1 00:00:02,940 --> 00:00:05,820 Narrator: You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a 2 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:09,450 podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,800 knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework. 4 00:00:17,220 --> 00:00:20,700 Marco Gianotten: So, it's like yin and yang. But there's Yang, 5 00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:23,670 but there was no yet so excellent is the Yang into this 6 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:27,000 funny, crazy world. Perfect example, if you have a first 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,350 full resolution, you also need a first class experience. 8 00:00:33,130 --> 00:00:36,490 Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to Humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm 9 00:00:36,490 --> 00:00:39,820 Eveline Oehrlich, Chief Research Officer at the DevOps Institute. 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,460 Our title for the podcast today is "How to Master the Art of a 11 00:00:45,460 --> 00:00:49,360 Perfect Experience". I'm hoping that this title is making you 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,320 curious. Well, I'm curious I'm very curious for the upcoming 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:58,090 conversation and I'm excited to have a fantastic guests today. 14 00:00:58,570 --> 00:01:03,010 Today, we have with us Marco Gianotten . He is the founder 15 00:01:03,010 --> 00:01:06,040 and CEO of Giarte. Hello, Marco, 16 00:01:06,430 --> 00:01:09,220 Marco Gianotten: Yes, well, thanks for having me. I'm really 17 00:01:09,220 --> 00:01:10,660 looking forward to this podcast. 18 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,990 Eveline Oehrlich: Again, I am excited to speak to you today. 19 00:01:14,770 --> 00:01:17,170 Let me give our listeners a little bit of a background on 20 00:01:17,170 --> 00:01:20,770 you. So I'll talk to you about you in third person. I hope 21 00:01:20,770 --> 00:01:25,630 that's okay. So Marco's badge of honor in the C suite is the 22 00:01:25,630 --> 00:01:30,370 friendly insult and I love that Marco is well known for outside 23 00:01:30,370 --> 00:01:34,240 in market views and creative problem solving. He's also seen 24 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,240 as a thought leader in experience management and 25 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,260 axillae. We'll get to that in a little bit later. His favorite 26 00:01:41,260 --> 00:01:46,870 saying Do or do not. There is no try. He's very sharp, 27 00:01:47,230 --> 00:01:51,520 disruptive, a pioneer of the experience revolution likes to 28 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,810 speak at home and abroad and pushes change into overdrive 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,610 with compelling arguments to act. I love this description. I 30 00:02:00,610 --> 00:02:04,630 hope Marco This is a compliment, of course to you. Is there 31 00:02:04,630 --> 00:02:06,040 anything I have missed? 32 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,300 Marco Gianotten: No know, well, that I want to be a chef. But 33 00:02:10,330 --> 00:02:14,020 I'm a failed chef. But that's for the aftermath of this 34 00:02:14,890 --> 00:02:18,100 podcast. No, it makes me very humble, and also very proud. So 35 00:02:18,100 --> 00:02:21,160 thank you for being on this podcast. 36 00:02:21,460 --> 00:02:23,620 Eveline Oehrlich: Well, thank you again, welcome again. And 37 00:02:23,620 --> 00:02:29,260 how I found your micro was I did of course research in and who I 38 00:02:29,260 --> 00:02:33,100 would want to bring in to talk about service level agreements 39 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:36,820 and all of those wonderful topics. And I found a I think it 40 00:02:36,820 --> 00:02:40,960 was on LinkedIn where you said that SLA stands for secret lies 41 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,760 and assumptions, which really caught my attention. As we are 42 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:50,200 in the month of February during a lot of conversations and focus 43 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:55,180 on the topic of Site Reliability Engineering, we, of course, are 44 00:02:55,180 --> 00:03:00,190 very interested in the topics of SLA s KPIs and OKRs. And that is 45 00:03:00,190 --> 00:03:06,970 really, why I thought I have to talk to you. So tell me about 46 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,900 the statement secret lies and assumptions. What made you say 47 00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:11,350 that? 48 00:03:12,430 --> 00:03:15,910 Marco Gianotten: Well, I love it. I love DevOps in ITIL. They 49 00:03:15,910 --> 00:03:19,150 have many descriptions, starting with the word service, like a 50 00:03:19,150 --> 00:03:23,260 service level report, or have a service level objective, or a 51 00:03:23,260 --> 00:03:26,860 service level agreement or service manager or service 52 00:03:26,860 --> 00:03:29,740 designed but actually, it's not about service. It's about 53 00:03:29,740 --> 00:03:34,390 process. So to Beatty, business managers an SLA stands for 54 00:03:34,390 --> 00:03:38,950 secret license assumptions. For example, at a large retailer, 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,150 all the it suppliers all the outsourcing the whole landscape, 56 00:03:43,180 --> 00:03:47,920 everybody was protecting the SLA