Hello everyone and Welcome to another

episode of Selling Greenville your

favorite real estate podcast right here

in lovely Greenville, South Carolina, I'm

your host as always Stan McCune realtor

here in Greenville, South Carolina, and

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today I want to talk about a something

that we've talked about before but that

is really a

a big thing for me something that I'm

very passionate about

and it is nimbyism nimbyism

and some of you

will ultimately already know what this

is and in fact it was a listener to the

show that was the first person I had

ever heard use this term NIMBY or

nimby-ism

because I don't personally use a lot

of slang but this is a now has become

a very commonly used phrase over the

last several years and and it's

worth using and it's worth discussing

and I want to discuss why the nimbies

are wrong and I'm going to Define what

nimbyism is here in just a second but I

just want to kind of set the stage to

begin with

and what that stage is is that

everything these days has gotten

political and real estate is no

exception everything in real estate has

become political and when you're talking

about real estate and politics there is

one group that is by far the loudest

group in the room

when you have a group of political real

estate people

or even just people that are concerned

about real estate in general or

concerned about their house in general

and they have any sorts of political

beliefs at all there is one group that

is louder than the rest and that is the

nimbies what are or who are the nimbies

NIMBY stands for it's an acronym

that stands for not in my backyard not

in my backyard and it refers to an

increasingly large and Powerful group of

people who want to limit and in many

cases stop all development near them

and in some cases they're they're like

anti-development in general but

generally speaking they they're

primarily just concerned about

development near them and so hence the

not in my backyard idea I'm okay with

more houses going up in this part of the

country or in this part of the city or

in this part of the county just don't do

it down the street for me I don't want

it I don't want new housing or new

commercial real estate or new real

estate new development happening in

General near where I live and in an area

like Greenville

the nembis are particularly prominent

due to how much development we've seen

in recent years in Greenville County in

Greenville city and some of the

surrounding counties

we have seen a lot of development

like there's no denying that

and and so as a result that brings the

nimbies out right they are

anti-development they don't even by the

way

NIMBY is is a more derisive term

right they don't identify as nimbies and

a lot of them don't even know what that

acronym stands for but they are

Loosely defined they they all have the

the same mindset and they tend to have

the same way of going about

wanting to change things

so that's why they have been kind of

lumped together as this somewhat

homogeneous group

now I mentioned before on here on the

show that last year's 2022's local

elections were a major win for the

nimbies because they got multiple

anti-development people into Greenville

County Council or at least people that

ran on anti-development platforms and if

you go to a different than if

sorry if you go to a County Council or a

city council or a proposed rezoning

hearing or a meeting you will

sometimes and honestly frequently see

rooms packed with loud angry people

waiting to stop any and all development

near them I've even heard stories of

nimby's mobilizing to follow Pickens

County council members home to harass

them at their homes and in public like

it's they're completely unhinged like

they are so passionate it's almost like

a cultic like passion they're so

passionate about this that there will

going to harass County council members

in a rural County like Pickens

you've never heard anything like this

I've never heard anything like this

people that I know that have been in

politics for decades have not heard of

anything like this so this is a very

very like I said loud group very

passionate group and in my opinion they

are wrong however I do want to say that

they aren't just acting like this for no

reason and I'm going to discuss their

reasons and why I think that their

reasons are wrong

now I'm not saying that all of their

concerns are completely to be thrown

out the window as if they have no

concerns listen one of the things that

we talk about in Greenville all the time

is smart growth right growth has to be

smart obviously you can't just grow at

this exponential Pace forever and not

give thought to what does this mean for

our economy what does this mean for our

infrastructure but the concern that the

nimbies have is that that smart growth

isn't actually happening and on that

