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Intro: Hi, I'm Ed Slott,
and I'm Jeff Levine.

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And we are two guys who just love
to talk about retirement and taxes.

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Look, our mission is simple to educate
you, the savers, so that you can make

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better decisions because better decisions
on the whole lead to better outcomes.

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And here's how we're going to do that.

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Each week, Jeff and I will debate
the pros and the cons of a particular

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retirement strategy or topic with the.

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Helping you keep more of
your hard-earned money.

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Yeah, but we won't know which side of
the debate we're taking until we flip

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a coin winner of the coin flip gets to
pick which side of the debate they want

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to argue, and both of us will have to
argue in favor of our respect positions,

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whether we agree with them or not.

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At the end of each debate, there's
going to be one clear winner you, a more

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informed saver who can hopefully apply
the merits of each side of the debate

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to your own personal situation to decide
what's best for you and your family.

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So here we go.

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Welcome to the Great Retirement Debate.

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Jeffrey Levine: Hello
everyone, and welcome back to

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the Great Retirement Debate.

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Ed, how's it today?

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Ed Slott: It's going great.

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I have a great topic, actually.

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We're going to break one of
our usual rules on this one.

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Uh, we generally stay away from politics
and religion, but this will be a religious

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thing to convert or not to convert.

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Jeffrey Levine: Oh yeah, there are
definitely some people who feel pretty,

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pretty feel pretty passionate about that.

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Conversion is a religion for some.

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Oh, wow.

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All right.

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Big topic today at a meaty topic.

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Uh, I, uh, I get to, I guess I get
to pick the coin flip again today.

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So I'm gonna go with tails once again.

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Ed Slott: Ahh, Here we go.

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What is it?

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Uh, tails again.

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You're on a winning
streak from the last few.

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And just so we're clear, convert,
we're talking about converting

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your IRA to a Roth IRA, which may
be a religion for some people.

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Jeffrey Levine: You know, this
is one of those things, Ed, that

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has, uh, lifelong ramifications.

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We're talking about taking an
account that, uh, as you often

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say, is forever taxed, uh, to
an account that is never taxed.

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I can't help it, Ed.

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I, I am gonna, you know, I, part of
me wants to, to leave you with the,

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uh, the option to convert, but, I
gotta argue in favor of conversion.

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I'm gonna leave you with the don't
convert argument on this one.

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I'm sorry, but I think you're getting
the short end of the stick today.

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Ed Slott: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Everybody knows I'm a big Roth fan, but
again, there's two sides to everything,

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and that's the purpose of what we're
doing to give you the pluses, the minuses,

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the benefits and drawbacks so you can
make the decision that's best for you.

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Nothing is all black and white.

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Some things are gray.

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There's no decision even with my
favorite decision to convert to a Roth.

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There are reasons not to.

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Jeffrey Levine: Such as?

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Ed Slott: All right.

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So i'll start it.

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Nobody wants to pay the tax.

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Okay.

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Uh, , if your hand starts shaking
when you find out what it's going to

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cost, and you do have to pay the tax
when you convert from an IRA to a

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Roth IRA, that's what we're talking
about from Forever Tax to Never Tax.

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Everybody wants to get to the Promise
Land, never tax, income tax free for life.

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But there's a price of admission.

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There's no question.

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The Roth IRA is the best
retirement account to own.

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The only question is how much are you
willing to pay for it, like anything else.

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So, uh, that's one of the reasons
some people just don't like

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paying tax before they have to.

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In fact, Jeff, you and I as
CPAs both know, we were both

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trained as accountants to never.

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Ever.

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Pay a tax before you have to
always defer, defer to put it off.

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So here, uh, you, you can defer
and keep deferring it and you

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won't have to pay anything upfront.

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Uh, if you don't convert.

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Jeffrey Levine: Well,
that's a good argument.

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Ed Slott: One arguement
for not converting.

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I have others.

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Jeffrey Levine: All right,
well, well, we're good.

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It's gonna take more than that Ed,
to, to win this argument cause I got

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a lot of ammunition on my side today.

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In fact, you know, you talked about
deferring, deferring, deferring,

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which is, which is great, but
you don't get to do that forever.

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There's a time when, whether or not you
wanna defer, you don't get to choose that.

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It's time to pay the piper.

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Such a time is called the required
beginning date, that is the time

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when you need to start taking
required minimum distributions.

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And as we sit here today, Ed, you
know that's, that's recently changed.

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The Secure Act took us
from age 70 1/2 to age 72.

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More recently, secure Act 2.0
moved that back to 73 for roughly

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the next decade, then to age 75.

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But even at that age, many people still
live beyond it, you know, into their

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80s, 90s, and sometimes even beyond that.

