1 00:00:02,940 --> 00:00:05,820 Narrator: You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a 2 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:09,450 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,800 knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the SKIL framework. 4 00:00:16,330 --> 00:00:19,540 Lindsey Pollak: I lost almost all of my speaking business at 5 00:00:19,540 --> 00:00:23,770 the beginning of COVID. And I had to pivot very quickly and 6 00:00:23,770 --> 00:00:26,950 the metaphor that I used was recalculating, like when your 7 00:00:26,950 --> 00:00:30,220 GPS takes you down a certain road and you make a wrong turn, 8 00:00:30,220 --> 00:00:32,140 and you have to find a different path. 9 00:00:33,710 --> 00:00:36,800 Eveline Oehrlich: Hello, and welcome to the Humans of DevOps 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,000 Podcast brought to you by the DevOps Institute. My name is 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,760 Eveline Oehrlich, and I'm the Chief Research Officer at the 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,740 DevOps Institute and your host today. Our podcast today is 13 00:00:49,550 --> 00:00:53,600 Navigating Your Career During Times of Crisis, and we're 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,250 having an exciting guest, Lindsey Pollak. Hello, Lindsey. 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:00:59,900 Lindsey Pollak: Thank you for having me. 16 00:01:00,230 --> 00:01:02,450 Eveline Oehrlich: Yes. excited that you're here. Thank you for 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,200 giving us your time. We're very grateful. Let me tell the 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,500 listeners a little bit about you because there is a lot of things 19 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:13,070 here I want to make sure that they know so first of all, 20 00:01:13,190 --> 00:01:16,640 Lindsey is a New York Times bestselling author and one of 21 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,290 the world's leading career and workplace experts. She was named 22 00:01:21,350 --> 00:01:25,820 the 2020 thinker, 50 radar lists, which honors the top 23 00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:29,570 global management thinkers whose work is shaping the future of 24 00:01:29,570 --> 00:01:32,360 how organizations are managed and led. Of course, that is a 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,800 very important topic in where we are in this world. She has 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,550 written many books. Her latest book is the response to the 27 00:01:40,550 --> 00:01:44,480 COVID crisis. It's titled "Recalculating, Navigate your 28 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,780 Career Through the Changing World of Work". It was published 29 00:01:47,780 --> 00:01:53,600 in 2021. Other books, the remix "How to Lead and Succeed in the 30 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,320 Multigenerational Workplace". Then she wrote to the yearbooks 31 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,930 for some of the younger professionals, which I was just 32 00:01:59,930 --> 00:02:03,980 telling Lindsey, I was going to order for my daughters, but I'm 33 00:02:04,070 --> 00:02:06,800 don't want to intrude on them. So if they're listening in 34 00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:10,640 ladies, maybe you should get them. The first one is called 35 00:02:10,640 --> 00:02:13,850 Becoming the Boss new rules for the next generation of leaders 36 00:02:13,850 --> 00:02:17,240 and getting from college to hear your essential guide to 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,220 succeeding in the real world. Normally, Lindsey has a great 38 00:02:22,220 --> 00:02:26,540 speaking audience and consulting clients, which include more than 39 00:02:26,930 --> 00:02:31,010 250 corporations, law firms, and she speaks at conferences and 40 00:02:31,010 --> 00:02:35,270 universities. She has appeared on today's show, The New York 41 00:02:35,270 --> 00:02:41,810 Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, and NPR. And she's also an 42 00:02:41,810 --> 00:02:48,050 ambassador for CAP Finiti V. Brand, LinkedIn, and a 43 00:02:48,050 --> 00:02:51,500 millennial workplace expert for the Hartford and Chair of 44 00:02:51,500 --> 00:02:56,420 Cosmopolitan magazine millennial advisory board. Welcome again, 45 00:02:56,420 --> 00:02:59,270 Lindsey and thank you so much for being here today. 46 00:02:59,450 --> 00:03:01,130 Lindsey Pollak: It's my pleasure, Eveline and thank you 47 00:03:01,130 --> 00:03:01,550 again. 48 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,480 Eveline Oehrlich: So when I was listening to one of your 49 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,680 stories, where you talked about hiding under the cover after you 50 00:03:11,710 --> 00:03:16,420 graduated eating ice cream, not knowing what and how to get 51 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:20,590 started, and that reminded me a lot of myself when I started my 52 00:03:20,590 --> 00:03:27,310 career at 24. Not really wanting to be a programmer, and 53 00:03:27,310 --> 00:03:29,620 somebody called me a programmer, which was a very huge 54 00:03:29,620 --> 00:03:33,580 disappointment. I wanted to just walk out, because I was a 4.0, 55 00:03:33,580 --> 00:03:37,000 master's student in computer science and the gentleman called 56 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,630 me a programmer. So I thought, wow, we have to have this 57 00:03:40,630 --> 00:03:45,910 wonderful woman on this podcast. So again, thank you. We have 58 00:03:45,910 --> 00:03:48,370 ambassadors at the DevOps Institute as well. So I'm 59 00:03:48,370 --> 00:03:52,030 curious, what does your work as an ambassador actually include 60 00:03:52,030 --> 00:03:52,480 Lindsey. 61 00:03:53,189 --> 00:03:56,159 Lindsey Pollak: So I've worked with a couple of organizations 62 00:03:56,459 --> 00:04:01,109 linked in, I was an ambassador for six years from 2009 to 2015. 