Steve Wheen 0:06
Hey there. Welcome to the second episode of Series Three of distillery sessions. In this series, we're discussing all things web three. I'm Steve wheen founder of distillery, a content company with offices across london, Singapore and San Francisco. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Jessica Lawson on the previous episode. Next up, I'm chatting with hash packhouse, Chief Digital Officer at JSR Corporation. Hash is driven by a passion for learning and creating impactful outcomes by building and leading high performance teams and organisations. And he has taken products from invention to mass production and revenue, both as an intrapreneur and as an entrepreneur. Along the way, he has held executive leadership roles at conglomerates and at the ground floor of venture backed startups. And in various organisational functions, including r&d, product development, p&l management, a rapidly growing multi 100 million dollar product lines. And as a CEO, I thought hash would be a perfect fit for our web three series as he thrives on working outside of his comfort zone, where he's challenged to learn and adapt and grow. As this series is very much an entry point for marketeers thinking about entering the web three space, I'm going to ask hash to share some key definitions at the end of this podcast, a glossary, if you like, which I hope some of you might find helpful. Hash, welcome. Thanks so much for joining me.

Hash 1:39
Thank you, Steven. Thanks for having me.

Steve Wheen 1:41
Awesome. So you're responsible for the digitization of a major global company? How do you think wave three is going to impact a materials company like JSR?

Hash 1:52
You know, to be honest, I don't really know right now how that's going to play out. What I do know is blockchain is a very powerful technology. And, you know, as much as the internet has impacted our business, I believe blockchain will have similar if not a bigger impact on our business in the future.

Steve Wheen 2:09
So do you think then web three is really here to stay?

Hash 2:13
Absolutely. I think the fundamentals of blockchain technology and the value they bring are quite foundational, and quite important to how we do business. And so the fact is, you know, it's going to revolutionise a lot of things just like the internet did, going forward.

Steve Wheen 2:31
So for organisations and marketers looking to enter the web three space, could you go back a little bit and help us find an entry point? You know, we've talked about web three, we've talked about blockchain, for someone starting their journey, can you help them find a way in? You know,

Hash 2:49
yeah, so you know, I'll talk a little bit about, you know, what I did in terms of learning about this technology in this space, and it all started with just, you know, reading a lot, and getting online and gathering information and looking through it. The next thing is, you know, I really think it's very helpful to attend one or two, you know, popular conferences, you get to kind of immerse yourself in the community, see what the big themes are, start to get familiar with it. And you know, the next what I'm doing is really starting to connect with the community and getting deep dives into what use cases are gaining traction. And, you know, kind of see how it goes from there.

Steve Wheen 3:29
So speaking of reading, you wrote a really interesting blog post about the enormous potential of blockchain. I'll add a link in the description below to this podcast. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about your thinking, and about how web three fits into that thinking?

Hash 3:47
So, you know, I think the you know, I'll use the word blockchain more than web three. And you've, you've heard me do that already. But, you know, basically, the idea is, you know, Blockchain is about the boring stuff, you know, things that are perceived as boring standards, algorithms, automation, very much like the internet is actually. So let me take a step back. And let's look at the internet for a second and draw the parallels. You know, as information was becoming digitalized, and people were using computers to manipulate it with the introduction of scanners and, you know, computers and digital cameras. A group of people got together and did something really amazing. They started to define a set of standards and automated decentralised protocols that govern how information moved around between computers. And it didn't matter what type of information it was, right? So now, you have the capability to move digital information without human intervention between a connected network of people and computers. And the key thing is, these protocols and standards are decentralised and automated, which allowed the marginal cost distribution of information to go to zero. And we can come back to and we've all seen how that has impacted, you know, businesses globally and at what scale. The blockchain technology is very similar in the sense that really, at the core of it is a set of standards and algorithms that define and automate in a decentralised fashion and trying to minimise human intervention in the process of defining the ownership of digital assets, and how transactions between parties governed the movement of those digital assets and keeping track of those transactions. So the marginal cost of transactions involving movement of digital assets and also the immutability of the record keeping and all of that is going to go to zero, which will have dramatic impact on how we're going to do business.

Steve Wheen 5:55
You made a really interesting analogy earlier, which really framed decentralisation in a different way. For me, it sparked a really interesting discussion around the internet and decentralisation. Could you expand a little bit more about that, please? And, you know, I think you've got a really nice way of breaking down the decentralisation piece.

