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Intro: Hi, I'm Ed Slott.

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And I'm Jeff Levine.

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And we are two guys who just love
to talk about retirement and taxes.

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Look, our mission is simple to educate
you, the savers, so that you can make

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better decisions because better decisions
on the hall lead to better outcomes.

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And here's how we're going to do that.

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Each week, Jeff and I will debate
the pros and the cons of a particular

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retirement strategy or topic with the.

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Helping you keep more of
your hard-earned money.

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Yeah, but we won't know which side of
the debate we're taking until we flip

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a coin winner of the coin flip gets to
pick which side of the debate they want

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to argue, and both of us will have to
argue in favor of our respect positions,

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whether we agree with them or not.

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At the end of each debate, there's
going to be one clear winner you, a more

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informed saver who can hopefully apply
the merits of each side of the debate

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to your own personal situation to decide
what's best for you and your family.

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So here we go.

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Welcome to the Great Retirement Debate.

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Jeffrey Levine: All right, welcome
back to the Great Retirement Debate.

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Ed.

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How's it going today?

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Ed Slott: Pretty good.

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We're down to the end now.

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Uh, this is our 19th episode coming up.

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Jeffrey Levine: That's right.

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And the last of season one.

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So this is gonna be, uh,
a special episode for us.

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This is our last episode for season one
and, uh, a little bit of a different

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format today, instead of our typical
debate, we're gonna kinda look back at,

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uh, some of the discussions we've had.

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And Ed, you know, we, we've covered a
lot of ground this, uh, this season.

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A lot of different topics.

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Ed Slott: Well, I'm looking at the list.

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I have it in front of me and I'm
amazed how many questions, you

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know, it's based on listeners.

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We we're out in the field a lot.

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We hear a lot of these
questions people have, should

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I do this or should I do that?

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And that's the point of this debate
to give you both sides of the pros

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and cons and benefits and drawbacks.

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And we did cover a lot of ground, but the
big items that people are asking about.

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Jeffrey Levine: So lot of big
items as you just mentioned.

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Let me ask you, looking back at,
at, at the first season, what,

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what was your favorite debate?

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Like, which one, like, which one sticks
out in your mind as perhaps the one

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where, whether you just had the most
fun discussing it or whether it was

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a surprise as we went through it?

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You know, what, what, what,
which one was your favorite?

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Ed Slott: Well, I have to pick two.

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Our recap of Secure 2.0 deal or
no deal, part one and part two.

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Those are the two.

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That was a, a shift, a lot of new
provisions, but as we found out, there

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was nothing earth shattering there.

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It wasn't transformative.

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It wasn't groundbreaking like the original
secure Act was, but there was still so

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many provisions, so many little ones.

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I think there were over 90 retirement
provisions and secure 2.0 a little

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something for everybody and a lot of
little things that you have to know.

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And it took us two episodes to go
through it and some people are still

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surprised of what's in Secure 2.0.

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Jeffrey Levine: Yeah, we probably
could have done four or five

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episodes to cover every provision
as, uh, as we look back at that one.

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You know, that was one where we had 90
plus provisions in a, in a bill, and

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boy, you know, if you like secure Act
one, the original that was roughly a

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dozen, there was a lot more to look at.

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As you said, maybe not anything as
impactful as perhaps the death of the

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stretch was in the original secure act.

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But lots of things with more modest
impacts still add up to potentially

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very important things to know.

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I gotta say on on my end, maybe a
little bit of, um, you know, nostalgia,

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looking back to episode one, but I
really enjoyed our debate about should

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I take social security or use my ira?

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And that, you know, that just continues
to be a question I hear all the time.

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Uh, there continues to
be new research in fact.

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Uh, just in this last January, Ed,
in January of 2023, I don't know

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if you saw, but there was a, uh, a
really interesting article in the

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Journal of Financial Planning by, uh,
Steve Parrish and Wade Pfau, uh, two,

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you know, retirement, uh, experts.

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Ed Slott: I know them both
from the American College.

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Jeffrey Levine: That's right.

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That's, that's exactly right.

