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Narrator: You're listening to
the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas, and learning,
or the SKIL framework.

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Dan Schawbel: During COVID,
there was a 300% or more

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increase in digital scales. Why?
Because with people working

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remote, you needed those digital
skills in order to continue to

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work. With these new ways of
working, it impacts what skills

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are more or less important and
things are changing really fast.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to the
Humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm

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Eveline Oehrlich, Chief Research
Officer at DevOps Institute. Our

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podcast title today is "Tips
from an Expert: Essential

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Reasons for Upskilling.
Upskilling, reskilling,

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continuous learning, training,
are really really hot topics and

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we at DevOps Institute have done
some significant work in this

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topic area for the last five
years. And while I am knee deep,

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or actually I should say neck
deep in the research for the

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upcoming 2023 upskilling it
report. I am thrilled to have

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with me an expert, then
Chevelle. Hey, Dan, how are you?

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Dan Schawbel: So happy to be
here with you.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Excited, I'm
thrilled looking at your bio.

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I'm really honored to be with
you on this podcast because I

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know you talk to a lot of famous
people. So let me give our

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listeners a little bit of a
review or an overview who Dan

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is. So he is a New York Best
Times bestselling author and the

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managing partner of Workplace
Intelligence, which is an award

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winning thought leadership and
research agency focused on the

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world of work. He is the Best
Selling Author of Speaker Your

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Books Back to Human, Promote
Yourself, and Me to That Oh, I

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love that title. Through his
company. Dan has led over 60

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research studies with major
brands including Amazon, Oracle

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to Lloyd, American Express, and
We Work. He is also hosting

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himself a podcast he calls it
it's The Five Questions Podcast,

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where he interviews world class
humans like Natalie Portman,

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Richard Branson, Condoleezza
Rice, Reed Hastings, again,

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thank you so much for being with
us. His Workplace Intelligence

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Weekly, LinkedIn Newsletter is
one of the most read in his

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industry, with over 380,000
subscribers. And over 180,000

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students have taken his LinkedIn
learning course on leadership,

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management and hybrid working,
then, I just suggested to both

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of my daughters to take one of
your courses in LinkedIn. So

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hopefully, they will follow my
advice. Again, welcome for being

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with us today.

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Dan Schawbel: So happy to be
here, and what a really

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important relevant topic.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So let's
drive, dive into it right away.

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And just to share with you, Dan,
our listeners are folks in IT,

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such as DevOps folks,
developers, IT operations, site

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reliability engineers, security,
folks, technologists, and

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practice practitioners. But we
also have leaders. And we might

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have in sometimes do get some C
level folks on our call on our

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podcast. And I think we also
sometimes get folks outside of

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business, in it in the other
areas of an organization. And

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just again, our recent, as I
mentioned earlier, upskilling. I

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team Sherway. So showed us a
variety of challenges around

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skill gaps, which continue. And
we found that the biggest skill

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gaps actually using the roles of
the developer in IT operations,

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and in a leadership, and again,
for those who are listening in

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look for the upcoming report.
But then I would love to hear

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your thoughts on the skill gap
topic, we read it everywhere.

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Are we ever going to see a
better balance between what

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skilled individuals we have? And
what do we need?

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Dan Schawbel: I think the top
three biggest workplace trends

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right now are the skills gap and
labor shortage. Both of them are

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intertwined course because if
you can't find people with the

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right skills, you can't fill
jobs, and therefore it stunts

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the corporate growth while being
in remote slash hybrid work,

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right? And everything is very
intertwined. So for instance,

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during COVID, there was a 300%
or more increase in digital

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skills. Why? Because with people
working remote, you needed those

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digital skills in order to
continue to work right. So I

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think that with these new ways
of working it impacts what

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skills are more or less
important and things are

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changing really fast. Over the
years. I've looked at kind of

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the skills gaps, what skills are
more in demand less in demand

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from a heart and soul upskill
standpoint, which we're going to

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be talking about, but one of the
things that's really been

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interesting recently, even with
kind of the economic downturn is

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there's still 11 million
unfilled jobs just in America.

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So we still have the skills gap,
despite, you know, over 100,000,

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you know, tech workers being
laid off. And if you go into

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those numbers, which is really
interesting, about 60% of tech

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workers don't even work in the
tech industry. So it's very

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interesting economic climate.
And regardless of, you know, all

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the layoffs that are happening,
there are still positions that

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companies, you know, can still
can't fail, because they can't

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find the available talent with
these skills. And one of the

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ways that companies are
augmenting this and filling

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these gaps is not even by hiring
humans, sometimes it's by using

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automation, right. And so I
think, whether it's today or in

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the future, more and more every
single year, jobs are being

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augmented by artificial
intelligence, right, like look

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at chat GPT, like more and more
people are using that were using

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chat GPT, along with human voice
to better create content now in

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a more efficient way. And so
think about these new AI

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technologies, we'll talk more
about this as well, are kind of

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offsetting some of the skills
gap and augmenting positions.

