00:01.52
mother courage
Ah.

00:01.86
talalaban
We live.

00:05.19
alexei sayle
Hello everybody and welcome to latest podcast So this is a taal initiated podcast we were I was around at Tal's house the other day. Yeah, we hang out as well as do podcasts together where when I.

00:14.92
talalaban
Yeah, we do then we were playing craps against the wall. Yeah.

00:22.49
alexei sayle
Roundy yeah yes, broken cigars we're actually round at your sisters out and we were talking about how this podcast had taken us where not before time into discussing issues around palestine and your sister I think or both of you suggested we should have Adam on who's a family friend and now.

00:39.69
talalaban
No no someone me and my sister both follow online ah because we're me and my sister both obviously very passionate about um freedom for Palestine and the whole movement and so when we see really.

00:41.49
alexei sayle
Ah, you for you music all right.

00:48.69
mother courage
Is.

00:56.35
talalaban
Great coverage and passionate discourse about it online. We we always look up who's talking and and um and Adam Bruenberg is one of those people who basically is fearless and has been to palestine many times and and.

01:16.10
talalaban
Takes um, really good camera with Him. He's a visual artist and photographer and he does great coverage and and candid ah video capture out there and and spends time with palestinians and and kind of documents their experience from their point of view in a way. But you don't see very often. So yeah, me and my sister love this guy's feed and she suggested our dinner that we get him on.

01:42.17
alexei sayle
Right? right? Okay, well hi Adam is here now and while je it' like you as you suggested before we start recording me should just jump right in. So let's jump right in and tell you tell us.

01:46.49
mother courage
Hello.

01:59.21
alexei sayle
Yeah, story Really I suppose.

02:00.78
mother courage
Or maybe just to also um, slightly complicated well describe my particular ministtroi that makes me up which gives me a very particular podium from which to. Speak about these issues which is ah first I come from a holocaust-sur surviving family on both sides. Ah Lithuanian Ashkenazi Chose who managed to just sneak in or sneak out of that region in the 30 s.

02:35.82
mother courage
Um I don't think there was much of a choice but they didn't win the lottery because they landed up in South Africa which so I grew up. Ah I was born in 1970 into an apartheid South Africa so here you have.

02:41.31
alexei sayle
Friend.

02:54.44
mother courage
Um, um, you know jewish jewish family member of a big jewish community. There were two hundred and fifty Thousand Odd jews who who came out of there. Um, um, and my parents for some odd reason sent me to a jewish. Religious zionist school from the age of 6 so I mean imagine this just close your eyes and imagine it's 1985, you're a fifteen year old. It's it's like that's a rough time for anybody. Ah, but and somebody asked to.

03:20.00
talalaban
Whoa.

03:31.37
mother courage
You to describe your identity and you are a white heterosexual Cis um, Zionist ah jewish man ah could could you have a worse possible. Ah.

03:45.59
alexei sayle
E.

03:48.40
mother courage
Ah, pickup line. So um, but I was fortunate enough to have to have been ah, a terrible mistake 7 years after what my parents had determined was their last child so I had 3 older siblings who.

03:50.75
talalaban
Um.

04:06.88
mother courage
Um, who were politically engaged and got me involved in the anti-apartheid struggle at the age of 15 um and you realize going to this zionist school I was being fed the lines of. You know, ah Israel being a land without people for a people without land that the jews were making the the desert bloom my grandmother having such firsthand experience of the holocaust and you know.

04:36.40
talalaban
Meaning.

04:44.65
mother courage
Visibly traumatized from it. Although I think this stuff passes down. But um, you know and I it's interesting to think about language I grew up in a house that spoke I mean these toxic fights between my mother and my grandmother in yiddish right.

04:47.59
alexei sayle
Um, absolutely and.

05:03.69
mother courage
And um I don't know Alex if you speak any yiddish or or you.

05:08.84
alexei sayle
A few words really my mother was was was grew up in ah in in an entirely yiddish speaking household. But as she didn't really pass on I find myself strangely using more yiddish words in the last few years I don't quite know why then? but i'll.

05:14.47
mother courage
Right? Well much? yeah.

05:25.68
alexei sayle
I'll tell you know I'll so I'll say you know what's this Mishi gas and you know so and words like that in a apart from now I don't really know anything.

05:29.81
mother courage
You Ah, that's probably um I think that's called Senilityity you're losing your yeah but um, no my my mother was never.

05:39.22
talalaban
Um, and gaf up and.

05:40.20
alexei sayle
I'll revert into yeah to.

05:45.14
mother courage
My mother was never called by her name. Um my grandmother called a shtick flysmis fire eigen which is a piece of meat with 2 eyes and um and ah, but um, the reason I'm talking about it is is um so at home there was yiddish at school.

05:52.66
alexei sayle
First. Okay.

06:03.34
mother courage
2 2 languages I would taught I was taught as my two second languages were Hebrew and africanfs I mean can you imagine like the 2 worst languages of oppression on the planet right? These are my 2 second languages right? Um, but but.

06:14.28
talalaban
If.

06:16.27
alexei sayle
Ah.

06:21.76
mother courage
Ah, but but the kind of ah the bright side of the story is that at 15 when ah suddenly the kind of because we were being told the same thing at school about apartheid system in South Africa is that if this ended that would be the demise of white people in South Africa the minute that that. That ah infrastructure and you know and set of laws ended that was the end of us. So the minute the minute the the kind of ideological narrative of apartheid started to kind of ah collapse around me. Ah.

06:47.48
talalaban
M.

06:50.60
alexei sayle
Um, yeah.

07:01.30
mother courage
Ah, found the same started happening to me in these jewish studies classes where I was being fed very similar succinct lines about the reason why the state of Israel is out avian.

07:11.78
alexei sayle
Because you show you because a lot of Jews were also involved in the anti-apartheid struggle weren't they the slowvos and so on so your parents won but weren part of that your brothers some.

07:20.88
mother courage
Well you say a lot so I was I was in Rwanda very shortly after the genocide and I met this remarkable woman called Riva Adler and Riva explained she was interviewing the hutu perpetrators and she said to me. Survivors of genocide have women encounter injustice. They have 1 of 2 responses but 99% of them hide under the table because they're so afraid of power and what power can do less than 1% will stand up on the table but that that 1% will will scream.

07:49.24
alexei sayle
Moon.

07:57.79
talalaban
A.

07:58.71
mother courage
Bloody murder and those are the Joe slovos and those are the sidney kentridges and those are the those are the progressives that we know you know, but to be honest and this is really important is that you know my family went from bottom feeders as as.

08:04.31
alexei sayle
M.

08:17.90
mother courage
Jews you know who were who were like that Woody Allen joke you remember in Annie Hall where he he says to Annie Hall where did you get that tennis racket and she said oh it was a gift from my grandmother and he said ah my grandmother was too busy getting raped by Cossacks to give me birthday presents. But um.

08:36.34
alexei sayle
But.

08:37.99
mother courage
Like it was I don't know how got diverted into that and we probably shouldn't mention Woody Islanden anyway but um, but what I'm trying to say is that? Ah, but um, what I'm trying to say is my parents.

08:44.37
alexei sayle
Well, that's another question wasn't it with that's all other debates about you know.

08:56.25
mother courage
Um, and ah when they really enjoyed the change of identity from being jews to being white and I'd say about 249000 out of the 250000 jews who arrived on those shores.

