1 00:00:02,940 --> 00:00:05,820 Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a 2 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:09,450 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,800 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework. 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,433 Eveline Oehrlich: This is the Humans of DevOps Podcast, and 5 00:00:20,503 --> 00:00:24,497 I'm your host Eveline Oehrlich. I set out to ask the most 6 00:00:24,568 --> 00:00:28,632 interesting people in the world of DevOps, a couple of key 7 00:00:28,702 --> 00:00:33,117 questions around DevOps, today and in the future. But before we 8 00:00:33,187 --> 00:00:37,182 go there, and for those of you who know me as an industry 9 00:00:37,252 --> 00:00:41,107 analyst, here are some data points in a 2021 Accelerate 10 00:00:41,177 --> 00:00:45,311 State of DevOps. It shows that for the first time, high and 11 00:00:45,381 --> 00:00:49,516 elite performers make up two thirds of respondents compared 12 00:00:49,586 --> 00:00:53,861 to 2019 report where low and medium performers made up 56% of 13 00:00:53,931 --> 00:00:58,136 respondents in 2022, according to our research at the DevOps 14 00:00:58,206 --> 00:01:02,201 Institute, 58% have actually adopted DevOps in that year. 15 00:01:02,271 --> 00:01:06,546 From a vertical perspective, 73% of healthcare companies have 16 00:01:06,616 --> 00:01:10,610 adopted DevOps as of 2021. That's from Red Gate software. 17 00:01:10,681 --> 00:01:14,745 451, Alliance said that 44% of respondents of their survey 18 00:01:14,815 --> 00:01:18,880 indicated that they have either indicated or initiated the 19 00:01:18,950 --> 00:01:23,295 adoption of DevOps practices at their organization as a result 20 00:01:23,365 --> 00:01:27,640 of the COVID 19 outbreak. And in June 2022 Charles Betz noted 21 00:01:27,710 --> 00:01:31,424 that implementing DevOps consistently reduces time to 22 00:01:31,494 --> 00:01:35,419 market increases enterprise agility and makes businesses 23 00:01:35,489 --> 00:01:39,694 more resilient. And that high performers in these topics are 24 00:01:39,764 --> 00:01:43,759 much further along in the DevOps journey, compared to the 25 00:01:43,829 --> 00:01:47,963 laggards. Not the bottom line, the adoption of DevOps keeps 26 00:01:48,033 --> 00:01:52,168 rising. And the term DevOps means many things. And it's one 27 00:01:52,238 --> 00:01:56,303 of our guests, which you can hear later mentions. The term 28 00:01:56,373 --> 00:02:00,648 DevOps is actually used as an brela term today. Welcome again 29 00:02:00,718 --> 00:02:05,063 to the DevOps human podcast. My guests this week are a variety 30 00:02:05,133 --> 00:02:09,478 of thought leaders within the topic of DevOps. Let me tell you 31 00:02:09,548 --> 00:02:13,543 who is on here. First, we're joined by Jayne Grohl CEO of 32 00:02:13,613 --> 00:02:17,397 DevOps Institute, who has influenced and shaped DevOps 33 00:02:17,467 --> 00:02:21,672 with a team and the work of the DevOps Institute itself. I'm 34 00:02:21,742 --> 00:02:25,947 very fortunate to have known Jayne for many years, and under 35 00:02:26,017 --> 00:02:30,292 her leadership, DevOps Institute has become a global learning 36 00:02:30,362 --> 00:02:34,777 community focused exclusively on all things DevOps. Her mission 37 00:02:34,847 --> 00:02:39,122 and data for team, including myself, is to empower the people 38 00:02:39,192 --> 00:02:43,467 who power it. This includes not only improving typical skills 39 00:02:43,537 --> 00:02:47,111 across best practices, technologies, methodologies, 40 00:02:47,181 --> 00:02:51,596 processes, functional knowledge and more but also emphasizes to 41 00:02:51,667 --> 00:02:55,801 human aspects and skills. It is with great pleasure to also 42 00:02:55,871 --> 00:02:59,936 welcome Charles Betz, Vice President and research director 43 00:03:00,006 --> 00:03:04,351 at Forrester Research. Charlie and I met a long time ago and I 44 00:03:04,421 --> 00:03:08,626 was fortunate to work with him at Forrester Research. There, 45 00:03:08,696 --> 00:03:13,181 Charlie leads forces Enterprise Architecture priority, providing 46 00:03:13,251 --> 00:03:17,456 guidance to Enterprise Architect professionals worldwide, on 47 00:03:17,526 --> 00:03:21,801 evolving relevant modern and valuable architectural practice. 48 00:03:21,871 --> 00:03:25,656 He is deeply engaged in researching the transformation 49 00:03:25,726 --> 00:03:29,931 of the it operating model, in particular the impact of agile 50 00:03:30,001 --> 00:03:34,486 DevOps and product thinking. He has previously led forces DevOps 51 00:03:34,556 --> 00:03:38,200 and enterprise service management coverage. Prior to 52 00:03:38,270 --> 00:03:42,545 joining Forrester Charlie was the chief architect at att AT&T 53 00:03:42,615 --> 00:03:46,890 signature client group where he was responsible for technical 54 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,025 strategy with Fortune 100 clients. Also excited to welcome 55 00:03:51,095 --> 00:03:55,019 Helen Beal. She is an I would bet you the most connected 56 00:03:55,089 --> 00:03:59,014 person within this industry. Helen is a DevOps coach and 57 00:03:59,084 --> 00:04:03,289 strategic advisor. She is co chair of the Oasis value stream 58 00:04:03,359 --> 00:04:07,494 management interoperability technical comedy committee, and 59 00:04:07,564 --> 00:04:11,628 chief ambassador at the DevOps Institute, where I have the 60 00:04:11,699 --> 00:04:16,184 pleasure to work with her quite a bit. She hosts the bright talk 61 00:04:16,254 --> 00:04:20,669 day to day DevOps webinar series ism and is an info cute DevOps 62 00:04:20,739 --> 00:04:24,874 editor. She is listed in tech beacons, DevOps top 100 lists 63 00:04:24,944 --> 00:04:29,008 and one top DevOps evangelist in 2020. In the DevOps dozen 64 00:04:29,078 --> 00:04:33,634 awards, outside of DevOps, she's ecologist and novelist. And last 65 00:04:33,704 --> 00:04:38,049 but not least, Mark Hornbeek. A DevOps expert, Mark is CEO and 66 00:04:38,119 --> 00:04:41,973 Principal Consultant at engineering, DevOps consulting, 67 00:04:42,043 --> 00:04:46,108 and the author of the book engineering DevOps. He has been 68 00:04:46,178 --> 00:04:49,962 advising and consulting organizations around the globe 69 00:04:50,033 --> 00:04:54,167 on different aspects of DevOps chain, Charlie, Helen, Mark, 70 00:04:54,237 --> 00:04:58,582 welcome, and thank you so much. for joining me today on humans 71 00:04:58,652 --> 00:05:02,717 of DevOps podcast. With me now is Jane Grohl CEO of DevOps 72 00:05:02,787 --> 00:05:07,132 Institute. Jane has influenced and shaped DevOps with her team 73 00:05:07,202 --> 00:05:11,617 at DevOps Institute. I am very fortunate to know Jayne for many 74 00:05:11,687 --> 00:05:16,173 years, and under her leadership, the DevOps Institute has become 75 00:05:16,243 --> 00:05:20,027 a global learning community focused exclusively on all 76 00:05:20,097 --> 00:05:24,022 things DevOps. It's been a pleasure working with and for 77 00:05:24,092 --> 00:05:28,086 her over these years as well. Her mission and that of the 78 00:05:28,156 --> 00:05:32,361 DevOps institute is to empower the people who power it. This 79 00:05:32,431 --> 00:05:36,216 includes not only improving typical skills across best 80 00:05:36,286 --> 00:05:40,000 practices, technologies, methodologies, processes and 81 00:05:40,070 --> 00:05:44,485 functional knowledge, but also emphasizes the human aspects and 82 00:05:44,555 --> 00:05:48,970 skills essential for the role in DevOps. As we know culture and 83 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,315 skills are a huge challenge for the above adoption of DevOps, 84 00:05:53,385 --> 00:05:57,800 and many other related topics. The DevOps Institute has a large 85 00:05:57,870 --> 00:06:01,655 professional network respected certification programs, 86 00:06:01,725 --> 00:06:06,140 excellent virtual and in person events, partners, and it is the 87 00:06:06,210 --> 00:06:10,555 place to go for IT professionals across all roles to shape and 88 00:06:10,625 --> 00:06:14,410 manage the future of it. It Hello, Jayne, how are you? 89 00:06:14,740 --> 00:06:17,350 Jayne Groll: Hello, Eveline. So nice to be here. Thank you for 90 00:06:17,350 --> 00:06:17,950 having me. 91 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,880 Eveline Oehrlich: Yes, thanks for taking time out. From your 92 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,430 busy schedule, I know your schedule is always busy, because 93 00:06:23,430 --> 00:06:29,130 it's always really difficult to get a date with you. So I think 94 00:06:29,610 --> 00:06:33,750 there is no better person to start out this topic on DevOps 95 00:06:33,750 --> 00:06:37,950 now and in the future than with us as CEO. So my first question 96 00:06:37,950 --> 00:06:42,180 to you, Jane is what is DevOps today in 2022? If you kind of 97 00:06:42,180 --> 00:06:45,300 step back, and think about where are we today? 