Narrator: You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework.
Dr. Nikki Robinson: You know, it can be it was almost there was
this friction between IT and security. And then when I got
really interested in specifically vulnerability
management and sort of made the hop over to security, I started
seeing those same patterns but from the security side.
Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to Humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm
Eveline Oehrilch, Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute. Our
topic today is focused on Cybersecurity: What You Should
Know. Today we have with us Dr. Nikki Robinson. Let me give you
a little bit about Nikki and her background. I of course, did
some digging into what she has done and give me some time. So
Dr. Robinson, earned a Doctor of Science in cybersecurity has
several industry certifications and is a security architect at
IBM right now and also an adjunct professor. She has more
than 10 years of experience in IT Ops. So Nikki that we have in
common before moving into the security field about three years
ago. She studied vulnerability chaining concepts and completed
her PhD in human factors to combine psychological and
technical aspects to improve security programs. She has a
passion for teaching, obviously, yes, she's an adjunct and
mentoring others on risk management, network defense
strategies, and digital forensics and incident response.
As I said, she's a security architect and has technical
experience and continuous monitoring, risk management,
digital forensics and incident response. She is a speaker at
many conferences on a variety of topics from human factor
security, engineering, malicious website, Grant, graphing and Dev
SecOps. She's also the co host of a podcast titled Resilient
Cyber Podcast with the goal to discuss variety of cybersecurity
and it with many, many subject experts, and many of you might
have listened to her podcast. Finally, one more important
thing. She is a volunteer speaking for InfraGard also
Women in Cyber Chapters, which is why size I think Information
Systems Security Association, which is ISSA, and Cyber Jitsu
Organization, welcome to our podcast. Nikki,
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Thank you so much for having me today.
Eveline Oehrlich: Very excited that you're here. Now, the first
thing you have to talk about is Cyber Jutsu. Can you help me on
that one?
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Sure. Yeah, this is actually a this is a
great organization that they their focus is really a to focus
on getting women into the cybersecurity field. So they're
working to close the gender gap. They're trying to help mentor
young women to get into cybersecurity. And they host all
kinds of events, they do webinars, they do workshops on
everything from Python Programming, and then they do
cyber competitions and capture the flags or CTFs. So they do a
lot of different events to sort of help help encourage young
women to get into cybersecurity. And and they host a lot of
conferences as well.
Eveline Oehrlich: Are they global? Or are they are also
regional events?
Dr. Nikki Robinson: I think I believe both. I know that they
do a lot of regional because I think they have different
chapters, sort of like women in cyber or Rhesus. But But yeah,
so they do have a lot of regional events.
Eveline Oehrlich: Okay, worth checking into. Super. Thank
you.. So as you can imagine, when I did research on your, on
your background, and what you do, and all, all the wonderful
things you have been through and have been studying, and there
was a lot of things I was like, Oh, I would love to talk to you
about that. I would love to talk to you about that. But, of
course, we cannot cover these all. So there are two key things
we want to cover today. First, I want to dive a little bit into
your book minds, the tech, the tech gap, addressing the
conflicts between IT and security. And then second, of
course, because I am a woman and I know we have some women on the
on the show. I want to I want you to share your experience as
women in technology. So those are the two things we're honing
in. I hope you are ready for that. I know you are ready for
that. Thank you. So let's get to the book first. I think that's
the most important one because I think it was published in
October of 22. So not that far, and not that long ago. As I
said, the book was called, or is called Mind the tech gap,
addressing the conflicts between IT and security. So first of
all, congratulations to the application. Fantastic. I think
I'm going to order it because that topic is something which is
also I have something I've researched in my career over the
years. Now in the book, you address, and I quote from the
book from a book review, you're saying, or it says, the long
standing challenges between it and cybersecurity teams, and
you're exploring the different job functions, goals,
relationships, and other factors that might impact how it and
cyber security teams interact. Give us a little bit of an
overview of the book, because I think there are some powerful
things in there, which I would like people to kind of listen
to. So enticing them to actually buy a book, and I'm not trying
to sell your book, I think this is an important piece. Most
folks have not even thought about, and I want you to do a
little bit of a review.
