Tamara and Peggy

Wed, Dec 07, 2022 11:21AM
1:05:04
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
parents, peggy, educators, meeting, child, conversations, compromise, book, partnership, iep meeting, important, building, student, tamara, administrators, data, district, trust, teachers, people

00:03
There we go. All right. I am very excited to connect with both of you today and talk about thepower of building positive parent partnerships expecially as parents are and professionals arenavigating the world of special education, so I am excited and elated to chat and pass on someknowledge to our listeners. So let's kick it off by having you introduce yourself. Peggy, would you like to go first?
00:35
Sure. My name is Peggy bud. I am a educator I've been in the business for well over 30 years, began in public education. Now, a consultant with my practices, speaking skillfully. And I'm a co author of navigating special education along with Tamara. Hi,
00:59
I'm Tamara Jacobson, and I've been also in education, approximately 30 years, I began as ateacher, as so many do and quickly moved into administration. I now am the executive director of an educational consulting firm, East Coast educational consulting, and I am the co author ofthis wonderful book, navigating special education, the power of parent educator partnerships.
01:34
Can you guys tell me how you connected and how this book came to be? Because this, we'regonna drop a lot of nuggets during our conversation, and I want to just kind of give a backstoryabout how the two of you got together and, and how this book is going to be out into the world.
01:54
Okay, basically, Tamara and I met on LinkedIn, we live up 100 miles apart, if it wasn't forLinkedIn, we would have never met. And that's how we came to meet. And after we got to knoweach other, we really realized we had so much that and we had so many great ideas that we decided we really wanted to write a book to share this information with parents and educators.Tomorrow, why don't you add a little more,

02:23
I think, I think when Peggy and I started writing to one another on LinkedIn, it was very obviousthat so many people had been through so much in the education system negatively. And because Peggy and I had both been administrators for the school system, and then crossedover into our consulting lives and myself as a parent of a child with special needs, we really hada more positive approach. And we were excited to find that commonality that that commonality. And I do want to say that we wrote this book over a very good meeting point, and it was COVID. That actually helped us finish once zoom became a very common thing.
03:09
I love that what a great story, and especially to have that goal of empowering parents at theIEP table. Can you describe the main goals of building a positive parent educator partnership?
03:27
Well, we can start with the the goal of building a partnership is really to get parents andeducators to really start to talk and listen and understand each other's perspective. Because if everybody's coming at it, where they don't, there, they've got their own mindset, not as muchas going to be accomplished for the child.
03:49
So it's very important that instead of the one
03:52
second, so I think it may be easier when we go to edit this if like maybe if you just kind of putyour finger up just so just so Peggy can finish her thought and then you can get your thought out. And then if there's a pause, it's totally fine. We'll just clip it right out. But then it's harder, it's easier to clip out dead sound than it is to clip out.
04:13
I didn't know if it was okay to do a visual. So I was like, Yeah, that's right.
04:16
No problem, because like most of this will be audio. So it's no problem. Yeah. Go ahead, Peggy.

04:23
No, go on. You're talking. Yeah,
04:25
I'm just gonna go over what we would. So it's very important that when parents come to the IEPtable, that they know that their role is to be part of the IEP team. However, in our book, we want them to take the team and make it more of a partnership. And in doing so, and partnering the educators at the table with the parents. It really does build trust. And it's very importantthat outcomes come out of that trust and an openness and a willingness To communicate goingforward, we also want to say that it's important for parents and educators to come to the tablewith data. And we talk a lot about data collection in our book, and how trust and verification and transparency are very apparent when you have data to back up your philosophy and your quotes. And that's a great way to build partnerships. What are some?
05:31
Go ahead? No, I was going to add a partnership. The idea of a partnership, really, to piggybackon what Tamara is saying, which is everything that we so strongly embrace, is that apartnership or create a third voice, and we even going back to our relationship, we feel that wethat's what we've done, we each came to the table with, obviously, a lot of common feelings,but we still had our own ideas and beliefs. And we have truly listened to each other, andembraced and understood the other person's perspective, which is so important in this process.And from there, we have created what we see our book to be as a third voice. And that's what we're hoping that parents and educators can do at the table is really to listen and create a thirdvoice. That is what is going to be the best plan for the child. And on top of that, it's veryimportant to get to that third voice that the parents learn and the educators learn about activelistening. And respectfully dialoguing, which we're going to talk about,
06:46
can you describe a little bit more what you mean by third voice?
06:52
A third voice is really a voice that isn't really, it's not exactly what I think. And it's not exactlywhat what in our case, Tamara thinks, or in the case of the IEP team, educators have their opinions, their ideas, and what they think as the greatest, best recommendation for how tomove forward with the child and plan and program for the child. Parents also have ideas. A third voice is really listening and saying, Okay, I hear what you're saying. It's, it's, I would say, almost linked to, in some ways compromise. But it's more than compromise, because I'm not giving in anything, I'm really embracing what you're saying. And you're embracing what I'm saying. And we have really come up with something bigger, better, different and morewonderful than what either of us thought about at the beginning.

