Ben 0:06 Welcome to a brand new series of the Freelance Corner Podcast. I'm Ben. For those who are returning to the podcast, you may be wondering what's happened to Faye and Jess. Unfortunately, they haven't changed their names or deepened their voice, instead this series will be hosted by myself and my colleague Orla.
Orla 0:21 Thanks, Ben! This series of Freelance Corner will continue to celebrate the wonderful world of freelancing, including the challenges, the triumphs, and everything in between. In each episode, we'll be joined by an inspiring freelancer who will share their story with us, some insider tips and advice for you in your own freelancing career.
Ben 0:41 Today we're speaking to Katy Carlisle, otherwise known as the SQ SP Queen. Katy is a web designer, founder of Freelance Folk, the co host of 99 problems but a boss ain't one an IPSE members forum leader, and judge for last year's Freelancer of the Year awards.
Orla 0:56 On this episode, we're going to find out how you can create a business that works for you. Welcome to the show, Katy!
Katy 1:04 Thank you.
Orla 1:05 Can I just say that I absolutely love the alias SQ SP Queen. I think it's great! For our listeners, can you just tell us a bit more about who you are and what you do?
Katy 1:15 Yeah, absolutely. So I've been freelance since 2013, and pretty much all of that time, I've been building Squarespace websites for other freelancers, really small businesses and charities or nonprofits, and after a couple of years, I also introduced a training element. So I teach people how to make their own websites using Squarespace, and a couple of years ago, I rebranded to SQ SP Queen so my business name used to be The Wheel Exists, and the idea was all around, not reinventing the wheel and pairing people up with technology that would just make their lives easier and not needing to create like a, you know, £20,000 custom website if you just wanted a little portfolio or something. So it was helping people to do that. But then I kind of decided I wanted to firmly hitch myself to the Squarespace wagon, and a lot of people had independently called me the SQ SP queen. So when I was looking for a new business name, that was the one that kind of called out to me the most. So it spelled SQ SP, because otherwise, Squarespace might sue me, but it is basically and we're just we're just quote set whenever we say it to avoid litigation, it's fine.
Ben 2:24 I mean, no one wants to be sued. I think that goes without saying. Like, as I said earlier, you work in so many different things. I think on your Twitter, you say you have your finger in a lot of pies.
Katy 2:35 Oh, yeah, I love a side project.
Ben 2:37 Is there anything you like wish you'd known about freelancing before you started? Because you've got so many different things like, would you have gone into all those things would you have? How would you have done it, if you had to speak to yourself, again?
Katy 2:47 I think I probably would still do all those things. Because my side project is actually what keeps me from getting bored. So before I went freelance, I've never lasted a job for more than three years at a time, because I would just get bored, it becomes too easy. Or I just find that the enjoyment had gone out of it, and so I'd be looking for the next challenge the next adventure, and freelancing is just a constant challenge, which is great. But with you know, the fact that I've done client work for almost 10 years now, I think I can keep it interesting in quite a few ways, and I do try and switch it up like rebranding and things, but having the side projects is the thing that actually gives me that feeling of newness and ooh, shiny and keeps me from just feeling like I'm doing the same thing all the time. So that's why I do quite often start a new project and kind of think, right, okay, actually, what am I lacking at the moment? How can I kind of manifest that and not damage my current business by just throwing my toys out of the pram and going right, I'm totally changing my career. But actually, the side projects really helped me so I really love doing them. And so the first one I set up was Freelance Folk, which is a community for freelancers. It started as a very informal meetup for freelancers who wanted to sit and work together in Manchester. It was before co working was really a thing. And so for me setting up that side project was because I had a need personally that wasn't being met, because there wasn't really that much to bring freelancers together in a way that they could just sit and work. There was maybe one co working space in Manchester at the time, unlike now, where it's like every second building, but I just wanted that connection. I felt quite isolated being at home on my own, even though I'd been really looking forward to working from home and not having to go out to networking events and things like I had done in my previous job. I actually really wanted that connection and that kind of office vibes. So that was why I started Freelance Folk and that really helped me to then meet loads of other really cool freelancers and I've done business with a lot of them and collaborated with them and so yes, it is taking on more work but it has so many rewards as well. So yeah, I love, I love doing lots of different things and keeps me honest.