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And at all those more advanced stages,
people must begin taking required

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minimum distributions from their
IRAs, even if they're still working.

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If the money is in an ira, it
doesn't matter whether you're

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working or whether you're not.

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You must take required minimum
distributions from your IRA accounts.

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And here's the thing, some
people are so good at saving.

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And so bad at spending, that they
end up with a lot more money than

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they ever thought they'd have
and that they ever would need.

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Now admittedly, this is a
very first class, uh, problem

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to be dealing with, right?

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I have too much money and too much income.

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But for some folks, once those required
minimum distributions kick in, Between

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those distributions that they have
to take between their social security

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income, between their interest and
dividends and capital gains they

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may have from taxable investments.

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For some folks, God forbid, a pension,
you know, something like that, will all

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of these individuals and these incomes
come together and they can pour somebody

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into a much higher tax rate in retirement
when they're not working and not earning

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than they ever had while they were working
and actually trying to make a living.

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Ed Slott: Uh, yeah.

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You mentioned one thing.

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I wrote that down.

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How do you spell that word?

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You said pensions.

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What was that?

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Jeffrey Levine: It's this, uh, it
kind of, uh, like you know how the

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dinosaurs were a historical artifact?

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Well, pensions came along shortly
after the dinosaurs ended.

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Ed Slott: Yeah.

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Right.

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Jeffrey Levine: And much like
the dinosaurs, they went away

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very quickly in kind of a flash.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Very few people that.

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Ed Slott: It was a check.

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I don't understand.

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These companies, they just gave
X employees money every month

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for the rest of their lives.

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They weren't even working anymore.

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All right.

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Jeffrey Levine: Then the internet
came along and everything went away.

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Ed Slott: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Alright, so here's some other reasons
you may not want to convert and to be

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clear, and Jeff has to agree with this.

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Uh, we're not that he has
to, but I think he will.

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We're not talking about all or nothing.

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A conversion can be partial conversion,
so there's some middle point, you

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know, uh, maybe smaller conversions.

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I'm not talking about whether
to convert all or nothing.

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Some people think that, that's
why I wanted to make that clear.

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So here's an example of somebody who
might benefit from not converting.

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So, For the people who think or maybe are
thinking they're hearing this, I should

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convert everything and then I'll never pay
tax on any of my retirement money, as Jeff

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said, and I'll never have those horrible
RMDs required minimum distributions.

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But if you normally give to charity,
There's a great provision called

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qualified charitable distributions.

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It's one of the best provisions in the
tax code not used nearly enough where

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if you are giving to charity, and I'm
not saying, give all your money to

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charity for a tax benefit, if that was
the case, give all your money away.

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You'll never pay taxes
and you'll be broke.

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I'm talking about if you're
already giving money.

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The whole key to doing the best you
can with retirement savings is to get

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that money out at the lowest possible
tax rate with a qualified charitable

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distribution where you take from your
IRA and you do a direct transfer to

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a qualified charity, you are getting
that money out at 0% tax rates.

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If you converted everything and you
still wanted to do that gifting, you

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wouldn't have any money to gift that
you could get a tax benefit out of.

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Most people get no tax benefit.

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Actually more than 90% according to IRS
statistics get no tax benefit of the

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gifts they're giving to charities cause
most people take the standard deduction.

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Now to qualify for a QCD.

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Not everybody qualifies, but IRA owners
that are aged 70 and a half or older

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and IRA beneficiaries 70 and a half
or older do qualify and if they're 70.

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Oh, here's a question for you, Jeff.

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A tough one.

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Uh, if they're 70 and a
half, are they also over 65?

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Jeffrey Levine: Mm.

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Let's see.

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Ed Slott: All right.

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Time's up.

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Sorry.

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Jeffrey Levine: Ah, I lost it.

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Ed Slott: All right.

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So obviously if you're 70 and a half,
that means it's even more likely you

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won't take the standard deduction
because you get the extra standard

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deduction for being 65 or over.

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So, uh, this is a way to get that
money out to, uh, to fund charitable

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gifts that you were making anyway.

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And you get better than a tax deduction.

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You get an exclusion from income.

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Now, if you converted everything,
you wouldn't have that opportunity

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to get the money out at 0% tax rate.

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So if you are, uh, you normally
give, and I have to believe most

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people give now that it's hard to
tell from tax returns now that most

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people take the standard deduction.

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But when I was doing tax returns where
before the tax law, that changed a lot

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of that where more people itemized.

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I would always ask people,
did you give to charity?

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100%.

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Oh yeah.

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Gave, I gave, you know, I don't know.

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Everybody said nobody ever
said they didn't give.

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So I gotta believe most people give or
they just say so on their tax returns,

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Uh, so, uh, if you're doing that,
I wouldn't convert money you

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intend to give another reason.