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And therefore, potentially, when
we talk about skills, we're

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talking about a revolutionary
change, whether you're an hourly

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worker or a salaried worker,
these new technologies are going

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to reshape how you work and live
and do your job. So I think that

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that is something that, you
know, we have to take seriously,

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because if a company can't find
humans to fill roles, then

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they're starting to look to
technology. And over the past

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three years during those
pandemic conditions, with that

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labor shortage that continues
till today, the investment in

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this type of technology,
multiplied more so than that, I

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think what what's really
fascinating about the skills gap

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is that companies are now
relying more on certifications,

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you know, even though they're
still relying on degrees and

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degrees are important, you know,
because they need to expand

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their talent pool in order to
recruit their jaw. A lot of

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these companies are dropping the
four year degree requirements.

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And that's been a trend for the
past maybe five or so years. So

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we call it the unorthodox hire.
And then the other thing, the

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biggest companies are doing this
l&d pledge, which I've been

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following. And you know, one of
our clients is Deloitte. And

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they just did a, a while being
pledged for 1.4 billion. Another

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client is Amazon 1.2 billion a
centers 200 million, at&t was

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actually the first to do this
from my records at 1 billion.

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And so there's been a huge
investment in this space,

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because it's not just looking at
the skills of today. But the

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skills of tomorrow, which are
driven by advancements in

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technology, and new markets that
these organizations need to get

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to. And because it's easier to
kind of rescale and retrain and

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upscale people who are current
workers, rather than pay more

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money to hire external workers,
which also takes more time

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hiring internally takes a
shorter amount of time. And one

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of the best examples during
COVID, which I thought was

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fascinating and brilliant was
from Verizon. So what they did

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was because of COVID, a lot of
the retail stores shut down. And

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therefore all those sales reps
within those retail stores could

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have been unemployed. But what
they did was they retrain them

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to be call center employees,
because they were getting way

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more of an uptick from the call
center. So basically, they see a

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ton of money by week, retraining
and rescaling their current

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workforce for jobs that were
more in demand. At that time, of

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course, things have kind of
shifted back a bit with people,

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you know, going back and being
sales reps, but at the time

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again, you know, it's a shift in
labor. And the other thing too,

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what I saw, which I thought was
really interesting is

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industries, sharing talent,
meaning like a, a clothing

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retail store that wasn't doing
well and had too many employees,

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basically helping and partnering
with, you know, a pharmacy to

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bring those skills and that
talent over to them because they

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needed that work, again, non
competitive, but kind of this

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new thing that I had never seen
before. And then the reason why

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these persist is really, because
there is also a disconnect

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between our education system and
the needs of organizations. So

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you know, it's very hard for
education to kind of stay

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relevant and pump out, you know,
students that have the right

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skills at the right time, it's
hard to change that curriculum

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fast enough to keep up with
everything that's going on. So a

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lot of people graduate, and they
almost become kind of irrelevant

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in that market after graduation.
So they're paying all this

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money, and then they're
developing skills that might not

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be as relevant. So more of the
need is coming on companies,

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companies, in my opinion, to
becoming the post secondary

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universities. So again, like
with that investment, like I

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said, you know, over a billion
dollars of many of these

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companies, they're taking on a
lot of the slack, a lot of

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teachers who have left the
education system are now

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becoming curriculum designers at
companies. So that's a huge

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shift to right burn. They're
burned out in the school system.

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And they're like, Well, I still
want to make money make a

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living. And then the demand for
for more l&d within companies is

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shooting up. So they're moving
into organizations to be part of

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l&d. And then from our study, we
just did a study of 1500 hourly

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workers and 1500 salaried
workers in the US with Amazon.

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And what we found was that 78%
of employees are concerned, they

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lack the skills they need, and
71% they lack education to

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advance in their careers. And so
this is this is an ongoing

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problem that is not going to be
solved this year or next. But

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it's something that we have to
all wrap our heads around.

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Eveline Oehrlich: And the great
news is that we see from our

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research that sea level and
leaders in organizations, and

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you mentioned quite a few of
them are seeing this finally,

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and I want to say a hallelujah,
right? Because that's really

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most important to that. You've
highlighted quite a few things

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here, which fantastic, I would
love to dive in deeper. But I

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have another question, which is
something I want to ask you. So

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we do this research around these
different skill domains, human

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technical leadership skills,
process and framework skills.

