[Music]
Hello everyone and Welcome to another
episode of Selling Greenville your
favorite real estate podcast here in
lovely Greenville South Carolina I'm
your host as always Stan McCune realtor
right here in the upstate of South
Carolina and you can find all of my
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I'd really appreciate that this is
show
150 which kind of blows my mind that
I've done 150 episodes of the show
it's it's been crazy it's it's
been a fun time I'm I'm glad and for the
opportunity I've had to keep doing this
and it's just every time we hit a
milestone like this I'm just grateful
again for this opportunity and as
well for you guys I'm I'm really
grateful for you guys my listeners
you encourage me to keep this going you
give me ideas for for episodes and
listen I just appreciate all of that and
for those of you that have been clients
I appreciate you guys even more and
hopefully some of you that haven't yet
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clients in the future I appreciate you
guys and everyone in between anyone
that's listening to this so today um I
want to talk about this is just a little
bit random but it's just something that
um I've been mulling over in my head is
as you guys that listened to the show
quite a bit know I moved recently from
Greer from a production built
neighborhood known as Chartwell Estates
um to a basically not a subdivision um
actually to an older home that had
already been renovated um I got myself
a little bit of acreage um I got
out of an HOA all of that some things
that that my family and I decided was
what we needed for the stage of life
that we're in right now
and in moving I I really experienced a
lot of different things but specifically
when I was at Chartwell Estates I was in
that neighborhood for three years um
great neighborhood and and I really
enjoyed my time there um in those three
years I really found something
fascinating about the dynamic between
Chartwell Estates and another
neighborhood across the street from it
known as shelburn Farms
um now the reason why I find this a
dynamic between these two neighborhoods
interesting is because they were both
built roughly around the same time
they are both production built
neighborhoods both at similar price
points with similar Builders not the
same Builders but similar Builders
similar type of
construction and kind of targeting the
same types of of potential home
buyers when they were built at the end
of the day very similar finishes similar
looks all all of that kind of stuff um
but well and before I get into that I
should just clarify one thing so
obviously I know these neighborhoods
well I I lived in one of them I lived in
Chartwell Estates sorry my my phone
just went off just started talking about
something I don't know what that was um
I lived in Chartwell Estates
obviously for for several years um I was
on the HOA board at Chartwell for a
time um and and actually this kind of an
interesting factoid I have been one of
the realtors in the two most
expensive sales that have ever
happened in Chartwell Estates most
recently I listed and sold my home
just a few months ago which was the most
expensive home ever sold in either
Chartwell Estates or shelburn farms and
quite frankly it's not even close it was
by a wide margin
um now when I lived in Chartwell I would
often go across the street and take
walks in shelburn farms um and and some
of my best friends my and my wife and my
kids best friends they live over there
and we've spent a ton of time over there
actually um church that I used to go to
our small group used to meet at their
house um so we would go to shelburn
Farms even before we lived in Chartwell
States like every week and so and so our
kids have been over there at their pool
in their playground all that kind of
stuff and so we've gotten to know even
that neighborhood through a a variety of
means not as closely as chart World
Estates obviously um but but closely
enough now on a surface level these
neighborhoods look nearly the same homes
ranging from 10 to 20ish years old um in
the exact same area of Greer like I said
these neighborhoods are right across the
street from each other on Gib shols Road
um same school district um they had like
I said similar Builders for a good
portion of homes in in both
neighborhoods they both have a pool
they both have common areas they both
have sidewalks they both have an
HOA that's about the same price um but
that is where the similarities end um
charwell Estates like most neighborhoods
had multiple phases of development you
you'll see sometimes when you drive by a
subdivision it's going up it'll say say
you know phase three blah blah blah and
and then it'll invariably say pric is
starting in the low 20000s but that sign
is like 5 years old and actually prices
are now in the mid 300s for the cheapest
home so I I get questions about that
sometimes isn't that false advertising