Ben 5:06 There's something about that with working together like obviously, going freelance, you don't have that space, how did you find it when you actually started Freelance Folk were people quite hesitant at joining or where they jumping straightaway to go like, I want to co work and come together?
Katy 5:21 it took off quite quickly because there was a real demand for it, I think loads of other people that felt exactly the same way of that, and just home and the postman has longer conversations with me than he really wants to because I've not spoken to another human being all day. And there was a real desire for that connection, but in an informal way. So what we did for Freelance Folk was we would just meet up in a community space, it was very informal. And so if people were the kind of people who wouldn't normally go to a networking event, because it's really scary, I mean, I'm super confident but even I hate networking events, that kind of awkwardness, and so because we had like, our laptops there, they almost became shields for people, I think. So if you were a bit more introvert, or if you were a bit less confident, you could still come along, and you could just work and then chip into the conversation as and when you felt able to and it took a lot of pressure off for people, and so I think having the kind of informal approach really helped, and it was always, you know, you don't have to commit to coming for the whole time, you can drop in drop out really flexible. Yeah, it was it was really interesting. Actually, I thought it might just be me sitting on my own with a cup of coffee. But there was always somebody else there for me to chat to and create this really lovely network of freelancers that I have now.
Ben 6:38 I can't speak for Orla, but like, I'm not a big fan of networking events, I just find it's just people, they're just trying to sell you stuff.
Orla 6:45 Yeah, I think sometimes it can be like that. However, I think they're really, really helpful when you want to connect with that wider community. And if you're freelancing at home all day, they can be really, helpful and boost your mood and your well being.
Ben 7:00 I think it's quite nice. The idea that you can come together and just have a coffee. I do find that really interesting. Like how you've made this space, because for a lot of freelancers, it's work from home, don't go in. But like, obviously, there must be stuff like work life balance, still you have everyone coming into the office and seeing that's still hours of their day going in. Obviously, I know there must be like people being flexible with it, but how does it work?
Katy 7:23 So we've not really done any face to face meet ups since COVID. We paused all the face to face stuff when COVID happened, I also happen to move to Anglesey at around the same time. So I knew it was a planned break, actually, I knew I was gonna be taking a break, I just didn't know it's gonna be like a three year break! So we've actually kept going on Zoom rather than face to face, and we're now looking at potentially going back to doing a face to face catch up every month or something like that in Manchester to, to kind of keep the momentum going again, and maybe kind of bring in some people who are new to freelancing and everything because we've got a reasonable network already. But it would be nice to expand that and yeah, be there for for new people. But there are lots of other co working spaces now. So there's a bit less demand for it in that sense, because there are now places that people can go to to sit and work with others. But I think a lot of them don't facilitate the conversational aspect. It's not a social thing. It's more of a, here's a space that isn't your house that you can come and work in. And I think some co working spaces are better than others that are actually really fostering that community connection and getting people to talk to each other. But I do think that yeah, people are probably more reluctant to to leave the house now than they used to be I know I am, you know, going anywhere is a bit more of an ordeal than it used to be. But equally people are really bored of being stuck at home now. So there's actually quite a desire to get out of the house and connect with real humans in real life again, I'm really finding that desire is coming back quite strongly for me now to actually do more in person training and events and meetups and things, and so hopefully I'll be hosting an IPSE member's meetup as well in Manchester later this year.
Ben 9:11 Well, you heard it here first. So anyone listening to this. You can get drinks in Manchester.
Orla 9:17 It's going to be really exciting!
Ben 9:19 But I do find that networking is still like hours on your day. And that sort of reminds me of research from IPSE that showed that 1 in 10 freelancers reported of taking no days off at all last year. So like if you're going to freelancing events you can't do that. But Katy, what do you think about taking time off? Is that something you find difficult doing?