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And as you mentioned automation,
because that's a big part of

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what we do in it, and I've been
in it forever, I know nothing

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else. But in terms of these
different domains, we are seeing

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a little bit of a shift from
year to year, sometimes

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automation becomes more
important than process than

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human. I think in the COVID
years, human skills were really,

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really important. This year, the
ranking is process skills,

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technical skills, then human
skills. But we also found this

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year that leadership skill and
the domain was for the first

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time the fourth highest must
have skill domain. And we'll

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elaborate more on that in the
report. We also know from our

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community, and from the work
I've done as an industry analyst

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that there are a variety of
skill gaps at the leadership

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level. So having said that,
skill gaps, leadership and

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leadership skills, what's your
reaction to this finding?

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Dan Schawbel: So I've studied
most in demand skills from hard

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and soft kill perspective, since
I believe 2013, when I did a

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study with American Express on,
you know, the most in demand and

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hardest to fill positions when
it comes to jobs, and then

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skills etc. And what I found is,
it's typically, you know, you

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know, and more recently,
actually, management skills,

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leadership skills, communication
skills, customer service, and

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sales skills. So, and again,
these all kind of blend into

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each other in a sense, right. So
like, clearly, like, if you're

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not a good communicator, it's
pretty hard to be a good

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salesperson as, as one example,
customer service again,

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community. So communication
really cuts across everything.

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So is, is typically ranked very
high. I do think that a lot of

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leaders over the past three
years were kind of burned out, a

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lot of people were in, there's a
big talk with executives that

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I'm speaking with a lot of,
especially managers, middle

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managers, kind of set up to
fail, they didn't really have

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the necessary training and and
that's led to a lot of the

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issues we have. And for the
frontline employees, that's why

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a lot of my courses really focus
on frontline managers, because

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they're underserved, from a
leadership development and

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management perspective, because,
you know, it's not like they

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went to school and learned how
to manage a hybrid or remote

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workforce, right? Or we're had
to, you know, you know, almost

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act like a therapist in the
workplace, because people are

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dealing with all these well
being mental health type

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behavioral problems. So there's
all these things that managers

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didn't really have to think
about before that are now at the

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forefront, right. Like, I always
think that everything we always

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have taken for granted in the
workforce, kind of the human

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skills, if you think of Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, is now at

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the forefront, right? Like
safety and security, like when

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we didn't really talk about that
in the past, maybe in

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warehouses, maybe in other other
types of areas where workforce

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injuries are usually higher, but
in general, we took it for

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granted, especially knowledge
workers, and now this is most of

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what we think about, you know,
if we go back to the office, do

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they have, you know, the
necessary protocols, etc. So,

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these type of conversation have
kind of risen. The way I think

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about hard and soft skills are,
you know, soft skills are

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somewhat consistent. So whether
it leadership's one or

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communications one, you know,
they're all kind of intersected

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and they're all very you we
always need them, there's always

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going to be demand for them and
those are things that are

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consistent, whereas like hard
skills, for instance, you know,

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over the past year, you know,
software development, SQL, you

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know, finance, Python, Java have
been, you know, some of the

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biggest skills you know, that
are, you know, where you know

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they're hiring the most for,
but, you know, this could change

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year over year based on news
Technology is based on, you

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know, irrelevant software
programs, all these different

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things, right. And I'm not going
to talk like, I'm the expert at

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programming languages, but I
will say that, you know, it's,

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you're more likely to see
changes in hard skills over

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time. And in the speed at which
those are going to change, it's

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going to be more rapid than soft
skills that again, are, you

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know, there's a lot of overlap.
And these are things that in

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order to kind of be a human in
society personally or

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professionally, they're
important, right, like

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leadership skills, like that's
still important in your personal

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life in a way, right. And so I
think that and communication

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skills, so I think that yeah,
hard skills a little bit more

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volatile communication skills a
little bit more consistent. And

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then the top five of the soft
skills are have been pretty

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consistent over the years, but
order has changed, but still,

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it's top five is top five, like,
these are the ones you clearly

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have to focus on. And then in
terms of upscaling, you know,

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when it comes to these type of
skills, you know, peer led

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learning, coaching, mentoring,
again, you know, a lot of

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managers are kind of set up to
fail. So the rise of, you know,

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coaching kind of programs has
been huge, there's a lot more

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companies that are kind of
tackling that right now, because

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they see that gap. But for all
levels, like oh, it's almost

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like the coaching for executives
is now something that, you know,

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managers and middle managers
have to have to get as well. And

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so I think that leadership is
very situational as well, as

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well as all the soft skills. So
in order to develop them, you

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need to, you know, be in
different situations and

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practice them and tweak to
become a better leader.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So a lot more
active than passive learning. I

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think what I want to hear you
say, is that correct?