07:46
I would also love to add that in terms of the third voice, if you can't get it to where the studentis having a voice at that table, because students at a certain age are not at the table. And so I think the ultimate goal is that when the educators and the parents actually form this thirdvoice, and also come to a shared vision, it's really the child's voice, the students voice that'sbeing heard.
08:18
Who, so when we talk about the stakeholders at an IEP table, can we talk about who those stakeholders are? And then it leads me to think about in terms of this process of a third voice,how, what are some techniques to get to that positive place, because as a mom of a child, wehave three boys, my middle son is a brain cancer survivor, you come to that table with suchfear and love. And then you have other stakeholders at the table that have their ideologies, and so forth. How do we get to a place to respect to respectfully hold that space for a third voice.
09:08
So I would like to say that the third voice is really very important, because what it does is ittakes the power away from both the educator and the parents. And what it does is it brings you to an equal playing field. And through the five c model of communication, which Peggy is going to speak about. And it's in our book, we give you the tools necessary to get to that third voice.And also, the idea is to really bring both parties to have a shared vision. And so when both parties are being heard, and we've gone through the five c model, as well as bringing data tothe table, the defense has come down the trust is built, and we get to where that third voicecomes through. So it's in our book, and we give you those tools through the five c model. I love
10:11
that. And so before we are going to dive into that five c model, and I love that clarification, canyou for folks that are listening that may have never been at an IEP table? Or are preparing fortheir first meeting? Can you identify the stakeholders that are are at that table?
10:30
Sure. Well, it starts out with there are educators and they're not just this child's regular or, youknow, typical teacher. But there's also any special education teachers, there are any sort ofrelated services people, whether they're OT, PT, speech pathologist, social workers,psychologists, all of those people are also sitting around the table, which it can be intimidating to a parent. And then there's a school and there's a school, usually a school administrator, who is acting as a team leader. And then there are the parents. And sometimes the parents may bring a consultant. And of course, when meetings get adversarial, there are oftentimes lawyerssitting around the table. So those meetings can be very overwhelming and intimidating. And they can actually prevent everyone around the table from truly listening. But more often saying, Well, this is what I want to say, this is what I want, and just wanting to get their voicesheard. And we're really believed if you're going to build a partnership, going back to you haveto really listen, hear what the other person is saying. And when we really listen, we do find that there are going to be points of agreement. And then we have to really explain why we'redisagreeing, whether it's educator or parent, because everybody has reasons to disagree.

12:05
I would also like to add that at the meeting, we call this the landscape of practice, we call it thecommunity of practice. And within that community of practice, there are very important stakeholders. And, you know, my colleague, Peggy described some of those individual stakeholders. But I think the most important thing to realize for parents is that every individualschool, and every individual school board, and every individual state has its own community ofpractice with their own trials and tribulations and things that they believe in things that haveworked, and they bring all of that to the table. So in looking at your stakeholders, I would sayit's important for parents to do a little bit of due diligence in terms of knowing the culture, andthe community of the facility that their kids attend. I think that is very important.
13:08
And I'd also like to add that as soon as a child is old enough, and within the lodge, usually 12 or
13. We really believe that their voice needs to be at that table and heard if they can in any waydo that. And in our book we have, we even have a story about a student who ended up beingthe one that spoke at the meeting and really was able to present themselves because if thevoice is the students, having been an administrator at many meetings, when when an Aconsultant if I can get the student to say what they feel and what they think, and not only what,but why, and how they want to, we'll use whatever they're asking for, then it's really powerful.And sometimes we get, I've seen school districts where people would have said they wouldhave never done it.
14:13
So let's talk about you know, I think it's interesting how you describe the landscape and theculture within a school building can differ very much even within a district. So tell me the five model the five c model of communication.
14:30
Sure. Well, the five C's begin with conversations, collaboration, cooperation, calm, which leads to consensus. And when we think about it, you have to have conversations and too often at