but the shelves were empty. So 57 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,520 system availability was their truth but shelf availability was 58 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,520 the truth of the business. So if the shelves are empty in the 59 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,240 basket size is empty and your customers are in a happy I don't 60 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,800 give a crap about an SLA. You don't do a good job. So this is 61 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,000 I wanted to reinvent the word SLA it's still a service level 62 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,670 agreement with for to the business when it doesn't work 63 00:04:10,060 --> 00:04:13,870 when it's a watermelon so it's green inside all the metrics are 64 00:04:13,870 --> 00:04:17,440 green in the service level report. But actually the 65 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,640 atmosphere the surrounding the emotions are in the red zone. 66 00:04:22,060 --> 00:04:25,150 You have a watermelon and then when I came over and did 67 00:04:25,150 --> 00:04:27,610 something else so it was secret life and assumption and and 68 00:04:27,610 --> 00:04:32,080 outsourcing I call it sore loser agreement to catch my drift it's 69 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,380 it's something okay, what's the truth? What's reality and you 70 00:04:35,380 --> 00:04:38,710 can you don't hide behind your own reality and claim I do a 71 00:04:38,710 --> 00:04:42,760 great job as it you don't do a great job. But it is so 72 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,580 important to the business that we're not able to talk mumbo 73 00:04:45,580 --> 00:04:48,670 jumbo Tech, we have to talk the language of the business. 74 00:04:50,460 --> 00:04:53,610 Eveline Oehrlich: Beautiful. Let's explore a little bit about 75 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,630 Giarte. You're the founder of Giarte. I'd Love for you to 76 00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:00,840 share with our listeners a little bit about what what you 77 00:05:00,900 --> 00:05:02,610 all do at Giarte. 78 00:05:03,550 --> 00:05:06,400 Marco Gianotten: So we're, we're focused on bringing touch into 79 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:13,480 tech. So, for true nerds were like, We're called the cities of 80 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,650 it. And we're proud of that we bring into touch normally, when 81 00:05:17,650 --> 00:05:20,980 you say the word empathy in a software company, you get fired. 82 00:05:21,490 --> 00:05:25,060 We bring empathy, we bring experience to the world of tech. 83 00:05:25,660 --> 00:05:28,810 So you have the general trend of experience management, that's, 84 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:33,070 that's real big that we bring experience management into the 85 00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:37,150 world of tech, and technology and outsourcing an ecosystem. So 86 00:05:37,390 --> 00:05:41,380 we focus on the X. And that's about three things that's about 87 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,830 customer experience, or employee experience, or developer 88 00:05:44,830 --> 00:05:48,940 happiness. So the human, it's about business impact. And the 89 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:52,390 funny thing is, if systems go down, the word outreach and 90 00:05:52,390 --> 00:05:56,440 outreach, outreach, different one letter. So that's the 91 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,500 business impact. And the third one is about collaboration, 92 00:05:59,770 --> 00:06:03,010 about Win Win by design. So these are the three value 93 00:06:03,010 --> 00:06:07,720 drivers. And we put it into a concept and that concept evolved 94 00:06:07,750 --> 00:06:11,230 into a framework. And we call that now XLH, the experience 95 00:06:11,230 --> 00:06:16,390 level agreement. Very good help large, we sell we help large 96 00:06:16,390 --> 00:06:20,380 companies with Well, let's say Steve thinks it's a mindset. So 97 00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:25,510 flip thinking, great example is there was a famous German, or 98 00:06:25,510 --> 00:06:30,700 there still is famous German carmaker in Bavarian, and they 99 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:36,610 claim for damn file on there, enjoy driving, but they use 853 100 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,470 KPIs just for workplace management. So there was no 101 00:06:41,470 --> 00:06:46,180 emotional or experience metric included. So that was a typical 102 00:06:46,990 --> 00:06:49,360 Secrets, Lies and assumption that was not actually the 103 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,820 reality. So helping those companies to get into the 104 00:06:51,820 --> 00:06:56,290 mindset. And having the skills like for example, Experience 105 00:06:56,290 --> 00:06:59,770 Management, what kind of capability is that? And also, 106 00:07:00,010 --> 00:07:03,730 what kind of tools do you use, to measure to monitor to 107 00:07:03,730 --> 00:07:07,090 optimize and use experience because from experience 108 00:07:07,090 --> 00:07:08,800 everything that's digitally related. 