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speak, you know, between the two
peers working on the same

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project. So what we what we did
is we created an open source

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project, it's called Saudi, you
can find it on GitHub, that,

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essentially in a very basic
level, connects to those

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platforms, using their API,
their open API's, and extract

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the schema or the metadata
configuration of the

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configuration. And then we form
it formatted in what we call

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knuckle, which stands for if you
want not another configuration

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language, or the chemical sign
for salts, also a lot of geeky

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references. But this is a
glorified JSON. That allows you

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to start doing things in a code
kind of way, this is what we

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call it. This is why we call it
companies code. Once you have

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textual representation or coder
presentation on those platforms,

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you can start doing software
like things. I mean, you can put

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it in Git, you can create
versions, you can revert

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changes, you can share the
knowledge with someone else, you

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can start explore the other side
of the of the house, if you

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will. And that's what we
essentially do, obviously, we go

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way beyond that. But that's the
basic basic, saying, having said

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all that, we do not expect
admins of this platform to write

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code. This is not what we're
doing. We think no code is a

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great thing, is a great thing.
It's an amazing thing. What

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we're trying to do is once
you've done your feature, using

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your platform, Salesforce,
whatever platform, you can

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extract that configuration, we
call it discovery of fetch, and

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you have only to change it
codified. And once you have your

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changes codified, you can start
doing all the process that we

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used to this is kind of a very
high level description of what

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we do.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So that makes
me think of a term when I was at

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Forrester Research, we did a lot
of let's say, listening in, of

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course, to what Gartner had to
say and they they face this

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term, citizen developer, right,
and ServiceNow picked up on that

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quite a bit. So what I heard is,
this really enables citizen

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developers or business
technologists that was our term

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at Forrester to do things
themselves without inhibiting or

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bringing in a developer and a
large team to actually make

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whatever they need to do in
terms of business processes, in

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terms of connections,
integrations, logics, etc, etc.

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Right? Is that correct?

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Rami: There's two sides to what
you say here, I'll break it

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down. So the local platforms
allow any citizen developer to

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do that work. The problem is,
what happens when these changes

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start to accumulate. And you
want to have something that is

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efficient, that doesn't have a
technical debt that makes sense

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that connect between the other
stimulus system to another

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because essentially, all of this
system tried to create one

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solution. And there will we come
in, we'd like to solve these

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people create solutions. And
when you create a solution,

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you're essentially an engineer.
You're not a software developer,

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per se, because you're not using
software tools or code. But you

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are an engineer, we try to call
them business engineers, because

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these are people who are getting
very, very complex tasks, very

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complex task similar to software
developer development. They're

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handling mission critical
application, but at the end of

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the day, they don't have enough
tools, processes methodology to

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solve those problems. If you
look at what was done again, in

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the software delivery software
development world in the last

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three decades is infrastructure
and processes and know how to

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solve very complex problem is a
large team with the

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understanding that you will make
mistake mistakes, and you have

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to solve them. What is the
process of evolutionary getting

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to a better state, they don't
have that in either side, this

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is what we're trying to solve.
We call them business engineers,

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because we feel they are the
perfect line between engineers

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and people who knows the
business or know the business.

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So I think that's a good term.
And we're trying to give them

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the right tools, methodologies,
and way to work in a in a, in a

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sane way. Because doing it
manually. It's, it's a recipe

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for failure.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So what is it
that business engineers do,  it

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is actually Biz Ops, right?
That's the term which I am

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actually an INO ops, or an IT
ops. So what I do in IT ops is

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what these folks do in business.
Right? Help me and our listeners

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to compare and contrast Biz Ops,
and DevOps.

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Rami: Yeah, DevOps is a kind of
term that has a long span,

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meaning it's, it's it started
from the, you know, the

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amalgamation of development and
operations. But today, it's

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almost like it's a style, it's a
movement, it's, it's a way of

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doing things, it's an
understanding that there's there

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is a way of actually creating
those processes, infrastructure

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and everything. Biz Ops is
today's just the term, there's

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not a lot behind it, this is
business applications. And there

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are different within Biz Ops,
you get a lot of force few items

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like revenue operations that are
taken further, etc. But by and

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large, these are siloed
solutions. So a business

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operation, person or business
engineer, should be able to

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develop a solution on its on its
platform and its solution. And

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to bring it to production. Using
a growing team, with the

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understanding that people will
break things, you need to be

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able to test it. And we will
need to automate all the way to

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take out the human factor the
human error factor all the way,

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all the way to production. And
they're doing it on business

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applications, and mostly doing
it using no code. This is sort

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of the realm of what what we're
talking about, I'm talking

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about. But we believe in
soldering, what we're trying to

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push is the differences or they
know that the cutting between

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business a business operation,
and DevOps will start to blur.