98 00:06:46,590 --> 00:06:48,540 Jayne Groll: So you know, it's very interesting, because I've 99 00:06:48,540 --> 00:06:52,440 had the privilege of kind of watching DevOps grow up, I'm not 100 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:57,090 one of the original founders or part of the original team. But I 101 00:06:57,090 --> 00:07:01,590 did get to see DevOps in 2012, when it still was in its very, 102 00:07:01,590 --> 00:07:06,600 very early stages, and was really mostly with technology 103 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,680 companies. And if the time there were really kind of two spirits 104 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,460 to DevOps, one was the three ways from the Phoenix Project. 105 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:17,910 And of course, I think that helped shape a lot of the 106 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,810 culture and the principles around DevOps. And then the 107 00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:25,260 other was continuous integration and continuous delivery. And 108 00:07:25,260 --> 00:07:29,490 everybody was looking at how do we build these pipelines so that 109 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,180 we can start integrating using more agile practices, 110 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:36,810 integrating code that came out of the agile teams, and then 111 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:40,530 downstream trying to expedite some of the activities that 112 00:07:40,530 --> 00:07:44,670 happen downstream, before deployment into production. And 113 00:07:44,670 --> 00:07:49,710 now fast forward, what 10 years for me, and you see, the DevOps 114 00:07:49,710 --> 00:07:54,240 has become an umbrella or recipe that is grafted a lot of other 115 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,970 practices. So certainly CI CD is is still at the heart of of 116 00:07:59,970 --> 00:08:03,120 DevOps, you know, building the pipelines optimizing open 117 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,400 source, really looking at how do we accelerate or shift left a 118 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:13,050 lot of the activities that happen from development into up 119 00:08:13,050 --> 00:08:16,290 to deployment. But now we've got other practices like Site 120 00:08:16,290 --> 00:08:20,370 Reliability Engineering, which is in part of DevOps, right, but 121 00:08:20,370 --> 00:08:24,570 got grafted into it as kind of the third piece of the continuum 122 00:08:24,570 --> 00:08:29,430 agile DevOps, and now operations in the form of sre. And then we 123 00:08:29,430 --> 00:08:32,670 look at other practices that grew up organically, like chaos 124 00:08:32,670 --> 00:08:36,600 engineering, like observability, right, that were in power, they 125 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,050 weren't written in the Phoenix Project, they weren't part of 126 00:08:40,050 --> 00:08:44,130 kind of the original spirit of DevOps. But DevOps then kind of 127 00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:48,120 became this umbrella of practices and principles, that 128 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,820 welcomed other practices into the fold, so that the entire 129 00:08:53,820 --> 00:08:57,720 supply chain, the software delivery lifecycle became faster 130 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,840 and more frequent, higher quality, and that people 131 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,220 individuals started to really innovate in terms of how they 132 00:09:05,220 --> 00:09:08,400 can improve that, that experience for themselves and 133 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,940 for the consumers of their, their product. So you know, from 134 00:09:11,940 --> 00:09:16,950 the early days CI CD and now you know, there's a wealth of other 135 00:09:16,950 --> 00:09:19,830 practices that weren't written in a book, they didn't, you 136 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:22,200 know, they weren't part of a body of knowledge. They just 137 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,190 sort of happened. And, and, and now we could call them DevOps, 138 00:09:26,190 --> 00:09:28,860 if you want to, right, we could call it development and 139 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:33,630 operations, and really kind of look at this end to end value 140 00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:40,050 stream. Instead of just kind of pigeon holing it into a set of 141 00:09:40,050 --> 00:09:42,480 practice. It's really been fantastic to watch. 142 00:09:43,050 --> 00:09:46,500 Eveline Oehrlich: Beautiful I love your analogy of or the word 143 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:50,460 you said the umbrella, never become an umbrella. That is a 144 00:09:50,460 --> 00:09:54,420 great term and I always love your energy on this topic. I can 145 00:09:54,420 --> 00:09:58,860 feel it when you when you speak about it. So given what you 146 00:09:58,860 --> 00:10:02,400 said, Let's go look into the crystal ball. If we all we all 147 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,200 have one, right? Tell me what you're thinking in where DevOps 148 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,070 will be in the future crystal balls, let's say two years, 149 00:10:11,070 --> 00:10:14,130 maybe three years, because five years, I think it's a little too 150 00:10:14,130 --> 00:10:16,860 far away, but maybe two to three years from now, where do you 151 00:10:16,860 --> 00:10:18,030 think DevOps will be then? 152 00:10:18,989 --> 00:10:22,079 Jayne Groll: So my biggest concern about DevOps is that it 153 00:10:22,079 --> 00:10:25,769 falls into the category of frameworks. Because, you know, 154 00:10:25,769 --> 00:10:29,099 as you know, in DevOps, we have kind of trends, patterns, 155 00:10:29,099 --> 00:10:32,939 fashions that we like, you know, it's been a total it's been 156 00:10:32,939 --> 00:10:36,269 agile, it's, you know, pick a framework, right, we, we've kind 157 00:10:36,269 --> 00:10:41,579 of embraced and adopted it, I would love to see DevOps, which 158 00:10:41,579 --> 00:10:43,739 some people talk about talk to somebody yesterday, they said, 159 00:10:43,859 --> 00:10:49,049 Well, we have a team doing DevOps, right. And that scares 160 00:10:49,049 --> 00:10:53,309 me because it becomes something that the developers do Agile, 161 00:10:53,309 --> 00:10:57,779 and there's a team doing DevOps, and there's a team doing sre. 162 00:10:58,019 --> 00:11:03,299 And so it falls into the same bucket of practices that, you 163 00:11:03,299 --> 00:11:05,969 know, had their day in the sunshine, and then eventually 164 00:11:05,969 --> 00:11:09,479 faded away. I like to think of DevOps as an umbrella or even a 165 00:11:09,479 --> 00:11:12,689 recipe, right, so that when we look at it in the future, your 166 00:11:12,689 --> 00:11:18,359 recipe and my recipe, we may both make the same food, but 167 00:11:18,359 --> 00:11:21,599 your proportion of ingredients or your your quality of 168 00:11:21,599 --> 00:11:24,389 ingredients may be different than mine. And your outcome may 169 00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:26,489 be different than mine, but at the end of the day was still 170 00:11:26,489 --> 00:11:30,509 trying to bake a cake. Right, so So I would like to think that 171 00:11:30,509 --> 00:11:34,469 the term DevOps kind of, you know, grows up into something, 172 00:11:34,499 --> 00:11:37,559 well, sort of, like, you know, generally accepted it 173 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,619 principles, my husband's a CPA, and they've got generally 174 00:11:40,619 --> 00:11:44,879 accepted accounting principles, I would love that future, to be 175 00:11:44,879 --> 00:11:49,919 this, this kind of ecosystem of not only agile and DevOps and 176 00:11:49,919 --> 00:11:52,889 SRE, but other things that come along, that just makes sense. 