109 00:07:10,390 --> 00:07:12,310 Eveline Oehrlich: So something caught my attention on your 110 00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:16,630 website. And again, this is related to our months of Site 111 00:07:16,630 --> 00:07:19,510 Reliability Engineering, and I'm going to quote from your 112 00:07:19,510 --> 00:07:24,070 website, it says, excellent is a powerful new addition to the 113 00:07:24,070 --> 00:07:28,630 traditional IT service level agreements, or SLA is one that 114 00:07:28,630 --> 00:07:32,830 builds on the SLA concept by measuring human sentiment and 115 00:07:32,830 --> 00:07:37,570 using this to break down silos, and think and act from the 116 00:07:37,570 --> 00:07:43,480 perspective of a user. So I have a three prong question. First, 117 00:07:44,020 --> 00:07:49,330 explain to us what are x delays? Second, how different are they 118 00:07:49,330 --> 00:07:55,810 from service level agreements? And can I if I am in that, for 119 00:07:55,810 --> 00:07:58,810 example, company you were talking about or any others if 120 00:07:58,810 --> 00:08:03,910 I'm managing SLAs? Can I move from SLA s to xls? And how would 121 00:08:03,910 --> 00:08:04,480 that look? 122 00:08:05,470 --> 00:08:07,750 Marco Gianotten: Oh, great questions. Okay, the first one, 123 00:08:07,780 --> 00:08:11,410 okay, what's an excellent, it stands for experience level 124 00:08:11,410 --> 00:08:15,640 agreement. Actually, it's a framework, but also a commitment 125 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:20,260 to apply Experience Management in organizations and ecosystems, 126 00:08:20,290 --> 00:08:23,350 for example, outsourcing relationships. So it's a 127 00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:29,530 framework and a commitment. The second question is, okay, you 128 00:08:29,530 --> 00:08:35,080 have the world of azules and ITIL. And we're, we're agnostic. 129 00:08:35,560 --> 00:08:41,680 So you have to rethink about it. And it is left brain oriented. 130 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:47,260 So it's about the details. And if we look to SLA, it's about 131 00:08:47,260 --> 00:08:51,820 the important details. It's about process. First, it's about 132 00:08:52,270 --> 00:08:56,140 tangible outputs, like the efficiency of freight or of 133 00:08:56,170 --> 00:08:59,950 surfer so uptime, or availability. So it's technology 134 00:08:59,950 --> 00:09:02,380 centric. So actually, it's about the bigger picture. It's about 135 00:09:02,380 --> 00:09:05,230 the impact you have on the business and especially human 136 00:09:05,230 --> 00:09:10,480 beings. So it's like yin and yang. But there's Yang, but 137 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,380 there was no Yang. So excellent is the Yang into this funny, 138 00:09:14,380 --> 00:09:17,980 crazy world of tech. For example, if you have a first 139 00:09:17,980 --> 00:09:22,480 call resolution measurement, well, you also need a first 140 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,830 class experience. So you can look at incident management, but 141 00:09:26,830 --> 00:09:30,610 also okay, what was the impact on lost productivity? You can 142 00:09:30,610 --> 00:09:33,910 focus on problems but also prevent them because you're 143 00:09:33,910 --> 00:09:38,500 repeat. It's the same difference between if a product is not 144 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:41,920 available on the shelf because of an IT problem. That's 145 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:47,680 reality. And if you claim that the system is still up, that's 146 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:50,950 not reality, because the business is hurt, and people are 147 00:09:50,950 --> 00:09:55,360 not happy. So at klm they started rethinking about their 148 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,370 metrics. And eventually they are in business so flying planes Got 149 00:10:00,370 --> 00:10:04,360 it, but they need it to support their main business. So if you 150 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,840 have a flight delayed due to it, because above and below the wing 151 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:13,150 IT systems fill, then you have flight delay due to it. And our 152 00:10:13,150 --> 00:10:17,860 goal as it is to have no flight delays due to it. Because if I 153 00:10:17,860 --> 00:10:20,770 have a flight delay, that's costing you money, you have to 154 00:10:20,770 --> 00:10:24,790 pay a penalty, your net promoter score will go down. Because if 155 00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:27,760 I'm there, you know, I'm not able to fly as a customer, I'm 156 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,250 not happy, I wouldn't recommend you and you have to change the 157 00:10:30,250 --> 00:10:35,050 crew. So finding out where we go, key provenance indicators, 158 00:10:35,050 --> 00:10:39,430 what actually makes the business or the customer or the ecosystem 159 00:10:39,430 --> 00:10:43,570 tick and focus, and focused on the things that really matter. 160 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,840 So that's why we introduced key proud indicators, because they 161 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,450 motivate you to do the right thing and you know, you do the 162 00:10:49,450 --> 00:10:49,930 right thing. 