Ben 0:06
Hello, and welcome to Freelance Corner. I'm Ben and this is Orla.

Orla 0:09
And today we're speaking to Jaime Gill, an award winning freelancer who strives to make a social impact, and has created campaigns for global organisations, including UNICEF, startups and NGOs. He's also the winner of the Outstanding Freelancer award presented by IPSE. In this episode, he'll be speaking to us about his journey into freelancing, his work in Cambodia and the importance of awards, like the IPSE Freelancer awards. Hi, Jamie, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here.

Jaime Gill 0:38
Hey everyone. Yeah, great to be here.

Ben 0:40
Jaime, obviously, in that intro was a lot of things you have done. It'd be great for our listeners to understand how you got into freelancing and what your journey has been like so far?

Jaime Gill 0:49
From the very start of my career. Even as I was working in communications in a very commercial PR agency, I loved to write. That's one of the reasons why I was making communications anyway. So I did some music, journalism and travel journalism on the side. My journey from there, so I worked in commercial PR for a long time. And then at around the age of 30, I started to work for charities in the UK, quite large charities working for them as a press manager and a public affairs manager. Which I find very fulfilling. And then I moved to Cambodia, when I was about 36, I actually took a gap year, a very late gap year, travelled around the world, and came to Cambodia and absolutely loved the country, I could see that there were many challenges here. And I thought that my skills could hopefully do something to contribute to overcoming some of those challenges. But it wasn't a country which was defined by the challenges that faced whether that was the genocide it went through 40 years ago, or the challenges of being a developing country now. It's actually a very hopeful, very optimistic country. One, which is embracing lots of opportunities. And that also created lots of opportunities for me, frankly. So I began working here. And for quite a long time, I worked in house for some large independent NGOs, and then COVID. And that kind of changed a lot of things. One of the things I've been doing was a little bit of volunteer work for some smaller NGOs, which didn't have the funding to hire in a communications expert. And when COVID came, it was really obvious that they needed a lot more help. One of the NGOs is called Phare Ponleu Selpak, and they are an education and arts and culture NGO, and most of their income comes from ticket sales. But their circuses had to close because of COVID. So almost all of their income was wiped out, and a couple of other NGOs, which I had locked connections with and also in deep trouble with funding. And because I was in a full time job at the time, I just didn't have enough time to be able to support them. So I took the decision, which was quite difficult and quite risky, I suppose in retrospect, to try going freelance for the primary reason that it gives me flexibility in that I could hopefully earn enough income to survive through larger commercial clients and larger NGOs and development agencies, whilst also having the flexibility to provide free or very low cost services to these smaller NGOs. And it was quite scary, but luckily, it did pay off. So very glad that I took that decision. I'm very glad that all of the opportunities that created.

Ben 3:42
That sounds really brave. I mean, I can't imagine going to another country and set up a freelancing career don't know about you Orla.

Orla 3:48
Yeah, incredible, especially in a pandemic, you know, that is like super brave. And also, I think it's really commendable that you've taken the knowledge that you've acquired over your years in, you know, commercial comms, and you've applied it to supporting smaller charities, NGOs, organisations that really need that help with their communications.

Jaime Gill 4:11
That's really kind of you to say, it was a bit nerve wracking at the time. But I did have the safety net of having worked in Cambodia and locked for six years, having met a lot of people, and knowing that there were people who had seen my work and seen the results I could get, and we're likely to provide some business. So I knew I wasn't going to start off. I just didn't know if I was going to particularly thrive and to be fair, but did take a while to get to the point where I would say did begin to thrive.

Orla 4:44
And what do you think are the key kind of elements that have, propelled you to thrive? Why do you think that is?

Jaime Gill 4:52
Wow, that's very hard to answer without boasting or sounding arrogant. Well to be honest, let me say one thing. Boasting is actually a really important quality and a freelancer. And it's very hard for a lot of people to do. But you aren't hiding behind an organisation which can go out and brag without any embarrassment about its achievements, you having to do that for yourself. And that's a really hard thing to overcome the fear of boasting about yourself, I guess the fact that I had always worked in promotion, and marketing and PR, gave me a little bit of an advantage in that I knew that it was just really important to get out there and say what you're good at. So one of the things that helped me was just having an awareness of what my skills were, and being able to promote them without blushing too much. So that was one part of what helped me. Another key thing, which really got me going was using Upwork. And I think that platforms like that have certainly changed the game, when it comes to being able to freelance from very different parts of the world, they're very hard to break into. And I wouldn't ever underestimate that for anybody. I had 20 years of experience, I worked for some very big brands, but still getting started on Upwork. And gaining the feedback that you need to win business was extremely hard. And I had to play it very tactically. So initially, I was going for incredibly small jobs, just to build up my reputation and my ranking. And that's actually quite fun. I remember helping one South Korean student to proof read their CV, which was like a 20 minute job for $5. But it was nice, it was good to help him and it helped me to gain some ranking. So at that stage, one bit of advice I'd say to others, is that you may have to accept some jobs, which perhaps aren't paying you all that you're worth, just to get started. And then as you build your reputation, as you build your credibility, and your rankings, then you can start to charge more in line with what you're worth.