63 00:04:01,109 --> 00:04:04,709 And now, as you mentioned, I work with kept FINITY. And it's 64 00:04:04,709 --> 00:04:08,219 essentially aligning myself with organizations that I think have 65 00:04:08,219 --> 00:04:12,539 a lot of value to the people I serve, which is people who are 66 00:04:12,539 --> 00:04:15,869 interested in their careers. So I guess it's similar to being a 67 00:04:15,869 --> 00:04:19,289 spokesperson or a partner. But I like the word ambassador, 68 00:04:19,289 --> 00:04:23,609 because it really is a community oriented role that I partner 69 00:04:23,609 --> 00:04:27,149 with organizations that I believe in to get more people 70 00:04:27,149 --> 00:04:31,019 involved in their communities and kept FINITY has a Strengths 71 00:04:31,019 --> 00:04:34,739 profile product that helps people find the strengths that 72 00:04:34,739 --> 00:04:37,889 they have that are unique to them that can still serve them 73 00:04:37,919 --> 00:04:40,529 in their careers. And I really believe in that mission of 74 00:04:40,529 --> 00:04:43,679 having a strengths based career as you said, a lot of us aren't 75 00:04:43,679 --> 00:04:45,839 sure what we want to do when we graduate. And I think when we 76 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,229 start from our natural strengths, we often find a lot 77 00:04:49,229 --> 00:04:52,319 of value and a lot of happiness and fulfillment when we follow 78 00:04:52,319 --> 00:04:52,889 that path. 79 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,960 Eveline Oehrlich: Yep, that is exactly what I keep telling my 80 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,910 daughters to try look for that happiness and fulfillment, and 81 00:05:00,910 --> 00:05:03,700 as they're just starting out the career, of course, they 82 00:05:03,700 --> 00:05:06,940 sometimes think their mom doesn't know anything, just 83 00:05:06,940 --> 00:05:10,840 because I am old. But I sometimes give them a hard time 84 00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:14,410 that I am not yet old. I am still here. And have advice to 85 00:05:14,410 --> 00:05:17,710 give. Great, yeah, we have forgot. We have over 250 86 00:05:17,710 --> 00:05:20,170 ambassadors who help us in a very similar role. So that's 87 00:05:20,170 --> 00:05:24,280 great. I was curious about that. All right, let's talk about this 88 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:28,750 whole topic on Skilling and Upskilling. And in the future, 89 00:05:28,750 --> 00:05:31,960 we've just done some research from the DevOps Institute where 90 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,460 we found that getting, there was a significant amount of lack of 91 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:41,500 skill. That's really the number one challenge for our audience, 92 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:45,790 which is IT leaders, CIOs, and so on. And they're having a 93 00:05:45,790 --> 00:05:49,390 challenge in terms of keeping and retaining and hiring new 94 00:05:49,390 --> 00:05:54,250 skill. So I want to explore this term of with you. Of course, the 95 00:05:54,280 --> 00:06:00,640 great, great resignation is one great vinegar. Yeah, but I have 96 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,570 also heard about the great renegotiation and a great 97 00:06:04,570 --> 00:06:10,240 reshuffle. The three sometimes seem to be used at the same 98 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,350 time, but wanted to see what you're seeing relative to this 99 00:06:14,350 --> 00:06:18,370 whole grade resignation. Is that a US thing? Is it you see it in 100 00:06:18,370 --> 00:06:22,480 Europe? I do see it in Europe, because we've, you know, where I 101 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,680 live it, it is Europe. But I'm curious, what do you see in your 102 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:27,880 work and in your day, 103 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,790 Lindsey Pollak: You know, I prefer to call it the great 104 00:06:30,790 --> 00:06:34,270 reshuffle or the great reevaluation, because some 105 00:06:34,270 --> 00:06:37,330 people, they're not actually resigning, but they are 106 00:06:37,330 --> 00:06:40,210 rethinking how they want to do work or how they want their 107 00:06:40,210 --> 00:06:43,780 careers to be. So we do see a lot of the statistics of people 108 00:06:43,780 --> 00:06:47,620 actually quitting their jobs and starting other jobs in the US 109 00:06:47,620 --> 00:06:50,830 and elsewhere, like Europe, as you mentioned, but I think the 110 00:06:50,830 --> 00:06:56,020 broader picture, which relates to rescaling and upskilling is 111 00:06:56,020 --> 00:07:00,430 that COVID And the advancement of technology and globalization 112 00:07:00,430 --> 00:07:04,210 and all of these different factors generational change, as 113 00:07:04,210 --> 00:07:09,400 well, are all causing people to pause and say, Am I doing what I 114 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:14,380 want to be doing? And is this a, an industry or career that has a 115 00:07:14,380 --> 00:07:18,790 future to it. And for a lot of younger people in particular, 116 00:07:18,790 --> 00:07:23,350 who see many adults now working into their 60s into their 70s, 117 00:07:23,380 --> 00:07:28,300 even some people into their 80s, it's a very long term choice. 118 00:07:28,300 --> 00:07:30,850 And so when you think about what you want to study in school, 119 00:07:30,850 --> 00:07:34,300 what kinds of organizations you want to work for? I think the 120 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:38,140 skill conversation is really important. We have a huge need, 121 00:07:38,140 --> 00:07:41,830 particularly in the US for STEM talent, science, technology, 122 00:07:41,830 --> 00:07:44,530 engineering, and math. And I know that's a global phenomenon. 123 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,010 But we just simply don't have enough people to fill the jobs 124 00:07:48,010 --> 00:07:50,860 that we're going to have. I think that's also a really 125 00:07:50,860 --> 00:07:54,040 important point for older workers who, you know, maybe are 126 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,280 in their 40s and 50s. And say, you know, I'm nowhere near 127 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,450 retirement, what kind of career is going to carry me through the 128 00:08:01,450 --> 00:08:04,750 next several decades where there are going to be jobs available. 