163 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,090 Ad: Are you looking to get DevOps certified? Demonstrate 164 00:10:55,090 --> 00:10:57,100 your DevOps knowledge and advance your career with a 165 00:10:57,100 --> 00:11:00,100 certification from DevOps Institute, get certified in 166 00:11:00,100 --> 00:11:03,880 DevOps Leader, SRE or DevSecOps, just to name a few. Learn 167 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,630 anywhere, anytime. The choice is yours. Choose to get certified 168 00:11:07,630 --> 00:11:11,080 through our vast partner network self study programs, or our new 169 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,050 skillup elearning videos. The exams are developed in 170 00:11:14,050 --> 00:11:16,600 collaboration with industry thought leaders, and subject 171 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,630 matter experts in the DevOps space, Learn more at DevOps 172 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,550 Institute.com/certifications. 173 00:11:24,750 --> 00:11:29,760 Eveline Oehrlich: I was just traveling across to the US at 174 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,000 Christmas time, and of course, there was a huge challenge from 175 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:41,010 one particular flight provider travel company, who, yeah, we 176 00:11:41,010 --> 00:11:44,730 did not, we were not delighted. And what really made me a little 177 00:11:44,730 --> 00:11:49,680 bit upset was when I was sitting at the airport. The news hit 178 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:54,450 that it was infrastructure, and it who was responsible for the 179 00:11:54,450 --> 00:11:58,350 outage because they had aging systems. Of course, I wasn't an 180 00:11:58,350 --> 00:12:01,650 I am not part of that company. But I felt a little bit offended 181 00:12:01,650 --> 00:12:06,780 that their IT department is blamed for this situation, and 182 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:10,470 they make it very public. So an excellent example. And I am a 183 00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:14,040 KLM flier, lucky me that you guys have worked with them. But 184 00:12:14,220 --> 00:12:19,140 I felt really, really sad for this IT organization who gets to 185 00:12:19,470 --> 00:12:22,890 who is blamed for all this mess happening over Christmas in the 186 00:12:22,890 --> 00:12:24,660 US, anyway, sorry. 187 00:12:25,090 --> 00:12:28,420 Marco Gianotten: And that's also what happens to it. People don't 188 00:12:28,420 --> 00:12:31,450 celebrate success or no product, because they're always on the 189 00:12:31,810 --> 00:12:35,140 wrong end. You know, they always get the blame, and they accept 190 00:12:35,140 --> 00:12:38,710 the blame. It's the same as it starts reporting, oh, my 191 00:12:38,890 --> 00:12:42,550 metrics. I don't celebrate success. You know, I know. I 192 00:12:42,550 --> 00:12:46,420 don't know if I report metrics. And I think could do a good job. 193 00:12:46,420 --> 00:12:49,060 But actually the business is going down, for example, these 194 00:12:49,060 --> 00:12:51,940 IT guys working very hard. But actually, there's inter 195 00:12:51,940 --> 00:12:55,510 investment, or they don't have the wrong metrics. So they, for 196 00:12:55,510 --> 00:13:01,150 example, they don't have the backup procedures, because well, 197 00:13:01,150 --> 00:13:03,430 they didn't have enough money. But if you don't have the backup 198 00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:07,450 procedures, and you have an outage, your recovery time goes 199 00:13:07,450 --> 00:13:12,910 up. So your recovery time objective, you know, that's 200 00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:16,540 really key. So, if we're down for 10 minutes, that's okay. If 201 00:13:16,540 --> 00:13:19,720 we're down for three hours, okay, that's totally wrong, 202 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,020 because then the system will collapse and we have to replan 203 00:13:23,020 --> 00:13:27,310 everything but those kinds of discussions are not business it 204 00:13:27,310 --> 00:13:29,920 alignments of I don't know what they're talking about, because 205 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,070 we invested a lot of money in business it alignment and I 206 00:13:33,070 --> 00:13:36,130 don't know what they're doing. There's only one language in 207 00:13:36,130 --> 00:13:39,580 this the language of the business and the customer do if 208 00:13:39,610 --> 00:13:43,120 it starts talking about business. For example, I also 209 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,990 make a joke that's EBIT earnings before interest in tax so most 210 00:13:46,990 --> 00:13:52,510 IT guys it just means earnings before it. talk the language of 211 00:13:52,510 --> 00:13:56,080 the business and I really help those people but even at klm 212 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:01,000 people within it, they weren't very happy, you know, and they 213 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,150 started outsourcing and instead of helping the service providers 214 00:14:04,180 --> 00:14:06,940 there were blaming them because they were bullying them because 215 00:14:06,940 --> 00:14:10,240 they were bullied by the business. That was so so about 216 00:14:12,370 --> 00:14:14,890 you know, when you're doing a great job, I don't have to be 217 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,030 managed by someone if I have no flight delay due to it. I know I 218 00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:22,270 did a great job when the answer is zero when the Friday because 219 00:14:22,270 --> 00:14:25,870 then we have celebrate and we have drinks because I know I did 220 00:14:25,870 --> 00:14:29,380 a great job because it's my impact on the business. So 221 00:14:29,380 --> 00:14:34,750 