1 00:00:02,940 --> 00:00:05,820 Narrator: You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a 2 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:09,450 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,800 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework. 4 00:00:16,530 --> 00:00:18,360 Sheila Jagannathan: We had invested in the Open Learning 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,200 Campus many, many years before COVID and so we had the 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,080 infrastructure, we had the products, we had the services, 7 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:28,320 and we were already doing it. So it was very helpful for us to 8 00:00:28,410 --> 00:00:31,650 pivot to 100% digital. 9 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:37,240 Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to our Humans of DevOps podcast titled 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,290 Digital Learning and the Intersection of Technology Use 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,610 and Education in Emerging Countries. Today, we have with 12 00:00:45,610 --> 00:00:48,850 us a very esteemed thought leader in the topic of Digital 13 00:00:48,850 --> 00:00:53,560 Learning. Our special guest is Sheila Jagannathan and I hope 14 00:00:53,620 --> 00:00:57,100 Sheila I said your last name correctly. Let me tell you a 15 00:00:57,100 --> 00:01:03,760 little bit before we turn over to some questions about Sheila. 16 00:01:04,450 --> 00:01:07,750 So Sheila is head of Open Learning Campus at the World 17 00:01:07,750 --> 00:01:12,400 Bank in Washington, DC. She serves as the organization's 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,140 focal point on digital learning and issues at the intersection 19 00:01:17,140 --> 00:01:22,030 of technology use and education in emerging countries. She is an 20 00:01:22,030 --> 00:01:26,530 internationally recognized thought leader, advisor, author 21 00:01:26,590 --> 00:01:30,280 and a forward thinking Senior Education leader with over 35 22 00:01:30,310 --> 00:01:34,750 years of experience in leading capacity building, knowledge 23 00:01:34,750 --> 00:01:38,740 management, social learning and transformation change across 24 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:41,890 public and private organizations. She has been 25 00:01:41,890 --> 00:01:45,520 responsible for designing and implementing world class 26 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,240 solutions in challenging global environments, resulting in 27 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,150 performance and productivity improvements. 28 00:01:53,230 --> 00:01:57,160 Sheila also provides policy advice and technical assistance 29 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,970 to World Bank country level capacity building programs in 30 00:02:00,970 --> 00:02:06,040 East Asia, China, the Middle East, Africa and South East. Her 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:11,140 current areas of interest and activity include so many things, 32 00:02:11,140 --> 00:02:15,310 but here are some of them, Skilling and the fourth 33 00:02:15,310 --> 00:02:18,670 industrial revolution, corporate talent management, 34 00:02:18,790 --> 00:02:22,360 organizational development, multimodal and social learning 35 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:27,130 environments, immersive learning, like a rvr use of AI 36 00:02:27,130 --> 00:02:31,270 and learning big data analytics, learning experience platforms, 37 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:34,720 learning management systems and learning ecosystems. And I think 38 00:02:34,750 --> 00:02:40,120 that's how we got she loves attention because we are at the 39 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,930 DevOps Institute, of course, very interested in her what she 40 00:02:43,930 --> 00:02:48,010 has to say. She has written many articles on various peer 41 00:02:48,010 --> 00:02:50,740 reviewed publications and learning publications, and 42 00:02:50,740 --> 00:02:54,040 technology based learning, and on technology based learning and 43 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,540 many, many more articles. Again, welcome, Sheila, we're very 44 00:02:58,540 --> 00:03:04,510 honored to have you here with us on our podcast. How are you 45 00:03:04,510 --> 00:03:05,230 doing today? 46 00:03:05,990 --> 00:03:07,880 Sheila Jagannathan: I'm doing simply great. Thank you, 47 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,940 Eveline, for inviting me to the session. 48 00:04:05,850 --> 00:04:06,172 Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic. Again, I'm glad I know you have 49 00:04:06,180 --> 00:04:06,657 a very, very busy day. So let's get started on a few things, I 50 00:04:06,664 --> 00:04:07,125 want to do a little bit of an introduction. Because learning 51 00:04:07,133 --> 00:04:07,633 and upskilling. As you might not know, it's a central mission for 52 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:08,140 us at DevOps Institute and since the beginning, our vision has to 53 00:04:08,148 --> 00:04:08,555 really been empowering the people who power IT, and a 54 00:04:08,563 --> 00:04:09,032 little different from what you do. But again, at its core, it 55 00:04:09,039 --> 00:04:09,539 is about upskilling and sharing, and learning and re skilling our 56 00:04:09,547 --> 00:04:09,969 community. Now we do this through many offers practical 57 00:04:09,977 --> 00:04:10,361 knowledge, we have a professional network, we have 58 00:04:10,369 --> 00:04:10,800 certification programs, actionable research, which is my 59 00:04:10,807 --> 00:04:11,238 part, we do virtual and in person events, again, glad we 60 00:04:11,245 --> 00:04:11,714 can do in person event again. And we just recently launched a 61 00:04:11,722 --> 00:04:12,214 very exciting program, which we call skill up learning, or skill 62 00:04:12,222 --> 00:04:12,667 up it learning.We do know that our audience wants to learn 63 00:04:12,675 --> 00:04:13,159 digitally, which is again why I was so interested in talking to 64 00:04:13,167 --> 00:04:13,605 you. So let's get started on some questions. Before we go 65 00:04:13,613 --> 00:04:14,066 into more depth in terms of learning, I know most listeners 66 00:04:14,074 --> 00:04:14,535 will be familiar with a World Bank, but I'm not sure if I'll 67 00:04:14,543 --> 00:04:14,943 know what the mission of the World Bank is. and most 68 00:04:14,950 --> 00:04:15,396 importantly, what excites you about working there? Can you 69 00:04:15,404 --> 00:04:15,873 share a little bit more about what the World Bank does and we 70 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:16,050 your excitement there? 