129 00:08:04,750 --> 00:08:09,400 So I think a lot of it has been accelerated by COVID. But these 130 00:08:09,670 --> 00:08:12,910 trends of looking for more fulfillment, looking at the 131 00:08:12,910 --> 00:08:15,250 future and what it's going to be, I think that's been going on 132 00:08:15,250 --> 00:08:18,100 for a while, and it's only accelerated with the pandemic. 133 00:08:18,690 --> 00:08:20,370 Eveline Oehrlich: So do you think this is going to get 134 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,750 better or even worse than where we are at this point of time? 135 00:08:24,780 --> 00:08:26,370 What's your crystal ball saying? 136 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:28,950 Lindsey Pollak: My crystal ball is saying that we are in the 137 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:33,750 messy middle of this, we are at the moment where people are 138 00:08:33,900 --> 00:08:37,920 quitting, people are restarting people are searching. I think 139 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,340 there's a lot of uncertainty right now that has continued on 140 00:08:41,340 --> 00:08:44,880 from the pandemic. So I think that it's a tremendous 141 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,710 opportunity for job candidates and employees to use their 142 00:08:49,710 --> 00:08:52,320 leverage right now and say, particularly if you have a 143 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,490 technical skill that you are in demand, if you are eager to 144 00:08:56,490 --> 00:08:59,400 learn a new skill, I think there are tremendous programs and 145 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,820 opportunities globally to rescale or upskill. In 146 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:05,580 technology fields, there's a lot of government and nonprofit 147 00:09:05,580 --> 00:09:09,660 funding for that. Now. I think if you're an employer, this is a 148 00:09:09,660 --> 00:09:12,810 challenging time because employees do have leveraged, 149 00:09:12,810 --> 00:09:16,470 there's a lot more opportunity out there, particularly for 150 00:09:16,470 --> 00:09:19,680 organizations that offer some kind of workplace flexibility. 151 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:23,220 So I think the companies or the employers that are smart, are 152 00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:26,520 saying well, we should really look at our well being offerings 153 00:09:26,550 --> 00:09:30,450 or employee benefits, how well our managers manage talent, how 154 00:09:30,450 --> 00:09:34,770 well we train employees to keep their skills sharp. I think I'd 155 00:09:34,770 --> 00:09:38,520 be a little concerned as an employer and make sure that I am 156 00:09:38,550 --> 00:09:42,210 looking at the future and I think for employees use this 157 00:09:42,210 --> 00:09:45,690 moment of leverage and opportunity to put yourself in a 158 00:09:45,690 --> 00:09:48,720 good position and take advantage of the opportunities that are 159 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:49,200 out there. 160 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:54,430 Eveline Oehrlich: Mm hmm. Yeah, so we see some changes in of 161 00:09:54,430 --> 00:09:58,330 course, the work hours right? Friday's off. We're to DevOps 162 00:09:58,330 --> 00:10:02,050 Institute have actually implemented that for our team to 163 00:10:02,050 --> 00:10:05,350 have a Friday, summer day, that means that's the day where we 164 00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:09,940 start learning, doing some training to ourselves or having 165 00:10:09,940 --> 00:10:13,960 some special projects. I hear a whole bunch of new things. I 166 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,200 keep saying to some of my enterprise clients that just 167 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,720 putting up a workout place in the basement or having a beer 168 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,090 fountain in the developer community. That's kind of a 169 00:10:25,090 --> 00:10:29,260 popular thing, having the, you know, 12 different liquors, or 170 00:10:29,260 --> 00:10:31,990 whatever it is to your developers or others is not 171 00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:34,780 going to cut it, you have to dig a little bit deeper and think a 172 00:10:34,780 --> 00:10:39,130 little bit deeper. So yeah, interesting. Most we'll see how 173 00:10:39,130 --> 00:10:44,260 that does. I want to shift our thinking a little bit, 174 00:10:44,290 --> 00:10:47,830 particularly in light of your book, "Recalculating". I have 175 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:51,940 ordered it, it's not here yet. But I do know that you have 176 00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:55,060 written and talked a lot because I listen to some of your 177 00:10:55,660 --> 00:11:00,940 speeches. They are around the mindset. And I am actually a big 178 00:11:00,940 --> 00:11:05,740 fan of Dr. Carol Dweck, who I've tried to get onto the show, 179 00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:09,310 hopefully one day she will say yes, I'll keep working on her. 180 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,950 Tell me about this mindset. And what what can we what have we 181 00:11:14,950 --> 00:11:18,580 learned during the pandemic? In terms of our mindset? 