Hash 6:16
Yeah. So I think, you know, the way I think about it is, you know, the internet is already a decentralised platform that we're using every day for moving information around right. What got centralised is the user experience. Right? The Internet is a technology is not an application, right? users engage with an application with a use case that makes their life easier, they engage with a product, and you know, products, by their definition, are built by organisations and you know, good products use good technologies. And so using the internet, which is a decentralised technology to build a product by an organisation, which is a centralised entity that offers that product is what we see happen in our current world. That principle is no different when the technology is blockchain or internet. So, Blockchain is a decentralised technology for movement and keeping track of assets, people will build compelling applications on top of it, and offer those products to their customers. And customers will adopt them if they bring value to them. And you know, that process is done by centralised organisations that are really good at understanding what customers need making that frictionless experience happen for the customers, which drives the adoption of the product.

Steve Wheen 7:45
Are there any specific parts of businesses that you think are going to be more affected?

Hash 7:50
Yeah, so let me let me draw again, go back to the, you know, Internet, and the birth of internet. And I think the parallels are, are amazing. So when you look at a business, like publishing, newspapers, so on, right, you have analogue information. And then there's companies who offer a product, like a newspaper or a book, and they built a moat around their business. By handling the distribution, that was the power of newspapers, the ability for a competitor to enter the market was was very hard, because distribution was very expensive, right? The Internet drove the marginal cost of distributing information to zero. So all of a sudden, this big moat, competitive advantage disappeared. So these businesses were heavily impacted by this particular aspect of the internet technology. So now, fast forward to where blockchain is going, right? Blockchain is going to drive the marginal cost of moving and keeping track of digital assets to zero. So if you're in a business where you're a centralised organisation that has a big role to play in keeping track of assets, right, we have these centralised organisations that are very asset centric, DMV handles your car registration, no banks, handle your money, et cetera, et cetera. Blockchain is basically creating a platform for any digital asset, just like internet for any information, image writing, whatever. So definitely, if you're in a business that has a moat, defined by how you manage assets, you know, you're in big danger, right? Other companies will take some time, right? So it really depends on the nature of your business and how it overlaps with the capabilities of the blockchain technology in terms of how you will be affected,

Steve Wheen 9:45
right. Okay, so distillery, we're a content company. How do you think web three will affect companies like us and the services that we offer to our clients?

Hash 9:54
You know, I think for companies like this theory, this is an amazing opportunity. Um, you know, one of the most advanced areas in blockchain right now is NF T's. Let's for a moment, please forget about the crazy, you know, board apes and you know those things. Let's talk about, you know, the true fundamental value of NF T's, right? It's a non fungible token represents a digital asset. And NF T's are going to revolutionise how brands engage with their customers. And we're seeing, you know, experiments right now in that Starbucks Odyssey, Nike swoosh, some Dodwell? Some not so well. So people are doing a lot of experimentation. And they're, they're realising the power of NFT technology for how you engage with customers in a very different way. So I think for for a company, like distillery, who was in that space of, you know, engaging with customers, how do you tell stories to, you know, company stories to customers, and you have a great opportunity to create some amazing customer engagement capabilities for your customers?

Steve Wheen 11:10
So how do you think that web three is going to affect the relationship that brands have with their customers?

Hash 11:16
So I think you're you're hitting on a very important area. And the question that you're asking is exactly what every company like you should be asking themselves, is, here's the technology, here is a brand, here's the customers of that brand. And what are all the amazing things that new this new technology can offer me in engaging those customers, how to engage those customers, in a much more effective way than I used to, without this technology. So, you know, I think there's a lot of experimentation to be done. But think about, you know, the types of things that Starbucks is doing with either see where, you know, the customer is getting rewarded with NF T's and not necessarily, you know, NF T's that they can go sell for money, right, I think we have to take those types of ideas off the table. It's really how those NF T's then enable the customer to connect the digital and the physical world, I have so many FTEs, I have, you know, gained some loyalty points, I go to a physical location, and it unlocks an experience for me there. Right? So you know, can I Google customer was telling their story from Google, get some loyalty points or other things that allows them and their employees to go experience new things in the physical world unlocked by the NFT. Now, again, I don't know if this is gonna work or not. But these are the types of things that NF T's enable, and the types of experience you can unlock with this technology.

Steve Wheen 12:58
Hash, I wanted to ask you a question around content, specifically. Do you think that NF Ts, come under the bracket of content,

Hash 13:08
you know, goes back to the thing you don't want to get into? Which is what is content? Right? So I think, you know, there's a parallel here with, you know, the definitely the way people define the arrows of the web, right? Web one, the read era, you're presented information, you consume it, web to the read right era, right? Where people can share content generators now can share information with with others, right, and then web three, kind of defined as Read Write own era, right? So content has aspects of ownership. And that can be governed. Now, it was very hard to govern, you know, in the digital world, but you can govern it. It has aspects of now becoming programmable, through a link to a token that's programmable on a blockchain. And I think that programmability aspect of it, that makes it interactive in ways we have never thought of, is kind of this new capability that's going to change the way content is used.