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Two professors from the American College
and, you know, they, they look at not just

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the insurance value of social security,
which we often talk about, but they went

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a step further and said, um, if we're
just concerned about leaving more money

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to your heirs, what does that look like?

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And you know, we, we could spend
a lot of time just covering

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this, but we, we already did.

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Uh, but, but there are new research
basically showed that even if

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we're just talking about I want
to leave the greatest legacy, like

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what, what leaves me at death?

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Forget about the insurance element
of social security and delaying,

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but just the idea of can I, do I get
more money when I die on average?

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They actually found that you would have to
have a particularly aggressive allocation

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in throughout your kind of retirement
and have good fortune of the markets in

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order for, uh, using, uh, in, in order for
using your own money not to work out well.

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Right?

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So in other words, delaying social
security still really comes out to be

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a winner for many, many individuals and
there's just more research about that.

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It continues to be the single most asked
question of any that I think we had.

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Maybe along with should I use
the trust as a beneficiary.

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Ed Slott: Yeah.

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I was surprised at that one.

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Back on the social security, that's
something we can do all the time because

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so many people have different types
of questions and the demographics are

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there where you have the baby boomers
moving in, into social security area.

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So, uh, the demographic is just tens
of thousands of people, uh, applying

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and starting to collect or making a
decision on when, when to begin each day.

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So that's always going to be a big issue,
especially like you said, if they have

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other assets, IRAs, which to use, where
to invest, but the trust is beneficiary.

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That was actually our second
episode and one of the most

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popular, and that surprised me.

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And maybe because people, a lot of
people had these trusts that seemed

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to work before the Secure Act.

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The original Secure Act and the Secure Act
really put the kibosh on a lot of these

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trusts with the 10 year rule in higher
taxes for the post death protection.

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So I think, uh, people got
a lot out of that episode.

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Jeffrey Levine: So I, I got another
question for you, ed, like, was, was

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there a particular episode where,
where you really felt that one of

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us had the short end of the stick?

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You know, like...

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Ed Slott: Oh, yeah.

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Uh, you did.

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I, I'm trying to, I'm
looking at the, the list.

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Uh, I, I can't remember.

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Jeffrey Levine: Well,
I'll, I'll give you one.

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I mean, one of us had to argue
in favor of 72 T payments.

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Ed Slott: Oh yeah, right.

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Yeah.

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That, no, I think it was Roth related,
where I had a sweet, or one of us had

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a sweet deal because I think we're both
Roth IRA fans because we like the idea

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of, uh, having, uh, locking in tax free,
uh, savings and income in retirement.

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So it's hard to argue against
that, but it's not, but that's

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the point of this program.

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It's not for the, the answer
is not the same for everybody.

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Everybody has their own customized
facts and circumstances and

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family and financial situations.

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So I'm glad we give both sides even
a side that we're both on, because we

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both kind of like Roths, but for some
people it's, it's not for everybody.

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Jeffrey Levine: All right.

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So I, I, I got, I got, I'm gonna rapid
fire here and I got another one for you.

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Did, did you change your mind about
anything after having one of our debates?

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Ed Slott: I'm looking through
the, uh, through the list here.

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Uh, I, I'm trying to think.

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I don't, I don't see.

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Uh, I don't see anything where,
you know, I felt we gave, uh,

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good sides on both of them.

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And it's not a question
of changing my mind.

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I think we gave both sides
of the argument, uh, whatever

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the, whatever the debate was.

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We, we gave, like I said, the
pros and cons on each one.

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So I think those were all good.

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And, and when we talk about these
things, you can go by episode and

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look at the ones we're talking about.

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They're all numbered, they're all on
there for you to, uh, listen to, and

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it might pay to listen to them again.

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Especially things you don't hear a lot
about, like gifting versus inheriting.

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That was a good one.

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Most people don't realize the
difference between the two or one

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that was uh, kind of interesting.

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A Roth IRA versus Roth 401k.

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A little confusing.

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And I think we got good points out
on that because especially with

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Roth, uh, 401k starting in 2024,
not having RMDs for Lifetime.

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That's a big change that may change some
people's minds or keeping, uh, Roth 401K

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dollars in the plan and instead of rolling
'em out to a Roth IRA, I think it's

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important to understand the difference
because there were many differences

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between having your own Roth IRA or
keeping the Roth 401k in, in the plan.