14:49
PE Can you your third C went out, can you just start again, okay,
14:55
and then it's the five C's are conversations collaboration, cooperation, compromise and consensus. And when we begin with those conversations, too often, you will attend an IEPmeeting and you will find that conversations aren't really happening. What's really happening is a monologue. And I mean, a monologue on the part of the parent and the educator, the parentis asked to tell what they think or what their concerns are. And nobody goes deeper thanmaybe asking another what question conversations are what you really want to dig deep, whyand how the same is true when educators give reports, they just read a report or tell how the,you know what the child is doing in school, but they won't really don't explain the how and thewhy and what they're doing and what's working and what isn't working. And those are the conversations that will help parents and educators develop what we're talking about is the thirdvoice.
16:05
And sometimes, when dialogue is going on, we find that in the IEP meeting, because of allthese feelings and anxiety and unsureness it's it's nobody's fault. But we do feel like the conversation breaks into more of the negative, which might go into a diatribe or a debate. And we really strongly feel that it's important for everyone present to try and keep it into thepositive and just stay in dialoguing. And so not having a monologue where you're, you know, ona soapbox, but really dialoguing with one another, like Peggy said, getting into the why and thehow, and that, you know, as long as it's on your mind to stay positive that you're dialoguingback and forth, and no one is right, no one is wrong. Everyone is there for the right reason,then that piece of the conversation, which is number one in our five c model really workspositively. And then Peggy can explain how when you go from the conversation, we move tothe second step.
17:15
Okay, and conferencing, allow people to start to undertake perspective, understandperspective taking. And it also allows them to together develop their own shared vision. And what happens in so many IEP meetings is that the district kind of comes with their shared visionof how they think it's best to meet the child's needs, and also what they think the child needs.It's through those conversations that parents and educators will form that start to form thatpartnership, through a shared vision. And in once you have that, you can start to collaborate,and you're collaborating on all aspects, developing goals and objectives, and thinking aboutprograms and services. And it's all collaboration.
18:10
And in fact, one of the things that we really feel is best practice that is not being done acrossthe landscape of education today, is under collaboration. Once you're trying to form a partnership, if you're an administrator with those parents, we actually suggest that a premeeting to the IEP meeting take place, as part of collaborating, getting to know somebody in avery casual setting is very important. So in our book, we actually mentioned the pre meeting, ifthe administration can bring in the parents in a very non threatening non IP, non formal way,they start to collaborate and have a nice dialogue in a positive way. And so that's one of the things that our book suggests going forward. And then from collaboration, we move to

19:03
we learn to cooperate with each other. And cooperation is just another part of collaboration.And once you are having deep conversations and are open to really collaborating with eachother and cooperating, then if there are differences, you understand the other person'sperspective, and you've unpacked some of these things. And so then, parents and educatorswill hopefully now be ready and available to discuss some kind of compromise. If they can't reach consensus.
19:39
That's right. And you know what, I just want to interject on this, I think this is phenomenal. For professionals and for parents. And again, you're coming from as a parent lens, this fear this love, anxiety. When you're at a table you walk into an IEP meeting. It's like a board meetingand As your you know, when you come into that meeting, you're usually the last one to arrive,maybe, you know, somebody is coming in after you. So it's usually, you know, the smallest tiniest chair and a tight little corner. However, now zoom makes it a little bit different or Googlemeets or however, but I want to just go back for a second with that conversation piece isginormous to me, because you're absolutely right, in terms of, for me being on either side ofthat table, and sitting at that IEP table as a professional and as a parent. Too often those reports are read to you verbatim, and sort of explained and a deeper dive and making theconnection and, and really, as an educational diagnostician, for me, the best part of that of anytype of report is the how and the why, you know, you have the data there. But why, what arethe connections? What are how can we develop something that's really, truly individualized forthat child. And I would say through that conversation of the how, and the why that very firstsee of your five c model, you're developing trust on either side. And so I think the deeper thattrust and respect is as a neutral partnership and relationship, that collaboration, cooperation,compromise, will start to flow with limited friction. I'm not saying it's going to work 100% Every time, I can't imagine that. But I think it's a really good starting point to encourage people tohave conversations, and it makes me think of, again, my three boys and just everybody wantsto be on their phone. And I'm always like, Be human, have a conversation, you know, right, let'sgo back to the basics. So what let's continue with our C's,
22:00
when when you have good conversation, it humanizes each of the team members, and helpsyou build that partnership. Because to get to a partnership, you really do have to have trust,and we're gonna get to that. But I think the conversations flowing, really do help you with that.

22:22
And I agree with Tamara, want to add that, through that trust, we need conversations also needto develop that transparency. I think too often. And I'll tell you not only sitting at the table, aswith parents or as a consultant or as a parent, but also as a as an administrator. Oftentimes, there isn't transparency, everybody's sort of afraid to say what they really think or what theyreally believe the child needs, or when questions are asked, they oftentimes hedge the answersbecause they're afraid Well, that's not what we were really presenting. So that's where we want that open and honest relationship, that if a parent asks something that we're going to start todevelop trust and transparency.
23:09
And I also think it's important for parents to realize that directors have special services,supervisors of Special Services, also have their regulations and their limits, too. And sometimes this causes an ethical dilemma on the part of the supervisor. And both Peggy and I have sat in that role as well. And it's important to just bring out that for the families listening to this today,understand that they also have a job to do the supervisors. And sometimes it's a budgetaryconcern, although we know money is not supposed to play a part. Sometimes it's they know that in their district, they're not going to ever get certain services. So there's a whole litany of things that come into that conversation. And it is important for parents to just step back a littlebit and be aware that there's an ethical dilemma there as well for the supervisors.
24:08
That's an interesting perspective. And I'm glad you shared it. I think it's a very real perspectivethat I hear all the time from both sides, parents and professionals. How could it parent?Because you have both been in that role as administrators? How can a parent or an IEP teamreally work to ensure the child's needs are met? If there is this, as you say, ethical dilemma?
24:36
Well, one thing that it really helps drive that through those conversations is really the why. So a parent request something they want whatever in the district feels that they either can't affordor don't have the resources, teacher wise, whatever to do it. What we need stations. Okay, this is your,
25:04
your voice just went out.
25:06
I said, Can you hear me now?