09:01.34
alexei sayle
Yes, yes.

09:15.20
mother courage
Took full advantage of the um of the utter corruption that that was apartheid and access to the immense wealth that that corruption offered given the the mineral and wealth of that country.

09:23.47
talalaban
Ah.

09:33.42
alexei sayle
Okay, so so ah, well yeah, ah, but go on with your story I First yeah, but your brothers were politically engaged I mean they yeah.

09:39.21
mother courage
While on with my story is that is that? Um, ah I got 2 brothers and a sister who were well the the 2 brothers were politically engaged I've got a sister who lives in Israel so that further complicates stuff right.

09:54.76
alexei sayle
Christmas must be a terrible time. You have apart from the fact that you don't celebrate it. But.

09:57.29
mother courage
But yeah, um I mean um, we just buried my mother three weeks ago and um I've got to say sunning so she lived in London ah we all live on different continents because of the the sheer force of my mother's.

10:04.84
alexei sayle
Turn.

10:16.61
mother courage
Ah, personality it. It kind of it blew us apart. But um, we came together and it was very beautiful. We've all grown up and forgiven one another. But um, but it is difficult doing what I do which is spend. Maybe. Every second month in Hebron in Palestine running an ngo with ah with a very well-known palestinian activist called Issa Amro and sending you know, um firsthand not not written things and not particularly. Ah. Incisive just firsthand visual reports of what what's going on and um, that's very confrontational for for for her her and family her husband fought in shatila in Lebanon my.

10:59.10
talalaban
Who.

11:07.80
talalaban
Who your sister it's about.

11:12.40
mother courage
Yeah, my sister's husband and my nephew was in the special forces. So last may he was involved in. You know when they went into gaza so this is not easy stuff to navigate. But. Um, but somehow we manage and I want to emphasize that that you know if we can manage to kind of maintain the love and and be able to talk these things through um, you know, not exactly camp David but it's um, but it's.

11:46.72
mother courage
We do it.

11:47.86
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah, that's ah, a remarkable lesson Also a remarkable I Think what you're saying is that there's also ah the implication of what you're saying is also that those attempts to shut down precisely the kind of debate that you and your family engage in are wrong.

12:04.12
mother courage
Well yeah, what? what? what would the outcome be I would lose a sister and so I think if we if we if we take that as a metaphor for the Jewish Community at large it's like shutting these debates down means we lose each other.

12:04.90
alexei sayle
Really, which is that me right.

12:20.37
talalaban
O.

12:21.15
alexei sayle
Right? Yeah, It's a very that's a very powerful point I think I mean so I mean I guess we got to return to how you came to be where you are now what was that what was that kind of journey I Hate I using Genuine I find myself using it frequently. I Mean we're ah thank you has very kind but.

12:40.19
mother courage
Well, you don't yeah it sounds different when Russell Brand says it than you do thank god but but um, ah well I don't know what my journey is an old ones I left South Africa just

12:45.94
talalaban
Make.

12:57.76
mother courage
It was still there was still apartheid there was still a conscription I then ah landed up for about six months living in a squat on doston lane and then somehow ah I'll get to that? Yeah, but um, but then then the next.

13:06.75
alexei sayle
If you've been back there recently there right? Yeah changed a lot.

13:11.23
talalaban
Who.

13:17.60
mother courage
Kind of decade was in italy and and what happened is I watched italy get taken over by Berlusconi and laguenat and you know he bought up all the media and you watched the kind of I mean italian cinema was still being made before he came in and then like the media degraded to like these. Botox one- line you know revolted basically the kind of populous language that then happened so I left there went to England and then and and then stayed there 15 years until some thing called Brexit came along.

13:38.53
talalaban
Um, yeah.

13:54.73
mother courage
And um I think I it maybe it's ah ah, ah, a fungus that I carry but um, well the the the neoliberal fascist fungus and um.

13:54.75
alexei sayle
It's your fault and everywhere you move. It gets worse.

13:55.43
talalaban
Yeah, yeah.

14:04.81
talalaban
Um.

14:09.48
alexei sayle
Yes.

14:10.82
talalaban
Um, yeah.

14:14.72
mother courage
So I literally it was two days after the referendum and I had an exhibition here and asked the people at the table. How difficult would it be to find a place for two kids in a school in an apartment and we were we moved. Two weeks later with 3 bags and we haven't left um, but that's not yeah in Berlin but that's not the end of the story and I've got to say berlin's been very very generous and kind. It's been um, it's a very forgiving place. It's it's got a sense of community and social responsibility and.

14:34.60
alexei sayle
To where you are now which is berlin.

14:50.20
mother courage
You know? but um I mentioned my mother passing away and I was kind of cut off from from all kinds of media and I got back to Berlin and to these um, kind of panic messages from people I really respect who wouldn't necessarily alarm me saying. Um. Adam you need to respond to these allegations that are in did zeit in tuds in in basically in every newspaper in Germany which came from um.

15:24.24
mother courage
Ah, a person who occupies a position in the senate called the commissioner of anti-semitism and he called me in these numerous publications in in summary, a hateful anti-semite who is. Boycotting advocates for boycotting Israel and does not um, does not stop at suggesting terrorism against jews. Okay now.

15:52.28
alexei sayle
Is this is this present jus themselves or they.

15:57.48
mother courage
Well, he converted very recently. Okay, but I okay so I mean yeah, can you like I mean obviously you know my first instinct is.

15:59.57
alexei sayle
Oh k.

16:02.21
talalaban
Can you imagine you fucking imagine.

16:14.16
mother courage
Do you think you can convert into a lineage of trauma this long and this deep by I said you know I didn't want to ask him? Well I would like to see his penis actually but anyway, but but um, what I want to do is avoid.

16:25.84
alexei sayle
With.

16:32.44
mother courage
This becoming a kind of provincial conversation about a petty bourgeois bureaucrat and and me you know we're talking about much bigger stuff here and I think that's the opportunity is that um you know these very heavy. Ah.

16:40.44
alexei sayle
Um, yeah.

16:51.71
mother courage
Libelous remarks because at at this point in time Germany understands me as anti-semitic terrorist. Um, so but but this is and I haven't ah today is the first time that.

16:54.15
alexei sayle
Um.

16:58.54
alexei sayle
Right? 3

17:03.24
talalaban
Michael.

17:10.17
mother courage
Um I will have had the right to reply there's there's an interview in in DZeit which is where he was interviewed a few weeks ago and in Berlin and zait to him coming out both today where I am I was given for the first chance a rite of reply.

17:18.40
talalaban
He.

17:28.53
alexei sayle
But what.

17:29.73
mother courage
You know I've I've been like muzzled. Yeah yeah.

17:30.69
talalaban
Um, and you've already done the interview and and but hasn't been published yet so you don't know what they're keeping in or or how how much they'll edit it.

17:39.40
mother courage
I Do I No I I did it on condition that I could see the final version because I don't trust them.

17:48.45
talalaban
Ah, ah.

17:48.68
alexei sayle
So I mean what's just what what have you done that specifically that provoked these allegations.

17:59.62
mother courage
I have I mean of course I've consistently my I'm an artist I use photography I was a professor of art in hamburg university um, for the last six years of all my work is around. Um.