Ben 7:08
I just think it's crosses my mind is, obviously a lot of your work has not been in UK in recent years, is there been any big cultural differences for being a freelancer in Cambodia, compared to, maybe your early days doing some freelance journalism in the UK? Like, is there any sort of big ways that is different and what is expected of you?

Jaime Gill 7:29
I mean, the most obvious way in which working as a freelancer in two different countries is different is the bureaucracy and the administration of it. Even though I didn't earn a lot of my income through freelancing, I remember spending days grappling with the HMRC forms for freelancers back in the UK, and Cambodia has its own bureaucracy. So wherever you are, you do have to get to grips with what the local requirements are. And that's the same if you're just starting out in freelancing in the UK, get very familiar, fast with how the tax system works, whether that be what you can claim back and when your deadlines are. And that's also the same in a different country. So that's the really kind of practical and prosaic answer to that question. Culturally, although I was based in Cambodia, a lot of the work I did on at work was actually International. So to give a few examples, I was working with one guy selling stylish blue light blocking sunglasses in Poland, I was working with a very cool startup guy in San Francisco, I was working with some jewellery makers in Australia, several people in the UK. So I had to get used to lots of different cultural differences, and really down to the completely boring level of understanding the difference between American spelling and Australian spelling and British spelling, which are all different. Sounds a little bit blase, but the most important thing was to always keep a high quality of work. So never think perhaps, because maybe a country is a smaller country isn't as important on the geopolitical stage or isn't considered to be as advanced in terms of its economy. Never drop your standards, according to that. Always make sure that you're delivering the best possible work, no matter where the client is based.

Ben 9:32
I think that's a good point, I think, never let your standards slip over the matter who, what your client or where they're from. I think that's something which a lot of our listeners can sort of take to heart. I think getting more into sort of the work you're doing now. Is there any advice you'd give to someone who wants to get into humanitarian work and also work abroad as well?

Jaime Gill 9:54
I definitely highly recommend that people should pursue humanitarian work if that's something which interests them, but it is quite challenging. And it does take time to get into especially if you want to earn a good income through it, you may have to be prepared to do some volunteering at the start, because so many people want to do humanitarian work or work for charities or NGOs, you do need to do something which puts you out ahead of the competition. And I think that being prepared to volunteer and to use some of your skills on that basis will really help you. Before I started my work in the charity sector back in the UK, I'd already volunteered as a trustee and as an advisor on a smaller charity. And I think that really helped me when I decided to move full time and in house, it's definitely very fulfilling work. It's very varied. But some people I think, make the mistake of thinking that the humanitarian or the charitable sector isn't as fast paced or as advanced as the private sector. And that can be true in some cases, but it's often not. Often, it's very, very high paced, it's extremely competitive. And with the economic troubles, I think we're likely to face over the coming years, is going to be even more competitive with non-profits struggling to raise funds. So it's very, very dynamic work. The converse of that is that if you do have really strong and important skills from the private sector, they're going to be extremely valuable in the non-profit sector as well.

Orla 11:35
You just got me thinking about the kind of concept around the charity sector being not as fast paced as it actually is. Where do you think that notion kind of comes from?

Jaime Gill 11:46
I can certainly say that I had heard this before I moved into the sector, I think it may largely come from agencies of the kind, which I used to work in, where they pride themselves on juggling multiple clients and having to stay up to date with all of the latest technology. And I think, actually, they generally think the in house jobs are a bit more slow paced. And I think that definitely, there's a perception that the charity sector is just a little bit more old fashioned, and that perhaps people go into it, and get jobs because they are just caring people rather than really talented and skilled people. And I'm afraid to say that's not the case. In fact, the charity sector can be just as ruthless and focused on skills and productivity, and results as any private sector business. I essentially always wanted to travel, but never got the chance until I was in my 30s. And I finally decided just to take the plunge. So I spent about a year and a half travelling the world, I travelled from England to Australia without flying and it was a huge adventure. But I felt a bit guilty about just having this huge holiday. So I spent two months in Cambodia, volunteering, and it was just life changing for me, I never felt the power of the impact of the work I was doing as clearly as I did in Cambodia. And that's why when I finished my travels, I came back, what I would say is that you do need to do your research, I would suggest that if you were wanting to move or work abroad, you should actually do some travelling first and see if you're good at adjusting to other cultures. Because some people just don't, I think people believe that it will be exciting and it will be non-stop glamour and it can be challenging to work in different countries, it can be challenging to work in systems, which are different from your own. So I would definitely say that people should consider that. I definitely say that people should only come if they are prepared to really immerse themselves in a culture. There are a lot of people who come to other countries and they kind of form their own communities where they don't really connect with people locally. And that makes it much more difficult for them to do really relevant and effective work because they're not learning from the people who they're trying to help. So my big recommendation would be do some actual travelling just for the sake of travelling first and get a flavour for it. And if you really feel like you're ready to dive into another culture, go for it because there's definitely places where you can bring your skills and really benefit the area.

