Ben 0:06 Hello, and welcome to finance corner. I'm Ben, and this is Orla.

Orla 0:09 Today we're speaking to freelance journalist Donna Ferguson. Donna is an award winning freelance journalist specialising in celebrity interviews, personal finance, education and lifestyle pieces for national newspapers. Her articles appear regularly in The Guardian and The Observer.

Welcome to the show Donna, it's lovely to have you here.

Donna Ferguson 0:29 Thanks very much for having me.

Ben 0:30 Great to have you on the show Donna, I think it'd be really beneficial for our listeners to understand, first of all, how you got into freelance journalism?

Unknown Speaker 0:38 I was actually an editor at a small website, and then I got pregnant and had a year off on maternity leave, and I was sort of faced with the prospect of going back, and, you know, I tend to be sort of the last person to leave the office, I was managing a really busy website, a team of writers, and I had a young baby. I thought, actually, you know, I want the flexibility of freelancing, and so that I can spend more time with her, and luckily, my husband has a full time job, and he was 100% up for supporting me. I genuinely thought, because I'd spent an entire year just being called flora's mum, wherever I went, I genuinely thought that I would do like one article two articles a week for the company I used to work for, and basically be more a full time mum, then have any sort of real career. Then within 12 months, I'd won two awards for my work as a freelance journalist for The Guardian, a newspaper, I'd, you know, I'd never written for any of the Nationals before. Suddenly, they were all wanting me to write for them, because I'd won all these awards, and went on to win six more, and it was just the most amazing thing. Basically, I always tell people, you know, getting pregnant was the best thing I ever did for my career, because I probably would never have gone freelance. If I hadn't done that I would never have had the courage to kind of push myself to challenge myself. And, you know, freelancing has definitely been fantastic for my career, and for my journalism. As you said, you know, I write for The Guardian and The Observer, pretty much every week. And I also have been there for every single school play, every single school trip, I pick my daughter up from school at three o'clock, often, and you know, if she wants to do extracurricular stuff she can, but she doesn't have to. She's always had me there for her, and it's a bit of a juggling act. But now she's 10. I think both of us have really benefited from the fact that I'm freelance and, I have to say my husband has as well. So it worked out well for him too.

Orla 3:00 Wow, that's really amazing. That's quite inspirational hearing about your journey into freelancing, journalism, and also as a mother.

Donna Ferguson 3:09 Yeah, and I have to say, and this something people often ask, you know, is that I did have a huge amount of impostor syndrome when I started out. I think, you know, it's really important to acknowledge that. I remember, like, I'd just changed flora's nappy, and I put her to bed for a nap, and then I was calling someone up and saying, hey, it's Donna Ferguson from The Guardian. And, you know, and I don't know, it's just, it's one of those things, almost, I've discovered that the more things scare you about your career, those are the things you really need to do and challenge yourself to go for. Because if they work out, they really pay off.

Ben 3:48 How did you break into the Guardian? Was it just sending off a pitch for an idea you had for an article? Or was there a contact you knew, like, how did it happen?

Donna Ferguson 3:57 I actually was really lucky because I was at this cafe with my daughter, who, she was about 11 months old, and I ran into someone who I knew worked for The Guardian who was there with her baby. People talk about the old boys network, I think, there's like the working moms network, and she's just like, whoa, what are you doing? And I was like 'I'm gonna go freelance after my maternity leave ends.' And then we just talked about babies and where we were, you know, we lived in the same area of London, and I didn't dare think about, you know, pitching to her, or anything like that. And then a few days later, she just dropped me an email and said, you know, 'if you want to pitch to me, you should.' And I was like, wow, oh, my God, this is amazing. So she was really kind to me, and then I did pitch to her and I have to say the first piece that I wrote was, I think quite bad and she sent it back, but I did you know, redo it according to what she wanted, and the fact that she, she did that for me, you know, she took a chance on me, she helped me. And since then she's become a real mentor to me, and a really good friend. And, you know, when I was winning those awards, I was just like crying and thanking her and stuff, because you know, somebody willing to take a chance on you like that can really help. And I do think that often other women supporting women is just a really good thing if you can do that. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to get involved with Women in Journalism, which is an organisation that supports female journalists and sort of lobbies for equality in journalism. That's one of the reasons I got involved, because I'd had that benefit of somebody helping me at the start of my freelance career.

Orla 5:51 That's really great. That's brilliant to pass that on. So with that in mind, what would your advice be for someone that wants to break into journalism, that doesn't have a lot of experience or is perhaps pivoting from another career?