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, thank you,, it's funny, because I'd
had this idea for this book for at least five years now, even
before I got into cybersecurity. So when I was on the IT side of
the house, you know, and working with sort of my security
counterparts on assessments or audits, and literally sitting
through four or five hour long meetings on, you know, security
controls and configurations. And so I was sort of getting this
idea of you it can be it was almost there was this friction
between IT and security, because it was like, Oh, we're having
another audit, or oh, we have another assessment or this or
that, or all security does this or security does that. And then
when I got really interested in specifically vulnerability
management, and sort of made the hop over to security, I started
seeing those same patterns. But from the security side, you
know, seeing sort of the frustration, and the, it won't
do this, or I'm trying to work with development, and we're
trying to get this done. And it's difficult, or it's
challenging. And so that was really what sort of even having
that idea but coming into security and saying, Oh, I'm
seeing this, you know, sort of this frustration and this
friction from both sides. You know, we're both having
challenges working with each other. And it's not because, you
know, we both have important missions, we both have important
goals, but most of the time, those are somewhat conflicting.
So having teams that have conflicting goals and missions,
makes it really challenging to, you know, sort of get together
and make these things happen. And so that was really what
spurred the the idea of the book, and I wanted to dive into
sort of, from a historical context to what traditional job
roles look like, you know, 20 years ago, and how we built, you
know, IT teams and how they look now, and how that sort of plays
into why relationships can sometimes be fractured between
the teams, and ultimately, that that leads to concerns with
risk, you know, and risk management and how do you how do
you manage risk with the people that you know, need to work
together? So that's really sort of the spirit of the book, and,
you know, hoping to shed some light on why these challenges
exist. And then, you know, at the end of the book, I provide
sort of a roadmap for Hey, these are the questions you need to
start asking yourself and your teams, depending on the type of
job role that you have.
Eveline Oehrlich: I love that last part, you said, I think
that is essential for folks listening in having a roadmap to
understand what what can they actually do that actionable
advice, because sometimes, you know, there are books out there,
and I'm done with it. And I put it aside and I'm thinking, Okay,
now what? Yeah, right. It's like, okay, I'm not really sure
I understand, but I don't know what so that is beautiful. Now,
one thing you were under, in the book review, which talks about
that also, of course, you are honing into into something
called empathy, and emotional intelligence. And that is
something which I have keen interest in, as I've done
research for the DevOps Institute on upskilling for the
past five years. And you would not be surprised that I tell you
that the human skills, are there significant gaps there within
it, and they don't go away these and they're particularly around,
you know, having that empathy, having these inter interpersonal
skills and really working and developing collaboration and
coordination with others. So that is quite interesting.
Interesting. And of course, there is action, which means
people should upskill and human skills and we've been kinda like
a preacher pin saying that, but why is it so hard? Why is it so
hard for a reverse it people I'm an IT person, I think I have
human skills plenty. And my kids would tell AMI you do, ma'am.
But why is it so hard sometimes for folks in either on the
security side or on the IT side, no matter what role to think
about that human skill and and adding or working on them? What
are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, I think it's such an important
question to ask because and it's a question I started asking
myself too, because I, you know, working in it, and security for
almost 15 years now, it's one of those things I haven't seen as
part of it programs, traditional IT, whether it's academic or
certification programs, and insecurity as well, I know that
there are some universities out there that teach emotional
intelligence in their IT programs, but I think that's a
newer thing. And I just haven't seen as many programs that tout,
you know, emotion, emotional intelligence, empathy,
relationship, building, all of those pieces that we need to
sort of operate in these big teams and in these big
organizations. So I think the first piece of it is sort of the
education component, in that it's not really taught to us,
you know, we're taught Python, and we're taught Pope
programming, and we're taught, you know, SQL and all these
other things, but we're not really taught well, what does
that mean to somebody else? You know, if I'm on the IT side, or
if I'm a developer, what does that mean to security? And I
think it's really important on the security side, to have that
understanding, and that empathy for what other teams are working
on. Because if I can't speak to a developer and understand, you
know, what they're going through, or what they need to
do, you know, what their deadlines or requirements are,
it's going to be really difficult to work together. So I
think that's part of the challenges is we don't really
have this educational component, it's, it's not a part of any
certifications that I've at least seen, you know, this sort
of emotional intelligence piece. And I've really, especially when
I was doing research for the book really came across a lot of
leadership and management books that talk about emotional
intelligence. I had a really hard time finding anything out
there, whether it was a book, or anything like that, that could
be used as a textbook or used, you know, sort of as a guide
that talks about emotional intelligence, really, for
practitioners. You know, there's there's some stuff out there,
but there really isn't a lot. And I think that that's, that's,
you know, one of the biggest challenges is we encourage our
technical people to go for certifications to go for
technical certifications, you know, that that's a great thing.