71 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,032 Sheila Jagannathan: Sure. Well, who are we? With 189 member 72 00:04:20,105 --> 00:04:24,892 countries staffed from more than 170 countries and offices in 130 73 00:04:24,966 --> 00:04:29,532 locations, the World Bank Group is a global unique partnership 74 00:04:29,605 --> 00:04:32,846 of the World Bank, the International Finance 75 00:04:32,919 --> 00:04:36,233 Corporation and other Institute's working for 76 00:04:36,307 --> 00:04:40,505 sustainable solution that reduce poverty and build shared 77 00:04:40,578 --> 00:04:44,776 prosperity in developing countries. So our mission can be 78 00:04:44,850 --> 00:04:49,121 concise into goals to end poverty by reducing the share of 79 00:04:49,195 --> 00:04:53,761 global population that lives in extreme poverty to just 3% and 80 00:04:53,834 --> 00:04:58,327 to promote shared prosperity, which is increasing the incomes 81 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:03,113 of the poorest 40% of the people in the world. So the World Bank 82 00:05:03,187 --> 00:05:07,606 Group is one of the largest sources of funding and knowledge 83 00:05:07,679 --> 00:05:11,877 for developing countries. As I said, the World Bank Group 84 00:05:11,951 --> 00:05:16,075 itself comprises of five institutions, one we call IBRD, 85 00:05:16,148 --> 00:05:20,641 which is the main one where I work which is the International 86 00:05:20,714 --> 00:05:24,912 Bank for Reconstruction and Development. And then we also 87 00:05:24,986 --> 00:05:28,742 have the International Development Association, the 88 00:05:28,815 --> 00:05:32,497 either the IFC, which is the International Finance 89 00:05:32,571 --> 00:05:36,769 Corporation and the private sector when and then you have 90 00:05:36,842 --> 00:05:41,114 the multilateral investment guarantee agency. And finally, 91 00:05:41,187 --> 00:05:45,680 the Center for settlement of investment disputes. So together 92 00:05:45,753 --> 00:05:49,877 these form, the World Bank, and the core values that are 93 00:05:49,951 --> 00:05:53,854 embedded in this entire institution and our staff and 94 00:05:53,928 --> 00:05:58,273 our client in working with our clients is impact integrity, 95 00:05:58,347 --> 00:06:02,250 respect, teamwork, and innovation. So what excites me 96 00:06:02,323 --> 00:06:06,963 about working in the World Bank, so it's been there for over 25 97 00:06:07,037 --> 00:06:11,676 years. It's a huge opportunity it represents to transform lives 98 00:06:11,750 --> 00:06:16,389 of individuals, moving away from poverty to embarking on a path 99 00:06:16,463 --> 00:06:20,661 to prosperity, changing lives and actually destination of 100 00:06:20,734 --> 00:06:25,006 individuals and society. We play a small role in this. Job 101 00:06:25,079 --> 00:06:29,498 creation is an immense global challenge. Education is at the 102 00:06:29,572 --> 00:06:33,622 center of building human capital. The latest World Bank 103 00:06:29,670 --> 00:06:49,075 Eveline Oehrlich: Beautiful, I am actually a vivid World Bank 104 00:06:33,696 --> 00:06:38,262 research, particularly after Xi COVID, shows that productivity 105 00:06:38,335 --> 00:06:42,828 of 56% of the world's children will be less than half of what 106 00:06:42,901 --> 00:06:47,246 it could have been if they enjoyed a complete education and 107 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,591 full health. So for me, what excites me is delivered well, 108 00:06:49,526 --> 00:07:18,409 research reader. I followed many of the reports, because I found 109 00:06:51,665 --> 00:06:55,789 education along with human capital, benefits individuals 110 00:06:55,863 --> 00:07:00,208 and societies for individuals education, raises self esteem 111 00:07:00,281 --> 00:07:04,995 and further furthers opportunity for employment and earnings. So 112 00:07:05,068 --> 00:07:09,487 this is what I enjoy. I live in Washington, DC, the nation's 113 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,905 capitol, also the headquarters of the World Bank Group. But 114 00:07:13,979 --> 00:07:17,367 there are several other influential actors and 115 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,638 organizations that work in international development here 116 00:07:18,860 --> 00:07:45,035 those fascinating, so your guys's work is fantastic. I did 117 00:07:21,712 --> 00:07:26,351 in DC, such as the USA ID, the International you know, the IDB, 118 00:07:26,425 --> 00:07:29,886 which works on the Latin American international 119 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,158 development issues. You have the Brookings Institute, the 120 00:07:34,231 --> 00:07:38,576 Carnegie Endowment for peace. So lots of interesting things 121 00:07:38,650 --> 00:07:42,774 happening in the world of international development here 122 00:07:42,848 --> 00:07:43,290 in DC. 123 00:07:45,486 --> 00:08:12,563 do some research also on the World Bank Open Learning Campus 124 00:08:13,014 --> 00:08:39,189 because that was which really intrigued me in this campus. 