25:08
Yeah, I think it's dropping because of your Wi Fi iPad.
25:11
Okay? What we need to do is have those honest conversations so that, that people can reallytell the why. So if a parent wants something, it to just say I want this or my child needs this,and not really look at what they need a lot of different ways that need can be met. And that's really where those conversations go. It's not just I want this one thing, but and the districtshould also have those same conversations of how they could meet that need in maybe a morecreative way, or a different way than the parent has ever thought about.
25:50
And on top of that, when we're talking about budgets are inner city communities that don'thave the tax money funneling down to the students and the special education department, it isimportant to be creative as my partner Peggy said, I actually have just written some thingsabout this. But when looking at the community organizations, and the monies that might beavailable to do some sort of wraparound services that some states have in some states shown,or to look at the medical insurance, and we're we are investigating these type of things. And, and luckily, in the year 2020, to 23, I will say that more administrators, especially in the lowersocio economic levels, in those schools are looking for alternative means to try and meet whatthe child needs. But I agree, it's very important not to come in and say this is what I want. And that's why we spend so much time honing in on data, bring the data,
26:56
I was just gonna say that that brings it all back to bring the data as a parent, bring the data asa professional have your raw data sheets. If you don't data, it doesn't happen.
27:08
Right. And it's very hard to argue with data. If, for example, if a parent talks about the child'smeltdowns, and my child needs these services, because of that, that's very subjective. If theycome in with a 32nd, video clip, or video clip for a couple of days, it shows how the child throwsthemselves on the floor every day when they walk into the house. That's powerful.
27:38
So we were talking about, actually our fourth See, so Peggy, would you like to pick it up fromcollaborate wise, compromise,
27:50

27:50

compromise? Compromise is really something that I think sometimes people, educators, andparents kind of dig their heels in, and they don't want to do that they're afraid to compromise,they're afraid that they're going to have to give something up. And what we have found that, really a compromise goes back to that third voice, that third idea. If I listen to what you've gotto offer and look at what and why you're offering it, and you listen to what I'm really asking,and the what and the why, then we may come up with a way to compromise that actuallyeither combines a little bit of both, or actually comes up with something totally new anddifferent, that neither of us would have thought about, and may actually be a better programthan we actually started with.
28:45
Can you give me an example of when you have seen compromise shine?
28:53
That that's a wonderful example. I mean, questions or to talk about, I have seen compromise inso many of my IEP meetings, where both parties have gone through some of the steps ofbuilding trust. And I've been an educational consultant on you know, representing families nowfor over 10 years. And a great example of compromise is when the parents came in, and theytruly could not afford a special needs camp, which would afford the child services with signlanguage and a one on one OT and a one on one aid. And the district had never actually paidfor in extended school year es why a family to attend such a camp and the cost of somethinglike this is upwards of 8000 to $10,000. And this was not budgeted for But after this positive,trusting relationship that had been built, when the parents actually proposed the need for thisstudent to attend this program, and how would it it would impact the fall programming and thepositivity and show proof of acceleration of the students learning. And also fill any voids overthe summer, I saw a compromise on the part of the school district where they were willing toactually find the funding and send this child to that camp. So hopefully, that's a good example. And it was a very successful summer for everybody.
30:46
That's an amazing, amazing unheard of story. Is there one that is probably more common thatyou would see have a shine with just even with our C's, so far, far a conversation, collaboration,cooperation, and then as we're discussing compromise in terms of something that you've beenlike, wow, but maybe not. On the way budgeted under budget inside. I love that story. By the way, I mean, that's spectacular
31:18
Holy Spirit. It's a great story, and one that I think warms everyone's heart. I think that one of the things that when when there is trust, and there's this openness to compromise, I think whatalso happens is both districts and parents realize that if you're not willing to give a little, andmaybe accept a little bit of differences, this meeting this, the first of all, the child may end up getting nothing, because you're going to go to due process. And then you're sitting there whereeverything is, you know, where, where it started, that's not working. And so, actuallycompromise can really save districts and families, money and stress and aggravation. And I think that as you build that trust, you start to realize, okay, where do I give a little because ifyou if I say no, and then you fail due process, as a parent, it's going to cost the district 1000s ofdollars in legal fees, less money, by me not doing something, Cena then said, Okay, a programfor several children, which they hadn't planned to do. But now they'll say, Okay, if this is whatwe'll let's, we'll bring in a couple of kids or kids from several schools within the district to dothat. And that's another creative way, which without that, without that willingness tocompromise would not have happened.

