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Narrator: You're listening to
the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas and learning,
or the SKIL framework.

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Haseeb Budhani: VR, even in this
economy at a point where there's

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not enough talent available in
this space, who understands and

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can operate Kubernetes not just
bring up the cluster right?

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Again, these are simple things,
like truly running this at an

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enterprise scale is a very hard
scale.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to the
Humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm

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Evelen Oehrlich, Chief Research
Officer at DevOps Institute. The

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name Kubernetes originates from
Greek meaning Helmsman, or

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pilot. I've also heard
Kubernetes, often described as

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the Linux of the cloud. And
today is the most popular

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container orchestration platform
for multiple reasons. Kubernetes

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burst onto the it developer
scene in 2014, when Google

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released it as an open source
version of its Borg technology,

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which which they developed as a
way to run 1000s of jobs and

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applications across multiple
clusters and machines. Since

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then, the technology actually
has spread far and wide. It is a

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key part of managing
applications in data via

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containers, and Gartner projects
to reach this technology to

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reach 944 million by 2024.
Today, I'm excited to have with

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us Haseeb Budhani, who is co
founder and CEO at Rafay

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Systems. Hello, welcome to the
podcast. Haseeb.

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Haseeb Budhani: Hi, everyone.
Nice to talk to you. And thank

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you for having me.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yes, I did
some googling you and looked at

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your of course, LinkedIn
profile, you have done a lot of

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things I had to scroll and
scroll and scroll, all these

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different types of things you
will have been doing maybe give

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us a cliff notes of what have
you been up to before you were

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advice systems, the CEO and
founder?

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Haseeb Budhani: Sure, since
undergrad, I have been fortunate

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enough. In fact, while I was I
was a senior in college, I did a

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number of internships in my in
my time at USC. And the very

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last internship I did was with a
company that was writing

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shopping cart software. This is
back this fall of 99. Not going

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to exactly how old I am. That
was my senior in college. And

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yeah, these guys were doing some
crazy things, writing this thing

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called a shopping cart. And they
were desperately hiring

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engineers. And they give me
Yeah. And it was a lot of fun.

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It was it was crazy. So before
then I'd worked at Cisco and

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done a set internship at Cisco
and an internship at Ericsson.

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And I had a sense for how those
companies weren't, these are big

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companies. But this other
company, it was just crazy.

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These people didn't sleep. They
just kept burning code. And it

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was awesome. So having once I
finished that internship, then I

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started applying for four full
time jobs. I just wanted to work

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at startups. I just wanted to
find companies and I didn't have

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the concept or appreciation as a
21 year or for for stock or

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anything had no idea I cared
about was about these these

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companies. Well, you know, they
pay well, they don't pay as well

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as a Cisco perhaps. But wow, you
get to work on some amazing

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things. And that's what I did.
My first job out of college was

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at a start as a startup, which
was called Publix. And that

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solve for single sign on. It's
one of the first companies that

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were doing single sign on in our
industry. So it was not a thing

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at the time, but they were doing
it under another startup. And in

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the process. I think I just you
know, good or bad, I learned a

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lot of a lot of different
things. And that's been you

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know, it was a lot of fun. And
truly, I believe that had I not

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done those things, I would not
have had the opportunity to work

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on startups that last 1012 years
that I've been, you know, in

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some fashion of founder or
whatever. Yeah, just small

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decisions, or very small
decisions can put you on these

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paths. And I think back a lot to
that one specific afternoon when

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we had this career day. And I
decided to talk to these crazy

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people back at USC and that
became you know, my pad had a

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mountain that hadn't taken a job
at Cisco because I had an offer

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from Cisco when you when you
graduate come work here and I

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didn't take it. Yeah, I always
worked at startups. Only work at

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large companies through some
pathway positions that have not

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worked at I've never it's been a
long time since I've actually

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applied for a job in a large
company. That's become my my

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personality but the The most
important thing I do here, or I

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require companies is, as a CEO,
my primary job is sales. Like my

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job is to give our customers the
clarity as to why the company

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exists, why raffia exists? Well,
like any other company, when

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I've worked at why does this
company need to exist, rather,

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and how this can make their life
better? By getting people to

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their point of clarity so that
they can go, I see how I could

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use it. There's nothing like it.
I mean, that's, that's what

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drives me. Right? So I enjoy
that more than anything else.

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And particularly if you have
the, you know, somewhat of a

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technical background, I happen
to have one. It's, it's great,

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right? So anybody working on new
technologies, we all have to

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understand it. I mean, we can
create technologies, we can sell

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it, it doesn't really matter.
It's like a tree that fell in

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the forest, or it doesn't
matter. But being able to build

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something, and then being able
to articulate why. And why

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should you care? Right, that is,
arguably the more important

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thing. And if you can figure
that out, you know, you're gonna

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have a lot of fun in this
industry.

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Eveline Oehrlich: That leads me
to one of the factoids, I found

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rough AI systems was actually
named as one of the hardest one

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of the 10 Hottest humanity
startups of 2022. By CNR. It's a

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channel magazine, but that's
great. So two questions for you.

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What does Rafay Systems do?
First, and what has put you on

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the list of the top 10 startups
and like you said, of course,

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your startup, your passion for
startups, probably has something

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to do with it. But help help our
listeners, as those are many of

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them are developers, I owe, you
know, geeks and good geeks. Help

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them understand what does Rafay
Systems do? And how did you make

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it to this top 10 startups.