177 00:11:53,309 --> 00:11:57,809 And that as an organization from a scale perspective, because I 178 00:11:57,809 --> 00:12:01,919 think that's the challenge today is, you know, organizations have 179 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:05,489 experimented with this thing called DevOps or agile or 180 00:12:05,489 --> 00:12:10,829 Essary. But scale is a really, really big issue. And I think if 181 00:12:10,829 --> 00:12:15,269 we kind of look at this as an umbrella or a recipe or 182 00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:18,659 generally accepted it principles, then I think that it 183 00:12:18,659 --> 00:12:24,779 has a longer ability to deliver value, and that it isn't just 184 00:12:24,779 --> 00:12:29,189 today's fashion trend. And tomorrow, some new framework 185 00:12:29,189 --> 00:12:33,089 comes out that somebody defines and, you know, we throw out this 186 00:12:33,089 --> 00:12:35,999 and we bring something else. And I think DevOps has a lot of 187 00:12:35,999 --> 00:12:39,989 sustainability. If we really look at it as kind of supply 188 00:12:39,989 --> 00:12:43,889 chain management, or generally accepted it principles or 189 00:12:43,889 --> 00:12:46,589 something along those ways. That may be wishful thinking, 190 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:51,119 truthfully, you know, it, we love our frameworks. But I do 191 00:12:51,119 --> 00:12:53,909 think there's one other thing, I think that's very important, you 192 00:12:53,909 --> 00:12:56,729 know, Evelyn, where you and I sit, it feels like the 193 00:12:56,729 --> 00:12:59,999 organizations we talk to have maturity, and they've been doing 194 00:12:59,999 --> 00:13:03,659 stuff in there moving forward, I think there's a lot of 195 00:13:03,659 --> 00:13:07,889 organizations that are either at the gate, or just opening the 196 00:13:07,889 --> 00:13:12,569 gate to start experimenting with this thing we call DevOps. So I 197 00:13:12,569 --> 00:13:15,719 also think the next three to five years, those that have 198 00:13:15,719 --> 00:13:18,599 started down the journey are struggling with scale. But I 199 00:13:18,599 --> 00:13:21,869 also think we have to be very sensitive to the fact that not 200 00:13:21,869 --> 00:13:25,079 everybody is there, right? There were those that are still like, 201 00:13:25,229 --> 00:13:29,729 I know, we need to do something helped me. So I think more 202 00:13:29,729 --> 00:13:32,579 education, I think more training, I think more 203 00:13:32,579 --> 00:13:36,299 commonality between the different teams, I think an 204 00:13:36,299 --> 00:13:39,089 understanding of what they're doing and why they're doing it, 205 00:13:39,089 --> 00:13:42,239 humans need that. I think for those organizations that are 206 00:13:42,239 --> 00:13:46,379 just kind of getting started, we have to recognize them, we have 207 00:13:46,379 --> 00:13:49,169 to nurture them, we have to support them, but with 208 00:13:49,169 --> 00:13:53,489 continuous opportunities to learn and not not fatigue them 209 00:13:53,609 --> 00:13:56,939 because those organizations are fatigued, which is probably why 210 00:13:56,939 --> 00:13:59,909 they haven't crossed the gate yet. You know, they they've done 211 00:13:59,909 --> 00:14:02,129 things in the past. They've spent a lot of money in the 212 00:14:02,129 --> 00:14:05,819 past. And now we're telling them do something different. So I 213 00:14:05,819 --> 00:14:08,099 think the next three to five years, hopefully we see those 214 00:14:08,099 --> 00:14:09,959 organizations move as well. 215 00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:13,110 Eveline Oehrlich: Great vision. I like it. I absolutely agree. 216 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,860 Super, thank you again, for your time. This has been very 217 00:14:16,890 --> 00:14:20,400 insightful. Happy to have you on. I will let you go back to 218 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,480 your day job. And again, we heard from Jayne Groll, CEO of 219 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,050 the DevOps Institute. Thank you again, Jayne. Thanks, Eveline. 220 00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:33,570 I'm also today with Charlie Betz or Charles Betz. At four star 221 00:14:33,570 --> 00:14:36,660 I'll let Charlie introduce himself. But a quick little 222 00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:41,700 highlight Charlie and I actually met way before for so I want to 223 00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:44,070 say what year was that? Charlie? Was that in? 224 00:14:45,180 --> 00:14:48,600 Charles Betz: It could have been as early as 2007 or eight. Yeah. 225 00:14:49,530 --> 00:14:51,930 Eveline Oehrlich: That sounds about right. I think you were at 226 00:14:51,930 --> 00:14:54,870 a particular financial institution. And I was already 227 00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:57,540 forced or and I think we talked about and of course architecture 228 00:14:57,540 --> 00:14:59,970 so quickly. Tell us what are you doing today, Charlie? 229 00:15:00,930 --> 00:15:03,570 Charles Betz: Well, currently, I'm the vice president and 230 00:15:03,570 --> 00:15:07,200 research director for Enterprise Architecture at at Forrester. So 231 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:13,350 I've kind of come full circle after going through a number of 232 00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:16,590 interests and roles, including enterprise service management 233 00:15:16,590 --> 00:15:20,250 and DevOps. I've come back to my roots. 234 00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:24,569 Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent. excited to have you here. And 235 00:15:24,599 --> 00:15:28,619 the question really, I have for you today, where do you think 236 00:15:28,649 --> 00:15:32,399 DevOps is today in 2022? Give us your thoughts. 237 00:15:33,659 --> 00:15:36,929 Charles Betz: Well, a lot of the basic technical issues have been 238 00:15:36,989 --> 00:15:41,909 solved, you know, in terms of in terms of the market, you know, 239 00:15:41,909 --> 00:15:47,579 for, for example, enabling technology. You know, we had a 240 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:51,209 great run of innovation, they're solving problems, like 241 00:15:51,209 --> 00:15:54,209 continuous integration, continuous delivery. And for the 242 00:15:54,209 --> 00:15:59,879 most part, these problems are now settled. The, of course, 243 00:15:59,909 --> 00:16:03,149 DevOps has never just been about the technology, it's also about 244 00:16:03,179 --> 00:16:09,059 culture process, ways of working. And there things are 245 00:16:09,059 --> 00:16:13,649 still very interesting to me. And my coverage, and kind of my 246 00:16:13,649 --> 00:16:17,009 call is, you know, at Forrester, we're, you know, we're we are 247 00:16:17,009 --> 00:16:21,659 encouraged to make the call is really that DevOps has evolved 248 00:16:21,719 --> 00:16:25,499 into a conversation around the product centric operating model. 249 00:16:26,969 --> 00:16:32,429 You know, there's a lot that is kind of bound up in that one 250 00:16:32,429 --> 00:16:36,419 might say, in terms of the ways of working the expectations for 251 00:16:36,419 --> 00:16:40,559 collaboration, the need for well defined and automated services. 252 00:16:41,249 --> 00:16:44,849 And the interesting thing to me is that I think, you know, the 253 00:16:44,849 --> 00:16:48,029 industry is engaged in this tremendous amount of 254 00:16:48,029 --> 00:16:54,479 experimentation. And yet, we still are, in many ways, many 255 00:16:54,479 --> 00:16:56,939 people call me and they say, what are the best practices? I'm 256 00:16:56,939 --> 00:16:59,789 saying, we don't even have good practices, we have 257 00:16:59,789 --> 00:17:03,539 experimentation and emerging practices right now, in terms of 258 00:17:03,779 --> 00:17:09,779 how organizations actually can an optimally organize in a ways 259 00:17:09,809 --> 00:17:12,599 that that reflect the DevOps values. 260 00:17:15,090 --> 00:17:19,890 Eveline Oehrlich: So to us, then, what I hear you say is, 261 00:17:19,890 --> 00:17:24,090 there's still plenty of work to do, right. Yeah. So things for 262 00:17:24,090 --> 00:17:27,660 the enterprises across all different verticals, to tackle 263 00:17:27,660 --> 00:17:32,490 this, these different things, let's call them practices. I 264 00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:36,840 just read a blog where there was this discussion about, is there 265 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,600 something like a best practice, but we'll save that for another 266 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:46,680 podcast? Yeah, let's go forward in maybe 2, 3, 4 years, 267 00:17:46,740 --> 00:17:50,280 sometimes people say, you know, what's happening in four years? 