point I think we can have a bit of a

disagreement but I'd like to discuss

that's like their broad concern but I

like to discuss some of the specific

concerns that I have with the nimbies

and why I or some of the specific

concerns that The nimbies Have and why I

disagree with them for the most part

on those concerns so let's start with

the one that I hear the most often

we don't this is in quotes we don't want

to be the next Charlotte I can't tell

you how many times I've heard this we

don't want Greenville to turn into the

next Charlotte now this is a legitimate

concern from one standpoint I saw a list

recently that basically found a way to

quantify the most poorly designed cities

in all of the US and Charlotte was the

worst of the worst design cities in the

entire United States

so it's understandable that people would

not want to be like Charlotte which grew

too fast and without a good plan in

place for how to grow smartly but listen

it's not like Charlotte went from a

small Charming City like Greenville to a

large city overnight Charlotte has been

a large city for quite some time what

happened was that Charlotte went from a

medium large city to a really really

large city over the course of several

decades and didn't handle that growth

well this is not what we're seeing

Greenville Greenville is a small City by

every metric about 75 000 is the

population of Greenville city that is a

small City by today's standards by

every metric

and we simply couldn't become a

charlotte-like city anytime soon I mean

look back at Census Data how big was

Charlotte in the 1940s when Charlotte

was way smaller than is now Charlotte

back then had a population of a hundred

thousand which by the way again you have

to compare apples to apples a hundred

thousand population in 1940 is a much

bigger population than it is now right

for a for a city

so that was a a decent sized city

back then and in comparison Greenville

is a city of 75 000 so it's even smaller

than Charlotte was back then and that

was 80 years ago Greenville has a long

way to go before it's going to look like

Charlotte look at the photos of

Charlotte in the 1940s you can you can

Google them and and look them up there's

some cool there's some cool black and

white photography and whatnot from the

40s of Charlotte and you can see right

away that it's bigger than Greenville

looks more comparable to like a

Nashville back in the 1940s and it was

also laid out in a way that really set

it up for a substantial commercial

development just the way it was laid out

you could see okay if they want to

expand this they can very easily whereas

Greenville on the other hand is not set

up this way it would take unbelievably

massive changes to the infrastructure to

see commercial development that's

happened in Charlotte happened in

Greenville

and just to give an example

Greenville is most known for its Main

Street all of downtown Greenville flows

through its main street Charlotte is not

designed that way and so imagine

trying to build up around the the the

downtown Main Street canopy and all of

that like that that's a ludicrous idea

and even if you started to try to expand

out from there again it would be just

the way greenville's laid out I don't

see how it could happen but more

importantly that's just my opinion but

to get to get away from my opinion we

already know what the Greenville City

and Greenville County councils have in

their Master plans and that they aren't

going to allow this type of development

to happen you guys can go look at it

those Master plans are right out there

they are public knowledge they are

public record you can go look at it they

are not planning and not in any way

going to allow a charlotte-like

period of growth over the next few

decades granted the master plan is not

made to go out several decades but but

for the the current term and remember

more people are getting into office that

are nimby's on the local level so

they're certainly not going to create

new master plans that overturn that and

and create less development we are just

not going to see Greenville turn into

Charlotte that's a straw man argument in

my opinion I don't like it

nobody needs to be worried about that

so the long story short

for this argument is that people use

this argument because they found out

that a developer wants to build 250

homes in Simpsonville near their house

and they're like we don't want to be

like Charlotte a developer Building 250

homes in Simpsonville doesn't mean that

Greenville is going to become Charlotte

stop using that argument

I'm fine if you want to have an

argument about smart growth but an

argument like that is a straw man simply

designed to scare people it's

scaremongering it's bad logic don't do

it another major concern that I have is

our infrastructure is crumbling and if

there is one concern that the Nimbus

have that pretty much everyone agrees