125 00:08:39,640 --> 00:09:07,620 Sounds fantastic. And I know you know a lot about it as you're 126 00:09:08,071 --> 00:09:33,795 heading that effort. Can you elaborate a bit on what does 127 00:09:34,246 --> 00:09:59,970 that World Bank Open Learning Campus include? What is it? 128 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,190 Sheila Jagannathan: and infrastructure. But I'll take a 129 00:10:02,190 --> 00:10:05,970 moment to say why did the World Bank create the Open Learning 130 00:10:05,970 --> 00:10:10,650 Campus, and what is its mission? Knowledge. In particular 131 00:10:10,650 --> 00:10:14,760 learning is key to development, solving development challenges, 132 00:10:14,940 --> 00:10:17,880 and meeting the twin goals that I mentioned to you about 133 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,780 eradicating poverty and sharing prosperity. So whether it's 134 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:25,830 helping countries recover from COVID, dealing with climate 135 00:10:25,830 --> 00:10:29,400 change rescaling youth to find jobs relevant for the fourth 136 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,090 industrial revolution, or even designing cost effective health 137 00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:36,930 systems. These are often characterized by multiple 138 00:10:36,990 --> 00:10:41,460 interdependent challenges and factors. mitigating this 139 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,260 requires change, including behavior change, that can only 140 00:10:46,260 --> 00:10:49,890 be harnessed through continuous learning, not just any learning, 141 00:10:50,130 --> 00:10:54,420 but learning continuously, by providing dynamic learning 142 00:10:54,420 --> 00:10:58,320 opportunities by the diverse audiences I mentioned earlier. 143 00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:01,470 So they can learn at their own pace, they can learn just in 144 00:11:01,470 --> 00:11:07,290 time and flexibly. So the OCLC really we call it O. LC equips 145 00:11:07,290 --> 00:11:10,140 development practitioners and individuals with the knowledge 146 00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:13,680 and capital capabilities to tackle the tough development 147 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:16,350 challenges and health, climate change. And other things I 148 00:11:16,350 --> 00:11:20,430 mentioned. Technology, as we all know, is changing the learning 149 00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:24,450 landscape, and changing the way we learn teach measured 150 00:11:24,450 --> 00:11:30,000 credentials, and so on. And so the ovlc really continue to stay 151 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,740 cutting edge on the technical ways of bringing learning to the 152 00:11:34,740 --> 00:11:39,120 busy practitioner. So in a very short time that the agency has 153 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,650 been in existence seven or eight years. On the client learning 154 00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:50,130 side, I think we have, I'm happy to say we flipped from doing 95% 155 00:11:50,130 --> 00:11:55,290 of our training used in person to now almost during COVID, 156 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:01,710 100%. Digital, and maybe over the long run, it will become 95% 157 00:12:01,710 --> 00:12:05,550 Digital with 5% blended, including in person. And 158 00:12:05,550 --> 00:12:10,620 similarly for the staff who were a little bit slower and and 159 00:12:10,620 --> 00:12:15,060 wanted the luxury of more in person COVID fix that, you know, 160 00:12:15,090 --> 00:12:19,530 during COVID, we will have 100% in person. And we're slowly 161 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:24,540 coming back to a sorry 100% virtual only coming back to some 162 00:12:24,540 --> 00:12:28,440 in person, but I don't think we will go back to two pre COVID 163 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:33,060 numbers. So in one sense, before I wrap up, this question, we'll 164 00:12:33,060 --> 00:12:37,290 see has enabled us to move from the World Bank to move from 165 00:12:37,290 --> 00:12:40,740 traditional ways of teaching and learning to more digital and 166 00:12:40,740 --> 00:12:44,730 blended and stay cutting edge. We've moved from face to face. 167 00:12:44,730 --> 00:12:47,670 As I said to digital and blended, we've moved from more 168 00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:52,170 conceptual learning to a solution focus and embedded in 169 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:56,700 the flow of work. We've moved from a purely lecture style, to 170 00:12:56,730 --> 00:13:01,290 interactive, participatory and experiential. And also in terms 171 00:13:01,290 --> 00:13:05,730 of learning analytics, we've moved from purely anecdotal to 172 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,260 evidence based so. And the last point I want to make is while 173 00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:15,240 the LLC is set up and managed by the World Bank, it thrives on 174 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,460 internal and external partnerships. 175 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,490 Sheila Jagannathan: So, you know, as I said before, we had 176 00:14:02,940 --> 00:14:04,322 Eveline Oehrlich: I have taken very close notes on those four 177 00:14:04,354 --> 00:14:06,027 things you mentioned, traditional to digital blended 178 00:14:06,059 --> 00:14:07,988 solution focus lecture style, and evidence based that's kind 179 00:14:06,490 --> 00:14:09,700 invested in the Open Learning Campus many, many years before 180 00:14:08,020 --> 00:14:10,078 of a goal. While these these are the aspirations we have for our 181 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:13,360 COVID. And so we had the infrastructure, we had the 182 00:14:10,111 --> 00:14:12,040 audience. Fabulous, but you mentioned two things I wanted to 183 00:14:12,072 --> 00:14:14,098 dive into a little bit further. The first one is COVID. So yes, 184 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,560 products, we had the services and so and we were already doing 185 00:14:14,130 --> 00:14:15,963 we have it has changed many things right. All of us have, 186 00:14:15,995 --> 00:14:17,925 have had some learning. But in terms of the learning itself, 187 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:22,150 it, so it was very helpful for us to pivot to 100%.Digital, 188 00:14:17,957 --> 00:14:19,886 how has it changed how people learn in post COVID? Tell me a 189 00:14:19,918 --> 00:14:21,944 little bit more about what you have found there and what you're 190 00:14:21,977 --> 00:14:22,170 doing. 