Heineken invented the beer KPI on the impact of SAP hosting on 222 00:14:34,810 --> 00:14:37,660 on the on the production and especially the selling of beer 223 00:14:37,660 --> 00:14:40,450 in Asia and Africa. Because you don't want to do with change 224 00:14:40,450 --> 00:14:43,510 just prior to the end of the rainy season Africa because then 225 00:14:43,510 --> 00:14:49,330 they celebrate and appear. Yep. So being in the mind and being 226 00:14:49,330 --> 00:14:53,320 thoughtful and understanding the business because the business is 227 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,990 very tricky because they have the money so the relationship 228 00:14:55,990 --> 00:15:01,570 would do between IT and business or the doesn't work. If they 229 00:15:01,570 --> 00:15:05,110 speak different languages and having a service level 230 00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:07,660 agreement, it actually is a watermelon. So it's called 231 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:10,960 secret lies and assumptions to the business. That's, that's not 232 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,750 good for it. Because it's, it makes you depressed even. Yep. 233 00:15:17,830 --> 00:15:21,100 Eveline Oehrlich: As an IT person I am. This is music to my 234 00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:25,060 ears because I would love to have a proudness indicator, 235 00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:29,920 which helps me to share and celebrate what I've done. But 236 00:15:29,950 --> 00:15:32,950 here's another question. You guys talked a lot about the 237 00:15:32,950 --> 00:15:36,940 human experience and tech. And I think you talked about left 238 00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:41,230 brain, right brain. Many of our listeners are developers site 239 00:15:41,230 --> 00:15:44,950 reliability engineers, DevOps and team members. If it did, 240 00:15:44,980 --> 00:15:48,880 they don't really do a lot of you know, thinking in terms of 241 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,650 human experience and technology, maybe it's user experience. But 242 00:15:53,950 --> 00:15:57,580 again, if you're an operations or in DevOps, not too much 243 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,870 concerns about that. Give us a little bit more insight on your 244 00:16:01,870 --> 00:16:05,320 guys's thinking in terms of human experience and technology. 245 00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:09,700 How can our listeners start such new thinking? 246 00:16:10,750 --> 00:16:13,810 Marco Gianotten: Yes. Okay. For first, for example, like user 247 00:16:13,810 --> 00:16:17,440 interaction or user design, that's the settle. Excellent is 248 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:24,280 the horse. So holistically, it's bigger. And most people the most 249 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,150 important word in DevOps, or in Agile, the Agile Manifesto is 250 00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:32,920 the word valuable. They made money mistake. They named it 251 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,090 valuable software, but it has to be value, anything you do. Value 252 00:16:37,090 --> 00:16:40,930 is very abstract to understand as a human being, it has to be 253 00:16:40,930 --> 00:16:44,230 valuable for me, like an end user or a business, but it has 254 00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:49,060 to be valuable, or has to be valued as a developer. So if I'm 255 00:16:49,060 --> 00:16:53,260 a developer, and I make coat not only makes that makes the 256 00:16:53,260 --> 00:16:55,960 product owner happy, but the customer happy, because it's 257 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,230 easy for them to adopt, they love the software, they love the 258 00:16:59,230 --> 00:17:04,510 feature, the usability goes up and user adoption goes up that 259 00:17:04,510 --> 00:17:11,500 makes me proud to and especially in in the DevOps way of working 260 00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:16,090 in releasing software, it's very important to understand what the 261 00:17:16,090 --> 00:17:19,120 end user what the customer, what the employee is actually doing 262 00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:23,860 with that software. And we have product owners that decide on on 263 00:17:23,860 --> 00:17:28,480 the priorities. They have their own KPIs key value indicators, 264 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,410 and that's the first thing that goes wrong, that KPI is focused 265 00:17:32,410 --> 00:17:36,460 on the customer. It's focused on the value is not a traditional 266 00:17:36,460 --> 00:17:41,650 KPI like uptime, or availability or whatever. So if you start 267 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,370 changing from a KPI to a KPI in DevOps, that's a good thing. But 268 00:17:45,370 --> 00:17:47,560 actually, you need something overarching, because you have 269 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,260 multiple teams and they don't really work together and the end 270 00:17:50,260 --> 00:17:54,760 up, it's a bad customer experience. So a key proudness 271 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,570 indicator works very well as the mother of all key value 272 00:17:58,570 --> 00:18:02,110 indicators. So I think in the DevOps community, in the 273 00:18:02,110 --> 00:18:07,060 software engineering community, that