182 00:11:19,270 --> 00:11:22,570 Lindsey Pollak: I love this topic. So I wrote recalculating 183 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,820 because of the pandemic, I lost almost all of my speaking 184 00:11:27,820 --> 00:11:31,750 business at the beginning of COVID. And I've had to pivot 185 00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:35,560 very quickly. And so I started researching how people were 186 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:39,910 responding as employees or business owners like I am to the 187 00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:43,450 pandemic. And the metaphor that I used was recalculating, like 188 00:11:43,450 --> 00:11:47,590 when your GPS or your Sat Nav takes you down a certain road 189 00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:51,130 and you make a wrong turn or what have you. And you have to 190 00:11:51,130 --> 00:11:54,820 find a different path. And so when I think about people 191 00:11:54,820 --> 00:11:58,420 navigating through any environment, but particularly 192 00:11:58,420 --> 00:12:02,740 challenging times, I think about how they make choices. And what 193 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:06,580 struck me as I was interviewing people, is that you could have 194 00:12:06,580 --> 00:12:10,630 two individuals in the same situation, for example, somebody 195 00:12:10,630 --> 00:12:14,080 who had been unemployed for a long period of time, and one of 196 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,200 the people would say, I'm never going to find a job, nobody's 197 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,020 going to hire me because I've been unemployed. And the other 198 00:12:20,020 --> 00:12:23,470 person in the same situation would say, everybody's gonna 199 00:12:23,470 --> 00:12:25,900 want to hire me, I'm so refreshed. I've been out of work 200 00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:28,240 for a while I can start, you know, hit the ground running. 201 00:12:28,630 --> 00:12:32,740 And that's where I decided to start the book with a chapter on 202 00:12:32,770 --> 00:12:36,880 mindset. And I think those two sides are very good examples of 203 00:12:37,060 --> 00:12:41,080 what Carol Dweck refers to as a growth mindset or a fixed 204 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,350 mindset. A fixed mindset says, This is what it is, it's never 205 00:12:44,350 --> 00:12:47,320 going to change. So for example, I don't have a good singing 206 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,920 voice, or nobody's going to hire somebody who's unemployed. And a 207 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,930 growth mindset, all you have to do to adopt one is to add the 208 00:12:55,930 --> 00:12:59,470 word yet to the end of those sentences. So nobody's going to 209 00:12:59,470 --> 00:13:02,380 hire somebody's unemployed yet, well, I haven't found a way that 210 00:13:02,380 --> 00:13:04,930 they're going to do it, or I don't have a good singing voice 211 00:13:04,930 --> 00:13:07,870 yet. I'm sure if I took some classes and practiced, I could 212 00:13:07,870 --> 00:13:11,590 get better. And what I found is the people who were willing to 213 00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:16,180 find different paths, try different strategies, use their 214 00:13:16,180 --> 00:13:19,240 network, get some extra training, who had that growth 215 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,780 mindset that their situation could change, even during COVID, 216 00:13:22,930 --> 00:13:26,650 which was such a challenging time, that made all the 217 00:13:26,650 --> 00:13:29,260 difference. So I really think while a lot of people are 218 00:13:29,260 --> 00:13:33,250 experiencing burnout, and mental health challenges that often 219 00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:37,300 need professional help, we also sometimes do ourselves a 220 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:40,900 disservice when we sit in a negative mindset. And assume 221 00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:44,110 that things can't change when actually very, very, very small 222 00:13:44,110 --> 00:13:49,000 steps can make a big difference in finding a job or even when 223 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,850 we're in a job making the changes that we want to see for 224 00:13:51,850 --> 00:13:54,280 our well being or for our career development. 225 00:13:56,890 --> 00:13:59,350 Ad: Are you looking to get DevOps certified? Demonstrate 226 00:13:59,350 --> 00:14:01,360 your DevOps knowledge and advance your career with a 227 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,360 certification from DevOps Institute? get certified in 228 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,140 DevOps leader, SRE or dev SEC ops, just to name a few. Learn 229 00:14:08,140 --> 00:14:11,890 anywhere, anytime. The choice is yours. Choose get certified 230 00:14:11,890 --> 00:14:15,340 through our vast partner network self study programs, or our new 231 00:14:15,340 --> 00:14:18,340 skill of elearning videos. The exams are developed in 232 00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:20,860 collaboration with industry thought leaders and subject 233 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:23,890 matter experts in the DevOps space. Learn more at DevOps 234 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:25,810 institute.com/certifications. 235 00:14:30,070 --> 00:14:33,160 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, so in our field in it, there is of 236 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,600 course, a lot of topics around automation, right? We NIT 237 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,060 doesn't matter if we're an IT operations, if we're a site 238 00:14:40,060 --> 00:14:45,700 reliability engineer, or if we are developer, we are wanting to 239 00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:51,430 do an automate ourselves, to some extent out of a job and for 240 00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:55,420 some individuals. That's a significant challenge in my 241 00:14:55,420 --> 00:15:00,400 research, over the years, in large and with Corporation, 242 00:15:00,730 --> 00:15:04,750 there's always this one or multiple people who are saying, 243 00:15:04,810 --> 00:15:10,000 I'm just going to do it the old way. I'm not going to be out of 244 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,860 a job, I'm not going to be automated away. And, and that's, 245 00:15:14,860 --> 00:15:18,280 I think the biggest challenge our community has, to some 246 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,970 extent because there's this fear, right? What advice could 247 00:15:21,970 --> 00:15:25,330 you give those folks were saying, Hey, I'm going to do my 248 00:15:25,330 --> 00:15:29,080 process the way I've done it always, and I'm not going to be 249 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,560 replaced by a machine even so that individual could do 250 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,530 something much more valuable, and maybe even something more 251 00:15:35,530 --> 00:15:39,760 interesting. They still will not be able to change the mindset. 