191 00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:30,040 I'll tell you a little example. The UN and the World Bank in 192 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,130 partnership was going to have a gender conference in April, 193 00:14:33,460 --> 00:14:36,940 bringing 5000 People from all over the world. Remember the 194 00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:41,170 World Bank and most offices closed around March 20 for COVID 195 00:14:41,170 --> 00:14:45,130 and we didn't reopen in person work for two and a half years. 196 00:14:45,490 --> 00:14:48,790 But so what do we do? 5000 people are coming they're 197 00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:52,420 expecting blah, blah, blah, but we you know, so the decision was 198 00:14:52,420 --> 00:14:56,230 to make this completely online. And so between March 20 and we 199 00:14:56,230 --> 00:15:00,610 move the date from April to May, we were able to do the same 200 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,940 achieved a lot of the same thing. But the bigger point I 201 00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:06,880 wanted to mention in your question, what have we learned 202 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,590 from COVID? I think COVID has given us an opportunity to pause 203 00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:15,220 and reflect and think about how learning and development for all 204 00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:18,490 sectors and I know I've learned you're more interested in it, 205 00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:21,790 but we're more interested in solving development challenges, 206 00:15:21,790 --> 00:15:25,210 but at the end of the day, it is learning and so yeah, just want 207 00:15:25,210 --> 00:15:29,650 to tell you a few lessons. So I think the new normal when people 208 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,430 I mean, we're not already there with a blueprint for the next 25 209 00:15:33,460 --> 00:15:36,850 years, I think we're emerging are the COVID slowly and some 210 00:15:36,850 --> 00:15:40,450 lessons are emerging, then, and these are the lessons that these 211 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,860 imp the new normal is not just a question of virtual or in 212 00:15:44,860 --> 00:15:49,270 person. It is a context where learning should be blended 213 00:15:49,270 --> 00:15:53,050 because work is becoming blended, where both formal and 214 00:15:53,050 --> 00:15:56,650 informal and social and on the job, and synchronous and 215 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,540 asynchronous, are all part of the diverse mix of curricular 216 00:16:01,540 --> 00:16:06,550 delivery. It's not just about an algorithm. Now, we talked about 217 00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:09,790 AI based learning and so on, which is important. But it's not 218 00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:13,300 just about algorithm providing personalization at the expense 219 00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:17,590 of the learners self direction, but rather personalization as a 220 00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:21,910 consequence of understanding the importance of human capabilities 221 00:16:21,910 --> 00:16:26,470 and skills. And finally, the new normal needs to be agile in the 222 00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:30,610 face of any ambiguity, not just COVID. We need to balance best 223 00:16:30,610 --> 00:16:34,690 practices while ensuring that learning happens in VUCA 224 00:16:34,690 --> 00:16:39,460 settings. And so it's never just one thing. It has to be dynamic. 225 00:16:39,850 --> 00:16:44,410 And I think just a couple more points, the factors shaping the 226 00:16:44,410 --> 00:16:49,000 new normal or that the role of and l&d as definitely again, 227 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,570 we're always thinking about in person face to face, but that's 228 00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:57,040 not the entire focus, the new normal reimagines l&d to move 229 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:03,100 beyond content delivery, to more participatory, interactive, 230 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,420 immersive social learning. And it needs to consider the whole 231 00:17:07,420 --> 00:17:11,590 learner including the learning environment, and situate the 232 00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:17,080 learning in applied context. And so the point I'm making here is 233 00:17:17,170 --> 00:17:22,480 the l&d sector is needs to be transformed. And it is, in the 234 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,350 process of being that however, it's difficult because there are 235 00:17:26,350 --> 00:17:31,570 fixed mindsets. And so we have to work now to pull out the key 236 00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:36,580 lessons, as I mentioned a few just now to retain and get rid 237 00:17:36,610 --> 00:17:41,620 of the ones that are no longer relevant. The point is COVID is 238 00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:45,010 one factor that there were a whole lot of other factors that 239 00:17:45,010 --> 00:17:48,070 were coming to play that was causing this transformation, 240 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,130 digital transformation of learning, including the Fourth 241 00:17:51,130 --> 00:17:54,460 Industrial Revolution, the youth bulge in developing countries, 242 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,830 climate change, and so on. So I'll stop there. 