32:51
So another quick anecdote that is a little bit more realistic, in my years of being an educationalexpert, is that I have seen multiple times where families will come in, and they want to havetheir child placed in inclusive settings. And so this is a very common thing if their child is on thespectrum, and they were maybe in a learning disabled room with, you know, two teachers andeight students. Now, the parents are asking maybe to be in a little bit more of an inclusiveprogram, and the district is feeling like well, I don't really think that the student is there yet, thebehaviors are still there. And we do have to think about the typically developingneurodevelopmental appropriate behaviors that go on in a in a gen ed class. And so I have seen many times where they're willing to give the family a experimental three month trial period,where the students are not going to get hurt, who are you know, sitting in the in the class, andthey're learning how to deal with somebody who's, you know, neuro different, and you do havea different thinking. And also, if the behaviors are going to really rear its head, it wouldprobably happen within three months. And one of the things Peggy and I very long ago agreedon is that when you go into a negotiation, it's really good. If you can say, I'm not sure if this is going to work, but let's try a trial period. And both of us feel that a three month period is like a very good, best practice for this trial. And so that's something that came out of compromise, inmy experience is that inclusion piece.
34:39
And I agree with Tamara, that, that idea of compromise. So now nobody's giving it all the way.What they are doing is saying, Okay, we'll just give you a few months, whether it's, we'll givethe district and I've seen parents give the district a few months to collect data to show thatNothing works. Instead of just saying, wait a minute, I want this, okay, I'm open to listening andseeing if it works.
35:08
I love that example. Because it really does shine that kind of compromise that nobody's giving up. Nobody's giving in. But you're really saying, you know, if one partner in the team ispassionate about, for or against something, it's saying, let's give this a try. You're meeting in the middle, let's collect the data. And oftentimes the kid is successful, and it's amazing. And then now, you know, and if you can build that support as needed around that, I think that'sexcellent. An excellent example. Can you then tell us about consensus? What does that mean?

35:52
Well, consensus really means that everyone on the team agrees with what? What is beingproposed. And that's where at the end of every IEP meeting, when you know, it said, Okay, thisis what we're recommending going through program services and placement. And everybody says, Yes, I agree. And we don't want it to be yes, I agree. where somebody's acquiescing andjust giving in, and we really want parents to feel when they say, Yes, I agree that they truly agree. And then their partners, if they just agree, because they feel they don't want, they don'thave a choice, or they look to the educators as well, they're the experts. And they know, and I guess I have to agree, that's not really consensus.
36:40
I also want to add that it takes time, these things are not going to happen overnight, parentsare not in the same position to have the pre knowledge of an educator. And that's the way the system is set up. You know, teachers go to school for a long time to become a professional andan expert, and have the knowledge they do. And parents have had those children since birth,and they know their kids better than anybody. And so to get to where there's actual and trueconsensus, I want to just bring up to our audience. This takes time, this is not okay, we're, you know, we're doing everything now. And so we're all in agreement, you know, who right and it's great. Know, each step of the way helps to go to where there is that general consensus thateverybody has that third voice and that wonderful shared vision that is going to go into the IEPand translate into success. And so I just wanted to bring up the point that to get to consensus, Iwant everyone to be realistic. That takes time. And it takes effort on every stakeholder in the meeting, and doing their part.
37:57
And I'd like to add to that, that not only does it take time, it requires everyone to come to thatmeeting with that openness and willingness, that they realize that building a partnership,rather than the parents and educators just being on this team is a possibility. And that that is and it's the system, in many ways, is somewhat broken without a partnership. And so in order to fix it, it's not a legislative fix. It's a mindset shift that fixes it. How can we?
38:40
Or how can parents address an imbalance and effort from the IEP team? So I, we've outlinedthe process, and everything is amazing. But sometimes there may be that imbalance in theeffort of an individual on the IEP team? Do you have any advice for parents that are listening oreven professionals to encourage the balance? So
39:09
it's such an important question, and how can parents feel a little bit more empowered thatthey're part of this team and moving toward partnership? And I think just in sheer numbers, the
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under representation from the parent side, you know, puts them in a position of feeling that way. And then the fact is that in education in our community of practice, we have a vernacular,we have a specific vocabulary that teachers and administrators and special ed supervisors theyall speak and the parents may not even understand, let alone if they're a second languagespeaker, and then they need let's say, a translator, which they're entitled to at the meeting.And so you have all of these barriers to make the make what appears to have the Parents feellesser than. And so your point is, is very, you know, important. How can we make parents feel empowered to be sort of not at a disadvantage. And the number one thing that we reallyalways want to get out is parents can bring as many people as they would like to thesemeetings. And so many parents do are not aware that they can actually bring people to speakon their behalf, or to just be there for support, and to actually, you know, discuss maybewitness to some of the behaviors that they've seen. But as long as you let the case manager orthe administrator know, you can bring multiple people to that meeting, which we encourage asEducational Consultants, and that sort of helps that imbalance to begin with. And then a second thing that can be done, again, is to really do those pre meetings, letters to the teacher, teacherconferences before you get to that IEP meeting, so that when the parents walk into thatmeeting, they're not feeling like everyone was whispering about us, you know, for 10 minutes.And now here we come in, and everyone's shy, there's some hidden agenda. uncomfortable, right. But instead, they've met with them several times. There's humaneness, you know, the human nature, they've broken those barriers down. And now there's that comfort level and support, where they feel like, Oh, I really am a partner at this table. And so those are, those are just two concepts I wanted to bring up. Peggy.
41:39
Yeah, I want to add to that something that we talked about in the book is an idea of helpingparents understand the alphabet soup of the meeting, by what in the pre meetings, talkingabout things, giving them basically a cheat sheet of the terminology that may be used at themeeting, and what it means. And then when asking it, basically defining it anyway, so that theparents feel that they understand. And it's not just a bunch of words or acronyms, that theyreally understand what is being said,
42:20
and parents receive by law, the due process guide in every chapter are a manual to sort of readthrough and get them ready. But we do understand that if you're not coming from aneducational background, and you're opening that manual, it's mandatory. Well, we sent you,you know, your brochure, until you break that down for you, you don't really still understandyour rights. And so some of our suggestions that are in the book, talk about, you know, whereto get this help of understanding the world of education, you would, as a parent, you wouldspend time maybe looking at safety for cars, or you're turning 16 or 17 year old that's driving.And you know, we don't say, Hey, you're putting all this time and effort into the research to buy a car. So we don't feel that bad, saying we've been educators. And we're asking you to do alittle bit of research and learn a little bit about the due process, because that's going to help alot.
43:23