Katy 9:39 So I'm quite strict with my clients. So I didn't used to be, I basically used to be the biggest people pleaser ever. And if the client asked me to do anything, I'd be like, Yes, I can do it tomorrow for you. Even if they didn't need it for a week. I was finding that I'd almost making life harder for myself than it needed to be and I'd be running around trying to accommodate what I thought the client's needs were without actually checking with them first, if that was essential or urgent. And so I think it's just something that I've learned over time and implemented quite gradually. And certainly, I know a lot of people found that during lockdown when work stopped for a lot of us. Yes, it was a scary time financially. But actually, a lot of us really appreciated just having a bit more space in our days and having more time and not having that kind of franticness of, oh, deadline deadline deadline. And I think I've spoken to so many other freelancers who also said that they don't want to go back to how it was before lockdown, they want to keep a bit more space and a bit more padding in the day and have more time for themselves. And I know I've definitely felt like that. So now I'm, I'm quite - I don't know if strict is exactly the right word. But I'm quite firm, is probably the best word with my boundaries with clients. So without knowing it, they actually go through a little client training programme with me where I teach them how to be good clients for me. And so I make sure that I set expectations at the start, I tell them, you know, if you want to get in touch with me quickly, I will always reply really quickly on WhatsApp. If you want a quick response that's the way to get in touch with me. And I don't mind answering Whatsapps anytime of the day, really, if I'm awake, it doesn't bother me, it's a quick two minute thing to do. So that I choose the boundaries myself. Some other people would not want someone to be Whatsapping them all the time. I'm quite happy for them to do that. And they understand that if they want a quick response, that's the way to get in touch with me. If they email me, then that's going to take me longer to respond to and I try to make sure that I don't live in my email inbox. So I try to only check my email two or three times a day, so that I can actually focus on the tasks that I plan to do rather than getting sucked into like replying to everything. Because you could literally spend a whole day just in your inbox, if you're not careful. I use Calendly, which has been a huge game changer for me in terms of boundaries for clients. For anyone who doesn't know what Calendly is, it's a way of automatically booking an appointment with somebody. So I have it set so people cannot book me. They can only book me after a week. So if they wanted to book me tomorrow, they can't they have to wait a week. So I always have a week's notice of any new events that are coming into my calendar. And I thought that people would be upset about that I thought people would want to speak to me urgently and turns out I vastly overestimated my own importance in people's lives. But yeah, so it's really good, and I have it, I'm kind of playing around with which hours I'm available. I used to do Monday to Thursday available for calls, and I've always tried to keep Friday separate for kind of my own projects and not try and do too much client work on a Friday, and then I've tried taking it down from Monday to Wednesday, only for calls. And it was 1030 till five and now I'm trying 1130 till four. And it's still working. So I just keep tweaking it to the point where clients are not getting upset, but it's giving me the most flexibility because it's kind of annoying for me if I've got one random call in the middle of the day. So I'm trying to group my calls together and do all my calls at the same time, which means that I've got days that are flexible, because one thing I love doing is watersports, and so if the conditions are good, I want to be able to get out and on the water, and I don't want to have to interrupt that for like a 30 minute call in the middle of the day. So that's why I try and keep days separate so that I can still do the things that I love and do my freelance work, and then the rest of the time. Maybe I'll work in the evening if I've gone surfing in the day or something like that.
Orla 13:51 Okay, yeah, that's really interesting. I also love the sea, and I moved to the seaside during the pandemic to work remotely. So yeah, I totally understand how that helps you gain more of a positive work life balance throughout your day. Following on from that I was just quite curious - do you have any tips for a freelancer who is struggling with multiple projects or multiple deadlines and their feeling quite overwhelmed?