243 00:17:59,830 --> 00:18:02,320 Narrator: Are you looking to get DevOps certified? Demonstrate 244 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,330 your DevOps knowledge and advance your career with a 245 00:18:04,330 --> 00:18:07,330 certification from DevOps Institute, get certified in 246 00:18:07,330 --> 00:18:11,110 DevOps Leader, SRE or DevSecOps, just to name a few, learn 247 00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:14,830 anywhere, anytime, the choice is yours. Choose to get certified 248 00:18:14,830 --> 00:18:18,310 through our vast partner network self study programs, or our new 249 00:18:18,310 --> 00:18:21,280 skillup elearning videos. The exams are developed in 250 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,830 collaboration with industry thought leaders, and subject 251 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:26,860 matter experts in the DevOps space, Learn more at DevOps 252 00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:28,780 institute.com/certifications. 253 00:18:32,170 --> 00:18:34,570 Eveline Oehrlich: I would absolutely agree with you saying 254 00:18:34,570 --> 00:18:38,560 that. The bottom line is how our IT folks how our folks in IT 255 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:44,620 learn and the learnings you guys have had, we can really directly 256 00:18:44,620 --> 00:18:47,770 apply that. So those are great lessons, I'll share with my co 257 00:18:47,770 --> 00:18:52,150 partner for sure I'm maker, listen to your podcast. I also 258 00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:55,120 actually ordered your book, and we'll get to that. But I want to 259 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:59,380 grab one more thing you said onto one more thing, AI learning 260 00:18:59,410 --> 00:19:02,080 because we have IT people who are listening, they're probably 261 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:07,030 going to go Oh, ai ai learning. Tell me a little bit about that. 262 00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:07,900 What is that? 263 00:19:08,740 --> 00:19:11,470 Sheila Jagannathan: So you know, in fact, I did my doctoral 264 00:19:11,470 --> 00:19:14,800 dissertation on AI based learning about 35 years ago at 265 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,370 Boston University. But, you know, people somehow think that 266 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,270 AI just came on to us drop from the sky about five years ago 267 00:19:22,270 --> 00:19:25,450 when I say that people are just a standard and think I made a 268 00:19:25,450 --> 00:19:28,750 mistake. But the bottom line is, of course, you know, it didn't 269 00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:31,510 come out of research institutions in the woodwork 270 00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:34,780 till about five, six years earlier when there was a larger 271 00:19:34,780 --> 00:19:38,800 recognition of AI for all sectors. But I'll talk 272 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,790 specifically about learning. I think AI is going to play a key 273 00:19:42,790 --> 00:19:48,340 role. And we need to pay close attention to this. In fact, you 274 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:53,080 know, AI is being touted as the new UI the new user interface 275 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,880 because you can use it for all phases of the learning cycle 276 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,900 from creating learningto facilitating learning to 277 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:06,640 evaluating learning and so one of the areas that a couple of 278 00:20:06,670 --> 00:20:09,130 I'll give you examples of a couple of areas we are 279 00:20:10,450 --> 00:20:14,440 exploring. One is in the area of, you know, we run these large 280 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,850 MOOCs and facilitated courses on climate and other things, all 281 00:20:18,850 --> 00:20:23,260 online. Remember, these are complex topics, and you cannot 282 00:20:23,260 --> 00:20:28,450 have it in a completely self paced mode. So the virtual 283 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,470 experts, world class experts guiding coaching and mentoring 284 00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:37,180 virtually behind the scenes. But here we have created AI based 285 00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:42,400 chatbots, or expert systems, we'll help the experts and you 286 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,920 know, an integer, one who's, who used to be the head of edX at 287 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,870 MIT, and Harvard is a good friend. And remember, his he 288 00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:55,690 first started this whole edX movement started with this 289 00:20:55,690 --> 00:21:01,480 course on AI or electrical engineering, where he had 30,000 290 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,970 students and you know, how do you manage them. So in those 291 00:21:03,970 --> 00:21:08,530 kinds of setups, the bots become very useful. Another example, 292 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,060 another small example is we use AI to create captions, and 293 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,780 indexing of videos and so on, because this is a very expensive 294 00:21:16,780 --> 00:21:21,970 and a human. Plus, the final example, which