with is that infrastructure has

struggled to keep up with developments

particularly and we've talked about this

in the past in Rural and more and lower

income more depressed areas in these

areas we commonly can see issues with

roads with sewer systems with things

like that and so

the compromise that has been

frequently trotted out

is what we call impact fees impact fees

basically when a the developer of a

community pays to improve the

infrastructure in the area that they are

building in infrastructure being

roads being sewer things of that nature

the problem with impact fees because it

sounds good right it sounds good for the

developer to come in and to and to pay

for these things right if they're the

ones that are bringing in this new

housing why don't they help to improve

the infrastructure well

the problem is for me I lean more

libertarian in my belief set and that

actually makes a lot of sense if you're

a Libertarian a fiscal libertarian this

would be a classic fiscal libertarian

solution to this problem but it's not a

perfect solution because what ends up

happening is that the impact fees

obviously increase the cost of building

which then increases the cost of buying

it's not like the developers just absorb

that cost that costs down gets baked

into the price of the development and

guess what if you pull nimby's and we've

done this in Greenville

I can't get into specifics of the

poll because it's off the Record but I

know that it's been done and here's what

happens if you pull them they always say

that housing has gotten too expensive

and that housing affordability is a

major concern for them

but then when you stop the the

building of new housing

which is what they want right they want

to stop developing at in their backyard

and you force those then who are

developing to pay more via these impact

fees guess what that does to housing it

makes the price of housing go up so the

nimbies have have no that they they

can't be happy right because they want

development to slow down or stop

particularly near them but they also

don't want housing to get more expensive

at the rate that it that it's been

growing well guess what you can't have

your cake and eat it

you you have to do one or the other

or you have to come up with more

Creative Solutions and that you just you

talk to them and they don't have those

Creative Solutions I I don't mean to

keep making fun of this this one local

politician but the idea the slogan

that was trotted out last year by one of

them we need more Parks not more

Apartments it that's just that's just

reductionistic that's reducing the

problem down to just way too simple of

an issue it's much more complex than

that

there's also a question of whether it's

fair and Equitable for those who have

lived in an area for a while to get a

free Improvement to their infrastructure

paid for by developers shouldn't

existing homeowners if they're getting

their local infrastructure improved

shouldn't they contribute something

towards that as we are having

governments more concerned about Equity

that is something to be considered

particularly you get developments in

some of these more Rural and lower

income areas that's something that needs

to be balanced out because let's say

that you're having a development that is

trying to offset gentrification that's

trying to allow people that are that are

being forced out of a part of of

Greenville or or Spartanburg or whatever

trying to allow them to stay within

their Community well guess what happens

they're they're being pushed out by

wealthier people right the people that

are causing the gentrification well if

those people that are causing a

gentrification now are saying not in my

backyard I don't want these developments

to happen I don't our infrastructure

is not good well okay I'll allow it as

long as impact fees are being paid by

the by the developers that means that

the wealthier people are now pushing the

cost burden on the poorer people that

already have the issue of gentrification

at their hands so we have an equity

problem in some of these when it

comes to some of these things that a lot

of nimby's a lot of nimbies are social

socially liberal but they don't consider

the implications of of what they're

suggesting of what they're trying to

push through in these County councils

now again I'm not disagreeing with

the infrastructure argument the road

situation in South Carolina is a problem

particularly in these lower income and

rural areas and this is common knowledge

we've done this for quite some time in

fact Nikki Haley who is now running

for president was the governor of South

Carolina introduced a gas tax years ago

I remember getting a postcard in the

mail that said fix our roads gas tax

well then she realized it was a very

unpopular thing and so she completely

reversed course and decided not to do

the gas tax but