Right. But one of the other things, I totally agree with you but one of the other things I think wetalk about in the book, is that that due process, when you get that that procedural safeguarddocument, along with your invitation to a meeting is very intimidating, because it's legalese.And now all of a sudden, you feel like what's going on? Why are they doing this? And therefore,we really need to make sure that they understand that it's not, we don't want to intimidatethem, but that does intimidate them. So that's why those pre meeting conversations. That's why the cheat sheet. That's why all of that those conversations are going to help parents feel apart of the team and not feel that they're alienated. In the meeting,
44:18
you've brought up the term pre meeting a couple of times today. So can you give me anexample of what a pre meeting would look like for a parent or is that only for professionals?What does a pre meeting me? Well? All right, what
44:36
what we can see Devin is when you know possibly parents have and we hope parents have metwith teachers before you get to the IEP process and hope they may have even met withadministrators. But when we're going to have this instead of just sending them this invitation tocall them up and say would you like to come in for a cup of coffee and just have a little chatand say, we are not at a point where we need to go into this formal process. Explain to themthat the process is actually developed of under federal and state law to just let them know thatthis is everybody, but it's that all of this is really to provide your child with safeguards, and thento explain to them a little bit so that they feel comfortable that meeting over a cup of coffee,because if you, if you drink coffee, you know, sort of breaking bread, it makes it a comfortablesituation, that meeting can make them when they now come to that IEP meeting, they alreadyfeel like they have a friend, oh, I met with so and so. And they feel that connection.
45:43
So one of our concepts for the pre meeting was, you know, there's a library in every school ormedia room, now they call it and there's a cafeteria or a general, you know, location. So a principal or a director of special services may not want to bring them into their office and justhave a cup of coffee, but instead meet in the general location, a very non threatening, youknow, your child didn't do anything wrong. And if the parent can't take off another way, if theycan't come in, during the day to do this might be to say, Hey, I'm going to send you a Zoommeeting, we have a meeting coming up, let's just have like a group meet up. Do you have anytime after work, we can meet for a 15 minute block, I'll have my tea or coffee or a glass of winewaiting. And we will keep it casual. And anything that you'd like to ask me as an administrator, I'd love to answer. So there, it's the timing of it as well. But if the family is able to come duringthe day, you we could have them come into the library or do the cafeteria and just meet withthem and say I'm here for you. I don't want you to be nervous. Do you have any questions for me? And so that's kind of our concept of what it looks like.
46:59

I am smiling. I know people can't see us. They're listening. But I'm smiling. Because when I was in the classroom as a special education case manager, I've never called them pre meetings. I didn't have the foresight to do that. But I would call parents ahead of time. And just that isestablishing trust it is building a relationship, asking, Do you have any questions before thismeeting, and I've already spoken to them several times about their kiddo and the successesthat are taking place, not necessarily calling to say, hey, you know, this happened. And this is wrong. But really, it's an incredible way to develop that relationship and humanize this verystressful, overwhelming experience for parents. And so I love that it's called a pre meeting. And again, now with Zoom or some sort of virtual meeting place, it makes it accessible for familiesto be able to start to build that rapport and that understanding with each other and studyingthat success for that five, same model.
48:06
Definitely, and and the concept of pre meeting, I mean, it's just any meeting is that before ameeting is a pre meeting, we just kind of called it that way. And we're not saying that there areteachers and educators and administrators across the country that may not be doing this, whatwe are saying this isn't, you know, standard practice. This isn't what happens for every meeting with every person. And so I'm we're saying we think it should be standard practice,
48:36
right? It's not a requirement. It's not a federal requirement.
48:39
So and it's not a district requirement. No, it's and so you were an obviously a caring,outstanding educator who realized the importance of building trust and helping parents cometo the meeting, comfortable. A lot of people don't do it. And I will tell you that when I've sharedsome of our ideas with other professionals and colleagues, they'll say, Oh, well, how can youeven recommend that we don't have time we're already overworked. We feel that if you put thetime in upfront, and build that trust, that those meetings that were subnet were set for an hourand ended up to be two and a half hours. Maybe the first time it will be two and a half hours butthat trust and those free meetings now the meetings will run smoothly, quickly and the studentwill get what they need to be successful and the parents and educators will feel like partnersand that's the best way to go. i
49:43
Tomorrow Do you have anything to do want to add?
49:46
No, I I just wanted to say it sounds like you are wonderful case manager and we need we need1000s of you who have do take that extra step to help the parents feel comfortable. Well in the