18:16.60
mother courage
Human rights issues. So not only palestine although in in 2004 along with my former work partner. Ah we did a ah book with um someone called Ayal Weizman who is one of the kind of strong um israeli kind of voices of the left or former israeli. And um, this book really analyzed and picked apart. How Israel uses particular so visual strategies to communicate its narrative for instance, um, this idea of making the desert bloom.

18:46.98
talalaban
Man left.

18:52.99
alexei sayle
Yes.

18:55.24
mother courage
We worked with ah with ah the head of bitsalel architectural school whose Ph D was to superimpose all those forests you see the pine forests ah over the.

19:05.39
alexei sayle
Um.

19:07.61
mother courage
500 are destroyed arab villages from from 1948 and there was a clear correspondence and that is a strategy that was well-p practiced by the poles and the germans so the the zionists learned that trick because within 10 minutes if after. Planting a pine forest. It looks like it's been there since the Jurassic period and the rocks look like they've been there since um, Jesus was there. You know they're not They're not They're not evidence of a crime. So.

19:28.92
alexei sayle
Right.

19:29.80
talalaban
Please.

19:37.94
alexei sayle
No no.

19:42.80
mother courage
And and then we ah exhibited this in New York at the time tooth. But in 2005 and there's a character called Ronald Lauder you know of the este lauder family who um is immensely powerful. He he. Ah. He was once known for for paying the most money for a painting ever. And yeah, um, it was bought on auction and it started at a relatively low price and he bid against 1 other person till it reached the highest ever figure paid and you know who that other person was.

20:15.16
alexei sayle
And.

20:17.90
mother courage
His brother I think that says everything about the guy you want to know apart from the fact that um, apart from the fact that unlike his mother who struggled with her identity as a jew he as ah, he's taken on his jewish identity as. A protector of the states of Israel and that is his kind of monolithic idea of what it means to be a jew and he accused us or the museum of accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing and so I found myself in a court case with.

20:50.41
alexei sayle
Right? I.

20:50.74
talalaban
Wow.

20:56.30
mother courage
Ronald louder and his ste louder billions and I really haven't had a career in America since not not that I regret it.

21:04.55
alexei sayle
You do pay a price though. Don't you for advocating for palestine I Think that's one of the things that you know.

21:08.75
mother courage
Well I mean look at this I am I've been warned not to go to any public events. Yeah.

21:17.43
alexei sayle
Really I mean not my I'm pretty and informed about Germany but my senses from the other things I read that that that um in the last few years Germany has become much more repressive towards. Ah, because Berlin has actually got the largest palestinian population in what I don't know we're certainly in Germany ah, but um, that that that it um, did that um the authorities in Germany have bought. And very enthusiastically to the idea of the new anti-semitism and left anti-semitism and all that crap you know.

21:56.15
mother courage
Well, ah I think that's a bit like saying um wow Israel's government's getting you know much more fascist I mean it's like it's incremental, but it's basically been the same line. You know I mean.

22:02.43
alexei sayle
This.

22:08.22
alexei sayle
Ready get.

22:11.16
mother courage
Yeah Ben Gurion I mean if you had to read the statements of Ben Guion was he was like we've got to get these people out of here. You know it's like they they were much more right? wing than Ben Guvi or netanyahu or whatever I mean the this government's just but just being more honest and they're less savvy about dealing with the press. That's all I just like no no, no. Ah, we're both. Ah, but but um, but yeah about Israel and I think now Germany's always had the staunch line where and it and.

22:29.98
alexei sayle
What who we talk about jam in the ors right.

22:46.94
mother courage
And this is the confusion for me and this is the crux of it really and this is what I tried to get across in my response which is what did we learn from the shore. What did we learn from the holocaust. Ah, ah, there's 2 possible routes. We could take we could we could.

23:03.61
alexei sayle
Yes.

23:04.36
talalaban
A.

23:06.11
mother courage
Right? We have to by all means necessary protect the rights of human beings especially the most vulnerable because at that point in time the Jews the Homosexuals the Roma the.

23:14.97
talalaban
He.

23:22.79
talalaban
Um, disabled.

23:23.11
mother courage
You know were the most vulnerable. Okay, yeah, the other route and this is this is where I um, this is the the the problem I have with this other route which is that what we need to do to protect. The safety of jews is is to protect the nationate of Israel at all costs unconditionally and and now my argument is nation states. Do not have rights.

23:57.25
alexei sayle
Yes.

23:59.20
mother courage
Nation states are meant to guarantee the rights of the people that live within them and not at the expense of people who do not live within them and what we're doing is we are unconditionally supporting a state that is.

24:03.40
talalaban
Um, yeah.

24:17.80
mother courage
Very visibly denying the human rights of the most vulnerable people ah acting with full impunity and and against international law.

24:32.48
mother courage
And is this the lesson we're taking from the shore. That's what I want to say to the German government.

24:37.36
alexei sayle
Um, well yeah, well it is isn't it really I mean they are kind of thing anyway. So my cat wolf is ah trying to add to the recent year yeah

24:45.64
talalaban
I thought I heard will earlier. What's wolf's thoughts.

24:48.11
mother courage
Um, what is your what sides your cat on.

24:55.77
alexei sayle
Ah, he's I don't know he's pretty you know cats ah cats are ah but self-interested. Yeah, exactly.

25:00.33
talalaban
I gotta get a screenshot of that. Oh you put him down.

25:03.79
mother courage
I mean yeah cats are beholden to no one there a bit a little. Yeah, it's a little bit like the Uae you know it's like.

25:13.36
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah, well I was thinking in animal farm you know the cat I think represents the um the lumpen proletariat really and decide joins in and in the revolution. The animals revolution at the last minute but is essentially self-interested. Really I think that's that's ah that's Catt's kind of political position really and so as yeah, you know I think it just I tried to model myself on the cat in Animal Farm to a degree in myself. Ah i've.

25:40.32
mother courage
Ah, yeah, you haven't done very well.

25:42.75
talalaban
Every every few years. Ah, every few years you you get this sense that things are changing. Oh my god people are talking about Palestine in a new way. Oh my god people are starting to wake up and something's gonna change and then it completely fades away that feeling and then it comes back and then. And I think we're going through that again at the moment in the.

26:05.32
alexei sayle
Well I wouldn't say it I mean I think that it's yeah, you felt ah you know for? ah yeah, quite optimistic. You know startup Bds in the early two thousand s and you definitely sensed. Ah you know that people were you know I think any decent person really.

26:21.15
alexei sayle
I think any decent person thinks there's something wrong with Israel really if they if if they know the truth but ah, but then I think massive action is taken to counteract that. Yeah mean you think of the but I think Pes you think of the extraordinary lies and the extraordinary.

26:29.83
talalaban
Yeah.

26:38.57
alexei sayle
Energy that's taken to discrediting Bds you know boycott divestments and sanctions you know, ah an entirely nonviolent protest movement and the the hateful rhetoric that is directed towards those who support it like Adam is is.

26:45.70
talalaban
Yeah, yeah.

26:57.14
alexei sayle
Extraordinary in its ferocity because they I think you know the people who supports israeli apartheid don't you know, know know in a way that that if the if the truth gets out then if. People are allowed to see the reality if they're allowed to protest peacefully then they're in trouble I don't know what you feel about that Adam.

27:17.82
mother courage
I mean ah you know I grew up in South africa so that I was a student in the late eighty s that was the height of the struggle. So if if we don't I think one of the problems is like Bds has become like people some.