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Or downsizing my home in retirement.

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Uh, we, we had a debate on that.

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I think that was one where I
said, I don't remember which side.

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Jeffrey Levine: I, I, I took the, I took
the side of, no, don't, don't, don't

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take, don't downsize in retirement.

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Enjoy it with your kids
and your grandkids.

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That was my argument.

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Yeah.

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Ed Slott: Right.

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And I said, well, it's good to simplify
and things, but I like being in my home.

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You know, like my father, he
stayed in the home until he died.

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And then the minute he died, my mother
went out, sold the home and got an

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apartment like she always wanted.

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. 
Jeffrey Levine: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I actually really enjoyed that one too.

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I think of all the discussions we had,
that was one that really stuck out to me

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as, as one of the most earnest because we
were both drawing from things, you know,

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in, in our actual lives that you know,
that, that, that lead us to a certain way.

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You know, again, you thinking about
the simplicity of the situation, but

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enjoying your house and me, you know,
having just finished building a house.

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You know, the, uh, the idea
of just envisioning, you know,

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generations in that house to come.

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Uh, maybe my kids won't want that,
but you know, I hope to make that

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the place where we all come visit.

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And I, I thought that was a great
discussion and the type of discussion

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that is so good to have with, you know, an
independent person there, whether that's

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your tax advisor, your financial advisor,
uh, or in some cases just a good friend.

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You know, sometimes you, you, you
have blind spots and a good financial

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professional can help you uncover those.

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But, but just even talking through
it, you begin to understand what your,

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what your true values are in life
and, and that today is what a great

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financial advisor can do for you, not
just the numbers and the dollars and

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the cents and knowing the tax rules.

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Tho those are, I, I hate to say almost
table stakes because it, it's a lot.

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You have to invest a lot of time and
knowledge to, to build up that, that

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reservoir of information and wisdom.

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But it's Taking that knowledge and
information and the ones and zeros, right,

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the, the stuff that is factual, right?

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And then really helping you dive in and
applying it to your specific values.

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You not only your set of facts and
circumstances, as we say in every episode,

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but your values what's most important
to you in life versus someone else.

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And, and that just is different for every.

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Ed Slott: And it's, you know, in many
of the programs that we did, many of

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these episodes, I pointed out that
there's a generation between you and I.

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So we have different perspectives,

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Jeffrey Levine: Right.

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Mine is correct and yours is not.

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Ed Slott: That's where you are.

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Uh, you see in 30 years if you still wanna
maintain that house, but maybe it will.

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Jeffrey Levine: I like the idea of
having the place where everybody comes

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to for holidays and get togethers.

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Have a nice place like that.

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You know, it, it sounds like,
uh, one of those Hallmark movies.

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That's, that's that.

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Well, that's, that's what I envision.

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You, you pretty much, pretty much have it.

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Ed, let me ask one more question
here before maybe we we start

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to, to wrap up Season one.

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Insert tear emoji right there.

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All right, so, uh, Ed emoji, you
know, is something that is like a

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picture that is, I'm just teasing.

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That's a generation.

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So the, you know, as we, as
we sit here, was there, did

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you get any specific comments?

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I know you know.

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Meet with a lot of people as you do.

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We speak with a lot of, uh,
advisors and a lot of consumers.

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Was there one particular, you know,
episode or topic that you got a lot of,

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you know, feedback on personally or any,
any specific comment and you're like,

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huh, that was, that was interesting.

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Or, or just that really stuck out to you?

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Ed Slott: Yeah.

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In the beginning we got a comment.

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I don't remember if you saw it,
but we always acknowledge in the

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beginning when the other person, you
or I made a good point, we're arguing

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one side of the debate and I'll
say, oh Jeff, that is a good point.

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But it's the other side of the
debate and people say, well, we

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wanna hear, we don't want to hear
that you agree with each other.

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We wanna hear opposite sides.

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. . 
Jeffrey Levine: That's
right, that's right.

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So we try to, you know, look
like everything else Ed you.