Ben 14:45
I think that's amazing. I think if you get that opportunity, why not take it or take the plunge? There is one thing that I think you know, it's a lot of talk about white saviours when they go abroad. I think Rory Stewart he did like a little walk around, I think Afghanistan, was accused of that and I think a few others have, is there a danger if you don't immerse yourself properly in the culture that you've just, you do have that label as a white saviour rather than actually doing some proper work to help people?

Jaime Gill 15:15
That's a really good point Ben. I think that even raising the topic of the white saviour is really important. It's an important discussion to have, it's definitely the case that if people come without getting to know the culture, without getting to know, local people, and what their needs are, and what their real requirements are, then they are just going to impose their idea of what a better society is. And that really is white saviour work. And if you're coming here, primarily, in order to get pictures on social media of you, doing wonderful work and showing people back home, how amazing you are, then you have to kind of question whether you're doing it for the right reasons. That said, I don't think that the fear of being called a white saviour should prevent people from travelling abroad if they have particular skills, which can really help. And one thing I would say to anybody considering it is to make sure that your skills really are needed, and that they are skills which local people can provide, make sure you work for a reputable organisation, make sure that you're not paying to work for that organisation, because the then does a very good chance that, in fact, it's not your work, which is benefiting, it's simply your money, which is benefiting. And if you do those things, then I think you can make a big contribution. But do immerse yourself in the culture while you're here. And make sure that you're always listening to people and what they really need, and not what you think that they need.

Orla 16:51
Yeah, that's really, really great advice, because it is such an important topic. And I think it's just so vital that you know, you're conscious of that, and also essentially authenticity as well, being authentic, going into what you're doing and showing up authentically. And you know, immersing yourself in that culture, like you said

Jaime Gill 17:12
When you do come to another country and do your work, it's really important that you do it in collaboration at every stage with the people from that country. If you don't, the chances of you just misunderstanding the culture, misunderstanding what the needs are, are very high. For example, I worked on a big project around domestic violence with an NGO called the slave Cambodia. And we did a big project, which was all about teaching Cambodian men that it was more honourable, not to indulge in domestic abuse, but all of the creative ideas from that came from my colleagues who were Cambodian, and who understood the culture. So it was called The Honourable Warrior campaign, because there's a local proverb, which is that the blood of Cambodians is the blood of honourable warriors. So that's a really good example of how it was only by working and listening to colleagues that we were able to do a really effective campaign.

Ben 18:11
It seems a bit weird to change track now. But I think as we said at the start, you won IPSE's Outstanding Freelancer award last year, for a lot of your work doing it in Cambodia and elsewhere. What was the impact of the awards and other awards in your career has it sort of highlighted the work you've been doing with these campaigns has it made you get more work, what's it actually done to you?

Jaime Gill 18:32
I was really delighted to get the IPSE award. I really thrilled a friend of mine nominated me, and I couldn't believe when I shortlisted, went to a very nerve racking interview. It was quite a vigorous process. And I was very, very sad when I couldn't be there on the day to actually collect it. Because I was still in Cambodia. It was a note at about three o'clock in the morning and I was actually jumping around in my living room with excitement, probably waking up my downstairs neighbour. The reason it helped a lot was partly because it helped me to shine a bit of a spotlight on some of the projects, which I was really passionate about, particularly a project I was working on the Phare Ponleu Selpak, which was the NGO I mentioned earlier. But also I knew that winning the award was likely to make it easier for me to continue doing what I was doing, which was balancing large, paid contracts with larger NGOs and organisations, but still have the freedom to work with smaller organisations. And that's exactly what has happened. There's no doubt about it, having the award, which is now at the top of my Upwork page. And very, very, very unsubtly broadcast on my own website boxclevercreative.com. It's definitely helped to bring in more business. I've had more inquiries and done more work over the last year than at any point in my life, I think. And it's had an incredibly positive effect.