Katy 14:16 Yes, yes, I do. So the first thing I'd say is, if you're feeling overwhelmed, get it actually all out of your head and make sure that you've captured it somewhere because I know when I feel overwhelmed if I actually write down what I need to deal with, it's less than I think it is. So one of the questions I quite like to ask myself is what tasks if I completed them by the end of the month would make me feel like I'm in control and happy with where I'm up to with my work? And so before I answer that question, I'm feeling like oh, there's like 50 things I need to do. It's gonna - I'm never gonna get it done. It's so hard. It's so difficult. And then I write it down and there's like 10 things, and it's much more manageable than I actually think it is. So the first thing is actually just capture what's actually important and what actually needs doing and what is just noise and distractions. And then another really helpful thing is actually to just say, for the things which are not that important, actively opt out of doing them right away. So I have a list of my tasks per month. And if I know I'm not going to do it in that month, I deliberately move it to a later month, so that I'm not putting that pressure on myself. Because sometimes, we tend to overestimate what we can do. And I think kidding yourself that you're gonna do, everything adds to that mental burden. So I think actually just being really honest about what you can realistically achieve, and then committing to doing that, well, is better than trying to pretend that you are going to be able to achieve everything because your task list is never probably going to get finished. And once you accept that, it's actually quite liberating. So I'd say yeah, definitely write it down and have you know, a system that works for you, identify what your priorities are, and focus on them. I do some work for a company called Caveday who are brilliant and what they do as they run deep work focus sessions on Zoom, and so you basically go on a zoom call, and there's a facilitator. So I'm one of the facilitators, I just do a few hours a month for them, and they'll basically guide you through something in preparation to get you the right mindset, and then you kind of turn off all distractions, and you've got the accountability of everybody else that's working there with you, and you just commit to doing something focused work for about 50 minutes, and it's amazing how much you can get done when you actually create those conditions as well. So I think that's the other thing is create that focus time for yourself, where you can work on the things where maybe it takes a little bit of time to get into it, and you need to really be able to give all your attention to something rather than flitting between lots of projects. So identify what needs that. The final thing I'd say would be if you're feeling overwhelmed, it might be that you've not broken the project down into small enough steps - and I know I am guilty of that, even though I know that I should do it, I still sometimes forget and be like, Why am I feeling stressed about this? Okay, I've not actually identified what the next doable action is. It's still this kind of amorphous blob of a project. So looking at what the next action is that you can do, what's the smallest next step you can take to move that project forward? Because starting is often half of the battle. So if you can find a way to make it seem less daunting, then that's one way into it I'd say.
Orla 17:43 I definitely think that multitasking is a bit of a myth.
Katy 17:43 Oh, yeah.
Orla 17:46 Previously, I used to try and multitask a lot, and it's just absolutely scrambles your brain.
Katy 17:50 Yeah. Because actually, you don't multitask, you switch quickly between one task and another. And there have been studies that have shown how long it takes you to actually get back properly, cognitively into a task. If you keep switching, you lose so much kind of brain power by doing it. So definitely focusing is so helpful.
Orla 18:08 Yeah, for sure, that actually leads me on to my next question of when you're focusing really hard on something on a project, do you have a particular type of music that you'd like to listen to?
Katy 18:19 I don't know, that's a really good question. So my partner and I both work from home in the same room a lot of the time, and so I'm probably more bothered about music than he is. Sometimes we'll put on just coffee shop noise, you can find playlists with just background noise to kind of simulate a coffee shop. So we did that during lockdown we we did barista day. So we had we got some really nice coffee and I wore my most hipster clothes and we made some cake and made some really nice coffee and put the the coffee shop noise on in the background. And it was just kind of trying to recreate that feeling of being in a coffee shop because we both missed it. So we'll do just kind of chilled out background noise I'd say it's probably the main one we do and just yeah, anything that's not too distractingly catchy that I'm gonna sing along to.
Ben 19:07 I'm gonna hope that the coffee shop wasn't too much of people complaining about different milks or that in the background.
Katy 19:14 Oh, god, that's me. Hi, can I have my awkward coffee order? Please? Thank you. I'm the one that they dread.
Ben 19:21 I genuinely don't know how people do that. But with these things, is it something you sort of learn very early on then in your like freelancing career? Or did you find like sort of managing different accounts, is that something that you started off straightaway, because obviously, experience elsewhere? Or was it suddenly clients chasing you and you went, oh, wait, this is completely different.