y pppprocess, and part of the reason we both we wrote this book is not really just to help theparents, but really to represent the side as well of the education system. And to just try and bridge some of those partnerships and give them tools to do that. All we can do is the best we can do.
50:20
That's right. And so timely, because educators are frustrated and overwhelmed right now togive them this permission to kind of make these connections if possible. And you're absolutelyright, by building this partnership, and advance and doing the heavy lifting ahead of time,you're setting the stage for hopefully, a smoother conversation discussion at a formal IEPmeeting.
50:48
And I will say, getting back to data, the reason that we spent so much time on the importanceof data, and we actually give in our book, we give some examples of what data collectionshould be based on the different diagnoses, what parents should collect what administratorsand educators should come with to the table. We wanted to give examples or exemplars of this.And we felt that one of the best ways to take away this, this anxiety that we've talked aboutthroughout this meeting, is really to be armed with just facts. And the more facts that you have. And the more data that's been collected and reviewed, the less arguing is going to occur,because it's very difficult to argue with facts. In fact, if you look at debate, right, you go aheadand you collect all of your data, and then somebody stands up and they read through reallyquickly all of their facts. And so these are the facts of the children of this special needs child towho's going to need special services. And once this data is collected, and the tests have been given, and the parents have also come with their actual concrete, you know, video collection,or, you know, papers or showed the homework and how it's ripped, or whatever it might be,which we give many examples of in the book, it's really arming the conversation. And it helps to, to really move that conversation along in a very positive way.
52:30
And to add to that, not only does it do that, it helps reduce that emotion. Remember, at the beginning, when he talked about parents come and they feel all the same emotion and anxiety.And as educators, we both men, educators, and administrators, we to do these meetings withanxiety and apprehension because we all of us want what's best for the child, whether we areagreeing or disagreeing. I can't believe that there are any meetings where the people wereeither side are either group or either stakeholder is presenting something that isn't in the bestinterest of the child. So this that data removes that emotion and helps it you know, be moreuser friendly and helps people really feel like partners.
53:26
Parents and you adult alluded to this demerit about some examples, can you just share acouple more because oftentimes parents feel powerless in the sense that they are not in theclassroom to say, okay, my child answered this correctly, they were paying attention this much classroom to say, okay, my child answered this correctly, they were paying attention this much they transition to this way to really collect as an educator would collect data, what are someexamples that parents can do in their home? When their kiddo comes home? What would thatlook like so that they feel empowered with some low hanging fruit at the end of ourconversation today to say, Okay, now I know what I could do.

54:03
Right? So, you know, Peggy sits on the board of some private institutions, I am a public, I do alot of speaking engagements for higher education. And, uh, you know, we've both given thesort of the three month or six week data, you know, best practice to our administrators or our,the people that are at our meetings. And so an example of some of that what what in our book,what we've done is, we've given models where we put the behavior, the time of the day, thelocation that it's occurring, whether at home or community or school, we've really broken itdown to we even give examples of what behaviors are not typical, and that you should look forunder specific diagnoses. And so what our book does is it gives actual samples where you canactually just, you know, print out a lot of the samples that you can then put into like a loose leafor what we call a portfolio of data to bring and to hold on to. But an example of this would be,let's say you have a child who is on the spectrum, and the child cannot sit to do the amount ofhomework that the teachers have given them. And so they're ripping the paper, and they're kicking their feet. And they are, you know, just misbehaving. And then eventually, the parent istrying to come over, sit with them, and eventually, they're knocking their head against the wall,literally, and having physical, you know, outbursts about the homework. So an example of howto record that data would be like my colleague, Peggy said, visuals, and video is so powerful.And when you bring some of that video, it's it's indisputable. And then on top of that, we also have them chart, this is the time that it happened. This, the antecedent of the homework caused this behavior. And we have these charts and graphs where you would record it. And then you would keep that over the series of several weeks. And you know that your meeting is coming up. You can also ask for meetings much more often than just your annual IEP meeting,which we'll talk about. And my colleague, Peggy wants to piggyback on what I'm saying, butthat would be one positive, you know, thing that we sample in our book.
56:48
Totally agree Samara. And I would just add the video, some easy things, have your child sitdown and read a page from a book, that that and just bring that page, I mean, it can be literallya 32nd video takes no time at all. The other thing is, indicate, I know homework, oftentimes, asTamara talking about becomes a real difficult time for parents are frustrated for a variety of reasons. They can either just right on the top of the homework, the time the child started, andthen 15 minutes, draw a line, this is all they did, or an hour. And then one more thing, onemore thing, the idea of when when the child is, is struggling to please make sure that now I justlost my thought go on, I got distracted.
57:47
Take a second Peggy and then we'll just cut it out. You can go back, get your thought,