Steve Wheen 14:17
So it's really exciting how web three is really revolutionising, you know, the value chaining in content, really taking from a one to one sort of transactional experience to something that can gain value over time. It's something that we're very much exploring at the moment.

Hash 14:35
It's not just gaining value. But now, you know, content you output today is mostly static, once it leaves, you know, the factory, right? With blockchain and NF T's that content can actually change character as it interacts with the environment according to certain rules that are in The contract that's attached to the content. So now you have dynamic content? I don't know. I mean, the possibilities are amazing, you know, I guess I'm not smart enough to know how to make money from it. But I can imagine people are gonna figure it out.

Steve Wheen 15:16
So in terms of the ownership aspect of web three, what sort of impact do you think that will have on the customer experience?

Hash 15:25
Yeah, so you know, there's a lot of things I assume brands would like to do, that they're just unable to do it today, because the technology doesn't exist. But, you know, I'm sure brands want to be able to give digital assets to their customers, in order to in different forms of reward, and so on, and so forth. And the second thing is, of course, customers have a different value on a reward that belongs to them, rather than belongs to the platform, right. So when I leave the Starbucks ecosystem, for example, you know, I will not be able to take my rewards with me. Blockchain technology manages all of that for you. So the ability to do a lot of things like giving customers things that you could not give before, you don't need an infrastructure set up to manage all of that. Blockchain technology manages all of that for you. And the customers experience is very different. Now, they kind of feel connected to this thing that's been given to them, because it's theirs, it doesn't belong to the brand anymore. And so I have a personal connection to that object or item.

Steve Wheen 16:41
So what companies are out there that are really leading the way from, from your point of view?

Hash 16:46
You know, I'll put my consumer hat on for a second, right. So as a consumer, you know, I haven't been impacted in any way, any fundamental way, by the web three so far. So I'd say that there's a lot of experimentation, but not a lot of real world adoption. You know, I would say we're in 1993. Right? Pre read web. But it's moving much faster than the evolution of internet happened. I mean, much faster. It's phenomenal, how quickly things are moving?

Steve Wheen 17:24
And who's really moving quickly in this space?

Hash 17:27
Yeah, so I think, you know, as always, you know, companies who are willing to experiment are the ones that will get there first. So people like Starbucks, and Nike who are very active experimenting, you know, McDonald's is probably going to get into it pretty soon. And so I think that's, that's the key is the companies who start to engage the technology, run proof of concepts, and are not afraid of experimenting, and keeping the blast radius, you know, limited. So if something does go wrong, you know, it's not catastrophic to the company. So I think if you can, if you are willing to do that, you know, you're gonna get there first.

Steve Wheen 18:08
So your advice to businesses who haven't started on their journey yet, is to really get out there and start iterating

Hash 18:17
with one, one, boundary condition, right? Do not abandon fundamental business 101 principles, right? You know, I've heard so many times, you know, this time is gonna be different. And you know, this, this, the quote that I love the most, and I, you know, running through my head every morning, when I get up is, everything is going to change so that everything can stay the same. So, you know, the playbook for adoption of new technology has been around for 3040 years, a lot of startups have successfully executed it, you know, things like new technology adoption lifecycle, you know, 30 years ago, written by Jeff Moore, and others, you know, don't get enamoured by, it's going to be different this time. It is do not abandon fundamental business one on one principles as you go experiment.

Steve Wheen 19:11
And then in terms of the big trends for the next 12 to 24 months. What do you think is on the horizon? What sort of opportunities do you think are going to arise?

Hash 19:21
Yes, I think you know, this experimentation with NF T's and customer engagement. I think that's really going to pick up in the next 12 to 24 months and people are going to push the boundaries are NFT technology. Again, forget about collectibles and, you know, baseball cards, I'm talking, you know, real, sophisticated programmable experiences. I think that's going to really pick up as brands start to realise the potential here. You know, the other area, you know, you don't see as you don't get impacted as a consumer is the whole blockchain infrastructure area. There is a lot happening there. I think the biggest areas In the next 12 to 24 months are what they call what we call z k proofs and z k roll ups, which will drive the cost of transactions down, bring more security to and more transaction speed to execution and also enable privacy on blockchain, which is very important to enterprise. You know, right now, a lot of public blockchains. You know, records are public. And by privacy, I don't mean a private blockchain. I just want to make sure it's clear. It's actually bringing privacy to a public blockchain. So I think the z k roll up space is going to be very foundational in impacting how blockchain infrastructure will develop. And I think the third area I hope we'll see more activity is, you know, regulation around cryptocurrencies, you know, cryptocurrency has been detrimental to the blockchain space. And until it's reined in, that negative Halo is going to continue to impact the adoption of blockchain. Awesome. So

Steve Wheen 21:06
speaking of trends, what's coming up? I know that you're planning some more blogs, what have you got in the works?