27:26.99
alexei sayle
Yeah.

27:35.78
mother courage
You'll speak to many people who don't even know what it stands for boycott diverse sanctions and it's like the ah Rfd in in Germany you just know it's like these are right-wing fucking nazis ah, but but ah you know ah sanctions

27:39.13
alexei sayle
Um, yeah, but.

27:52.81
mother courage
There there was no moral awakening suddenly in the late 80 s in South Africa you know I mean Thatcher and Reagan were massive supporters of apartheid what happened is ah you know the the moral compass turned towards the country towards the country.

28:00.43
talalaban
D.

28:10.28
mother courage
Massive the banks and industry and culture agreed upon a process of sanction and divestment and in the late 80 s the government was absolutely broken had no choice but to sit down like mensches and and negotiate with the a and c and.

28:25.93
alexei sayle
This.

28:28.81
mother courage
And when like you said, let's not even call it Bds let's call it boycott divestment and sanction because it's not a movement. It's a strategy and it's a strategy that was suggested during the second intifada as a peaceful means of resistance and the second intifada was very violent.

28:38.96
talalaban
Is.

28:43.20
alexei sayle
Absolutely yeah.

28:48.45
mother courage
So I agree with you and then this place is worse because in 2019 they they they tried to make it in the bundestak they tried to make it first of all a hate crime making it anti-semittic now they it was challenged and. It was found to be unconstitutional, but the echoes of that attempt have leaked out and there was an atmosphere in Germany that Bds is illegal right? and it's not.

29:15.27
talalaban
M.

29:17.65
alexei sayle
Um, yes.

29:22.59
alexei sayle
Um, yet.

29:22.88
talalaban
I Think that kind of exists here as well. A thing are that feeling.

29:24.93
mother courage
And so I you know I've I've got this right? I mean I just think um I um I made these um hoodies it says like Bds is my kink. It's um, yeah, yeah.

29:38.00
talalaban
I.

29:39.12
alexei sayle
Um, fixed.

29:41.66
mother courage
It works well in in Berlin I've got to say.

29:43.20
alexei sayle
So What's so what? I mean what do you?? Think's going to happen with I mean I have I can't imagine what really I don't know what you you feel I've only I mean the the attempts. That have been made to sense of me are have been incredibly mild really and I did you know I had tremendous support so I have not I have got involved in the odd who are not connected with nothing to do with um. Anti apartheid stuff but I remember it made me feel terrible. Really I mean just to have yourself misrepresented so very I don't know how do you feel about this. What's going on with your life at the moment. Um, where you think what's going to happen really.

30:31.73
mother courage
Um, I feel I'm not sure whether it's more testimony to a life of absolute privilege as ah as a white man you know I walked for 52 years feeling very safe through. Incredibly unsafe places in this world and and you know that's mostly testimony to my skin color and my privilege. But I've got to say that I feel scared of of going out into the street in Germany now.

30:54.56
alexei sayle
Welsh up.

31:03.52
alexei sayle
Yeah.

31:06.12
mother courage
And and as a jew having just buried my mother who had such fresh kind of trauma around the holocaust to to be back here and to see this this kind of rise of this fierce. Kind of fascist thing which which I've been running away from my whole life. You know in the form of apartheid in the form of ah berlusconis like northern league and then and then and then Brexit which you know and and. And and the anti-semitism that was also embedded in Brexit I mean look at that book that that so that um Boris Johnson wrote you know I could smell the fascism on the on the on in the air when that when they started speaking about that Referendum and then.

31:50.11
alexei sayle
Yes.

31:54.36
talalaban
In.

32:00.74
mother courage
Now to be in Germany and feel like fuck way because you know if I had to try and get a professorship here I mean that's that's what I do. That's how I feed my children I teach I cannot do it because.

32:12.70
alexei sayle
Yeah.

32:18.32
mother courage
As a professor. You're also part of that you're your civil servant. So it's not only my livelihood but also my sense of well-being and security. Um ah feels very compromised I feel quite I will feel relieved when these.

32:20.83
alexei sayle
Right.

32:37.29
mother courage
Um, various interviews come out hopefully this evening or whenever they do because to feel muzzled to be able to not not not to respond to these like vicious um accusations is ah is an awful feeling.

32:44.99
alexei sayle
Yes.

32:51.40
alexei sayle
So he just made accusations in the paper or or using his official position. He has also taken action against you in other ways as well or is that.

33:00.64
mother courage
I know I mean but but but but but I mean being called ah ah you know being called ah, having committed hate crime in the form of anti-semitism and and and um. Advocating for terrorism against Jews Those are not light allegations to be made by a member of senate and so that that's plenty and he's done. It. He's done it in you know 10 or more publications. Um, so.

33:19.70
alexei sayle
Right.

33:33.25
mother courage
Um, but but but the thing is I know you know, but but but and I need to say this my fight's not against this nebbish. You know this little schmick. Ah, and also my fight is not I'm not here to change the psyche of Germany or or so point out how they've kind of.

33:33.66
talalaban
Yes, alright.

33:52.49
mother courage
Ah, in Sakaana Analytical terms like the split that's happened which has made them not deal with the holocaust where they think they are right? That's not that's not my mention my mission is and that's going to sound really odd but you've heard of the term the right to.

33:59.63
alexei sayle
Yes, what.

33:59.66
talalaban
A.

34:09.32
alexei sayle
Yes.

34:09.64
mother courage
The right of return I would like the right of return because you know if you said to me where would you want to go next Adam I would like to go next to a place. Let's call it. But Israel palestine or let's call it palace a place that is a democratic space where respects universal human rights regardless of their religion. Their ethnicity. Their wra.

34:36.48
alexei sayle
Yeah, and yes would not be amazing thing you know? Yes yes I agree that would be there. You know that would be such a beautiful dream wouldn't it try to allow.

34:37.63
talalaban
He.

34:42.70
mother courage
And and that I want that right of return.

34:47.55
talalaban
It's I was just thinking about I've been noticing I've been noticing on on Youtube you know you get the Youtube adverts before you watch your video that you've clicked on and there's a really big push of these holidays in Tel Aviv adverts and they've got these 2 ah it begins with these two like incredibly young trendy cool kids. Yeah and like a boy and a girl and the girl has like rainbow dyed hair and she starts to add but by going hey yo ah you want to go to a holiday where it's.

35:06.59
mother courage
The thing.

35:07.24
alexei sayle
Um, please yes, but.

35:24.41
talalaban
It's fun. Vibrant, modern and hip and cool and then she's doing like some break dancing on a rock and then it's like come to Tel Aviv there's beaches and it's it's and it's modern and and liberal and all that and that dead like and and the whole time I'm thinking you've just put it in words that that I was feeling um, like.

35:31.49
mother courage
Um, yeah.

35:43.26
talalaban
Um, like how can you like consider that a holiday knowing the political backdrop of where you're going who would go on a relaxing holiday to a to a place that has such weight in the air. You know of this and they really they just it just it just.

35:57.90
alexei sayle
But well a lot of people because they don't know. Do they you know the truth is kept from them.

36:00.92
talalaban
Struck me.

36:04.51
mother courage
But um, you know I was I was talking to taleal just before you came on here and I was I was saying you know? Ah I had the psychiatrist stroke psychoanalyst who who. Was in Vienna for a while was a remarkable guy and he he hate this word diagnosis but he was like he said you've got something that we call proto suicide right? He um, he said you willingly put yourself in the line of danger and.