and to be completely honest I

just want to say this that could be seen

as flip-flopping and it was

flip-flopping but she actually listened

to her constituents and I did appreciate

that about Nikki Haley was that she did

listen to the concerns that people had

and like her love her hate her

indifferent whatever

I think it's just worth saying that

that was a that was something that for

me I didn't not see that as a flaw with

her I didn't see her as a perfect

Governor by any stretch but I felt like

that was actually a strength of her

Administration not a weakness that's

very much an aside

but the gas tax did end up going

through once Governor McMaster came into

office and again the whole thing was to

fix our roads but guess what it hasn't

worked out super well I I've not heard

anyone that's like oh man look at all

these roads that were fixed by this gas

tax it hasn't happened it just you know

how these taxes work they they end up

not being used the way there's said that

they're going to be used and with

inflation being where it is and gas

being so expensive now nobody is going

to want more gas taxes and and so

again how are we going to improve our

infrastructure people are like well we

only have one choice if we're not going

to raise taxes we're going to tax the

developers with these impact fees I

don't think that those are the only

solutions we have in the past 10 years

all of these new potential revenue

streams for governments open up why not

open up the state for sports gambling

guys it's already happening I don't care

if you have a moral thing against Sports

gambling it is happening under the radar

but the state of South Carolina isn't

getting their cut of it that all of

these other states that have legalized

it are South Carolina is behind in that

why couldn't we allow for for gambling

in the state

and then devote that money towards roads

and towards infrastructure this one's

probably a little more controversial but

I'll mention anyway why not weed right I

told you I was libertarian

I don't do weed myself personally but

I don't see you know they the all of

the negative press that it got for all

of those decades back in the day so much

of it ended up just being propaganda it

ended up being wrong and you can go back

and look at that yourself but people are

smoking weed you can smell it everywhere

and I'm not just saying in Greenville

I've been in other parts of South

Carolina been in North Carolina and

Georgia Tennessee you go anywhere you

smell weed people are smoking it

illegally in the state why not make it a

regulated industry and maybe you put

limitations on it but again there are

revenue streams that could come into the

state that because South Carolina is

just a bit more old school they aren't

they aren't accepting those and so

everyone is just thinking too much in

this box of and not thinking outside the

box and thinking okay well we have only

one solution here and that is that we

need to make developers pay impact fees

not a fan if we have these other options

at our disposal

and we can potentially employ those

things so that the cost of housing

doesn't continue to go up at the rate

that it is

okay as you can tell I'm passionate

about this I'm getting my I'm

starting to feel my voice getting

scratchy but I'm not done I got more to

go here, okay

I said I wasn't gonna make fun of this

again because I've mentioned this

before on my podcast but

I've got to bring it up again

another concern we need more Parks not

more Apartments as I mentioned before

this was a campaign slogan by someone

who was elected to Greenville County

Council

and it couldn't be further from the

truth in my opinion as housing has

increased so has the cost to rent in

Greenville County the cost to rent has

gone up dramatically in recent years and

it might not make sense to someone who

has been a homeowner for a long time or

someone who comes from a background of

privilege but more apartments are

necessary to keep the cost of rent in

check it that is just the way it is that

is how we're able to keep rent in check

is by having apartments that helps to

keep rent from getting out of control in

an area with regard to Parks look we all

like Parks Greenville County is unique

because within and near Greenville city

there are a bunch of parks

north of Greenville there's Paris

Mountain State Park that's really our

only state park in the area south of

Greenville is Lake conestee nature

preserve a great free park to walk

around

that I highly recommend to

people if they want a more flat area to

to walk around it also connects with the

swamp rabbit biking trail

and of course we've got falls

park right in Greenville city right

in the heart of downtown the the

the apple of our eye when it comes to

Greenville what everyone thinks of when

they think of Greenville is Falls Park

but people in rural areas they're