252 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,910 How could these folks think differently? What would you say? 253 00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:46,020 Lindsey Pollak: That's such a good example in I think of a 254 00:15:46,020 --> 00:15:48,840 parallel in journalism, you know, that so many journalism 255 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,050 jobs have been lost, but many people have survived and thrived 256 00:15:52,050 --> 00:15:56,040 by pivoting their skill set to something else? So I think it's 257 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,020 a classic growth mindset exercise, which is, where are 258 00:16:01,050 --> 00:16:06,300 the opportunities? What do we know is growing? What does work 259 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:10,980 what people have found success despite automation, and rather 260 00:16:10,980 --> 00:16:14,910 than focusing on what is not going in your favor, what is not 261 00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:19,440 helpful to your career, look for the opportunities, and I'll give 262 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,480 you a framework to think about one of my favorite frameworks 263 00:16:24,510 --> 00:16:28,560 for generational thinking is rather than doing things the old 264 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,580 generation way, or the new generation way, I like the word 265 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:36,420 perennial, which was a term coined by a technology 266 00:16:36,450 --> 00:16:39,570 entrepreneur named Jean appel. And a perennial is someone who 267 00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:42,930 knows their history, they know the way things have been done. 268 00:16:42,930 --> 00:16:46,530 So they have that grounding that a lot of IT professionals have. 269 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,450 And they keep up with the times. So it doesn't mean you erase 270 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,810 everything that made you good at your job in the past, it means 271 00:16:54,810 --> 00:16:58,830 that you use that foundation that you continually build on 272 00:16:58,830 --> 00:17:02,310 it. So I think of some architects I worked with, who 273 00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:05,880 had learned how to design with a paper and pencil. And then in 274 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,690 the 1980s, CAD technology came along. And so they learned how 275 00:17:09,690 --> 00:17:13,950 to design in CAD, but they know how to do both. And they see 276 00:17:13,950 --> 00:17:18,060 value in both. So when they see a new technology coming along, 277 00:17:18,090 --> 00:17:20,370 they don't say I'm a dinosaur, I'm never going to learn it. 278 00:17:20,370 --> 00:17:23,460 They say, Oh, great, here's another tool to add to my 279 00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:27,330 toolkit. So I think it's really about being willing to change 280 00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:31,170 with the times and putting yourself in a mindset of saying, 281 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,620 okay, things may be different, but I'm going to seek out the 282 00:17:34,650 --> 00:17:39,390 opportunity. And I think sometimes older people get more 283 00:17:39,420 --> 00:17:41,580 worried that they're not going to be able to keep up with the 284 00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:44,340 times when I think we're all perfectly capable of it. We just 285 00:17:44,340 --> 00:17:48,900 have to make a choice to adapt with those times and not decide 286 00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:51,630 that we have been overrun. Does that make sense? 287 00:17:51,660 --> 00:17:53,370 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, makes perfect sense. And I have 288 00:17:53,370 --> 00:17:55,830 actually a follow up question, because I know you've done some 289 00:17:55,830 --> 00:18:02,610 research in the millennials as well. What I also see in the, in 290 00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:06,480 this space is that of course we have folks like myself, I am you 291 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,830 know, a baby boomer, I've been in it, I know how to do certain 292 00:18:10,830 --> 00:18:14,670 things. But there's new folks coming in. They have great 293 00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:18,750 capabilities. They, for example, can manage five different 294 00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:22,620 screens and write code on all of those together. I can just 295 00:18:22,620 --> 00:18:27,150 follow one. And I may be content switching maybe in two things, 296 00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:30,870 but they're just incredible. And I can deal with it. Because 297 00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:34,290 maybe I don't know, maybe I'm having a growth mindset or 298 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,440 because of my personality. I'm not sure. But there's a lot of 299 00:18:37,530 --> 00:18:40,680 folks that I meet in IT organizations who are threatened 300 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,370 by millennials, not just because they have technical skills or 301 00:18:44,370 --> 00:18:48,090 abilities, but they're just different. What advice would you 302 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:51,180 give those folks because I know we have people, mainframe folks, 303 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:54,450 we still need them. Some of the largest financial institutions, 304 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,690 if we turn the mainframe off, and we go to cloud, it's not 305 00:18:57,690 --> 00:19:00,900 working, we cannot we cannot get our money. So what what advice 306 00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:04,110 would you give somebody like, like a baby boomer, like myself 307 00:19:04,110 --> 00:19:06,270 or even older? How to deal with