But we don't encourage them to apply empathy to what they're
doing. And so I think that's, that's probably where that that
gap came from.
Eveline Oehrlich: Here, here, here, I'm hoping that my co
partner is listening into this podcast. If not, I will point
her for that, because we have been saying that we need to
start figuring out how can we actually help our community
members to expand on their existing human skills or build
upon the ones they have? Or start working on if they don't
think they have any? I think the other thing I was just speaking
to Gallup CEO, he was talking about the engagement of
individuals in the in a job well, today has been really,
really low. But one of his points was that as we are
lacking, or as we are not developing these human skills,
work becomes less fun, not just because of its in cybersecurity,
or its insecurity or in the DevOps, or wherever. But because
it's so difficult to bridge across in, we can only talk
tech, and we could talk processes, but we really don't
have that connectability anymore. Mostly, maybe it's
gotten worse, because of the pandemic. He was saying that
they're doing a lot of work at the Gallup as well to start
assessing and developing that. So it is a great opportunity for
us. Thank you for that. All right, let's shift gears a
little bit. The clock is always ticking when we have great
conversation. So I want to switch a little bit towards the
topic of cybersecurity. And particularly, where do you think
it stands today, in terms of its priority from what you've seen?
And from who you've been visiting with? Where does it
stand in terms of priority in executives, leaders, investors
and individual contributors? Because I think there is, at
least from the research I've done, there might be a shift and
which is good. But I was curious what your thoughts are on that.
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, I would absolutely agree that
there's been a shift and I think, a shift really in the
last year. You know, I think this it all really sort of
started with solar winds. You know, that? I think because it
had so much media attention, you know, it wasn't just Oh, random
data breach here or random cyber attack here. Solar Winds
affected lots of different types of organizations, lots of
different domains, and it became a business risk. You know, it
wasn't just a cyber risk anymore or an incident It was, Oh, my
business is in trouble. And not just from a security
perspective, but a lot of the people that consumed and use
SolarWinds were IT operations groups. And so it that of not
having that tool in place, you know, having to find an
alternative or not having visibility to your systems or,
you know, the potential of an incident, and then you can, you
know, it becomes a snowball effect to the business. And I
think that was really what sort of, at least opened people's
eyes to, oh, there's, there's sort of this cascading effect
when there is an incident that sort of, I think, started to
change people's minds. And then I think blog for J was another
big one, partially because it got so much media attention, but
also because it opened people's eyes to open source software,
how do how are we actually developing? And how can we
support developers, while still making sure that we understand
the risk. So I think it was sort of an eye opener for both
developers and for security professionals to say, oh, we
need to really understand how this is going to work, and how
we can support open source software, but by you know,
understanding what that means to our risk. So I think, as far as
what those things sort of started to change people's
minds, I do think a lot more leadership boards, they're much
more interested in in having sort of cybersecurity expertise,
at least available as consultants or advisors. So I
would say there's definitely a shift in the industry as far as
leadership goes. And I think they see the benefit of
cybersecurity, not just being, you know, a security assessment,
or an audit or an inhibitor, but more of a, hey, if we work
together with the cyber team, with our developers, with our T
with our leadership, we can help provide strategic, you know, we
can help with those five year plans, we can help make sure
that five years out 10 years out that the business is healthy,
thriving and resilient, especially towards cyber
attacks. Because if if an organization isn't resilient,
let's say for example, ransomware, I think that's
another really big one that's hit organizations and the amount
of cost associated with ransomware. Plenty businesses
have shut down because they've been hit by ransomware. And it
was so costly that they couldn't recover. So I think I think
those kinds of situations have really changed how people feel
and now they're starting to seek out security advisors and not
just from a, Hey, what is our secure configuration look like?
Or how do we pass this audit? But hey, how do we, how do we
plan our strategic it and development vision with a
cybersecurity, you know, professional there to help us?
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Eveline Oehrlich: So as a summary, I would say it is fair
to say that cybersecurity is a strategic line item for all of
those particular executives and leaders.