just never going to have as much access

to park I don't Parks I don't care what

you say If you think we need more Parks

the people in rural areas aren't going

to get them like Greenville city has

them why because the people in the rural

areas have more land their lots are

larger and when lots are larger Parks

become less feasible to build how are

you going to build a park when everyone

in the area owns multiple Acres or maybe

even

half acre 0.75 acre lots you just look

at the if you look at the Lots in these

rural areas you realize there's just not

public land to build on to to create a

park

and there has to be public land for it

to happen

and most of the public land in

Greenville County is in city limits so

that's just the reality of the situation

greenville's done a great job of using

undevelopable land to put these parks in

it's really fantastic like Lake

conestee Nature Preserve for instance

you could not use that land for anything

because of the flooding in that area so

let's turn it into a really cool area to

walk around in and enjoy the the water

of that area so

it's just unique once you get into

these rural areas

you're not going to have more Parks

in the in the more urban areas and in

some of the Suburban areas you do have

them but you need more apartments in

those areas and and what I think really

think people are saying when they say

that they are concerned about too many

apartments is that they don't want more

Neighbors

and I get it okay it's particularly hard

for those who lived in what was a rural

area for so long is that just

Simpsonville for instance Simpsonville

was rural for so long Five Forks was

rural for so long

Greer was rural for so long not

career City but the areas of around

the the more the the areas further away

from downtown Greer

more rural for a long time people had

you know potentially great views of a

lake or or great mature trees around

them and that eventually all changed due

to the developments moving in

but development is about the future the

nimbes although they will make their

claims acting as if they are concerned

about the future are primarily focused

on the now they are not thinking about

the future we're having people moving to

Greenville at an unprecedented rate and

again where do they live

do we want more homeless

I don't think the nimbies want more

homeless the nimbies have already said

that they don't want the the cost of

housing to go up well guess what when

demand increases and Supply doesn't

increase prices go up and so that's

exactly what we're seeing

but I also think that they're just

wrong about what ends up happening in in

the instance where we have these big

developments happening I think they just

only see what they've heard these awful

stories about what it's like having you

know a big neighborhood near them

a big neighborhood is being built down

the street from where I used to live and

there was a massive backlash against the

the people that sold that land to that

developer I mean it took forever tons of

hearings for it to finally get approved

and it was approved against a lot of

vocal nimby's going to those meetings

and packing out standing room only in

some instances in those meetings even

friends of mine who aren't normally

politically active went to those

meetings to protest the development it

was shocking

non-political people got political just

to oppose development in their backyard

and guess what it happened it got

approved and the the developer had to

rework the roads to make the development

work and guess what now the main road

that cuts through that area is so much

nicer and substantially better for the

traffic than than what was there before

this is what I'm saying they improved

the infrastructure

and that those people they're never

going to have issues with those

neighbors if anything probably now

they'll see more better stores and

better commercial development popping up

in areas more accessible to them that

won't hurt them in any way it's not

going to be clearing out for us or you

know causing them to not have a lake

view or whatever the case may be it's

going to just make the area a lot better

and so the nimbies are wrong

and in the end I think we need to

consider a few things before we let our

emotions get the best of us particularly

if you're tempted with the the sin of

nimbyism

not a sin but I'm gonna call it a sin

it's a real estate sin okay we need to

consider

a few things first off what will the

next Generation our children

be able to afford what will they

actually be able to afford from a

housing standpoint in 2007 the price per

square foot was

84.76 with a median sales price of a

hundred and fifty one thousand five

hundred dollars in the final six months

of 2022 the median price per square foot

was

168.91 almost exactly double okay in 15

years and the median sales price was

more than double 342 700.