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Because the way we look at
things, once you describe it in

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code, and you want to automate
it, and you can use your circle,

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ci or you can use it to have
actions to actually move things

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around. So you rely on the
traditional DevOps people to do

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that. You want to do testing,
you can start using their tools

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as well. So it will start to
blur and you will start to see,

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you know, we already starting
service some customers, places

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where your TerraForm is actually
worked with your Sato

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representation. And once you
have it in code, there's a lot

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of tools and architectures and
processes to actually bring

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everything together.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Great, that
that made perfect sense to me. I

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think I liked that the
conversation where it's going

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now, this might be a little bit
of a silly question, but I will

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asked it anyway. Is, in your
mind, low code, no code a threat

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to the developer?

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Rami: No, it's just it's, I
think about it is like, it's

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like Python is not a threat to
JavaScript. It's just another

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way of creating solutions. And
the problem with the no code is

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essentially in the name, you
don't have the code. And the

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code is an artifact that beyond
implementing things gives you

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structure. Your way to follow up
on changes give you a way to

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it's a language that people can
share. In a way if you're

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looking for analogies, like
sheet music, if you have an

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orchestra and you want to make
sure that people are talking

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about the same thing, give them
sheet music. If you have two

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people, you know, jamming
together you don't have to have

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that But if you want to have a
very effective way, you have to

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have a language. So with code,
it's easy. If you're using

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Python, everybody can look at
Python go to get, look at what's

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happening, changes, Revert
things can make themselves

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acquainted with what's going on.
And you know, you increase the

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level of knowledge, knowledge,
longer learned tribal knowledge.

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When you go to the no code, part
of the world, it's very much

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different because you have no
language. And this, what we're

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trying to solve the basic thing
that we're trying to solve it,

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let's give them a language that
they can start sharing, let's

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give them sheet music. And they
can start, you know, playing

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together as no larger teams.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, makes
sense. So as for DevOps

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Institute, skills and reskilling
and upskilling, of course, is

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essential. There's a lot of
folks right now, who are as we

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know, either call it the great
reshuffle or call it the great

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resignation, I rather call it
the great shuffle because I

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think people are starting to
change positions for whatever

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reasons. So if I wanted to be a
from a DevOps engineer, if I

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wanted to become a biz ops, or
business engineer, what kind of

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skills does this individual
need? What would you recommend

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that person to go look at?

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00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:22,080
Rami: It's, so I don't think
there's a skill, a DevOps skill,

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usually a DevOps engineer will
be I'm a DevOps engineer, and

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I'm dealing with AWS, lambda, or
I have have an expertise,

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categorized in our I live in the
DevOps group. But I have

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expertise, it's very similar
here. Because my expertise could

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be I'm a Salesforce engineer. So
I know how to handle Salesforce,

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the processes and tools I'm
using is the key into DevOps. So

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once I'm done doing my stuff, I
kind of I fetch them, as I

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described before, I create a PR
pull request, and from there on,

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the automation will take care of
it. But my expertise is geared

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towards more mature system or
what I'm trying to do this way.

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I'm a Business engineer. So the
DevOps part of things is about

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how the organization or create
the processes, tools and

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infrastructure, my expertise
relies on the on what I'm doing

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Eveline Oehrlich: A little bit
of a side question makes me

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the day to day.

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think of, you know, companies
like SAP and the none. Well,

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they're, as we know, they're
shifting to the cloud, as well,

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but does Salto also address
those type of business

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applications, which are non SAS.

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Rami: We have, we have customer
requesting there. We're still a

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startup, it's hard for us. To
expand beyond. I'll tell you

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this. We are we are addressing
right now cloud and the fast

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moving applications, meaning the
cloud ones, and the ones that

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have API, we will at some point
go to on prem as well, if the

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market will require that what we
have is a very long list of

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customer requirements. It's
pretty support the explicit for

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that and we just go, you know,
the number of drivers, but

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there's no limitation.
Obviously, we can go on prem,

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it's just a matter of what do we
prioritize right now in what you

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know, what's the good one?

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, yeah,
that was a little bit of my

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industry analysts brain showing
through. So I apologize. That

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was my curiosity. And so to go
back to the cause of our

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podcast, lots and lots and lots
of silos exist, right? And

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that's, I think, thats one of
the biggest challenges. Now I

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listen to a presentation at an
event where a gentleman was

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saying that organizations should
not eliminate silos, they should

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actually continue their silos.
Maybe it's a bit of a

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00:18:56,230 --> 00:19:00,700
nomenclature, right? I think
maybe he meant to say, there

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should be experts, but I thought
he said silos. So I wanted to

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00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,000
ask you, what are your thoughts
on silos in organizations. What

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do you see within your
customers? I read, for example,

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the company case study you guys
had on your website on Monday? I

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00:19:16,420 --> 00:19:21,580
think it's monday.com. Right,
fairly successful. No longer a

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startup. So they obviously, have
hired a lot of generalists, and

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they have a really great success
story. So for those who are

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00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:33,430
listening in, go look at that
case study, but give us your

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00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:34,750
thoughts on silos.

