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JAMES GRASBY: Hello and welcome
to this special episode of the

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National Trust Podcast. I'm
James Grasby, building and

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landscape curator for the
National Trust.

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And today, I'll be heading to
Derbyshire to find out more

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about Sudbury Hall, the historic
home of the Vernon family. But

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as I will soon discover, this
property has a rather unusual

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way of connecting with its
visitors.

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It's a chilly spring day in
February and I'm standing in

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front of a beautiful and rather
grand red brick, Jacobean style,

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mansion. This fabulous property,
the National Trust never

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disappoints, is set within these
beautiful, extensive gardens.

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But it's really what's inside
the property that excites me as

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it houses some of the finest
examples of plaster work and

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mural painting and wonderful
woodcarving by an A-list of

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celebrity craftsmen. And I can't
wait to get my foot through the

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door.

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MAHNOOR: Hey James! Wait! Wait
for me!

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JAMES GRASBY: I should say a
young girl is running towards

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me. Yes. Can I help you?

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MAHNOOR: I hope I'm not too
late. But my name is Mahnoor and

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I've been sent here to help
Co-Present this podcast.

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JAMES GRASBY: Gosh, I wasn't
expecting a co-presenter.

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Delighted to meet you, but
forgive me. You're a young girl.

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What do you know about Sudbury
Hall?

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MAHNOOR: I may be only 12 years
old, but quite a lot as it

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happens.

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JAMES GRASBY: Really?

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MAHNOOR: Yes. Lots of kids from
the local area, including me and

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my brother Idris, have been
working alongside the staff and

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creators to help give Sudbury
Hall a bit of a glow up.

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JAMES GRASBY: A bit of a glow
up?

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MAHNOOR: A makeover! A brand new
look!

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During the last few years while
Sudbury Hall has been closed to

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the public it’s undergone a huge
transformation and it's now the

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UK's first ever children's
country house.

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And it was this time last year,
in February 2022, when all us

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kids were invited back to
Sudbury Hall to see it all

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finished.

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JAMES GRASBY: Mahnoor, I'm
getting the picture.

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MAHNOOR: Let's time travel back
and find out how Sudbury Hall is

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transformed through time.

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NIKKI WALTERS: Hello,
everybody. [Crowd shouts hello]

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You guys have been amazing,
helping us to test things.

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Helping us to design things.
Should we give ourselves a

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massive round of applause for
that?!

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JAMES GRASBY: What's happening
here?

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MAHNOOR: It's the day I was
telling you about, the very

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final trial and testing day for
Sudbury Hall before it opens to

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the public again.

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That's the general manager Nikki
Walters and those as the

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Children's Country House
ambassadors. And they're about

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find out what all their hard
work looks like.

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NIKKI WALTERS: And the most
exciting thing about today that

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makes a difference, the last
time you might have come is that

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we've got the museum open and
we've got the gardens open and

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we've got the hall open and
we've got the activity hub open.

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It's the first time we've got
lots and lots of different

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things for you to see and do.
Most important thing is just

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have a massive amount of fun!
Can you do that? [Cheers]

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Amazing!

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MAHNOOR: And the best thing
about the Children's Country

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House is that it's a place that
has been inspired by children

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and designed by children and
turned into a property that can

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be enjoyed by visitors of all
ages.

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JAMES GRASBY: You realise, of
course Mahnoor, that this isn't

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the first time that Sudbury Hall
estate has been reinvented.

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MAHNOOR: Really?

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JAMES GRASBY: Yes. You need to
go back in time to 1660...

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When King Charles II had been
restored to the throne after the

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Civil War, when a young man,
George Vernon, had just

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inherited the Sudbury estate. He
was rich, had plenty of ambition

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and design ideas. But what he
didn't have was titles.

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EDITH PARKINSON: George Vernon
built Sudbury Hall right on the

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road so people could see that he
had money and he could then make

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strategic marriages and then get
those titles that he so

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desperately wanted.

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My name's Edith Parkinson and I
am a senior collections and

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house officer at the Children's
Country House at Sudbury.

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So the hall was built during the
restoration of the monarchy. So

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we call it a restoration
mansion.

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But the way George Vernon built
it was to emulate older houses.

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It has a long gallery which was
starting to go out of fashion

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and has a lot of features that
sort of older houses would have

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had rather than leaning into
some of the newer trends.

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There are lots of features on
the outside of the building that

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hint at George Vernon's wealth,
one of which being the amount of

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windows.