Donna Ferguson 6:05 I mean, when I went freelance I had 10 years experience, I do think that really helped me. I had built up 10 years experience as a staff writer, and then worked as an editor for several years, and especially working as an editor really helped me as a freelancer because I was pitching to editors all the time, and you need to be quite tough, you need to be really, really resilient, in order to cope with the rejection, because it's not personal. They're just busy, or they're in meetings, or they've seen that idea from another freelancer or a staff member, and they haven't got the time to explain everything, the reasons for that rejection. So we journalists, in the freelance journalist community, we call it pitching to the void, where you just don't get a response. That can be really, really hard. If you are just starting out in journalism, and you don't have a lot of experience, and you're not getting any feedback on why your pitches get rejected. I guess my advice would be that you should read the publications that you want to write for, and work backwards. So think this article, if you really know a publication inside out, you know who's the staff writers who are the Freelancers on it, because you read it every week and say, names come up, and you know, follow them on Twitter, they're the editor, or they're one of the staff writers. There's other names that will be less frequent and maybe you check them out and they're freelance. And then you know, those slots are freelance slots that you could pitch for. And then you can think, Well, okay, what did this Freelancer pitch? What did they put in their pitch, and it's all there in the article, it's like, there was a topical news hook, there was a case study, there was some statistics, there was an expert, an argument of like turning something on its head or looking to the future, or a new trend, or a new law coming in. It could be anything, but you can get a sense then of what that Freelancer pitched and what that editor commissioned. And if you do that on several articles in the same publication, you'll then start to see patterns emerge of what this editor is commissioning. And if you read the publication, you'll understand the audience. And then when you get ideas, you'll be able to tailor them to that publication. And that's why an editor wants to see, they want to see that you know the audience, you've tailored their ideas, and you've thought about what the editor wants, and haven't covered.

Ben 8:35 For those that don't know, how our freelance journalists paid? And what are the sort of the common challenges faced from becoming a freelance journalist? I know we're talked about pitching, but is there any other things that they should think about?

Unknown Speaker 8:46 It's very difficult, because unlike other industries, with freelance journalism, you tend to be dealing with another creative person who doesn't really control often how much they pay, they may have just been told you can pay a set amount per word. For example, The Guardian publishes on its website, how much it pays their wording, it's around 35p a word. Other publications don't publish. So you don't know unless you ask. But they usually don't say that they won't negotiate. The editor really is just saying, well, we want this feature. We want this many words. This is what we'll pay. But it's not often even as simple as that, because you're pitching an idea. And if you go to an editor and you pitch an idea, and then you say, in your pitch, by the way, I want, you know, a thousand quid for this, they will know that you're not a very experienced freelance journalist because most freelancers don't pitch like that. Most of the time, you just pitched the idea. And then if it's commissioned, they come back to you with the word count because you don't know how many words they want, you may think, Oh, this is a really long feature, but they may see it as, actually, they've only got space for a short feature or whatever, they will decide where it's going to fit in their publication. So then they'll come back to you with the word count, and they should come back to you with the deadline, and the fee. And at that point, you have the opportunity to look at those three things and go, well, the deadlines too short, the fees too small, the word counts too tight for me to be able to fit this, you know, the idea that you've commissioned, the brief, I can't fit the brief into that word counting. So at that point, you can sort of go back to them on those three things. But sometimes they forget to sometimes they just go, yeah, that'd be great when you can you file and they just want, they don't tell you the words, they don't even tell you the fee. Or sometimes they don't even tell you the deadline. You really sometimes have to ask that stuff. And yes, you can negotiate at that point, if you are experienced. And they, for example, I've had a situation where magazines have come to me out of the blue and asked me to write something for them. And I then said, well, in that case, you know, it's going to be this much more than you've offered me because I could see that they wanted me specifically to write it. But that is a bit risky, because they're obviously a new client, and you don't really know their budget. I have done that. And it has worked, I have also managed to successfully increase the rate unpaid for certain things that I do, you know, regularly, but it's very difficult, because the rates have set kind of centrally, the editors have little control, or at least that's what they say. And it can be quite hard to negotiate as a result.

Ben 11:45 Are those sort of ironclad, then? Like I'm thinking back to other industries. So if you were like a freelance builder, you could say, well, I'm much better at being a freelance builder now because my extension that I've built looks so much better than when I first started so I can charge you more. Whereas I guess, with journalism if you're paid by the word, your words may be better, you might be writing a better article, but do you necessarily get a better result in pay?

Donna Ferguson 12:10 A lot of publications over the last 10 years, haven't put their rates up with inflation. And you really feel disheartened, when you know, that you've got more experience, and potentially, you know, like me, win awards, but you're not paid any more than you were when you first started out. Inflation has eroded some of that pay is sometimes the case that you'll find a publication has put rates up, it's usually only by a few pennies per word. And it doesn't make that much difference compared to the impact of inflation. And there's no sign that as inflation rises, that publications are putting their rates up, they tend to stay the same.

Orla 12:58 How do you see the future of freelance journalism looking with regards to rates and inflation? And you know, wages?