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Rami: Yeah, so that is usually
the negative term. I'm trying to

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00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:43,770
think of an example where silos
actually looked at this as a

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00:19:43,770 --> 00:19:49,080
positive term. If you know, you
should have expertise expertise

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does not mean silo. If you have
silos, it means that you have

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00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:56,550
overhead because you have to
recreate everything within each

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silo. It means that you have to
have a very strict way of

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00:20:00,990 --> 00:20:03,930
handing over things from silo to
silo because essentially this,

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this is one organization and you
have to have NetSuite and needs

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00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:12,450
to work with Salesforce needs to
work with JIRA. So you have to

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00:20:12,450 --> 00:20:16,590
create that you have different
cadence between the silos, which

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00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:19,770
means that if one silo decides
to release one every six months

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and another silos decided to
release every week, you have a

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00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,130
problem, because there's no way
of doing that. Silos create a

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00:20:26,130 --> 00:20:29,550
situation in which you have
different quality requirements

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00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:36,060
between this. There's no way of
maintaining silos for long term,

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00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:38,790
unless you really, really strict
and you're really, really big

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company willing to spend a lot
of money for no reason. If you

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00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:45,600
take a look at what happened, it
again, we're trying to mimic in

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00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,250
a way the it turning into
DevOps, it used to be so used to

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00:20:50,250 --> 00:20:54,690
have in the past, and I used to
I live there, you had r&d

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00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,140
organization, you had it, you
finished development, you tested

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00:20:58,140 --> 00:21:01,530
it, you moved it to it. And
every six months, if you're

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00:21:01,530 --> 00:21:05,250
really good, or every year, you
could have another release. That

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00:21:05,250 --> 00:21:08,640
was sort of a silo and we had a
very strict policy on how things

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00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,500
move. And it was a pain from you
know, we moved from release one

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every year. Now in Saudi we're
doing a few weeks. And it's not,

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00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:21,630
because we're smarter, it's not
because we no better people,

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it's because we broke the silos,
we have better tools

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infrastructure in order to do
that. So I think the goal for

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00:21:29,670 --> 00:21:33,360
each organization should be to
break as many silos you can kind

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00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:37,080
of have one organization for
automation, one organization for

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00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,930
testing, if you need that one
organization for that, take care

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00:21:39,930 --> 00:21:43,500
of gate or whatever, and have
the experts deal with what

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00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:47,160
they're experts about. If I have
an expert on Salesforce, they

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00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,610
don't need to understand, get
only those 10 Release

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Management, they need to focus
on Salesforce. If you have the

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right infrastructure for that,
once they're done, they move it

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00:21:58,860 --> 00:22:01,200
on, someone else would take care
of that, or the automatic

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process will take care of that.
I don't see any value in silos

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00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:06,930
to be honest. And I'm trying to
think of example, while I'm

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00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:09,540
talking I don't have a good
example of subtle, positive

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silence.

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00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:13,870
Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I was. I
was with my colleague, and we

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00:22:13,870 --> 00:22:18,220
were looking at each other.
Absolutely disagreeing with a

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00:22:18,220 --> 00:22:21,820
gentleman because I absolutely
agree with you. There is just a

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lot of I call it a WOT, a waste
of time in organizations who

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have built these very, very
entrenched silo teams. And

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00:22:31,660 --> 00:22:35,440
there's also this NIH right, not
invented here, or that finger

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00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,620
pointing with, again, with
DevOps, where we have blameless

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00:22:38,650 --> 00:22:43,090
and kind of a safety culture.
That's starting to go away, we

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00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:47,620
see an increase in collaboration
and all of that is wonderful.

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00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:51,970
All right. Wow. Why is the clock
always running so fast when you

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00:22:51,970 --> 00:22:55,090
have a good conversation? And
when you have a bad one it is

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00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,290
like it just doesn't move? All
right, we have two more

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00:22:59,290 --> 00:23:03,730
questions and then I'll let you
go back to your day job, of

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00:23:03,730 --> 00:23:09,370
course. So if you think about
2023, and here, anything goes,

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00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:15,190
can you pick your favorite? What
question are you asking yourself

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about 2023?