it's like no well I think technically
it's just an old sign they can get away
with it um but um anyway it's not
uncommon for neighborhoods to have
multiple phases of development all that
means is that they opening up one you
know one area of the neighborhood
developing that once they sell enough of
that part of the neighborhood then they
open up another part of the neighborhood
we'll develop that sell that then
they'll and then it just keeps going and
then they just keep opening up
various parts of the neighborhood and
those are all just different phases
what's unique about Chartwell Estates is
that among these different phases there
were at least four different builders
that built in the neighborhood um and to
my knowledge I I don't think that was
the case at all at shelburn farms I
believe all of shelburn farms was built
by Ryan Holmes um I'm not aware that
there was a second developer at any
point in shelburn farms but in Chartwell
Estates there was a variety of Builders
um the the two biggest ones were sepa
and SK Builders I I believe also that
um that crown or and perhaps even
lenar was in there and then there was
also and I don't know who built these
but there are some almost like
stately looking houses right when you
come into the community that have been
converted into different things
including the clubhouse the clubhouse
was actually originally going to be a
single family home there was a builder
that had an idea for for making it a
really expensive neighborhood but then
that Builder the way I understand it
ran out of money and they only Built
three homes and and then had to abandon
so long story short you've got one
neighborhood Chartwell Estates that
looks very different when you actually
pay attention than this other
neighborhood shelburn Farms that was all
built by the same Builder Chartwell
Estates has just and again if you
look at it on a superficial level you
won't notice it but if you look closely
you drive around you'll see oh these
homes on this side of the neighborhood
look different than on this side of the
neighborhood um you'll see as well that
in shelburn farms it's almost
exclusively twostory homes that is the
vast majority of the homes in that
neighborhood whereas Chartwell Estates
has a a huge variety there are two-story
homes not not actually a ton of them but
there are some two-story homes there are
basement homes in Chartwell Estates um
and there's a lot of ranches just single
story homes
um I like I said I don't know if there
are any ranches in shelburn farms there
probably are um but the vast majority
are going to be twostory in that
neighborhood um charwell Estates has a
town home section so there's a whole row
um actually a few rows of just Town
Homes shelburn Farms does not have that
um in Chartwell Estates and again this
is because of all these different
developers that came through here and
did a lot of different things and there
wasn't a clear unified plan for how to
develop this neighborhood um the
sidewalks in Chartwell estate are a bit
choppy and kind of nonsensical like you
don't it doesn't make a whole lot of
sense like when a Sidewalk Ends or when
it begins um there are you know
various like easements that cut up the
sidewalks just not great sidewalks in
that neighborhood as a whole whereas
shelburn Farms having that one developer
the sidewalks are fantastic I mean it's
a great neighborhood to walk in I
already referenced that I would go
across the street and Gib Sholes road is
not a Pleasant Street to walk across um
but I would do that just so that I could
get to to those really nice s walks
there in in shelburn farms um both
neighborhoods have a community Pond but
the Chartwell Estates community Pond is
pretty difficult to access without
trespassing and this was a big Bugaboo
for some of the people there that they
would have people kind of cutting
through their yard in order to access
the community Pond um on the flip side
shelburn Farm also has a pond but it's
extremely accessible viewable from a
large portion of the neighborhood and
it's just right there in in the middle
common area like there is no trespassing
involved you don't have to cut through
anyone's yards um or even come close to
anyone's yard in order to to get to that
pond um similarly the common areas of
chart Ro Estates are nearly non-existent
um they developed that neighborhood as
much as they possibly could and the main
section that wasn't developable they
still took all the trees down and and
then he even sold it to someone who
doesn't keep up with the Landscaping
which is very frustrating um I when I
was on the HOA board there was a
discussion about about purchasing that
land back and the person was willing to
sell it back to the community for the
price that he bought it for and um the
HOA president refused and said and
and he basically had a bunch of Yes Men
on on the board and so whatever he said
was just done um and he basically