Katy 19:40 Yeah, I've never worked with clients before. So that was a very new experience. But I've always been a bit of a productivity time management geek, and so in my previous job, I've done a lot of focus around kind of how can I make this job work for me and my previous boss was amazing and she was always really inspirational and saying to everyone that works there, you know, create the life that you want, make it work for you, and she's sort of shot herself in the foot a little bit, because loads of people went off to set up their own businesses, because they were so inspired, myself included, but she was always really keen on us learning and training and developing. And so I did a lot of work around that. And then we'd all kind of share what we'd learned. So I was a sort of productivity time tech person. And so I'd share what I've learned about that. And then other people share what they learned about other things. So I think I was probably pretty organised beforehand. But then it's just a very different way of working with clients. Because before I had one boss, asking me to do things, and all of a sudden, now I've got 10 bosses asking me to do things, the client management side has definitely been learned over time. And similarly, one thing I've definitely learned over time that I didn't have at the beginning was actually that kind of gut instinct of whether a client was a good fit for me, and the ability to say no, if they weren't, so I may have had a bit of a suspicion. But I would have kind of panicked and gone oh, no, I'll take on the work. Because I don't know if there's any money coming in, I don't want to be rude and say no. So I'll just, you know, do myself a disservice instead. So now I'm very careful with the clients that I take on and make sure that there is a good fit, because I think having that relationship with the clients is a huge part of being able to manage them well, and make them feel happy. A lot of what I do is actually around being proactive with my clients. So the reason I don't have clients chasing me for things is because I give them regular updates. And I know the ones that are more likely to be worrying. So I make a special effort to anticipate their worries and say, okay, this is what's going to be happening. And I love planning, and I love deadlines. So it's nice for me to do that as well. It makes me feel happy to know that, you know, the plan is coming forward, and everyone knows what's happening. And everything is okay. So, for me, it's yeah the communication that is something that I had to learn, but that it's been so valuable.
Yeah, I think you raised some really interesting points about knowing whether or not a client is good for you. What would you say are your client red flags?
The first one is if they try and negotiate beyond what is reasonable. So if they come to me and say, How much does it cost to make a website and I say it costs this much. And they say, Okay, well, can you do it cheaper? No, that's, that's how much it costs. And I'll say, actually, that's how much it costs for me to create the site for you. But if you want to do some training, then here's my training costs, we can do that. And then you can do okay, well, what, what about if I do some of it? And you do some of it? And what about if you just don't do this? But what if I have one less page? No it's a fixed fee. Okay. Okay, well, what if what if this and if there's that constant trying to negotiate before you've even started to me, that's a big alarm bell through either trying to shoehorn more in or reduce the price or make something happen faster. That's a big red flag, especially if the client says, oh, it's really urgent, I need it doing really, really quickly. And then I say, Okay, have you got all your content ready? And they're like, oh, no, no, but I'll do it, I'll do it. I don't necessarily trust that they will do it. And it's often the ones who say they want something urgently, the slowest to provide the content and the inputs. It's not always the case, but it is a red flag, because to me, I want to work with someone who's organised as well. It's a two way street, because I cannot build a site without the input from a client. So I need them to be organised and be providing me information in a timely fashion and doing it that way. So that's one red flag. The other one would be if they just from the offset, are very overly needy. So if they want to have 15 calls before they're willing to even consider parting with any money, I'm like, No, sorry. You know, you've had all the information you need. If you're not willing to make a decision based on that I'm probably not the right person for you. So they're probably the biggest two for me would be that sort of wanting to use your time for free before going down that road. And I think the type of projects as well, like I really am quite specific. So I work with very small nonprofits. If I have to have a call with more than three people to start the work again, I'll probably rule that out. I work with freelancers, mainly service based businesses, and very, very small businesses like coffee shops, or a few brewery websites and things like that. But it's never a larger business and I have had larger businesses come to me before and I just said that's actually not my specialist area. You'd be better working with someone who's more experienced working with sort of the SME plus whereas I'm very much the micro business side of things.
Ben 25:05 Obviously don't name names. But do you have any horror stories from red flags, or anything they've said, I know you've mentioned a few things. But is there anything that sticks in your mind?
Katy 25:15 I've been reasonably lucky, I actually ended a project once, halfway through. So I have a contract. And there's a clause in my contract that allows me to do that and just charge the client for the work I've done so far. And that was it was a few years ago. And I was recommended to these clients by somebody else I know. And so I wanted to kind of honour that recommendation by taking on the work, but I did have a gut instinct, and I should have listened to it. But because this person is recommended me, I didn't want to kind of snub them and be like, Oh, no, I'm not going to do that work, after you very kindly suggested me. And it was just a lot of that, that sort of very you know, constantly needing reassurance even though I'd actually provided the information, I'd given them an update, and I'd given them a timeframe. So I'd say okay, this, this update will be done by Friday. So I send a link out to clients where they can see the progress so they can look at the site whenever they want. But most of them don't do it until I tell them that I've made any changes because there's no point. But they were looking at it on the Monday and the Tuesday and emailing me going. We've not seen any changes we've not seen any changes, like no, they're gonna be done by Friday. And then on the Thursday, they sent me this really long email about how they just don't have faith in me, they don't trust me, I've not delivered on the things that I've said, I'm like, but but tomorrow is the deadline, that's what I've set aside the time to do the work. So what why? And I just said, Well, if you don't trust me, then I'm not the right fit for you. So let's just stop this project, and you can find someone else and I just sacked them basically, because I am not willing to keep doing this, I'm not willing to work with somebody who isn't actually going to trust that I'm gonna deliver when I said I would and I had previously delivered for the previous milestone I delivered on time and done everything that was needed. So they didn't really have any reason not to trust me. So I think that was that was the hardest one for me. I have had one instance where I was working with a company that then went bankrupt. So I didn't get paid for some of the work that I'd done. So I always charge half upfront and half at the end. So I got the first 50% But I didn't get the second 50% Because they went bankrupt halfway through. So that's the only time where I've like not got paid at all.