that? 308 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,430 Lindsey Pollak: Yeah, I see this all the time. And I think 309 00:19:08,430 --> 00:19:12,210 particularly in technology where things are so stark and move so 310 00:19:12,210 --> 00:19:16,920 fast. I think that one way to reframe it is rather than saying 311 00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:20,070 they're faster, or they're better, is to say that they're 312 00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:22,530 from a different culture. So just as you're in Germany, and 313 00:19:22,530 --> 00:19:25,710 I'm in the United States, if I came to Germany, I think I'm an 314 00:19:25,710 --> 00:19:28,680 expert on my topic, but I would inherently understand that I 315 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,460 would probably have to adapt a bit to the German culture. And 316 00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:35,280 so it's not good or bad, right or wrong, better or worse. It's 317 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,790 just a different culture. And so if you see it that you come from 318 00:19:38,790 --> 00:19:42,810 the culture of a baby boomer IT background, and the young people 319 00:19:42,810 --> 00:19:45,780 you're working with or in a millennial or a Gen Z it 320 00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:49,620 culture, then you both have things to offer. And so if you 321 00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:53,550 come at it from that level playing field, a lot of younger 322 00:19:53,550 --> 00:19:57,720 people would love to hear how you learn to code 10 or 20 years 323 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,630 ago, they would love to hear about your purse. spective that 324 00:20:00,660 --> 00:20:04,620 the architect who learned to design a pencil, he said, a lot 325 00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:07,830 of young people say, show me how to do that. I've never done it 326 00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:10,230 that way. That's really interesting. I can learn from 327 00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:14,130 that. And so I think that the magic happens when we just spend 328 00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:18,600 time together and have curiosity, rather than judgment. 329 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,350 So I love to talk to people who did business in the 80s or 90s, 330 00:20:22,350 --> 00:20:24,960 you know, pre email, pre technology, you know, how did 331 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,870 you do sales? What did you do? What are the tricks that you 332 00:20:27,870 --> 00:20:31,620 used, and there's a lot of value in that in some of the tools 333 00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:33,930 that other generations haven't use. So I think if you see it as 334 00:20:33,930 --> 00:20:36,960 a cultural difference, rather than a judgment call, and you 335 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,460 bring your natural curiosity, I often find younger people think 336 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:44,580 that older employees are resistant to that conversation. 337 00:20:44,730 --> 00:20:46,740 And the older employees think the younger people are 338 00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:49,200 resistant, and when they actually get together, they have 339 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,190 a lot to talk about. 340 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,570 Eveline Oehrlich: I love how you face that the magic happened. 341 00:20:54,050 --> 00:20:57,170 And actually, has happened to me at the DevOps Institute, just 342 00:20:57,170 --> 00:21:01,850 recently, so. And we actually learned from each other. And I 343 00:21:01,850 --> 00:21:06,950 think that made us both a better individual, and it has tightened 344 00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:10,340 us or connected us towards a better team. I love the term the 345 00:21:10,340 --> 00:21:13,790 magic happens. All right. Fantastic. I have another 346 00:21:13,790 --> 00:21:19,880 question. Because of we also do assessments at the DevOps 347 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,760 Institute, we have an assessment, many enterprises do 348 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,810 assessments, but not as much about the skills as you have 349 00:21:26,810 --> 00:21:29,870 written and you have an assessment model, but we assess 350 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,860 the capabilities around processes. How fit are you 351 00:21:33,860 --> 00:21:37,730 around technology, but I'm really want to dig into your 352 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:41,990 example. In your book, you said you had that you have a 353 00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:48,260 capability to assess skills, how and what would you suggest? How 354 00:21:48,260 --> 00:21:51,860 was it? Because I always thought I cannot? How can I assess my 355 00:21:51,860 --> 00:21:56,060 skills? Because if you would ask me, am I my human skills? Right? 356 00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:00,020 Am I a great collaborator? Am I a great communicator? For Yeah, 357 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,790 I think I am. Am I empathetic? Yeah, I think I am. So I'm 358 00:22:04,790 --> 00:22:07,700 sometimes thinking, how can I assess my skills? Yes, I can 359 00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:11,510 say, I'm not really good at cloud, or I'm not really good at 360 00:22:11,510 --> 00:22:13,970 security. Because I'm not a security expert. I'm an 361 00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:17,960 operations person. But assessing skills tell us a little bit more 362 00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:20,600 on that topic, because that really intrigued me. And I know, 363 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,740 our listeners are curious, because we just did a upskilling 364 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,730 at 2022 research, and we'll talk a lot in that research, we talk 365 00:22:28,730 --> 00:22:30,650 a lot about different skills. 