which, which will 295 00:21:21,970 --> 00:21:25,990 really change the shape of learning in the years to come, 296 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,310 is of course, adaptive learning, and the role AI plays. So this 297 00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:34,420 right now, most of our learning is one size fits all. So Sheila 298 00:21:34,420 --> 00:21:38,470 goes in there, whether she has any experience or not, everybody 299 00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:43,030 gets the same content, the same exercises, the same test, the 300 00:21:43,030 --> 00:21:48,790 same projects. So through AI, you can make a mental model of 301 00:21:48,790 --> 00:21:52,540 where the learner is through a bunch of questions, their own 302 00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:56,830 admission, or their own self assessment in the admission of, 303 00:21:57,220 --> 00:22:02,080 of where they are, you know, do you feel confident? Or how, how 304 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,590 good do you think you are plus some subjective assessment, the 305 00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:08,980 system understands and creates a mental model of the student. And 306 00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:12,160 then on forward, the content that shared the projects that 307 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,970 are shared, the examples that are shared, are very relevant to 308 00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:22,150 what the learner knows, and so on. We did a pilot did that. And 309 00:22:22,150 --> 00:22:26,170 there are some interesting lessons. But the thing is that I 310 00:22:26,170 --> 00:22:31,120 think, definitely AI is here today, we should start exploring 311 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,660 it. But you won't have the full potential till maybe two or 312 00:22:34,660 --> 00:22:38,500 three years later. Because even in the example I mentioned, it 313 00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:41,740 took a lot of effort to design this adaptive learning, you have 314 00:22:41,740 --> 00:22:45,430 to, you can't think of just one path, you have to think of many, 315 00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:46,630 many paths and so on. 316 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,580 Eveline Oehrlich: Fascinating, you gave us a great explanation 317 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:55,720 and I hope our listeners are excited about this just as much 318 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,790 as I am in AI 35 years ago, you are an expert in this have been 319 00:23:00,790 --> 00:23:04,810 an expert, even at the time when I just started my IT career, 320 00:23:04,810 --> 00:23:09,400 which is about 35 years ago. That's fantastic. Two more 321 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,040 questions. And I know you have to go to a meeting. So I want to 322 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,030 be sensitive to your day, because you are a very important 323 00:23:16,030 --> 00:23:19,690 person. And I hate to stand in the way of your development to 324 00:23:19,690 --> 00:23:22,960 more questions. My pleasure. Thank you so much. So you 325 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,170 mentioned a lot of things. Already, I'm gonna give you a 326 00:23:26,170 --> 00:23:29,260 crystal ball. And you already talked about AI based learning 327 00:23:29,260 --> 00:23:34,090 role of beyond the current content delivery, the whole 328 00:23:34,090 --> 00:23:38,110 learner, I love the Agile best practices to personalization, 329 00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:41,800 all of that, I'm gonna give you the crystal ball back and ask 330 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,880 you where do you think is the future of learning in some areas 331 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,460 where you have not mentioned, give me maybe two additional 332 00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:51,520 things where you think, where you're saying we have to explore 333 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,490 that, or we are already exploring that, be it best 334 00:23:54,490 --> 00:23:57,640 practices, learning labs, whatever. 335 00:23:58,230 --> 00:24:01,440 Sheila Jagannathan: So just a couple of thoughts. You know, 336 00:24:01,740 --> 00:24:05,310 I'm talking, I will address it both with tools and 337 00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:09,000 technologies, but approaches and so on. One thing I want to throw 338 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,840 in there is I'm part of a group that we're looking in Harvard 339 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,460 is, is working on this thing called the 60 year curriculum. I 340 00:24:17,460 --> 00:24:20,520 don't know if I have a chapter in my book on that. But 341 00:24:20,550 --> 00:24:25,200 basically, the idea is that the old traditional model of working 342 00:24:25,470 --> 00:24:28,740 for studying for 20 years school, college and working for 343 00:24:28,740 --> 00:24:32,580 about 40 years and then retiring in your mid 60s, that's gone. 344 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,910 Today, people are living longer, but most importantly World 345 00:24:35,910 --> 00:24:38,940 Economic Forum, as you know, says the shelf life of skills is 346 00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:43,110 4.5 years. When I was a conference at Microsoft on a 347 00:24:43,110 --> 00:24:47,610 panel recently, they were saying Silicon Valley folks are not 348 00:24:47,610 --> 00:24:50,970 hiring because you know Java, you know this or that. They're 349 00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:53,790 hiring for your learning agility. So the 60 year 350 00:24:53,790 --> 00:24:56,730 