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Dan Schawbel: And I think it's
on the individual, I think it's

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on the manager, I think it's on
mentors, and I think it's on the

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C suite. And I think, you know,
I think it's across the board.

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It's not just, it's the
individuals responsibility, but

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it's the culture, it's yes, all
these facets to make that into

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that individual a better leader,
it's not just them, like,

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because you could be a great
leader, but an organization that

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doesn't respect your leadership
qualities or promote you or

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support you, and then you're
gonna fail anyways. So I do

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00:17:15,630 --> 00:17:18,180
think that the organization
plays a big role.

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00:17:18,180 --> 00:17:21,630
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290
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Eveline Oehrlich: I mean, I've
been if I think back of my

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00:17:48,660 --> 00:17:53,490
career, I have been in a very
large technology company in it

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at the time coming out of the
University with a Master's and

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really I had that active
learning by being a leader being

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coached by another leader, that
was really quite, quite

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fantastic. And that's many, many
years ago. And I don't want to

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say what year because it will
date me, and we'll just

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continue. Thank you. Those were
great ideas. Now. We also found,

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we every year, we ask, Where are
folks relative to the upskilling

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00:18:21,780 --> 00:18:24,480
programs, and you mentioned that
there is a significant amount of

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investment. We see companies
like Deloitte, for example, or

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ServiceNow, those are some
companies in our space have done

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or Infosys is another one, they
have implemented great programs

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00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:41,700
to upskill and rescale. But we
also see that there is a

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challenge for many
organizations, and this is

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within our research, they're
stuck somewhere in their

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00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:49,890
assessment state. They're
assessing their programs, and

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they're not getting them over
the hump to actually get them

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00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:59,910
out. Right. And so in this, this
economic condition we're in and

315
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:03,600
it is a challenge, right? What
do you see relative to the

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economic conditions in terms of
the budgets and the plans for

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00:19:07,410 --> 00:19:11,850
upskilling program development?
Will the efforts continue? Will

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00:19:11,850 --> 00:19:15,480
they sustain? Will they slow
down? What's your crystal ball?

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00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:17,280
Say, when you look into that,
then,

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00:19:17,970 --> 00:19:20,693
Dan Schawbel: You know, a lot of
it depends on competing for

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00:19:20,753 --> 00:19:24,128
talent and where the gaps are.
So a company that has more

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00:19:24,187 --> 00:19:27,562
unfilled positions that's, you
know, struggling right now

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00:19:27,621 --> 00:19:31,174
that's, you know, trying to
compete in their market, they're

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00:19:31,233 --> 00:19:34,964
more likely to make those type
of investments and acquisitions.

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00:19:35,023 --> 00:19:38,457
But other companies maybe not so
much, and then depends on

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00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:42,128
company size, in terms of in
terms of the investment as well.

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00:19:42,188 --> 00:19:46,036
So that's always a variable. But
I do think that especially young

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00:19:46,096 --> 00:19:49,234
people are demanding more of, of
learning development

329
00:19:49,293 --> 00:19:52,550
opportunities and career
advancement, you know, as they

330
00:19:52,609 --> 00:19:56,399
always have, right, but I think
well, one of the things we asked

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00:19:56,458 --> 00:20:00,011
in the Amazon study was, you
know, how does this impact your

332
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willingness to stay within an
organization relief right and

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00:20:03,623 --> 00:20:07,412
74% of millennials and Gen z's,
are likely to quit this year due

334
00:20:07,471 --> 00:20:11,202
to a lack of skill development
opportunities. So clearly, like,

335
00:20:11,261 --> 00:20:14,873
you know, younger people, and
we've seen this over time, too,

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00:20:14,932 --> 00:20:18,426
the younger you are, the more
likely you are to demand more

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00:20:18,485 --> 00:20:22,038
learning and development, you
know, initiatives and programs

338
00:20:22,097 --> 00:20:25,768
or curriculum, right, because
you're just starting out in your

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00:20:25,827 --> 00:20:29,143
career, you're just thirsty to
learn as much as you can.