they will adopt, excellent 274 00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:10,840 thinking to, for example, they start thinking about experience 275 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,620 engineering, like they do in Product Engineering. If you go 276 00:18:14,620 --> 00:18:19,300 to a carmaker, if you go to Boeing, if you go to any company 277 00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:23,380 that makes great products. In product design, you also think 278 00:18:23,380 --> 00:18:26,680 about experience, the famous book, emotional design by Don 279 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:33,160 Norman. That's a classic book. And it's well known in product 280 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,240 management and product design and designers. But actually, no 281 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,560 one almost no one in IT. And especially DevOps knows that 282 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:47,740 book. This guy, both two great books about the about design. 283 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:54,010 And I love the book, emotional design, because that's part of 284 00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:56,890 the nature that's part when Boeing developed the Dreamliner 285 00:18:56,890 --> 00:18:59,860 it was about emotion because this was the first airplane they 286 00:18:59,890 --> 00:19:03,550 ever designed with a human being in mind. The previous edition 287 00:19:03,550 --> 00:19:06,520 when there was designing a plane was about safeness. And then 288 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,550 they came up with a jumbo jet, it has to be cheap. And the 289 00:19:09,550 --> 00:19:13,810 third real third generation in designing an airplane was about 290 00:19:13,810 --> 00:19:17,980 human experience. And then you the first problem they 291 00:19:17,980 --> 00:19:21,400 encountered at Boeing was when you start talking to people like 292 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,460 I'm in a focus group together with you, Evelyn. And you say, 293 00:19:24,490 --> 00:19:27,130 Well, what do you want this I want more legroom and engineer 294 00:19:27,130 --> 00:19:31,240 really understands that. That's a functional requirement. So I 295 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,460 say, I don't want to feel locked up. What happens with 296 00:19:33,460 --> 00:19:37,570 traditional engineer? They say, my God, he's an idiot. Well, 297 00:19:37,570 --> 00:19:40,090 should we make it into inconvertible? This sucker will 298 00:19:40,090 --> 00:19:43,930 freeze to that because 10,000 meters minus 50 Celsius degrees, 299 00:19:43,930 --> 00:19:47,470 something like that. That's not empathy. That's apathy. So they 300 00:19:47,470 --> 00:19:51,400 change the design team also with social engineers, and now they 301 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:56,110 understand so the Dreamliner and the Airbus 350 are about the 302 00:19:56,110 --> 00:19:59,740 human being and it's about humidity. It's about light. It's 303 00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:03,700 about It's about the experience and you feel more refreshed 304 00:20:04,450 --> 00:20:09,760 after a flight with a Dreamliner than a triple seven. So in car, 305 00:20:10,030 --> 00:20:15,850 a in airplay in electronics in the iPhone, what Apple that's 306 00:20:15,850 --> 00:20:19,060 all about design, emotional design, people have to love it. 307 00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:22,870 But in software, we still have to embrace that thinking. 308 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:26,980 Eveline Oehrlich: I love that. I love that Dream Lighter example, 309 00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:32,890 absolutely right on having that design for the relaxing journey 310 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,810 to your destination. Fantastic example. Just something for the 311 00:20:37,810 --> 00:20:42,370 listeners, as you mentioned that Marco Don Norman, if anybody 312 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,710 wants to do some research in that he is a very famous thought 313 00:20:47,710 --> 00:20:50,980 leader and is actually working on another book at this point of 314 00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:53,950 time, I think it's called the Digital Transformation 315 00:20:53,950 --> 00:20:58,330 experience. But I was fascinated by some of his writings and 316 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,020 actually have pre ordered his his book on this digital 317 00:21:02,020 --> 00:21:06,880 experience. So just for our listeners, again, Dream Lighter 318 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,980 is an excellent example. Now, you are releasing an excellent 319 00:21:11,980 --> 00:21:16,330 pocket book, I think, yeah, pretty soon. Yeah. Tell us Tell 320 00:21:16,330 --> 00:21:18,700 us. Tell us a little bit more about that. 321 00:21:18,790 --> 00:21:21,490 Marco Gianotten: Okay. When we started this, I was like, we 322 00:21:21,490 --> 00:21:28,090 were like a lowly nut. So there's a famous YouTube footage 323 00:21:28,090 --> 00:21:31,630 over like a video and the videos by a guy dancing on his own. And 324 00:21:31,630 --> 00:21:34,570 then people start following. So we did a lot of good practices 325 00:21:34,570 --> 00:21:38,590 already, for a lot of large companies in the US in Europe, 326 00:21:38,590 --> 00:21:41,530 