curriculum that some forward thinking universities are 351 00:24:56,730 --> 00:25:01,440 thinking about is that you you areYou learn for 60 years, 352 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,540 right? And but because the shelf life skills are so short, you 353 00:25:06,540 --> 00:25:10,110 don't stop at your master's degree or whatever, you keep 354 00:25:10,110 --> 00:25:13,380 coming in and out in and out in and out for short degree 355 00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:19,380 specializations, badges, micro learning, micro credentials, and 356 00:25:19,380 --> 00:25:23,310 so on. So that's one thing I thought I will share. The other 357 00:25:23,310 --> 00:25:27,900 thing is that, you know, we have to acknowledge that blended 358 00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:33,180 learning is here to stay. It's the new normal. And so earlier, 359 00:25:33,210 --> 00:25:37,980 when we started planning curriculars, as learning heads 360 00:25:37,980 --> 00:25:41,340 of learning, or curriculum developers, we would start with, 361 00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:44,400 we do all this face to face, and then let's tack on a little bit 362 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,640 of online. Now that's going to be flipped on its head moving 363 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,000 forward, we start with everything online, and then see 364 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,290 where we blend face to face and so on. The other thing is 365 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,160 evidence based pedagogy, you know, this is going to be 366 00:25:59,310 --> 00:26:03,240 critical, good design overcomes any digital or otherwise 367 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,320 learning fatigue, and gives you the motivation to learn. So we 368 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,470 need to learn from neuroscience principles, we need to learn 369 00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:15,420 different techniques to support learning that's active and I 370 00:26:15,420 --> 00:26:19,380 think connected learning is here to stay. If you study, look at 371 00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:23,430 recent studies in Stanford, it's when you work and learn with 372 00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:27,930 somebody else, you're 6% more effective. And so we need to 373 00:26:27,930 --> 00:26:33,360 have opportunities to do that. And finally, I want to say that 374 00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:36,600 data is the new currency of learning and development. And 375 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,170 given that as we go into blended and digital learning, there's a 376 00:26:40,170 --> 00:26:44,040 digital footprint of everything. And it's too important to 377 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,120 ignore. So we have to move away in the in the evaluation sphere 378 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,750 from just completion metrics, which are not as relevant, you 379 00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:57,300 know, but look, look at more impact and use learning and 380 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,990 analytics to collect, analyze and report on data about 381 00:27:00,990 --> 00:27:04,620 learners while they're learning, not just when they have 382 00:27:04,620 --> 00:27:09,990 completed and finally, I want to say that wellness is key to 383 00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:14,130 productive work and we need to keep that in mind and provide 384 00:27:14,130 --> 00:27:16,410 opportunities to address those challenges. 385 00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:20,100 Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent, fantastic. Now, I just ordered 386 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:22,800 your book technologies for sustainable development, how 387 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,100 upskilling data analysis and digital innovations foster 388 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:30,150 lifelong learning. I hope it will come through the wonderful 389 00:27:30,150 --> 00:27:33,330 provider to me this weekend, because I'm really excited about 390 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:39,750 learning about what you have in there. Now, is there. I think 391 00:27:39,780 --> 00:27:42,300 you have something about upskilling in there, because I 392 00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:46,380 read the I wouldn't say the cliff notes, but tell our 393 00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:50,250 listeners, because that's the message I would like to leave 394 00:27:50,250 --> 00:27:55,380 folks in terms of the importance of upskilling. Can you share a 395 00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:58,140 little bit about your message on importance of upskilling with 396 00:27:58,140 --> 00:27:58,500 us? 397 00:27:58,870 --> 00:28:00,670 Sheila Jagannathan: Absolutely. The entire book is about 398 00:28:00,670 --> 00:28:02,710 upskilling, reskilling skilling and I start the book with a 399 00:28:02,710 --> 00:28:03,850 quote by Alvin Toffler, which summarizes what I'm trying to 400 00:28:03,850 --> 00:28:05,020 say is that the illiterate of the 21st century is not someone 401 00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:16,120 who cannot read or write, but it's someone who cannot learn, 402 00:28:16,510 --> 00:28:20,680 unlearn, and relearn. So this book really is targeted because 403 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,220 my work has to do with emerging countries. This book, and I 404 00:28:24,220 --> 00:28:28,360 frequently as part of my job in the bank for 25 years would get 405 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:33,550 