Hash 21:13
So my first post was around the boring, you know, percent perceived boring stuff about blockchain, which is the power of standards and algorithms. My next one, which I'm writing right now is around why cryptocurrencies are the Achilles heel of blockchain, and why blockchain should decouple themselves from cryptocurrencies in order to really gain in, especially in enterprise adoption? So I'll talk about that next. And then we'll see we'll go from there.

Steve Wheen 21:42
So where can people find out more? Where can they read your work? How can they connect with you?

Hash 21:49
Just follow me on LinkedIn. You know, whenever I see something interesting, that I think it's worth sharing with the community, I repost it, whenever I have an interesting idea that I think is good to share with the community, I'll post it

Steve Wheen 22:02
hash, you've got a really great ability to break down some very complex topics. Could you talk through, in your own words, some definitions for web three blockchain and NF Ts?

Hash 22:13
Sure. So yeah, I mean, it's a kind of it's a confounding space, right? People define it very differently. Now, the best definition I've seen for you know, web three is basically this evolution of web that people talk about in a web one, the consuming web information, information is out there informs a website, you go consume it, web to the sharing web, where a content generator can very easily share their content with others, and vice versa. And then web three is defined as owning web. So you have the read web, the read write web, and then the Read Write own web. Honestly, you know, I have trouble understanding how that impacts how people use web three. I'm a product person. So I focus on technology stacks instead. And that's the way I analyse problems. So in that sense, the technology that enables web three is blockchain. And so if you look at blockchain, and you think about products, then you start to think about, alright, what are the experiences that people can build on top of a technology that, you know, brings value to their customers. So I have blockchains, and then the application layer that sits on top of the blockchain. And all of that, of course, sits on top of the internet. So that's kind of the way I kind of look at it is these vertical stacks. But you know, you'll see web one, web two, web three all over the place. It's just not as illuminating for me when I think about these concepts.

Steve Wheen 23:51
Awesome. What about NF T's?

Hash 23:54
So NFT is let's talk about that in the context of blockchain, and that's kind of one of the key aspects of technology technology of blockchain, which is standards. How do you define a digital object? Well, Blockchain people have written definitions and standards around fungible assets. ERC 20 For example, The Theory of Moral and non fungible assets, which we call the NF T's, but really what they are is two different standards for two different digital assets that will behave differently in a blockchain

Steve Wheen 24:34
ecosystem. And decentralisation.

Hash 24:37
You know, that's a that's a an interesting question. So, you know, the internet is fully decentralised. In order for you to use the internet, you joined Internet, and that's an automatic thing people do every day. I have network cards in my laptop or phone, and I don't go when I go by it. I don't say oh, please make sure there's a network card in it right? It comes in standard, right? And then you join the network as soon as you turn on your computer. So it's highly decentralised. Blockchain is somewhat decentralised. And in order for you to participate in the blockchain network, you have to join the network. And that's much harder, much harder. I dare you in an hour a spin up your own Aetherium node and join Aetherium. Right. So it's very hard, technologically complex. So centralised organisations like inferior are forming that make the on ramping process much more trivial. And again, a product built on the blockchain. But you can join the network through inferior but now they're managing, you know, a whole bunch of nodes. So is that centralised? Is that bad? I mean, I don't know it works. You know, it allows people to get on the network. Will it change? Yeah, no, maybe someday every laptop will carry a special chip. That's a blockchain specific chip like a Wi Fi chip and you join the network just by turning it on. And then the degree of decentralisation is something that I'll talk about, you know, Aetherium has many, many nodes. Solano has much fewer nodes. Doesn't matter. I don't know. You know, it will depend on the application and the use case.

Steve Wheen 26:32
Thank you so much for joining us hash will add all of those links in the description below this podcast. And thank you for listening. Please do follow us on social at We Are distillery get involved in the conversation hashtag distillery sessions, and I'll see you shortly for another episode in our web three series.