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Haseeb Budhani: So Rafay is in
the Kubernetes management space.

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Kubernetes is, oh my god,
there's like hundreds of

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companies, something in
Kubernetes. It's a very noisy,

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very busy space. But when I
think about what we do, like,

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fundamentally, we solve a people
problem in this company. Every

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enterprise, we telco, any
company that has software that

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they're deploying, going
forward, it will be

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containerized, or some function,
because they want move fast as a

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company. And in many cases,
majority of cases for companies

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will pick Kubernetes, as our
orchestration engine, you

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describe Kubernetes has been the
fastest growing container

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orchestration platform out
there. It's it's the de facto

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standard, if not the standard
presently. But it brings with it

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a number of complications. Just
because you have an

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orchestration engine doesn't
mean you as an enterprise can

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consume it easily. You have a
number of constituencies inside

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your company, there's security,
there's operations as

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developers, there's all these
other different people and

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multiple development
organizations inside every

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enterprise. They all have to
work together somehow. It's a

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people problem, everything is a
people problem. And to that end,

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what you've what you've
attempted to solve for, and it

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seems like you've done a really
good job, and you have a really

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nice roster of customers who use
the product daily, is that

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they've thought through what it
takes for an enterprise to

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really build shared services
platform for Kubernetes. How do

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you deliver Kubernetes as a
service inside your enterprise?

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And what that means is not just
the material cluster, that's the

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easy part, building a cluster or
creating a Kubernetes cluster.

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That's not the issue. That's a
solved problem. In my mind, the

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real problem is, who has access
to what do we know what they're

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doing? Can we do this
consistently? Can we can we

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update patches consistently
across our fleet of clusters?

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can I provide different levels
of access to different teams? If

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certain teams have networking
requirements that are different

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from other network teams? How
about how do I make that happen?

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And how do I do all of this
centrally with the right level

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of governance? This is how
enterprises pay. If you solve

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that problem in the context of
Kubernetes, of course, it's

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solving a technology problem.
But really, you're solving a

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people problem. Because the
skill set is it takes time to

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build a skill set. We are even
in this economy at a point where

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there's not enough talent
available in this space, who

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understands and can operate
Kubernetes not just bring up a

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cluster right? Again, these are
simple things like truly running

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this at an enterprise scale is a
very hard skill. Every

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enterprise is looking for those
people and they're not able to

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find them. And what we are
telling them is we will help you

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augment your teams with software
automation. That's what we sell.

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Fundamentally what we're selling
is automation that augments an

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existing team. And the beauty of
the right automation is that a

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the enterprise they get up and
running now. They don't need to

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wait a while to hire Are people
and then build a platform

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because we sell them a platform.
But to me the more important

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thing, and this, I think, long
term is the right way to think

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about any technology, the people
in the organization that are in

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our customer, who are not
experts at Kubernetes, by

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working with our product, and by
working with our support

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organization, they actually
ended up becoming experts. If

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you can, in sort of, indirectly
or perhaps as a byproduct, get

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people, you know, sort of, you
know, adept at Kubernetes, and

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all the things that happened
around it, right. That is, that

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is generally good for our for
our community, all right,

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industry, right. So we sell a
great product, the enterprise is

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happy, because they can now move
much faster, right? They're TCO

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is lower because they can do
this today, etc. They don't need

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to wait to hire another 510 15
people. But the existing IT

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engineers and I'm using the word
it very loosely, we call them

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DevOps, right depends on the on
the function they have. And then

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broadly speaking it, they all
get to learn this new

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technology, which is going to be
with us for at least 10 years,

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if not going to be all over time
after learn this. And yeah, we

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take pride in saying that our
customers, their engineers, you

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know, months into our
engagement, Rafi, yes, the

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enterprise is better off, but
the engineers are better off to

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, we'll
get to the future, hold that

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thought on where this is going.
Because that I want to dive into

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that a little bit deeper. But
back to what you were just

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saying. So we do now 22 was a
great year for Kubernetes. And

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we've had in our organization,
lots of questions for upskilling

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in this topic. While it was
initially viewed as something

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only really large enterprises
could benefit from, we know that

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it has improved in usability,
most likely because as you said,

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skills have gone up. But there
are still some challenges. Now,

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there are some technical
challenges with it. What would

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you say if you think about your
clients, those you speak to

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every day? What are some of the
biggest challenges leveraging

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Kubernetes these days, and just
for right now just focus on the

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technology in itself? Because I
know there's a few. And then

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we'll move further on once we're
done with that towards the you

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already said that, which is
music to my ears, the skills and

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the skill development and the
reduction of toil and all of

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that? Well, we'll get to that
right now. Let's just focus and

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hone in a little bit on the
technical challenges you you

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see.

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Haseeb Budhani: Yeah,
absolutely. So many people ask,

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you know, what does Rafay do,
and I use the phrase Kubernetes

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management, I didn't use the
phrase Kubernetes for the

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following reason. In my mind,
the the biggest player in the

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Kubernetes space is AWS, they
provide an engine or product

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called COVID PKS elastic
Kubernetes. Service, which is,

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as far as I know, the most used
Kubernetes offering right now.