said no he he has not he can't develop
it it's not worth anything to him he
wants us to buy it it's going to be
Pennies on the dollar from what he
bought it for um so in instead what
we have is just an overgrown what could
be a common area but instead it's
actually private property so you can't
go on it um so it's neither developable
it's also not usable as a common area
whereas shelburn Farms on the other hand
um when Ryan Holmes went in there the
middle portion of the neighborhood they
left all the trees up um and and they
you know put a retention pond in in
there and it kind of forms the central
point of the community and it's just
gives it a more attractive look um and
there are Trails back in there I've
never done any of the trails but there
are some Trails into the woods um and
it's just something just an a nice
little added bonus for the neighborhood
um shelburn Farm also in contrast to
Chartwell has has nice little touches
like dog poop bag dispensers near the
sidewalks metal benches by the pond Etc
things that chart will States doesn't
have okay so I've just listed off a lot
of key differences between these two
neighborhoods and you're probably
thinking well shelburn Farm sounds a lot
nicer than Chartwell right yes from a
neighborhood standpoint that is a
logical conclusion to come to but
between the two neighborhoods by far the
nicer homes are in Chartwell Estates
because Chartwell had the Final Phase
completed by SK Builders which in my
opinion is one of the better among the
costeffective production Builders SK is
one of the better ones um and I I'm I'm
not going to say anything negative about
Ryan Holmes on here but I would prefer
SK Builders generally speaking they do
better touches on their homes 30-year
roofs typically as opposed to 20-year
roofs granite countertops as opposed to
laminate countertops Hardwoods um and
nicer carpet as opposed to you know
laminate type of floor surfaces nice
crown mold Ming as opposed to no
molding um just all of these things they
just do they just make a a good home um
and Ryan Holmes is really just a budget
type of developer that that is their
Niche um SK is is Just A step above that
um so here's where I find this all
interesting and this is where I'm going
with all of this we have one Community
shelburn
farms in and in the same area as
Chartwell Estates with a nicer common
area and Community amenities generally
larger homes CU a lot of those SK homes
are ranches and they're and they're
smaller um and then you have a community
across the street that was built
around the same time at least
development started the first phase was
around the same time with homes that
were built nicer in general um and those
nicer homes tended to be more in the
final phases so they are also newer than
the homes in shelburn farms um and so
what ends up being more important to
people is it the home or is it the
neighborhood and from my time being in
Chartwell I felt like something changed
in terms of people's perceptions of
these two neighborhoods and and part of
this isn't just a gut feeling from like
hearing people talk at the pool some of
this is just as I'm monitoring I look at
every home that comes on the market in
Greenville MLS every day and some of
this is as I see homes coming for sale
it's like it it felt like something
changed where like chart wall Estates
was consistently more expensive than
shelburn
farms for a a good stretch there and
then something flipped and so I decided
you know what this is an interesting
possibility let's go back and let's
track over the past decade or so what
exactly has happened so I went back to
2010 to look at what these neighborhoods
sold for on average technically not
average but looking at medians um
obviously I took out the town homes
because that's kind of a confounding
type of of data piece um so I only
looked at single family detached homes
and I looked in
2010 at both neighborhoods and lo and
behold the numbers are almost identical
let me pull these numbers up here 2010
shelburn Farms median list price was
$4,900 so basically
$155,000 list price and the median sold
price was
150,000 um on the flip side chart well
Estates the median list price was
147,00 75 and the median sold price was
147,00 so we're talking about the sold
price the the median sold price between
these two communities was different by
basically
$2,500 almost identical a
1.67% difference the price per square
foot also almost identical and this is
an important measure because like I said
um generally speaking Chartwell is going
to have smaller homes in shelburn now
there's one big exception and that's
actually the largest homes out of all of
them between the two are in Chartwell
Estates those basement homes but um
generally speaking on average the homes
in shelburn are larger than homes in
Chartwell so we need to look at the
price per square foot um the price per
square foot in shelburn was