questions like even before COVID How do I move from a purely face 406 00:28:33,550 --> 00:28:37,450 to face brick and mortar to a Civil Service Training Institute 407 00:28:37,450 --> 00:28:40,120 are an Agricultural Training Institute and IT Training 408 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,240 Institute? How do we move from digital and blended so it is for 409 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:49,690 that audience. And so as as I said, it's Skills Development 410 00:28:49,690 --> 00:28:52,840 Council and so on. So the book is really how to get started to 411 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,340 navigate the choppy waters of market driven digitization, and 412 00:28:57,340 --> 00:29:02,830 how to incorporate what we know about some of the 21st century 413 00:29:02,830 --> 00:29:07,600 technology, pedagogy, the future of work need and how to 414 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,780 transform learning how to evaluate learning how to use 415 00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:15,010 partnerships to build your online academy, and so on. So I 416 00:29:15,010 --> 00:29:19,540 have about 27 chapters, five of them written by me, but also 417 00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:26,440 through influential thinkers and leaders in the space. So it's, I 418 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:32,200 think, skills is going to be the currency of the future and how 419 00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:35,980 quickly an unlearning is also very important because that can 420 00:29:35,980 --> 00:29:41,350 some times blocks barriers to if somebody is working in a purely 421 00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:44,860 traditional automotive industry, they need to really unlearn 422 00:29:44,860 --> 00:29:49,300 those skills to be prepared for self driving cars and so that's 423 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:55,540 the kind of analogy that we need to look at to how to prepare all 424 00:29:55,540 --> 00:30:01,540 people to take advantage of the new jobs.I read I love that 425 00:30:01,570 --> 00:30:05,200 skills is the currency of the future that every CIO, every 426 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,340 leader in it, who is listening here, needs to put that right on 427 00:30:09,340 --> 00:30:13,930 top of their desk to fund in short as happening. She likes 428 00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:17,530 been a absolute pleasure listening to you getting some 429 00:30:17,530 --> 00:30:21,460 insights, some great guidance, some great, some great things. 430 00:30:21,490 --> 00:30:24,520 This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time 431 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,000 out of your day. I have one little question, what's your 432 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,540 favorite weekend activity in DC or wherever you go on the 433 00:30:31,540 --> 00:30:40,330 weekend? Well, you know, now, the weather is so nice. But most 434 00:30:40,330 --> 00:30:43,930 importantly, we have the color change, you know, we have almost 435 00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:48,820 every color in the rainbow. Of course, all around us. It's a 436 00:30:48,820 --> 00:30:54,820 special time of the year. So we like to, you know, do that. But 437 00:30:54,850 --> 00:31:01,810 also, you know, I like to read catch up on reading, working on 438 00:30:58,350 --> 00:31:03,782 Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic. I'll look for that. I still will 439 00:31:01,810 --> 00:31:06,610 another book that's on AI in education. And lastly, I have 440 00:31:03,909 --> 00:31:11,236 look for it because I am a vegetarian, not all the time. I 441 00:31:06,610 --> 00:31:09,910 this dream of writing a vegetarian cookbook. But the 442 00:31:09,910 --> 00:31:12,910 difference unique of this cookbook is it's often 443 00:31:11,363 --> 00:31:19,449 sometimes step aside, but I look for that. Fantastic. Thank you. 444 00:31:12,910 --> 00:31:18,700 international flavor from all the very unique and not very far 445 00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:22,210 up countries in the world which I have visited through work or 446 00:31:19,575 --> 00:31:26,650 We have been with Sheila Jaganathan and head of the Open 447 00:31:22,210 --> 00:31:26,170 otherwise and have made friends and so it this book would be a 448 00:31:26,170 --> 00:31:31,420 compilation of cooking from their homes. But it'll have a 449 00:31:26,776 --> 00:31:34,357 Learning Campus at the World Bank in Washington, DC. Sheila, 450 00:31:31,420 --> 00:31:36,280 veggie it'll purely have vegetarian focus, which is who I 451 00:31:34,483 --> 00:31:41,811 thank you again so much for joining me today on the Humans 452 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:36,550 am 453 00:31:37,050 --> 00:32:04,740 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Humans of 454 00:31:41,937 --> 00:31:48,634 of DevOps. Humans of DevOps is produced by the DevOps 455 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:56,340 Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia Papp and 456 00:31:56,467 --> 00:32:03,037 Brendan Lay. I am Human of DevOps executive producer 457 00:32:03,163 --> 00:32:10,743 Eveline Oehrlich. If you would like to join us on a podcast, 458 00:32:10,870 --> 00:32:18,071 please contact us at podcast at DevOps institute.com. I'm 459 00:32:11,130 --> 00:32:30,360 DevOps Podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 460 00:32:18,198 --> 00:32:22,620 Eveline Oehrlich. Talk to you soon. 461 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,720 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 462 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,200 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 463 00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:38,280 You belong.