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So Amazon is the Kubernetes
company. So then what is rapid?

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So once a customer decides I'm
going to use maybe Amazon's

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Kubernetes, maybe something
else, Azure, then they start a

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journey, where they have to now
figure out, okay, how do I

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automate the provisioning of
these clusters? There's

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automation for that, and then
people who know different types

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of technologies, right,
TerraForm, etc, then I need to

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understand how to upgrade these
things. Okay, there's automation

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for that, that you have to kind
of figure out, then I need to

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understand what are the
components that need to run on

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this Kubernetes cluster, so that
my applications can consume it.

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They're all sort of raw out of
the gate. So then you have to

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learn these things. Then
Security says, Well, you really

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need to make sure the right
people have access to the right

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thing. So we have to think about
what based access control and

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the right level of identity and
the right level of access, tie

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this back to the enterprise
Single Sign On system. We should

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really audit everything. who's
doing what? Okay. All right,

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let's go figure that out. While
we're on the point of

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Kubernetes, is deploy
applications. So case, we should

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have pipelines of some sort,
connecting back to maybe GitHub

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00:14:13,570 --> 00:14:17,800
or GitLab. Right? So we got to
figure that out. Hey, we have

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certificates that we're pushing
into these clusters, for, you

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know, TLS termination, we really
should think about some sort of

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secrets management. Okay, well,
let's go figure that out. And

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chargebacks, service mesh,
network policies and Kubernetes

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policies, which is different
from their policies, and then

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really, developers need access.
So we should really think about

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it the right developer
experience. And so each of these

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things, and there's, depending
on the situation, there could be

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many other things to do. And
this is a challenge right now in

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this industry, right? Nobody's
written a book. I'm sure there's

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a Kubernetes for Dummies, I'm
sure there is. But but it

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00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,320
doesn't talk about what it takes
to not just get the toy up and

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running. But to truly consume
this as an enterprise. By that

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framework, what I just described
as a is a function of mine just

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experience working with
customers. But you know, there's

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no Bible here. Maybe you should
write one, I don't know. But

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this is the challenge, right?
And we're and the worry I have

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right now is that when
enterprises jumped into this,

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they don't know all these
things. Now, could they know,

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they just started, right? And
initially, everything seems

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easy. What's the big deal? I
just go to the console, I build

250
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a cluster, boom, boom, boom,
it's working. See, I can do

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Kotlin. But then start the real
challenge. Right, and now it

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takes a year, who knows how long
it's going to take depends on

253
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the size of the company. And
that's not okay. Right? This is

254
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this is a detriment, right? This
is going to get in the way of

255
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progress. Right. So obviously,
when when you see gaps startups

256
00:15:50,290 --> 00:15:53,440
come about, and Rafi solve that
problem, our job is a, we're

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going to make for example, Eks,
or Azure Kubernetes, which is

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AKs, we're gonna make it out of
the box enterprise ready, and

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we're gonna help you manage n
number of views across clouds if

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you want. So we solve that
specific gap. But but this is a

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really hot technology promise.
So our customers are pretty

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sophisticated engineers, and
they're all very smart people.

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This is what I actually really
enjoy about this, this specific

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job. I'm not trying to, I don't
need to convince anybody of the

265
00:16:21,010 --> 00:16:24,970
problem, right? We have open
conversations, and they get to

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the point of clarity, I get what
the gaps are. But but sometimes

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they don't know what the gaps
are, unless they experience

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that. But experiential learning
takes time. Right? You're going

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to take a year, 18 months to
figure out what you don't know,

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or what is missing. But your
company just launched 18 months,

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this is the technology issue,
right now in our industry. But

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we're a small company,
relatively speaking. So it's not

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like I can I can solve this for
everybody. But this is what I

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think about all day long. By
this. Sometimes we as an

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industry have the you know, we
do something that is bad, which

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is reserved, you know,
trivialize the the, you know,

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the complexity. Everything is
easy. Look how easy it is look,

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one command, and it's all done.
Now, let's just have real

279
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,600
conversations about yes, indeed,
this is hard. That's okay.

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00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:13,990
Because it's hard doesn't mean
it's bad. It just means I need

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00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:15,790
to step back and think about how
am I going to solve for the

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complexity? I think it's better
to have that open conversation

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00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:23,470
versus try to kind of, you know,
hide this or not hide as hide is

284
00:17:23,470 --> 00:17:27,160
a strong word, but just, you
know, trivializing this or, or

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00:17:27,190 --> 00:17:31,840
trying to minimalize This is not
okay. Right. And I truly believe

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that this is hurting a lot of
enterprises or companies in

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00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,160
general, who are starting to
join it because they are not

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00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,190
aware of how complex that
technology is. And if they were,

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00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:40,990
they would make better
decisions. And maybe some of

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00:17:40,990 --> 00:17:45,250
them will say, this is not for
me, that's okay. But still, we

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00:17:45,250 --> 00:17:49,120
have to give them that clarity
upfront, it's complex, here are

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00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:53,800
ways to solve it. That will over
kind of, you know, at the macro

293
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,250
level that will help this
industry more than a specific

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00:17:57,250 --> 00:18:00,550
vendor who's trying to get to a
sale. Don't think like that, I

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00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:04,690
think at the at the macro level,
give people that education and

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00:18:04,690 --> 00:18:06,310
that clarity, and I think that's
good for all.