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Well, I'll let you chime in.

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I have more reasons not to convert.

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I can't believe the, the words that
are coming outta my mouth here.

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Jeffrey Levine: That's, well,
it's, uh, you know, you mentioned

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something about the IRS and the
IRS gets to implement tax policy.

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But they don't get to make tax
policy that is done by Congress.

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And, uh, if we've learned nothing else
in recent years, it is that Congress,

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uh, can change things kind of, uh,
you know, at the snap of a uh, uh,

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snap of fingers at the drop of a hat.

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Congress can change the rules and one of
those rules is what the tax rates are.

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And today I know what the tax rates are.

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I know what my tax rate is today.

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I don't know what that is
going to be in the future.

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And if we look at things like our
national deficit, our national debt.

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Our, uh, our promises that we've made
to individuals for social security and

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for Medicare and for all these other
things, crumbling infrastructure.

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I mean, at some point the question becomes
will Congress have to raise tax rates?

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And in fact, you know, you talked
about the tax cut and jobs act a

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little bit, the, the tax cut and jobs.

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Lowered taxes or you talked about
in terms of the standard deduction,

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how very few people today itemized.

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But one of the other things it
did was it lowered rates for

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about three quarters of Americans.

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Now that's true at all
income levels, right?

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Not just the ultra wealthy, but people
in more modest income brackets on

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average, saw their tax rates fall.

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And on top of that, uh, if we look
at when that is set to expire, it's

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just a few years from now in 2025.

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Now, I don't know about you,
Ed, but whenever someone asks

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me, will something be extended?

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In other words, will Congress
take action to keep things

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like these lower rates in play?

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The odds are if I, if you force me to
take a side, I'm always going to take

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the under on congressional action.

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Betting on Washington Gridlock and nothing
happening is always the better bet.

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Now doesn't it always happens.

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Sometimes people in Washington actually
do something and they pass laws.

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But if you're gonna make me take
an over or under, I'm gonna take

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the under, which means the tax cut
and Jobs Act rate changes go away.

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People across the country, regardless
of your state, even high tax states

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like New York and California where
the salt deduction cap really hurt.

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On average, each state will see
its individuals and its, uh, its

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residents see lower tax bills,
again, at all income levels.

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And if you're going to see,
excuse me, higher tax bills

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because the lower rates go right.

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And if those lower rates go away
and you're paying a higher tax

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rate down the road, well, wouldn't
I rather pay a lower rate today?

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And again, all of that is assuming
that just the expiration occurs.

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That doesn't even consider Congress
going in there and actually saying,

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Hey, all those things that we just
talked about, the deficit, the, the,

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the debt, the promises, the crumbling
infrastructure, all of these things that

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we need to do to improve the country.

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We're not gonna raise taxes at all.

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I find it hard to believe that today
isn't one of the lowest rates that we will

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see in our lifetime, if not the lowest.

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Ed Slott: They're
historically the lowest rates.

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And you should always get, uh,
like I said, the, the fundamental

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principle of all taxation.

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Always, especially when it comes to IRAs,
always pay taxes at the lowest rates.

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Jeffrey Levine: Well, Ed.

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We covered a lot today, and
you know, we always say there

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are two sides to every coin.

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I'm not sure this coin has fallen yet.

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There seems to be more to debate
here, in fact, so much more.

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This is such a, a meaty topic.

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I, I think we're gonna have to pick
it up again next week and keep going.

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What do you say?

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Ed Slott: Yeah, the, I
like the coin on edge.

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It reminds me, I don't know if you're
an old Twilight Zone fan, but remember

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that one episode with a coin, A guy
flips the coin and he's on edge.

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It's on, it stands up, and
that's the whole episode.

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I do remember that, although the one
I remember most of course is pig face.

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You know that...

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All right, well, let's not go there,
anyway,  it is on edge and we're

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going to continue this, whether
to convert or not to convert.

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And again, as we always say, this
is to provide you information,

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both sides of the issue.

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So we'll see you next time.

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Part two, on whether to convert or not to
a Roth IRA on the Great Retirement Debate.

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Outro: Jeffrey Levine is Chief Planning
Officer for Buckingham Wealth Partners.

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This podcast is for informational and
educational purposes only, and should

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not be construed as specific investment
accounting, legal or tax advice.

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Certain information mentioned may
be based on third party information,

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00:14:16,835 --> 00:14:19,685
which may become outdated or
otherwise superseded without notice.

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00:14:19,745 --> 00:14:22,955
Third party information is deemed to
be reliable, but it's accuracy and

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00:14:22,955 --> 00:14:24,425
completeness cannot be guaranteed.

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The topic discussed in corresponding
arguments are those of the speakers

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and may not accurately reflect
those of Buckingham Wealth partners.