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You start something and you refine it
over time and hopefully here by our 19th

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episode we're, we're a little bit better
at this than we were when we started.

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And, uh, you know, for, for me, I think
the episode that stuck out for me in

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terms of feedback was episode 10 when
we talked about tax diversification.

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Ed Slott: Yes.

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That was one of the most
popular, I'm looking on the list.

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It was the third most
popular of all of them.

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Jeffrey Levine: Yeah.

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And, and, and it stuck out for me because
that was one where I really felt that

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we had a good earnest debate and I, I
actually got feedback from a number of

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people that after we had a discussion
about that, they they really reframed

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how they go about thinking about things.

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That was one of the ones where I, I felt
that we really changed some opinions or

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created, uh, a different viewpoint amongst
people where they didn't have it before.

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So to me, that's what
this is all about, right?

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Is, is not, again, that
you pointed out earlier.

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Not that the thing is right or wrong,
but that there's two sides to, to, but...

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Ed Slott: To learn from it!

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Jeffrey Levine: That's right to learn,
and that's what we set out to do.

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Ed Slott: There's so much bias stuff
out there that sometimes people hear

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what they want to hear or they're told
what they want to hear and they're

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not giving, you know, it depends who
has, is there an ulterior motive from

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the person that's telling you that.

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What I like about this is there's no such,
it's independent, objective, unbiased,

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this, these are the pros, these are the
cons, and you know, these are factors

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you have to take into account before
making a major financial decision.

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And if I just go through, so the list
of the topics we covered, I think

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almost every one of these are major
financial decisions and some of which

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you don't even get a second chance at.

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Like, should I take social
security early or not?

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Name a trust as a beneficiary.

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Should I take a pension, lump sum,
or the, uh, an annuity income stream?

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Should I buy long-term care insurance?

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Every one of these titles, these
are separate episodes where

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you can gain a lot of insight.

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Should I use a Roth IRA or life insurance?

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Should I pay off debt before I retire?

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Should I use a Roth IRA or
529 plan to save for college?

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That was interesting.

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Many people don't look at Roth IRAs
as a a education funding vehicle.

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Uh, should I own maybe
in , should I own cryptocurrency?

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Maybe we'll wait on that.

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I, in my retirement account,
uh, was that before or after

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the crash we had that episode?

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I don't even remember.

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Jeffrey Levine: I, I think
maybe like during the crash.

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Yeah, it was, uh, yeah.

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You know, there was just a lot of
ground covered this season and.

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You know, I guess Ed now would be a
good time to, uh, to, to let people

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know the, the good news, at least
we hope you would find it to be good

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news, is that The Great Retirement
Debate has been renewed for season two.

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Yes.

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We've, we've got approval to go.

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Of course, when I say it's been renewed
and we have approval, basically, Ed, you

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and I said, hey, we'll  do this again.

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Like it was, it was,
uh, it was, it was fun.

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We had a good time doing it.

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Ed Slott: Things change too.

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Like we did that two part series on secure
2.0 that wasn't on the, uh, blackboard

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or, uh, planning when we started this.

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That, that's right.

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But a lot of people were asking about it
and we took a different spin there rather

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than pro or con, we said deal or no deal.

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Which provisions are good, we're more
useful, less useful, more impactful.

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So we'll be doing things like that.

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As laws or changes develop, and
they're always changing these things.

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Look at the secure 2.0, there are
provisions going out for 10 years.

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Do you really think that any of
those provisions or many of them

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will hold for the full 10 years?

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I don't think so.

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I think we'll see lots more changes.

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Jeffrey Levine: I, one thing that
we can almost always bet on Ed is,

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is, is change, especially, you know,
with a divided Congress, or I should

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say divided political parties.

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You know, one party gets in
and their agenda's completely

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different than the other.

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As soon as they have
control, they pass laws.

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Uh, you know, and, and you know,
we focus on tax policy, Ed.

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Which is, you know, we, we look
at some other things, but we

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focus primarily on tax policy.

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And, and that is different than just
about everything else because of the

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special congressional rule, um, or the
senate rule on reconciliation, right?

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You can do things with a simple
majority in the Senate for taxes

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that you can't do for, for just about
all other types of major issues.