366 00:22:31,230 --> 00:22:34,080 Lindsey Pollak: So I like to differentiate between skills 367 00:22:34,110 --> 00:22:38,820 that you can learn hard skills, like written communication, like 368 00:22:38,820 --> 00:22:43,170 particular coding languages, and then the word strength, which is 369 00:22:43,170 --> 00:22:45,750 the company Captain entity that I'm an ambassador for. And the 370 00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:48,540 difference is a skill is something you do that you're 371 00:22:48,540 --> 00:22:52,980 good at doing. But a strength is something that you're good at 372 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:58,740 doing. And it energizes you. So you could be very, very good at 373 00:22:58,770 --> 00:23:02,130 filing papers alphabetically, but it doesn't excite you. 374 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,950 Right, it doesn't interest you. So the difference with a 375 00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:09,360 strength is that it excites you, it energizes you. So it's 376 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,720 something that you want to do. And what's really interesting 377 00:23:12,750 --> 00:23:15,150 about a lot of strengths, and I think the difference between a 378 00:23:15,150 --> 00:23:18,210 strength and a skill is there a lot of people, for instance, who 379 00:23:18,210 --> 00:23:21,240 are really good at math in school, and so they became an 380 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,660 accountant. And they don't really like it, they're good at 381 00:23:24,660 --> 00:23:27,390 it, but they don't like it. And I'm sure that's true with a lot 382 00:23:27,390 --> 00:23:30,750 of technology jobs, you had an aptitude for it. So you did it. 383 00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:34,530 But if it doesn't energize you, it's not a really great career 384 00:23:34,530 --> 00:23:38,340 choice. So the magic is finding the things that you're good at, 385 00:23:38,370 --> 00:23:42,240 and you enjoy. And what's very, very interesting to me, is a lot 386 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,660 of times, we actually do a terrible job of knowing our 387 00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:48,810 strengths. Because when something comes easily to us, 388 00:23:49,050 --> 00:23:52,830 and it doesn't feel hard to learn, we don't think that it's 389 00:23:52,830 --> 00:23:55,230 a particular strength, because we think though, everybody must 390 00:23:55,230 --> 00:23:58,530 be good at that, right? So if math comes really easily to you, 391 00:23:58,530 --> 00:24:01,710 or coding comes easily to you, or empathy comes really easy, 392 00:24:01,770 --> 00:24:04,770 easily to you, you might not value it, because you're just 393 00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:08,310 don't think it's a big deal, that you're good at it. And so 394 00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:11,280 when you assess your strengths, and I can be happy to provide 395 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,750 you with a link in, in your show notes to take a simple strengths 396 00:24:15,780 --> 00:24:19,530 profile finder, there are things for instance, I was speaking to 397 00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:24,030 an academic, a PhD professor, and he said, he's really burned 398 00:24:24,030 --> 00:24:28,230 out on writing. He's very good at it. But it doesn't energize 399 00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:31,860 him anymore. And so he doesn't want to do it. It also tells you 400 00:24:31,860 --> 00:24:34,470 what are what's called your unrealized strengths, which are 401 00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:37,230 those things that you're good at, but you don't even realize 402 00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:41,310 about yourself. And sometimes that's really helpful for people 403 00:24:41,310 --> 00:24:44,820 who are reskilling or who are looking to change careers 404 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:46,800 because again, it's something that you've been really, really 405 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,840 good at. Maybe you love introducing people to each 406 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,020 other. Maybe you're very social, as you said, maybe you're very 407 00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:55,110 empathetic. And so maybe you've been coding, but you'd actually 408 00:24:55,110 --> 00:24:57,780 be really good at managing other people to code because you're 409 00:24:57,780 --> 00:25:01,020 very empathetic and a good teacher. So I kept filling his 410 00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:03,720 strengths profile and happy to share that link. But I think 411 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,820 that magic again, is the skill that you actually enjoy doing. 412 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,070 Eveline Oehrlich: Hmm. That relates to the great job then 413 00:25:13,070 --> 00:25:16,850 right? So what is that great job, is the great job, the place 414 00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:21,830 where I have energy? My husband, sometimes I have to tell you 415 00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:25,670 this, my husband sometimes says he cannot. He's in construction. 