$771 and in Chartwell it was
$782 again that's negligible that's
basically the same um and let me pause
for one second and just say this I I've
mentioned this before but a bear is
repeating when we look at the price per
square foot homes that are smaller in
neighborhoods the smaller homes tend to
have a larger price per square foot
and there's a very simple reason for
that and that's that ultimately a home
or a neighborhood will command a
certain value regardless of the size of
the home if it has three bedrooms and it
has two bathrooms it's just not going to
sell below a certain price point it
doesn't matter if it's 1100 square ft
or, 1300 Square ft it's it's there's
going to be a bottom and usually that
bottom is not as great of a difference
there's not as great of a difference
between where that bottom is versus
you know where the price would be if the
home were slightly larger so what we see
is typically in in a neighborhood the
the smallest homes have a higher price
per square foot number than the larger
homes that's a very commonplace thing
that we see so we need to keep that in
mind so to account for that what I then
also did was I said well let's just look
at the homes that are between 1400 and
2,00 square F feet or sorry I I did 1400
to 2200 square F feet because I wanted
to take out those
like, to to 1,300 square foot homes
because um shelburn Farms just doesn't
have very many homes that size so I
wanted to to see what the difference was
there shelburn farms in 2010 those
homes it was the same price again
basically all shelburn Farms homes are
going to be between 1,400 and 2200 ft it
was
$150,000 was the median for Chartwell it
was
$145,000 $200 so Chartwell a little
bit cheaper than shelburn farms in
2010 now um I would be remiss if I
didn't mention that Chartwell estate
still had not finished Construction in
20 10 there were still homes being built
it still hadn't finished I don't even
know if it had entered the Final Phase
yet I'd have to do a lot of research to
figure that out it's not easy to to
figure that out um either they hadn't
started the Final Phase yet or they were
in the Final Phase and it hadn't been
completed yet and so we still have
actually a couple more years of new
construction happening in Chartwell
Estates before that neighborhood is
completely phased out and so um that's a
really important consideration when
we're looking at that that that's going
to have a direct impact on these numbers
so let's Jump Ahead 5 years when all
construction is complete between both
neighborhoods um shelburn Farm now at
this point starts to pull away a little
bit the median list price was 100
basically 180,000 for shelburn Farms as
opposed to Chartwell was 170,000 that's
a a 5 a half% difference the median sold
price in shelburn was1
177,000 in Chartwell it was
675 also a five a little more than a 5%
difference um the price per square foot
again chart wall with the smaller homes
has a slightly higher price per square
foot of of
$95.95 shelburn was
$929 um so Chartwell has the edge there
by
6.25% but then when you look at homes
between where we have the biggest Gap
homes that are between 1,400 and 2200
square ft shelburn Farms on average
sold those for
175,00 and Chartwell for
160,000 um and so I draw a few few
conclusions for that first off we have
some moderate moderate price gains
happening remember that we're still in
between 2010 and 2015 still pulling out
of the Great Recession prices from 2010
through 2012 basically didn't go up and
and so if it sound if it sounds kind of
crazy that the average price in shelburn
farms in 5 years went from 150,000 to
177,000 um that that's not very much
well it it's not very much in comparison
to what we've seen more recently but
when you think about the dynamic that we
were still we still had all of this
economic stagnation particularly in the
housing market um that's that helps to
explain what was going on there but now
we're starting to see
the the median sold price went from
being shelburn being only
1.67% different to now it's
5.34% greater than Chartwell Estates and
so advantage to Neighborhood versus home
quality so far 2015 all right let's Jump
Ahead another 5 years and I'm trying not
to get to data heavy here so just
bear with me this is going
somewhere but if we jump ahead another 5
years to 2020 something very interesting
happens and that is that the trend
reverses now the median list price in
shelburn farms has now jumped up to to
210,000 but in Chartwell it's 235,000
now Chartwell is a has completely
reversed the script remember it was
behind F basically 5 a half% in 2015 and
2020 it's now TW basically 12% higher
list price than shelburn farms and the
sold price is
8.22% higher than shelburn Farms which
sold for um actually above what it was
listed for it sold for
213,000 as the median and the
Chartwell median was
23,500 the price per square foot again
now Chartwell extends to a 12%