so from a price per square foot

standpoint over a 15-year span we saw a

200 percent increase even though the

Great Recession was right in the middle

of that I think it's important just to

just to caveat that but we saw a 200

increase

if prices increase 200 in the next 15

years then the average price per square

foot in 2038 will be

337.82 that's a luxury home in

Greenville currently 337 dollars a

square foot that's the luxury home by

current standards

and I mentioned that wages

haven't kept up with those increases the

median U.S wages in 2007 this is in in

the US

was 36 000

per household and the median in 2022

was 56 000 per household

nowhere near the the 200 increase

that housing saw during that period of

time in the Greenville area and I'm if I

pulled the media in South Carolina wages

between those two time periods I

wouldn't be surprised if the increase

was even less for South Carolina

so how will our kids afford housing the

only way is if we build more to increase

Supply and slow the price increases of

housing

listen housing is going to continue to

increase in our area because demand is

going to continue to increase but we

need to slow it down it can't be

increasing at this exponential rate

and the there's really a simple solution

you need to build you increase the

supply to offset the increase in demand

secondly when do you think ethically and

morally here as well I've already

alluded to this a little bit

in this show and I've talked in

previous episodes about how zoning has a

racist history the concept of zoning in

cities and counties is inherently racist

now I know that nowadays it's not

said to be used for racist reasons but

historically speaking it was used for

racist reasons to keep white and black

people segregated

well again the nimbies are oftentimes

socially liberal although they're not

limited to that

but the nimbys might not realize it

but when they push develop developments

out developers tend to then target areas

that won't push back as much right the

developers know that there's a market

they want to build

and and they need to build right for the

reasons I've already outlined and so

they get pushed out of a wealthy area

that has the ability to push them out

that has the sway with local politicians

to do that that understand this the

process and that are able to find ways

and and pull the right levers to get

that developer to to give up and to to

move out

well the developer moves on to where

what do you think where do you think the

developer then decides to Target they

decide to Target the areas that won't

push back as much guess what those areas

are they tend to be areas that don't

have as much money and so and because

the the people that aren't as wealthy

the the poorer population they don't

have the resources to push back they

don't even understand to pushback it's

just not a concern for them to this

whole idea of nimbyism like they have

much bigger concerns than that and so

what ends up happening is that

developers typically pushed out from

wealthier areas into lower income areas

and then the Fallout from this Dynamic

can result in functionally

socio-economic segregation

we're having the wealthy people pushing

out development into the poor areas

forcing poor people to continue to live

among poor people right because that's

what these developments then are are

ending up being used for is Workforce

housing and things like that and so we

result in de facto segregation happening

and I think honestly if you really

dissect it while a lot of people don't

want more neighbors is that they don't

want and I'm I'm not using this

terminology I'm saying from their

perspective they don't want the riffraff

to be around them they're concerned at

what these new neighbors are going to be

that they're not going to be the the

same quality neighbor as them again

that's not my perspective that's what

I'm saying that that a lot of these

wealthy nimbies are concerned about is

that they don't want what they perceive

to be riffraff to be near them

and that's a a major major problem at

the heart of this and so we're seeing

those racist zoning Roots rearing their

ugly head back when it comes to people

stonewalling developments

and by the way

you know it's also worth mentioning

that then when developers do end up in

these lower income areas

there might not be the the pushback

with regard to infrastructure and I and

I'm not saying that developers aren't

without their flaws

if developers aren't going to be

forced to help the the infrastructure

they're not going to do it

and these are areas that are

typically already neglected from a tax

dollar standpoint so something has to be

done

and so you do get more of these

developments without the infrastructure

improvements oftentimes and so it's

disproportionately hurting those with

a a socioeconomic status that is not

at the level of those that stonewalled

the developments in their wealthy

neighborhoods or in their wealthy parts

of the upstate

now

I do want to say I'm not saying that

everyone who opposes a development is a

racist okay I'm not saying that you guys

know that that is not my Mo

but we need to consider the consequences

of our actions and the stances that we

take we just need to consider that and

I'm not saying that every development

needs to occur to be approved not saying

that either

we we shouldn't just automatically just

say okay

Ryan Holmes wants to build a new

development okay do it approve it drb

wants to wants to do a new development

okay let it go through no there needs

there does need to be smart growth but

people that are just opposing anything

in their backyard

they need to consider the

consequences of their actions might

actually not look much different than

what the consequences of blatant racists

that that put in zoning laws to create

redlining greater segregation and things

of of that nature

not the heart but the consequences and

the consequences are still important so

in the end I believe the arguments that

the nimbys make are wrong and

short-sighted that is my personal

opinion I've argued against several of

their arguments I know that there are

more arguments this wasn't an exhaustive

list but at the same time

if you are anti-development particularly

in your area I'm still willing to talk

to you about it I'm not going to call

you names

I'm going to have a respectful argument

I'm willing to discuss it let's have a

conversation about it let's talk about

it hit me up and you can because my

contact information is in the show notes

you like that transition pretty good

my contact information is in the show

notes you can hit me up to discuss that

to discuss any of your real estate needs

because I'm a realtor here and I like to

help people find homes in the Greenville

area so please let me know if you're

listening to the show or watching it on

YouTube please do whatever you can do by

means of liking it subscribing leaving a

rating leaving a review do all of those

things hey I appreciate you guys

listening if you've gotten to the end of

this give yourself a hand this was

this is a very nice episode not

everyone's going to listen to this but I

appreciate you guys listening thank

you stay safe we will talk again next time