416 00:25:25,670 --> 00:25:29,270 He does all kinds of things, right? And on Sunday night, he's 417 00:25:29,270 --> 00:25:32,210 like, I cannot wait till Monday. I'm like, Oh, wow, that's really 418 00:25:32,210 --> 00:25:35,660 exciting. I'm just saying way I love what I do. I'm an analyst, 419 00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:39,230 I get to do research, I get to write, I get to speak to very, 420 00:25:39,230 --> 00:25:43,010 very good and fantastic people like you. So I love my job. And 421 00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:46,130 I would say I have a great job. But there's a lot of others who 422 00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:48,620 don't, because they don't have that excitement. So that is the 423 00:25:48,620 --> 00:25:52,220 great job. One part of the great job is that excitement, I know 424 00:25:52,220 --> 00:25:55,910 what I'm good at. And I can thrive in that. And I learn what 425 00:25:55,910 --> 00:25:58,310 else goes along with the great job, because I know you talked 426 00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:59,210 about that as well. 427 00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:01,980 Lindsey Pollak: I think that's a really good description of it. 428 00:26:01,980 --> 00:26:05,730 And look, we can be you know, happy in our jobs, but not every 429 00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:08,070 minute. And every task that we have to do, I don't want people 430 00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:10,560 to think that work should be bliss that you know, and if not, 431 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,620 you're miserable. I think it's a combination of where you feel 432 00:26:13,620 --> 00:26:16,740 fulfilled. And I actually use the word energy, instead of 433 00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:19,590 excitement. It's not like you're giggling every second, but you 434 00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:22,500 really feel energized by it, you feel like you're making a 435 00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:25,500 difference. You feel like your work has purpose. You're not 436 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:29,130 slogging through the day. But I think the environment in which 437 00:26:29,130 --> 00:26:32,550 you do it is equally important. And I think this is a big change 438 00:26:32,580 --> 00:26:36,240 in the workplace, which is do my values align with the 439 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,860 organization that I'm working with? So do I feel that the work 440 00:26:40,860 --> 00:26:44,370 that we're doing and a big picture, there's my job, but 441 00:26:44,370 --> 00:26:47,880 then the bigger organization, I think millennials and Gen Z's 442 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,600 have put a lot of energy and attention into making sure that 443 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,960 their values align with the organization they work for. And 444 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,900 I think that's part of the great resignation that you brought up, 445 00:26:58,050 --> 00:27:00,720 is during COVID, people had a lot of time to think about what 446 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,540 they really wanted in life. And if the organization they were 447 00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:07,560 working for was at odds with what they wanted from their own 448 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,280 values, I think a lot of people made a change, not necessarily 449 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,550 always because of the actual job, but sometimes for the the 450 00:27:14,550 --> 00:27:16,620 broader picture of the organization. 451 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,600 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, absolutely. I am hoping my 452 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,320 daughters are listening into this at some point to get them 453 00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:27,640 excited about or energized. I love that word. You have given 454 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,630 us some great language. Well, this has been fantastic. where 455 00:27:31,630 --> 00:27:35,830 can folks go to learn more about your work? Of course, the books 456 00:27:35,830 --> 00:27:39,310 we read about the books, but is there a place you would tell our 457 00:27:39,310 --> 00:27:41,770 listeners to go and say, Hey, check this out? 458 00:27:42,430 --> 00:27:45,580 Lindsey Pollak: Yes, I'm very active on LinkedIn. So feel free 459 00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:49,000 to connect with me there at my name, Lindsey Pollak. I also 460 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,670 have a website, Lindsaypollack.com. And under 461 00:27:51,670 --> 00:27:55,420 the tab that says Recalculating, that's where you can find that 462 00:27:55,420 --> 00:27:57,820 free Strengths Assessment if you're interested. 463 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:00,820 Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic. I have one more surprise question 464 00:28:00,820 --> 00:28:03,580 for you. What's your favorite thing to do on the weekend? 465 00:28:03,820 --> 00:28:05,410 Lindsey Pollak: Oh my, favorite thing to do on the weekend. You 466 00:28:05,410 --> 00:28:10,210 mentioned the ice cream. The ice cream example is I live in New 467 00:28:10,210 --> 00:28:12,340 York City and there are a lot of ice cream trucks. So my daughter 468 00:28:12,340 --> 00:28:15,370 and I go out and I love vanilla ice cream with rainbow 469 00:28:15,370 --> 00:28:18,850 sprinkles. So taking my daughter for an ice cream cone on a sunny 470 00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:21,130 weekend is my favorite activity. 471 00:28:21,580 --> 00:28:23,950 Eveline Oehrlich: That sounds fantastic. That's what I might 472 00:28:23,950 --> 00:28:28,510 do this weekend too. We have 33 Celsius here in Germany, so 473 00:28:28,510 --> 00:28:31,870 now's not the time to visit. But if you ever come over here, I'll 474 00:28:31,870 --> 00:28:34,120 take you for ice cream. We've got some great Italian ice 475 00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:37,360 cream. Lindsey, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for 476 00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:41,440 your time. Enjoy the weekend. Enjoy the ice cream and 477 00:28:41,620 --> 00:28:44,830 everybody else. Thanks for listening in. Have a great day. 478 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:45,670 Cheers. 479 00:28:47,550 --> 00:28:49,650 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 480 00:28:49,650 --> 00:28:53,190 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 481 00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:56,580 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 482 00:28:56,580 --> 00:29:00,030 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 483 00:29:00,330 --> 00:29:01,080 You belong