268 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,500 What can we even predict? We don't know. Right? And we still 269 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:56,580 here we don't know. But in your crystal ball at Forrester. And 270 00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:59,190 when you think of your customers and your clients, what do you 271 00:17:59,190 --> 00:18:03,330 think, where are we with DevOps in three to four years from 272 00:18:03,330 --> 00:18:03,810 today? 273 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,290 Charles Betz: Well, the I think the big challenge right now is 274 00:18:10,650 --> 00:18:17,490 getting infrastructure teams up to speed. The product centric 275 00:18:17,490 --> 00:18:23,490 conversation has taken root in business and customer facing 276 00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:27,240 teams. And this is not just DevOps, you know, this is kind 277 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,670 of a convergence of DevOps with Agile. And we see a lot of, I 278 00:18:32,670 --> 00:18:37,980 think, fairly effective use of agile and DevOps, when the 279 00:18:37,980 --> 00:18:43,050 problem is creating software for business and or customer facing 280 00:18:43,050 --> 00:18:46,500 purposes. And by the way, I don't like the term business 281 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:52,740 versus it but you know, we're kind of stuck with it. What is 282 00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:56,490 the big challenge right now is that the infrastructure, the 283 00:18:56,490 --> 00:18:59,970 classic infrastructure and operations organizations, the 284 00:18:59,970 --> 00:19:03,390 specialists and what we used to call it forester most 285 00:19:04,260 --> 00:19:09,690 maintenance and operations, etc. They're still struggling. And 286 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:15,300 the challenge is that, in less unless the infrastructure teams 287 00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:20,520 get up to speed. Organizations are at risk of losing 288 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,530 developers. Developers are no longer patient. With 289 00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:29,010 infrastructure teams and services teams that take too 290 00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:34,140 long or bureaucratic are heavy handed. They want automation, 291 00:19:34,170 --> 00:19:39,570 they want better customer focus, better customer service, and 292 00:19:39,570 --> 00:19:44,190 speaking as internal customers in this sense. And that's the 293 00:19:44,190 --> 00:19:47,940 challenge for the infrastructure teams around the world and we 294 00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:51,660 know of organizations like nationwide on the record, I can 295 00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:54,060 talk about them because they presented at the DevOps 296 00:19:54,060 --> 00:19:56,820 enterprise summit about their transformation of their 297 00:19:56,820 --> 00:20:00,000 infrastructure team, but there are certain unsolved parts 298 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,510 problems that I would predict in four years, we start to see 299 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,490 actual, again emerging or at least good practices, defensible 300 00:20:08,490 --> 00:20:13,260 practices, maybe not best. And those are going to revolve 301 00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:16,260 around the fact that infrastructure teams, there's a 302 00:20:16,260 --> 00:20:21,240 reason that they're bureaucratic and slow. The reason that we're 303 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,600 starting to really put our finger on and I had a webinar 304 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,530 with Nick Kiersten, where we went very deep into this is that 305 00:20:28,530 --> 00:20:33,330 the infrastructure teams have been overly single threaded. And 306 00:20:33,330 --> 00:20:36,660 they've had one person responsible for Personnel 307 00:20:36,660 --> 00:20:40,470 Management, their product vision, the engineering 308 00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:45,000 problems, and demand and execution management. And if you 309 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,830 look analytically, at what a successful Agile transformation 310 00:20:49,860 --> 00:20:55,200 does, at the customer facing or business facing layer, they 311 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,100 split all those responsibilities out into what we call the X in a 312 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:03,270 box model. But translating the X and A box model to the 313 00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:08,160 infrastructure world, is a very hard problem. And to do it 314 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,300 correctly, requires having conversations with your 315 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:17,400 infrastructure team and your CFO that guess what, we now need 316 00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:21,690 additional people additional skills in the infrastructure 317 00:21:21,690 --> 00:21:24,630 world in order for infrastructure to keep up with 318 00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:28,320 the application world that is moving so fast. So that was a 319 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,880 bit of a deep dive there. 320 00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:33,950 Eveline Oehrlich: Absolutely good. So the way I look at it, 321 00:21:33,980 --> 00:21:37,220 it's the train and the front end, or maybe it's a it's not a 322 00:21:37,220 --> 00:21:41,000 train, maybe it's it's a different vehicle, but the for 323 00:21:41,210 --> 00:21:44,720 the for the forward place where the customers are touching and 324 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,410 where there is agility is moving faster than the back. And so 325 00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:51,830 yes, those folks, right, so so for those who are listening in, 326 00:21:52,130 --> 00:21:56,000 who are in infrastructure, keep working, keep doing what you're 327 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,420 doing, but do it in an improved way. Do it in a DevOps way. I 328 00:21:59,420 --> 00:22:00,590 think that's what I heard you say? 329 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,390 Charles Betz: That's well, but let me let me, let me, let me 330 00:22:03,390 --> 00:22:06,150 let me refine that a little bit. It's not enough to tell the 331 00:22:06,150 --> 00:22:09,750 infrastructure people just work smarter, work harder, work 332 00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:14,010 faster, they've been told that their whole life. And speaking 333 00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:16,440 as somebody who's worked a lot with infrastructure teams, it's 334 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,030 in some ways, not fair. The problem is that, let me just put 335 00:22:19,290 --> 00:23:13,980 Eveline Oehrlich: It'd be interesting to look at the job 336 00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:25,260 a real fine, a real basic point on it. We don't give 337 00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:31,620 infrastructure teams, product managers. The infrastructure 338 00:22:31,620 --> 00:22:34,950 team leader is typically a functional specialist, like a 339 00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:38,610 DBA, or a network specialist or a cloud specialist, they rise up 340 00:22:38,610 --> 00:22:41,190 through the ranks, they know their domain, but they don't 341 00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:43,740 know the first thing about product management. They don't 342 00:22:43,740 --> 00:22:48,870 think in customer centric terms. And the thing is, is you cannot 343 00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:52,860 load all that work onto one person. Yep, you have to you 344 00:22:52,860 --> 00:22:56,430 have to break apart the people management, the engineering 345 00:22:56,430 --> 00:23:02,310 management, the product vision for that platform. And these now 346 00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:05,640 need to be different responsibilities. And the 347 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,330 infrastructure augment starts to need to mirror its application 348 00:23:09,330 --> 00:23:12,480 customers. But this Eveline, this is not going to be easy, 349 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,900 because you're going to the CFO and saying, these infrastructure 350 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,600 descriptions of those folks. Right. So what we're saying also 351 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,110 teams composed of specialists led by a specialist who's rose 352 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:48,210 is, I guess that's what I hear you say it's a significant 353 00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:22,710 up through the ranks, they now need an a more diverse set of 354 00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:27,150 characters, leading the team so that they can be more responsive 355 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:29,760 to the application teams. And of course, the CFO is just going to 356 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,420 see, you know, dollar signs or euro signs, depending on your 357 00:23:33,420 --> 00:23:37,980 continent. And it's not gonna be an easy conversation. 