even in Japan, and we were infusing our thoughts with game 327 00:21:41,530 --> 00:21:45,190 design or product design. And then you have to come up with a 328 00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:48,430 glossary. And then we said, we're going to share this with a 329 00:21:48,430 --> 00:21:51,940 lot of people we want, we want to have an academy, we want to 330 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:54,940 develop the skill sets for people. So now you have to start 331 00:21:55,750 --> 00:22:00,400 codifying your knowledge. And we started with a pocket book, it 332 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,630 will be published in three weeks from now, the US version, 333 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,220 together with fan Hara publishing, I'm really excited 334 00:22:09,220 --> 00:22:13,420 because we're now into the open. And then that will be followed 335 00:22:13,420 --> 00:22:17,110 by something more spectacular in the summer that call to ritual 336 00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:21,670 book this because the great thing about agile or especially 337 00:22:21,670 --> 00:22:25,750 DevOps is about the ceremonies, it's about the sprint planning, 338 00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:29,950 or a daily standup, or a sprint review, or sprint retrospective 339 00:22:30,460 --> 00:22:34,090 keep ceremonies are like rituals. So we developed a lot 340 00:22:34,090 --> 00:22:38,290 of rituals, like the key proud indicator, or the or the KPI, 341 00:22:38,290 --> 00:22:43,390 stress methodology, or a lot of great things that could be 342 00:22:43,390 --> 00:22:46,990 applied. And also law firms love this, to put it into the 343 00:22:46,990 --> 00:22:50,050 contract. Because the spirit of the contract is really important 344 00:22:50,050 --> 00:22:54,640 if you start collaborating. So we work to get other people, the 345 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,450 book, that book will be out there. And when this possible 346 00:22:58,450 --> 00:23:01,780 will be there, people hopefully will look at it and they can 347 00:23:01,780 --> 00:23:09,040 order it. And we have a lineup of great products, books 348 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:15,310 eLearning video content to share this. And we train people in 349 00:23:15,310 --> 00:23:20,110 Lesotho. And my team is now working in Portugal and in Spain 350 00:23:20,110 --> 00:23:24,820 and in France, and we're very proud with people start stealing 351 00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:27,430 stuff from us. And we have that makes us very proud like because 352 00:23:27,850 --> 00:23:31,450 if you're good artists copy great artists, you still go, we 353 00:23:31,450 --> 00:23:36,520 help this community and a lot of young people and old people with 354 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,490 the spirit, the people from the title community, people from the 355 00:23:39,490 --> 00:23:42,010 DevOps community, the people from any community, even with 356 00:23:42,010 --> 00:23:46,450 people with Lean. And so we had to discuss what's what is so 357 00:23:46,450 --> 00:23:50,590 great about this. And they said, well, like lean, we started all 358 00:23:50,590 --> 00:23:54,010 about Lean thinking when I was in university, but was no waste 359 00:23:54,190 --> 00:23:58,420 and lean it is there. So lean is about no waste. ITIL is about no 360 00:23:58,420 --> 00:24:02,920 chaos. Agile is about no delay. And while we needed a fourth 361 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,700 one, we call it axillae. And it will be about no frustration. 362 00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:10,000 And if we have no waste, no chaos, no delay, no frustration, 363 00:24:10,030 --> 00:24:13,480 I think we'll all be happy with the digital transformation. So 364 00:24:14,410 --> 00:24:19,330 we're on a mission, we love to share. And we love to hear and 365 00:24:19,810 --> 00:24:23,320 it's great that sometimes we people send as well we apply 366 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,640 this in a way and when the most one of the most funny things is 367 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:34,210 that at the ditch we're way they launched applications on time on 368 00:24:34,210 --> 00:24:37,990 budget like prints too. And people were actually crying 369 00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:41,620 because I'm not able to work with this release. And they say, 370 00:24:41,770 --> 00:24:46,300 well, well how can we celebrate success when the customer is not 371 00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:50,590 happy? So on time on budget was not complete. So they said it 372 00:24:50,590 --> 00:24:55,180 has to be on experience. So that's Oh x so it was on time on 373 00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:58,390 budget on experience, and now it's called auto boxing. It's a 374 00:24:58,390 --> 00:25:02,170 vert and we have to out Robots, it's in their nature in their 375 00:25:02,170 --> 00:25:06,520 DNA. So the developers and the business are extremely happy and 376 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,740 only happy when the customers happy. 