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And so that just means that there's
more likely to be changes here.

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But hey, it's, it's more fodder,
it's more, uh, it, it's more topics

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for a potential or not a potential,
but it's more topics for season

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two of the great retirement debate.

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And you know, as we've talked,
Ed, we, we've got a couple of

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surprises . Up our sleeves here.

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We won't, uh, we won't reveal them yet.

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You'll have to tune in.

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This'll, this'll be our
big cliffhanger, Ed.

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Yep.

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I mean that I, you could see, I,
I, I feel that people are sitting

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on the edges of their seats.

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Uh, I think as you mentioned before, we,
we got on and started recording , Ed, this

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will be our, our big who Shot JR moment.

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Like what will they do for season two?

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Same, same level of interest i, I'm sure.

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Ed Slott: And Jeff, how would
you even know who shot JR?

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How old were you even alive then?

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Jeffrey Levine: I, uh, Nick at night
when I, I think that might be the answer.

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You know, when they, when they show
the oldies or something like that?

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Ed Slott: Yeah.

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But the bottom line is, the reason
we're doing this is this, most of

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people's savings, that's called
the Great Retirement Debate.

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Most of people's savings are sitting
in tax deferred accounts, IRAs.

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401ks and taxes will be the single
biggest factor that will eventually

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separate you from your, uh,
from a decent retirement or not.

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You know, the decisions you make will
be the determining factor of how much

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of your saved retirement funds you get
to keep and how much goes to Uncle Sam.

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So hopefully these programs help you
have more, keep more, and pass more

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00:19:08,889 --> 00:19:12,794
on of your hard-earned money, you can
only keep when it comes to retirement

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savings, what you can keep after taxes.

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Every dollar you save in taxes is
another dollar in your bank account.

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You can save a fortune over a
good lifetime of planning in

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taxes, and that will make a
difference in your life and beyond.

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So that's what we hope to
continue in our next season.

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Jeffrey Levine: Yeah, and,
and it bears reminding.

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You know, while, while we didn't
necessarily have a debate today,  one

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00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,314
thing that regardless of our, our
different or same viewpoints that we

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always agree on, is the fact that whenever
you have a big financial decision, like

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any of these, any of these questions
that we discussed this season, whether

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it's should I name a trust as my
beneficiary when to take Social security,

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have a Roth or not, should I downsize.

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It's best to talk through these
. Decisions with a independent tax or

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financial advisor so that you can
understand both sides of the issue.

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Understand the pluses and the
minuses, the benefits, the drawbacks,

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the advantages, the disadvantages.

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Insert your words of choice here,
but to understand what it means for

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you and your family, and that is
something we continue to agree on.

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We hope that we can continue to
bring you more valuable information

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and insights in season two.

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00:20:27,940 --> 00:20:31,660
And, uh, Ed, you know, when we, when
we set out to start this, I thought

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we'd have a lot of fun doing it
and, uh, and, and I, I won't speak

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00:20:35,535 --> 00:20:37,570
for you, but I will just say I did.

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00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,225
I had a lot of fun this season
and I can't wait for season two.

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00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:41,260
Ed Slott: Me too.

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So onward and upward.

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Jeffrey Levine: We'll see you next
season on The Great Retirement Debate.

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00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:49,850
Outro: Jeffrey Levine is Chief Planning
Officer for Buckingham Wealth Partners.

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00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:53,090
This podcast is for informational and
educational purposes only, and should

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00:20:53,090 --> 00:20:56,389
not be construed as specific investment
accounting, legal or tax advice.

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00:20:56,419 --> 00:20:59,330
Certain information mentioned may
be based on third party information,

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00:20:59,330 --> 00:21:02,179
which may become outdated or
otherwise superseded without notice.

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00:21:02,209 --> 00:21:05,449
Third party information is deemed to
be reliable, but it's accuracy and

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00:21:05,449 --> 00:21:06,889
completeness cannot be guaranteed.

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00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,040
The topic discussed in corresponding
arguments are those of the speakers

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00:21:10,220 --> 00:21:13,010
and may not accurately reflect
those of Buckingham Wealth partners.