Ben 27:17 I can't imagine that. I'd be very annoyed if that was me. Where's the other half? Where's the other half? I think finally, I just want to ask you, what's the best thing about being a freelancer? Obviously, we're gonna have all these, you know, horror stories, but like, what's the best thing? What's the best thing about it?
Katy 27:33 Flexibility 100%. Like, I love that on any given day, I can decide what I'm going to do with my day, and there's no one really that's gonna tell me any different. Unless obviously, like, you know, I've got prearranged commitments with clients and things, but again, I'm in control about when those happen. Being able to say, right, okay, I'm in the mood to do some creative work, I can do that, I'm in the mood to do some writing, I'm in the mood to do some actually more code-y stuff, I can do that. If I'm in the mood to go for a walk, I'll go for a walk, and I think a big part of my life is making sure that I do have that time outside of work. So for example, where I live, there's a few of us in the neighbourhood that go swimming in the sea, but it's very tidal. So there's only a few hours a day when we can swim. So I always put that time in my calendar first, so that no one can book me during the time when I can swim. So then I've always I always know, I've got that time available, I'm not going to have a call clashing with it. So just being able to do that, and having that flexibility and being able to just decide, yeah, I'm gonna create a new side project, I'm gonna close this side project, because it's not working for me, or I'm gonna just change my name, and I'm gonna up my prices, and I'm going to change my services, and I can just be in control of all of that, and just do it how I want to, and meeting lots of cool people along the way as well. Like, you know, another thing that keeps you from getting bored is all the really cool clients and that I get to work with them. Because it's a lot of nonprofits. It's really, if it makes you feel really nice as well, helping them.
Orla 29:03 It'd be great to hear more about the podcast that you've been working on as well.
Katy 29:05 Yeah, definitely. So myself and my business coach, Michelle, had always talked about doing something where we tackle freelance problems, and we decided a podcast was the way to do it. So a few years ago, we set up doing a podcast having no idea what we were doing at all, and it's called 99 problems, but a boss ain't one, We tackle a different freelance challenge every week on each episode, and I think we're on 73 now, so we're working our way up to 99. So we tackle things like imposter syndrome and getting paid and deciding how much to charge and where to find clients and all kinds of things to do with freelancing, and Michelle brings a lot of the mindset and coaching and development side of things, and then I talk a lot about practical freelance experience and more kind of practical things that you can do and bring in my productivity time management tech side of things. So we cover quite a lot of the ways to tackle that problem in each episode, and then yeah, I've just tried to kind of put a different spin on each one. So we've not run out of problems yet, because apparently, freelancing is quite hard. But we also are very positive, and we look at ways to get around it. And you know, acknowledge the realities of that problem and say, sometimes, you know, it is really hard. But here's how you can actually get started and try and get out of this problem that you're in.
Orla 30:30 Thank you. That sounds great. For our listeners, we're going to drop it in the show notes below. So be sure to check out Katy's podcast and her website as well.
Ben 30:30 Thanks, Katy.
Katy 30:30 Thank you.
Orla 30:30 Well, that's all we've got time for. You'll be able to find information on freelancing in the show notes below and on the freelance corner website.
If you enjoyed the show, make sure you follow us so you don't miss out on our future episodes. You can find us on all major platforms, and let us know what we should quiz an expert on next time. Thanks so much for joining us, Katy!
Ben 31:02 See you next time!
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