Dr. Nikki Robinson: I guess that is my hope I
Eveline Oehrlich: Lets frame it as a hope I love that. Yes,
Dr. Nikki Robinson: I hope so. Because I think there is there's
so much positivity, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to get
into cybersecurity, because it's it's not just cybersecurity, it
really is it and a function of technology. And so I think if we
can start to change that idea of, you know, I joke with
people, you know, I'm a security architect, but I really joke,
I'm really just an infrastructure architect. It's
security is, you know, security by design. But really what I'm
doing is helping to build environments that are secure.
And, and that's still in it a component of it. So I think, I
think it's starting to change. But yes, it's a lot of hope
there.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yep. You know, this is, this reminds me of
philosophical discussion we have had when I was at Forrester,
where we had a security and risk team and an infrastructure and
operations team. And of course, you know, enterprise architects,
application developers, CIOs. And I remember the folks from
the security and risk team, not wanting to do at the time, this
is 2018 When I left but at that time, they were doing their own
research. Of course, we always wanted to collaborate because
infrastructure and operations we have to have our heads out and
get stuck sometimes was in, in the nasty fixing the mess. And
we always had the conversation and and said, why do you why are
you in a separate group? Why are we not bringing us together into
a research? team so we can do things together? I don't think
that has happened. But But I think having the risk, sometimes
it takes, it just takes challenges which are so
overwhelming that people are enough pain that people are
changing. And I think one of the other factors and I'm curious
what your thoughts or is there a metric which executives should
have relative to that? I think it's some companies, a CEO
already has the resilience and sustainability. We're seeing ESG
as a topic come up quite a bit. But in your, in your mind,
should there be metrics for all of those folks around this
topic? Because it impacts like you said the business
significantly?
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yes, absolutely. There's definitely
been a big push in the last two, three, maybe four years for
quantifying cyber risk, you know, really making it much
easier, I think, to digest, because it's interesting, I
think, when people talk about qualitative versus quantitative,
but this idea that if we can help quantify some of that risk,
make it easier to digest and help to, to help to show what
we're talking about, tell that story a little bit better. And
metrics, I think, when it comes to, you know, here's my, here's
my bias here, because I love vulnerability management, but,
you know, anything highly exploitable vulnerabilities, if
I'm using threat intelligence, what do I need to be concerned?
What are the top three concerns that I have? You know, so I
think breaking it down into smaller chunks. And, you know,
my, the bane of my existence are like 300 Page vulnerability
reports. And I think that's, you know, one of those big
challenges is don't send those 300 page, you know,
vulnerability reports. Let's let's break this down into
metrics that makes sense for leadership. That's, it's, it's
absolutely imperative, I think, to not just the cybersecurity
mission, but to the business mission, you know, to help break
those things down and make it easier to digest.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yep, absolutely. All right. Now, I
came across a fantastic short piece by Stefan Napo, who is the
VP cybersecurity director and global CFO, I group, SCB, that's
a French company, that doing a lot of small appliances, and
it's actually the world's largest manufacturer of
cookware, and I'm a cook so I love their products, but not
talking about the cookware but really talking about what Stefan
said he talked about the swarm cybersecurity or swarm
cybersecurity. And, of course, in DevOps and development, we
talk about swarming. Have you heard this term? I'm sure you
have any? If you haven't, and let's move on. But I am sure you
have your thoughts on that. Tell me tell me what you think when
that comes to your mind when I say swarm or cybersecurity.
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, so for, for me, swarming. I also
think about in a very it context, because, you know,
typically you have this tiered model, and that's sort of an
older model right of it. But if you let's say you have your
helpdesk, and then your systems administrators, and then your
senior sis admins or maybe engineering above that, but
instead of having these sort of siloed, tears, you have this
giving this power to, you know, in IT systems administrator that
can sort of help to resolve these things without taking up
the chain, because, you know, you don't learn anything that
way. So it's this more collaborative effort of, hey, I
think I know how to fix this, I'm going to do this. And then
if they need help, they can always ask for help, and the
team can work together, but it becomes more of this group
effort, instead of you know, hey, I've got this thing, I'm
gonna pass it to you, they'll pass the ticket to you, and then
to you and then to you. So instead of this becoming this
endless chain of, you know, what happened to my issue, you know,
becomes this more of a collaborative and teamwork type
effort. And so applying that to cybersecurity, I think about the
cyber color wheel, if you're familiar with that, this idea of
you know, you have red teams and blue teams, and then you start
talking about threat intel, and you have yellow teams and orange
teams and purple teams that are red and blue teams combined into
purple teams. And so you're building this more of a
collaborative effort, instead of saying, you know, I'm on the red
team, and I have a pen test. And I'm going to lob it over to the
blue team. And they're just going to have to figure it out
and becomes a collaborative effort. And the blue team can go
back to the red team and say, Hey, actually, we found these
additional things. Can you verify that for us? Can you
check to make sure that this is fixed? And so it becomes this
more of an open type of team instead of you know, just the
silos? Well, I'm on the red team, or I'm on the blue team.