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00:20:29,203 --> 00:20:32,755
Whereas, typically, again, you
know, this, you know, this is

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00:20:32,815 --> 00:20:36,308
not for everyone. But you know,
if you're, when you're much

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00:20:36,367 --> 00:20:39,920
older in the workforce, you're
probably you're probably more

343
00:20:39,979 --> 00:20:43,414
settled and your job, you're
maybe a leader, you know, you

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know, so you might not be doing
the day to day work. So that's

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just how it's been. And in terms
of offerings that we looked at,

346
00:20:51,052 --> 00:20:54,368
basically found that these
employees, not just Gen Z and

347
00:20:54,427 --> 00:20:58,099
millennials, but all employees
say that they really benefit or

348
00:20:58,158 --> 00:21:01,711
they could really benefit from
these Allen l&d programs that

349
00:21:01,770 --> 00:21:05,026
their company's currently
offering. But they don't have

350
00:21:05,086 --> 00:21:08,698
access to those programs like
they wish they did. And so some

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00:21:08,757 --> 00:21:12,428
of those programs include free
or partial coverage of tuition,

352
00:21:12,487 --> 00:21:16,336
training programs in other areas
of the business, because there's

353
00:21:16,395 --> 00:21:19,652
been a huge push for the
adaptable workforce and moving

354
00:21:19,711 --> 00:21:22,257
horizontally, not just
vertically within an

355
00:21:22,317 --> 00:21:25,336
organization, and then
networking opportunities. So

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00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:28,534
just about about half of
employees have access to all

357
00:21:28,593 --> 00:21:32,264
three of those. So, you know,
employees recognize that this is

358
00:21:32,324 --> 00:21:35,876
beneficial. They don't have as
much access to it, maybe it's

359
00:21:35,936 --> 00:21:39,192
because of seeing lack of
seniority, which kind of goes

360
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against the whole thing of
everything I just told you,

361
00:21:42,508 --> 00:21:46,298
right? Because if, you know, by
the time you have seniority, you

362
00:21:46,357 --> 00:21:49,969
might not want them as much,
right? So I think that there's a

363
00:21:50,028 --> 00:21:53,463
disconnect there. And it just
shows you there is a lack of

364
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preparation in college. And we
had studied that for years and

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00:21:57,193 --> 00:22:00,923
years and years, we interviewed
people as young as 16 years old

366
00:22:00,983 --> 00:22:04,535
to kind of look at that, and
their careers prospects and how

367
00:22:04,595 --> 00:22:08,088
they saw the world. So I do
think that I do think that that

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00:22:08,147 --> 00:22:11,819
there, there's a gap in learning
between college and employer.

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And I think there's a gap
between employer and employee,

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especially entry level employ in
terms of the skills they need

371
00:22:18,983 --> 00:22:22,181
and the access to the
curriculum. And the the need for

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00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,674
this is going to continue to
increase, I think is going to

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00:22:25,734 --> 00:22:29,286
get to the government level,
because it's, it's kind of that

374
00:22:29,346 --> 00:22:32,721
dire. So I do think that
governments will have to make an

375
00:22:32,780 --> 00:22:36,510
investment in their population,
so that they have those skills,

376
00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:40,122
because again, like what we're
going to eventually face year

377
00:22:40,182 --> 00:22:43,379
over year is more technology
permeating our lives, and

378
00:22:43,438 --> 00:22:46,813
therefore the elimination
partially or fully of jobs, and

379
00:22:46,873 --> 00:22:50,544
therefore, the need to upskill
and retrain the population, not

380
00:22:50,603 --> 00:22:54,630
just employers retraining their
their employees is going to be huge.

381
00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:58,170
Eveline Oehrlich: You know,
something I wanted to add at

382
00:22:58,170 --> 00:23:01,590
this point is we have a lot of
ambassadors, we have over 200

383
00:23:01,590 --> 00:23:04,380
Ambassadors, I think today who
are volunteers who help us on

384
00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:07,800
content and training and doing
all kinds of things. And some of

385
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:13,050
them actually are engaged in
coaching and taking the

386
00:23:13,050 --> 00:23:16,710
knowledge over to universities
and schools and things like

387
00:23:16,710 --> 00:23:19,740
that. It's quite honorable to
see those folks. I just wanted

388
00:23:19,740 --> 00:23:25,500
to point that out. But the the
points you made, relative to how

389
00:23:25,950 --> 00:23:30,360
folks are maybe not necessarily
having access and so on is kind

390
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:35,040
of a lead into my next question.
We found that in many cases,

391
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:40,110
when we asked about upskilling,
programs that are service taker

392
00:23:40,110 --> 00:23:44,610
said, There is no time of course
in it, that's always the top

393
00:23:44,610 --> 00:23:47,460
issues are we need to solve a
problem, we need to get the code