358 00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:52,260 redefinition of what the infrastructure engineer needs, 359 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,560 needs to be doing. Excellent. This is great role 360 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,110 Charles Betz: is getting a lot of discussion. Yeah, the role 361 00:23:58,110 --> 00:24:00,900 that's getting a lot of discussion is technical product 362 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:01,620 manager. 363 00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:04,350 Eveline Oehrlich: Ah, interesting. Okay. Maybe just 364 00:24:04,350 --> 00:24:08,550 something technical product manager will be doing a lot of 365 00:24:08,550 --> 00:24:11,370 work around at the DevOps Institute, as you might know, a 366 00:24:11,370 --> 00:24:14,490 relative to skills and skill development and role definitions 367 00:24:14,490 --> 00:24:17,790 and things like that. So that is certainly something I have to 368 00:24:18,660 --> 00:24:22,050 have on my to do list. This has been a great conversation, 369 00:24:22,050 --> 00:24:26,220 Charlie, thank you so much. My pleasure. Yes. Stay in touch be 370 00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:32,280 well, you too. Don't worry about us. You're the DevOps Institute. 371 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,840 Thank you so much. And hopefully I get to see you. Next time. I 372 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,790 come to Minnesota my daughter actually moved. She moved to 373 00:24:42,330 --> 00:24:46,110 from St. Paul, Minnesota. We went to the Japanese restaurant 374 00:24:46,110 --> 00:24:49,950 remember where you and your wife and then was with us? We went 375 00:24:49,950 --> 00:24:53,700 there the first time since then she loves it and she seems to go 376 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:57,060 there all the time. So when I come there next time you go 377 00:24:58,020 --> 00:25:00,780 Charles Betz: Yeah, we'll go to box drop away. And we will we 378 00:25:00,780 --> 00:25:01,680 will go to Zambia. Yeah. 379 00:25:01,710 --> 00:25:03,480 Eveline Oehrlich: And it's my treat. I think you tweeted last 380 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,070 time. So next time will be my tweet, 381 00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:06,840 Charles Betz: Remember, but of course, all right. 382 00:25:06,990 --> 00:25:09,150 Eveline Oehrlich: Thank you so much. Take care. Thanks, 383 00:25:09,150 --> 00:25:11,040 everyone. Bye. Bye. 384 00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:15,870 Ad: Are you looking to get DevOps certified? Demonstrate 385 00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:17,910 your DevOps knowledge and advance your career with a 386 00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:20,880 certification from DevOps Institute, get certified in 387 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,660 DevOps leader, SRE or dev SEC ops, just to name a few. Learn 388 00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:28,410 anywhere, anytime. The choice is yours. Choose to get certified 389 00:25:28,410 --> 00:25:31,860 through our vast partner network self study programs, or our new 390 00:25:31,860 --> 00:25:34,860 skillup elearning videos. The exams are developed in 391 00:25:34,860 --> 00:25:37,410 collaboration with industry thought leaders, and subject 392 00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:40,410 matter experts in the DevOps space. Learn more in DevOps 393 00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:42,330 institute.com/certifications. 394 00:25:46,350 --> 00:25:48,720 Eveline Oehrlich: And now, we are actually with Helen Beal, 395 00:25:48,750 --> 00:25:52,320 who is one of the thought leaders of DevOps, and many, 396 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,190 many other topics. Helen has covered DevOps, I think, 397 00:25:56,190 --> 00:26:00,120 forever, ever since I joined the topic, DevOps Helen has been in 398 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:04,290 it. So great to have you on our podcast today, Helen, Hello, how 399 00:26:04,290 --> 00:26:04,890 you doing? 400 00:26:05,220 --> 00:26:07,770 Helen Beal: Hello, I am fantastic, thank you, and 401 00:26:07,770 --> 00:26:10,260 delighted to be here and chatting with you again, as 402 00:26:10,260 --> 00:26:11,070 always, 403 00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:13,110 Eveline Oehrlich: Likewise, and it was great just recently 404 00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:17,520 seeing you in person, that was a bit. So that was really fun. 405 00:26:19,710 --> 00:26:23,730 The, as you've been in the space for quite a long time, and as I 406 00:26:23,730 --> 00:26:26,520 mentioned, disorderly during this, I really, really want to 407 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,090 know where if you think about the journey we've been through, 408 00:26:30,090 --> 00:26:34,260 right, starting in 2008, or some people live, you think earlier, 409 00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:38,670 where are we in this topic of DevOps today? In 2022? What 410 00:26:38,670 --> 00:26:39,450 would you say? 411 00:26:39,930 --> 00:26:44,400 Helen Beal: Yeah, sort of 13 or so years in, I'd say DevOps is 412 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,310 definitely mainstream, I'd say there probably isn't an 413 00:26:47,310 --> 00:26:50,430 enterprise in the world that doesn't know about DevOps and 414 00:26:50,430 --> 00:26:54,900 isn't trying to do DevOps at some level. But I'd also look to 415 00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:58,980 puppet state of DevOps report from last year 2021, which talks 416 00:26:58,980 --> 00:27:03,570 about the middle layer, and the fact that lots of organizations 417 00:27:03,570 --> 00:27:06,690 are stuck in that middle level of performance in terms of 418 00:27:06,690 --> 00:27:11,790 adoption, and capability. So whilst it's really well 419 00:27:11,790 --> 00:27:15,060 established now, and I think most people think it is the the 420 00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:18,480 way of working that we use, if we want to operate in a digital 421 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,490 economy, we still have some ways to go to fully adopt all of the 422 00:27:23,490 --> 00:27:27,480 practices, and really benefit from the promise it's made to us 423 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,820 in terms of speed of delivery, quality of delivery, and super 424 00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:35,220 happy customers, because they're just having such great 425 00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:36,390 experiences. 426 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,000 Eveline Oehrlich: Do you see any regional differences? Or do you 427 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,320 see, is that a global thing when you say it's mainstream? Or do 428 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,200 you see anything different in in a particular region? 