36:34.41
alexei sayle
Yes.

36:37.30
mother courage
He wasn't He wasn't talking about it in a noble way. He wasn't saying like it's your moral compass that does that he was questioning it. But but let's not go into the the drives behind it. Let's just face that I do have it and luckily.

36:42.24
alexei sayle
Yes, right.

36:54.99
mother courage
Most of the time I use it for political causes as opposed for literally just standing in front of a train but um, but so I've been spending more and more time in Hebron and and Hebron is the reason why hebron is because you know Ramallah is full of cultural.

37:00.17
talalaban
A v.

37:05.80
alexei sayle
Ah.

37:13.93
mother courage
Kind of programs artists residencesidencies a bethleham has a few um hebron is a wasteland and but you spend 10 minutes 15 minutes in Hebron and you get the notion of apartheid occupation. Ah.

37:20.39
alexei sayle
Right.

37:32.15
mother courage
And jewish supremacy you get it and nobody has to utter the words because ah, you know me ah Isa and I me as a Jew Issa as a palestinian we have to take separate roads to his house Issa is subject to military law.

37:42.85
alexei sayle
Right.

37:43.41
talalaban
Are.

37:48.53
mother courage
Whereas being as a jew I'm subject to normal civil law of the state of Israel I mean I could go on but I just want to say 1 thing is that the last time I was there was about six weeks ago and I was saying to Talal I've been to dangerous places. You know as like a so-called like documentary photographer in the beginning I went to you know like maximum security jails with 30000 people or you know I went to Afghanistan in 2003 in Iraq 2005 like some kind of much of. Hero whatever but that the the 2 times I felt most existentially physically and and really a threat of death was in hebron about two months ago where I was we were we went there to take pictures of um. Olive trees. You know olive trees in that area are between 2000 and and up to 4000 years old right? and not only are they of great. Oh yeah, four thousand five hundred years old there's one

38:46.45
talalaban
A tree can be that old.

38:48.38
alexei sayle
Ah.

38:50.64
alexei sayle
Good.

38:56.84
mother courage
Think about think about the change of power that that those those trees have seen from the ottomans to the to the to the um crusaders to the you know and ah like anyway what does since 1967 the settlers have have.

39:05.50
talalaban
Yeah.

39:05.32
alexei sayle
Romans.

39:14.56
mother courage
Destroyed 1000000 of these trees. So part part of our project is to focus on how to preserve and protect these trees and um, ah so we were there well on one of my first visits we saw smoke coming from one of the trees down.

39:16.23
alexei sayle
This.

39:33.57
mother courage
Below and we ran and what what they do is they pour gasoline down the center of these giant trunks. But so by the time you see the smoke Essentially the tree's dead and I think this project speaks beautifully to anyone including my late mother who was like a diehards erinist because. Who who on Earth who felt a genuine attachment to a land who felt a biblical right to that land who felt a love of it as ah as a sanctified space who would destroy its oldest, indigenous.

39:58.29
talalaban
And.

40:06.44
talalaban
H.

40:11.67
mother courage
Citizen That's not a person who loves that land. That's a person who's driven by hate and the reason is is because the olive trees is of totemic importance to the palestinians. But also it's an immensely important crop.

40:27.30
talalaban
E.

40:28.44
mother courage
Right? It delivers its its its yield is huge so could to cut a long story short we I was there with this 5 ah 8 by 10 giant camera. You know im slowly taking a picture and then what happens is the settlers. The jury settlers in hebron they send these packs of kids.

40:46.47
mother courage
You were talking about the lord of the flies try like one hundred kids right ranging from the age of 5 to 17 dressed in their yamulkas and sits it full kind of religious garb with. Sticks metal sticks, wooden sticks stones right? and um and they are accompanied by members of the ios the the israeli military um and basically we kept on getting attacked by these kids and what what I've just had just enough training to know that you cannot lift a finger because they're minor. So if I so much as pushback. Ah I would if I was palestinian and I pushed back I'd be shot on the spot. The fact that I'm jewish.

41:27.28
alexei sayle
Good.

41:37.29
mother courage
I'd be I'd be removed right? The work would be over or I'd be whatever. So but I got ah got you know I got I got pretty badly beaten and there's footage of it. Um. Several times and a few days later I returned to Berlin and it happened to be the the anniversary of crystal nacht which is you know, widely known as the kind of beginning of the holocaust essentially in Berlin and ah the memorials held on the site of these 2 the oldest.

42:02.91
alexei sayle
In e.

42:10.44
mother courage
Synagogues that were burned down now I arrived there with a crew who um, you know we made these posters Jews against fascism everywhere. This guy comes out to me and big guy I mean I'm um, you know, um, um, um.

42:29.80
mother courage
Um, ah, um, ah I'm a short Jew You know this is this is a fucking told youw and big and he comes up to me like looking down at me and he's like get rid of those signs and I'm like I said ah I said.

42:33.91
talalaban
The.

42:47.68
mother courage
What's going on. He said who gave you the right to be I said the death of 90% of my family at at the hands of this country I think that's that's Charlie's golden take care if you ask me and then he said get rid of the sign I said hang on let's break this down what what.

42:57.88
alexei sayle
Right? well.

42:58.79
talalaban
In here.

43:06.30
mother courage
Troubles you about the sign because it says jews against fascism everywhere I said are you anti-semitic. He said no I'm a jew I said are you a fascist he said no no, no, you know I said so the word everywhere bothers you and and I said I said. Can I ask you funny have you got this kind of like weird Synesthesia thing where you read everywhere and it says Israel. Do you think I'm applying that there's the possibility that Israel could also have fascist ah ah person traits.

43:30.98
alexei sayle
Yes.

43:40.22
talalaban
Um, ten in.

43:43.54
mother courage
At which point he started attacking me at which point I ran because ah you know I may be pro-suicidal but I'm not I not I don't know I don't have courage and yeah, you know where I sought refuges with the fucking German police and down the irony of a Jew being.

43:54.42
alexei sayle
Um, ah fully yourself. Yeah.

44:00.64
alexei sayle
The.

44:02.56
mother courage
Like feeling that his life's threatened by another Jew and and and is seeking protection from the German police. It's just this has been the most surreal trip of my life.

44:10.68
alexei sayle
Yes, how? Um how so have your friends been. How's it been have. You felt a lot of support from there's ranch you.

44:23.92
mother courage
Um, that's a good question I Yeah um, first of all my kids are young. So I've what what I've I've tried to keep as much of this from them as possible. Really? um, um, but it it it.

44:26.51
alexei sayle
If I may ask I do know? yeah.

44:34.94
talalaban
M.

44:41.41
mother courage
Ah, it it has revealed people's ah people who some of whom have ah ah have assumed ah where friends and allies have disappeared. Yeah.

44:56.14
alexei sayle
Yes, that's kind of what I was in yeah is that is that? Ah, that's one of the things I is is very that's one of the prices they make you pay. That's you know it's very difficult to deal with I think.

44:59.81
mother courage
And.

45:10.60
mother courage
Because these peoples you know by association their their livelihoods or safety is also would be threatened and but I so it's been um I got to say I mean but the but that those who do stick by you are like.

45:14.57
talalaban
Yeah.

45:28.30
alexei sayle
Um, yeah.