394
00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:51,720
out we need whatever, right?
Close that cybersecurity hole

395
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,500
which just opened up, whatever.
But there was also no budget and

396
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:59,160
there's no leadership approval,
which are, unfortunately, still

397
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,060
the top issues for the folks
we've surveyed, as I said, and

398
00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:06,300
we've seen a significant
percentage of people also say

399
00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:09,960
that they invest their own time
and money into upskilling. And

400
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,100
rescaling. So you've alluded to
those already. But I want your

401
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:17,850
advice for our listeners, those
who are in the spots where they

402
00:24:17,850 --> 00:24:21,540
say, I don't have budget, my
leadership does not approve, I

403
00:24:21,540 --> 00:24:25,440
really don't have time, and I
really don't want to invest my

404
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,440
own money. What should these
folks do? Any advice?

405
00:24:29,670 --> 00:24:31,440
Dan Schawbel: You know, you got
to find that this is where it

406
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,440
gets tough, right? Because I was
trying to think of advice for

407
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,250
employees, but my real advice is
for employers. And the reality

408
00:24:38,250 --> 00:24:41,250
is you have to make time you
have to do the budget. You have

409
00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:44,220
to do the mentoring, you have to
you know, have the company

410
00:24:44,220 --> 00:24:48,300
invest in maybe a portal, you
know, that has a curriculum for

411
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:51,030
them to take just something
where they can get those skills.

412
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,600
And so my advice is mostly for
the employers because if an

413
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,960
employee doesn't you know, is
not able to have time they you

414
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,260
know, not everyone wants to
sacrifice their way And, and

415
00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:04,920
obviously, the demands of their
job are really high, then the

416
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,360
employers have to give and build
in skill development as part of

417
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:13,770
their work day. And instead of
having the employee pay for it,

418
00:25:13,770 --> 00:25:18,600
because again, once the economy
changes, again, part of what the

419
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,620
organizations compete on is not
just compensation or health care

420
00:25:22,650 --> 00:25:25,200
or flexibility, but also
learning and development

421
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,030
opportunities, especially for
the younger generations. So I do

422
00:25:30,030 --> 00:25:33,270
think that organizations need to
focus on creating a culture of

423
00:25:33,270 --> 00:25:35,610
learning, I call it like a
culture of shared learning where

424
00:25:35,610 --> 00:25:39,210
people are organically mentoring
and supporting each other, and

425
00:25:39,210 --> 00:25:43,200
then have have the leaders I
think, leaders, because again,

426
00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:45,540
the higher up you go, the less
likely you are to take these

427
00:25:45,540 --> 00:25:49,470
classes and kind of upskill I
think leaders, you know, should

428
00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:52,920
build in time to become better
leaders, like you identified

429
00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:56,700
that leadership is a skill
that's really needed right now.

430
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,120
And therefore, I think leaders
need to take these courses and

431
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:02,910
kind of get educated and
whatnot, and maybe go to

432
00:26:02,910 --> 00:26:05,940
executive to executive ed
classes or whatever they need to

433
00:26:05,940 --> 00:26:09,420
do, that's going to work best in
how they, how they specifically

434
00:26:09,420 --> 00:26:12,600
learn to advance become better
leaders, because then that's

435
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,750
going to signal that learning
is, is something culturally,

436
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:19,380
that's okay. And then, you know,
obviously, having the budget and

437
00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:22,890
the support is going to be
important for getting employees

438
00:26:22,890 --> 00:26:27,090
involved to follow suit. So I do
think the other way I've seen a

439
00:26:27,090 --> 00:26:31,440
lot of organizations handle this
is to show learning paths to

440
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,380
promotion, and advancement
through skills. So just say,

441
00:26:34,380 --> 00:26:36,720
Hey, if you learn these skills,
this is what's keeping you from

442
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,650
getting more money or to get a
promotion or or title. So if you

443
00:26:40,650 --> 00:26:43,470
learn these skills, by taking
these courses and practicing

444
00:26:43,470 --> 00:26:46,440
this at work, you're more you're
you know, you're set up to

445
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,650
advance, I think that's
something that can be very, very

446
00:26:49,650 --> 00:26:50,370
useful as well.