429 00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:48,810 Helen Beal: Yeah, I mean, I don't know the data on that. But 430 00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:52,830 that there's a feeling that I get from my ambassadors, which I 431 00:27:52,830 --> 00:27:56,400 think is quite interesting. So as you know, DevOps Institute in 432 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,370 that Chief Ambassador role I have, we have about coming up to 433 00:27:59,370 --> 00:28:02,850 250 Ambassadors across six continents. I think I'm in 434 00:28:02,850 --> 00:28:06,030 sixth, I mean, all the continents except Antarctica, 435 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,810 which is obviously mostly populated by penguins, and 436 00:28:09,930 --> 00:28:12,870 researchers. So we're not really anticipating having any 437 00:28:13,140 --> 00:28:17,040 ambassadors from there. But we do have ambassadors from nearly 438 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,950 every country. And some countries have surprised me when 439 00:28:19,950 --> 00:28:23,730 we've received applications. So for example, Nepal was one and 440 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,610 you wouldn't naturally think, oh, Nepal, we know their big 441 00:28:26,610 --> 00:28:30,090 business doing like laser tech, but it's it really has to, as 442 00:28:30,090 --> 00:28:32,790 far as I can tell, reached everywhere, I think, you know, 443 00:28:32,790 --> 00:28:37,140 there are nations and markets that have led and for that we'd 444 00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:40,890 probably look to, obviously North America, and Europe and 445 00:28:40,890 --> 00:28:44,580 parts of Asia, particularly India, and Singapore is kind of 446 00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:48,420 Intertek leaders and China. And Japan has big tech leaders as 447 00:28:48,420 --> 00:28:51,360 well. But I don't know what about you, you. You've probably 448 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,580 seen more data than I have on this. What do you think? 449 00:28:54,270 --> 00:28:56,220 Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I would agree. I think I think you hit 450 00:28:56,220 --> 00:28:59,640 it on the nail, I think. I love your comment on the Antarctica. 451 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,760 So if there is anybody out there listening to us, from the 452 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,820 Antarctica, and you are in DevOps, you should connect with 453 00:29:05,820 --> 00:29:08,400 Helen, she's looking for an ambassador, it's great 454 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,840 government. Now pull out your crystal ball and think down the 455 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:18,240 road. Maybe sometimes people say strategic is two or three years 456 00:29:18,270 --> 00:29:22,710 depends on I don't know, if, in our crazy life and crazy world 457 00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:25,710 if two or three years is even possible, right? But pull out 458 00:29:25,710 --> 00:29:29,100 your crystal ball and share with us what do you think where this 459 00:29:29,130 --> 00:29:34,500 is in maybe two to three years from today? So 2025 2026, 460 00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:37,410 something like that. Where do you think that DevOps will be 461 00:29:37,410 --> 00:29:37,800 done? 462 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,100 Helen Beal: So I mentioned the data from the puppet state of 463 00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:46,230 DevOps report 2021. And this kind of frozen, middle, bit 464 00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:48,840 confusing using that word, that terminology because we often use 465 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,570 it to talk about management layers, but the idea that we've 466 00:29:51,570 --> 00:29:54,330 got a lot of enterprises that are kind of stuck in their 467 00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:58,560 DevOps adoption and are yet to realize the promises that DevOps 468 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,310 has made them It won't surprise you at all, I've learned to hear 469 00:30:02,310 --> 00:30:05,370 that I'm going to say that I think there's a key to unlocking 470 00:30:05,550 --> 00:30:08,610 this problem. And that key is value stream management. So 471 00:30:08,850 --> 00:30:12,210 value stream management very much emerging in a kind of new 472 00:30:12,210 --> 00:30:15,240 renascence. Obviously, it's been around since the 1950s. Or 473 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,690 earlier, you know, if you can go all the way back to materials 474 00:30:18,690 --> 00:30:21,570 and information planning in the Venice Arsenal in the 1400s. So 475 00:30:21,570 --> 00:30:24,390 we could go back that far. But that issue management is very 476 00:30:24,390 --> 00:30:28,110 much having a renaissance right now, that was kind of triggered 477 00:30:28,110 --> 00:30:33,510 by some work done by Forrester in around 2018, so around four 478 00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:38,430 years ago. And the reason it's new and different now to what 479 00:30:38,430 --> 00:30:41,670 it's been before, is because of what we've done in DevOps. So we 480 00:30:41,670 --> 00:30:44,940 have spent the last 13 years or so learning about how to build 481 00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:48,330 DevOps tool chains. And those DevOps tool chains are giving us 482 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,900 access to data about value streams, digital value streams, 483 00:30:52,140 --> 00:30:55,170 in a way that we just haven't been able to. And even at the 484 00:30:55,230 --> 00:30:59,460 advent of DevOps, you know, back in the day, we were only just 485 00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:01,830 starting really to do things like automated builds, and 486 00:31:01,830 --> 00:31:04,890 automated testing and continuous delivery. So it's all relatively 487 00:31:04,890 --> 00:31:09,840 new. So in 2025, my hope would be that we would see 488 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,780 organizations embracing value stream management, which 489 00:31:12,780 --> 00:31:16,680 sometimes I call the next evolution of DevOps. Sometimes I 490 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,370 say that DevOps is like the toolkit that delivers on what 491 00:31:20,370 --> 00:31:24,090 VSM is trying to achieve. So the the outcomes that it's looking 492 00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:27,210 for are enabled by DevOps practices. But either way, I'd 493 00:31:27,210 --> 00:31:30,990 like to see, I'd like to see that middle layer of 494 00:31:31,020 --> 00:31:35,190 organization and capability improving. And I think the 495 00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:37,710 adoption of VSM is the thing that is going to make that 496 00:31:37,710 --> 00:31:41,220 shift. And if we look at that data, it's four years so far 497 00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:44,430 consecutively, that it's not really changed. So we could go 498 00:31:44,430 --> 00:31:47,940 another four years with it not really changing. If we don't do 499 00:31:47,940 --> 00:31:50,910 something new. And I think that's something new is VSM. 500 00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:53,850 Eveline Oehrlich: Is there a specific place people can learn 501 00:31:53,850 --> 00:31:56,730 more about VSM? What, where would you want them to? 502 00:31:56,940 --> 00:31:58,950 Helen Beal: So I would point them at the value stream 503 00:31:58,950 --> 00:32:03,150 management Consortium, which is at VSM consortium.org. Just 504 00:32:03,150 --> 00:32:07,920 yesterday, we released our state of VSM report 2022. So are 505 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,600 second in that annual series. And of course, Evelyn and I were 506 00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:16,140 lead researchers on that report. So we hope if you get a chance 507 00:32:16,140 --> 00:32:17,820 to read it, that you'll enjoy it. 508 00:32:18,270 --> 00:32:21,210 Eveline Oehrlich: Great. Well, thanks, Helen. This was great. 509 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,660 Appreciate your thoughts. And again, for those out in the end 510 00:32:24,660 --> 00:32:29,280 RTR if you have any interest in DevOps, but of course, everybody 511 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,180 else reach out. We're here to help and particularly, Thanks, 512 00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:36,330 Helen, your thought leadership has brought this space and many 513 00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:39,480 other spaces quite ahead. So thanks. 514 00:32:39,930 --> 00:32:42,870 Helen Beal: Thank you. It's a very joyful experience. So thank 515 00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:43,080 you. 516 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,710 Eveline Oehrlich: And now I'm here with Mark Hornbeek who is a 517 00:32:47,710 --> 00:32:51,700 an expert in DevOps as well, Mark and I have done some work 518 00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:55,540 together on a variety of chapters in our skill books. And 519 00:32:56,050 --> 00:32:58,900 so great to have you also here with us, Mark. Hi, how are you 520 00:32:58,900 --> 00:32:59,410 doing? 