Yep. You know, it's much more collaborative. And so I think
that's 100% the way forward there's a fantastic Stick. She's
on LinkedIn. Her name is marrow Vernon, she talks a lot about
purple teaming. And when I came across her and some of the
things that she's written about purple teaming, that's really
what started getting me thinking about swarming. Right. It's it's
a similar notion, right of collaboration and bringing
people together. But I think it's a big benefit to teams,
because one, it empowers your employee or your cyber
professional, or your developer. But it also improves their
skills. It allows them to learn something new, it improves
teamwork. And I think there's a big reduction in how long it
takes to identify and resolve specifically, you know, in a Red
Team Blue Team context, versus Hey, I have this 200 Page pen
test report, here you go, go ahead and figure it out, you
know, it becomes more of this, like, hey, we found this
vulnerability across 100 systems, can you guys work on
this, and we can see if we can get this fixed, and then we can
come back and retest. So So for me, it's all about
collaboration,
Eveline Oehrlich: super, we, I that reminded me of something I
did with again, a former colleague of mine, where we
looked at MTTR. And we found that not necessarily to
security, but we found that the largest amount of time, I think
it was 70% of time was found in the meantime to detect. And and
that was because everybody was looking down their own their own
pipe, right and their own data. So I think that's an additional
benefit, in terms of Meantime, detect at the pre at the
predecessor of swarming, but as you said, MTTR overall, because
we are bringing people together is an incredible impact has an
incredible impact reducing that. And that, again, reduces
business impact. So super. All right, let's shift a little bit,
we have about five minutes or so I want to cover two topics, one
the skill, and then I want to really get into your thinking on
the women in it, or women in tech. So the first one, let's
say I want to be successful in cybersecurity. And actually, I
did lose an analyst in my former role to the security and risk
team. And I was very sad loser, but she is a great analyst in
this space. But if I wanted to go into cybersecurity, and maybe
there's a focus on here who are wanting to switch, what do you
think are the necessary skill, maybe one or two to be
successful? Besides what we already talked about in terms
of, Hey, you gotta be having empathy. And so EQ, but what
else do you think are essential?
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, I would say a lot of the skills
that I brought with me from it to cybersecurity, and you don't
have to have an IT background, to necessarily go into
cybersecurity, but I can say for me, it helped a lot. Because I
understand technology very well. Now, I would say troubleshooting
is a really, really big skill. And that's, you know,
troubleshooting, problem solving, being able to sort of
understand enough that you can figure out what's going on,
because that's, that's one of the big, big parts of
cybersecurity is typically you're handed, you know, a piece
of information, and you've got to go digging, and try to figure
out what's going on. And so I think that problems, problem
solving, troubleshooting, and natural curiosity, all three of
those sort of go hand in hand together this sort of, okay, let
me dig and try to figure out what this is. So I would say
that's the first and I know I said, three skills really, and
one that was sort of I was trying, it's kind of a cop out.
But that's sort of that. That's sort of how I would describe
that right problem solving as that big component there. I
would say the other really important skill, you know,
besides sort of that relationship building, and what
we call soft skills, would really be how, how do what was I
gonna say, how do how do we understand data. So data science
is a really important component of cybersecurity. And I've met a
lot of really great data scientists that have crossed
into cybersecurity and they are a huge asset, because they're
able to parse through all of this information that we've been
collecting in security with our sims for years and years and
years. And now we have data scientists to really help us.