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00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:12,700
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Eveline Oehrlich: And I think as
technologists, I've seen this

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00:18:59,350 --> 00:19:04,210
over and over in conversations
with CIOs and VPs where they

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00:19:04,210 --> 00:19:09,550
have been promised by their
teams that oh, yeah, this shiny

312
00:19:09,550 --> 00:19:12,760
new object can help us
immediately to increase flow,

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00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,720
velocity, speed, quality,
whatever. And those executives

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00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,340
promise that onto the partner in
business, and six months into

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00:19:21,340 --> 00:19:26,710
the journey or 12 months, maybe
longer even then they are all

316
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:30,130
disappointed because it hasn't
achieved the outcome they have

317
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,150
been thinking about right. And I
think you hit as we say in

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00:19:34,150 --> 00:19:38,050
Germany, the nail right on its
head where we sit everywhere.

319
00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:41,710
Yeah, we you need to be
realistic about setting

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00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:44,410
expectations and making sure
that we have these

321
00:19:44,410 --> 00:19:48,130
conversations. Sometimes they're
hard. You did mention a few

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00:19:48,130 --> 00:19:52,030
things earlier, around the
challenges relative to people

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00:19:52,030 --> 00:19:56,470
and organizations, right you and
in your examples, I could hear

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00:19:56,470 --> 00:20:00,910
some of that because we've still
silos now Add sometimes a bad

325
00:20:00,910 --> 00:20:04,270
word because we have experts in
certain areas, right? Even

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00:20:04,270 --> 00:20:07,570
though we have dev SEC ops, the
security team is not yet as

327
00:20:07,570 --> 00:20:13,000
integrated as it should be. And
so my curiosity is around people

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00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,480
and organizational challenges
relative to Kubernetes. In

329
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,650
bringing in such technology,
what do you see your clients do?

330
00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:24,610
And what, what's what works?
Because many of our listeners,

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00:20:24,610 --> 00:20:28,240
I'm sure say, Yeah, okay, we've
done this, but it fell flat on

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00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,870
its head, and it hasn't failed.
Because it's Cuban Eddie's which

333
00:20:31,870 --> 00:20:35,410
didn't work. It failed for
cultural reasons.

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00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:39,070
Haseeb Budhani: Yeah, there's,
there's some influence we have.

335
00:20:39,070 --> 00:20:40,870
And there's, of course, you
know, as a vendor, some

336
00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:43,930
influences we don't have when we
get to see a lot of stuff. What

337
00:20:43,930 --> 00:20:48,850
one investment we've made in
this company, which is perhaps

338
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,710
unorthodox is that we built a
service delivery team, in the

339
00:20:53,710 --> 00:20:59,770
company. And the point of this
organization is, when a customer

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00:20:59,770 --> 00:21:04,210
says, people do talk to them, we
sort of, you know, agree that

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00:21:04,210 --> 00:21:06,610
they should try the product, and
then we try the product. And so

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00:21:06,610 --> 00:21:09,130
this is pretty awesome, I should
buy it. And then they buy it.

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00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,880
And then what, right, just
because you did a POC doesn't

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00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,030
mean it's it's plugged into your
into your company, right? That

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00:21:16,030 --> 00:21:19,600
that's a process, right? A lot
of people have to be educated to

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00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,600
bring developers and say, Hey,
here's a, here's a platform, and

347
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,260
you want to think about ABC. So
So we saw that happen again, and

348
00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:30,160
again, where the where the
customers would basically go

349
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,390
through this internal process,
right, where they try to build a

350
00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:37,510
framework, and they try to
invite developers and try to

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00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:40,390
sort of, you know, convince the
developers internally, hey,

352
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:43,180
don't do this yourself anymore.
It's waste of your time, here's

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00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:44,530
a better platform, and we're
gonna give you all the

354
00:21:44,530 --> 00:21:47,830
automations. So we decided, you
know, what, we're gonna build a

355
00:21:47,860 --> 00:21:51,340
program. We're just going to do
it for you, for you, Mr.

356
00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:54,460
Customer. So we build the
program. So we kind of walk once

357
00:21:54,460 --> 00:21:57,310
the deal is almost done, or
whatever, it's in contracts, we

358
00:21:57,310 --> 00:21:59,290
say, hey, look, we have a team,
they're gonna engage with you.

359
00:21:59,470 --> 00:22:03,220
And they're gonna help you get
to that finish line, whatever

360
00:22:03,220 --> 00:22:05,590
that means to you. Right? It
could be bring these 10 teams

361
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:08,380
over to eat gas, perhaps Right?
Or whatever, or on prem

362
00:22:08,380 --> 00:22:11,950
Kubernetes doesn't. So we did
this for the following reason,

363
00:22:11,950 --> 00:22:16,720
because it is hard, right? Like,
everything boils down to, this

364
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,050
is new. I know that we have been
talking about Kubernetes as a

365
00:22:20,050 --> 00:22:23,050
community for I don't even know,
whatever, whatever, no, six

366
00:22:23,050 --> 00:22:26,650
years something like that sucks.
Yeah, I meet customers all the

367
00:22:26,650 --> 00:22:29,380
time, who say, Oh, I've been
working on this for seven years?