521 00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:04,020 Mark Hornbeek: I'm good. More information for another day, but 522 00:33:04,020 --> 00:33:04,740 I'm good today. 523 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,070 Eveline Oehrlich: That's great. So my question for you as well 524 00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:12,330 is what is DevOps today in 2022, you've been in this space for 525 00:33:12,330 --> 00:33:15,240 quite some time. So share with us your thoughts. 526 00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:17,760 Mark Hornbeek: So I can only say that my you know, I can only 527 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,170 relate my own experiences. I'm immersed in DevOps, you know, 528 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,430 pretty much every day, and have been for many, many years. But 529 00:33:26,430 --> 00:33:30,210 as kind of a practitioner mostly at the strategic level guiding 530 00:33:30,210 --> 00:33:34,800 companies and other things of that level. So you know, what I 531 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,310 see happening today, mostly, with my clients, I have quite a 532 00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:41,850 large number of active clients, and I, you know, in the context 533 00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:44,850 of guiding their DevOps practices, so it's, when I talk 534 00:33:44,850 --> 00:33:46,920 about think about DevOps today, I think about what they're 535 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,380 asking for and what they're doing. And so it's really 536 00:33:49,380 --> 00:33:54,090 relaying actual day to day experience of what I see people 537 00:33:54,090 --> 00:33:59,790 doing today versus in the past. So fundamentally, I see kind of 538 00:33:59,790 --> 00:34:07,620 three channels of practices. So what we call DevOps, which is 539 00:34:07,620 --> 00:34:11,730 really big D and little O, where companies are still really 540 00:34:11,730 --> 00:34:16,890 trying to master and mature there are CI CD practices. And 541 00:34:16,890 --> 00:34:19,350 even though those terms have been around a long time, I still 542 00:34:19,350 --> 00:34:23,460 find that even the large enterprises are struggling to 543 00:34:23,490 --> 00:34:27,270 really, you know, make an efficient CI, let alone CD 544 00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:30,510 process so that that's still true. More and more are 545 00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:34,260 maturing, but there's still a lot of maturing yet to do in 546 00:34:34,290 --> 00:34:40,110 DevOps, see ICD, but those that have got to some better level of 547 00:34:40,110 --> 00:34:46,440 maturity, are now engaging more with SRE practices to complement 548 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:51,000 their dev, big D. Little ops practices with product, what I 549 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,660 call production operations, being more smart about how they 550 00:34:54,660 --> 00:34:58,800 couple their dev activities with their production activities. And 551 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,100 then dev SEC ops. And I started to list them in this order. 552 00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:05,190 Again, I'm only relaying my own experiences. But I see, you 553 00:35:05,190 --> 00:35:08,760 know, most of my clients that are big organizations, they then 554 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,170 attack all this security integrations with with DevOps 555 00:35:13,230 --> 00:35:18,330 and sre. So really, I see a maturing happening along the 556 00:35:18,330 --> 00:35:22,440 lines of those kind of three channels, DevOps with CIC, D, 557 00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:27,330 SRE, and Dev SEC ops. But there's still somewhat separate 558 00:35:27,330 --> 00:35:30,630 projects, they're not as integrated as you might think 559 00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:33,330 they could be at this point, at least with the clients I'm 560 00:35:33,330 --> 00:35:37,470 dealing with. How are they doing that? Again, from my own 561 00:35:37,470 --> 00:35:42,090 experiences, directed roadmaps, a lot of training. foundational 562 00:35:42,090 --> 00:35:44,610 level training is always a good thing place to start and 563 00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:48,030 immersive learning, through projects and other you know, 564 00:35:48,690 --> 00:35:54,120 activities like that. And those a lot of tools, consolidation 565 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,120 efforts, especially the big enterprises that have grown up 566 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,780 through acquisitions, or allowing their different teams 567 00:36:00,780 --> 00:36:04,590 to experiment with DevOps. And they ended up with a plethora of 568 00:36:04,590 --> 00:36:07,590 different types of tools. And now they're finding out that to 569 00:36:07,590 --> 00:36:09,540 really get to the next level of maturity, they need to 570 00:36:09,540 --> 00:36:13,740 consolidate to a more common tool base. Along with that, 571 00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:17,250 there's a lot of migration to the cloud, the in embracing 572 00:36:17,250 --> 00:36:20,640 infrastructures code to try to make their pipelines more 573 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,710 efficient. And at this stage, also, there's a lot of focus on 574 00:36:25,710 --> 00:36:30,090 metrics. But they're really again, kind of focused areas 575 00:36:30,090 --> 00:36:33,150 about metrics, different parts of the digital value streams 576 00:36:33,150 --> 00:36:35,970 have different metrics. And people are still struggling to 577 00:36:35,970 --> 00:36:39,780 understand, you know that there are different kinds of metrics 578 00:36:39,780 --> 00:36:43,560 that need to be ultimately integrated together to provide 579 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,890 the big picture. There's, you know, people expert in certain 580 00:36:46,890 --> 00:36:51,780 areas or the other. So, the dev side CI, the CD, the deployment, 581 00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:55,020 which is different than delivery. And of course, 582 00:36:55,020 --> 00:36:58,290 production is all of these things, have different types of 583 00:36:58,290 --> 00:37:01,860 metrics, and I see organizations still struggling to understand 584 00:37:01,860 --> 00:37:05,130 the breadth and depth of all of those metrics. And if you don't 585 00:37:05,130 --> 00:37:08,460 have right metrics, then it's hard to really evolve to higher 586 00:37:08,460 --> 00:37:11,820 levels of maturity, to try to understand what's really going 587 00:37:11,820 --> 00:37:15,180 on at the big picture level, when you think about things as 588 00:37:15,180 --> 00:37:18,210 an entire, you know, end to end system. So that's kind of DevOps 589 00:37:18,210 --> 00:37:22,170 today, in my, in my world, you know, there's still a lot of 590 00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:28,080 learning about CIC, D, a lot of good projects, probably, from 591 00:37:28,110 --> 00:37:32,910 what I've seen, less than half, certainly less than half of the 592 00:37:32,910 --> 00:37:35,580 organizations have achieved what I call, you know, high level of 593 00:37:35,580 --> 00:37:39,300 CI, CD performance. And most of them are still kind of beginners 594 00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:44,790 with CI or CD with sre. And dev SEC ops, the security 595 00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:47,490 organizations are still highly siloed. For the most part, 596 00:37:47,940 --> 00:37:51,360 they're focusing more on the production side of security, and 597 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,230 learning more about the dev side of security. So to me, that's 598 00:37:55,230 --> 00:37:57,780 kind of the state of the practice. Okay, it's not the 599 00:37:57,780 --> 00:37:59,970 state of the art. I mean, there are certainly lots of you know, 600 00:38:00,420 --> 00:38:03,750 unicorns are doing a lot more than that. Right. But when I, 601 00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:05,820 when I think about today, I think about the state of the 602 00:38:05,820 --> 00:38:06,600 practice, 603 00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:08,550 Eveline Oehrlich: At the enterprise level. So really 604 00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:12,840 continuously evolving the journey, even after it was 605 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,280 introduced in 2008. So if I give you a crystal ball mark, and we 606 00:38:17,310 --> 00:38:21,150 move fast forward, maybe three years, you know, strategic 607 00:38:21,150 --> 00:38:24,180 thinking three years, maybe five years, depending on which of 608 00:38:24,180 --> 00:38:27,480 course, industry vertical, where do you think these enterprises 609 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,590 will be three to five years out? Still, of course, maturing, but 610 00:38:31,620 --> 00:38:35,580 will they will there ever be done is done? What's the next 611 00:38:35,610 --> 00:38:38,280 what's the next stage for for those who are kind of in the 612 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,860 middle or more on the higher level of maturity? 