One make that pipeline of data, easier to digest, easier to
bring in. But they also help us pull out the really important
information. They're helping us to leverage AI, machine learning
models and different techniques that we may not have had the
skills I say we, I may not have had the skills in before in data
science, but that's something in the last two years, I've learned
how important it is to sort of have those data science
principles in cybersecurity. So I would say you don't have to
know Python or machine learning in any sort of depth. But having
some of that understanding is really important. Can I give
three skills? Can I give one more? Of course you can. Okay,
one more I would say you know, since we're talking about
DevOps, right is the ability to communicate and work really well
with developers to be able to speak the language, if you have
some programming background, it's super helpful. Again, you
don't have to be a developer, but to be able to understand
enough that you can talk to a developer, when they're saying,
Hey, we have this requirement, we have to do this this way.
Let's figure out a new solution. So I think that sort of being
able to speak the language is really important.
Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent. Fantastic. All right, our last
question, and then I have a fun question for you. But this one
is around women and technology, both of us have been in
technology, I have my own challenges. But this is not
about me. This is about you. What would you would love to
hear? What was the biggest challenge for you you faced? And
of course, how did you overcome it? If you're willing to share?
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Absolutely, yeah, I would say the biggest
challenge I had, it was funny getting into it. You know,
starting on helpdesk, and sort of working my way up, I
actually, I had some really great mentors along the way, and
sort of, you know, working my way up in it. I think the
biggest challenge I honestly had was when I wanted to break into
cybersecurity, and I got so much pushback from my it friends on,
you know, why would you want to go into Security, you're never
going to be able to come back to it or, you know, you're just
going to be in security. And it was such, it was such an
interesting, I guess, sort of perspective that I had this sort
of, you know, you're not going to succeed in security, and
you're never going to be able to come back, you're you can never
cross the lines again, you know, it was this, like making it sort
of this like, well, you can't do both sort of a thing. That was a
big challenge, because I had to essentially go back and say,
Well, I can do this. And what I found was going on the
cybersecurity side, I actually am far more technical than I was
before I understand way more operating systems, I understand
development way better than I used to. And so I guess sort of
pushing through that barrier of a lot of people saying no, like,
No, you can't do this, No, you aren't going to be good at this.
No, you don't have the skill to do this. And really being given
a chance to show that I do that that was sort of tough that it
took me a couple of years to make that transition from it to
cybersecurity. And, you know, I had one very great mentor of
mine, Philip Culp, who gave me my first shot. And so, you know,
and then I was able to sort of go from there. But so I would
say that was the biggest challenge. But the biggest thing
that helped me was finding a great mentor and someone who was
willing to take a chance on me and for me to you know, show
them my skill. But yeah, that was that was pretty tough.
Eveline Oehrlich: Wow. Fantastic. Well, thanks to your
mentor for supporting you, and thanks to you for sticking it
through. That's quite impressive. So I have one more
question. I know you are very busy, and you do a lot of
things, but you must have some fun. What do you do for fun?
Dr. Nikki Robinson: Oh, yeah, I'd love this question. Yeah, I
actually, I I'm very big into fitness. Like I love all things,
outdoor activities, hiking and biking and running. So I love
I'm actually signed up for a couple triathlons. So I love
running and biking and swimming. And, and that's what I do for
fun.
Eveline Oehrlich: Wow. Wow, this has been a great conversation.
You and I could go on. I would love to stay connected. I think
there are some things maybe we want to do together.
Dr. Nikki Robinson: That would be great.
Eveline Oehrlich: Thank you so much for being on our podcast. I
really appreciate it. You are a wonderful, wonderful individual.
So thanks again. We have been talking to Dr. Nikki Robinson,
security architect, adjunct professor, volunteer and book
author, and many many other things again, Dr. Robinson or
Nikki, thank you so much for joining me today on Humans of
DevOps Podcast. For those who are listening. Yes. And for
those listening in make sure you check out the book Mind to Tech
Gap Addressing the Conflicts Between IT and Security Teams.
It is on my list order. I actually already pushed a button
on my Amazon. So this is great. Humans of DevOps podcast is
produced by DevOps Institute. Our audio production team
includes my good friend Julia, Pap, and our hardworking Brendan
Lay, thank you to both of those. I'm humans of DevOps podcast
executive producer Eveline Oehrlich. If you would like to
join us on a podcast, please contact us at this is a very
long name, but I'll read it out Humans of DevOps Podcast at
DevOpsInstitute.com. I'm Eveline Oehrlich, I'll talk to you soon.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Humans of
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