45:28.35
mother courage
Hard and fast. So at the same time and I've got like lovely messages from people abroad. You know what I mean like amazing, but it's quite easy to send a message on Whatsapp you know or like but but no, but is that is meaningful honestly, it's like amazing. But.

45:32.64
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah.

45:44.90
alexei sayle
Ah, there and sometimes I don't know but sometimes people come people, you wouldn't expect to be supportive of of the mens as it were are you know I don't know if you found that as well. Really.

45:54.24
mother courage
I Actually really have found that and yeah, but but it does feel a bit lonely and alienating and it's like you know there's snow out on the street and it's like it's It's the weirdest thing. So first like I'll just.

45:58.70
alexei sayle
The.

46:05.27
alexei sayle
Um, yes.

46:14.70
mother courage
Every time I've got second thoughts like about going outside, you know, like yeah I want to play in the slower.

46:15.74
talalaban
Where you want to go out and play play in the snow. Yeah well I'm sorry to I'm sorry about.

46:22.83
alexei sayle
I Mean how do you think it will go from here I mean yeah.

46:29.10
talalaban
More I don't want Adam to say anything that will get him in trouble or anything because this is an ongoing case isn't it.

46:29.87
mother courage
Um, well let's see how let's see.

46:32.79
alexei sayle
Yeah, sure. Well obviously you've got a right of if you want to, we can send you a you don't have to you know you can have any write of editor editorial writes over this that you want obviously.

46:35.40
mother courage
Um, no, no, you know, um I mean I think um, let's see how this man responds to my response because.

46:45.11
talalaban
Um, of course.

46:53.66
mother courage
Ah, whereas his were like these baseless very libelous accusations I picked apart all his statements in a very legal and Juridical logical way. There was nothing personal. Um I don't. I don't I don't think he's the sharpest blade in the in the drawer and I don't I think if if he was smart he would apologize and he would retract here. Um, the last thing that I really won I've consulted very top lawyers. Who said this is you've There's definitely a libel case I mean this is like.

47:16.92
alexei sayle
E.

47:21.81
talalaban
The right of.

47:28.88
mother courage
You know, but they said we would do anything in our power not to put you through a german court case with the government like they will go through your life with a finetooth comb and it's like you do want to spend a year in the public eye and d and like I also you know.

47:40.86
alexei sayle
E.

47:48.51
mother courage
Like I'm a bit of an odd bore you know like if somebody's going to go through 52 years of my life with a particular lens. You know what a man they could narrate that life in a whole different way than it was intended. You know.

47:56.77
alexei sayle
Yeah, and absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and if they look at you in a malevolent. Yeah, it's it I mean they do They can do that with any anybody I mean that's another.

48:06.62
mother courage
Yeah.

48:13.38
mother courage
Ah, but then um I mean ah what you know where to next? ah in 2006

48:15.13
alexei sayle
The trick.

48:21.72
alexei sayle
Will they let you back into into pal. You think the Israelis will let you back into if you care they've been letting you in so far they were surprisingly.

48:28.87
mother courage
Oh oh,? um, oh surprising. But I think I think you know what? the Israelis are very good at doing is not not kicking up a fuss until. The activities of a person are actually enough of a threat because they don't want to draw attention to it where but so in terms of actions. What I'm doing is also like organizing people like I'm talking to like cat Power. You know the musician. Um, ah.

48:49.52
alexei sayle
Right.

48:59.96
alexei sayle
Oh.

49:04.78
mother courage
I don't want to mention all I just like sounds like name dropping but but a bunch of people who who you know because we've just would come ah for five days and we organizing the series of trips and and within that five days maybe they can play in a small venue if they're a musician or a writer can do a reading or.

49:04.88
talalaban
No.

49:22.10
alexei sayle
O.

49:24.50
mother courage
But under not your rest to do anything but just I think it's really important to show people who do have a kind of big influence. The reality on the ground because it's like it's it's yeah. You know what? all all of this talk is unnecessary when you're there. It's like.

49:41.42
alexei sayle
Yeah.

49:45.50
talalaban
Can we have you got any other stories of your experiences in Hebron or the world wider palestine that you might share with us because ah yeah I don't know I think that's that is the the important thing to talk about is you know what's.

49:56.14
mother courage
I mean um.

50:00.51
talalaban
Actually happening on the ground not like you said not these etty go on.

50:01.53
mother courage
Well I'll tell you I'll tell you funny I don't know if this sounds pretentious. yeah yeah I don't know if there's gonna sound pretentious but but but anyway, but um, um, was it the bubonic plague. I don't know the writer Michelle Foucault wrote about um how they had to construct these immense kind of um structures to contain the plague right? and then once the plague had gone they they were left with these structures.

50:30.44
talalaban
Um, yeah.

50:37.14
mother courage
And and what I have in my mind because I don't know if if if either of you have really been up to what's called the security war which is actually like a thirty foot four meter concrete this is not a fence. This is a fucking tsunami of concrete coming at you at a million miles an hour right that's what it feels like and.

50:43.95
alexei sayle
Now when.

50:53.29
talalaban
E.

50:57.90
mother courage
What? what? what they have done is they they have invented the plague by constructing the the but but by making the construction if you know what I mean and. This is the tragedy and this is the difference between apartheid South Africa and Apartheid Israel is that South Africa was so much more hopeful because despite the laws that forbade us from making love or writing plays together or. Hanging out together. You know or living together. We were mixed together just because you know there were cities and yeah and and there was like sensuality and attraction built into that kind of other othering right? whereas.

51:41.55
talalaban
E.

51:43.89
mother courage
For my nieces and nephews who have never met a palestinian because they are behind a thirty foot concrete like I don't know 700 kilometter long what what is it I mean I don't know how to describe this thing.

51:58.31
talalaban
E.

52:00.60
mother courage
Ah, on the other side of that is your worst possible projection of an enemy that your imagination can possibly conjure up. There's nothing. There's no desire. There's no attraction. There's no compulsion to there's no curiosity.

52:15.22
alexei sayle
No.

52:17.16
talalaban
Right? there. The.

52:18.20
mother courage
And it's and yeah and and you know the point is as as ah, as ah as a foreigner. it's it's it's so easy to go through the checkpoints you go you just drive through right and like I mean you know you you know the musician Nicholas Yar you know he's like his dad. Is an old friend alfredo ya who's ah, an artist friend who I always thought was chilean but actually is originally palestinian and Nicholas has gone back there and he's running workshops every week in Bethlehem and it's like there's a great scene. There.

52:54.76
talalaban
A.

52:56.40
mother courage
A Grace I mean and this is the other thing is this generation of palestinians tala you spoke about these moments of hope you know that have risen and you and you spoke about alexa you spoke about the beginnings of Bds this is a different moment. We've got a generation now who are like first of all, they. Have some of them of incredibly privileged have had ivy league educations are in touch with intersectional solidarity things. So when people talk about indigenous rights or black lives matter or lgbt qi you have to talk about Palestine right.

53:29.27
alexei sayle
Yes, yeah.

53:31.43
talalaban
Um, a.

53:31.57
mother courage
And also they fucking sexy I mean you got Bella Hadid right you got and and you and they talented and they like yeah man so it's like you know that there's no longer and I'm going to say this word. It's no longer the dirty arab.

53:34.13
talalaban
Yeah, yeah, Jenna Ortega

53:46.61
alexei sayle
Yeah.