57:51
Okay. The the video and the tie. Oh, and the other thing that's really important is that parentsshould let the school know what they did to help the child. And I think too often, they're saying, Well, my child struggles. Okay, well, here is the paper. And if I sat in it, maybe if I sat next to my child, they completed the project problem. If I didn't, they didn't. Or if I am sure what youdid, that gives the school district some the teachers some indications of what kinds of supportthe same should be true of the educators, what is the strategy you're using to help the childlearn. And that's again, where that partnership that homeschool partnership where parents andeducators start speaking the same language to the child, it's not just speaking the samelanguage to each other.
58:44
It's also very important to write down if you have ADHD, or the child is medicated. It is important to write down the time that the students took their medication, and then look atwhere are they able to sit? And if they have ADHD were how many breaks? Let's say did theparents notice that they had to give the child during a series of let's say a 15 minuteassignment? And how many times were they redirected? And then compare that to if thestudent takes their medication in the morning before school? How many times did the teacherhave to redirect the student? How many times you know if they took their medication at 830 inthe morning, but they have reading until 10 o'clock and a block How many times did thestudent need to get a break and go walk the hall or asked to go to the nurse even though theydon't need the nurse? So you know we have we have our diagnosis and what is typical ofhandling those recordings, but include the medication piece because that does give more ofthe profile to everybody at the table as to what's helpful in terms of solutions to the bill. of yours.
1:00:00
Phenomenal, phenomenal. I mean, I feel like I could sit here and listen to both of you all day. I mean, this has been incredible insight and such gracious. It's been so gracious of you to offer your time and insight. I have one final question for both of you. And that is if you had a piece ofadvice that could go on a billboard, what would it be and why for parents?
1:00:32
You can go first, I have to think
1:00:35
my billboard would be communication, positive communication, drives partnerships. And byhaving you think about relationships, as partnership building, you become really part of that team. So think about positive partnerships through exciting and passionate conversations,which will lead to trust and being an excellent team member.

1:01:17
Perfect. One of the things that we do in our book is we have some quotes. And one of myfavorite one is the single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has takenplace. And I think that that billboard should talk about don't think that you got your messageacross, make sure that you did clearly explain the what the why and the how of your feelings,parents and educators.
1:01:47
Amazing, this whole discussion has been dripping with golden nuggets for sure. How can folks find you? How can they find your book? How can they reach out to you tomorrow, let's startwith you.
1:02:02
So Peggy, and I have actually, we actually have a little introduction video, it's a very cute cartoon. And it sort of explains some of these golden nuggets that are in navigating specialeducation, you can find that at navigating special education.com. And that is a joint shared website that is for our book. And it has that cute little video that I highly recommend everyonecheck out it has our BIOS, and then individually, both Peggy and I have our own companies, youcan literally Google my name Tamara l Jacobson, and get to East Coast educational consulting,and I'm available for professional development. For speaking engagements, Peggy and I are available together for that. And we just really want to help change the landscape in 2023. And bring best pack practices forward.
1:03:01
Thank you not only can on the website, do you see the video and learn all that but you canpreorder our book, or you can pre order our book by just going out to Amazon and typing innavigating special education. We're very excited about the book and really feel that althoughit's now for preorder, it will be available by the beginning of March. So that's really exciting to reach me. Personally, I also have my own personal website, you can just go to Peggy Budd PGG ybud.com. And you'll find me there or you can just email me at Peggy at Peggy bud.com. And I'd love to help you in any way. Whether it be navigating the special education process withTammy or you know, have conversations with you on other aspects of effective communication.Communication is what I do and who I am.
1:04:02
Thank you. Peggy I'm gonna have you repeat your website and stuff because you paused onboth of them your email and your website. So we're gonna repeat that.
1:04:14

Don't call me Tammy.
1:04:19
My, my website is Peggy budd.com. You can also find my me at speaking skillfully.com and myemail is Peggy at Peggy budd.com P E. G GYBUD. Only one day, okay. Thank you.
1:04:42
Thank you, everybody. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
1:04:46
Thank you for having us. Wendy. This has been an exciting conversation. And as you know, conversations, build partnerships.
1:04:53
Thank you so much, Wendy. We really enjoyed being a part of your podcast. This was a wonderful experience.
1:05:00
Thank you all right I'm gonna hit pause