368
00:22:29,380 --> 00:22:31,390
And I'd actually tell them
honestly, seven years ago, I had

369
00:22:31,390 --> 00:22:34,540
no idea. I never heard of it. I
heard about Kubernetes, five

370
00:22:34,540 --> 00:22:40,420
years. All right. Okay. So it's
new, right? Even now, many,

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00:22:40,420 --> 00:22:42,790
many, many enterprises who are
working on Kubernetes are

372
00:22:42,790 --> 00:22:46,630
probably in the first year of
using. So how can they know?

373
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Right? These are things that are
not obvious, right? How do you

374
00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:53,140
build a practice? around
Kubernetes? And this is where we

375
00:22:53,140 --> 00:22:56,440
see a lot of toil, right? This
is where we see projects fail.

376
00:22:56,890 --> 00:23:00,220
in companies where they buy
something, and then well,

377
00:23:00,250 --> 00:23:03,160
nothing happens. Right. And it's
not that the product is good or

378
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,200
bad, right? You've seen enough
of our competitors kind of go

379
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,020
through this and we're learning
from, you know, you know, we're

380
00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:10,420
standing on the shoulders of
giants, as they say, and we're

381
00:23:10,420 --> 00:23:13,300
learning from others who have
come before us. And the biggest

382
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:16,990
mistake, I see the two mistakes
I see that have been made in

383
00:23:16,990 --> 00:23:22,120
this industry by other vendors.
One is that they really focus on

384
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:25,120
Kubernetes and not Kubernetes
management. And this is what we

385
00:23:25,150 --> 00:23:27,310
discussed earlier in the call,
what is the distinction between

386
00:23:27,310 --> 00:23:30,310
just a cluster and all the other
things that need to happen. And

387
00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:33,310
the second one was they did not
invest in helping their

388
00:23:33,310 --> 00:23:38,230
customers. They relied on, you
know, systems integrators or

389
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:42,160
somebody else your problem, go
figure. And that's a hit or

390
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,730
miss. Don't do that be happy to
help our customers get up and

391
00:23:45,730 --> 00:23:48,610
running. Selfishly, obviously,
because you want to make money

392
00:23:48,610 --> 00:23:50,740
and you don't want to see churn.
But but more importantly,

393
00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:55,330
because our customers spend two,
three months doing a POC, they

394
00:23:55,330 --> 00:23:58,330
spent money, we want to make
sure they get value out of the

395
00:23:58,330 --> 00:24:01,660
money, and not just park our
solutions on our shelves or

396
00:24:01,660 --> 00:24:04,270
whatever. Right? This is
something that has been really

397
00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:07,030
important. It's been a massive
game changer for us as a

398
00:24:07,030 --> 00:24:09,970
company. Because yeah, that
customers actually use a product

399
00:24:09,970 --> 00:24:13,750
and they're happy. And happy
customers will people who are

400
00:24:13,930 --> 00:24:17,680
right, because they're solving a
problem. But this this is I'm

401
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,900
telling you the story because
all of this ties back to the

402
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:28,840
complexity, the the the unknowns
in this space, what do I have to

403
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,600
do? Right? And if we've seen
this enough times are we have

404
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,660
enough customers, if we can
essentially educate our

405
00:24:34,660 --> 00:24:36,760
customers and we don't charge
for this, right? This is part of

406
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,660
our our engagement, right? We're
gonna help you come up with a

407
00:24:40,660 --> 00:24:43,990
framework that we've seen work
and I don't know 10s and 10s of

408
00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:46,660
other companies who want to do
something else that's okay. But

409
00:24:46,660 --> 00:24:50,110
here's what others have done.
Here's how their standard

410
00:24:50,110 --> 00:24:56,350
operating procedure or center
operating model ends up being as

411
00:24:56,350 --> 00:24:58,300
it relates to Kubernetes
management and you know, please

412
00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:00,880
consider taking these actions
under reality is most customer

413
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,340
said, This is awesome. This is
going to make my life easy. I

414
00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:07,300
don't need to invent a process,
you are giving me a process. We

415
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:10,450
do this because of the problem
you described, which is, yeah,

416
00:25:10,540 --> 00:25:14,410
complexity. So many things that
are not known people are

417
00:25:14,410 --> 00:25:16,720
learning on the job, because
well, how can they not happen to

418
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,390
know before? Right? We can't
expect them to know these

419
00:25:19,390 --> 00:25:21,340
things. Right? Now. It's
possible. They've never done

420
00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:25,540
this. It's unfair to expect
this, from engineers who tell

421
00:25:25,540 --> 00:25:29,260
perhaps a year ago, we're
working on your cloud, or even

422
00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:32,020
VMware infrastructure in our
data center, we can't expect

423
00:25:32,020 --> 00:25:35,380
them to become PhDs in
Kubernetes, or that's completely

424
00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:43,570
unfair. We have to help. Right?
And we do. So I love

425
00:25:43,589 --> 00:25:45,899
Eveline Oehrlich: it. So there's
tons of knowledge transfer

426
00:25:45,899 --> 00:25:48,569
during those projects, I'm
assuming or do during the

427
00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:53,609
activities. Now I've heard,
we've heard platform

428
00:25:53,609 --> 00:25:57,449
engineering. And we've seen
quite a few organizations adopt