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00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,250
Rami: Yeah, there's, you know,
beyond the macroeconomic

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00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:29,970
climate, it's hard. It's, I can
tell you that I can shed a light

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00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,020
on the, you know, the startup
view on that, because we are

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00:23:34,020 --> 00:23:38,550
startup that grows. And when
you're growing, you trying to

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00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:41,040
adjust you always trying to
adjust you look, if you get

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00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,340
customer feedback, let's assume
you lose a customer trying to

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00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:46,770
understand why if you adjust,
that's what you're doing, you

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00:23:46,770 --> 00:23:48,990
kind of read the market and
adjust that. But you know how to

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00:23:48,990 --> 00:23:51,840
do this is what startups are
good at. We can move really

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00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:55,530
fast. The problem with the
climate right now that they've

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00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:59,400
cast a long shadow, and
everything. So you lost a

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00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,160
customer, you're not really sure
if you lost them because of the

366
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,420
product, or you lost it because
they lost the budget. It's not

367
00:24:06,420 --> 00:24:11,670
it's not always clear. So it
slows things down. Everything

368
00:24:11,670 --> 00:24:16,470
becomes slower in your ability
to react is it's more

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00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:19,800
problematic when you have to run
few options like brand

370
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,460
predictions in parallel in order
to understand things. And that

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00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:26,430
usually kind of slows things
down this. I think this is the

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00:24:26,430 --> 00:24:29,880
biggest thing I'm trying to
understand right now. Trying to

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00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,440
sort of crystal ball. When this
you know, the derivative will

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00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,400
become positive again so we can
plan our budgets and everything

375
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,540
towards that. I think this is
the biggest thing for me to 23

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00:24:42,540 --> 00:24:46,890
How do I how do we position
ourselves correctly to still

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00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:51,840
evolve? While understanding you
know the effect of this

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00:24:52,530 --> 00:24:55,350
microclimate? I think this is
the biggest thing on my mind.

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00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,030
Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I think
you're speaking out of the heart

380
00:24:58,030 --> 00:25:02,140
of many leaders in and across
the globe and in different

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00:25:02,530 --> 00:25:06,070
verticals, software companies,
NAND software, etc, etc.

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00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:10,030
Fantastic. All right, I have one
more question unrelated to

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Salto. What's your favorite
thing to do on the weekend?

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Rami: Well, I like riding
motorcycles. Strangely enough.

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Yeah.

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00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:27,690
Eveline Oehrlich: We should meet
up somewhere. I used to actually

387
00:25:27,690 --> 00:25:30,210
do motocross many, many years
ago. I don't do that today

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00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,880
anymore. It's a little too
dangerous. But what do you ride?

389
00:25:33,390 --> 00:25:34,710
What machine do you have?

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00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:41,290
Rami: So I am doing track days.
I have an affiliate obviously

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00:25:41,290 --> 00:25:49,960
for now. And I have an off road
one. I broke, I broke many

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00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:55,180
bones. I have like, the amount
of scars I have it. It's, it's

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00:25:55,180 --> 00:25:58,750
amazing. So I like that. And,
um, because of what you said,

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because of the risk. I'm
starting to think about maybe

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00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:04,180
bicycle, it's something I need
to get back to as well. Because

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00:26:04,180 --> 00:26:08,260
the you know, the tools is, is
fun. So you need to figure out a

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00:26:08,260 --> 00:26:11,830
way to break loose bones. So
that's my focus right now.

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00:26:12,790 --> 00:26:14,890
Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent.
Well, this has been a great

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00:26:14,890 --> 00:26:17,980
conversation. I really much
appreciate it. Our listeners are

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00:26:17,980 --> 00:26:22,720
appreciating it. For those of
you who want to know more Salto

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00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:28,150
can be found much more
information. Rami, thank you for

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00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:32,950
bringing wisdom to us. Great,
great conversation. Next time

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00:26:32,950 --> 00:26:38,590
maybe we do a little motorcycle
podcast on how to hurt ourselves

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00:26:38,590 --> 00:26:43,600
less or maybe should the
conversation to the biking. I

405
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:44,290
appreciate it.

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00:26:44,380 --> 00:26:46,960
Rami: That'll be amazing. That's
much more interesting.

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00:26:47,050 --> 00:26:49,060
Motorcycles are more
interesting. Yeah. So if you can

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00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,870
Eveline Oehrlich: That sounds
great. Let's think about that.

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00:26:49,060 --> 00:26:49,930
do that, that'd be great.

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00:26:52,870 --> 00:26:56,560
Super, thank you so much. Have a
great day and thank you again

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00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,980
for everybody listening in
today, Eveline Oehrlich, Humans

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00:26:59,980 --> 00:27:04,240
of DevOps podcast at the DevOps
Institute with Rami Tamir. from

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00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,240
Salto. Thank you. Bye. Thank
you.

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00:27:09,150 --> 00:27:11,250
Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the humans of

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00:27:11,250 --> 00:27:14,790
DevOps podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

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00:27:14,790 --> 00:27:18,150
access to even more great
resources like this. Until next

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00:27:18,150 --> 00:27:21,600
time, remember, you are part of
something bigger than yourself.

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00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:22,680
You belong