377 00:25:09,220 --> 00:25:11,860 Eveline Oehrlich: Wow, fantastic. You know, after, 378 00:25:12,460 --> 00:25:17,560 let's say 40 years, and it the no frustration is very, very 379 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,580 motivational, because I have done all kinds of work design 380 00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:27,460 development, support, I carried a pager in the early stages. And 381 00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:31,660 that was the most frustrating time of my IT career. So this is 382 00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:35,350 absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much. For those who are 383 00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:39,820 listening, the XLR pocket book, I will make sure that I will 384 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,870 share with you the website, it's actually pretty easy. 385 00:25:43,930 --> 00:25:48,010 giardia.com Go look there. If you have specific questions, 386 00:25:48,010 --> 00:25:51,940 reach out to me. I know where to find Marco. Now, Michael, I have 387 00:25:51,940 --> 00:25:55,600 one more question. This has nothing to do well, slightly. It 388 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,260 has to do with experience, but not necessarily with tech. What 389 00:25:59,260 --> 00:26:00,190 do you do for fun? 390 00:26:01,180 --> 00:26:03,280 Marco Gianotten: Well, I do a lot of things for fun. I like 391 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,820 read but especially I am ambidextrous golfer, so I play 392 00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:11,500 left hand the right hand. So I'm a masochist, that plays against 393 00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:15,880 himself. So I do nine holes left hand and line holes, right 394 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,330 handed so and it's a very interesting way. It's also 395 00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:23,950 related to Chinese sword fighting. So that's a very non 396 00:26:23,950 --> 00:26:27,460 traditional way of playing golf. And a second I love cooking. I 397 00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:31,420 started cooking for toddlers cooking classes and, and read 398 00:26:31,420 --> 00:26:34,030 the thing because taste is so important for people healthy 399 00:26:34,030 --> 00:26:36,520 food. But also if you have people only or maybe with 400 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,840 dementia and you you start to taste of your youth that's 401 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,680 really important. So I wanted to be chef my life I turned out to 402 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,580 work in it. But I still I started working as a teenager in 403 00:26:48,580 --> 00:26:52,300 the kitchen. And that's still one of my biggest hobbies and 404 00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:55,600 making people happy with food is also a passion. 405 00:26:57,220 --> 00:26:59,260 Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic. We have more in common than you 406 00:26:59,260 --> 00:27:00,460 think. I also play golf but only right hand. So when you come 407 00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:08,140 down to where I live, we can go and you can teach me the other 408 00:27:08,140 --> 00:27:15,280 way. I love to cook. I always pride myself with that I'm the 409 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,060 best cook in in my family. And when I go to a restaurant, I 410 00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:21,700 always say I can cook better than I can make this better than 411 00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:26,920 these people. So I can cook for you. So come on down. Well, 412 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,580 yeah, thank you so much for this very, very enlightening 413 00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:34,450 conversation. We have been talking to Marco Gianotten and 414 00:27:34,450 --> 00:27:39,040 founder and CEO of Giarte Marco again, thank you for joining me 415 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,820 today on the Humans of DevOps Podcast. Again, for our 416 00:27:42,820 --> 00:27:45,070 listeners, if you'd like to learn more about the axillae 417 00:27:45,070 --> 00:27:49,240 pocketbook keep checking@yahoo.com And last but 418 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,500 not least humans of DevOps has is produced by the DevOps 419 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:57,550 Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia Pape, my 420 00:27:57,550 --> 00:28:01,720 good friend and Brendan Lay, my good friend as well. I'm Humans 421 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,530 of DevOps Podcast Executive Producer Eveline Oehrlich. If 422 00:28:05,530 --> 00:28:08,800 you would like to join us on a podcast in the future, please 423 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:14,620 contact us at humans of DevOps podcast at DevOps institute that 424 00:28:14,620 --> 00:28:19,660 calm Boy, that's not a good name. It's a mouthful. Thank you 425 00:28:19,660 --> 00:28:22,390 again, I'm Evelyn earlyish. Talk to you soon. 426 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,429 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Humans of 427 00:28:26,429 --> 00:28:29,999 DevOps Podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 428 00:28:29,999 --> 00:28:33,359 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 429 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,809 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 430 00:28:37,109 --> 00:28:37,859 You belong