429
00:25:57,449 --> 00:26:02,399
platform engineering, when we
did a survey on sre. We saw that

430
00:26:02,399 --> 00:26:07,799
a very, let's say, not
predominant yet, but a very

431
00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:13,319
popular way to shape and frame
an organization. And then the

432
00:26:13,319 --> 00:26:16,469
other term is developer
experience. Those are two terms,

433
00:26:16,469 --> 00:26:20,099
which every day we get a
question on. Okay, how do we

434
00:26:20,099 --> 00:26:25,259
start? What do we do? I would
like you to just kind of reflect

435
00:26:25,259 --> 00:26:29,669
a little bit on the two terms,
developer experience, of course,

436
00:26:29,699 --> 00:26:33,209
and then the platform
engineering, particularly there,

437
00:26:33,209 --> 00:26:36,059
maybe drill down a little bit
into the pros and cons, what do

438
00:26:36,059 --> 00:26:39,389
you see, relative to platform
engineering?

439
00:26:40,859 --> 00:26:47,249
Haseeb Budhani: Yeah, so our
customer, in pretty much every

440
00:26:47,249 --> 00:26:53,279
account is a platform engineer,
to be sent to. And we look for

441
00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:56,519
them. Sometimes the name of the
team perhaps is not, not from

442
00:26:56,519 --> 00:26:58,379
engineering. I mean, you know,
they may call themselves

443
00:26:58,379 --> 00:27:00,689
infrastructure engineering, or
cloud operations or something,

444
00:27:00,689 --> 00:27:03,449
but but they are the ones who
are responsible for delivering,

445
00:27:04,979 --> 00:27:10,049
essentially, these platform
ties, concepts, and Kubernetes

446
00:27:10,049 --> 00:27:13,289
is one of them, because they
don't want to have and maybe we

447
00:27:13,289 --> 00:27:15,659
can take a step back and think
about why is this even

448
00:27:15,659 --> 00:27:19,589
happening? Why does a baton
exist, which, which is a, which

449
00:27:19,589 --> 00:27:24,899
is a really interesting thing to
think about what has happened

450
00:27:24,899 --> 00:27:27,539
beforehand, at least in the
context of Kubernetes, it

451
00:27:27,539 --> 00:27:30,389
applies elsewhere, as well, I'm
sure it's clearly applies to

452
00:27:30,389 --> 00:27:35,129
cloud, what's happened is some
development team, they decide,

453
00:27:35,909 --> 00:27:38,129
hey, these container things are
pretty awesome. They allow us to

454
00:27:38,129 --> 00:27:40,799
move very fast. So you know
what, we're gonna do this, we're

455
00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:46,529
just gonna do this container
saying and they go to it, or at

456
00:27:46,529 --> 00:27:48,569
that time, maybe cloud
engineering, and this entity

457
00:27:48,629 --> 00:27:51,899
isn't anything like Kubernetes.
And they probably say, No, this

458
00:27:51,899 --> 00:27:54,389
is not something that we provide
today, they go, no problem, I'll

459
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:57,149
just do it myself. But these
developers essentially go to the

460
00:27:57,149 --> 00:28:00,569
cloud and their developers, but
they'll figure it out. They go

461
00:28:00,569 --> 00:28:03,389
provision infrastructure,
Kubernetes. And they now run

462
00:28:03,389 --> 00:28:06,899
their applications. Okay, now a
second team shows up and says,

463
00:28:06,899 --> 00:28:09,509
Well, this is really cool, we
should do the same. And then a

464
00:28:09,509 --> 00:28:14,819
third one. Now, what's going to
happen is the skill set is going

465
00:28:14,819 --> 00:28:18,539
to perhaps vary between these
and teams. But here's the most

466
00:28:18,539 --> 00:28:22,469
important thing. You are now
missing resources, by

467
00:28:22,469 --> 00:28:24,089
definition, because three
different teams are doing

468
00:28:24,089 --> 00:28:28,229
business, in a sense is not good
for your business. Somebody

469
00:28:28,229 --> 00:28:30,959
should do this, if indeed
multiple teams needed, it should

470
00:28:30,959 --> 00:28:34,349
happen separately, is simple. It
should happen centrally, why

471
00:28:34,349 --> 00:28:37,649
would you have every team do
this, because then the processes

472
00:28:37,649 --> 00:28:42,389
are, are not standardized. We no
one will use one methodology and

473
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:46,559
one will use another and why let
them do the thing you pay them

474
00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:49,259
for, which is not Kubernetes.
It's the application, let them

475
00:28:49,259 --> 00:28:53,399
write the app, you do the
Kubernetes for them. In comes

476
00:28:53,399 --> 00:28:57,059
about from engineering. But now
the platform engineering

477
00:28:57,059 --> 00:28:59,609
organization is not just solving
for, I just need an app

478
00:28:59,609 --> 00:29:01,709
deployed, they have to solve for
the other enterprise problems

479
00:29:01,709 --> 00:29:04,019
that we talked about earlier.
Right, because they're part of

480
00:29:04,139 --> 00:29:07,169
the IT function. And they have
to think in terms of risk and

481
00:29:07,169 --> 00:29:09,569
compliance and security. All
these other things have to be