difference from 100 chart wall was
118,000 sorry
$118.2 per square foot shelburn Farms
was
$556 per square foot um and then if we
look at the again that between 1,400 to
2200t range homes just to to try to keep
things as equal as possible between
these two neighborhoods there's even a
bigger Gap um Chartwell estate sold
those homes on average for
227,00 and shelburn Farms was at
196,50 so that's a
15.63% difference um so in 2020
Chartwell was dominating all of these
numbers versus shelburn Farms after
shelburn Farms had had been
moderately winning in these categories
for for all of these years so what was
happening all right I've got some
theories here um in 2020 we now have
shelburn Farms approaching as a
community about 20 years old now for
production Built Homes with Builder
grade types of finishes this is a bad
time once they reach the age of 20 years
old it's a bad time for several reasons
um I've already alluded to many of these
homes when they're built they have by
like a Ryan Holmes type of Builder they
have 20e roofs so guess what 20 years
later if they have not replaced those
roofs now those roofs are at the end of
their lifespans well what about other
big things AC units water heaters and
kitchen appliances those all are well
past their normal lifespan at the
20-year Mark guess what a lot of people
are trying to hang on for dear life
trying not to have to replace that AC
unit trying not to have to replace that
water heater maybe they have you know
replaced some of the elements in the
water heater but it's rusted out it's
it's not doing
well and and and and so you know
these homes come on the market and
people see ooh all these things all
these big ticket items really are
needing to be replaced are or are close
to needing to be replaced um
Additionally you consider the the
interior elements of a builder grade
home a lot of things are going to be
laminate you're going to have laminate
flooring you're going to have laminate
countertops in the kitchen maybe even in
the bathrooms um you know a lot of
situations where flooring and and
countertops and whatnot are just going
to have a tremendous amount of wear and
tear you're going to have cheap windows
that after 20 years cheap Windows just
really start to fail um honestly it
starts happening sooner than that um so
all of these Builder grade things that
would have been utilized in this
neighborhood they're they're just going
to start falling apart and you know that
happens well before the the that 20-year
marker but just once these homes are
starting to be sold around that time
period um all of these things add up and
it and it hurts the resale value of
these homes if they have not been
updated and even if they have been
updated you consider that all the homes
in the neighborhood that haven't that
have sold are now hurting the homes that
have been updated so there's just
there's a lot of factors when it comes
to all of
this now um remember in 20120 Chartwell
still has some homes that are less than
10 years old because the way I
understand it Chartwell can finished
finally finished building in 2012 so in
2020 there are still some homes that are
less than 10 years old and and many
of the homes in this community are going
to have 30-year roofs granite
countertops nicer flooring all of these
things and so in spite of the nicer
neighborhood Dynamics over at shelburn
shelburn farms the we had this other
Dynamic going on in 2020 where that
neighborhood had kind of reached you
know the the middle-aged the the I don't
know what you want to call it the crisis
point of production Built Homes that
happens when they're around that
20-year Mark that they tend to that
it didn't go down in value obviously we
still saw a value increase but in com in
contrast to another neighborhood in this
case Chartwell Estates that had homes
that were newer um it it hurt shelburn
farms in
comparison however since covid Community
amenities have been really really
important to a lot of people and as I
said earlier this is where shelburn
Farms really outperforms chart Ro
Estates and so a fascinating thing
happens when we look at 2022 sales and
so that's what I did I I looked at what
happened the past year not only did
shelburn Farms recover but it
outperformed Chartwell Estates more than
it had at any other time with the only
exception being price per square foot um
but even there it pulled the price per
square foot substantially closer so
here's what happened in
2022 the median list price in shelburn
farms jumped all the way to
$328,000
$328,000 it was
210,000 in on average or median in 2020
it jumped all the way to 328,000 in 2022
charwell Estates on the other hand was
at
269,000 massive difference almost an 18
% difference with shelburn Farms ahead
the median sold price at shelburn
323,000 500 just a tick below what the
list price was Chartwell actually sold
for more than list price at
272,000 but that's still a a