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So not only does this create
symmetry in the hall, but it

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also shows how wealthy he was as
glass was quite an expensive

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commodity at the time.

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As George Vernon's ambition
grew, he started contacting

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London craftsmen. The
woodcarver, Edward Pearce, who

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did the Fantastic Staircase.
Even the hall was mostly

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complete. George still felt
there were finishing touches to

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be made and commissioned Louis
Léger to add painted murals to

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the staircase in the hall.

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JAMES GRASBY: The very same
Léger who painted those

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wonderful murals in the grand
hallway at Petworth. They are a

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sight to behold, a wall of gods
and goddesses, heroes and

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villains.

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MAHNOOR: That sounds amazing,
James, but let's get back to the

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story. What happened next?

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EDITH PARKINSON: So for about
200 years, Sudbury Hall remained

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unchanged. But with the fashions
of the Victorian era and the

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changing way that the upper
classes were living, it was

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decided that a new service was
needed. The Vernons brought in

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architect George Denby in 1876
to build on what we now know is

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the Museum of Childhood.

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MAHNOOR: Me and my brother loved
the museum, especially climbing

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up the chimney where it's dark
and only lit by a few lights,

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then sliding down the slide to
get to the other end.

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JAMES GRASBY: A chimney?

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MAHNOOR: Yes, and lots of other
brilliant exhibits too! Both the

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museums and gardens were a huge
hit with everyone. But it seems

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that very few families were that
keen to spend time looking

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around the historic hall itself.

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GENERIC: A lot of the little
ones before, when they came

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through with their parents,
would just be ready to go.

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With younger children. We tended
not to, they just scream all the

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way around and grab hold of
things.

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I would say I find it a bit
boring because there's not much

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interactive stuff.

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JAMES GRASBY: Oh, those families
have missed out on experiencing

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Sudbury Hall's wonderful
interiors. What a tragedy!

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MAHNOOR: They just weren't
displayed in a way that made

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them relevant to us kids. They
were either closed off behind

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ropes or hung from a wall at a
height that was difficult for us

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to see.

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JAMES GRASBY: So we've got a
property with a fascinating

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history, renowned for its 17th
century craftsmanship and looked

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after by the National Trust. But
it's not getting quite so much

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love from visitors as it should
do.

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MAHNOOR: Exactly. So fast
forward to 2019, and this is

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when the child ambassadors like
me come in. Here’s general

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manager, Jodie Lees, talking
about how the grown up staff at

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Sudbury came up with a wild
idea.

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JODIE LEES: Sudbury is a much
loved place and it always has

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been, but actually it wasn't a
unified experience.

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Back in 2019, I joined the team
to start developing what the

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Children's Country House could
be, should be. So we developed

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the ambassador programme where
we worked with over a hundred

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children, community groups and
schools over a two year period.

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We recruited them in lots of
different ways. We did lots of

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shout outs on social media. We
got in touch with local

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communities. We went on TV and
did a little bit of a shout out

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as well.

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GENERIC: I'm Lexi and I'm 11.
Jodie asked me to make a

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PowerPoint asking people to come
join and be the ambassadors. I

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put a lot of things to do, like
drawing, dancing, baking.

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I am Poppy, I am aged nine. My
mum saw something on Facebook

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and told about me and asked if I
wanted to do it and I said yes

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and I was really excited.

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JAMES GRASBY: How did you become
involved Mahnoor?

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MAHNOOR: Well, it was my mum and
she said to me, oh there’s an

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opening at Sudbury Hall for
being an ambassador and me and

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my brother said, "Oh yeah, why
don't we give it a try?" And I'm

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so glad we took the opportunity.

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JODIE LEES: The ambassadors
worked with us in lots of

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different ways. We had poetry
parties. We had activities with

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artists on site. We sent out
packs for them to design things

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in the garden.

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One of my favourite parts of the
project is our trialling and

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testing days; where we worked
with the ambassadors to create

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them as almost as mini
inspectors, so they would come

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on site at certain points in the
project and feedback on ideas,

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or they would help us develop
and debate certain things.

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GENERIC: We got to see the
boathouse and the den and all

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the new bits they added to the
garden, and my sister wrote a

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label and her label is actually
in the gallery right now. It's

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about a doll whose owner said he
would never be loved, so they

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never put her out.

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JODIE LEES: So for our first
session for ambassadors, we did

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an online welcome party. It was
during the pandemic.