Donna Ferguson 13:07 Not good? Unless there's real pressure put on organisations? I don't think they're going to pay up? I feel quite pessimistic about it.

Orla 13:17 Do you think perhaps, this current situation that is quite pessimistic could open up a window for more kind of innovative ways to navigate that at all?

Unknown Speaker 13:29 I don't know. Because the problem is that content is just getting cheaper and cheaper as more people want to become writers. I mean, I know people who work for very little for like fifty, sixty pounds, for a thousand words, which is very, very little. There's so much competition, and people sometimes say things to me, like do you want to write for exposure? I mean, even for very experienced journalists, you get these kinds of emails. People don't value written content the way that, for example, my husband is a computer programmer, you know, they value his code, and they would never expect him to write for them some code for free. But they're just words they're just not as valuable. So I don't know, at the moment, there's still a lot of demand to get into journalism and people willing to work for low pay. And until that stops, then, yeah, it's difficult. I mean, there is a great Facebook group called Can Pay Won't Pay, which is just for freelancers. You can get help with any sort of payment issue. Because the problem is it's not even just rates, it's actually getting paid. You hear these nightmare stories of publications, people just they've been commissioned, and then the editor might ghost them where they filed the copy, and then it never gets printed, and they don't know why the editor just doesn't reply to emails or maybe the answer says: 'Sorry, we couldn't use it in the end,' and leaves it at that, and then doesn't tell them how they're going to get paid. Someone was telling me recently, that one newspaper has said to them: 'If it doesn't go in tomorrow, you can have it back.' Luckily, it did go in that day but I mean, this kind of precarious nature, because there isn't really a contract, and often editors don't seem to recognise that we're not actually, although we love what we do, and most people are journalists, because they want to be journalists, not because they want to make money, but we are still trying to earn a living, and it's not easy if you get told that you're not going to make money from something that they've committed to paying for. So it's a bit of a struggle to know exactly how I've handled those situations.

Ben 15:48 If you're a freelance journalist, or you want to be one, do you have like a contract, if you just say, have a long standing relationship with a publication rather than sending a pitch to one title and going to another publication with other with the same pitch if they reject it? Is there a difference there, or is it still no contracts?

Unknown Speaker 16:06 Yeah, it's still like that. So unfortunately, you know, I write for the Observer almost every week, but I don't have any kind of contract with them. I think very rarely, some people are put on what's called a retainer, where they're told they will get this much money a month, and they'll be expected to do 'this much' work for it. Or they'll be told you can't write for anyone else on this particular subject, like celebrity gossip - hat's quite rare, and I don't know many people who've who are in that situation, most people just are just living commission to commission every week, like me not knowing what their incomes going to be, or what they're going to get commissioned to write. The problem is that every publication has its own payment processing system. I've had occasions where I've written, you know, this is invoice whatever, three, and I'd already sent them an invoice three. So because I failed to change that one number, they were three months late paying me, it's just really difficult to navigate all these different systems. So that's where this Facebook group comes in handy. Because you can go off and get the email someone in accounts, or you can figure out what to do. They'll give you advice, if you've got a dilemma where they're saying something that, you know, you're like how to respond to this thing. We don't need any more, and not not giving me any, or offering me a kill fee, which is 50% of what they've said they pay through no fault of your own, you've done exactly what they wanted, but for whatever reason, they don't run it. That often does happen, and so you can't read the article anymore. So then they say we'll pay you half of the money, but you've still done a hundred percent of the work.

Donna Ferguson 16:06 Yeah, no, that is really challenging. That Facebook group that you mentioned, sounds really good for the community, and we'll have to put that in the show notes below. So our listeners can check that out. Are there any other kind of support networks or communities that you would suggest for our listeners?

You know, obviously, this the Women in Journalism organisation, which I'm a member of the NUJ is fantastic. NUJ the National Union of Journalists, they will help you if you've got any issues with contracts, or late payments. Journo Resources, that's really good. That is a website that helps you with everything from pitching to kind of navigating the world of journalism in this jobs. It's got loads and loads of advice on that. So I actually set up a Facebook group with some other celebrity journalists, because that's one of the things I do - interview celebrities. That's only for freelancers. So that's a way of getting work. If you join that group, you'll find loads of publicists, looking for people to interview their celebrities, they have to be a celebrity journalists, freelance journalist to join, and that has to be sort of how you make your living. But if you do want to join, that's a great resource for freelancers.

Ben 19:07 One question that I've just thought of just now when you're talking about a lot of chasing late payments and sort of day rates and all this stuff. Is there a difference between national publications and sort of the more trade press that talk about, you know, individual, like sector or industry and how they deal with that problem?