53:49.39
mother courage
You know, no no, no, it's the sexiest fucking smartest person you have ever encountered.

53:53.73
talalaban
Yeah.

53:56.65
alexei sayle
That's why they fight so hard to yeah defend you know, toully that it was it. No no I think no no, no, no, no, no, not at all I Think what.

53:57.68
mother courage
Yeah, bear. Yeah yeah, sorry to be sound heavy. This is so heavy.

54:12.64
talalaban
I I think we needed this after last the last episode um know that the last episode was different. We we talked about palestine last week as well. But I wanted to go deeper into it I was I was that's why I was pushing for this chat here? Um, ah.

54:13.38
alexei sayle
You know what the fuck it. You've got extra? yeah.

54:19.14
mother courage
I mean I mean ah.

54:26.17
alexei sayle
Ah, ah now I think this I mean I I you make me feel very inadequate. Um, you know I.

54:29.69
talalaban
In.

54:33.57
mother courage
Inadequ and little man I mean um I need your help and and you need mine and that's what we need to do you know? um I wanted to say 1 thing because taal um.

54:39.81
alexei sayle
Um, yeah.

54:41.69
talalaban
You you.

54:49.27
mother courage
Ah, told me that you were a bertol Brecht fan. So the first thing is to say that I've I I've spent the better portion of months that you know the Brecht Benjamin archive is held in is is in Brecht's former apartment in Berlin have you ever been there.

54:50.84
alexei sayle
Yes.

55:08.60
alexei sayle
Um, now now Love okay.

55:08.81
mother courage
Yeah, well this is a formal invitation to come because I know the curator and you can just spend hours in there alone going through his wardrobe I don't know if that turns you on.

55:19.16
alexei sayle
Wow Yeah, yeah, it never occurred to me. But yeah.

55:23.56
talalaban
Um.

55:25.94
mother courage
Um, but but I made these 2 pieces of work 1 is um, you know he made this book called Crick's feeble um which was his kind of ah. He took cuttings from the newspaper during the second world war and he wrote these short poems underneath which to kind of decode the language of photojournalism and um, what we did is we it was during the war. The so-called war on terror right? You know that period of time.

55:43.56
alexei sayle
The.

55:54.71
mother courage
Um, and we took you know? Ah yeah, but so we superimposed images of those over here as we actually like we got the last hundred copies of his of the english publication of Chris Feeble and made these books I'll get 1 sent to.

55:55.89
alexei sayle
Those crazy days.

56:10.20
talalaban
Which translates to what's the transit it war um war primer. That's it yes, so yours was called the war primer 2

56:17.26
mother courage
Ah, war primer war primer as in like a textbook. Yeah, and um, so it's like teach that's it yeah and and then one more be 1 more story wait which um is that um.

56:26.32
talalaban
Yeah.

56:34.88
mother courage
The the last 3 pictures certainly of Walter Benjamin because during the war Brecht was offered like a cottage somewhere in Scandinavia in exile and there are these 3 pictures of him and Walter Benjamin under a fig tree playing chess and.

56:49.91
alexei sayle
Right.

56:52.92
mother courage
You see the chessboard and you see the as it progresses but nobody knows the outcome of that game. So um, hosain to tala that the the Chinese invented this kind of um chess board that. Ah, you can Play. It's a computer so you can play against it but it physically moves the pieces with like magnets underneath. But what we did is we encoded it with with an algorithm that one we it always started with the same setup of the last picture.

57:11.56
alexei sayle
What.

57:22.83
mother courage
And played at infiniteum every possible incarnation of that game because nobody knows who would have won it. But um, but I do have some bad news for you which is underneath breaths.

57:22.94
alexei sayle
Right. Right.

57:28.34
talalaban
He.

57:38.74
mother courage
Ah, leather jacket was he always wore a silk shirt and and you know yeah you had a credit card to his Swiss Bank account I'm not sure if you're aware of that. Totally.

57:45.79
alexei sayle
Yeah, no I I I think he was a rogue I mean he was not. You know he's not admirable in many many ways I think really? but but that's one of the things that's attractive about him I think is is very is yeah yeah.

57:59.15
mother courage
Ah, meet with me too now and and a bully where like when you compare him to Walter. But but mean Benjamin he he he he he bullied him. But um.

58:02.93
alexei sayle
Is is not not a noble character at all I Think. E.

58:15.13
alexei sayle
Yes.

58:16.83
mother courage
I also ah um, I'm a bit more of a brick than ah Jesus listen to I sound like a pretentious fucking cut that out where you fuck me.

58:24.41
talalaban
No, no finish it. You're a bit more of a break to then a what then a who then a Woody Ellen then a.

58:24.91
alexei sayle
The first.

58:30.30
mother courage
Ah, fuck that I mean I'm actually I actually comparing myself like of dare to say something like yeah Jesus Christ

58:38.80
talalaban
Ah, yeah I thought he I thought you would enjoy that surprise brecked connection. Alexi.

58:38.44
alexei sayle
Um, ah.

58:45.47
mother courage
Um, yeah.

58:47.93
alexei sayle
Yes, well I noticed your ah your your handle or whatever is mother courage. That's your ah right? I think you.

58:53.79
mother courage
I Did that on purpose for you I was clear. But um I Also there these books available but you must you do when you I don't know if you ever come here about.

59:04.64
alexei sayle
I've only been once actually I really you're making me the only other person I know in I haven't seen him for years in in belin this double Oscar winner Christ volts of course with.

59:14.18
mother courage
Well um, if you do come I will because I know the curator of this of of of this base. Well and I think you'd love it.

59:16.50
talalaban
Um, that is full title.

59:17.36
alexei sayle
Just flip it.

59:24.57
alexei sayle
Yeah now I would love to come out. Ah yeah now I think we'll we'll Um, yeah now. Well I'd like to know? Yeah, yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, but I don't know I like knowing people in other cities and I know very few people in bay.

59:28.70
talalaban
We could do a triplexi we could do a video log.

59:41.47
alexei sayle
Very few other cities Really so now I'd love to come there.

59:44.94
mother courage
I was um I was fucking terrified to meet you now because you know I I didn't grow up in England and you and like I was I told a couple of people I told the mother of my kids you know I was doing this thing and you know she grew up there. She was like.

59:54.10
talalaban
This is funny.

01:00:01.37
mother courage
Jesus fuck like Alexis like ah and then I like looked up this Youtube and it was like um oh well. Yeah I'm fucking forward from Liverpool of fucking. Yeah I'll grew up in a court just thing you know we lived off the proceeds of of selling my fucking forkin and the fuck are you.

01:00:10.43
alexei sayle
Fifth.

01:00:11.60
talalaban
I mean.

01:00:19.14
talalaban
But.

01:00:20.86
mother courage
And that's what I was like expecting this I said to taleal can can you put it like a one of those date rape things in his coffee because I'm very relieved that you.

01:00:21.23
alexei sayle
Um, there.

01:00:29.22
talalaban
He felt you.

01:00:31.81
alexei sayle
Now I'm not that guy I never was ready that that was always a what was always a complication really in my I wasn't I'm not my persona really.

01:00:38.47
mother courage
Wow you know I I I did this post last night on Lenny Bruce ah there's this um, did you ever see that photograph of Lenny Bruce holding up the newspaper and it says.

01:00:43.33
talalaban
Caricature.