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And one of the ambassadors,
believe it or not, had a little

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brother that was born the day
before the welcome party. So we

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like to say that one of our
ambassadors started when he was

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one day old. Baby Jamie, he's
called.

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He's now two and a half. And I
see him on Fridays come in and

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tottering around.

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JAMES GRASBY: You can never be
too young to start learning

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about heritage.

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MAHNOOR: Ah, James, does that
mean you're coming round to the

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idea of a children's country
house?

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JAMES GRASBY: I think so. But
I'm wondering, do children

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understand the history and
heritage more than they did

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before all the changes?

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MAHNOOR: I know just the person
who'll be able to answer that

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question for you.

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ED HARKER: Children learn best
when they're engaged in their

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learning and when they see a
connection between what they're

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learning in their own lives.

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And one of the key challenges
for educators is to find what

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are those connections and how do
you make learning as engaging as

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possible.

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I'm Ed harker, I've been working
in primary education for about

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30 years as a reception nursery
teacher and as a head teacher,

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and now I do curriculum
development and behaviour

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support for schools.

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Education at it’s best isn’t a
process of handing stuff over to

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children. It's actually drawing
out a ducere.

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So it's drawing out from the
children. The best thing you can

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draw out is good questions and a
questioning mind will take

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children through their life.

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The learning shouldn't stop at
the end of the school day. It

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shouldn't stop during summer
holidays and it shouldn't stop

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when they leave school.

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You want people to have an open
questioning, problem solving

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mind and that comes from giving
them experiences which are both

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relevant but also slightly
intriguing.

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I remember going to lots of
National Trust houses as a

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child. A lot of it was quite
passive for a child.

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Out of reach, hard to
contextualise when you literally

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couldn't touch the stuff. So the
idea of democratising these

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amazing buildings makes perfect
sense.

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And I think for some children to
experience the sheer, wealth,

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scale and quality of some of
these places, it's like visiting

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a cathedral.

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It's a sense of awe. They're
really good places for opening

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up questions and provoking
questions about privilege,

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access, who made these things?
Why are they living in such a

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big house? And they also elicit
creative responses that work

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really well.

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I think children have
interesting reactions to some of

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the more formal portraits and
stuff like that, and I think

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moving beyond just having a
couple of dress ups or a small

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handling collection is great.
And to have the sense that the

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children can be exploring it on
their own terms is very

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powerful.

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MAHNOOR: You see, James, the
Children's Country House is so

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much more to offer than a dress
up box.

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JAMES GRASBY: I can see that.
But I still have one more

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question that needs answering.

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As a curator myself, I'm a
little concerned that allowing

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children unrestricted access to
the collection could put it at

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risk of being damaged.

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MAHNOOR: I can see why you might
be a little worried, but curator

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Lucy Armstrong-Blair will put
your mind at rest.

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LUCY ARMSTRONG-BLAIR: We chose
Sudbury because it's a place

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that was brought to the trust
because of it's architectural

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features. Not necessarily
because of its collection or

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that that has come into the
house over time.

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There are things on open
display. There are some things

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that are really precious we've
put behind Perspex.

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There are rooms completely open
to people wandering through.

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We've kind of enticed people
away from the walls and actually

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kind of put the experiences in
the centre of the room.

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So all the doing stuff is in the
centre.

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I want to have this place for
children to start to learn about

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country houses and to love them
because there's so many lovely,

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wonderful, amazing things in
them. And then hopefully to

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carry that love and interest
into the other National Trust

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houses.

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JAMES GRASBY: I'm rather
intrigued to hear what the

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finished hall look like.

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MAHNOOR: Hold on, James. Here's
a sneak peek with Lauren Brewer

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at the very last trialling and
testing day back in February

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2022, just before all us
ambassadors arrived.

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LAUREN BREWER: The time is now
9:54am, and the kids are going

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to be starting to arrive in
about 10 minutes.

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A little frantic, but excitable,
I would say.

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This room we call the portal,
once people arrive, they'll be

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taken into here for a welcome.

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On the ceiling you've got this
lovely oval shape. There's

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actually a projection with some
of the country house ambassadors

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featuring in it. The idea of
this seating here is that

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children can lounge and really
enjoy the projection up above.

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So we would expect children to
be slobbing about that is okay

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by us.

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Part of being closed meant that
we could do a load of

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conservation work on the stairs.

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Now people can go up and enjoy
all of the plasterwork and the

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woodwork and the painting.