Orla 20:05
What would you say to those freelancers that are wary about paying fees for award entries? Do you think it's worth it?

Jaime Gill 20:13
Some awards are very credible, and some are not. There are certainly some awards where you can pay an entry. And I think it almost automatically gets you recognition. But along with another 1000 organisations, and others, which are much more rigorous, I think that if there is an entry fee for a very credible award, then that can actually be a really good investment. It is a really good way of showing that you're not just offering good quality work. But that work has been vetted by experts and professionals, and that they backed it up. So I don't think there's anything wrong at all with an award fee. But just do make sure that it is a credible award, and that they do have rigour in that process.

Ben 20:55
For those listeners that, by the way, are wondering if IPSE's awards are paid or free, then they should know that it's all free. And I think we're going to have a link to the awards in the show notes. So anyone who wants to follow Jamie's example, can next year or then get a friend, also to apply as well.

Jaime Gill 21:17
Although I do think that there are some awards bodies, which are reputable and worth the award fee, I do think that when you see one, which isn't requesting an awards fee, and which clearly is just focused on highlighting positive work, that for me does have a bit of extra credibility and a bit, it's a bit more attractive. There is definitely an award industry. And that the those awards, which stand outside of that industry, and which are there really to champion good work, there's something a bit special about them, which is why this one is definitely a very special award for me.

Orla 21:52
So Jamie, as an award winning Freelancer yourself, do you have any top tips for any of our listeners that might be thinking about it and considering entering themselves for an award?

Jaime Gill 22:04
if you're about to write your first ever award entry, I'd say that the first step is to really familiarise yourself with what the requirements are. I think a lot of people don't spend enough time thinking about what the organisation is looking for, what qualities that thinks are important. And then you really do need to provide evidence, there'll be a lot of people who can say that they're doing great work. But you do need to show that it's true. And that can be statistical evidence, whether that's social media reach, or it could be simple income for your business. Or it could be a number of new contracts. Another kind of evidence is feedback, do call your clients and ask them to provide positive feedback on what you're doing to explain why you're adding value, and then use that shamelessly in an award entry. And just think about structure. And award entry is it's a story to tell a story about yourself. How did you come to be a freelancer? Why is this the right path for you? What are the challenges you faced? How have you overcome them? And what are you doing now, which is different from anybody else? And if you can tell that story well, and you've been doing great work, you've got a good chance, you may well be surprised at what happens.

Orla 23:19
Fab, love that.

Ben 23:22
Yeah, that's what we love to hear.

Orla 23:25
If you had to pick something that you found really inspiring throughout your freelancing career, what would it be and why?

Jaime Gill 23:34
I think one of the things which has really inspired me as a freelancer, particularly in my line of work, which is communications and writing, creativity, is just the power of a good idea. And it can be a little bit frightening that power actually, I remember I was talking to my client, who I've mentioned a few times Phare Ponleu Selpak and they do arts, entertainment and creativity. And they were trying to think of a way to fundraise because all of their circus shows closed down. They were discussing the idea of doing a gala. And I suggested the idea of maybe we could try and break a Guinness World Record. And my idea was really low key. I mean, I remember saying on the phone, this doesn't have to be a full circus for 24 hours. We can just do a circus for one hour. And then the rest of the time, we'll just have a couple of people juggling on stage. And we'll just fill in the time. Fast forward a year. And I travelled to Battambang to go and see how it's going and to be there for the day of the 24 hour circus. And they put on 32 full shows over 24 hours. So it was just this incredible experience where it was enormous. In all the frills, all of the acrobatics, circus shows, and it was just incredible to see how a small idea become this huge thing and this exciting event which galvanised 1000s of people to come. And the idea had been taken away from me by that point, it had just, my small idea becomes something much bigger, which also kind of goes back to what I said earlier, about being respectful of the culture and of letting other people go with whatever ideas you might have, then make them their own.

Ben 25:23
I think that's a really sort of inspiring, positive note to end on. I think sometimes freelancers think that their work is a circus, so it's good to know that you actually made a circus. So yeah, thank you, Jamie has been great having on the show.

Orla 25:39
Thanks so much, Jaime.

Jaime Gill 25:40
Thank you very much indeed.

Ben 25:45
That's it for this week's episode. Be able to find information on freelancing in the show notes below. And on the Freelance Corner website. You will also be able to find information on the IPSE Freelancer Awards on the IPSE website as well.

Orla 25:58
Do you have a question about freelancing that you want us to put through an expert? Just an email at content at freelance corner.co.uk We'd love to hear your queries.

Ben 26:09
If you enjoyed the show, make sure you follow us so you don't miss out on our next episode. You can find us on all major platforms and just let us know what we should quiz an expert on next time.