447
00:26:51,330 --> 00:26:53,280
Eveline Oehrlich: One of the
things we've been, I want to

448
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,730
say, I don't want to say
batching. But discussing in the

449
00:26:56,730 --> 00:26:59,700
leadership team at DevOps
Institute is the ROI of

450
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:03,150
upskilling. So that we can
actually share some details with

451
00:27:03,660 --> 00:27:07,620
those folks who don't step up to
the plate and allow and enable

452
00:27:07,620 --> 00:27:11,340
their employees. So that's some
work to come. But I know we have

453
00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:13,950
a few minutes left, and I have
two more questions for you. The

454
00:27:13,950 --> 00:27:17,340
first one is human skills, you
call them soft skills, I call

455
00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:19,800
them human skills doesn't really
matter. Everybody knows what

456
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:25,170
we're talking about, cannot be
certified. But how have you seen

457
00:27:25,170 --> 00:27:28,170
others? How have you seen folks
to improve their human skills?

458
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,950
Besides, you said, practicing
and having coaches, but on the

459
00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:36,150
human side? It's a little bit
difficult, right? Like, I could

460
00:27:36,150 --> 00:27:39,750
not step up. I couldn't imagine
some of my colleagues step up

461
00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:43,440
and say, Hey, can you help me on
some of those human skills? Any

462
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,580
ideas? You have?

463
00:27:45,690 --> 00:27:49,440
Dan Schawbel: Yes, I did. So I
think the best way to build

464
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,210
human skills is for people to
just have more conversations. So

465
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,810
for instance, my human skills,
even for doing interviews, years

466
00:27:57,810 --> 00:28:01,380
ago, weren't that strong. But
you know, after 3000,

467
00:28:01,410 --> 00:28:06,090
interviews, you know, having an
organic conversation within a

468
00:28:06,090 --> 00:28:09,840
podcast format, or any other
format becomes much easier

469
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,990
because of experience and
comfort, doing it many, many

470
00:28:12,990 --> 00:28:16,200
times. And then, you know,
learning from other people

471
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,570
watching other interviews and
other people how they

472
00:28:18,570 --> 00:28:21,960
communicate, and then kind of
adjusting to make my

473
00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:26,220
communication style, you know,
better. So I do think that

474
00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:29,400
stepping outside of your comfort
zone, continuing to practice put

475
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,820
yourself in as many situations
where you can practice these

476
00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:36,270
soft skills, or as you say,
human skills, making it a

477
00:28:36,270 --> 00:28:40,020
priority for you getting
feedback from other people, you

478
00:28:40,020 --> 00:28:43,650
know, after meeting Was I too
aggressive? How was my tone? I

479
00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:46,680
was my body language, should I
communicate this effectively?

480
00:28:46,830 --> 00:28:50,040
You know, it's asking those type
of questions to solicit feedback

481
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,790
from your manager that can be
very helpful. observing others,

482
00:28:53,790 --> 00:28:56,880
like I was saying, you know, if
you want to, you know, you know,

483
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,120
Google like the top best
communicators, and then watch,

484
00:29:00,150 --> 00:29:03,360
you know, YouTube videos of
them, and see how they watch a

485
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,370
TED Talk. For instance, they are
trained to be good

486
00:29:05,370 --> 00:29:08,790
communicators, especially at the
annual conference. So you get a

487
00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:10,650
sense of, oh, this is what
they're doing. Right? This is

488
00:29:10,650 --> 00:29:13,620
how they tell stories. So it's,
I think it's observing, it's

489
00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:16,140
putting yourself in the
situation, getting a mentor or

490
00:29:16,140 --> 00:29:18,570
getting feedback from your
manager, I think all of those

491
00:29:18,570 --> 00:29:19,950
can really help you be better.

492
00:29:20,730 --> 00:29:22,560
Eveline Oehrlich: Great ideas
that made me just remember

493
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,230
something we used to do at the
same company I was talking

494
00:29:25,230 --> 00:29:30,270
earlier about with the
Toastmasters. For those

495
00:29:30,270 --> 00:29:34,500
sessions, we it was actually
more for improving our public

496
00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:39,480
speaking. And many of us got up
at really early to do that

497
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:43,260
outside of our day to day job,
but it helped us because we

498
00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:47,280
actually opened up almost like
to the folks who were listening

499
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,760
in to give me feedback on all of
those things, and then had to do

500
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,300
with human skills. And I think,
I think back to those times,

501
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:58,380
some of those were painful,
particularly if you had to get

502
00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:03,000
some feedback. You didn't like,
but I for myself did a lot of

503
00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:07,290
Galala learning there anything.
Anything I got there was great.

504
00:30:07,950 --> 00:30:11,220
All right, we're almost to the
end, give us a short summary of

505
00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:13,950
the type of work which is done
at Workplace Intelligence

506
00:30:13,950 --> 00:30:16,710
because I know you are there a
lot. Did you do a lot of work

507
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:20,220
there? Give us just a quick
like, two or three lines of what

508
00:30:20,250 --> 00:30:21,450
type of work do you guys do?