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So we're going to go up the
great stairs moving through into

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the long gallery. One of the
spaces that we're most famous

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for. It's a very long, long
hall.

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People would have used it maybe
on a rainy day, get their

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exercise, so stroll up and down,
maybe dance, maybe play some

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games.

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But what we have done in here is
bring some of the portraits to

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life by putting some speech
bubbles underneath. For example,

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you've got here, "It's hard
being King Charles II favourite

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girlfriend, but somebody has to
do it!"

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Just leaving the house to go
round to the yard.

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Lots of families raring to go.
The sun is out. Thankfully we

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can meet and greet them outside
today the weather's good.

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Everybody ready for a fun day!

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JAMES GRASBY: And you were there
waiting with all the other

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ambassadors?

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MAHNOOR: Yes, we were all so
excited. And then we all

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followed Lauren into the portal.

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LAUREN BREWER: Welcome,
everyone, to the world's first

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children's country house... It’s
a country house for you and the

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grown-ups, too, but mainly for
you guys.

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MAHNOOR: It was at this point,
we all looked up at the ceiling

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and then we saw ourselves in the
projection waving back down to

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us.

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It was magical. And then the day
began.

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LAUREN BREWER: So have an
amazing day. And the Hall of

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Wonder now awaits you... [Sounds
of children playing]

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GENERIC: My name's Ana and I'm
here with my mum, my son, Oscar,

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and my ten month old Jamie. We
love Sudbury Hall here. We love

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exploring things. We love
finding out about things. Now

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they've turned this a little bit
more inclusive. It definitely

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would be a place that I would
bring him.

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I’m called Poppy, i’m nine years
old. There's a lot more children

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friendly stuff that can be
touched and played with and it

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doesn't feel like there's ropes
everywhere.

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I'm Elenor and I'm eight. When
we first came, there was only a

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few interactive stuff, and now
there's way more stuff that

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children can do while they're
here.

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My name’s Heston, i’m eight and
I think it's really good.

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There's loads for them to do.
You can see how excited they are

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and they want to be here and if
they're happy, we're happy.

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I am really looking forward to
coming back.

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JAMES GRASBY: Am I right in
saying that eight months later

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in October 2022 the children's
country house opened to the

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public?

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MAHNOOR: Yeah, that's right.

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JAMES GRASBY: And how do you
think it's been received?

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MAHNOOR: Well, me and my family
love coming here, but Jodie, the

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general manager, may be able to
tell you more.

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JODIE LEES: It's been an amazing
experience for everyone

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involved. And there's nothing
that beats those moments where

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you're standing in the stable
yard and you can just see over

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700 people have an amazing day
out.

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And we're really looking forward
to you doing more. I won't give

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you too much of a spoiler alert,
but we are definitely planning

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on opening more spaces and more
zones. So watch this space!

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JAMES GRASBY: Oh, another space.
What do you think's going to be

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in there then? How about a giant
Lego Sudbury?

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MAHNOOR: They have one of those
already James!

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JAMES GRASBY: Do they?

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I wonder if they managed to get
all the windows in correctly.

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MAHNOOR: Come on, James, let's
go and have a look at it.

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JAMES GRASBY: Oh good. I want to
see all of it. I want to see all

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00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:08,030
of it again!

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MAHNOOR: It's going to be so
fun!

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JAMES GRASBY: And what about the
Grand staircase?

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Oh, that's amazing!

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Thanks for listening to this
episode of the National Trust

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00:18:27,089 --> 00:18:30,069
Podcast. If you would like to
experience the Children's

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00:18:30,079 --> 00:18:33,319
Country House at Sudbury
yourself, it's now open every

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00:18:33,329 --> 00:18:35,270
weekend and most school
holidays.

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So please head to the National
Trust website or search online

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00:18:38,989 --> 00:18:41,739
for Sudbury Hall, where you can
follow the link to book a

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00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:45,020
visitor's slot or head to this
episode's show notes.

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00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,369
If you've enjoyed this episode,
please follow National Trust

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00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:52,920
Podcast on Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, Google podcasts, or

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00:18:52,930 --> 00:18:55,810
whatever podcast app you use. Or
find us at

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00:18:55,819 --> 00:19:02,939
nationaltrust.org.uk/podcasts
from me, James Grasby-

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00:19:03,439 --> 00:19:04,980
MAHNOOR: And me, Mahnoor. [

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00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:05,640
Both] Goodbye.