01:00:47.62
alexei sayle
E.

01:00:56.24
mother courage
6000000 jews found alive in Argentina right? and and and and underneath this post I wrote signing and I really meant this I said you know what's happening with this with this with with with with um.

01:01:00.76
alexei sayle
Um, now others.

01:01:01.26
talalaban
Exactly that is.

01:01:14.51
mother courage
Weaponizing the term Anti-semitism is what it's flattening out what it means to be Jewish right? because I said I my ah I'm a proud Jew if I if I had to identify as anything. It would be Jewish right? But I have that is.

01:01:17.15
alexei sayle
Um, yes, yes.

01:01:29.34
alexei sayle
Yes.

01:01:33.65
mother courage
Have minimal relationship with the states of Israel I have no relationship with the hebrew language I have no relationship with the orthodox ah religious practices. But but Jesus do I have a jewish identity and that humor.

01:01:34.92
alexei sayle
Um, this yeah.

01:01:43.41
alexei sayle
No.

01:01:49.84
alexei sayle
Death.

01:01:51.44
mother courage
I started speaking about the the kind of yiddish kite which is like jewishness. Yeah, which which and that that that led that Larry David humor where that did you ever see the one where he goes to the palestinian chicken place and and like you know she's like.

01:01:55.81
alexei sayle
Um, yeah.

01:02:05.58
alexei sayle
Yes, indeed yes is gro. But yeah, and.

01:02:07.34
talalaban
Um, yeah.

01:02:11.24
mother courage
Waitress is like fuck me like your people fuck my country and um, but that's Jewish identity and you and you're still and you're stealing it from me you flat bastards.

01:02:17.54
talalaban
Um.

01:02:24.00
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah, you're just a just 1 kind of saintly peace loading. Yeah yeah, thank you I think.

01:02:32.00
mother courage
Well luck the but the monolith of the victim you know? So ah.

01:02:41.80
alexei sayle
Adam that was I think that's um um yeah you know, amazing story. Really, we don't think we've covered half of it. But ah, you know? Yeah, thank you very.

01:02:48.68
talalaban
Indeed and listeners. Please if you want to see any of the videos that Adam's been talking about and you've not already followed him. He's on I think your most prolific output is on Instagram ah, ah in terms of social media anyway is just app.

01:03:03.49
mother courage
A.

01:03:05.80
talalaban
Adam Brewberg isn't it Adam Bruberg with an e in the berg part of bruberg. Um, yeah, go follow him, check out some of these videos that he mentioned I think yeah that video of those kids attacking you is on there. Um, right I saw that didn't i.

01:03:20.55
mother courage
Well I don't go back there to retraumatize myself but I'm sure. Yeah.

01:03:26.21
talalaban
Oh I'm sorry um, but um and when this recording is done Adam please don't close the website straight away because it needs to upload your audio. But ah I had to interject with that as well. Don't close the website and.

01:03:28.48
alexei sayle
Yeah, but ah, dark Yeah I thought.

01:03:37.55
mother courage
Okay, no worries, no worries. Um, thank you Really both your time I'm I'm very um, honestly at a time at a time like this to be given a chance to to tell my story is is is really that I really.

01:03:40.50
alexei sayle
Yeah, no I mean.

01:03:52.80
mother courage
Um, very grateful honestly.

01:03:54.67
talalaban
Keep us posted with how it works out man and we we.

01:03:54.77
alexei sayle
It's nothing at home. It's really you know what fuck you? what a fucking fuck you know a fucking a miserable fucking shit back in at the house fucking.

01:04:03.12
mother courage
Yeah, well I will well. Ah, um, ah might I might have to move close to you. It's closer to you than you think.

01:04:12.52
alexei sayle
Yeah, well Comelin Yeah, but yeah I'd love to come to spell and we should do it. We're going We we've not been anywhere. We're not been hardly anywhere since sort of lockdown. Really we've lost the habit of traveling. So let's you go.

01:04:16.20
mother courage
Yeah, do it really do.

01:04:24.31
talalaban
In.

01:04:25.87
mother courage
But this is like um Berlin is like I'll come especially with your like marxist like oh you you this place is will fascinate you like crazy.

01:04:28.30
alexei sayle
I love that and we've been to Belin once and I'd love the other was amazing. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we didn't we just came for a few days and yeah.

01:04:41.71
talalaban
It'd be great.

01:04:42.85
mother courage
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll arrange in a whole itinerary and then and then we can go to Hebron as well after another time.

01:04:45.45
talalaban
It would be great to get the broomberg tour of Berlin.

01:04:45.91
alexei sayle
Really and he scratched the surface of I'd love to get? Yeah yeah.

01:04:54.78
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah, well, it's yes, that's a home was a thing. Thank you very much and yeah I know go about? Yeah yeah, yeah.

01:05:00.27
mother courage
Oh.

01:05:00.84
talalaban
You actually you spoke Alexi last time. Okay, yeah, thank you Adam thank you man oh you spoke last time about your worries about going to visiting Palestine. You had a 3 reasons. Um 1

01:05:12.11
mother courage
What with him.

01:05:14.14
alexei sayle
1 was I well one was I thought that I might you know because elderly jews that they can suddenly flip and go all kind of zionistical. Really you know as you approaching as you approaching the kind of prospect of your own mortality suddenly somebody who's all like Bds and hip and like.

01:05:29.20
mother courage
Um I think.

01:05:33.76
alexei sayle
Pro-palestinian you go and see him again a week later and they've gone all kind of rabbinical on you. So I'm bit worried about that I'm also as a fan of weaponry and also the thought of young women with m four carbines that I might go all kind of.

01:05:49.14
talalaban
Mutt.

01:05:50.41
mother courage
Um, ah.

01:05:52.16
alexei sayle
A very complex reaction of like you know, like to put the combination of a beautiful young woman and an assault rifle. Ah, it might be too much for me, you know just I go I don't know Howard.

01:06:00.38
talalaban
Ah.

01:06:03.19
mother courage
I get it I totally get it. But yeah, yeah.

01:06:08.43
alexei sayle
I just go like yeah I don't know how I was something very unpleasant would happen there something really something tremendously. Repellent would happen I Kindt remember what the sad one was oh they wouldn't let me in they really.

01:06:17.60
mother courage
Oh they will. They'll let you indoor. Oh yeah, and and but tell um I'm going to send you a couple of links in terms of that that that machine gun and and and and and beautifully done.

01:06:17.87
talalaban
Um, they won't let you in cause you is a person of note.

01:06:35.45
mother courage
Ah, man, many pettiess and m sixteen s that you got to send on to Alexa. Yeah.

01:06:39.88
talalaban
Um, whoa I sure I'll make ah I'll I'll connect all 3 of us on an email together as ah so that you can.

01:06:41.39
alexei sayle
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, so well good look at them I hope it you know oh shit gets better and you know thank you very much for doing this and I think we'll get a fantastic response I hope this will be 1 of our most important videos ever. All right? Are we.

01:06:47.62
mother courage
Um, okay, very thank you, Thank you so much.

01:06:56.63
mother courage
Um, yeah, great. Thank you both her all right I want want buy lexii.

01:07:01.25
talalaban
All right bye bye wait don't go anywhere Adam won't go anywhere. Yeah by bye.

01:07:04.59
alexei sayle
Ah, by Bye Nine Bye Bye Bye bye.