613 00:38:41,490 --> 00:38:43,920 Mark Hornbeek: Well, you can look at the elite performers, as 614 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,210 Dora calls it or, you know, the, the unicorns to see what they're 615 00:38:48,210 --> 00:38:50,790 doing is as an indicator of where a lot of these other 616 00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:54,840 organizations want to get to, ultimately, I think it's more 617 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,740 about the future is more about integrated and, and practices. 618 00:38:58,770 --> 00:39:02,010 So rather than having separate, you know, DevOps SRE dev SEC 619 00:39:02,010 --> 00:39:05,730 ops, is, I think it's going to be far more integrated into end 620 00:39:05,730 --> 00:39:08,190 continuous value stream orchestration and monitoring, 621 00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:14,610 continuous Dev and prod ops. So, you know, SRE and DevOps being 622 00:39:14,610 --> 00:39:17,310 more combined quality being looked at as more of a 623 00:39:17,310 --> 00:39:20,580 continuous effort from, you know, planning all the way 624 00:39:20,580 --> 00:39:24,390 through to production, and especially as you get more 625 00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:28,110 mature than a lot of testing and quality analysis going on, even 626 00:39:28,380 --> 00:39:33,510 post post release in into the production, deployment 627 00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:36,870 environment, and security itself. You know, today, it's 628 00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:40,770 very much kind of bifurcated. Dev SEC Ops is really about 629 00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:44,460 vulnerability prevention. Up until prod, it's kind of like 630 00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:46,950 DevOps, it doesn't really inform that much about what happens in 631 00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:51,420 prod, but a certain great set of practices for preventing 632 00:39:51,420 --> 00:39:54,330 vulnerabilities getting into prod, but you still have a whole 633 00:39:54,330 --> 00:39:58,200 lot of separate security practices in prod, that the SRE 634 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,140 and the security folks tend to focus on the most I think moving 635 00:40:01,140 --> 00:40:05,100 in the direction of continuous security, integrating the pre 636 00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:09,210 prod and prod side of security. So that's what I see happening, 637 00:40:09,210 --> 00:40:12,090 more of an integrated set of practices is more end to end, 638 00:40:12,780 --> 00:40:17,310 where there's more collaboration that's more efficient, and how 639 00:40:17,310 --> 00:40:21,630 that would be served up to I think value stream management 640 00:40:21,630 --> 00:40:24,540 platforms are going to have a rise and importance because they 641 00:40:24,540 --> 00:40:27,390 have that layer, what I see a lot of people doing is they're 642 00:40:27,390 --> 00:40:30,930 trying to implement things at the CI CD level, but the CI CD 643 00:40:30,930 --> 00:40:34,140 level is only one level above that you have value stream 644 00:40:34,140 --> 00:40:36,450 management, and that's where it gets a little easier to 645 00:40:36,450 --> 00:40:40,170 orchestrate things at an end to end level. So that layer, 646 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,330 whether you call a value stream management ever you want to call 647 00:40:42,330 --> 00:40:47,970 it, I think it's going to become more important. continuous value 648 00:40:47,970 --> 00:40:51,510 stream management as a service where you know, ultimately, to 649 00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:53,850 be more efficient, you want these things to be available as 650 00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:57,270 integrated systems, and served up as a service rather than 651 00:40:57,270 --> 00:40:59,310 having to recreate them all the time for your different 652 00:40:59,310 --> 00:41:03,150 pipelines and streams. And obviously, you know, there's the 653 00:41:03,150 --> 00:41:07,980 rise of, I've seen more and more serious applications of, of AI 654 00:41:07,980 --> 00:41:10,710 and machine learning, especially in the continuous observability 655 00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:14,700 realm. I think that's going to become more prevalent. I've 656 00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:17,370 almost I've kind of detected, there's a tipping point going on 657 00:41:17,370 --> 00:41:22,200 there. Where before, there was a lot of trial trial projects, but 658 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,560 they're starting to become more serious with AI and ML 659 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,940 applications to things like DevOps, and SRE, especially in 660 00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:33,030 the, you know, monitoring and observability area, 661 00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:35,190 Eveline Oehrlich: We're seeing the same, we're seeing the same 662 00:41:35,190 --> 00:41:39,360 thing. So you're saying, just to summarize quickly, you're saying 663 00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:46,650 it is more of a holistic, I'll call it operating models, as 664 00:41:46,650 --> 00:41:49,350 many things are starting to work together, and there is more 665 00:41:49,350 --> 00:41:53,340 development and more continuation around this 666 00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:58,740 integrated way of doing things. That's great. Super Well, I 667 00:41:58,740 --> 00:42:02,490 appreciate your input. This was super, thanks so much. And 668 00:42:02,490 --> 00:42:05,940 again, that was more corn geek, who has done a lot of work in 669 00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:07,350 this space. Thanks, Mark. 670 00:42:07,620 --> 00:42:09,780 Mark Hornbeek: Thank you for having me here. I appreciate it. 671 00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:12,840 Eveline Oehrlich: This has been extremely educational. Thank you 672 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,740 all for sharing your thoughts and predictions. For our 673 00:42:16,740 --> 00:42:21,480 listeners, look for an upcoming blog from the DevOps Institute 674 00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:25,830 around predictions. Jane, Charlie, Helen and Mark, maybe 675 00:42:25,830 --> 00:42:28,110 we can make this a yearly prediction podcast around 676 00:42:28,110 --> 00:42:31,680 DevOps. I certainly would love to host you all again. Thank you 677 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:36,870 again. Humans of DevOps is produced by DevOps Institute. 678 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,530 Our audio production team includes Julia Papp and Brendan 679 00:42:40,530 --> 00:42:44,160 Leigh. I am DevOps human podcast executive producer 680 00:42:44,190 --> 00:42:47,760 evolutionarily. If you would like to join us on the podcast, 681 00:42:47,820 --> 00:42:52,620 please contact us at podcast at DevOps institute.com. Thank you 682 00:42:52,620 --> 00:42:54,510 again, and talk to you soon. 683 00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:58,650 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 684 00:42:58,650 --> 00:43:02,190 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 685 00:43:02,190 --> 00:43:05,520 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 686 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,000 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 687 00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:10,080 You belong