15.78% difference in favor of shelburn
farms the price per square foot like I
said Chartwell was ahead but it was only
ahead 7.21% remember it was ahead 12% in
2020 so even that Gap narrowed
um with the numbers being 162 48
per square foot for shelburn farms and
Chartwell was
$174.99 so um so even that Gap chart
wall is always going to beat unless
something weird happens I think will
always beat shelburn Farms on price per
square foot simply because of having
those smaller ranch homes um but even
that Gap got closed and then if you want
to look at that between 1,400 to 2200 ft
range in order to to keep things as
fair and equal as possible shelburn
Farms still ahead by 13% It was on
average
$36,000 for the median sale not on
average for the median sale and
Chartwell was
275,000 so um really a a very
interesting turn of events that we had
that happened in just a 2-year period of
time and at the end of the day here is
my conclusion illusion in our current
housing climate homes and communities
with good amenities and laid out in a
cohesive way in other words in the
neighborhood the homes are laid out in a
cohesive way they have good amenities
it's a good neighborhood to run in it's
a good neighborhood to walk in it's a
good neighborhood to have a dog in to
have kids all of those types of things
they punch way above their weight in
comparison to homes and communities that
don't have those things um and what that
means among other things is that having
a good HOA board is more important now
than ever having a good HOA board that
knows how to guide a community and to
use Community funds is super duper
important um but
also a big conclusion that I have is be
beyond all of that is we do need to be
more aware when we're building in
production built neighborhoods of of
that 20e marker that is a really
important marker um if you're if you
don't intend to update your home over
the years um you probably need to
consider selling before you get close
to that 20-year marker for a production
built home now if it's different I think
if you do intend to upgrade your home
but then you have to remember and this
is the big deal in production built
neighborhoods where all the homes are
the same that you don't over improve
your home because just like I said that
there is a floor whereby in these
neighborhoods homes W will not sell
below that floor even if they're small
there's always a ceiling whereby homes
won't sell above that ceiling and at the
very least appraisers will keep that
ceiling in check they will make sure
that homes do not exceed a certain price
point um and and it doesn't matter
whether you put in the nicest granite in
the world it doesn't matter whether you
put in the most expensive hard hardwood
floors in the world
people are going to still treat your
home like a production built home at the
end of the day even with those types of
updates that you've done and so when
we're looking at
neighborhoods there are different things
to keep in mind in terms of where values
will go over the years but I think one
thing we need to give more consideration
to is what the neighborhood as a whole
is doing is is it is the neighborhood as
a whole going in the right direction and
I'm not just talking about from a
deferred maintenance standpoint are
there a lot of people that have deferred
maintenance that have junky cars you
know out on the street all of these
types of things but is the community
laid out well is it logical do they have
nice common areas is there do they keep
up with their pool area do they is it
friendly for Animals is it friendly for
kids all of these types of things that
directly impacts home values in a very
real way and and what we've seen is a
dramatic reversal even in spite of
shelburn farms seeing not having As Nice
at homes as chart wall Estates does
generally speaking their home values
have gone up dramatically in recent
years and my personal opinion is that
that is directly related to the
neighborhood and so I use those two
as an example because I know those two
very well and they're very close to each
other and they were built about the same
time so it's a good sample to pull from
but I think that this applies to a lot
of other neighborhoods in the upstate
and perhaps even outside of the upstate
as you guys know I always caveat I'm
only a real estate expert in the upstate
of South Carolina I have no idea what's
going on in Chicago or San Diego or Las
Vegas besides some stats that I you know
look at online but I can only speak
to what it's like here in the Greenville
area now if you would like to move to
or within the Greenville area you can
feel free to reach out to me my contact
information is in the show notes if you
need to reach out to me for any reason
if you enjoyed episode 150 of selling
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leave a short little review if you don't
mind and I hope you guys stay safe we
will talk again next week
[Music]