482
00:29:09,959 --> 00:29:12,569
thought about as well that
perhaps the developers will not

483
00:29:12,929 --> 00:29:15,989
prioritized because they want to
write their application. This is

484
00:29:15,989 --> 00:29:18,869
why platform engineering teams
exist. And these are the

485
00:29:18,869 --> 00:29:21,089
customers that we sell to and we
make them successful. But here's

486
00:29:21,089 --> 00:29:26,399
the thing, we have to really
understand who is our customers

487
00:29:26,399 --> 00:29:30,479
customer? So our customers
platform engineering, who is

488
00:29:30,479 --> 00:29:34,109
their customer, the developer,
if there are no developers who

489
00:29:34,109 --> 00:29:37,169
want to use containers and
Kubernetes. Well, there's no

490
00:29:37,169 --> 00:29:39,179
need for any of this stuff.
Right? What is the point of

491
00:29:39,179 --> 00:29:42,029
Kubernetes? If no, nobody's ever
going to run things, right? So

492
00:29:42,029 --> 00:29:46,379
the developer has to actually be
really happy with the experience

493
00:29:46,379 --> 00:29:49,709
that they get when they interact
with this new platform from

494
00:29:49,919 --> 00:29:54,989
vendor x. Right. Let's not bring
it off into this. So it behooves

495
00:29:54,989 --> 00:29:57,569
us to understand what is the
developer need? Because if

496
00:29:57,569 --> 00:29:59,969
they're not happy, well, end of
the day, there is no sale here.

497
00:30:00,959 --> 00:30:03,959
So we have to invest time in
this. And we have, what do they

498
00:30:03,959 --> 00:30:08,219
need? What is their pipeline of
choice? What is their experience

499
00:30:08,249 --> 00:30:12,539
expectation around debugging of
applications? What is the

500
00:30:12,539 --> 00:30:16,619
experience expectation around
self service, right, some things

501
00:30:16,619 --> 00:30:19,619
they want to do themselves. And
sometimes they want to do a lot

502
00:30:19,619 --> 00:30:21,359
of things themselves, and the
company is okay with it.

503
00:30:21,449 --> 00:30:24,659
Sometimes the company makes a
decision, these things platform

504
00:30:24,659 --> 00:30:28,559
or do these other things
developers can do. And look at

505
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:32,039
turns out, we have to be in the
midst of that, if we are not,

506
00:30:32,219 --> 00:30:36,239
we're very, very ignoring,
actually the most important

507
00:30:36,239 --> 00:30:40,259
constituent here, the developer,
who is not our direct customer,

508
00:30:40,859 --> 00:30:43,919
and that's okay. But he's our
customer, customer, she or they

509
00:30:43,919 --> 00:30:47,699
are our customers customer. And
we have to understand what it

510
00:30:47,699 --> 00:30:51,359
takes for the platform team to
make their life better. And we

511
00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:57,119
spend a lot we spend inordinate
amount of time, try to make that

512
00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:00,299
better and better and better. So
today, we be proud a lot of

513
00:31:00,299 --> 00:31:02,849
capabilities to make developers
really happy in our platform.

514
00:31:04,619 --> 00:31:07,739
And we continue to make
investments like as an example

515
00:31:08,609 --> 00:31:11,639
var, spending a lot of time
looking at something like

516
00:31:11,639 --> 00:31:14,579
backstage that I'm sure you're
sure you've seen backstages? Or

517
00:31:14,579 --> 00:31:18,239
is an overnight sensation in our
industry to understand what does

518
00:31:18,239 --> 00:31:24,449
it take to help teams Aaron
backstages service in house and

519
00:31:24,449 --> 00:31:28,949
then be, you know, make it easy
for them to use the Kubernetes

520
00:31:28,949 --> 00:31:31,709
or other plugins that they need
to backstage and then allow them

521
00:31:31,709 --> 00:31:35,309
to build their own dashboards
with backstage? Yeah, this is

522
00:31:35,339 --> 00:31:38,099
like the two words you describe
map like from engineering and

523
00:31:38,099 --> 00:31:43,739
developer experience. These are
the two equally weighted, you

524
00:31:43,739 --> 00:31:47,159
know, core tenets of our
platform. If they're not, we're

525
00:31:47,159 --> 00:31:50,429
never going to be a lasting
company. You have soccer balls.

526
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:53,310
Eveline Oehrlich: Right,
beautiful. I have two more

527
00:31:53,310 --> 00:31:57,300
questions. One is technical one
is fun. So let's do the

528
00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:00,360
technical first, and we'll go to
the fun. You alluded a little

529
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,860
bit to the future of Kubernetes.
So if you have to bring out that

530
00:32:04,860 --> 00:32:09,210
crystal ball, what do you see in
the Kubernetes future?

531
00:32:11,220 --> 00:32:12,960
Haseeb Budhani: I think
Kubernetes is going to be here

532
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:20,550
for a while. So so the future of
applications, or any any modern

533
00:32:20,550 --> 00:32:24,480
application, you know, in the
near term is going to have in my

534
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,910
opinion, you know, some
functions component like a

535
00:32:29,910 --> 00:32:32,670
lambda component in the
application or some

536
00:32:32,670 --> 00:32:37,080
microservices, there'll be some
container containers. And then

537
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,030
there'll be some managed
services, like they'll be using

538
00:32:39,030 --> 00:32:42,180
rds, and AWS or whatever, right?
So this was maybe these Kafka,

539
00:32:42,180 --> 00:32:47,850
these are services that sort of
outside of you. And my view of

540
00:32:47,850 --> 00:32:53,550
the world is that the right
infrastructure management

541
00:32:53,670 --> 00:32:56,700
offering, I said, infrastructure
management, like Kubernetes is

542
00:32:56,700 --> 00:32:59,220
going to help customers
orchestrate all of these things.