509
00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:24,810
Dan Schawbel: Yeah, so the type
of work we do is we work on big

510
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,130
research projects, and campaigns
focus on every single workplace

511
00:30:29,130 --> 00:30:35,190
topic, including upscaling. So
we've done 66 So far with, you

512
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:39,570
know, another five to seven more
coming this year. So it's a ton

513
00:30:39,570 --> 00:30:43,290
of research goal is to kind of
connect the dots and you know,

514
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,590
help brands tell their stories
through thought leadership

515
00:30:46,590 --> 00:30:50,250
content. Also, we have a
newsletter, like you were saying

516
00:30:50,370 --> 00:30:54,510
earlier, Workplace Intelligence
weekly on LinkedIn, you know,

517
00:30:54,510 --> 00:30:59,220
it's continues to grow. And we
again, use that as a mechanism

518
00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:03,570
to, you know, talk about
different workplace topics and

519
00:31:03,570 --> 00:31:08,550
tie them in to what's relevant
in today's society, today's

520
00:31:08,550 --> 00:31:11,820
working world. So we're always
trying to do that, you know,

521
00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:14,880
trying to think about, hey,
what's the most relevant, you

522
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,570
know, type topics, and then
working with companies to

523
00:31:18,570 --> 00:31:21,570
develop content to then link to
those topics.

524
00:31:22,350 --> 00:31:24,660
Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic. And
I have been signed up for that

525
00:31:24,690 --> 00:31:30,540
LinkedIn newsletter, and I get
it, it's part of my reading. If

526
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,990
I skip it, I miss it, because
there was always very good

527
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:36,810
things in there. So to our
listeners, I highly recommend go

528
00:31:36,810 --> 00:31:41,130
there. Okay, now I have a fun
question has nothing to do with

529
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,880
upskilling. But what do you do
for fun if you don't do your

530
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,490
research and your work or write
books?

531
00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:51,360
Dan Schawbel: Aside from this
being fun? As you can tell, I

532
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,440
love this stuff. Yeah, I mean,
you know, walks, runs,

533
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,130
traveling, you know, I'm going
to be going to Central Europe

534
00:31:59,130 --> 00:32:04,140
this year, and back to Greece
and Italy. And, you know, so I,

535
00:32:04,170 --> 00:32:06,720
you know, I like to kind of get
out there and explore the world

536
00:32:06,750 --> 00:32:12,870
and, you know, big avid reader
every day. Yeah, speak to Pete

537
00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:15,930
speaking to people practicing
those soft skills, which again,

538
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,230
helps you personally and
professionally. And yeah, and

539
00:32:19,230 --> 00:32:23,160
you know, I love listening to
music and, you know, different

540
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,120
shows on TV.

541
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:27,540
Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic. If
you make it to the southern part

542
00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:32,820
of Germany, just ring the bell.
I have a nice cup of coffee and

543
00:32:32,820 --> 00:32:36,780
adult beverage or whatever you'd
like love to take you out for

544
00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:40,590
dinner. This has been a great
conversation, then. We have been

545
00:32:40,590 --> 00:32:44,070
talking to Dan Schawbel , New
York Times bestselling author

546
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:47,340
and a managing partner of
Workplace Intelligence. Dan,

547
00:32:47,370 --> 00:32:50,580
again, thank you so much for
joining me today on Humans of

548
00:32:50,580 --> 00:32:51,870
DevOps Podcast.

549
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,550
Dan Schawbel: Thank you again,
it's a pleasure.

550
00:32:54,750 --> 00:32:56,940
Eveline Oehrlich: Humans of
DevOps podcast is produced by

551
00:32:56,940 --> 00:33:00,510
DevOps Institute. Our audio
production team includes Julia

552
00:33:00,510 --> 00:33:04,530
pape, Daniel Newman, Schultz and
Brandon Lay. I'm Humans of

553
00:33:04,530 --> 00:33:08,070
DevOps Podcast, executive
producer Eveline Oehrlich. If

554
00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:11,520
you would like to join us on a
podcast, please contact us at

555
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,280
Humans of DevOps podcast at
DevOpsInstitute.com. Boy, that's

556
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,580
a mouthful. I'm Eveline
Oehrlich, talk to you soon.

557
00:33:24,660 --> 00:33:26,760
Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the humans of

558
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,300
DevOps Podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

559
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:33,660
access to even more great
resources like this. Until next

560
00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:37,140
time, remember, you are part of
something bigger than yourself.

561
00:33:37,410 --> 00:33:38,190
You belong