Donna Ferguson 19:26 I think the trade press I mean, I don't really write for them, but I know people who do and they tend to be quite I think I'm right in saying this what I've heard quite good, because they really value their regular freelancers. But I'm sure that the rates they pay are not as high as nationals. So it's a bit of a swings and roundabouts. Sometimes people end up staying with a magazine that they don't necessarily love writing for like, I don't want to disparage one but say it's like crane weekly or something about, no, not that excited about cranes, but you still write into them because they pay you and it's straightforward and the editors respond. It's unfortunate that yes, for some of the Nationals though, they are often inundated with pitches, because everyone does wants to write for them, it can really be a struggle, but lots of people have broken into writing from the nationals. So I'd say it's worth doing. It's definitely not an easy industry to work in journalism from the pay side, I'm not gonna lie, but it's a really satisfying industry and rewarding industry. Because you do get to write things that make a difference. And when you find an editor who you really like and respect, as I've done my career, then you feel so lucky, and you have a really lovely collaborative relationship of, you know, they like what you write you like how they edit your words, it all comes together in this like, really nice way. So I don't want to put people off, but I definitely, yeah I definitely think it's a tough industry to work in.

Ben 21:08 So Donna, is there anything else you want to share with us about freelance journalism?

Donna Ferguson 21:12 Well, what I'd say is that they're there, you can also do shifts, where you get offered, say, a day of work and that's offered at a certain amount, and that can be a good way of getting a regular income. So for example, if you say I want to be on your list whenever you need someone to cover for a staff absence, or you just need some extra help, and then they can come to you and say, 'Well, would you be free to work these days?' or you might get a regular shift during say, on Monday at a place or something like that. And that can really help to just ease your mind about your bills, if you know, you've got that regular work, and you don't have to kind of pitch for every single thing, because you're just going to be able to show up that day and get told what to do. And I would also say that Women In Journalism, you know, we want to try and address some of these issues. So we would like to try to come up with a Freelance Charter if we can, that other publications that would sign up to, and that it would be a way of treating freelancers better. So hopefully, that is something that in the future will happen. The more that publications do publish their rates, the better. Also, there really should be a policy that kill fees should be abolished that you just - if you've agreed to pay someone for the work, and they've done the work, then you should pay them for the work. And also, I think it would be good if editors learn to give really upfront details about their payment processes. And to just be aware that freelancers really do need to get paid and kind of take care of their finances more. So they shouldn't ignore emails from freelancers chasing payments. And even if they're a bit sort of tensley worded, which I do advise against, it's never good to take that out on the editor. But, you know, perhaps they can be a bit understanding, because it is hard when you're owed thousands by different publications, and they're all being slow paying you. I also think we need more transparency in the industry because if it was clearer who the editors often are that commission things, and what they pay all those things, and you wouldn't need to ask, you wouldn't necessarily feel like, worried about getting what you deserved.

Orla 23:48 And finally, if you had to pick three things that you found useful or inspiring for your own freelancing career, what would they be? And why?

Donna Ferguson 23:57 My daughter's the one that springs to mind is the most inspiring person because she was what led me on my freelance career. And she's the person that I think about when I think, okay, is this worth it for me take this job on or like, you know, it's time with her that I'm effectively tying up in my mind. And that's quite a good way of making sure I don't accept sort of poorly paid work. I knew that most of the time early on in my career, I was still spending a lot of time looking after her. And I wanted the, the hours that I was working in the mornings and the snatched afternoons. I wanted those to count. I wanted to be doing something that I cared about and that writing for The Guardian and The Observer. That was always my dream. And I put so much effort and time into writing those articles and that's why I won awards. So I think, you know, in some ways that she's, she's really inspired a lot of good things that have happened in my, in my career. Just looking around my office and I'd say, you know what's really nice is to get like a nice plant. You have a really nice plant in your office like the nice thing about being freelance is you can just like you know, you can get yourself a nice office chair, you can get yourself a foot rest and rest for the mouse and make sure you're really comfortable. Because you're investing in your in your self. And you're your own boss, your own HR, you're in IT sports and you can spend that money and make sure you're comfortable but also get a plant because it just brightens up the office. And you know, when you're having a bad day or a bad email exchange with somebody not paying you sometimes you just want to look out the window and sort of go well, at least my plants doing well.

Ben 25:52 Thank you so much for coming on the show. Donna. It's been great speaking to you.

Donna Ferguson 25:57 Thank you.

Ben 26:01 That's it for this week's episode. You'll be able to find information on freelancing in the show notes below and on the freelance corner website.

Orla 26:08 Do you have a question about freelancing that you want us to put to an expert? Drop us an email at content@freelancecorner.co.uk. We'd love to hear your queries.

Ben 26:19 If you enjoyed the show, make sure you follow us so you don't miss out on our next episode. You can find us on all major platforms and just let us know we should quiz an expert on next time.