543
00:33:00,780 --> 00:33:05,190
You must, because you have to
help truly help somebody, you

544
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:08,040
know, deploy and operate an
application and then enable

545
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,070
developers to do this pilot. So
platform and developers, we're

546
00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:15,180
going to be the two incidents.
Today, RAF is a Kubernetes

547
00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:20,100
company. Five years from now, it
should not be recognized. Fibers

548
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:23,790
mineral raw fish should be a
modern application

549
00:33:23,790 --> 00:33:25,380
infrastructure company. Right.

550
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,920
Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah,
holistically, you're saying I

551
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,310
love that the holistic
management of infrastructure,

552
00:33:34,030 --> 00:33:38,020
towards agility and whatever
else is necessary at the

553
00:33:38,020 --> 00:33:38,980
organization's.

554
00:33:39,130 --> 00:33:40,690
Haseeb Budhani: I think that's
where the mark is going for

555
00:33:40,690 --> 00:33:43,930
sure. And you have to you have
to go there to work today.

556
00:33:45,130 --> 00:33:47,230
Eveline Oehrlich: Yep.
Excellent. Now, the fun

557
00:33:47,230 --> 00:33:52,600
question, what do you do? Yes.
What do you find? If you don't

558
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:56,470
talk to customers, or you don't
think about all these very geeky

559
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:57,910
things? What do you do for fun?

560
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:05,020
Haseeb Budhani: Who has the
time? We have two kids. You have

561
00:34:05,020 --> 00:34:07,720
a 13 year old and a 10 year
oldso there's enough to this

562
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,960
that they have that we sort of
you know, recently as you drive

563
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,670
them around, right, that's your
job. Right. You're the

564
00:34:12,670 --> 00:34:17,950
chauffeurs are here to bear. You
know, we, you know, my son was

565
00:34:17,950 --> 00:34:22,660
10 the a few months ago decided
he's when I was a kid, I used to

566
00:34:22,660 --> 00:34:26,500
play squash. He didn't like the
like badminton. As a family big

567
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:29,980
to play badminton at Stanford. I
live in Menlo Park seven blocks

568
00:34:29,980 --> 00:34:33,010
away from Stanford. Do that, you
know, these are the kinds of

569
00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:38,110
things we do right. Everything
is outside of work. It's the

570
00:34:38,110 --> 00:34:41,500
family. I mean, why do we do all
this work? Why do why do we work

571
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:45,070
this hard? It's because of the
family so you know, all the rest

572
00:34:45,070 --> 00:34:45,760
of the time goes.

573
00:34:46,750 --> 00:34:49,090
Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent.
That sounds like me. I spend a

574
00:34:49,090 --> 00:34:53,110
lot of time on the soccer fields
with my two daughters. When

575
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,070
Yeah, lots of watching soccer
and feeling sad about myself

576
00:34:57,070 --> 00:34:59,110
that I'm so old and I couldn't
play it anymore.

577
00:35:00,850 --> 00:35:03,400
Haseeb Budhani: Soccer last time
I played I'm in my mid 40s

578
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:06,850
minor. My knees will give out.

579
00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:11,567
Eveline Oehrlich: I know. Now
we're watching it on TV and the

580
00:35:11,635 --> 00:35:15,476
last this last session or the
last championship was quite

581
00:35:15,543 --> 00:35:19,856
exciting. Anyway, this has been
great has said thank you so much

582
00:35:19,924 --> 00:35:23,832
for joining me today on humans
of DevOps podcast. I really

583
00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:28,213
appreciate all of your insights
and I know our listeners do that

584
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,054
as well. Again, we've been
talking to Haseeb Budhani, co

585
00:35:32,121 --> 00:35:35,491
founder and CEO of Rafay
Systems. Humans of DevOps

586
00:35:35,558 --> 00:35:39,669
Podcast is produced by DevOps
Institute. Our audio production

587
00:35:39,736 --> 00:35:43,712
team includes Julia Papp and
Brendan Lay. I'm the Humans of

588
00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:47,554
DevOps Podcast executive
producer evolutionarily, if you

589
00:35:47,621 --> 00:35:51,395
would like to join us on a
podcast, please contact us at

590
00:35:51,462 --> 00:35:55,371
humans of DevOps podcast at
DevOps institute.com. That's a

591
00:35:55,438 --> 00:35:59,280
mouthful. I know. I'm Eveline
Oehrlich. Talk to you soon.

592
00:36:01,660 --> 00:36:03,790
Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the Humans of

593
00:36:03,790 --> 00:36:07,330
DevOps Podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

594
00:36:07,330 --> 00:36:10,660
access to even more great
resources like this. Until next

595
00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:14,140
time, remember, you are part of
something bigger than yourself.

596
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:15,220
You belong